Althouse: Robert Zimmerman interview.

March 29, 2012

Robert Zimmerman interview.

"All of our family, everyone who knows George, knows absolutely that is George screaming. There's no doubt in anyone's mind."

402 comments:

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damikesc said...: How bizarre to continue to call for a trial when you think everyone is lying.

Garage doesn't think EVERYBODY is lying.

Just anybody whose information doesn't match his preferred narrative.; 3/29/12, 1:23 PM
Rick67 said...: @Christopher in MA - Thank you. Very well said indeed. Reminds me of blogger Within The Black Community.; 3/29/12, 1:24 PM
damikesc said...: The surveillance video was timestamped 35 minutes after Zimmerman shot Martin. He's a miraculously quick healer.

My broken nose wouldn't have been noticeable 35 minutes later.

It took 2 DAYS for swelling to become noticeable. It was minimal (I could feel it, but a photo from more than near point-blank range wouldn't show it) until then.; 3/29/12, 1:25 PM
edutcher said...: A little something on ABC's handling of the vid, which seems to intentionally obfuscate the issue.

Follow the links to the Daily Caller story.; 3/29/12, 1:25 PM
Love said...: damikesc "I broke my nose and the swelling was minimal until 2 or so days later. Eyes didn't get blackened either."

Get real.

Zimmerman says the kid broke his nose and beat the back of his head into the concrete. Did you see any evidence of that in the video? How about his clothes? See any blood from the broken nose?

And the funeral director says the kid had no cuts or abrasions on his hands that would indicate a fistfight.; 3/29/12, 1:25 PM
Michael said...: Garage: I don't think there is anything here for you to worry about. History of this is already written as a white guy stalking and killing a black child in the tradition of the deep south from time immemorial. Truth to power and you are a part of it and you can feel better about yourself for it.; 3/29/12, 1:27 PM
I Callahan said...: Garage,

That video shows nothing it's so grainy.

Here is the latest on that:

Could ABC have doctored the video?; 3/29/12, 1:28 PM
damikesc said...: I admit; that video increases my suspicion that things weren't the same as Zimmerman said

Wouldn't be a first. Suspects rarely give all of the facts --- even if legitimately not trying to hide anything --- immediately after the incident. The mind can take some time to fully process what happened.

but there are two witnesses saying he was pinned and being beaten.

Which is pretty damning. Multiple people say he was down. Hard to say it didn't happen --- especially when they have no vested interest in saying it.

Maybe it was a small break and in the heat of being beaten he thought he was getting it worse than he did? I dunno, but the video alone is only enough to murky the issue more, not prove it one way or the other.

It certainly gives Zimmerman supporters something to consider though.

I haven't seen many Zimmerman supporters. Much of the "support" is a disdain for mob rule and vigilante "justice".; 3/29/12, 1:28 PM
Love said...: edutcher - You're full of shit...and so is the creep who blogs about ABC doing something nefarious or wrong.

I've watched the entire video, nothing is obstructed or covered up and there certainly is no evidence of any scar on the back of his head.

One of the officers even takes a look at the back of Zimmerman's head and his reaction isn't one of concern about any injuries.; 3/29/12, 1:29 PM
Matt Sablan said...: Love -- He'd show no concern because the wound had been treated.

Watch as he pats Zimmerman down. After touching the back of his jacket, he wipes his hand off. That, to me at least, makes me think his back is still wet.

... is it sad I noticed that?; 3/29/12, 1:31 PM
damikesc said...: Get real.

It was MY nose. I can certainly say what happened far better than you can.

Zimmerman says the kid broke his nose and beat the back of his head into the concrete.

Eyewitnesses seem to corroborate that, as do police reports.

Did you see any evidence of that in the video?

...from a grainy video taken later after he had been treated? Not surprisingly, no.

How about his clothes? See any blood from the broken nose?

Again...from a grainy video taken later after he had been treated? Not surprisingly, no.

And the funeral director says the kid had no cuts or abrasions on his hands that would indicate a fistfight.

Are there any pictures of the hands anywhere?; 3/29/12, 1:31 PM
Love said...: Matthew - When would the "wound" have been treated? There is no evidence of any stops at a hospital, and where is the blood from the broken nose? Did they also stop to do Zimmerman's laundery on the way in to the station?; 3/29/12, 1:33 PM
Matt Sablan said...: How much damage do hands sustain when punching someone? I've been in fistfights and my hands were fine afterwards; even when sparring or using a punching bag when I was younger (though, in the last ones, you usually protect your hands, so it is different).

If it was just one punch to the face and then he grabbed Zimmerman's head to hit it into the concrete, no injuries on Martin's hands makes sense.; 3/29/12, 1:34 PM
damikesc said...: When would the "wound" have been treated?

At the scene, from what has been reported frequently.

There is no evidence of any stops at a hospital

I didn't go to a hospital for a few days after I broke my nose since the bleeding stopped fairly quickly. Wasn't even sure it was broken until it started swelling --- 2 days later.

You can be treated on the scene and decline a hospital trip.; 3/29/12, 1:35 PM
Matt Sablan said...: "Matthew - When would the "wound" have been treated? There is no evidence of any stops at a hospital, and where is the blood from the broken nose? Did they also stop to do Zimmerman's laundery on the way in to the station?"

-- The wound was treated at the scene, per the police report.

As for no blood on him, that is a good question. Maybe it just doesn't show up on the video; maybe he changed; maybe he had his jacket closed and unzipped it after the shooting. I don't have an answer for that question, I admit.; 3/29/12, 1:36 PM
Brian Brown said...: garage mahal said...
I broke my nose and the swelling The surveillance video was timestamped 35 minutes after Zimmerman shot Martin

Huh?

Not according to MSNBC:

It was taken about four hours after the deadly incident.

You get your "facts" from a magical place, garbage...; 3/29/12, 1:38 PM
Love said...: damikesc "Eyewitnesses seem to corroborate that, as do police reports."

You've read the police reports?

And as for eyewitnesses, there are all kinds of people coming forward...one of which says that the instant the shot was fired...the screaming stopped.

And why didn't Zimmerman stoppped dealing with the kid after being told he did not have to by the dispatcher?

I think he was looking for trouble and he ended up tragically killing a kid.

Why do you so stridently support Zimmerman's account of the situation?; 3/29/12, 1:39 PM
Brian Brown said...: Love said...
Matthew - When would the "wound" have been treated? There is no evidence of any stops at a hospital, and where is the blood from the broken nose

Zimmerman was treated by an SFD paramedic at the scene.

This is documented in the police report.

Stop asking stupid questions.; 3/29/12, 1:39 PM
Brian Brown said...: Love said...

You've read the police reports?

Yes. They are available online you know.; 3/29/12, 1:40 PM
Matt Sablan said...: "And why didn't Zimmerman stoppped dealing with the kid after being told he did not have to by the dispatcher?"

-- Because he makes bad decisions.

That doesn't matter; what matters is who started the physical altercation.; 3/29/12, 1:40 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: @Curious George

That's pretty funny. I got a hoot from an earlier thread when Freder replied to me that Zimmerman didn't look like a typical Hispanic.; 3/29/12, 1:40 PM
Love said...: Jay - Are you saying that a broken nose wouldn't be evident four hours after being broken?

No swelling, no black eyes, no blood?

Immaculate healing?

The whole fight bullshit is to set up a defense story.; 3/29/12, 1:41 PM
Matt Sablan said...: "And as for eyewitnesses, there are all kinds of people coming forward...one of which says that the instant the shot was fired...the screaming stopped"

-- Makes sense. If I shot the man attacking me, I'd stop screaming too. Or, if I were shot (and killed instantly), I'd also stop screaming. No matter who was screaming, that evidence doesn't help.; 3/29/12, 1:41 PM
Brian Brown said...: there are all kinds of people coming forward...one of which says that the instant the shot was fired...the screaming stopped.

People who are shot dead usually don't scream.; 3/29/12, 1:44 PM
Love said...: Matthew "Because he makes bad decisions."

No shit?

You think following a kid and then getting yourself into a situation where you end up killing him...relates to making "bad decisions?"

The "right" decision would have been to do what the dispatcher told him to do.

Why all of the huffing and puffing here in defense of Zimmerman?

They guy made over 40 911 calls...certaily indicating he had a problem.

*Anybody ever see how many 911 calls were made by others in the neighborhood? Anything close to Zimmerman? Anybody else patrol the neighborhood packing a 9MM?; 3/29/12, 1:45 PM
Brian Brown said...: Love said...
Jay - Are you saying that a broken nose wouldn't be evident four hours after being broken?

It is certainly possible.

All broken noses aren't the same.

I'm guessing you've never had one.

But you like see it on tv & stuff.; 3/29/12, 1:46 PM
Brian Brown said...: The "right" decision would have been to do what the dispatcher told him to do.

Um, you have no evidence that didn't happen.

Especially since Zimmerman's response to the dispatcher was "OK" and he then told police he was returning to his vehicle.; 3/29/12, 1:47 PM
Love said...: Jay "People who are shot dead usually don't scream."

Really? Are you daft?

That's the whole point.

If it was Martin who was screaming...not Zimmerman...he would certainly stop after being shot dead.

Ya think??; 3/29/12, 1:47 PM
Brian Brown said...: And why didn't Zimmerman stoppped dealing with the kid after being told he did not have to by the dispatcher?

According to Zimmerman he was trying to reach for his cell phone after returning to his vehicle and was punched by Martin.

