August 26, 2017

"Might it be that non-Southerners, for cultural reasons, simply cannot understand why it’s difficult for Southerners to execrate their ancestors, even if their ancestors did bad things?"

"That thought came back to me after listening to this amazing episode of Malcolm Gladwell’s Revisionist History podcast. It’s about country music, and what sets it apart from other American musical genres. Malcolm Gladwell is not the first person I would go to for insight into how country music works, but boy, was this great."

Writes Rod Dreher at The American Conservative in "Sad Songs." I haven't listened to Gladwell's podcast yet, but Dreher ends his column with an invitation to listen to The Band’s “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down”:
Listen especially to the third verse — the land, family, death, defeat — and know that for very many of us, that is the South. It’s not the whole South. “Strange Fruit” is also the South. But it’s one true story of the South, and if you can’t feel the tragedy and the heartbreak of a poor, proud Southern man laid low in this song, friend, I cannot help you:


I can't embed that without thinking of something I read in The New Yorker this week: "Who Owns the Internet?/What Big Tech’s monopoly powers mean for our culture," by Elizabeth Kolbert:
Consider the case of Levon Helm. He was the drummer for the Band, and, though he never got rich off his music, well into middle age he was supported by royalties. In 1999, he was diagnosed with throat cancer. That same year, Napster came along, followed by YouTube, in 2005. Helm’s royalty income, which had run to about a hundred thousand dollars a year... dropped “to almost nothing.” When Helm died, in 2012, millions of people were still listening to the Band’s music, but hardly any of them were paying for it. (In the years between the founding of Napster and Helm’s death, total consumer spending on recorded music in the United States dropped by roughly seventy per cent.) Friends had to stage a benefit for Helm’s widow so that she could hold on to their house....
Here's the album. You can still buy it.

By the way, the 3rd verse that Dreher talks about is the one with the lines: "Like my father before me, I will work the land/And like my brother above me, who took a rebel stand/He was just eighteen, proud and brave/But a Yankee laid him in his grave...." It made me think of the 140 Confederate soldiers whose nearby graves I visited the other day, after Madison's mayor, Paul Soglin, got a memorial removed. I took photographs...

P1150066

... but only later did I learn that the headstones do not mark individual graves. What's under the ground is, in fact, a mass grave. The individual stones are a later effort at imposing dignity — an effort that corresponds to the effort we are experiencing today, the withdrawal of dignity.

550 comments:

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rcocean said...

I'm really surprised that Derhner wrote this. The guy is such a "cuck". Of course, he says he's 50 y/o and the only R.E. Lee biography he's read is by Korda.

Mark said...

Lee at Antietam faced the reality of the Southern position - even badly led the Union armies were enormously more powerful, and could not really be defeated, as in damaged so much that the power relationship changed

Lee was not dumb. He knew from the start he could not defeat the Union armies. That was not the strategy. The goal was to outlast until the North said it wasn't worth it any more. It was not a bad plan. McClellan and a lot of others were ready to quit on about the fourth day of the war. And Lincoln himself knew there was a huge possibility of the North losing the will to continue.

It is much the same today.

Heywood Rice said...

Presumably, it is antiphone who knows what they really think.

You presume wrong. I only know what I think, and I think this(Dreher quoting Gladwell in the linked article) sounds like cultural identity politics:

“Basically you cannot be a successful country singer or songwriter unless you were born in the South,” he says. There are no Jews on the country list, only a couple of blacks, and no Catholics. “It’s white Southern Protestants all the way down.”

On the other hand, writers and performers of the greatest rock songs include Jews, blacks from Detroit, Catholics from New Jersey, Canadians, Brits, and more. “Rock and roll is the rainbow coalition,” he says. That diversity is why there’s so much innovation in rock and roll, says Gladwell, “but you pay a price for that.”

Anonymous said...

KittyM: You write that you miss something in these debates, namely "complexity" and that you want more "understanding" of "the details of history" but your own blog focusses solely on the perspective of the white Southerner who supports the retention of these monuments.

No, it doesn't. She has covered several perspectives on this issue.

Nowhere, as I show above, do you explore or present the views of black Southerners: how they might feel about the American history of the period that is being celebrated or at the very least memorialised in an elegiac fashion. It's their history too.

The idea that the black Southerner's perspective is somehow being ignored or suppressed (here or anywhere else) is an absurdity. Althouse isn't discussing this solely from the perspective that you obviously (based on your previous comments on this blog) think is the determinative perspective. Fine. So why don't you say something interesting about "the black perspective" that hasn't been expressed a thousand times over elsewhere?

I notice that on this subject you've been exhibiting a particular cognitive tick, woefully common these days: to wit, that if people continue to disagree with you about an issue (or are simply interested in a perspective that you consider secondary), then they either don't understand, cannot sympathize, or are not in the possession of the facts. You rolled back in here a few days ago sniffing about people still not understanding or not having any sympathy for the "black perspective". What was your evidence for this? Why, nothing more than that people weren't agreeing with you after you had told them what you thought about it.

Now sit back and think about that for a bit. Do you really not see how childish that attitude is?

I guar-on-tee, KittyM, that there is not a single poster here who does not understand, or who is incapable of sympathy with, the fact that black Americans (in general, black opinion is not monolithic) have a different, and negative perspective on this issue. They just happen to think, not only that what black Aemricans think is not the only important perspective on the matter, but, more importantly, that there's a whole hell of a lot going on here that has nothing to do with the "but but but racism! slavery!" narrative that appears to be the limit of your curiosity and understanding. For somebody who pretends to such concern about differing perspectives, these troubling aspects seem to lie entirely beyond your ken. (And, btw, we already have enough brain-dead copy-pasters breathlessly posting links that they apparently believe constitute new information that is going to blow everyone's mind. Kitty, a word: nothing in your breathless links is news to anybody here. They know the same things you know, and they still disagree with you.

Reasonable, intelligent people, people in possession of the same set of information, can still disagree about an issue. This state of affairs does not perplex adults.

buwaya said...

US Country music doesnt travel. Rock does (or did, its gone native everywhere now).

I recall my cousin, once a DJ at the leading pop station in Manila, once called it "chicken music".

Its very culturally specific, like the Filipino Kundiman or the Mexican Norteno.

Michael K said...

Maybe "Kate" should read this column about what real troubles blacks have, instead of made up controversies.

The previous Sunday, a church usher, Emmanuel Fleming, 34, and another man Michael Swift, 46, were shot to death on the steps of that church as Fleming yelled to his three little children to run.

Michael K said...

I guess I should add "KittyM" to the reading list.

Jael (Gone Windwalking) said...

“Strange Fruit” is also the South.

Huge. Music owning the spectrum.

Heywood Rice said...

It's a mistake to assume that there is a hard line between country an rock or any other genre of art. These are descriptive terms not scientific classifications. Is there a hard line separating art nouveau from art deco, dada from surrealism from cubism etc.?

Ray - SoCal said...

Civil War had many new technologies, that the tactics had not caught up with yet. This caused a lot of casualties. Mass charges became slaughters, till the tactics changed.

- Minié ball (made guns a lot more accurate).
- Breech-loading rifled muskets and artillery pieces
- Railroad
- Telegraph
- Rotary Press
- Interchangeable Parts (Industrial Revolution)

OK article that missed the Minie Ball.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-technology-shaped-the-civil-war-classics/

Good article about the impact of the Mini Ball:
http://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/minie-ball

KittyM said...

@Tman2 -- A black city councilman loudly proclaimed in my presence it must be “thrown in the river.”

A simple question from me: do you have any feeling of empathy for the councilman or any understanding at all of why he might have made this comment?

This is not a question about the decision to keep the statue. It is a question about the "complexity" of the situation. Althouse has asked us explicitly above to "move toward understanding the details of history, especially what it was like for particular individuals in different positions, looking at things from their perspective".

Can you accept her invitation?

Heywood Rice said...

US Country music doesnt travel.

Whoa, now there's some cosmopolitan bias.

Charlie said...

"I went on to express [to Robbie] my belief in creating music with input from everyone and reminded him that all the hot ideas from basic song concepts to the mixing and sequencing of our record, were not always exclusively his"

Those things (for the most part) don't entitle you to songwriting credit.

Jupiter said...

antiphone said...

"It really is heartwarming to see the black point of view so well represented here, by folks who know what they think."

So, antiphone, why are you so sure we aren't all black as coal? Is it possibly because we write well and have read extensively, so you know we couldn't be black?

Mark said...

So far in 2017 there have been 230 murders in Baltimore -- 200 black victims.

Number related to Confederate statues, white supremacist or neo-Naxis? Zero.

Number of murders that could have been prevented if only we took down all those statues and whipped all racists off the face of the earth? Zero.

Again, there are vastly greater things that African-Americans worry about than some effing statues of guys from 150 years ago.

Mark said...

A simple question from me: do you have any feeling of empathy, Kitty, for the 200 black men, woman and children who have been murdered in Baltimore this year?

Freeman Hunt said...

Nearly all of my ancestors emigrated to Virginia or Massachusetts. The first one to emigrate to Virginia came from Wales in 1562. My ancestors fought on both sides of the Civil War. I live in the South. I grew up in a town with a Confederate monument in the middle of the town square.

