October 18, 2011

"President Obama and the Democratic leadership are making a critical error in embracing the Occupy Wall Street movement..."

"... and it may cost them the 2012 election, "says pollster Douglas Schoen (in the Wall Street Journal).
The protesters have a distinct ideology and are bound by a deep commitment to radical left-wing policies. On Oct. 10 and 11, Arielle Alter Confino, a senior researcher at my polling firm, interviewed nearly 200 protesters in New York's Zuccotti Park. Our findings probably represent the first systematic random sample of Occupy Wall Street opinion.

Our research shows clearly that the movement doesn't represent unemployed America and is not ideologically diverse. Rather, it comprises an unrepresentative segment of the electorate that believes in radical redistribution of wealth, civil disobedience and, in some instances, violence. Half (52%) have participated in a political movement before, virtually all (98%) say they would support civil disobedience to achieve their goals, and nearly one-third (31%) would support violence to advance their agenda....

Sixty-five percent say that government has a moral responsibility to guarantee all citizens access to affordable health care, a college education, and a secure retirement—no matter the cost. By a large margin (77%-22%), they support raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans, but 58% oppose raising taxes for everybody, with only 36% in favor. And by a close margin, protesters are divided on whether the bank bailouts were necessary (49%) or unnecessary (51%).
It's obviously risky for Obama to identify too closely with these people, but there are also risks in distancing himself. If you look at the various statements by Obama and his advisers, I think you'll see that they have positioned themselves in the middle ground with the message: We understand the protests as an emotional expression about current economic conditions. There's no identification with the protesters' abstract ideology or policy proposals — which Schoen's polling may reveal, but which are not that apparent in the protests. So Obama may have the right strategy: Characterize the protests as inarticulate cries of pain about problems that are real and that affect all Americans.

Schoen cites the 1970 elections — the midterm of the Nixon administration — when Democrats should have gained ground but lost by "aligning too closely with the antiwar movement hurt Democrats [as] many middle-class and working-class Americans ended up supporting hawkish candidates who condemned student disruptions." The Democrats who won, Schoen says, were the ones who acted enthusiastic about law and order. So Schoen — who was a pollster for Bill Clinton — recommends that Democrats eschew the "huge new spending programs and tax increases" that the protesters would like and please moderates by "opposing bailouts and broad-based tax increases."

But let's examine the 1970 analogy. The antiwar protesters pushed a very specific policy: ending the Vietnam War. A politician couldn't characterize their noise as an inarticulate cry of pain. If you sided with them, you were opposed to the war.

So I'm not convinced that moderate voters will punish Obama for taking his "I feel your pain" approach to the protesters. The rest of America also feels that pain, and Obama is good at performing empathy. Make it all very general and emotional, and let that emotional fuzz further obscure the already vague policy notions in the mushy heads of the protesters.

True, moderate Americans dislike disorder, but how hard is that to deal with? Up to a point, merge it with the "expression of pain" interpretation. And if it goes too far and there is actual violence, you do what all the moderate folk do when there is violence: Deplore it.

412 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 400 of 412   Newer›   Newest»
Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

Not true. A zombie apocalypse would do wonders for the job market here
Pish-Posh man, you are so, so wrong…
1) The CEZA is merely an over-wrought fever dream; and
2) It would certainly drive UP the cost of labour, as the number of labourers would fall…

UNLESS, of course, zombies could be made to work at the factory…I’ve got to go call some of my “Zionist Financier friends” I think I may have a useful labour cost reduction program here…I mean really looking at “J” and sometimes Garage is there really that much intellectual difference between a zombie and a union employee? And if we can get the zombie cheaper…..

Roger J. said...

Garage: totally Off Topic but I was very impressed by your dad's exploits in WW II with numerous missions in the B17s over Germany--Clearly one hell of a brave man--May I respectfully suggest you donate his logs to the 8th Air Force museum? they would be a valuable addition.

Scott M said...

D'oh...meant a CEZA overseas, not here. See? Unemployment problem solved.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)


Garage you know who lost manufacturing jobs, the PRC…it’s lost MILLIONS of them, in the last few years. “Manufacturing” as a percentage of GDP is very robust in the US. You confuse change with decline….Manufacturing is the first rung on the development ladder…it’s not the end-all be-all….again you cannot pay UAW workers 50K per year to drive a fork lift and have extensive union work rules and expect it to be “sustainable.” In my state the non-UAW employees make half of that…but they have jobs…

you can try walling the US off with tariffs, but that will only reduce the standard of living in the short run, as the US is the world’s largest exporter, and once the trade war(s) start those jobs vanish..and a long-term economic impact as the US becomes Mexico or India circa 1970…once you wall yourself off, your industries stagnate and exploit the consumer and political classes rather than compete and innovate….

Valentine Smith said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)


Oh ScottM I’m liking it…a horde of Mexican Zombies heading towards El Norte diminishes the Third World Labour pool, AND the need for enhanced border security provides a useful sponge to mop up any excess teenaged/early twenties unemployment in the US! Not a bad idea…I’ll run that past my Zionist-Banker Friends, too…

Boy, I hope “J” doesn’t read this…without a sarcasm meter this is going to send him right around the conspiracy bend…..

Brian Brown said...

Won't be funny in a few years, Jay, unless this war by the rich against other Americans ends.

You are a blathering idiot.

Brian Brown said...

Conceivable, but I highly doubt it. We lost 50,000 manufacturing plants the past 10 yrs. I don't know how you draw a straight line between that and "growth of government", whatever that means. Obama and a lot of Democrats don't get it either, they just signed three job killing trade deals. They know by their numbers it will kill X amount of jobs, and they fucking sign them anyway.


He goes from doubting big government impacts the decline of the middle class to saying the big government kills off jobs in the same paragraph.

It is almost as if he's incoherent or something.

Peano said...

Obama is good at performing empathy.

Right.

garage mahal said...

@Roger
I've been looking to do something like that, I have most of what remains [which isn't much]. I was going to do a website or something of the sort. Is that museum in Memphis?

Michael said...

Garage. So the imposition of thoisands of pages of regulations, some requiring the replacement of capital goods at enormous costs coupled with high corporate taxes had no effect on the decline of American manufacturing?

Until about ten years ago you could expect to send a brand new car to the shop every so many thousand miles. American cars were falling apart in five years before the Japanese compelled Detroit to up its game. None of this mattered to the decline of manufacturing? You are romancing a period that will never come again.

The US was the only country in the world after WWiI with a manufacturing base. We got away with a lot until competition came along.

Roger J. said...

Garage- Again your dad was one hell of a guy--I think the 8th air force museum is in north georgia or south south carolina--I go by it on my way to hilton head

Google the 8th Air Force Museum--I am sure they would love to have your dad's logs

Eric said...

By a large margin (77%-22%), they support raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans.

Big surprise. It's just human nature to force other people to pay your way.

Kirk Parker said...

MadMan,

"How did you know I voted for Carter in '84 and Reagan in '88? "

LOL!!!

Cedarford said...

garage mahal said...
Joe
What I don't get is why you would prefer what's happened to our labor force the past 30 yrs? Why is that preferrable? We had the most expansive and robust middle class the world has ever seen. It's unsustainable where it's headed, and it won't be just some leftists in the streets, it will be Republicans and everyone else.

=================
Somehow the idea of conservatism, preserving the things that worked and were good for most Americans - got perverted by conservative ideologues into a worship of CEOs and Social Darwinism.
The people that say they stand for middleclass values now sneer at the "bitter people" of Flyover Country every bit as much as Obama did. And say that if the rich are now concentrating the wealth - it is the middle class's own fault for being so stupid they couldn't set up their own hedge fund selling rebundled mortgage derivatives.
They cheer Wall Street and deride factory workers, the "brainless" store clerks, blacks too lazy to take a pay cut and work as hard as an illegal.
They see the middle class as deserving of their fate, of having their industries hollowed out and shipped to China. They detest middle class people that belong to unions that "seek to steal" what should go to the Noble Owners.