So your point is _____?; 3/29/12, 1:48 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: "... Matthew - When would the "wound" have been treated?."

There are these cool dudes called paramedics who respond to these types of incidents.; 3/29/12, 1:48 PM
Love said...: Jay - He never told the dispatcher he was returning to his vehicle.

You're full of shit.; 3/29/12, 1:48 PM
Matt Sablan said...: Let's go, piece by piece, Love.

A) The "right" decision would have been to do what the dispatcher told him to do.
--> I agree! Unfortunately, he did not. That doesn't mean he must submit to being beaten, however. Nor is it an invitation to be attacked. Being dumb isn't a license for someone else to take advantage of you.

B) They guy made over 40 911 calls...certaily indicating he had a problem.
--> 40 calls over a decade (the initial report of forty within the current year [that is, about 2.5 months when reported] was incorrect) is... believable in a high crime neighborhood if one is or fancies oneself the neighborhood watch. Also, note, that they were not 911 calls from what I heard, but to the non-emergency line.

C) *Anybody ever see how many 911 calls were made by others in the neighborhood? Anything close to Zimmerman? Anybody else patrol the neighborhood packing a 9MM?
--> Merely carrying a weapon legally is not cause for suspicion. Nor is the fact he observed and acted on more suspicious things than his neighbors.

D) You think following a kid and then getting yourself into a situation where you end up killing him...relates to making "bad decisions?"
--> Yeah. That's a bad decision. It certainly isn't a good one. You could get theatrical, describe it as something else. But, down to it? Bad decision.; 3/29/12, 1:49 PM
Brian Brown said...: Love said...

That's the whole point.

If it was Martin who was screaming...not Zimmerman...he would certainly stop after being shot dead.

Ya think??

And if it were Zimmerman who were screaming, there would be no reason for him to scream after firing the weapon.

Duh.; 3/29/12, 1:49 PM
Brian Brown said...: Love said...
Jay - He never told the dispatcher he was returning to his vehicle.

I didn't say he told the dispatcher that idiot.

I said he told the police.

Duh.; 3/29/12, 1:50 PM
Brian Brown said...: Love said...
Jay - He never told the dispatcher he was returning to his vehicle.

What is even more comical is you're like troll shift #3.

All of these stupid points have already been raised in the other comments and yet you bring them up again.

Zimmerman told the police at the police station during questioning he was returning to his vehicle.

No sputter your next stupid comment.; 3/29/12, 1:51 PM
Roger J. said...: the good news is that Mr Z eliminated a social problem that someone would have had to deal with in the future. That is, in itself, a positive outcome.

Appears to me that too many commenters rely on CSI or stay at holiday inns, and have no idea what they are talking about.

One of the paragraphs is sarcasm, and one of them is not.; 3/29/12, 1:51 PM
Love said...: Hoosier - So these super paramedics who appeared on the scene (and I realize they did)...they repaired a broken nose and whatever other damage from Zimmerman's head being bashed into the concrete, cleaned up the resulting blood, made sure hie eyes didn't blacken and all was well...four hours later?

No tape over his nose, no bloodstains on his clothing?

I've had a broken nose...and it ain't pretty...and people with broken noses are in plenty of pain.

Zimmerman displayed nothing of the kind.; 3/29/12, 1:52 PM
Roger J. said...: Love/Jeremy/LOS--I hate to break this to you, but these medical questions are easily verified and will, if the case goes forward, will be a matter of public record.

Why dont you spare us your Marcus Welby MD bullshit.; 3/29/12, 1:55 PM
garage mahal said...: You get your "facts" from a magical place, garbage...

Yes, from the actual video here. Just before 8:00pm; 3/29/12, 1:56 PM
Love said...: Jay - I didn't set the alarm clock so I could be the first on the block...and I didn't read through all of the previous comments.

I'm merely offering my opinion, and refuting what I believe to be biased bullshit on your part and others.

I think Zimmerman stepped over the line, should have listened to the dispatcher, and now he'll face whatever the consequences of the investigation...or he'll be proven correct in his actions.

But...

The first investigator on the scene wanted to immediately arrest Zimmerman and was told to not do so.

Do YOU or others here know more than he did about what he found?

And please...this crap that Zimmerman somehow was all over having his nose broken, had no blood on his clothes, no tape over the wound, and no apparent damage to the back of his head...is ridiculous.

People who have just been involved in life and death struggles don't look like he did in the video.; 3/29/12, 1:58 PM
Matt Sablan said...: If the video's timestamp is wrong, I see a few options.

1) It is just flat out wrong: It is possible the video was doctored

2) It is actually correct; we have the wrong time of the shooting

3) It is actually correct, but our previous information was incorrect; we have the wrong time he was taken to the police station.

I can't check that the timestamp is indeed wrong; but are there other options?; 3/29/12, 2:00 PM
damikesc said...: I had a broken nose, Love. Took a metal shelf off the second floor to the face. I didn't swell. Eyes didn't blacken. Bleeding stopped fairly quickly. I was able to go to a party that night. All broken noses aren't the same and not all people show injury identically.; 3/29/12, 2:01 PM
SDN said...: You mean the video ABC doctored to fit the Left Narrative?; 3/29/12, 2:03 PM
Love said...: Roger - So after viewing the video, you feel you've just seen a man who was in a life and death struggle, had his nose broken, the back of his head bashed into concrete, and of course also shot someone to death?

Immaculate healing powers? He didn't need to seek any further medical attention whatsoever? Didn't need to have photos taken...you know...for future reference?

And if he did...why would they not immediately release them to calm the situation??

Ever have your nose broken, Rog?

I doubt it.; 3/29/12, 2:04 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: "... Hoosier - So these super paramedics who appeared on the scene (and I realize they did).."

You previously asked when the wounds would have been treated. I replied when the paramedics arrived.; 3/29/12, 2:05 PM
Love said...: SDN - You're basing your bullshit on right wing blogs that have no evidence of any "doctoring."; 3/29/12, 2:05 PM
Love said...: Hoosier - Yeah, right...the immaculate paramedic team.

Broken nose...no problem. It's all well.

Back of head bashed into concrete? No problem.

No blood, no bandages...nada.

Maybe they should get some work during the next boxing match in Vegas.

Miracle work indeed.; 3/29/12, 2:07 PM
Roger J. said...: No jeremy/love/lso--never had my nose broken--but I have been shot and wasnt aware that I had been shot until a few hours later--adrenalin does its job--keeps you going. But tell me, jeremy: you dont think that a medical opinion can confirm if Mr Z in fact had a broken nose? I have no idea, nor really do I give a shit. It would be part of a discovery process.

Read more, talk less; 3/29/12, 2:08 PM
damikesc said...: Love, you keep ignoring somebody which broke their nose and was basically fine 10 minutes later. I know you have your narrative you are married to, but as usual, you couldn't be less accurate.; 3/29/12, 2:10 PM
edutcher said...: Love said...

edutcher - You're full of shit...and so is the creep who blogs about ABC doing something nefarious or wrong.

I've watched the entire video, nothing is obstructed or covered up and there certainly is no evidence of any scar on the back of his head

Then Love (surprise!!!!) didn't follow the links.

(they might blow his/her/its whole scam)

In vaudeville, they called that flop sweat. All the other trolls are being shot down, so they bring out one, like Jeremy, who goes all rapid fire to try to knock down everybody's argument.

Ad hominem isn't rebuttal and the wound is there in the still, but who needs facts, right?

As for broken cartilege, et al., I once did my ankle playing soccer one afternoon in school and it just hurt that evening.

About two in the AM, however, my foot had blown up to about twice its size, so all the Lefty Ben Caseys out there have either never been hurt or just keep singing, "La la la la la, I can't hear you".

damikesc is right. It takes time for things like swelling.; 3/29/12, 2:10 PM
Love said...: Zimmerman - The man with immaculate healing powers and no blood.

GFL with that.

If he had a broken nose or other injuries his defense attorney would have them front and center.

Explain why he doesn't.

And if not...shouldn't Zimmerman get himself a better attorney?; 3/29/12, 2:13 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: I can't really see much in the video.

That said, Zimmerman should not have followed him around. Assuming Zimmermam is telling the truth and Martin got in his face then Martin acted stupidly. If I'm being stalked on my way home, I'd get there ASAP not confront a potentially hostile person. If I'm walking home and being stalked, I would call the cops and not my girlfriend.

Neighborhood Watch should mean reporting suspicious activity not following suspected criminals. If they break in your home, then kill them.

My castle rule is that if you come in my home uninvited that last thing you'll hear is BANG.; 3/29/12, 2:15 PM
Love said...: Show me the pictures of Zimmerman's injuries.

Nice close ups any decent attorney would have plastered all over the internet and in every newspaper in the country.

That is...if there are actual injuries.

Until then; I'm not buying it.; 3/29/12, 2:16 PM
Roger J. said...: Well Jeremy/LOS/Love--it appears that Mr Z has not been charged with anything and does not have to present any evidence-You really are not the sharpest tool in the shed.; 3/29/12, 2:17 PM
Matt Sablan said...: "If he had a broken nose or other injuries his defense attorney would have them front and center.

Explain why he doesn't.

And if not...shouldn't Zimmerman get himself a better attorney?"

-- Because he's not on trial. Once they come at him with a charge, then defend him, in court. Until then, there's no need to satiate the curiosity of the masses, who will never be convinced.