I have always wanted it gone. Now that this issue has captured the national imagination, it seems like a good time to address it.

Memorials to the dead, yes. Monuments honoring the Confederate surrender and peace, yes. But monuments honoring the leaders of the Confederacy as leaders of the Confederacy and the Confederacy itself, no.

We aspire to be the land of liberty. Honoring a cause to keep our citizens enslaved should be, therefore, preposterous.

We should put up monuments to people and things we'd like to honor. If there is a person who should be honored apart from deeds supporting the Confederacy but was, at some time, a Confederate soldier, that's fine. Honor that person. Put up a monument. But don't depict the person in a Confederate uniform with big, chiseled letters honoring the Confederacy.

In other cases, why not move some of the monuments honoring Confederate leadership to Civil War battlefield parks and replace them with monuments honoring those who supported liberty during Reconstruction, those who fought for the liberty of our citizens who were enslaved, or other notable local people from other time periods?

We've had an incredible number of great Americans and Americans have fought for an incredible number of great causes. Why have a cause in opposition to the principles of our founding dominate our monuments in the South?

Ambrose said...

"Like my father before me, I will work the land." For more that 40 years I thought it was, and sang along to, "I'm a working man." What do you know? - just excuse me while I kiss this guy.

KittyM said...

@Angel-Dyne "She has covered several perspectives on this issue" ... "The idea that the black Southerner's perspective is somehow being ignored or suppressed (here or anywhere else) is an absurdity."

No. No she hasn't. She really truly hasn't.

You can like what she writes and that's all good. But it is simply utterly not true.

I'm going to ask you to look at my review of all the posts on this subject since the day before Charlottesville or simply to look back yourself and show me where Althouse has explored "the black Southerner's perspective". That's all I ask.

Show me where she had covered several perspectives because I haven't found them and I find that a sad omission, given that she has just asked us to (and I quote again) "move toward understanding the details of history, especially what it was like for particular individuals in different positions, looking at things from their perspective"

Jupiter said...

Lee's job was to keep the Federals at bay until the English recognized the Confederacy. Grant's job was to use the superior resources of the North to destroy Lee's army before that happened.

Grant's memoir makes fascinating reading. He doesn't explain his strategy, but at one point he answers some critics, who claimed he needlessly wasted lives by relentlessly attacking North of Richmond. He explains that it was much better to make Lee trade lives at parity in the Wilderness, than to let him take two-for-one fighting from behind the works in front of Richmond.

Grant was operating a meat grinder, and he knew it. His job was to keep the crank turning until the other side ran out of meat.

Heywood Rice said...

So, antiphone, why are you so sure we aren't all black as coal? Is it possibly because we write well and have read extensively, so you know we couldn't be black?

It's pronouns that would be the tell, it makes some difference but we're still individuals. Is one opinion not enough?

Mark said...

Black murder victims are sky high. Black unemployment is sky high. Black incarceration rates are sky high. Destruction of the black family is sky high. Displacement of blacks from affordable housing due to white progressive gentrification is increasing.

And you folks keep on bitching and whining about some damn statues?? That's your priority?

Who really are the evil bastards here? Look in the fucking mirror. It is clear that you folks don't give a rat's ass about the real problems and real challenges that black people face every day.

KittyM said...

@Mark "A simple question from me: do you have any feeling of empathy, Kitty, for the 200 black men, woman and children who have been murdered in Baltimore this year?"

Yes, I do.

Thought experiment: What if there was a statue in Baltimore. commenting whatever or whomever it was that was responsible for those 200 deaths? What if someone suggested that there be a monument that celebrated those murderers, on the grounds that they did a lot with their lives *apart* from murdering and that in many other ways they were great people, who, say, worked hard at their jobs, or loved music, or had other great qualities.

How would you feel about that? More to the point, how would the loved ones and acquaintances of those slain men, women and children feel about that monument? Might they object?

And how would you/ they feel if in answer to your objections, others would say, "But no! It's not about those murders! It's about the fact that they were great people otherwise. Don't bring up the murders again! You keep going on about the murders."

Mark said...

If folks want the issue of memorials to be gone, it is very simple -- LET IT GO. It is the people who are agitating for the removal who are keeping this all alive.

JUST LET IT GO if you want the matter gone. People have walked by these things for decades never giving them a second thought. And that's what we should do now.

Heywood Rice said...

The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down, is it country, rock, what?

Paddy O said...


"Might it be that non-Southerners, for cultural reasons, simply cannot understand why it’s difficult for Southerners to execrate their ancestors, even if their ancestors did bad things?""

Of course it's hard. It's quite natural. Most folks find it difficult to execrate their ancestors.

The tricky bit isn't in the execration, it's in maybe, at some point, admitting those ancestors were wrong.

The Germans, for instance, really do feel a great deal of guilt about WW2, it continues to shape their policies. They've outlawed Nazi symbols.

Odd thing that, right, even though that's part of their heritage.

The South continued to celebrate what it did during the Civil War for quite a while. It's not the heritage, really, it's the celebratory zeal about it, that sticks for many.

I have family that fought for the south. I don't execrate them, but I'm convinced they were on the wrong side of that fight, just as I'm convinced that Democrats are still are on the wrong side of the fight in our era.

That said, these statues, the media blitz about them, are really much the same as what happened in the Civil War. Rich folks getting poor folks to fight battles that devastate the poor folks while enriching the rich folks. The Media gets richer by selling chaos to each side, they're race-war profiteers.

Ray - SoCal said...

I view the statue issue, accusations of Racism, etc. as just distractions and attempts to get out the minority vote. Interesting how BLM is out of the news, now they are no longer seen as very helpful for getting out the vote. Look what happened to Occupy. And how a small group of people, can get so much media attention.

I am amazed at how little attention is paid to root cause issues in the Black Community. Education is my pet peeve. I view it as a national disgrace what the results many US schools produce for many of the poor in the US. And the government keeps on shoveling more money at it, which has not helped.

But, lots of attention to Racism, and how at any time we are about to enter a time 50+ or 153+ years ago with the election or action of some evil Republican. It must be true, for Joe Biden said, "put you all back in chains". And no mention of the huge amount of Black on Black murders. Reality is the US is not going back in time on racism, Jeff Sessions has a granddaughter that is part Asian, and Trump a daughter that converted being Jewish.

I hope the US improves the quality of the Education given to lower achieving kids. Betsy Devos sounds like an amazing appointment to help take care of these challenges.

And Trump can do something to help on the job front in the inner cities. The best way to reduce poverty, is real jobs. Actually per studies, not have children out of wedlock, get married, stay married is the best way to get out of poverty. Which is what the elite does.

I have no ideas how to fix our country in these areas, but I hope it improves. Automation, Technology, and Competition from other countries are huge challenges to the US way of life, and are not going to go away.

Good article:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450799/college-affirmative-action-failure-family-dissolutions-greater-role

Jupiter said...

KittyM said ...

"I'm going to ask you to look at my review of all the posts on this subject since the day before Charlottesville or simply to look back yourself and show me where Althouse has explored "the black Southerner's perspective". That's all I ask."

She hasn't. One might conclude that the subject doesn't interest her. She's obviously a racist and her blog should be shut down. Maybe you could get her pension revoked. Would you be satisfied then? Or does she need to publicly confess her sins and beg you for mercy?

I guess you could start a blog of your own on the subject.

KittyM said...

@Mark "And you folks keep on bitching and whining about some damn statues?? That's your priority?"

That's not really your call, is it? To tell others they should have other priorities. That's not really an argument *for* the statues, is it? The statues are offensive. Or maybe not. We can argue about that but it's not an actual argument to say it shouldn't be a priority.

Mark said...

Thought experiment: How about really addressing real problems with real solutions -- which have NOTHING TO DO WITH STATUES OR YOUR OBSESSION WITH FEELINGS.

Thought experiment: How about we work to reduce murders? How about we work to increase opportunities for quality gainful employment for those on the margins so that they might be productive members of society? How about we fix the public schools in the inner cities, which in their current state are a human rights abuse?

How about we get our priorities straight?

Mark said...

And to Ray's point --

Thought experiment: How about we stop exploiting black people for political gain and stop taking their support for granted? How about we stop trying to incite and agitate?

Ray - SoCal said...

I wonder...

If the current accusations of Racism / White Supremacy continue against Donald Trump, what is he going to do?

Bannon wanted him to reach out to the Black Community, as a way to destroy the Democratic Party.

I have a feeling if the accusations continue, Donald Trump is going to war on the use of the word Racism, and it won't be pretty. He already did that on immigration. Things that a few years ago would have been called Racist, are now open for discussion. He has changed the entire conversation.

Donald Trump right now is pretty focused on the Press. But if decides they have been pretty much defeated, he may focus on other areas.

Michael K said...

I view the statue issue, accusations of Racism, etc. as just distractions and attempts to get out the minority vote.

I would correct that to the black vote. Nobody is interested in the Asian vote.

Mexican-American vote ? That why all the huffing and puffing on the left about the Arpaio pardon.

You gave to be specific in the age when 5 year olds are sent to the principle's office for calling atrannie classmate by the wrong name.

Heywood Rice said...

Again, there are vastly greater things that African-Americans worry about than some effing statues of guys from 150 years ago.

Why do you think it's only a matter of what African Americans think?

KittyM said...