Some have said that middle class jobs have declined because WWII gave us an artificial edge...ignoring that the middle class and manufacturing steadily rose from the 1870s up to the early 2000s in number and volume, though 65% of the wealth gains went to the Top 10% beginning around 1980 and workers wages were stagnant or declining after that point.

Garage is correct. The profound dissatisfaction with the American system and how the wealth is distributed has moved past the poor and is sweeping the middle class. And the message from the middle class is NOT - we LOVE the Owner Class and hate only Big Gummint. Not we love globalisation and free trade on China's terms but hate Obamacare.

The Tea Party was an early manifestation of the anger, but it is premature to think they are motivated by a desire to reward the wealthy and only attack Gummint. That was just the first target that early leaders who hated what DC was shoving on us wanted. Go to a Tea Party meeting and say how much you admire the Heroes of Wall Street and the bankers of Goldman Sachs...you will not get a warm response.

As massive new cuts are forced on the poor, they will take to the streets and I think the middle class will join in the activity when the next phase of their raping and destruction of their future becomes evident.

bagoh20 said...

I don't know how a group of people could be less attractive to working Americans than these OWS people. I really don't.

What could realistically be worse than a bunch of unemployed whiners calling for violence to take stuff other people worked for? Throw in some racism, filth and overwhelming stupidity, and how you gonna beat that?

I can't believe any politician would get anywhere near that. Just shows how desperate the Dems are.

Guys it's not that bad, you have a 50/50 chance at least and you have the incumbent. Chill.

OWS is an embarrassment. Everyone knows it, so at least act like you know it too.

garage mahal said...

Roger
Thanks for that, I'll definitely get in touch with them. I thought I would find a lot more info than I found just googling about his squadron. One thing I wish I did have was his Lucky Bastard Club Certificate.

AllenS said...

Cedarford said...
As massive new cuts are forced on the poor, they will take to the streets and I think the middle class will join in the activity when the next phase of their raping and destruction of their future becomes evident.

And then what? They will ask/demand what exactly?

chickelit said...

As massive new cuts are forced on the poor, they will take to the streets and I think the middle class will join in the activity when the next phase of their raping and destruction of their future becomes evident.

I sincerely doubt that Cedarford. If and when the riots break out across the country, the middle class will be looking for the police as surely as Althouse did when when "Mr Fist" got in her face. We've raised a generation of entitled youth who want what theirs now.

Jeez, what kind of a safe and cloistered neighborhood do you live in?

edutcher said...

Browndog said...

J lives in Kern county CA.

J is making Althouse blog hard to read.

Too many other things to read; not worth coming to this blog to feel like you're reading comments on "other" blogs.

I know Althouse is big on free speech. I agree. However, I have yet to see Althouse call him out--like she does with others.


Then don't read him. Maybe one comment in ten of his is coherent.

If he's that offensive to so many, shun him. Don't feed him, don't give him the encouragement.

When he's ready to act like a normal human being and respond rationally, then talk to him.

A number of the trolls have coma and gone here simply because people have gotten tired of their games.

PS I blow past a lot of Carol Herman's stream of consciousness unless she says something interesting that catches my eye.

But she's never offensive.

Scott M said...

I doubt seriously that the middle-class will join them. The middle-class have things like mortgages and real property to think about. If the "poor" take to the streets violently, the middle-class will sit back and watch the poor destroy their own neighborhoods and local shops just like they always do.

IF the violence threatens to spill into actual middle-class neighborhoods, only one or two examples will be necessary before the middle-class actively defends itself.

This isn't Great Britain.

chickelit said...

[amended]
As massive new cuts are forced on the poor, they will take to the streets and I think the middle class will join in the activity when the next phase of their raping and destruction of their future becomes evident.

I sincerely doubt that Cedarford. If and when the riots break out across the country, the middle class will be looking for the police as surely as Althouse did when when "Mr Fist" got in her face. We've raised a generation of entitled youth who want what their parents had now.

Jeez, what kind of a safe and cloistered neighborhood do you live in?

chickelit said...

@Cedarford: Regale us again with how this is all John McCain's fault, for having been a POW and for having chosen Sarah Palin. You are more eloquent than Althouse on that point even though you're both coming from the same place.

DADvocate said...

They know by their numbers it will kill X amount of jobs, and they fucking sign them anyway.

Because President Goldman Sachs and the other Dems are as in bed with corporations and the rich as the Repubs ever were. Look at the richest people in Congress, look at George Soros, follow the money.

Illegal immigration threatens a lot of starting level jobs, too.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Good point Jay. Garage doesn't believe govt growth has no detrimental effect on jobs and then complains Obama and the Dems support job killing trade bills.

How much you want to bet he still cheerfully votes for Bamster again?

Anonymous said...

CFudd is so utterly delusional. It is hilarious. The guy is losing it, clearly.

What will you do when your revolution fails to materialize, dude?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Funny how guys like garage worry so much about jobs going to foreigners overseas yet don't seem to mind foreigners coming here illegally to take what jobs are left.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Funny how a wingnut like me supports American auto workers by buying a new American car every few years but a certain liberal refuses to buy a new car and instead chooses used foreign made cars.

Anonymous said...

Jobs go overseas because wages are too high here thanks to (1) institutionalized union rules from a bygone era and (2) our incredibly high standard of living and (3) demand for inexpensive goods.

Which do you want, Garage? All three? It can't happen, dude.

As for foreigners coming here to take jobs, let me know the next time an American who will work as hard and as cheaply as a foreigner lines up to pick fruit or bus tables. I'll wait.

Matt said...

I think you'll see that [the Obama Admin] have positioned themselves in the middle ground... So Obama may have the right strategy: Characterize the protests as inarticulate cries of pain about problems that are real and that affect all Americans.

Agreed. They have taken the middle ground and that is the right approach. It's called giving a nod to your base but not embracing them so much that you turn off the swing voters.

Anonymous said...

It's Matt. Awesome. Hey Matt: remember when Obama and the Republicans scheduled events at the same time and you wanted Obama to "kick ass." How'd that ass kicking go? Did Obama keep his event at the same time and "kick ass"?

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

It's called giving a nod to your base but not embracing them so much that you turn off the swing voters
Yeah they’ll let the high unemployment and increasing inflation drive off the swing voters.

Automatic_Wing said...

As for foreigners coming here to take jobs, let me know the next time an American who will work as hard and as cheaply as a foreigner lines up to pick fruit or bus tables. I'll wait.

That's kind of the point, isn't it? Employers get the benefit of a sub-minimum wage worker to bus his tables at ultra-low cost while Americans who could do the same job sit at home and collect unemployment.

Good for the employer, good for the illegal immigrant, who at least is better off than he would have been back home, but very bad for the U.S. worker who otherwise would've filled that position.

Open borders is good for profits, at least in the short term, but not everyone comes out ahead. Unsurprisingly, low-skilled Americans who vote overwhelmingly for the Democrats are the ones who get screwed.

Scott M said...

All of this nonsense would not even be happening if we just beat our kids more.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

All of this nonsense would not even be happening if we just beat our kids more
I am willing to go and beat some of the Occupy(City) Folks, if you think it will make better citizens of them.

Anonymous said...

Maguro -- The reason that immigrants of all legal varieties win is because they go where the jobs are and they work hard. That's it.

Also, setting wages artificially high is one of the bigger parts of the problem. Nobody is working sub-minimum wage (though there are sectors that don't have a minimum wage, but since there isn't one, you can't say anyone is under what doesn't exist).