Two witnesses saw him getting beaten down; the police report confirms this story -- but all of those are lies. You wouldn't believe it if a video showed Zimmerman to be completely innocent; you'd still demand he be put through the cost and humiliation of a trial.

Admit that what you really want is a judicial bloodletting.; 3/29/12, 2:17 PM
damikesc said...: If he had a broken nose or other injuries his defense attorney would have them front and center.

He hasn't been charged. Why would he have a defense attorney?

Explain why he doesn't.

The lack of a charge could be a reason.

And if not...shouldn't Zimmerman get himself a better attorney?

Without being charged? What would be the point? Let the prosecution taint the jury pool to a level that a trial would be impossible.

Back of head bashed into concrete? No problem.

I've seen football players with concussions walking around. Video wouldn't show that they have concussions.

Guess since you can't readily see it, they are actually fine.

I suffered a concussion and drove cross country anyway. Didn't know I had one until I noticed I was seeing double a lot.

If others saw me, they would've seen nothing.; 3/29/12, 2:19 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: "... Hoosier - Yeah, right...the immaculate paramedic team..."

You asked when the wounds could have been treated, not on the quality of it. In the future clarify your questions.; 3/29/12, 2:20 PM
Roger J. said...: As Matthew noted above there is no charge against Mr Z--If charged, there appears to be a fair amount of exculpatory evidence in his behalf. So tell me Jeremy/Love/LOS--what legal back do you have in this matter? Did you stay at a holiday inn last nite?; 3/29/12, 2:21 PM
Original Mike said...: "You get your "facts" from a magical place, garbage..."

That magical place would be his ass.; 3/29/12, 2:27 PM
Love said...: damikesc - Craig Sonner is Zimmerman's attorney...so maybe he knows something even YOU don't.

Where are the pictures of the injuries?

Where is the blood?

Where is the bandaged nose?

Where are the black eyes?; 3/29/12, 2:27 PM
Roger J. said...: Love/Jeremy/LOS--remind me what Mr Z has been charged with; as to you laundry list of questions, expert medical testimony, not including pictures, will be exculpatory--read more, watch CSI less.; 3/29/12, 2:31 PM
Love said...: Matthew - I've seen no "police reports" that substantiate the beat down you describe.

Have YOU?

All I've read is accounts provided by people in the area, from both sides, none of which have been "substantiated" or proven to be true.

But I have seen this:

SANFORD (CBSMiami) – New information now contradicts Sanford police chief’s initial claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to arrest George Zimmerman in the murder of 17-year old Trayvon Martin.

Angela Corey, a special prosecutor assigned to case by Gov. Rick Scott, told CBS4 news partner The Miami Herald that early in the investigation police requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s Office.

An incident report on the shooting classified it as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”

See anything about a beat down?; 3/29/12, 2:32 PM
Matt Sablan said...: Love: Do your own homework.; 3/29/12, 2:33 PM
Love said...: Roger - I never said Zimmerman was charged with anyting.

Did I? Why are you lying?

But you can read this and explain why he wasn't:

SANFORD (CBSMiami) – New information now contradicts Sanford police chief’s initial claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to arrest George Zimmerman in the murder of 17-year old Trayvon Martin.

Angela Corey, a special prosecutor assigned to case by Gov. Rick Scott, told CBS4 news partner The Miami Herald that early in the investigation police requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s Office.

An incident report on the shooting classified it as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”; 3/29/12, 2:34 PM
Love said...: Mathew- Just provide these police reports you've seen.

Then I'll discuss them accordingly.; 3/29/12, 2:35 PM
Roger J. said...: Seems to me the ball was in Seminole county DA's office--they concluded not enough evidence to charge--a special state investigator has no standing.; 3/29/12, 2:35 PM
damikesc said...: Craig Sonner is Zimmerman's attorney...so maybe he knows something even YOU don't.

Not following the case that closely. Clearly he isn't worried.

Where are the pictures of the injuries?

Where is the blood?

Where is the bandaged nose?

Where are the black eyes?

Why not ask the police?

I didn't have blackened eyes after my broken nose. Nor did I have to wear a bandage. Bleeding stopped within, maybe, 10 minutes.

Maybe you're just a bit brittle.; 3/29/12, 2:36 PM
Matt Sablan said...: ... They're the reports linked on Wikipedia. The basis for every bit of information in the case we've been discussing.

This is like trying to discuss Macbeth and skipping the part with the witches and killing Duncan. You... you totally skipped the most important parts if you haven't read it.; 3/29/12, 2:39 PM
Roger J. said...: now I am curious given Love/Jeremy/LOS comments--you have yet to tell us what Mr Z is charged with; and now you are asserting some knowledge of medical pathology--where did you acquire this fount of knowledge about facial trauma--I know--you watched CSI last nite; 3/29/12, 2:40 PM
I Callahan said...: I've seen no "police reports" that substantiate the beat down you describe.

You haven't seen any police reports at all. Yet you believe the above didn't really happen.

You want revenge, so let's skip the bullshit: just have the cojones to admit you want to hang this guy based on your feelings, and that you don't care about the law.

Tool.; 3/29/12, 2:41 PM
Roger J. said...: Jeremy/Love/LOS--the fact that you havent seen police reports does not mean they dont exist. It just means you have no idea what the evidence base is. Read a whole lot more and talk a hell of a lot less--; 3/29/12, 2:43 PM
damikesc said...: But you can read this and explain why he wasn't:

This has also been explained, repeatedly, here. You can try reading for yourself.; 3/29/12, 2:45 PM
Brian Brown said...: I'm merely offering my opinion, and refuting what I believe to be biased bullshit on your part and others.

Hysterical.

Um, I've never posted any "biased bullshit" anywhere.

But feel free to offer an example.; 3/29/12, 2:46 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: A Hyatt employee in Lakeland FL was robbed, beaten, choked and raped by a 14 year old thug on March 18th yet zero national outcry over her brutal attack.

Wonder why that is?; 3/29/12, 2:48 PM
Brian Brown said...: ove said...
Zimmerman - The man with immaculate healing powers and no blood.

GFL with that.

If he had a broken nose or other injuries his defense attorney would have them front and center.

Explain why he doesn't

Um, because there is no reason to try the case in the media, maybe?

You understand your stupid "logic" isn't really something a defense attorney needs to respond to, right?; 3/29/12, 2:48 PM
Brian Brown said...: Love said...

The first investigator on the scene wanted to immediately arrest Zimmerman and was told to not do so.

Huh?

The "investigator" who "wanted to arrest" Zimmerman was not at the scene.

You have no basic knowledge of this case at all.

None.; 3/29/12, 2:50 PM
Brian Brown said...: Love said...
Matthew - I've seen no "police reports" that substantiate the beat down you describe.

Then why was Zimmerman bleeding which is documented in the police report?; 3/29/12, 2:51 PM
Brian Brown said...: garage mahal said...
You get your "facts" from a Yes, from the actual video here. Just before 8:00pm

Why is MSNBC lying then?; 3/29/12, 2:54 PM
Bender said...: Where are the pictures of the injuries?
Where is the blood?
Where is the bandaged nose?
Where are the black eyes?

Is it really necessary to have to continue to deal with these dumb asses?

None of these are necessary when you have the POLICE REPORT of the RESPONDING OFFICER, written immediately after the incident, where the police officer reports seeing the bloody injuries to Zimmerman's head and nose.

An incident report on the shooting classified it as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”

That "incident report" is the POLICE REPORT described above, wherein the responding officer reports Zimmerman's injuries.

And it can be read on-line. See the link above.; 3/29/12, 2:54 PM
Roger J. said...: Jeremy/love/LOS it might help you if you understood how the process works. The on scene investigators write their reports which are evaluated by their supervisor--the supervisor evaluates the evidence and makes a recommendation to the district atty--the DA's job is to evaluate the reports and determine if there is sufficient factual evidence to support some type of charge. Clearly, the Seminole county felt there wasnt. Now you may, as I am sure you will, challenge the DA's decision. But your opinion is not dispositive. Should the DA feel there is, then Mr Z would be charged and a grand jury empaneled to evaluate the evidence and refer to trial.

are you really this stupid? the evidence from your postings suggest you are.; 3/29/12, 2:56 PM
Bender said...: I linked to the police reports in my comment here, where you can get other reports and the 911 calls as well. I continue that comment here.; 3/29/12, 2:57 PM
Roger J. said...: When confronted with facts, jeremy/love/los seems to have faded into the interstices of the internet--doubtless looking for talking points on other websites.

Run with big dogs, Jeremy, or stay on the porch.; 3/29/12, 3:06 PM
Kirk Parker said...: shiloh,

"Zimmerman was told by a police [sic] dispatcher not to pursue."

So? We don't (yet) live in that kind of police state, where arbitrary orders from 9/11 operators (over the phone!) have the force of law.; 3/29/12, 3:18 PM
Kirk Parker said...: pogo,

You're right to complain about the militarization of the police, but very much wrong on the citizen-involvement part. To paraphrase the (possibly apocryphal) line from Sir Robert Peel: the police are merely those whom we employ to give full-time attention to what is every citizen's duty.; 3/29/12, 3:18 PM
shiloh said...: "Alex said...

shiloh is with the New Black Panthers, all in favor of a bounty on this guy's head. Fuck you shiloh."

This is one of many reasons Althouse foolishly thinks she has one of the top political blogs on the net.