@Jupiter ???? Angel-Dyne made a clear statement, I disagreed and asked her for evidence, because I couldn't find any myself. Simple.

@Mark "People have walked by these things for decades never giving them a second thought." This is going to blow your mind but that is simply not true. *You* may have walked past them without giving them a second thought. But many many others have been deeply offended and threatened by them for many many decades. That is just a fact, well-documented.

White Southerners maybe not. But African-Americans know exactly what was intended by those monuments and they are deeply hurtful and upsetting.

Now - you may not mind that. You may think, as many here do, "Oh, who cares what black people think? *i* like them, my family likes them, my friends like them and so we will keep them." That is a legitimate (although revolting) point of view.

But please don't hide behind the idea that nobody minds. Don't comfort yourself with the lie that no-one even notices them. Have the courage of your convictions and accept the truth that many many Americans over the years have hated and continue to hate and find appalling these monuments.

If you genuinely don't know anyone who is offended by them. then consider that your circle of friends and acquaintances may be limited or that maybe people don't tell you what they think and feel.

Jupiter said...

KittyM said...

"That's not really your call, is it? To tell others they should have other priorities. That's not really an argument *for* the statues, is it? The statues are offensive. Or maybe not. We can argue about that but it's not an actual argument to say it shouldn't be a priority."

That's more like it, KittyM. Don't whine about what Althouse chooses to discuss. You've got a keyboard.

And no, that is no argument at all. It looks to me like an evasive awareness that the question of what the government chooses to make available for public veneration is a can of worms.

KittyM said...

@Mark "Thought experiment: How about really addressing real problems with real solutions -- which have NOTHING TO DO WITH STATUES OR YOUR OBSESSION WITH FEELINGS."

So - I take it you're refusing to address my thought experiment.

I answered your question. How about answering mine?

Ray - SoCal said...

I was trying to be polite, and a bit politically correct, but your right on the black vote.

Asian is another one taken for granted by the Democrats, but the admission issue is a huge one for Indians, Chinese, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, and Japanese Americans.

Latinos/Hispanics are also taken for granted, but it's a very diverse group. Some of the most Pro Trump people I have met were Latino.

>I would correct that to the black vote. Nobody is interested in the Asian vote.

Ray - SoCal said...

458 Homicides in 2017 in Chicago. 789 in Chicago.
Wounded is usually a 10 to 1 ratio to Homicides I have read.

http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/homicides

Michael K said...

KittyM waxing poetic about her friend the the black city councilman.

Was that him ?

Is this him ?

"I hate white people !"

Mark said...

What question Kitty -- the one about what if there was a statue in Baltimore celebrating murderers?

I don't know. Ask me in about 75-100 years. After they've been up that long, then I'll tell you about how great a priority it is to get rid of them, or if I have bigger things to worry about.

Jupiter said...

"So - I take it you're refusing to address my thought experiment."

Indeed. It is well-crafted, and hard to argue with. If the government is to waste tax monies on public art, shouldn't it at least choose public art that does not offend a substantial proportion of the populace? It does my heart good to see that the Left is finally beginning to realize that the government should not be subsidizing offensive art.

KittyM said...

@Jupiter. I'm not "whining" about what Althouse chooses to discuss. Stop manipulating language to make an opponent's arguments seem weaker or to put an opponent down. That's cheap and dishonest.

I have taken up Althouse's own comments and reacted to them. To reiterate: Althouse here asks us to be more aware of historical complexity. She wrote a quite long and moving comment about it.

So I have challenged her to address her own lack of complexity in her posting on this issue. It is an interesting contradiction to ask for "understanding" of different viewpoints and yet in NOT ONE SINGLE post explore the offence created by these monuments nor even address A SINGLE TIME black Southern history.

That is a gaping hole that makes today's comment so problematic for me.

She can post whatever she wants. It's her blog. But she believes strongly in free speech so I consider myself invited to express criticism of her own writing, as long as she lets me. I judge her to be a person who is open to debate - and it's only a debate if there are opposing views expressed.

Fabi said...

Is there a reason people like to pretend that slavery only existed in the South?

Daniel Jackson said...

Earnest Prole Said: "In her version Baez converts Robert E. Lee from a general to a boat, making one wonder whether she had any idea what she was singing about."

ARE YOU SERIOUS?? YOU MEAN IT IS NOT ABOUT THE MISSISSIPPI RIVERBOAT THE GENERAL ROBERT E LEE???

After all these years you tell me this interpretation of the song is incorrect?

So, why did they take Virgil's Very Best Wood??

Jupiter said...

"I judge her to be a person who is open to debate - and it's only a debate if there are opposing views expressed."

Quite right, and you are expressing them. Which was my point. It is not known whether Althouse encourages her commenters or merely tolerates us, but if you want to make your case, she won't stop you. That I can attest.

So I think we were about to agree that the government shouldn't be holding *any* views up for public approbation, lest someone be offended. Were we not?

richard mcenroe said...

No Jews on the country list? So what's Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys, BBQ'd chopped liver?

Mark said...

I will tell you this --

There are things in this town (D.C.) and this country that offend me greatly each and every day. There are things I find insulting and degrading and derogatory and belittling every day. There are people who are out to destroy -- socially, culturally, politically, legally -- everything I believe in and stand for.

And you know what? Let them say whatever they want to say. Let them erect whatever statues and monuments they want to. Go ahead, let them parade their hate and ignorance.

They certainly do so ALL THE TIME right here in their comments on this blog. Let their comments remain online, archived, so what folks can see what mean, bigoted, malicious people they are.

KittyM said...

@Mark "What question Kitty -- the one about what if there was a statue in Baltimore celebrating murderers?"

Yes. Thank you for your answer, which essentially addressed the fact that the statues are old

So here is the follow-up question: do you know why African-Americans didn't complain about the statues at the time they were erected?

Do you understand enough about, as Althouse puts it, the "complexity" of American history to have a sense of the impossibility of black Americans in the South having *any* power to object as the monuments to the Generals who fought a war whose victory would have meant continued slavery for them and their families? They couldn't complain then or seek restitution.

Given that painful background, don't you think that now they *can* make their voices heard, white Southerners should listen? Why can't the white South think, "Well, we've enjoyed them until now. We had a pretty good run. Let someone else make the decision as to what art is displayed in our public places. Maybe it's someone else's go now."

Fabi said...

How many black Southerners do antiphone and KittyM know?

Anonymous said...

Freeman: We should put up monuments to people and things we'd like to honor.

Who's "we", white lady?

You appear to have gone into complete "mental shutdown" mode on this subject, Freeman. Never heard of "salami tactics"? The people behind this planned, co-ordinated "sponataneous" moral panic about statues absolutely do not give a damn about the genteel little distinction you keep repeating - as if repetition gave it magical power to control the behavior of people whose agendas are entirely at odds with your own.

You don't understand what's going on here.

Mark said...

Is there a reason people like to pretend that slavery only existed in the South?

You know as well as we all do that this is not about slavery at all. It's about having a sword with which to attack others for ideological gain.

It is weaponized moralizing. That's the business we are engaged in here.

rcocean said...

"Jupiter. I'm not "whining" about what Althouse chooses to discuss. Stop manipulating language to make an opponent's arguments seem weaker or to put an opponent down. That's cheap and dishonest."

Yeah, 'cause that's what the American Left is all about. Intellectual debate and "Fair play".

LOL! If you believe that, well, there's a sucker born every minute.

Jupiter said...

KittyM said ...

Why can't the white South think, "Well, we've enjoyed them until now. We had a pretty good run. Let someone else make the decision as to what art is displayed in our public places. Maybe it's someone else's go now."

Hold on just a 'mo, Kitty. I thought we were agreed that the government should not be offending the populace. But now it sounds like you just want it to offend that portion of the populace that you like to see offended. Do I have that right?

Fabi said...

They'll never let a virtue signaling crisis go to waste, Mark!

KittyM said...

@Mark You want to keep Confederate statues on display but the people who disagree are "mean, bigoted, malicious"?

That seems very "sensitive snowflake-y" to me (to use a term that people on the right often use as an insult against left wing people). Can't people disagree on these monuments? I certainly haven't accused a single person on this site of racism, though many people write that I have. I am careful to be respectful as per the rules - plus of course I don't know anyone personally and am hardly in the position to judge the character of an anonymous blog commenter!

KittyM said...

@Jupiter. "Why can't the white South think, "Well, we've enjoyed them until now. We had a pretty good run. Let someone else make the decision as to what art is displayed in our public places. Maybe it's someone else's go now.""

I was slightly exaggerating to make my point. I wanted to remind Mark that there is a reason that African-Americans didn't complain about these monuments at the time. That's all.

buwaya said...

All over the world there are monuments some minority there despises, or finds threatening.

The issue of tribal symbols is always difficult if you have history and are on their turf.

But these questions are usually settled by the fact that it is their turf. If this is intolerable, then the options are few.

rcocean said...

Moderates Like "Freeman" just want to be the last one hauled off to the Gulag.

Night Owl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fabi said...

May I suggest a new term? This isn't just virtue signaling, it's a virtue tantrum.

Mark said...

You want to keep Confederate statues on display but the people who disagree are "mean, bigoted, malicious"?

Again, Kitty, there are more issues than your obsession with statues and monuments and people's reactions to it.