I have gone on record many times here as saying that I will fully support building the Great American Wall between the United States and Mexico. Short of that, you are going to have illegal immigration and there's nothing anybody can do about it. Note also that the penalties for illegal immigration are incredibly light, as they should be. It's the legal equivalent of filling out the wrong form.

bagoh20 said...

Take a look at these protesters, listen to them. Do you still wonder why illegal immigrants or workers in other countries take their jobs? Yea, blame the bankers, dude.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

All of this nonsense would not even be happening if we just beat our kids more
And kept them away from Wiccans, Satanists, and the purveyors of Gefilte fish and latkes.

Anonymous said...

"“The most important thing we can do right now is those of us in leadership letting people know that we understand their struggles and we are on their side, and that we want to set up a system in which hard work, responsibility, doing what you’re supposed to do, is rewarded,” Obama tells ABC News."

Deeper and deeper he goes....

Automatic_Wing said...

I have gone on record many times here as saying that I will fully support building the Great American Wall between the United States and Mexico. Short of that, you are going to have illegal immigration and there's nothing anybody can do about it.

Nonsense. All you have to do is make a serious effort to crack down on employers who hire illegals and stop larding illegals with free schooling and welfare bennies and the majority will leave on their own. You don't need to build a $10T wall or send in the SWAT team Elian Gonzalez style.

AllenS said...

Maguro said...
All you have to do is make a serious effort to crack down on employers who hire illegals and stop larding illegals with free schooling and welfare bennies and the majority will leave on their own.

I agree with that statement 100%.

Anonymous said...

All you have to do is make a serious effort to crack down on employers who hire illegals and stop larding illegals with free schooling and welfare bennies and the majority will leave on their own.

You are under the hilarious impression that the United States has the money and the resources to crack down in any such way. Are you aware that thousands of people spend their days checking out employers and employees in the way you suggest? It's fruitless, much like the war on drugs.

As for welfare benefits, which is it: are the illegal aliens taking American jobs or are they are on welfare? As for schooling, it is simply immoral for a great nation like ours to deny basic education to human beings simply because of a minor misdemeanor committed by their parents or guardians. Somewhere in your soul, you know that.

There's no way to stop illegal immigration without the Great Wall of the United States. There's not enough money, time, resources, or will. If you are not committed to this Great Wall, then you merely whining about things you do not like.

Kirby Olson said...

It's good to have this poll as it helps us to realize these people are completely unlike the Tea Party people, most of whom had never been in politics before. The MSM keeps saying, this is the Tea Party in reverse! Not so! sorry if the point has been made before. this is a very important article and thank you for linking to it.

Known Unknown said...

I am sure they would love to have your dad's logs

This made me snicker. Sorry.

sorepaw said...

What could realistically be worse than a bunch of unemployed whiners calling for violence to take stuff other people worked for?

I think the rest of the description is accurate, but according to Doug Schoen in the Wall Street Journal, only 15% of the OWS protestors interviewed were unemployed.

AllenS said...

Seven Machos said...
If you are not committed to this Great Wall, then you merely whining about things you do not like.

I've been to Stillwater Prison (MN) a bunch of times, and they have some big walls there. You know why the inmates don't try to get through or over them? Guard towers, and you know what's in the guard towers? Guard with guns and a willingness to shoot to kill.

Joe said...

(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)

Guard with guns and a willingness to shoot to kill

AllenS, that is not very nice, and you obviously need some sensitivity training.

AllenS said...

You wouldn't have to check every business in this country for illegals either. Just some well publicized fines one some businesses that employ illegals, and that will send a message to others about what they'll face if caught employing illegals.

Anonymous said...

If a $10,000 fine were levied against the employer for every illegal found to be working for them, the jobs would dry up and the illegals would go home on their own.

kjbe said...

What the heck is a "systematic random sample"?

J said...

Ah Joejoe Cuntor doesn't care for unions either,eh, or democracy. Maybe the US govt. should be like a monarchy! Maybe make BLoomberg.. Queen.

Kirby O the ex-beatnik doing his part for white collar crime as well.

Anonymous said...

Allen -- I think equating prisoners who live in tiny cells with free people who live in poor countries is pretty piss poor comparing. But whatever. Certainly, the Great American Wall will need at least some guards with guns.

If you think we have the resources to prevent employers from hiring illegal aliens with law enforcement and then criminal or civil trials, you are simply dreaming. You are no different from Garage, who believes that we can somehow have high-paying manufacturing jobs in the United States and meet the demand for inexpensive stuff.

I don't really understand the way people who are so against illegal immigration are also against the Great American Wall. It's not hyperbole on my part. I don't think there's anything wrong with the Great American Wall as a policy choice. It's not immoral like, say, denying children basic education because of choices their parents made.

Why the squeamishness?

Scott M said...

What the heck is a "systematic random sample"?

That's where you put a rigidly measured grid on the ground and, for each data point, stare at one, and only one, grid point in sequence while swinging your arms around trying to grab someone, anyone, to question.

J said...

speaking of assessment--since Joejoe Kuntor likes to fancy hisself a deepthinker at times-- is the usual NY shyster-financier smarter than say a schoolteacher (or even electrician)? Unlikely. Yet he makes hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of shekels per annum (ala Blankfein) and a hs teacher makes 40-50 grand if that. So like give them some standardized test..and adjust salaries accordingly. The average financier's a glorified bookkeeper. Or bookie.

Anonymous said...

Just some well publicized fines one some businesses that employ illegals, and that will send a message to others about what they'll face if caught employing illegals

Brilliant! How come nobody ever tried it? I could spend all day pulling up such articles.

If a $10,000 fine were levied against the employer for every illegal found to be working for them, the jobs would dry up and the illegals would go home on their own.

I don't think you understand the court system very well. What is the evidence that is to be provided. Is is strict liability? Is the law such that a company is guilty no matter what if an illegal immigrant is found to be working? I can think of a dozen ways to challenge that law and any prosecution under that law.

Again, I ask you: why not build the Great American Wall?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Open borders! Free edumacation for all!

Scott M said...

Again, I ask you: why not build the Great American Wall?

Baja, Pacific, Gulf Of Mexico. Shovels, air.

Automatic_Wing said...

You wouldn't have to check every business in this country for illegals either. Just some well publicized fines one some businesses that employ illegals, and that will send a message to others about what they'll face if caught employing illegals.

Precisely. You don't need to send out inspectors to every roofing contractor and motel in America, you just need to bust enough employers to make employing illegals an unappealing cost-benefit calculation for employers.

The whole "illegal immigration is an unstoppable force of nature" argument is pure bullshit designed to demoralize people who want to see something done about the issue. It is not an unsolvable problem by any means.

Anonymous said...

Baja, Pacific, Gulf Of Mexico. Shovels, air.

I think that the Great American Wall would put a far, far bigger dent into immigration than any of the unenforceable and/or draconian and unconstitutional measures suggested above. It would also be moral, which is always nice.

But taking what you say at face value, then you admit that the problem is intractable short of draconian policies that can't be enforced or that penalize innocent children?

Why support those policies? It's craziness.

Anonymous said...

Do you know what the term strict liability means? Do you understand that privacy issues trump what an employer can do to prove -- whatever that means -- that a person is legally in the country.

Moreover -- and tell me true -- have you ever even seen an visa for the United States?

Automatic_Wing said...

Brilliant! How come nobody ever tried it? I could spend all day pulling up such articles.

You linked to article showing that the Feds arrested a bunch of illegal workers at a chicken processing company. So what? No one ever claimed that the Feds never do immigration sweeps.

The real issue, which your article doesn't address is: What price did the employer pay?

Without severely punishing the employers, immigration sweeps are just a bit of law enforcement theater designed to show people that the Feds are "doing something".