>

And congrats to the usual conservative suspects who have done a fine job w/irrelevant deflections:

Black Panthers
Sharpton
Jesse Jackson
Spike Lee

etc. etc.

Indeed, as what do they have to do w/whether Zimmerman is a murderer or victim?

Yea, Althouse did a fine job baiting her conservative flock who see the world in black and white. Never any grey area. Rather than rely on the winger nonsense in this thread, I'll let the judicial system take its course, which was halted on the night of Taylor's killing prematurely.; 3/29/12, 3:25 PM
shiloh said...: And briefly scanning the 2nd page of posts would again like to thank Althouse cons for all their irrelevant personal anecdotes re: broken noses and whatnot lol.; 3/29/12, 3:39 PM
Alex said...: Still waiting for shiloh's condemnation of Spike Lee.; 3/29/12, 3:42 PM
Anonymous said...: garage,

Somebody inside the SPD leaked the video. There was nothing to indicate any of that happened to Zimmerman from those tapes. Certainly no broken nose as his father claimed. He's lying.

Actually, you're just a bigot, looking to convict a man without knowing all the facts.

Does "innocent until proven guilty" mean anything to you? Or do you just decide who's guilty, who's lying and ignore all evidence to the contrary?; 3/29/12, 3:45 PM
Matt Sablan said...: "And briefly scanning the 2nd page of posts would again like to thank Althouse cons for all their irrelevant personal anecdotes re: broken noses and whatnot lol. "

-- The anecdotes make sense in context. What was put forward is "all broken noses are like this, which we do not see, therefore, no broken nose." To disprove this, people explained they had suffered broken noses that did not match what Love said all broken noses must be, therefore, it is possible Zimmerman had a broken nose that didn't match what Love insisted it must be.

Blame Love for the silliness, but the response was justified.; 3/29/12, 3:45 PM
Alex said...: Maybe we should make garage go live in Mr. Zimmerman's neighborhood and then he can talk about what's justified and what's not. I don't judge a man until I've walked a mile in his shoes.; 3/29/12, 3:47 PM
Alex said...: notice how every single post by shiloh is infused with a smug sense of superiority. AS though he were some kind of superbeing laughing at us rubes.; 3/29/12, 3:48 PM
damikesc said...: And briefly scanning the 2nd page of posts would again like to thank Althouse cons for all their irrelevant personal anecdotes re: broken noses and whatnot lol.

"Evidence" was provided that he couldn't have broken his nose since they look a certain way.

I pointed out that they don't. I have, you know, my own experience as an example.

Perhaps if Love could make a cogent argument, it wouldn't have taken so long to discuss how a broken nose behaves.; 3/29/12, 3:57 PM
damikesc said...: Indeed, as what do they have to do w/whether Zimmerman is a murderer or victim?

To ignore the circus that the "KILL ZIMMERMAN" crowd has devolved into is to miss a major reason some are questioning the evidence to begin with.

When a group of clowns all agree on a topic, questioning the topic seems to be a solid plan.; 3/29/12, 3:58 PM
mtrobertsattorney said...: What this dubious collection of of riot mongers (Jackson,Sharpton, the New Black Panthers et al)has to do with is planting a conclusive belief in the minds of large numbers of people that Zimmerman is a cold-blooded,racist killer who must be brought to justice one way or another.; 3/29/12, 3:59 PM
shiloh said...: damikesc

No need to rationalize/apologize as irrelevant deflections are the order of the day at conservative blogs ie but, but, but Carter/Clinton.

It's how Republicans roll ...

Again, irrelevant minutiae certainly fills up a thread, but is not relevant to the subject at hand even if cons say it is.; 3/29/12, 4:04 PM
edutcher said...: And briefly scanning the 2nd page of posts would again like to thank Althouse cons for all their irrelevant personal anecdotes re: broken noses and whatnot lol.

Bathtub swabbie, who kicked us off with his presumed guilty and forget about proof, now doesn't want to hear about how broken cartilege really works because it shoots down the "he really wasn't hurt" line of attack.

Facts really are a bitch.

And that's the real LOL.

PS We've gone through all the trolls and now they have to send bathtub swabbie back in.

The Lefties just can't win.; 3/29/12, 4:11 PM
damikesc said...: Again, irrelevant minutiae certainly fills up a thread, but is not relevant to the subject at hand even if cons say it is.

The conservatives here aren't the ones championing a lynch mob to "get" a guy based on laughably ridiculous "evidence".; 3/29/12, 4:14 PM
garage mahal said...: Actually, you're just a bigot, looking to convict a man without knowing all the facts.

I said I think they are lying. Zimmerman, his father, and likely the SPD. I have my reasons, you are free to disagree.; 3/29/12, 4:14 PM
damikesc said...: No need to rationalize/apologize as irrelevant deflections are the order of the day at conservative blogs ie but, but, but Carter/Clinton.

It's how Republicans roll ...

It's not conservatives driving the mob to demand blood for a "crime" that nobody can prove was committed. That would be the race hustlers like Sharpton, Jackson, and the Panthers. It's not conservatives putting an innocent family in danger. That would be hack directors like Spike Lee.

The "evidence" of the crime is being offered and disputed here.

I agree it is silly, but most of the claims of the mob have been silly thus far as is.; 3/29/12, 4:17 PM
Love said...: Where are the photos of Zimmerman's injuries?

Why does his attorney not produce the photos of such injuries?

Because there are no injuries.; 3/29/12, 4:30 PM
Love said...: mtrobertsattorney "What this dubious collection of of riot mongers (Jackson,Sharpton, the New Black Panthers et al)has to do with is planting a conclusive belief in the minds of large numbers of people that Zimmerman is a cold-blooded,racist killer who must be brought to justice one way or another."

Or maybe he's just a fucking moron who made the mistake of his life.

I don't understand why so many here are completely convinced of his innocence in this matter.

The first cop on the scene sure wasn't.

What do the usual twits here know that he didn't?; 3/29/12, 4:34 PM
Cedarford said...: Who hijacked tradguy's google blogger ID?; 3/29/12, 4:38 PM
edutcher said...: And, of course, Zero and the rest of Aggrieved Left are outraged over this

Love said...

Where are the photos of Zimmerman's injuries?

Why does his attorney not produce the photos of such injuries?

Perhaps because they are considered evidence?

Because there are no injuries.

And your proof of this is what, exactly?

I know, standard Lefty tactic 2435:

When nothing else works, keep throwing out the same charge over and over in the hope somebody's stupid enough to buy it.; 3/29/12, 4:41 PM
Original Mike said...: Rep. Shelia Jackson Lee suggests George Zimmerman broke his own nose; 3/29/12, 4:43 PM
damikesc said...: Or maybe he's just a fucking moron who made the mistake of his life.

I don't understand why so many here are completely convinced of his innocence in this matter.

The first cop on the scene sure wasn't.

What do the usual twits here know that he didn't?

Ironically, nobody here has said he's innocent. They said he's likely not guilty of anything or the case would not be possible to prove (which the DA seems to think).

Just that the case against him is hardly solid and that a rush to judgment is a bad idea.

Do you like being just one of the mob?

And what evidence do you have that he's a moron? I mean, outside of being a Democrat and all...; 3/29/12, 4:44 PM
damikesc said...: Rep. Shelia Jackson Lee suggests George Zimmerman broke his own nose

Yes, courts insisting on majority-minority districts has certainly improved the government. Thank God we don't have total morons in Congress from those districts...; 3/29/12, 4:45 PM
Original Mike said...: "Where are the photos of Zimmerman's injuries?"

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/; 3/29/12, 4:45 PM
shiloh said...: Suffice it to say edutcher, Jay, Alex, et al Althouse loonies will not be deciding Zimmerman's guilt or innocence. And for that we can all be grateful! :); 3/29/12, 4:46 PM
Original Mike said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/29/12, 4:46 PM
Revenant said...: Or maybe he's just a fucking moron who made the mistake of his life.

Or maybe you're thinking of Martin.

Turns out "I think I'll kick this guy's ass for following me" isn't such a bright idea in a state that allows concealed carry. :); 3/29/12, 4:50 PM
KCFleming said...: @Kirk Parker
"You're right to complain about the militarization of the police, but very much wrong on the citizen-involvement part. To paraphrase the (Sir Robert Peel..."

I encourage you to read Peter Hitchen's book about the decline of Peel's mode of policing in the UK. It mirrors our own closely, and shows the path we're heading down.

In that, the police disallow self-defense, and demand we give in to theft and beatings by uncontrollable thugs.

Abolition of Liberty

"I have sought to explain in this book what appears to be the driving force of the new law. It is based, like the other changes that have overturned English life since 1960, on the new secular religion of the educated elite. Socialist and collectivist in origin, it worships the welfare state. It believes neither in absolute truth nor in absolute right and wrong. It demands special protection for cultures and lifestyle that consciously and deliberately undermine the morality and beliefs of the older generation. It uses the grievances of activists within racial and sexual minorities as the pretext for general change. It rejects the whole idea of punishment and affects to beleive in rehabilitation while failing to persue this objective with any real consistency. It is careless of the ancient liberties of the English constitution, which it often has not heard of, preferring arbitrary group rights granted to favoured lobbies over binding restaints on the power of the state. Having taken posession of the state, it believes that government is essentially benevolent and does not need to be restrained. It is hostile to individual self-improvement by the masses, although members of the elite are permitted to improve their own lives and even to become extremely rish. It is suspicious of indiidual weath and most types of property. It sympathizes with the drug-abuser and can see the burglar's point of view. It sees respectability and restraint as repression. It regards what remains of the police force as the army of the rich against the poor, of the morally conservative against the liberated."; 3/29/12, 4:52 PM
KCFleming said...: P.S. Peter Hitchens is Christopher's older brother.; 3/29/12, 4:54 PM
damikesc said...: Suffice it to say edutcher, Jay, Alex, et al Althouse loonies will not be deciding Zimmerman's guilt or innocence. And for that we can all be grateful! :)

There goes good ol' shiloh, just one of the mob. A lemming to the end.; 3/29/12, 4:58 PM
Cedarford said...: More facts will emerge. Many will be of the sort that blows up partisan arguments, possibly on both sides.