When I said I am offended and insulted every day, I did not mean just the last two weeks -- I mean the last forty years, give or take.

Jupiter said...

KittyM said ...

"I was slightly exaggerating to make my point. I wanted to remind Mark that there is a reason that African-Americans didn't complain about these monuments at the time. That's all."

So, we are agreed? The government should stop erecting statues, funding art, sponsoring plays, naming streets after notable people, etc. That's really what you would like to see, and then you would have no complaint?

Fabi said...

No answer yet on how many black Southerners KittyM and antiphone know? It must be dozens. Maybe hundreds.

Jupiter said...

"I wanted to remind Mark that there is a reason that African-Americans didn't complain about these monuments at the time."

Yes, and there's a reason I don't give a damn what they do in Baltimore, too, KittyM. It appears that the battle for Baltimore is another fight the white people lost.

Jupiter said...

Maybe they should put up a monument to the Unknown Father.

Anonymous said...

KittyM:

You're boring. You have absolutely nothing of interest to say on this subject. Get back to us when you learn how to engage like a thinking adult.

KittyM said...

@rcocean "Yeah, 'cause that's what the American Left is all about. Intellectual debate and "Fair play"."

Why don't you school me in the superiority of intellectual debate and fair play on the right by actually engaging in the arguments?

I started commenting here fairly recently, as you probably know, and my completely honest feedback to you guys is that there is precious little "intellectual debate" on this board. So far at least i have not been tremendously impressed by the intellectually honesty and openess to genuine debate displayed here (with a few exceptions),

On the whole, commenters have ridiculed me, personally insulted me (called me stupid, a moron, etc etc), refused to respond to my points. There's been a fair amount of "what about..." which again doesn't actually engage with my points. A lot of people telling me I should have said something else, or expressed myself differently.

So, you know, you really haven't shown me that the right does these things better than the left.

Night Owl said...

"virtue signaling"

"It's speech that doesn't count because...?"

Oh it counts; it's used to shut down the other side of discussion. It counts a lot.

For example, one could say "Neo-nazis are despicable, but if some of them march in favor of free speech that doesn't make all people who rally in support of free-speech despicable neo-nazis."

But a virtue-signaler says "Neo-nazis are evil." Period. No buts. And all those who want to rally in favor of free speech are smeared as neo-nazis, as was seen in Boston. And free-speech rallies get cancelled out of fears of violence, like in SF. One side -- those in favor of free speech-- gets shut out, due to virtue-signaling.

Virtue-sigaling is cheap talk that solves nothing, and is used simply as an attempt to give the speaker the moral high-ground in a debate. Virtue-signaling, along with political correctness, have so far been very effective at smearing right-wing speech as hate-speech. But people are sick of it. Trump becoming our president is proof of that.

(This comment is the earlier comment edited for clarity.)

Michael said...

Kitty M
You wrote "But African-Americans know exactly what was intended by those monuments and they are deeply hurtful and upsetting." I am not sure you could back that up with writings or oral statements by blacks beginning, say, ten years ago. Like many Southeners blacks living in the south passed these statues daily for decades. Given a poll I would doubt that 5% of blacks or whites could name the man on the horse in the town square. It is sickening, by the way, to ascribe feelings to other people who have voices of their own. But go ahead and give us links to statements by blacks about the hurtful statues down the ages. I think you will find few. Like you they weren't woke til just now. Discovering just now the deeply hurtful and upsetting stone.

Fabi said...

"...and my completely honest feedback to you guys is that there is precious little "intellectual debate" on this board."

We're sorry!

buwaya said...

In Manila there are monuments, streets, quarters, towns and cities named after fellows who defeated the Muslims and the Chinese, sometimes with great massacres.

They are unlikely to be renamed unless either the Muslims or the Chinese take power there.

KittyM said...

@Angel-Dyne "You're boring. You have absolutely nothing of interest to say on this subject. Get back to us when you learn how to engage like a thinking adult."

Thank you so much for providing everyone here with a perfect example of what I was just talking about with @rcocean about the standard of intellectual debate on this board.

It's idiotic but I feel like saying just one more time before I go: I am here in good faith and I have tried to make some clear points about the ways in which I disagree with some of you here. I genuinely don't know how to "handle" comments like this so I will leave you to it.

Mark said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Paco Wové said...

"Can't people disagree on these monuments?"

Well, if one side wants to tear them down and the other doesn't... that sounds like a pretty binary choice, doesn't it? They either go or stay.


"these questions are usually settled by the fact that it is their turf."

And that is what (may) be changing now. As KittyM notes, demographic changes in the USA are such that the removal of these statues, once inconceivable, is not only conceivable but in progress, as those groups that want the statues gone gain political power. It is a tribal political turf war, and those on the defensive side are becoming more and more agitated and angry.

Fabi said...

Still waiting to hear about all your black Southern friends, KittyM!

Mark said...

Minorities and women and gays and immigrants, et al., are not the only folks who have been victims of hate, insults, discrimination, oppression, persecution, etc., including violence, death and even genocide. So the aforementioned people do not have a monopoly on being offended. Every group can claim victim status too, if they so chose to do so.

Yes, we should have a more civil, more respectful society. But we don't.

Meanwhile, you know what these other people who also regularly suffer animosity do? No, they don't agitate and get all melodramatic. Instead, they ignore it. They move on. They suck it up and offer it up. They don't whine. They turn the other cheek. They laugh at the people who hate them. They even forgive and pray for their persecutors.

Heywood Rice said...

Virtue-signaling is cheap talk that solves nothing, and is used simply as an attempt to give the speaker the moral high-ground in a debate.

Ok, so when white supremmisists and neo Nazis want to demonstrate their support of free speech in front of confederate statues is this virtue signaling?

KittyM said...

@Michael "I am not sure you could back that up with writings or oral statements by blacks beginning, say, ten years ago. "

Yes I could.

"It is sickening, by the way, to ascribe feelings to other people who have voices of their own."

How can you possibly know whether these are "other people" I am talking about? Are you so sure of my ethnicity? How interesting that you would make that assumption.

buwaya said...

If your tribe still runs the place, its never someone elses turn. If it is someone elses turn, then your tribe has no power.

That is the way of the world.

Jupiter said...

buwaya said,

"They are unlikely to be renamed unless either the Muslims or the Chinese take power there."

Yes, and that's what this is about. They thought they had won the war. They thought President Pantsuit would name every street in America after some Communist or terrorist leader, and pack people like me off to the camps. Having finally realized that we aren't going to give them a do-over no matter how hard they squeal, they are preparing to achieve their goals by other means.

KittyM said...

@Fabi "Still waiting to hear about all your black Southern friends, KittyM!"

That information is irrelevant to the intellectual argument which must stand on its own merits, quite apart from however many black Southern friends I may or may not have. But see my comment to Michael above.

Mark said...

Are you so sure of my ethnicity? How interesting that you would make that assumption.

Kitty, please -- you yourself have made assumptions about people's race and ethnicity here for two weeks. By your repeated questioning about whether people know what African-Americans feel and think about all this, you are assuming that the people here are not.

Jupiter said...

"How can you possibly know whether these are "other people" I am talking about? Are you so sure of my ethnicity? How interesting that you would make that assumption."

What's interesting about it, Kitty? You write in complete sentences and make cogent arguments. He naturally assumed you are white. Everyone assumes everyone on this blog is white. It's kind of amusing, actually. But "interesting"? That sounds like someone getting ready to play a card. A high card.

Michael said...

Kitty M.
Great!! Let's see the links. And btw I don't give a shit what your race is and would modify that only to say speak for yourself should you be a person of color.

Fabi said...

Not a single one of your answers at 7:21 is in good faith, KittyM. Practice what you preach.

Fabi said...

You remain evasive, KittyM. Poor faith. Sad!

buwaya said...

The complicating bit about the turf issues in this case is the fact that the monuments are usually in urban areas, largely black or perhaps also "cosmopolitan" to some degree, but the surrounding polity is still, in its rural, suburban and exurban regions, still containing a majority of the white tribe.

Its also a complication in the definition of turf.

In all these matters, one can tolerate, negotiate or fight. It seems that these days some people want to fight.

Michael said...

Kitty M
Waiting for multiple links. Standing by here.

KittyM said...

@Mark "Yes, we should have a more civil, more respectful society. But we don't." "No, they don't agitate and get all melodramatic. Instead, they ignore it. They move on. They suck it up and offer it up. They don't whine. They turn the other cheek. They laugh at the people who hate them. They even forgive and pray for their persecutors."

This comment of yours confuses me. Are we still on the topic of Confederate statues?

If so, it seems a bit rich to be writing that white people "don't whine. They turn the other cheek" when the reason we are all talking about this issue was a Nazi march against the removal of the statues!

Michael said...

Buwaya
The statues are invisible to most. But happily when they are gone black children will again have fathers at home and will be reading at grade level and the n word will be gone from rap "music".

Anonymous said...

KittyM: I genuinely don't know how to "handle" comments like this so I will leave you to it.

The problem, Kitty, is that, despite your claims of looking for good faith debate, you show no evidence of knowing how to "handle" any kind of comment that disagrees with your own opinion, except by assuming that any disagreement must arise from your interlocutor "not understanding" or "not being able to sympathize".