Scott M said...

I was kidding. You don't need an entire wall.

Look at it militarily. You bring all the troops (or most of them) home from Korea/Europe and retask them to deploy on the southern border. In the cities bisected by a border, tough shit, we take the high road and level anything and everything back to 200-300 meters. Problem solved. It'll never happen though.

kjbe said...

No doubt the OWS protesters have some very left-wing, maybe even "radical" views -- but the core message of OWS itself is fairly mainstream. The top priorities of the protesters in his poll were influence of corporate interests, partisanship and joblessness.

Here's another interpretation of the raw data.

Anonymous said...

What price did the employer pay?

Allen -- This is what you are missing, dude. Employers can only go by the documents they are given. It cannot be on them to decide if a license or a social security card or or visa or whatever documentation is real. That is ludicrous and impossible.

What you are suggesting is that it is a crime for an employer to accept documentation if the documentation is fraudulent. There's no mens rea there -- no bad state that is necessary for the commission of a crime. The only way around that is strict liability under civil law, which means that employers would simply be guilty if they paid an illegal immigrant to work for them. That's very likely to restrict the economy and lead to a lot of completely understandable discrimination against many people.

I'm only going to explain this once. But please, think through your policy suggestions.

Kirby Olson said...

Tea Party was often Christian. I wonder how many in OWS consider themselves Christian, or pray, or attend a church. That data would be interesting! I would assume it's close to 0%.

chickelit said...

Hoosier Daddy said...
Open borders! Free edumacation for all!

Global wealth equilibration now!

Dissolve all political boundaries!

Remove all inequalities of any kind!

Maximize entropy!

MAKE EVERYTHING THE SAME EVERYWHERE, DAMMIT!

AllenS said...

How tall would this wall be? I own a 40 foot step ladder. You could probably buy a ladder like that in Mexico. Last week I dug a 47 foot trench. I'll bet I could dig under a wall.

Did I ever tell you people that when I was in my 20's I dug a basement under my house? I filled 5 gallon buckets up and carried them out through a trap door at first, then removed the floor of the porch and dug a ramp so I could wheelbarrow the dirt out. I built cement forms and mixed the cement right in the back yard with a cement mixer. I'll bet some Mexicans can work just as hard as me.

chickelit said...

The real issue, which your article doesn't address is: What price did the employer pay?

Whatever they pay extra, i.e., to get those kids off the NYC streets and into chicken processing plants will be passed on to chicken consumers like you and me.

Is that cannibalistic?

Anonymous said...

MAKE EVERYTHING THE SAME EVERYWHERE, DAMMIT!

Who is arguing for this concerning immigration? Immigration is a net winner in the long term and the short term for all economies. Economies without immigrants are dying countries. That's just fact.

The only issue is whether you can maintain your social fabric with the influx.

Scott M said...

Tea Party was often Christian. I wonder how many in OWS consider themselves Christian, or pray, or attend a church. That data would be interesting! I would assume it's close to 0%.

I've often wondered, especially when my wife was in one after having a baby, how many of the personnel working in hospital labor/delivery wards are pro-choice.

Anonymous said...

Allen -- Once you get it through your skull that your policy prescription is grossly untenable for a thousand reasons, you will understand that making arguments against the Great American Wall is only making your position against illegal immigration worse. If a wall won't stop illegal immigration, then illegal immigration cannot be stopped in a free economy where citizens and the businesses they own have access to due process.

AllenS said...

Seven, you don't have to catch them all.

AllenS said...

And, never say never.

Anonymous said...

Allen -- You cannot make strict liability against business owners the law. It's a nonstarter. You would be blaming business owners because people are able to successfully forge government-made and government-monopolized documents.

What part of this do you fail to understand?

MDIJim said...

Haven't had time to read the link or the comments here, but I generally agree with you. The OWS people are expressing a wide spread feeling that the banks got the gold mine and the middle class got the shaft.

In the 1970s, there were American soldiers dying on the battlefield and anti-war protesters were parading around with Viet Cong flags and burning US flags. Jane Fonda was actually photographed using a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun while John McCain, who was shot down by the NVA, was rotting in the "Hanoi Hilton" nearby.

Nothing like that is happening today. As the weather gets cold and snow starts to fall, the OWS encampments will fade away, but the pain will not. The only way Obama can win is to distance himself from his own economic policies. He can do that to some extent by identifying with the OWS protesters.

This time the mistake is being made by the GOP. Republican candidates should not repudiate OWS's pain. In fact, they should be out front in identifying OWS with the Tea Party because both groups feel that Washington is rigged against them, and that current policies are only helping the banks.

chickelit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AllenS said...

Seven,

If you have a successfully forged government document, you won't be caught. As I said, you can't catch them all.

chickelit said...

@Machos: It sounds to me like you'd be "for" a wall because you know that it would fail (see your 2:53). If you are genuinely for open borders, why don't you just say so?

In way, you remind me of Carol Herman and her politics: always tearing down one side & never suggesting an alternative. Comments which attempt to neutralize polarity are valuable and distinguishable from polemics, but they aren't much else.

Anonymous said...

If you have a successfully forged government document, you won't be caught.

Oh God, dude. You simply do not know what you are talking about. Step Two of illegal immigration is to get such a document.

Anonymous said...

Chicken -- I am for a wall and I believe it would succeed. Build it.

Automatic_Wing said...

You cannot make strict liability against business owners the law. It's a nonstarter. You would be blaming business owners because people are able to successfully forge government-made and government-monopolized documents.

So make identity documents harder to forge. Accepting something like a Social Security card as proof of authorization to work seems absolutely ridiculous. It's just a piece of paper with some numbers typed on it.

Anyway, I'm not sure I buy the idea that these Mexicans are making brilliant, indistinguishable-from-the-real-thing forgeries of government documents. A lot of these employers have to be in the know, right?

chickelit said...

Economies without immigrants are dying countries. That's just fact.

I was legal immigrant in Switerland in the early '90s. The Swiss had a thriving underground economy then as well. Social cohesion was tense and tested, and certainly only the Swiss were allowed to voted early and often. In some ways we are evolving towards a Swiss system regarding immigration and employment. Yes it helps a country thrive. Put don't pretend for second that it's "fair."

BTW, are there banking protests in Zurich?

J said...

Nachos-joto, clueless as usual .

THE wealthy GOP want illegal immigration , dumbass (as opposed to the poor GOP-TP trash such as you). Very cheap labor costs for agbusiness, construction , restaurants,etc. Any hard core anti-immigration policy ala Bachman will not fly outwest, no matter how much teabagger racists the A-tards or Kirby O want it..

Anonymous said...

So make identity documents harder to forge.

Oh come on man! States and the federal government spend hundreds of millions of dollars every few years updating their documents and trying to stay ahead of fraud. Moreover, you cannot present merely a Social Security card for a W-9.

A lot of these employers have to be in the know, right?

That's clearly the assumption among the people here who think it would be so easy to fine employers. The answer is obvious if you think about it: no. When a 16-year-old kid who just wants to buy some liquor can get a decent fake ID, you can be certain that a person who has risked his life and freedom to be poor in the United States will obtain a good fake ID.

It's not about identification, people. That is not the answer. If you want to end immigration, build the Great Wall. Otherwise, move on.

Anonymous said...

J -- I am the one percent.

J said...

chkie--gallina. YOU were told to ..stay offline, weren't ya perp? Now yr gonna have to learn the hard way

hasta, mafiosi-wannabe.

Anonymous said...

Chicken -- Don't worry about J. What is J. going to do to you? Ever since the shootings, he has been in a very-high security mental hospital.

Don't worry. Feel free to continue to debate.

Brian Brown said...

Kit said...