1. What were the actual weights of Martin and Zimmerman? Martin has been described as a 140-lb 6'2" starting football player "child" and Zimmerman as outweighing him by 100 lbs, ergo someone Martin "wouldn't think of attacking".

2. I would like to see where the shooting took place in context of the Zimmerman car location. Plus the famous store where Martin bought his "ice tea and skittles" and the apartment where Martin was a guest at. Was Martin taking a route to the apartment, or was he walking around in a different part of the neighborhood.

3. I would like to know if the ice tea and skittles were right at the scene where the clash took place. Or discarded by Martin some distance from the shooting spot. (Hard to assault someone with one hand holding the ice tea drink).

4. The squinting at a grainy security video is a fools errand. The actual extent of Zimmerman's injuries will be on the EMT report and by testimony of the EMT's that treated him.

5. The special prosecutor will see if police followed proper protocol. The timeline of witness phone calls will be examined. The claims of the girlfriend will be scrutinized in context of the time the phone call went on for, and the other witness testimony, and the shooting time.; 3/29/12, 4:59 PM
edutcher said...: The LA Times may be jumping the gun, but, if true, this headline is why all the trolls have come out from under the floorboards today.

shiloh said...

Suffice it to say edutcher, Jay, Alex, et al Althouse loonies will not be deciding Zimmerman's guilt or innocence. And for that we can all be grateful! :)

Bathtub swabbie, of course, wants Mr Zimmerman's fate to be determined by a pack of Lefties susceptible to the lynch law rantings of Fat Albert and Kerosene Maxine, abetted by the distortions of the Establishment Media.

Bathtub swabbie has already found him guilty. Nothing makes him smile like a mob with a rope.

The rest of us, being thinking people, are waiting for the facts to be established.; 3/29/12, 5:07 PM
Love said...: edutcher said...as to why the photos of Zimmerman have not been made public:

"Perhaps because they are considered evidence?"

Evidence of what?

A majority here feels there has been no crime committed.

If he was indeed attacked and sustained injuries, why would his attorney or even the police, not release them to calm the media and family storm?; 3/29/12, 5:13 PM
Love said...: edutcher "The rest of us, being thinking people, are waiting for the facts to be established."

That's bullshit.

A vast majority here have taken Zimmerman's side in this..."facts" be damned.; 3/29/12, 5:15 PM
garage mahal said...: Turns out "I think I'll kick this guy's ass for following me" isn't such a bright idea in a state that allows concealed carry. :)

How did Martin go for Zimmerman's gun, [as claimed] when it was concealed? How did he know he had a gun? Why in the fuck would he go for his gun?

Also, allegedly, Martin had Zimmerman and him arms pinned down with his knees on the ground beating him. How did Zimmerman get to his gun? Another miracle of miracles!; 3/29/12, 5:17 PM
Love said...: Why didn't the police tape off the crime scene for investigation?

Why didn't they take a blood sample from Zimmerman to see if he was on drugs? (If they did I haven't read it anywhere.)

What was the trajectory of the bullet?

Was it fired from above or below?

How close were they?

It seems rather strange that none of this has been done or at least reported on.; 3/29/12, 5:21 PM
Kirk Parker said...: Pogo,

I've seen a review of P.H.'s book, though I haven't actually read it. My take on your claim is that only a few select parts of the US are going down Old Blighty's path; everywhere else Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground and Constitutional Carry laws and the like are passing; and as far as the mindset goes you have the Sheriff of King County (Seattle) saying with very little subtlety, "We're facing some serious budget cutbacks, citizens should think about being armed."

From what I recall of your personal situation, you're in a very uncharacteristic situation for a smaller town in the Midwest--for some reason the town fathers there are worthy of Mass or the Chicago area...; 3/29/12, 5:22 PM
Nathan Alexander said...: The point of Love and Garage Mahal and all the other zero-integrity, zero-critical thinking types is that the more they type lies, the higher those lies get on the search engine algorithms.

They got the Big Lie technique down cold.

Let them stew in their own juices. They have no interest in or familiarity with the truth.

Just Truthiness.

I also had my nose broken once. I sneezed about 42 times in succession. Hurt like the dickens for about an hour. But I never get nosebleeds, and my nose didn't bleed when it was broken, either.
I got a little bruising around the eyes about 24 hours later.
But you can see the crook in my nose today.

But that isn't Truthy enough for the lynch mob.

You should be proud of yourself Love, machine, garage mahal, et al: you have brought groupthink idiocy to a new low.; 3/29/12, 5:23 PM
Revenant said...: Evidence of what? A majority here feels there has been no crime committed.

If there has been no crime, it would be unethical (and a violation of Zimmerman's privacy) to release photos of his injuries without his permission.

If there was a crime, it would be both unethical AND unwise for the police to release such photos.

In neither case is it any of your business at all; the lynch mob went out of fashion in the 1930s.; 3/29/12, 5:28 PM
KCFleming said...: @Kirk Parker

You're quite right about my state and city.

I hope you are similarly right about a more favorable outcome in other cities.; 3/29/12, 5:36 PM
Revenant said...: How did Martin go for Zimmerman's gun, [as claimed] when it was concealed?

I'm assuming Zimmerman drew it when Martin had him down and was beating on him. The witnesses report Zimmerman on the ground calling for help, Martin on top hitting him, and then -- bang.

Why in the fuck would he go for his gun?

Because Martin was beating on him? Reason enough, legally as well as morally.

Also, allegedly, Martin had Zimmerman and him arms pinned down with his knees on the ground beating him.

I don't know what your source is for "Zimmerman's arms were pinned", but the obvious conclusion would be that Zimmerman got an arm free.

How did Zimmerman get to his gun? Another miracle of miracles!

I love how your mind can simultaneously hold the thoughts "Martin was no threat" and "Martin was so powerful that Zimmerman would have been a helpless kitten if Martin had pinned him".; 3/29/12, 5:39 PM
Love said...: Nathan Alexander - Why hasn't the attorney taken the lead in this, countered all of the negative press and comments about Zimmerman...by releasing the photos of the damage to Zimmerman's face and head?

Until you can answer that intelligently...your defense of Zimmerman rings rather hollow.; 3/29/12, 5:53 PM
edutcher said...: Love said...

edutcher "The rest of us, being thinking people, are waiting for the facts to be established."

That's bullshit.

A vast majority here have taken Zimmerman's side in this..."facts" be damned.

Again, proof?

Few, if any, here have pronounced Zimmerman innocent or said he is guilty of no crime.

What we have done is push back against the high-tech lynching in progress on the Left by examining the facts, as we know them.

All Love can do is make groundless accusations and go ad hominem when they're knocked down.

He/She/It has no facts to back up his/her/its side and uses the absence of photographs as proof.

Try that in a court of law.; 3/29/12, 5:53 PM
Revenant said...: Why didn't the police tape off the crime scene for investigation?

They did.

Why didn't they take a blood sample from Zimmerman to see if he was on drugs?

Because it is illegal for police to demand blood samples from American citizens unless there is probable cause to believe that person has consumed illegal drugs.

*Police* are tested after a shooting, but that's a condition of their employment. Any policeman who wanted to could refuse to give up the sample (and get fired for it, of course).

How close were they?

Martin was on top of Zimmerman immediately prior to the shooting, Zimmerman was standing next to Martin's body immediately after. That is what has been reported so far.

It seems rather strange that none of this has been done or at least reported on.

Because normally when the police investigate someone and decide not to arrest him, they publicize every last detail of the investigation, just so they can be sure Love agrees with them.

Get this through your head: just because you have predetermined Zimmerman to be a criminal does not mean he has forfeited any rights. Angering the mob isn't a crime in this country. :); 3/29/12, 5:54 PM
Roger J. said...: Apparently the Seminole county DA feels no crime was committed thus no charge. Mr Z has not been charged with anything, thus has no responsibility to prove his innocence--If charged, it is up to the state to prove Mr Z' guilt, and presumably the DA did not think that was possible.

It is not for an innocent person to calm media firestorms, especially when dealing with with self identified "investigators" who apparently watch CSI and who put great stock in one police office surveillance camera, while ignoring police reports and other eyewitness data.; 3/29/12, 5:55 PM
Love said...: Revenant "If there has been no crime, it would be unethical (and a violation of Zimmerman's privacy) to release photos of his injuries without his permission."

So you don't think his own attorney can get his "permission" to release the photos or even a medical report?

What would he be waiting for?

The longer he waits the less relevant any photographic evidence would be...correct?

Or, hey...maybe you're just full of shit.; 3/29/12, 5:56 PM
Revenant said...: Why hasn't the attorney taken the lead in this, countered all of the negative press and comments about Zimmerman...by releasing the photos of the damage to Zimmerman's face and head?