This is childish in the extreme, and you wonder why people are annoyed with you.

Paco Wové said...

This may be one of those oral statements that KittyM is talking about.

Michael K said...

Given that painful background, don't you think that now they *can* make their voices heard,

What a shame that Obama, with the bully pulpit of the Presidency, spent his time reviling Cambridge cops and Florida community anti-burglary patrols. Why didn't he go after these terrible problems to Confederate statues?

Don't you think there is a slight possibility the Democrats are in a panic to get the black vote agitated?

Sort of like Orwell's novel 1984, which is not a " how to manual" but a warning from his days at the BBC.

Michael said...

KittyM
"@Michael "I am not sure you could back that up with writings or oral statements by blacks beginning, say, ten years ago. "

Yes I could."

Apparently you cannot.

Ray - SoCal said...

Thought experiment.

Change the word White to Black, and Nazi to BLM.

Would the statement then be racist?

>If so, it seems a bit rich to be writing that white people "don't whine. They turn the other cheek" when the reason we are all talking about
>this issue was a Nazi march against the removal of the statues!

Mark said...

This comment of yours confuses me. Are we still on the topic of Confederate statues?

It confuses you because of your single-minded obsession. But I repeat myself. Again.

Heywood Rice said...

Virtue signaling, attempting to make the case that it's in the interest of black people to leave the statues alone and that white liberals are doing them harm by wanting the statues taken down. That's virtue signaling.

Mark said...

Things do not happen in isolation, in a vacuum.

This was never just about some stupid statues.

rcocean said...

"Why don't you school me in the superiority of intellectual debate and fair play on the right by actually engaging in the arguments?"

Good grief, what nonsense. Conservatives CAN NOT get hired at Liberal magazines, colleges, newspapers, etc. Lefties BOAST about "de-platforming" conservatives. People in black masks with hammers attack Pro-Trump demonstrators and so-called "Nazis" and Liberals applaud. Respected scholars like Charles Murray and harmless conservative schleps like Ben Shapiro get attacked and driven off campus.

Go on any Liberal website and say something strongly conservative and the ban hammer will come down, while the liberal commentator laugh and joke about it.

Althouse is NOT a Conservative website, but she allows Free speech.

So when liberals come here, whining about "What about respect for both sides?" its like Stalin or Hitler complaining about no freedom of the press. Its a joke. Besides why pick on me? I'm just one conservative. There are many here at Althouse who will play "crossfire" with you till the cows come home. whatever floats their boat.

Steve in Toronto said...

for what it's worth Robbie Robertson was from the South (Southern Ontario, Canada). He grew up on the six nations Indian reservation southwest of Toronto.

Ray - SoCal said...

I believe we are on the topic of get out the Black vote for 2017.

I would have suggested they wait till next year to do this action. May be it was a test?

Or Alinskys Rules of never let up the pressure?

Michael K said...

" this issue was a Nazi march against the removal of the statues!"

Actually, it wasn't. It was a group of young white men who were whipped into a mild frenzy but an agent provocateur who was an Obama organizer last year.

The people who created the riot were leftist agitators who call themselves "ANTIFA."

The driver of the car is a schizophrenic who was booted out of the Army for concealing the fact that he was taking anti-psychotic medication, a felony.

Night Owl said...

"Ok, so when white supremmisists and neo Nazis want to demonstrate their support of free speech in front of confederate statues is this virtue signaling?"

They know that their speech is abhorrent to most Americans and they don't care. Quite the opposite of virtue signaling, to me anyway.

Michael K said...

Go on any Liberal website and say something strongly conservative and the ban hammer will come down, while the liberal commentator laugh and joke about it.

It's OK if you say, our integrated Army creates white supremacists.

The left needs smarter spokespersons that our lefty commenters.

Ray - SoCal said...

We need to change the name of Yale, since he was a Slave Trader.

And take down and erase any mention of him.

MountainMan said...

"Do you know there are only two statues of Medgar Evers in Mississippi while there are hundreds of Jefferson Davis?"

I searched for quite a while on the internet and could find only 5 statues of Jefferson Davis in Mississippi. If you can find more, please list them. There are also some in nearly every other Southern state, but not that many.

If you would like more statues of Medgar Evers or other civil rights leaders or, especially, former slaves who rose to prominence in the post-war era, then why not raise the money and build them? This is what I don't understand about the people who want to remove all the Confederate monuments. Nearly all the statues and historical markers across the South were purchased and placed by private organizations: the UCV, UDC, or LMA for the most part. Public money was not used. There is no reason you cannot raise your own money for more statues. This position would be analogous to the Althouse's position on free speech, which i totally agree with: If you don't like all the current monuments, don't tear them down, just build more monuments.

KittyM said...

@Jupiter "What's interesting about it, Kitty?"

What's interesting is that people here assuming I am white is a great example of racial bias. Another example is what i pointed out at the beginning of this thread: that when we talk here about Southern heritage and Southern history, we assume simply and unthinkingly that we are talking about all Southern heritage, even though when we examine what we are saying, it becomes clear that we mean *white* Southern heritage. In this way, black history is always "the other".

@Michael I don't have links. I have lived experience and actual relationships.

But here is an interesting link for you: https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/whoseheritage_splc.pdf This paper documents the confederate monuments around the US and gives some historical background. I think if you have an open mind you will find this in particular interesting:

The dedication of Confederate monuments and the use of Confederate names and other iconography began shortly after the Civil War ended in 1865. But two distinct periods saw signi cant spikes. The rst began around 1900 as Southern states were enacting Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise African Americans and re-segregate society after several decades of integration that followed Reconstruction. It lasted well into the 1920s, a period that also saw a strong revival of the Ku Klux Klan. The second period began in the mid-1950s and lasted until the late 1960s, the period encompassing the modern civil rights movement.

So you see, these monuments didn't magically appear to neutrally commemorate some vague history. White Southerners erected them deliberately in order to remind African-Americans of thier oppression, to remind them who was boss, if you like, and to show them that racial equality was not on the cards.

Also in the document, the authors make the point better than I can: "The “heritage, not hate” argument ignores the near-universal heritage of African Americans who were enslaved by the millions in the South and later subjected to brutal oppression under the white supremacist regime of Jim Crow. Our democracy is based on equality under the law, and public entities should not prominently display symbols that undermine that concept and alien- ate an entire segment of the population.


Ray - SoCal said...

Stanford should also be renamed. He was a Eugenist/racist.

Ray - SoCal said...

Planned Parenthood should be dissolved, since the founder was a Eugenist/Racist.

Ray - SoCal said...

Democratic Party should get dissolved since they supported slavery.

buwaya said...

As for monuments, yes indeed you could use a few. There are a good number of American heroes with no public memorial, and often with zero public Some suggestions, should someone care to add some -

- One perhaps belongs in Illinois, Kansas, or Oklahoma, depending on what you consider his hometown. Personally I think it belongs in Daly City, CA, or even San Francisco.
This one could be spectacular - Captain Ramsey leading the old 26th Cavalry, Philippine Scouts, in its last charge, Jan 16, 1942.

- The brothers Cushing, half-Mexican mining engineers, who were the first to take to guerilla war. They were born in Guadalajara, but settled in El Paso Texas, so probably belong there. Its quite a story, or stories.

- Colonels Thorpe, Moses, Noble; Fertig, Volkmann, Lapham, Blackburn, Praeger, etc. in a long list of American guerillas each with a story of sacrifice and daring.

- Yay Panlilio - Fil American lady reporter, spy and guerilla chieftain - no, really, she was leading troops in combat and was made a PA Colonel. Also wrote a great book. I believe she settled in Los Angeles, so probably belongs there. One of the UC Schools of Journalism should be named in her honor.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Not all the Southerners did that. A number were pro-Union. And they are seven generations removed from those misleading bozos. Who here seriously has intimate personal feelings about seven-generation removed ancestors? Who here even knows who they are? And if they weren't such retarded bumpkins they'd understand that many were co-opted into the Confederacy or probably coerced. Unless they have a direct descent from Jefferson Davis et al (and one of his descendants has repudiated him utterly) - then I am sick and tired of hearing about this veneration nonsense. It's simply white supremacist identity politics and it's time to stop having mini-secessionist revivals every other year. This country has some moving on to do. So many things it could get done if people stopped hitching their politics to this nonsense.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

What about the pro-Union Southerners? I guess they just don't count.

buwaya said...

But the South is mostly white.
No getting around that.

buwaya said...

You don't know your ancestors Ritmo?

Seven generations isnt hard to work out.

The job can be instructive, and it can reveal some interesting bits of history, "the rest of the story" that dont always get in the books.

Churchill was quite right to be interested in his ancestor the Duke of Marlborough. I recommend his book.

KittyM said...

@MountainMan "I searched for quite a while on the internet and could find only 5 statues of Jefferson Davis in Mississippi. If you can find more, please list them. There are also some in nearly every other Southern state, but not that many."

There are 131 publicly supported spaces dedicated to the Confederacy in Mississippi. I don't know how many of the actual statues are of Jefferson Davis but there are 20 schools, buildings, streets and highways named after Jefferson Davis. And there are 48 Confederate monuments in the state.