No doubt the OWS protesters have some very left-wing, maybe even "radical" views -- but the core message of OWS itself is fairly mainstream.


That level of delusion is quite impressive.

Brian Brown said...

This is hilarious. These people are on garage's level of stupid:

Are You Smarter Than a Wall Street Occupier?

Note that 68% of them don't know what the SEC is.

You can clearly see how the party these people vote for depends on their ignorance.

J said...

You think so Nachos tweeker-pedo?false accusation again, little perp. Matter of fact Google's on to this site and you. As are the Feds.And others.

We'll see Ahouse tweek scum

chickelit said...

@Machos: I try to ignore J over here. I deleted the one obscene comment he made on my blog.

J obviously had a lousy upbringing by someone who ignored the golden rule.

Anonymous said...

J. is simply crazy. You are a better man than me to ignore him.

garage mahal said...

You can clearly see how the party these people vote for depends on their ignorance.

You can't get enough of them Jaytard. How many more posts will we see from Jay telling us how insignificant OWS are? We're up to about 50 already.

"They nothing! Nothing I tell you!"

ken in tx said...

Interest is rent on money. It is no more unfair than paying rent on a car or a house. You would not expect to use someone else’s house for free, would you? Usury has no meaning in a free market. It only has meaning when money lenders can use government authority to enforce higher than market interest rates on the public. If you can’t afford the rent, don’t hire the money.

Love said...

Show me any polling that includes a total of 200 people (during an actual protest to boot), that anybody here, left, right or center, would consider even remotely accurate.

Ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

Ken -- I think there is such a thing as usury. A good enough example is Williams v. Walker Thomas Furniture, where a rent-to-own store put a security interest on all previously rented-to-own-and-owned stuff for each new thing rented. That's not fair. That's stealing, and you cannot argue that it was in the contract because you are dealing with -- in the rent-to-own business -- people who are not savvy and don't read contracts.

There can be unfair banking practices. But that's why we have laws. What the Occupy people want is after-the-fact trials when new laws aren't even in place (leaving aside for the moment the important questions about what any laws should be).

Love said...

Jay - Being a Tea Party member yourself, why would you think your inane comments denigrating the protests and protesters carry even an iota of credibility?

It's like having Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity providing commentary about Democrats, liberals or better yet, President Obama.

A waste of time.

Anonymous said...

Love -- Good to see you got yourself another computer, dude. Was it another $5500 job? I sure hope so. Aren't Mom and Dad great?

Anyway, good luck with your little movement.

Love said...

Seven Machos "Chicken -- I am for a wall and I believe it would succeed. Build it."

What would it cost and who would pay for it?

How long would it take to build?

Why do you think it would stop anyone from getting past it?

Provide factual evidence that such a fence would do anything to stop anything.

*And by the way: The federal government under President Obama has steadily increased the deportation of illegal immigrants. The Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agency says it's on track to expel some 400,000 people this year, 8 percent more than 2008 — the last year of the Bush administration.

Love said...

Seven Machos - Another computer?

Huh?

Anonymous said...

Love -- I'm so glad to see that you have taken the time to come here with your awesome and profound questions. I know you are a busy person, what with protesting and protecting all your stuff.

I have not broached the cost of a wall. I am saying -- and I think a person with basic reading skills would understand this -- that there is no way to stop or even stem illegal immigration without building the Great American Wall. I need not prove anything, nor can I, as I don't have data for the future.

As for your strange contention that deportation has increased under Obama, you are sadly misinformed. This is a problem with the young, stupid, and malleable. What has happened is that illegal immigrants are leaving because the economy is so utterly shitty under Obama.

But anyway, good luck with the protests of Goldman Sachs, far and away the largest contributor to Obama's 2008 presidential campaign.

Go get 'em, tiger!

Anonymous said...

Love -- I just searched the term 5500 in this thread. There are probably 30 instances.

I am sorry your vast intelligence and immense intellectual resources failed you. I trust it won't happen again. After all, you've probably got a bachelor of arts from a ritzy private college.

North Dallas Thirty said...

Conceivable, but I highly doubt it. We lost 50,000 manufacturing plants the past 10 yrs. I don't know how you draw a straight line between that and "growth of government", whatever that means.

Easy.

Another concern is further damage to the very issue President Obama is so determined to reverse — the unemployment rate. According to a Commerce Department analysis, the regulations would cost up to 60,000 jobs, a much higher figure than the agency originally forecast.

And you know those new lightbulbs your Obama Party wants to push on the rest of us? That's a two-fer; you drive out of business the incandescent bulb producers while your EPA regulations make producing their replacements in the United States cost-prohibitive.

Really, garage, do you ever think about these things? Your own Obama Party is making it clear that it doesn't care about US manufacturing jobs and is doing everything in its power to drive them overseas.

Love said...

Seven - "there is no way to stop or even stem illegal immigration without building the Great American Wall"

Wouldn't we need two walls?

And wouldn't we have to wall off those huge oceans?

Maybe a massive bubble is the answer.

Seven - "I have not broached the cost of a wall."

You don't think the cost is important?

Seven - "As for your strange contention that deportation has increased under Obama, you are sadly misinformed."

Again, this is not my "opinion," and overall poor economy certainly play into lessening the illegal immigration situation, but it has nothing to do with actual "deportation" statistics, since those people are already "here."

Via Immigration and Customs Enforcement:

"The federal government under President Obama has steadily increased the deportation of illegal immigrants. The Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agency says it's on track to expel some 400,000 people this year, 8 percent more than 2008 — the last year of the Bush administration."

Love said...

North Dallas Thirty - Yeah, it's those damned light bulbs that will ruin everything for everybody.

Who in the world needs to conserve energy?

Good grief.

garage mahal said...

As for your strange contention that deportation has increased under Obama, you are sadly misinformed. This is a problem with the young, stupid, and malleable. What has happened is that illegal immigrants are leaving because the economy is so utterly shitty under Obama

A deportation means you were caught and deported. It doesn't mean you left on your own. And it is increasing -- Obama is deporting at a record clip, more than Bush.

Anonymous said...

Love -- You don't understand the difference between the word contention and the word opinion. This makes you stupid.

I've had my fun at your expense. You didn't even realize it, which is a bit unfair. But it was still fun.

And I'm done now. Run along, little buddy.

Brian Brown said...

Love said...

Jay - Being a Tea Party member yourself, why would you think your inane comments denigrating the protests and protesters carry even an iota of credibility?


Um, I am not a "tea party member"

So epic fail, dumbass.

Brian Brown said...

Love said...

Show me any polling that includes a total of 200 people (during an actual protest to boot), that anybody here, left, right or center, would consider even remotely accurate.


I realize you don't like the fact that people who share your ideological views are exposed as morons, but you can not speak to the facts, hence your whining.

Brian Brown said...

garage mahal said...

You can't get enough of them Jaytard. How many more posts will we see from Jay telling us how insignificant OWS are? We're up to about 50 already.


Um, in a thread where the topic is OWS, I'm going to comment about the topic.

Idiot.

North Dallas Thirty said...

Who in the world needs to conserve energy?

Good grief.

10/18/11 5:32 PM

Go ahead and say, Love, that conserving energy is worth losing tens of thousands of jobs in the United States.

Liberals like yourself run away from consequences and responsibility for your actions. That's why you're shrieking about "income inequality" -- you hate the fact that people who didn't choose to be lazy bong-smoking hippies have more money than you do.

Anonymous said...

Obama is in no way deporting at a record clip. To suggest such shows a grasp of history that is comically poor.

I am not unimpressed with deportation numbers over those of George W. Bush, as you will recall that W. openly advocated for amnesty.

Obama is too much of a pussy to propose amnesty or anything remotely serious about illegal immigration.

Brian Brown said...

Love said...