Because there's nothing to gain.

If the photos show evidence of a broken nose and a laceration to the back of his head, you will shrug and say "that doesn't prove anything".

If the wounds don't look that bad or (as is often the case with broken noses) aren't visually obvious, you will say "see, that proves it was murder".

Nothing to gain. He isn't going to be able to reason you out of a position you didn't reason yourself into. You've told yourself a story about an innocent kid gunned down by a vigilante, and that's what you're going to believe for the rest of your life.

The best thing the attorney can do is wait for the public to get distracted by a new spectacle. So long as the lynch mob is demanding punishment for Zimmerman, Zimmerman has no hope of living a normal life -- not even if he's put on trial and found not guilty (as he assuredly would be, given the apparent evidence).; 3/29/12, 5:59 PM
traditionalguy said...: A broken nose from a good direct blow such as a head butt or an elbow swing by a taller Basketball player is a serious and bloody injury. But perhaps some are cracked but not displaced badly at all when from a weak or glancing blow.

You can feel your nose cartilage ridge up and down with your fingers and try moving it around. you can tell in a second whether it is cracked a little but not displaced, or whether it is diagonally broken in two with sharp pointed ends which is what causes half an hour of constant head veins bleeding even when cold compresses are applied and cotton nostril plugs are inserted.

So the reactive shooter here was not badly hurt at all. He probably just had never been involved in a fight where some one else attacked him first. So he panicked and did his chicken shit imitation of a Policeman authorized to shoot people for resisting him with fist full of deadly skittles, ice tea and a cell phone.

Zimmerman needs to admit to his stupid mistake and quit leading the Florida police the nation who saw the tapes, and the commenters here into a political war over to prevent his going to trial.

I suspect the 2nd Amendment forces will pull this case further out of joint. If a right to carry is to be upheld, then demanding the responsible carrying and use of guns is a necesssary part of that equation

The guy could get probation with maybe a small jail time for causing the death of another while being well meaning but ignorant.

The comments here today have run 80% into smoke blowing excuses for whatever Zimmerman did, saying over and over that it can never be proved, never, ever, ever. So a trial examining and cross examining witnesses would be a waste of time... and UnAmerican to boot...and a liberal trick...and a lawyers trick.

Wrong! It is our Anglo0American tradition that seeks out truth in public trials and thus cause the citizens to accept the rule of law.

Zimmerman ain't worth turning the Nation and these comments into Moby City.; 3/29/12, 6:01 PM
Revenant said...: What would he be waiting for?

For you to find another "injustice" to obsess about.; 3/29/12, 6:01 PM
Roger J. said...: Jeremy/love/lucky old son--you need to read more about how the criminal justice system works, and spout off much less--You continue to beclown yourself with your ignorance. Should Mr Z be charged, then the evidence you seek is relevant in a court of law, not to some mindless idiot on the internet.; 3/29/12, 6:02 PM
Love said...: Revenant "They did." (tape off the crime scene)

How do YOU know that?

"Because it is illegal for police to demand blood samples from American citizens unless there is probable cause to believe that person has consumed illegal drugs."

Get real. You get tested after being pulled over for erratic driving, but can't be test after shooting someone? You're crazy.

"Martin was on top of Zimmerman immediately prior to the shooting, Zimmerman was standing next to Martin's body immediately after. That is what has been reported so far."

You don't know that for sure. And if so...tell us how.

"Because normally when the police investigate someone and decide not to arrest him, they publicize every last detail of the investigation, just so they can be sure Love agrees with them."

Crimes are certainly reported in great detail when the suspect and victim are both identified. A kid was killed in Pasadena under similar circumstances just a day or so ago and there's plenty of information released via the police.

I never predetermined Zimmerman to be anything of the kind, but I'm not going to go overboard defending someone who should have stayed put, not followed someone after being told not to, and ending up killing an unarmed kid.

For whatever reason, people here appear to forget that Martin was not armed and was merely walking to his father's fiance's home.

That is not a crime.

Zimmerman initiated the entire situation.; 3/29/12, 6:05 PM
Revenant said...: I suspect the 2nd Amendment forces will pull this case further out of joint. If a right to carry is to be upheld, then demanding the responsible carrying and use of guns is a necesssary part of that equation

There's nothing "irresponsible" about killing a person who violently attacks you. Far from it; it is a fundamental assertion of your own right to freedom from violence and coercion.

Of course, you're famous for your "if you can't kick someone's ass you're not a man" attitude, so you obviously feel otherwise, but there is a reason handguns are called "the great equalizer" -- they ended the era when big muscles and a bad case of testosterone poisoning meant you could do as you pleased.

If you physically attack another person, you forfeit the right to complain about how -- or if -- he fights back. Using your fists and then whining that he pulled a gun is the mark of a bully, not a responsible adult.; 3/29/12, 6:08 PM
KCFleming said...: I am also suspicious that trad-guys blogger profile has been hacked or spoofed.

A totally different writing style.; 3/29/12, 6:09 PM
Love said...: Roger - Why would you possibly think you know anything about me?

Why would you possibly think I give a flying fuck what you think...about anyting?

I've read your comments from time to time and you're just another teabagger who thinks he knows everything about everyting.

I've asked time and time again: Why does the attorney for Zimmerman take the heat out of this by posting his photos?

Nobody here, including your highness, appears to have a reasonable answer.

And we ALL know this for sure: If Zimmerman was black...and Martin was white...the bigots here would be screaming to high heaven about the shooter.

I've been here enough to know that...and so do you.; 3/29/12, 6:10 PM
Love said...: Revenant "There's nothing "irresponsible" about killing a person who violently attacks you."

How would you possibly know that was the case?

Based on the cell phone calls, the 911 calls and Zimmerman's own statement...he initiated the entire situation by following Martin.; 3/29/12, 6:13 PM
Roger J. said...: One more time slowly Jeremy/love/LOS--Mr Z has not been accused of anything and thus has no responsibility to prove his innocense.

Is that such a hard concept to grasp?

My point stands--you know nothing about the detailed evidence and you continue to assert it is up to the uncharged suspect to prove his innocense. No: it is up to the state prove his guilt if Mr Z is, in fact charged.; 3/29/12, 6:16 PM
Love said...: Someone call this guy and tell him he's out of line:

"According to ABC News, lead investigator Chris Serino wanted to charge George Zimmerman with manslaughter after interviewing him on the night he shot Trayvon Martin, 17.

He filed an affidavit with the court urging the manslaughter charge, but was overruled by the state's attorney, Norman Wolfinger, according to a report on ABC News.com. Wolfinger told Serino the evidence would not support the manslaughter charge."; 3/29/12, 6:18 PM
Roger J. said...: and is that no the DA's role? to determine if the evidence can support a charge? why do you have a problem with that Jeremy/love/los? as I noted above, you have no apparent understanding of the criminal justice system. Continue to wallow in the muck of your ignorance.; 3/29/12, 6:22 PM
Love said...: Roger J. "Mr Z has not been accused of anything and thus has no responsibility to prove his innocense."

But his attorney could sure take a lot of the heat out of the entire situation...right? And there's no reason the police couldn't release photos if they have them...right?

They release mug shots immediately, and the first officer certainly thought Zimmerman had done something criminal...right?

People who are accused or suspected of crimes and take the lead in disproving their guilt or alleviating suspician all the time.

Once again, instead of providing a reasonable explanation for his attorney not doing something so straight forward and reasonable...you cop out with the standard drivel.

And I'd love to see what you would be posting if the shooter was black and the person killed was white.

But we both know what that would be...don't we.; 3/29/12, 6:23 PM
garage mahal said...: Because Martin was beating on him? Reason enough, legally as well as morally.

I meant why would Martin go for Zimmerman's gun, that was concealed and shouldn't have even seen. Or, if if was drawn, why he would go for Zimmerman's gun, when he was unarmed.; 3/29/12, 6:23 PM
Revenant said...: Get real. You get tested after being pulled over for erratic driving, but can't be test after shooting someone?

Erratic driving is probable cause for believing you are intoxicated. Shooting a guy is not.

You don't know that for sure. And if so...tell us how.

I said "that is what has been reported so far". I do know for sure that that is what has been reported so far.

You're right that I have no direct knowledge of the events, but I still maintain that my "rely on what has been reported" method of analysis is better than your "just make stuff up and hope for the best" method. :)

You're the one asserting that the police screwed up and/or conspired to cover up a murder. My position is simply "there's no evidence of that". Everything that is actually known about the case is consistent with Zimmerman's story.

A kid was killed in Pasadena under similar circumstances just a day or so ago and there's plenty of information released via the police.

Sure, because the police are trying to find who did it and are hoping the public can help. So now explain why they should release information about *this* case. "To appease the mob" is the only reason that comes to mind, and offhand I can't think of a worse reason for doing it.

I'm not going to go overboard defending someone who should have stayed put, not followed someone after being told not to, and ending up killing an unarmed kid.