Across the States there are at least 1,503 symbols of the Confederacy in public spaces and more than 700 Confederate monuments and statues on public property. The breakdown in the Southern states is as follows: Three states stand out for having far more monuments than others: Virginia (96), Georgia (90), and North Carolina (90). But the other eight states that seceded from the Union have their fair share: Alabama (48), Arkansas (36), Florida (25), Louisiana (37), Mississippi (48), South Carolina (50), Tennessee (43), and Texas (66).

An additional info: there are at least 109 public schools named after prominent Confederates, many with large African-American student populations. How great is that?

Lewis Wetzel said...

. . . and has he never heard of Gordon Lightfoot?
In fact American country music has its roots in Scottish ballads. Some of the older country songs are literally transposed Scots ballads, "Barbara Allen" for example. I don't like Gladwell and I haven't listened to the podcast, but surely he has noticed that Country songs tell a story while most other forms of pop music do not tell a story. Rock songs tend to express feelings without a narrative structure (Concrete Blonde's "Joey" for example).


Paco Wové said...

You may not have noticed, KittyM, but the SPLC doesn't rate particularly highly around here as an authority on things.

buwaya said...

I used to do quite a lot of business in TX, GA and SC.
Still go to TX sometimes.
So I have a reasonably good idea of conditions there.

If you check the census also you will see these all, and nearly all Southern States, are majority white. Though you may have an argument re Texas; you would have to resolve the identities of a large number of part-Mexican people.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Kitty M apparently does not believe the one-time confederate states are capable of self-rule. Enlightened colonial governments must manage their affairs.

Big Mike said...

I see that KittyM only cares about the tender sensitivities of black Americans. Anyone else, and especially them honkies, can just go Eff themselves.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Michael K said...

An additional info: there are at least 109 public schools named after prominent Confederates, many with large African-American student populations. How great is that?

Yes, the left has been winning the culture war fir a while.

That may not help.

We should be asking why these elites insist that violence-prone groups on the American Left—such as Antifa, Occupy, Moveon.org, etc.—are pure as the driven snow, as peaceful as sleeping babes. Obviously it disrupts the narrative to know that the Southern Poverty Law Center inspired gunmen into attempted massacres, including the one in June that critically wounded GOP Rep. Steve Scalise and the 2012 shooting at the Family Research Council. So maintaining the illusion of such groups’ innocence is what allowed Michael Moore to argue in a recent CNN interview that he was promoting a society of “love” while smearing as racist every one of the 60 million Americans who voted for Trump. That’s a rallying cry for national division.

I don't know how long it will go on until the reaction takes over.

buwaya said...

The people I mentioned are Americans all, born that way, and nearly all white. Even Yay Panlilio (who I think was born Murphy, in Colorado). The 26th was a regular US Army regiment.

Jason said...

The people at the Southern Poverty Law Center were idiots.

The spike in statues around 1900 as Civil War veterans who were in their late teens and twenties when they fought in the war were in their sixties and seventies and dying out - especially given life expectancies at the time. They had also amassed enough wealth through their careers that they erected statues commemorating men they respected - especially Lee.

This is something old soldiers do. I bet you'd see a spike in Union civil war monument construction around the same time, but the SPLC is too stupid to point that out.

This was specifically the case with the Lee statue recently removed in Louisiana: At least 12,000 Louisiana troops fought under Lee's command under the nickname the Louisiana Tigers, and developed a reputation as ferocious, hard-hitting shock troops and solid defenders.

Note the Louisiana State University nickname, which is a legacy of that affiliation.




KittyM said...

@Michael "" this issue was a Nazi march against the removal of the statues!" -- "Actually, it wasn't. It was a group of young white men who were whipped into a mild frenzy but an agent provocateur who was an Obama organizer last year."

No, Michael. i'm afraid it was a Nazi march from the beginning.

Charlottesville resident self-described “pro-white” activist Jason Kessler organized the rally to protest the planned removal of a statue of confederate general Robert E. Lee from a park in Charlottesville. Kessler is a member of the Proud Boys, a loose collective of pro-Trump alt-rightists. Speakers included some of the alt-right personalities who have flirted most openly with white nationalism, including Baked Alaska, an internet provocateur who was once the tour manager for fellow internet provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos, as well as self-identified white nationalists like Richard Spencer.

From the beginning, the rally was "Nazified” — with some primarily anti-government “patriot” groups refusing to sign on, and explicitly fascist groups like the National Socialist Movement getting on board instead. According to the Charlottesville police affidavit put out before the rally, planned attendees included the Klan; the militia movement (a right-wing movement that gained traction in the 1990s, whose members include the activists who took over a federal nature reserve in early 2016); the “3%”, a right-wing anti-government movement; the Alt-Knights, an alt-right “fight club”; and others.




Michael K said...

"The rst began around 1900 as Southern states were enacting Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise African Americans and re-segregate society after several decades of integration that followed Reconstruction."

The Confederate veterans were dying then, too. Most of those monuments were paid for by families of those veterans.

The ahistorical left strikes again.

Michael K said...

"No, Michael. i'm afraid it was a Nazi march from the beginning."

No, you idiot. It wasn't.

"Kessler is a member of the Proud Boys, a loose collective of pro-Trump alt-rightists."

Do you even know that Kessler was an Obama supporter and member of "Occupy?"

Why don't you go away and read some history before you comment again ?

I know, you are sent here by the seminar.

Jason said...

FWIW, yes, I'm one of those history nuts who read all three volumes of Lee's Lieutenants, by D.S. Southall Freeman, as well as the abridged version of Southall Freeman's biography of Lee - among many other books.

I'm glad the Union won, and the Confederacy was decisively defeated. Lee was the best general in the Northern Virginia Theater until Grant showed up. Grant proved himself to be the better general, over time, having achieved several turnarounds by the time he showed up with Meade directing operations in Northern Virginia.

I'm glad the Confederacy was decisively defeated. But people who blame the soldiers for the wars they fight in are idiots.

buwaya said...

The students in high schools named for heroes should be taught that they belong to the tribe of said heroes.

Thus they will be taught virtue. Lysander of Sparta, final victor of the Pelopponesian war, was a mothax after all, not a true Spartan, but he embodied its virtues regardless. Let these black boys be your Southern mothakes.

A good portion of their genetics goes back to that tribe after all.

buwaya said...

Right wing radicals, as you named them Kitty, are not Nazis. There are all sorts of groups. If I showed up with a bunch of radical Catholic Carlists, what would we be called?

Jason said...

The cultural vandals destroying statutes and monuments are a paper tiger. There's nothing behind them, and they quickly alienated the large majority of the public because of their obnoxiousness and sheer narcissism.

It's easy to tell: Who tore down that Confederate statue in Durham? It wasn't some vast groundswell of ordinary Americans, or even Democrats (who put them up in the first place.) The people actually doing the dirty work were avowed communists and public apologists for North Korea.

The media are being led around by the nose by the dumbest, most radical and destructive 10 percent.

KittyM said...

@Paco Wové "You may not have noticed, KittyM, but the SPLC doesn't rate particularly highly around here as an authority on things."

Thanks. I think I had noticed that.

But this report is really mostly just numbers and historical facts. You can read it and might still think "Let's keep the monuments!" but it is worth understanding the size of the issue.

@Jason "This is something old soldiers do. I bet you'd see a spike in Union civil war monument construction around the same time, "

I'm sorry, your argument is unconvincing as it doesn't explain the spike in erecting monuments in the second major period which began in the mid-1950s and lasted until the late 1960s, the period encompassing the modern civil rights movement.

Also - it doesn't explain why the Northern Union side didn't erect an equal number of monuments to *their* soldiers.

Jason said...

You do understand, and I say this quite humbly as a first-generation American myself born here, that it takes several generations before you are truly viewed as an American-American... and even longer for those with darker skins.

Yeah, you're nuts.

Liberals are always projecting their own inane, vile bigotry on normal people.

Paco Wové said...

It seems to me that if we are really interested in promoting the big beautiful diverse rainbow of America etc. that there should be a move to add statues, statues for the previously under-represented parts of the populace, rather than memory-hole the exising monuments. I would hope the new statues would be tastefully done, though given current artistic sensibilities I have grave doubts. But I am willing to sacrifice my own tastes in the name of the greater good.

Jason said...

I'm sorry, your argument is unconvincing as it doesn't explain the spike in erecting monuments in the second major period which began in the mid-1950s and lasted until the late 1960s, the period encompassing the modern civil rights movement.

Oh, I can explain it.

Democrats are vile fecking racists.

buwaya said...

I am Spanish actually, and all the kids are dual.
We are a tribe of professional expats, and the bitter lesson we have all learned is to be prepared to decamp. I have just done a good bit of hedging against US domestic unrest. We have close relatives all over.

Anyway, my suggested monuments are for American-Americans, which some of us remember even if the actual Americans dont.

buwaya said...

Mary, the common one is Flip, but its become endearing.
The in-tribe term is Pinoy.

They have names for such as you as well.

wholelottasplainin said...

antiphone said...


Thanks Mark, by the way who elected you as the spokesman for African Americans?

***************

More to the point: who elected YOU??? How can you claim on the one hand to "only know what I think" while arguing that others can't only know what they think?

Where's your privileged all-knowing, all-seeing perspective? Can you share it with us?