North Dallas Thirty - Yeah, it's those damned light bulbs that will ruin everything for everybody.


Nice straw man.

Want to guess why you did that?

PS:

The last major GE factory making ordinary incandescent light bulbs in the United States is closing this month, marking a small, sad exit for a product and company that can trace their roots to Thomas Alva Edison's innovations in the 1870s.

Thanks for participating, idiot.

garage mahal said...

Um, in a thread where the topic is OWS, I'm going to comment about the topic

We noticed! It's clearly getting under your skin.

Anonymous said...

Dallas -- Yeah, those jobs and those families that depended on that money -- they don't matter. What's important is saving energy. Because the world is going to run out of energy. The sun is going to burn out. Something. I don't know.

I get called a Tea Partier so much here that I have started to identify, in spite of the fact that I am not a Tea Partier and don't identify.

Love said...

I would contend that having an opinion is pretty damn close to one contending that they believe something to be true.

Regardless, you haven't responded to any of my direct questions relating to this "great wall" you feel is necessary to keep you safe from those nasty illegals.

And you evidently have no idea what the word "deportation" means.

North Dallas Thirty said...

What would it cost and who would pay for it?

How long would it take to build?

Why do you think it would stop anyone from getting past it?

Provide factual evidence that such a fence would do anything to stop anything.


Hilarious.

If the wall-builders were paying kickbacks to the Obama Party like Solyndra did, none of this would be an issue.

It is beyond insane to watch people like Love who demand unlimited welfare checks for adult babies and half a billion dollar "loans" to failed solar companies suddenly start pretending they care about cost or efficacy.

Love said...

Seven - Without "energy" there would be no jobs.

If you want to test this theory...or "contention," the next time you try to start your car, empty out the gas tank first.

North Dallas Thirty said...

Watching Love and the other OWS drones is truly beyond hilarious.

If you want to blow their minds when they rant about "income inequality", ask if they make more than the janitor does.

Then when they do, point out that they are "oppressing" the janitor because if their employer weren't paying them as much, their employer could pay the janitor more.

Then when they whine, point out how selfish they are to want to be paid differently than the janitor and how that creates "income inequality", which is never justified and always bad by their own standards.

Anonymous said...

Love -- What in the world makes you think I am opposed to illegal immigration? Where is that in what I have posted? I have merely said that building a wall is the only way to stop illegal immigration. I have said that I would support that wall because it is moral, as opposed to, say, deportation.

Learn to read, dude. Learn to think. Up your sorry, sorry game.

As for your utter stupidity regarding the word contention and the word opinion, look at a dictionary.

Brian Brown said...

We noticed! It's clearly getting under your skin

Yeah, the ridicule and mocking clearly demonstrates that.

North Dallas Thirty said...

Seven - Without "energy" there would be no jobs.

And yet your Barack Obama systematically blocks any type of development of US energy resources AND imposes regulations that shut down US energy production facilities -- while blowing billions of dollars on "green" energy sources that don't produce and -- irony of ironies -- can't distribute power because Barack Obama and the Barack Obama Party oppose new transmission lines.

Since your Barack Obama is openly hostile towards and wants to curb energy production, what that makes clear is that Barack Obama opposes jobs.

Love said...

North Dallas Thirty - Solyndra was initiated under Bush.

As for the "great wall" you and the other chucklehead tout, let's take at how well the one started under Bush has fared:

According to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service:

The cost of building and maintaining a double set of steel fences along 700 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border could be five to 25 times greater than congressional leaders forecast last year, or as much as $49 billion over the expected 25-year life span of the fence,

A little-noticed study the research service released in December notes that even the $49 billion does not include the expense of acquiring private land along hundreds of miles of border or the cost of labor if the job is done by private contractors -- both of which could drive the price billions of dollars higher.

*Oh, and the new fencing has been breached more than 3000 times.

Dumb Plumber said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Oh my God. Love, you flaming moron. Without energy, there would be no people, no matter, no life.

Thank God the universe will never run out of energy, despite what you think you know.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Immigration is a net winner in the long term and the short term for all economies. Economies without immigrants are dying countries. That's just fact.

CONTROLLED immigration is a net winner. Immigration where the people who are coming to the country have skills that are useful, don't have criminal histories and are not carrying communicable diseases.

Just try to waltz your way into New Zealand for example. You have to prove that you deserve to immigrate there.

Employers can verify documents through various data bases. As a former bank employee, I know we had the capability to verify Social Security numbers and driver's license numbers. False numbers and duplicates were kicked back at us.

No one expects employers to be detectives, however....due diligence should certainly be a requirement and failure to exercise it should be punishable by fines or jail time.

Flooding the country with immigrants who have zero skills and zero education and who are illegally working using stolen identities or under the table depressing wages and not paying taxes....is NOT a net win for anyone.

Love said...

North Dallas Thirty "And yet your Barack Obama systematically blocks any type of development of US energy resources..."

Provide any objective links or evidence that that is the case.

And we all know you're talking about "oil"...but:

Obama has opened Alaska petroleum reserves to new drilling along with the East Coast.

Anonymous said...

Love -- Do you have any idea what Obamacare is going to cost? What it would cost to implement any of the goofy, poorly conceived ideas that the Occupy crowd wants?

You are arguing about money? Really?

But Obama is great. Goldman Sachs loves the guy. Goldman Sachs contributed more money to Obama than any other entity.

Truly, you are a tool.

Love said...

Seven - You don't discuss nor debate in a reasonable or intellectual manner.

I'm don't trying so don't waste any more time directing comments in my direction.

Anonymous said...

Love is like America's Politico but real.

My God!

North Dallas Thirty said...

North Dallas Thirty - Solyndra was initiated under Bush.

"Initiated"?

Really?

So what did that mean? The paperwork was filed?

You're spinning, boy. Who approved the loan? Who repeatedly blocked any enforcement of the loan terms? Who renegotiated the loan to screw taxpayers over and put large donors first?

That's right, silly Love, your Barack Obama. You don't want to admit that, but that's who did it.

That's typical, though. Liberals like you never accept responsibility for anything. You always blame other people and need the government to bail you out.

Brian Brown said...

Love said...

Seven - Without "energy" there would be no jobs.


And factories closing = JOBS!

Who knew!?

Brian Brown said...

Love said...

North Dallas Thirty - Solyndra was initiated under Bush.


And then what?

Kirby Olson said...

What do the AMerican Nazi party, Hamas and Barack Obama have in common? They all suppoort the OWS movement.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/News/tabid/178/nid/22978/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Anonymous said...

I'm not going to quit you now, Love. This is too much fun.

Here's a guy who supports a president who has put the country in a horrendous mountain of debt never before seen yet wants to cut costs on immigration control.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

North Dallas Thirty - Solyndra was initiated under Bush.

"Initiated"?

And then turned down.

Brian Brown said...

Provide any objective links or evidence that that is the case.

Why?

So you can ignore it like the simpleton you are?

PS:
Senior Obama administration officials concluded the federal moratorium on deepwater oil drilling would cost roughly 23,000 jobs, but went ahead with the ban because they didn't trust the industry's safety equipment and the government's own inspection process, according to previously undisclosed documents.


But hey, they did it for the environment, so it is all okey-dokey.

North Dallas Thirty said...

Provide any objective links or evidence that that is the case.

Easy.

And that's a great example. Obama's war on US energy production cost thousands of jobs directly -- plus, as you admit, since any interruption in energy reduces jobs, likely caused the loss of tens of thousands more.

Anonymous said...

Love will blame Bush in 3,2,1...

North Dallas Thirty said...

Love is hilarious.

I mean, seriously, "initiated"?

What should Bush have done? What on earth would Love have considered the right thing for Bush to do with Solyndra?