If Martin didn't attack him then Zimmerman should go to jail. If Martin DID attack him then Zimmerman did the right thing. Being unarmed doesn't give a person the right to go around kicking ass without consequences. :); 3/29/12, 6:24 PM
Roger J. said...: you keep asking me "right?" no. that is not right--you are simply asserting your ignorance of the criminal justice system. Which continues unabated. but do carry on.; 3/29/12, 6:26 PM
Revenant said...: Someone call this guy and tell him he's out of line

Sounds like the state's attorney already did.; 3/29/12, 6:26 PM
Anonymous said...: garage,

Yes, from the actual video here. Just before 8:00pm

As I stated. You're just a bigot. There are images at the link I gave you that clearly shows a pretty big abrasion on the back of Zimmerman's head. Evidence that I know you will ignore because, as I stated, you're just a bigot.; 3/29/12, 6:30 PM
Revenant said...: I meant why would Martin go for Zimmerman's gun, that was concealed and shouldn't have even seen. Or, if if was drawn, why he would go for Zimmerman's gun, when he was unarmed.

The first question is a straw man, since nobody's alleging the gun was still concealed when Martin tried to grab it.

The obvious answer to second question is "because if only one of two people in the fight has a gun, that one person better be you". Certainly it showed a lack of common sense, but the available evidence is that neither Zimmerman nor Martin had a surplus of THAT particular trait.; 3/29/12, 6:34 PM
Revenant said...: Revenant "There's nothing "irresponsible" about killing a person who violently attacks you."

How would you possibly know that was the case?

I don't, but t-guy's comment about second amendment rights and responsible gun use doesn't apply if Zimmerman threw the first punch. Second degree murder is "illegal and wrong", not "foolish". :); 3/29/12, 6:38 PM
Matt Sablan said...: "Why didn't the police tape off the crime scene for investigation?"

-- They did. Read the report.; 3/29/12, 6:40 PM
Revenant said...: why do you have a problem with that Jeremy/love/los?

Love = Jeremy? That explains so much. Now I feel silly for talking to him/her/it. :); 3/29/12, 6:42 PM
Roger J. said...: Matthew: "read the report..." This assumes a fact not in evidence: that Love/Jeremy/LOS can read; and if can read, omits read with understanding.; 3/29/12, 6:42 PM
Matt Sablan said...: "I meant why would Martin go for Zimmerman's gun, that was concealed and shouldn't have even seen. Or, if if was drawn, why he would go for Zimmerman's gun, when he was unarmed."

-- Sometimes: "If Zimmerman showed his gun, why would Martin attack him!"

Other times: "How could Martin go for Zimmerman's gun if he concealed it!"

It's like there's no consensus yet on which story to pursue.; 3/29/12, 6:43 PM
traditionalguy said...: When He was on trial before Pilate, Jeus was asked was he a King?

His answer to Pilate rings down the ages, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I came into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth hears my voice."

Pilate blew Him off saying, "what is the truth." He wasn't that interested.

Also in Proverbs Solomon wrote," ...It is the glory of Kings to search out a matter."

Around Easter the Kingly activity seems to be appropriate.; 3/29/12, 6:44 PM
Roger J. said...: Rev: of course Love is just the latest incarnation of Jeremy and before that lucky old son. writing styles are similar--of course haveing made that charge, it is up to Love to disprove, cest na pas?; 3/29/12, 6:45 PM
Revenant said...: Roger,

Yeah, I see it now. Although Love seems to use a lot less profanity.; 3/29/12, 6:49 PM
Brian Brown said...: Love said...

Based on the cell phone calls, the 911 calls and Zimmerman's own statement...he initiated the entire situation by following Martin.

Hilarious.

So Zimmerman wasn't punched or attacked?

Oh, if he was, he "started" it by following someone.

You're a moron.; 3/29/12, 6:50 PM
Roger J. said...: perhaps Love has found Jesus. and he has dropped the read more talk less schtick. but it is jeremy incarnate; 3/29/12, 6:51 PM
Brian Brown said...: Love said...
Where are the photos of Zimmerman's injuries?

Why does his attorney not produce the photos of such injuries?

Because there are no injuries.

Why do you engage in beastialy?

Why don't you produce photos of you not having sex with animals?

Because you have sex with animals.; 3/29/12, 6:51 PM
Brian Brown said...: Love said...
Someone call this guy and tell him he's out of line:

"According to ABC News, lead investigator Chris Serino wanted to charge George Zimmerman with

And his boss, the Chief of Police, and the Prosecutor all disagreed.

Your point would be ______?; 3/29/12, 6:53 PM
garage mahal said...: As I stated. You're just a bigot. There are images at the link I gave you that clearly shows a pretty big abrasion on the back of Zimmerman's head. Evidence that I know you will ignore because, as I stated, you're just a bigot.

What exactly am I being bigoted about. I told I thought they were lying, and why. I've mentioned NOTHING about race. Get over yourself.

As far as the picture from the Daily Caller, you'll have to tell me what you see. A 4-5" black shadow area that is supposed to a gash wound? Needed stitches? Who stitched it? In a half hour? [according to the timestamp on the police video); 3/29/12, 6:55 PM
Shanna said...: Rep. Shelia Jackson Lee suggests George Zimmerman broke his own nose

Typical. Sadly. When the evidence starts to look like you were wrong, invent a ridiculous conspiracy theory. That doesn't make you sound crazy at all!

Although it's terribly sad that it went this far, 'don't attack someone because you never know who might be carrying' is not a bad message to send. (that is, if Zimmerman didn't attack first, which I'm leaning against, but can't rule out since the evidence is inconclusive. Whoever started the fight, Zimmerman ended it.); 3/29/12, 6:55 PM
Brian Brown said...: garage mahal said...

I said I think they are lying. Zimmerman, his father, and likely the SPD. I have my reasons,

What are the reasons?

I'm willing to guess they are all based on false premises, lies, and you silly ignorance.; 3/29/12, 6:55 PM
shiloh said...: "Why don't you produce photos of you not having sex with animals?

Because you have sex with animals."

Love/Jeremy nonsense notwithstanding, again Althouse must be so damn proud of her conservative flock!

edutcher, fool that he is, accused me of being PB&J. Suffice it to say, Althouse lemmings have wayyy too much time on their hands.

Happy trails ...; 3/29/12, 6:57 PM
Brian Brown said...: A 4-5" black shadow area that is supposed to a gash wound?

What do you think it is?

It is hysterical you refer to it as a "shadow"

I told I thought they were lying

What possible motive does an officer at the scene of a shooting have to lie about the injuries to Zimmerman?

Don't you find it the least bit odd that with every fact presented you respond with a conspiracy theory?

What do you think that says about your beliefs?; 3/29/12, 6:58 PM
damikesc said...: He filed an affidavit with the court urging the manslaughter charge, but was overruled by the state's attorney, Norman Wolfinger, according to a report on ABC News.com. Wolfinger told Serino the evidence would not support the manslaughter charge."

A cop thought a charge should be filed. A DA mentioned that it could not be proven in court and decided against it.

That's, you know, how the system works.

Investigators think Obama committed fraud in relation to Solyndra. Also think Holder and Obama intentionally violated numerous laws in regards to Fast & Furious. I bet you want them arrested right now.; 3/29/12, 7:04 PM
Brian Brown said...: As far as the picture from the Daily Caller, you'll have to tell me what you see. A 4-5" black shadow area that is supposed to a gash wound?

Look at the officer at the 0:50 point on the video – see what he’s doing?

If there wasn’t something on the back of the guy’s head to look at, why would he stare at it like that?; 3/29/12, 7:12 PM
Brian Brown said...: Love said...
Wolfinger told Serino the evidence would not support the manslaughter charge."

I love the fact you think this is some sort of "trump" card.

It is. But of course you're too dumb to see what it means for your position.; 3/29/12, 7:15 PM
garage mahal said...: What are the reasons?

I just don't quite believe the scuffle story. I don't believe his nose got broken, or sustained a head bashing on the curb. I think he made that part of it up. Which makes me think he made up other portions of the story. But, of course, I could be totally wrong since I was not there.; 3/29/12, 7:16 PM
edutcher said...: Love said...

And we ALL know this for sure: If Zimmerman was black...and Martin was white...the bigots here would be screaming to high heaven about the shooter.

Then why, dare we ask, did no one say anything about this little hate crime? How many times did we talk about it here?

Z E R O

Love is getting profane because his/her/its KosKid arguments have been shot down multiple times.

According to ABC News, lead investigator Chris Serino wanted to charge George Zimmerman with manslaughter after interviewing him on the night he shot Trayvon Martin, 17.

He filed an affidavit with the court urging the manslaughter charge, but was overruled by the state's attorney, Norman Wolfinger, according to a report on ABC News.com. Wolfinger told Serino the evidence would not support the manslaughter charge.

Thus Love answers his/her/its charge and is too stupid to see it. The evidence isn't there. In a court of law, unlike a Lefty lynch mob, you need evidence, but the Lefties hate the rule of law because they have to live within it, too.

As I said, The Daily Caller details how ABC obscured view in the vid, but our little troll doesn't want to look.

His/Her/Its stupid questions have been rebutted a dozen times and are met with profanity.

As the Chinese say, "You can tell who's losing. That's the first to raise his voice".

The Lefties are going to lose big on this one and they would hope this would gin up the base, but, for that to work, the charges have to stick.

That's not gonna happen, so they're gonna give it the Full Court Alinsky to at least ruin Zimmerman's life.

But it still won't save the Democrats this Fall.; 3/29/12, 7:16 PM
shiloh said...: Interesting daddy Zimmerman and his son's lawyer are doing damage control before jr. has been arrested.

Obviously Zimmerman's lawyer is a fool! And daddy railing against Jackson, Black caucus, Obama etc. certainly isn't helping jr. as regards to his racial state of mind the night of the murder.