************


antiphone said...
It is presumptuous to think that black southerners are of a single mind or outlook on the Civil War or anything else. I suspect on the balance, black southerners who have given thought to this might be thinking "why are all these white people going crazy about statues now?"

It really is heartwarming to see the black point of view so well represented here, by folks who know what they think

************************************

I suspect you glossed over the "I suspect" in Oso Negro's comment.

n.n said...

Damn you "reasonable" conservatives/moderates will "reasonable" yourself & the country into a new 21st Century USSR.

Not the USSR. The good Americans are deferring to national socialists who bask in color diversity that denies individual dignity; in Pro-Choice/abortion, ironically justified under a layer of privacy, including selective-child that denies intrinsic value, human rights, and human evolution; Planned Parenthood et al that operates Mengele-like clinics to carry out clinical cannibalism of lives deemed profitable; in redistributive change because the "Jews" have too much; in global anti-nativism carried out in elective wars and CAIR (catastrophic anthropogenic immigration reform including refugee crises forced by "clean" wars) policies.

diversity is why there’s so much innovation in rock and roll, says Gladwell

Individual or color diversity? The latter is a judgment of people by the "color of their skin", not the content of their character (e.g. merit).

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Jason said...
Democrats are vile fecking racists.


Let's assume fecking is a strong adjective and not a negation, if the Democrats put them all up then it is not unreasonable for the Democrats to take them all down again. If they own it, then, they own it.

Jason said...

Also - it doesn't explain why the Northern Union side didn't erect an equal number of monuments to *their* soldiers.

By and large, Union soldiers did not hold their commanders in very high regard compared to the confederates. Grant was their best, and at the time he was widely considered a butcher from his Overland Campaign. The other major commanders were not much better. Sherman was alright, but monuments to Sherman would not have been received well had they been built in the areas where he fought his battles, because he was widely despised in those areas. But none of the unionists were fighting much on their home turf.

There are lots of Union monuments to units, though.

KittyM said...

@Michael K "Do you even know that Kessler was an Obama supporter and member of "Occupy?""

It is my understanding that there are rumour in white nationalist forums that before 2016 he *had* some involvement in the Occupy movement and supported for President Obama. I don't know if that's true. But let's assume it was. That was his past.

What we do know is that he is a self-proclaimed white nationalist since 2016. He founded Unity & Security for America, a nativist, white nationalist group which launched their website in February this year. He talks about "the Cultural Marxist hell that is Charlottesville”. That's referring to the conspiracy theory that a group of Jewish leaders escaped Nazi Germany and have since sought to “erode Western values” through cultural influence. He's written for GotNews.com, a website established by white nationalist and internet troll Chuck Johnson.

So - please - don't try to suggest he is a lefty! He invited Mike Enoch of The Right Stuff, Matthew Heimbach of the white nationalist Traditionalist Workers Party, Augustus Invictus, a pagan neo-fascist who has pledged to bring about a second Civil War to speak in Charlottesville. He is very open that he is a white nationalist.

Jason said...

Of course he's a lefty. He's a fascist. Fascists are leftists, by definition.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

You don't know your ancestors Ritmo?

Bertram Hayes-Davis knows hers. And she wants his flag to go.

That's good enough for me.

The rest of these white identity politics hangers-on losers need to give it up and move on. Their leader's "posterity" has spoken.

Time to move on, hereditary monarchist emulators.

n.n said...

Right wing radicals, as you named them Kitty, are not Nazis.

In America, the right is individualist, not socialist, their beliefs span the political spectrum (e.g. from reconciliation to Pro-Choice). The center is conservative and recognizes individuals. The historical and contemporary left have always had selective (i.e. Pro-Choice), collectivist, and color coded philosophies.

buwaya said...

Well, there you go Paco.

I will suggest one, of an interesting subject, Sergeant Calugas, 88th Field Artillery, and his cannon.

KittyM said...

@Jason

And the monuments erected at the time of the Civil Rights movement?

Inga...Allie Oop said...

"So - please - don't try to suggest he is a lefty! He invited Mike Enoch of The Right Stuff, Matthew Heimbach of the white nationalist Traditionalist Workers Party, Augustus Invictus, a pagan neo-fascist who has pledged to bring about a second Civil War to speak in Charlottesville. He is very open that he is a white nationalist."

Michael K loves conspiracy theories almost as much as Alex Jones does. Don't part him from his delusions, he gets testy.

KittyM said...

@Jason Sorry! Didn't see your answer was there already.

But I don't really find your answer - "Oh, I can explain it...Democrats are vile fecking racists." - to be very coherent or convincing.

It makes more sense that many white Southerners in positions of political power - whether Democrats or Republicans - didn't öiek civil rights and reacted badly to the rise of equality by African-Americans.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Jenny Horne, too.

Sorry I mixed up the genders on that one, trans-phobes.

KittyM said...

@Unknown "Michael K loves conspiracy theories almost as much as Alex Jones does. Don't part him from his delusions, he gets testy."

Really? Oh, ok, got it!

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Michael K loves conspiracy theories almost as much as Alex Jones does. Don't part him from his delusions, he gets testy.

He should consider the conspiracy theory that there was something in his nursemaid's breast milk that made him this way.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

"Of course he's a lefty. He's a fascist. Fascists are leftists, by definition."

"Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism,[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce,[3] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before it spread to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[4][5]"


buwaya said...

But little Bertram is just one fellow, and there are a horde of his compatriots who disagree with him.

And, I need to point out, that there is no point to life without some overwhelming connection to something. There is no point to struggle, without a family, clan, tribe or God.

A man with no antecedents, with no source, has nothing. He is a particle without purpose, without obligation, and cannot be satisfied.

Anonymous said...

KittyM: But here is an interesting link for you: https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/whoseheritage_splc.pdf

You're a bit behindhand, KittyM. This "interesting" information was trotted out a few days ago a by another poster (Nyamujal, iirc). (Like you, he also thinks he's enlightening the rubes with links from short-bus lefty publications.) Another poster, Young Hegelian I believe, patiently explained its flawed history and flawed reasoning.

If you're interested in being taken seriously, y'all should at least take turns in presenting This Week's Ronco-matic Propaganda Points, and try to vary them a bit. Better yet, you could take the trouble to read serious history from a variety of viewpoints, instead of uncritically consuming and parroting the "history" put out by partisan organizations, particularly those on the scam-artist level of the SPLC.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

But little Bertram is just one fellow, and there are a horde of his compatriots who disagree with him.

Fuck them. They're not descended from the people who made the decisions that they want to honor.

Just stop being a white identity politics noob, already. Go keep that shit back in the Pilipenis.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

"You're a bit behindhand, KittyM. This "interesting" information was trotted out a few days ago a by another poster (Nyamujal, iirc). (Like you, he also thinks he's enlightening the rubes with links from short-bus lefty publications."

Only links from Breitbart and Info Wars will be taken seriously here!

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

And, I need to point out, that there is no point to life without some overwhelming connection to something. There is no point to struggle, without a family, clan, tribe or God.

I notice you leave any connection to an idea or ideal completely out of it. That's what most people fight for nowadays.

You would make a good zombie.

The war between the states divided families up and down the country. Just fuck off already with your dangerous ignorance.

buwaya said...

1960s - centennial of the US Civil War. A natural time for memorials.

Bruce Cattons "Centennial History" was just that, published 1961-65. A most substansive memorial in itself.

It was the best general history until Shelby Footes, and is still good as a counterpoint.

KittyM said...

I'm off now, but I wanted one last time to invite Professor Althouse to respond to my original comment. Or to have one of the commenters here to really engage with that issue.

I find that often here the conversation meanders away from the main point - whether deliberately or not.

Professor Althouse wrote a comment here extolling the virtue of accepting complexity and understanding many historical sides. So my question remains: isn't it a problem that her own posts on this very subject are so remarkably one-sided? Wouldn't it fit more with her own espoused views to show more than one perspective? To even simply mention that there the heritage and history being discussed here includes African-Americans? Whose "ancestors" (to use the term from the original post) suffered and died in slavery, perpetuated by white people in the Southern states. That's a very big deal, a very good reason to find the monuments abhorrent.

How can someone who states very clearly that she believes in knowing *more* and in more detail about history look at her own posts on this subject and not feel a bit ... ashamed?

Inga...Allie Oop said...

"I'm off now, but I wanted one last time to invite Professor Althouse to respond to my original comment."

Good luck.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

So my question remains: isn't it a problem that her own posts on this very subject are so remarkably one-sided?

Yes. It is.

buwaya said...

Ideals, as in political ones, are false Gods Ritmo.

They are very rarely lived for, only occasionally died for, and are mostly killed for.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

"How can someone who states very clearly that she believes in knowing *more* and in more detail about history look at her own posts on this subject and not feel a bit ... ashamed?"

Good question. How can she not feel ashamed to be a Trump apologist and codependent all these past months?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Ideals, as in political ones, are false Gods Ritmo.

And yet, that's what the war was fought over, dum-dum. As more and more wars have been increasingly fought over.

Like I said, it split families. This was not uncommon. There were confederates up north and unionists down south. This kinfolk shit you keep pushing is false and needs to end. It's just a way to push white identity politics.

Sometimes I think you stuff cotton wool in your ears. I understand you have a semen-worshipping agenda that lionizes bloodlines, but that's not how America works.