And then how does ANYTHING that Bush did with Solyndra justify Barack Obama approving the loan, extending the loan, ordering the DOE to ignore terms, ordering the loan to be restructured so that his donors got paid first, covering up the bad financial news, and then stonewalling and redacting every bit of information about it?

Oh, that's right, I forgot. "Black skin! I have black skin! Liberals like Love say I can do whatever I want because I have black skin!"

Brian Brown said...

What should Bush have done? What on earth would Love have considered the right thing for Bush to do with Solyndra?

Love is incapable of examining these questions critically.

However, say the Bush Admin killed the deal outright, it would be funny to watch the left drone on about how Bush killed "green jobs" which is one of the reasons for the high unemployment rate.

Isn't it funny how in liberal land their ideas never fail and the answer always is more government?

Anonymous said...

Isn't it funny how in liberal land their ideas never fail and the answer always is more government?

http://wspus.org/2009/11/socialism-was-never-tried/

Not a joke.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)



Oh Love’s on the “Bush initiated Solyndra” kick…next will be a Think Progress Timeline and the verb will be “considered”…ignoring that even Think Progress will point out the Bush Administration REJECTED Solyndra…in fact, the OBAMA Administration wanted to reject Solyndra, but Slow Joe and Obama and several politically connected afficials pushed it thru…

Love note, “Initiated” is NOT “Approved.”

viator said...

The US has been building walls which far exceed the length of the US Mexican border for many years. They run for thousands of miles total and are generally unremarked upon. Their cost is also barely noticed. These are the many sound barrier walls along the interstate highways system.

Further many other walls which have been built have expectations of close to zero leakage. These include 100's of km. of Israeli walls and the walls the US is presently building around all the bases where US personnel will live in Iraq. There is more than enough experience presently to build a relatively low cost wall that is very difficult to successfully overcome. The walls in Iraq are one piece precast concrete with flat self supporting bases which lock together sort of like giant Jersey barriers.

DOT.gov

Brian Brown said...

in fact, the OBAMA Administration wanted to reject Solyndra, but Slow Joe and Obama and several politically connected afficials pushed it thru…


Actually, it was the husband of the lawyer representing the firm representing Solyndra.

Brian Brown said...

Meant to say husband of the lawyer representing Solyndra.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)



I’m siding with AllenS…it’s not simply “A Wall”, nor is it only “Internal Enforcement”, it is also “Self-Deportation”….we make it harder to get here, harder to stay here, harder to work here, and harder to use the Welfare System, many illegals will go home.

Many may not equal MOST, I agree…and in some time, we will have to address those folks, and yes that probably means some form of Amnesty. But FIRST, Enforcement! And until Enforcement is applied and fails, Enforcement ONLY!

And Seven sorry about innocents lives being ruined, but if Mommy or Daddy were cooking Meth or robbing banks and got sent to jail innocents would suffer too…or is having children now to be a Get Out of Jail Free Card…”Gee Mr. Bundy, has you have CHILDREN, I guess we’ll just let you go.” No In-state Tuition for illegals…no AFDC, no WIC, no Section 8 housing, no jobs….

Seven you are using a variant of two arguments, “Can’t deport them all, so we can’t deport ANY” and “They do jobs Americans won’t do”…to avoid a Carol Herman length post I’ll stop here.

Hoosier Daddy said...

"... How many more posts will we see from Jay telling us how insignificant OWS are?.."

I want to see another post from garage saying government doesn't cause jobs to go overseas then complain that Obama and the Dems sign free trade bills that cost jobs.

Cause that's frickin comedy gold.

Love said...

DBQ - It wasn't "turned down" by Bush.

It was turned down by the Energy Department's credit committee.

Regardless, it's much ado about very little.

The story will be long gone within a matter of weeks.

*Would you like to discuss Halliburton and other contractors who reaped massive profits from the wars, along with bilking taxpayers for 100's o millions through fraud and waste?

Anonymous said...

And Seven sorry about innocents lives being ruined, but if Mommy or Daddy were cooking Meth or robbing banks and got sent to jail innocents would suffer too

So if parents have a meth lab or rob banks, we don't allow their children to learn to read and write and do math. That's your argument?

Sweet dreams with you and your conscience tonight.

Love said...

Hoosier Daddy - Since you and a few others here evidently fancy yourselves some kind of economic geniuses, and of course, blame the entire economic mess on President Obama, answer these questions:

1.When did the recession begin?

2.What was the unemployment rate the day President Bush left office?

3.Where did the DOW Jones stand the day he left office?

Anonymous said...

DBQ - It wasn't "turned down" by Bush.

It was turned down by the Energy Department's credit committee.


So Obama can take no credit for the assassination of Bin Laden or, in fact, anything at all that he did not personally do? So nothing, other than defecation and occasional masturbation.

Anonymous said...

Love will blame Bush in 3,2,1...

10/18/11 6:02 PM


Can I fucking call it or what?

Love said...

viator - You feel the sound barrier walls along the interstate highways system would suffice as a barrier to illegal immigration?

Are you also outlawing ladders, shovels, ropes and of course pole jumping?

Forget about it.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)



“They do jobs Americans won’t do”…

That statement is not complete and therefore is not true…the complete phrase is “They do jobs Americans will not do at the price offered.” A meat-packing plant in ND or SD got raided…and the fall-out was revealing. 200-300 Illegals got arrested…
Next week the line of AMERICANS at the Hiring Office stretched down the block…they don’t do jobs Americans won’t do!

HOWEVER, the Americans they hired, QUIT IN DROVES! Meat Packing is hard, grinding labour…and the locals wouldn’t do it, for the wage offered.

For Armour or Hormel to operate, then they must:
1) Hire illegals who work for rock-bottom wages, no benefits, and who cannot complain to Labour Cabinets, OR
2) Automate; OR
3) Increase compensation.
Right now, Hormel and Armour are looking at 1) hoping that Enforcement will fade away. But in the end, the public has to force Armour and Hormel to adopt 2) and/or 3).

Seven it’s called CAPITALISM, not “Indentured Servitude.” In Capitalism we invest in Capital, money and goods to increase productivity or profitability, NOT MORE PEOPLE. And that means Capitalism needs Enforcement of the borders, too.

Anonymous said...

Love -- So you've gone now from a wall being too expensive to a wall not working? What next?

I know! It will hurt the environment and consume too much of the limited energy in the universe. Right?

Love said...

DBQ - I stated a fact.

And no, President Obama didn't kill Bin Laden, but he had one hell of a lot more to do with it than Bush did with Solyndra being turned down by the Energy Department's credit committee what to do.

I bet he didn't even know about Solyndra.

This is nothing more than a conservative story that will die on the vine.

I'm surprised the Althouse Gang is still talking about it.

Google "Solyndra" and you get about 3 current day stories. A sure sign the party is over.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)
So if parents have a meth lab or rob banks, we don't allow their children to learn to read and write and do math. That's your argument


They can learn to read and write in Mexico, if they are MEXICANS…if they are US citizens they can learn to read and write, in the US, IN THE CARE OF FOSTER PARENTS…as Mama y Pappa will be in Mexico.

Love said...

I notice none of the local economic geniuses have jumped in to answer my questions. Geee, I wonder why?

1.When did the recession begin?

2.What was the unemployment rate the day President Bush left office?

3.Where did the DOW Jones stand the day he left office?

Anonymous said...

Joe -- And you are back to Square One. What about in the weeks to years when their parents are not deported to Mexico, or the courts haven't found a foster home, or their case is tied up for forever in immigration court?

Think, dude. Think about the interim.

Anonymous said...

Love -- Why do you get to ask the questions?

Fuck your questions. Obama owns the terrible economy and he's going to get slaughtered in about a year. It's racist, I know. But it's true.

Big Mike said...

@Love, Obama was hired to fix the mess. He made it worse.