Better to keep quiet and let folk think you're a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!; 3/29/12, 7:24 PM
damikesc said...: You don't know that for sure. And if so...tell us how.

If you won't accept an answer, why ask a question?

For whatever reason, people here appear to forget that Martin was not armed and was merely walking to his father's fiance's home

Using your standard --- how do YOU know that? For certain? We have what his dad says, but he certainly isn't an impartial source here.

But his attorney could sure take a lot of the heat out of the entire situation...right?

Because insane lynch mobs often respond to calls for reason.

If Zimmerman was black...and Martin was white...the bigots here would be screaming to high heaven about the shooter.

...given that nobody is white here anyway, how is this relevant? Or are Hispanics now white? Or are they only white when Progressives need a Hispanic to kill?

Zimmerman is as white as Obama.

At Mississippi State, a white student was shot and killed by 3 black suspects.

Somehow, it DIDN'T generate much media attention.

Any idea why?

Based on the cell phone calls, the 911 calls and Zimmerman's own statement...he initiated the entire situation by following Martin.

So, following somebody justifies somebody to assault somebody else? Intriguing. I was unaware that quietly following somebody qualified as an assault, but hey, you're pursuing new realms of law here.; 3/29/12, 7:25 PM
garage mahal said...: Jay
I didn't see that part of the tape of the officer taking a look at what appeared to be Zimmerman's back.

So, +1 on the forensics. I'll have to rethink this. LOL; 3/29/12, 7:27 PM
damikesc said...: Obviously Zimmerman's lawyer is a fool! And daddy railing against Jackson, Black caucus, Obama etc. certainly isn't helping jr. as regards to his racial state of mind the night of the murder.

Noting that the CBC, Panthers, Jackson, and Sharpton are basically stating his son murdered a kid for no reason is evidence of racism?

Well, thank you. You officially removed all meaning of the word. Kudos.

A Hispanic Democrat is watching just how little his group means to his preferred party. Other groups should also keep tabs on this.

Living as a member of a group sucks. Be an individual. Ten times better.; 3/29/12, 7:28 PM
shiloh said...: correction: night of the killing.; 3/29/12, 7:28 PM
Revenant said...: Interesting daddy Zimmerman and his son's lawyer are doing damage control before jr. has been arrested.

Well, yeah. The Black Panthers put out a hit on him and leading Democrats are demanding he be imprisoned for crimes against the black race. I'd be trying to calm people down too.

It says a lot about you that you *aren't*. Why does it fall to conservatives and libertarians to defend a poor Latino Democrat from the government?; 3/29/12, 7:32 PM
shiloh said...: "I'd be trying to calm people down too."

How are they calming anyone down as evidenced by the conservative inane hyperbole in this thread.; 3/29/12, 7:35 PM
damikesc said...: How are they calming anyone down as evidenced by the conservative inane hyperbole in this thread.

Saying that he shouldn't be imprisoned is hyperbole. Saying he murdered somebody and the police and DA are covering stuff up, however, is TOTALLY fair game.; 3/29/12, 7:44 PM
Brian Brown said...: garage mahal said...
What are the reasons?

I just don't quite believe the scuffle story. I don't believe his nose got broken, or sustained a head bashing on the curb.

Um, ok.

So assume for a second what you say is true.

Wouldn't the police easily notice this?

Why wouldn't they just book him for manslaughter?; 3/29/12, 7:44 PM
Brian Brown said...: garage mahal said...
Jay
I didn't see that part of the tape of the officer taking a look at what appeared to be Zimmerman's back.

It is quite clear he's looking at the back of Zimmerman's head.

Again, every fact presented you dismiss.

What does that say about your beliefs?; 3/29/12, 7:45 PM
edutcher said...: shiloh said...

Better to keep quiet and let folk think you're a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!

Bathtub swabbie needs to do just that!

LOL; 3/29/12, 7:51 PM
Brian Brown said...: Uh-oh.

Garage's world is about to come tumbling down:

I’ve obtained copies of the Paramedic report on George Zimmerman from the scene and it confirms the injuries in the police report. For HIPAA reasons I won’t post it here, but it says in part that subject sustained superficial lacerations on the back on his head, left cheek and a swollen nose. He was treated and cleared for transport.; 3/29/12, 8:01 PM
eelpout said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/29/12, 8:05 PM
DADvocate said...: There seems to be a belief among the more ignorant here, garage, et al, that one must allow an attacker to beat them half to death before defending themselves. Not true. One is justified using lethal force if "you are afraid that if you don't, you will be killed or seriously injured...". (State of Florida website)

This is a common definition of the justification of the use of lethal force. One need not be injured at all. There is evidence that ABC doctored the video to support the narrative. This wouldn't be the first time a major network did such a thing. 60 Minutes did it with Audi cars and NBC did it on Dateline with Chevy trucks. Hell, CBS faked bird songs for golf matches. Trusting the MSM is a fool;s game. Of course, garage and his political kin are fools.; 3/29/12, 8:17 PM
Cedarford said...: Wonder if the cops in Miami have traced any of Trayvon's stolen jewelry or matched his burglar tools to any break-ins; 3/29/12, 8:18 PM
Roger J. said...: Shilo--remain silent--you have already demonstrated you are a fool. And we knew that before you started yammering on the merits of this case. You simply confirmed it for us. You apparently don't put much stock in the doctrine of innocent until proven guilty. At this point, no charges filed. if and when charges are filed all the evidence you seem to have adduced will come out. Why dont you wait until then?; 3/29/12, 9:05 PM
William said...: There are exculpating and implicating factors in this story. I have not seen anyone on the news include all factors in their narrative.; 3/29/12, 9:08 PM
Kirk Parker said...: Pogo,

"I hope you are similarly right about a more favorable outcome in other cities."

Well, I do try to keep Instapundit's "Don't get cocky, kid" mantra in mind--but really when I look around I see lots of wins, along with a minor setback here and there.; 3/29/12, 9:11 PM
shiloh said...: Roger J.

Inane conservative hypocrisy notwithstanding, your concern is duly noted. And thanx for payin' attention to my every word!

Fool indeed!; 3/29/12, 9:13 PM
Roger J. said...: shilo--except for a few stock epithets you have very little of substance to say on this blog. That is really not a problem, but it does diminish your credibility even more. Apparently you, like others, do not adhere to the innocent until proven guilty maxim. Thats ok with me, but when you talk about hypocracy, you might want to consider your posts.; 3/29/12, 9:19 PM
William said...: This case is not about guilt or innocence. It is about race....I have not yet heard any credible evidence that Zimmerman's primary motivation was racism. I have heard many assertions that he was acting out of bigotry, but, to date, there is nothing in his background to indicate that he is a bigot.....There's a dead body, and Zimmerman was responsible. It's fair enough to ask questions and make him explain his actions. But absent evidence to the contrary, it's unfair to make this a hate crime.......The whites are supporting Zimmerman. The Hispanics not even a little bit. Zimmerman is a de facto white man.; 3/29/12, 9:24 PM
Roger J. said...: oops a spelling error on my part--hypocricy--before the language police arrive.; 3/29/12, 9:25 PM
shiloh said...: Roger J.

"very little of substance"

Yet you keep payin' attention. And please feel free to point out where I stated Zimmerman was guilty.

Again, thanx for caring ...; 3/29/12, 9:26 PM
Roger J. said...: You are most welcome, shilo; 3/29/12, 9:29 PM
William said...: I wasn't there. This is pure speculation. My best guess is that Martin physically confronted Zimmerman and got the better of him. Zimmerman, either in panic or in anger, drew his gun and shot him. This doesn't make Zimmerman innocent, but it doesn't make him the Grand Kleage either. And, also, I don't think Martin was some out of control thug....This is a tragic story, but the wish to spin this as some kind of racial atrocity is extremely wrong.; 3/29/12, 9:36 PM
shiloh said...: The racial aspect of this incident aside, supposedly Zimmerman had made several previous 911 calls to. police that went nowhere and didn't cause harm. So one would think the main reason Zimmerman decided to pursue, despite being told not to by a police dispatcher was because Taylor was a little guy and less threatening, Zimmerman having a gun notwithstanding.

Obviously, even if charged it will be very hard to get a conviction because of the stand your ground law and no valid eye witnesses because it was dark.

Zimmerman wanted to be famous and now he's infamous. But hey, daddy and his brother still like him.; 3/29/12, 9:53 PM
Saint Croix said...: this article is quite good.; 3/29/12, 10:24 PM
Revenant said...: Taylor was a little guy

I don't know who "Taylor" is supposed to be, but Trayvon Martin was a 6'3" football player.

Zimmerman is 5'9".

One might think that would make Martin feel comfortable attacking him. :); 3/30/12, 1:20 AM
B said...: Interesting thread to read. One side of the discussion is woefully ignorant of what verifiable information is available and peddling a great deal of misinformation and pure falsehood as a substitute. The other side is using established and verifiable information - whether ultimately true or not it is verifiable at this point - to counter.

The point I find interesting is that the side that is so woefully ignorant is at the same time so sublimely confident in their position and so condescending and disdainful of the side that is actually knowledgeable.

The comments to this particular post are an almost perfect representation of what you see, hear, and read in the daily discourse. On the one side you have the party line apparatchik garage, the buffoonish and content free shiloh, and the confused but strident love. On the other the counterpoint of reason and logic presented by the few people still bothering with their nonsense.; 3/30/12, 7:01 AM
William said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 3/30/12, 9:00 AM