Paco Wové said...

"isn't it a problem that her own posts on this very subject are so remarkably one-sided? "

How many sides do you expect one person to have? On this, as on the other topics she writes about, Althouse has a viewpoint, and expresses it. I don't recall seeing her go in for the "on the one hand.... but on the other hand..." style of exposition very much.

If you really want a viewpoint expressed here, and somebody else isn't doing it, then the best person to do it is you.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

And furthermore, 30% of African American DNA is white European. The majority of which undoubtedly got in there from white slaveowner rape of their chattel.

So the real question is, why aren't more white confederates venerating their black slave kinfolk?

I mean, as long as we're following buwaya putt's semen-worshipping agenda.

Maybe he should do less lingam and more yoni.

Paco Wové said...

P.S. I don't think commenters trying to shame Althouse into a particular behavior is a tactic with a strong track record of success.

SukieTawdry said...

Miss Kitty might consider a thought experiment with herself to explore the possibility that she is actually boring.

buwaya said...

Which opens the question of what is wrong with having white nationalists?

If one can have black nationalists, Chicano nationalists, even Mexican irredentists and generic "Asian" nationalists, absurd as that sounds it is a thing, why not white ones? There are hordes of political groupiscules of every degree of sanity, so why not radical nationalist ones, however unhinged?

Fair is fair, turnabout is fair play, sauce for the goose, etc.

Michael K said...

" look at her own posts on this subject and not feel a bit ... ashamed?"

I would recommend the same to you.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

I'm not trying to shame her into doing anything. I'm merely expressing my opinion on her opinions. Is that no longer allowed here?

Paco Wové said...

Of course we can express our opinions. I'm merely expressing my opinion that your "shame!" insinuations are silly and childish, and make you sound like a gossipy old fishwife.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Which opens the question of what is wrong with having white nationalists?

Everything.

If one can have black nationalists, Chicano nationalists, even Mexican irredentists and generic "Asian" nationalists, absurd as that sounds it is a thing.

When they have the power to start implementing the policing and legal regime that the white nationalists have abused the citizens with, then we can address it as if it were a real problem.

buwaya said...

There you go Ritmo, you have found my previous post.

The Spartans had a class of part-Spartiate non-citizens descended from their helots, the mothakes. These were raised and trained with their Spartan brothers and cousins.

Lysander, the greatest soldier ever produced by Sparta, was a mothax. Ref Plutarch's Lives, but you really should read Kagan on the Pelopponesian War.

Why should not black Americans embrace their white heritage, and become mothakes? Join, dont oppose.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

"Of course we can express our opinions. I'm merely expressing my opinion that your "shame!" insinuations are silly and childish, and make you sound like a gossipy old fishwife."

That's humorous coming from you, after you doing exactly that yourself. Who put an apron on you and told you to scold the visitors?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Why should not black Americans embrace their white heritage -

Probably because they were rapists, who kept their kin in bondage, who attacked the United States and gave way to the devastating loss of 600,000 American lives, and continue to divide the country today.

But I'm sure those aren't good enough reasons to a uselessly contrarian clod like yourself.

buwaya said...

But Ritmo, these are black-run cities and the white nationalists have no political power, being opposed, indeed oppressed, by the immensity of the corporatist system. They are more oppressed than the black and Chicano groups as they arent even being bought off.

Now thats unfair. The nerve. A tribal pressure group not getting bribed.

buwaya said...

So were the fathers of the mothakes. Helots, remember?

It just takes a twist in the mind -like so.

And instead of a nameless helot one is Lysander of Sparta, with a good long bit in Plutarch.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

But Ritmo, these are black-run cities and the white nationalists have no political power-

Except for the better resources with which to leave and flee to the much nicer suburbs, which is all the power that anyone needs.

It would be funny to see someone as clueless as yourself agitate for repatriation or reparations for those urban properties.

Most cities today have very nice and heavily demanded residential neighborhoods.

Have you ever made a point against me that stood? Why is it so hard for you to learn?

You just like opposing anything that makes sense, I think. Or you just have a huge chip on your shoulder against me.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

So were the fathers of the mothakes. Helots, remember?

Nah, I don't. And neither should you, much as you hate what Western civilization actually IS.

What it isn't is living in the past.

Jon Ericson said...

Pedro is trying very hard, isn't he?

buwaya said...

IIRC, the Union soldiers fought for their country, their tribe, much as the Southern ones did. Merely different conceptions of their country.

Not for some nebulous International Socialism.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Pedro is trying very hard, isn't he?

And WINNING!

Which is something you've never done.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

IIRC, the Union soldiers fought for their country, their tribe, much as the Southern ones did.

Nonsense, you fuzzy talker. Their concept of country went much deeper than tribe.

Not for some nebulous International Socialism.

Whatever this is supposed to mean.

Just another one of those ad hoc nonsense talking points that you throw out there whenever your irrelevance to the conversation actually starts sinking in.

buwaya said...

Mary,

Then change the one-drop rule. They dont have that rule in Brazil, or Mexico. There is nothing sacred about that rule. It is a very very stupid rule. You all, on both sides, have spent generations worshiping that rule. Instead of removing it, "civil rights" has made it sacred. That is truly mad.

And I am not American at all. If trouble comes, off we go.

Paco Wové said...

The Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument strikes me as an example of how adding to our monuments and memorials, rather than blotting them out, can provide a much richer appreciation of history. Originally designated as a national cemetery and devoted exclusively to U.S. Army soldiers killed there, it was eventually transformed into a memorial site for all participants in the battle, Indian and U.S., and provides a good sense of the complexities of the history involved.

Earnest Prole said...

So why did they take Virgil's Very Best Wood?

The same reason they took your very best wood: to make you a eunuch.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

buwaya said...

Ritmo,

I am a patient man, and persist.

The municipality of Charlottesville, and the State of Virginia and the US Government, assembled as a mass nearby, all are enemies of those poor pathetic white nationalists. The power imbalance, as all these radical folk like to bring up, is completely against them, absurdly so, more so than ever the black or chicano nationalists ever were, as these all have always had at least a few powerful friends.

They are the underdogs of underdogs. It seems quite unfair really.

Jon Ericson said...

Oh, Jeez, Laurence and Ann went to bed.
NTTAWWT.
Or, maybe they're watching the boob tube.
Is that big fight tonight?
Seja respeitoso e não insulte seus superiores intelectuais.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

Buwaya is pretty sly. He just stirs the political pot to see Americans fighting one another with an end of civil war in mind. Why doesn't he go home to the Phillipines and fight his battles there?

Jon Ericson said...

Joy!

Big Mike said...

Well, KittyM is off now, but she thoughtfully leaves behind a homework assignment for Althouse -- a Professor Emerita who held an endowed chair -- and we among her commentators who are deplorables.

How quaint.

As Peggy Noonan put it, we are being talked down to by our inferiors.

Clark said...

@buwaya -- I just want to say that I for one welcome you in these comments, and I would be honored to have you as a compatriot. If push ever comes to shove, I hope to find your tent pitched next to mine.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

"compatriot"

com·pa·tri·ot
kəmˈpātrēət/Submit
noun
a fellow citizen or national of a country.


He'd have to become a citizen of this country first to be your compatriot.

Ralph L said...

Ambrose said...
"Like my father before me, I will work the land." For more that 40 years I thought it was, and sang along to, "I'm a working man."

Me too. I think the radio version might be different.

I'd like to see a poll of how many commenters here consider themselves Southerners (as opposed to living in the South), Yankees, Midwesterners, Leftcoasters, etc.

buwaya said...

But I am not quite done looting your country!
Just a bit more now and I will retire from looting, and be a mere leech.

The last thing I want to see is a civil war. Its very bad for the 401Ks and other investments not yet shifted, the pensions and SS, and then there are the property values, Oy!

And the fact that its damned difficult to hedge against trouble in the US. Thats the last thing anybody wants, even its enemies, as that will be a global depression to end all depressions, and the fallout of that may well be ... fallout.

n.n said...

The first act divided men and women, women and women, normal and chauvinist. They tried to paint Trump as a social liberal and separate him from his base.

The second act unified men and women in opposition to a common enemy: Soviets. They tried to paint Trump as a communist sympathizer in an appeal to latent memories of a cold war and Western heroes.

The third act has progressed to cast men against women against men against their children, parents, grandparents, etc. They try to divide people along class lines, specifically color diversity, and cast American against American in an effort to undermine reconciliation and marginalize America and Americans.

Subversion from within is insidious. Still, Americans will not voluntarily give up their families, homes, businesses, communities, and nation. So, they persist. Will there be a fourth act?

Jason said...

Yes, some miseducated simpleton always makes an ass of themselves by posting to a dictionary definition of fascism that claims that fascism is usually placed on the right side of the political spectrum. This is because most idiots flinging the term"fascism" around in the modern era are completely ignorant of the roots of fascism and its key foundational documents, dogmas and personalities.

Just what does a delegate to Marxist conventions in Switzerland, the editor of the official newspaper of the Socialist Party of Italy, former secretary of the Socialist Party of Italy, author of the 1919 fascisti platform advocating socialist economic policies and author of "Trent As Seen by a Socialist have to do convince America's dumbest people that he was a socialist and therefore a leftist?

It's a mystery.

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