When I hire someone to fix something around the house that I can't do myself, I expect them to fix it. If they can't fix it, they shouldn't agree to take the job. If they don't fix it, I invite them to leave the house and not come back.

Anonymous said...

And no, President Obama didn't kill Bin Laden, but he had one hell of a lot more to do with it than Bush did with Solyndra being turned down by the Energy Department's credit committee what to do.

As long as we are asking questions, you know this how? Was Obama on the SEAL team? Was he a spy in Pakistan? What did he do exactly? Other than masturbate occasionally?

Love said...

It's amazing how much screaming and whining you get here about illegal immigration; as if that's the most important element of the poor economy or unemployment.

The vast, vast majority of jobs handled by illegal and legal immigrants, primarily from Mexico, are jobs that almost no white Americans would do.

Right now the states that have implemented draconian laws over the past few months are literally watching their crops die on the vines because they can't find the labor force to handle the everyday work that was being done.

Georgia: "Farmers are reporting that without immigrant labor their crops are rotting in the fields and they stand to lose millions of dollars."

Texas: “We pay fair wages; we just can’t find enough legal U.S. workers to come work in the fields,” Bruce Frasier, owner of Dixondale Farm in Carrizo Springs, Texas, said.

Alabama: Crops are rotting in the fields because farmers can't find enough workers to harvest them. Even legal immigrants are not showing up for jobs at construction sites and poultry plants because, agriculture and industry officials say, they fear a hostile state climate.

Etc., etc.

Anonymous said...

Love -- So you have no shifted to an argument that illegal immigration is good.

So, let's see. A fence is too expensive and Obama is deporting illegal aliens because they are bad but illegal aliens are good but a fence would never work.

Is that the argument, dude? Is that it in a nutshell?

Love said...

Big Mike - So you feel that the "mess" should all be "fixed" by now? The entire worldwide economic mess?

How about throughout the rest of the world?

Is President Obama the reason it's not all "fixed" there, too?

This is all nothing more than conservative political blather.

Anonymous said...

Love -- The Europeans and the United States are pursuing the same poorly conceived solutions. Thus, they are seeing the same sad, sorry outcomes.

Obama is going to get trounced because his policies failed. That's the end of the story. Is it a racist story? Will the environment suffer? Will there be enough energy in the universe to hold a vote?

Love said...

I guess I'll have to answer the questions, since no one here evidently has a clue:

1.When did the recession begin? (December 2007 - 13 months BEFORE President Obama took Office)

2.What was the unemployment rate the day President Bush left office?
(7.6% the day Bush left office and 8.2% three weeks later)

3.Where did the DOW Jones stand the day he left office? (You'll ALL love this: At the end of Clinton's second term, on the day Bush took office, the DJIA was at 10578; that is the market Bush inherited from Clinton. When Bush left the Oval Office on January 20, 2009, the Dow was at 7949, the market Obama inherited from Bush)

Today it stands at: 11,577.05

And you want to blame President Obama?

I-don't-think-so.

Anonymous said...

So, Love, is all that why you love Occupy, who protests those evil investment bankers from Goldman Sachs, who bankrolled Obama's 2008 campaign?

Sounds a lot like your "argument" about illegal immigration, dude.

Obama's going to lose in a landslide. Enjoy!

Love said...

I'd love to stick around to further education many here, but this is the precise moment I like to start drinking.

And I find that to be much more important.

Study up and get back to me.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)



Love, what was the AVERAGE unemployment under Bush, as compared to Obama, BTW? What was the average GNP under Bush? What was the average Net Worth of the US household, under Bush?

Oh the old, “Crops rotting in the field” trope…get back to me on how many veggies ACTUALLY rot as opposed to farmers TALKING about them rotting.

AND the answer is:
1) Automate ;
2) Move production offshore…Chileans will pick the fruit/veggies for the price offered…UNTIL Chileans won’t do it for that price and then..well the Chileans can decide whether to import illegals or automate.

chickelit said...

Love, picking crops is still just seasonal work. And nobody's building houses. Most illegal labor self exports. It's the Swiss model.

Just sayin'

richard mcenroe said...

Obama's in a cleft stick: you go to war with the troops you have... and sometimes they shoot you in the back.

Jose_K said...

Since , his teleprompter was stolen, he willbe quiet for a while

Michael said...

Love. 9.1%. Hold that thought. 9.1%. The recession officially ended in the summer of 2009. 9.1%.

9.1%

Michael said...

Garage. You are right about the OWS. It is reflective of the Democratic Party. No question about it. It is a spectacular success, an amazing distillation of the ideas of the left boiled down to the very nectar of what the whole country really wants and needs.

Big Mike said...

Is President Obama the reason it's not all "fixed" there, too?

Nope, just the reason it's not fixed here in the US.

This is all nothing more than conservative political blather.

Nope. Sorry, "Love," but it's reality. Pity you live in a real world.

And regardless of where the Dow Jones stood or stands, w.r.t. unemployment we have never recovered from the recession that, I grant you, began on George Bush's watch. The economy was broken, and his overpriced attempt at a repair -- the "stimulus" that has stimulated nothing except massive deficits and further unemployment -- has made it worse. There is nothing more to be said. For the sake of this country he must go.

ampersand said...

I can totally see some Citi execs laughing and high fiving each other while doing lines of coke off some hooker's ass

That reminds me. Happy Birthday Bill Clinton. I wonder what Bob Rubin got him?

bagoh20 said...

Documents will always get forged, the wall will get breached, and some employers will violate the law when it makes economic sense, but all three problems given a decent degree of attention will combine to greatly curtail illegal immigration.

Documents:
The scam is easy. You simply adopt someone else's identity and get documents with your photo combined with their info. It's fool proof. I don't know what the real Jose Montoya looks like, so how can I say it's not him.

The solution is a database with photos so all you have to do is pull up his SS# or Alien ID# and see if the photo is him. Without that, documents mean nothing.

Enforcment:
As an employer, I can tell you that getting busted by the government is a scary thing regardless of whether I think I have a strong defense or not. I don't want to hire a lawyer, and most employers don't hire just one employee, so the cost could be enormous, not to mention the disruption.

The wall:
I have talked to many illegal aliens, and getting across the border is no harder than taking a hiking vacation in Arizona. They go back and forth all the time, and the only impediment now is the money it cost.

So, all three remedies are needed and each by itself helps a little, but the combo is what will really work.

Now, if we succeed at greatly curtailing illegal immigration, get ready for enormous disruptions in especially the southwest. My gut feeling is that about half of the employees are illegal in the manual labor jobs in California at least.

Employers don't hire illegals primarily because they are cheaper. Usually they get paid the prevailing wage. The difference is that they work much harder, and show up dependably. They don't have the delusions of grandeur so present among American workers.

Anonymous said...

The difference is that they work much harder, and show up dependably. They don't have the delusions of grandeur so present among American workers.

Doesn't this tend to undercut any rationale for seriously stemming illegal immigration? Don't we want this infusion?

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)
Doesn't this tend to undercut any rationale for seriously stemming illegal immigration? Don't we want this infusion


I have NO problem with Legal Immigrants, the more the merrier…The “prevailing wage” though is a DEPRESSED prevailing wage, the wage offered for meat-packing and dry walling has been constant or decreasing for a decade or more…meaning that yes ILLEGALS work for the prevailing wage, but that the presence of millions of unskilled labourers DEPRESSES that “prevailing wage.”

Bruce Hayden said...

Snooze and you lose. I was out today during this, and missed out on much of the fun.

But getting back to the original post - Obama doesn't have a choice here - this is his base, and he has to shore it up before he can try to veer back to the middle. I just don't think that he will be able to.

Someone, I think that it might have been Cain, suggested calling the rest of us the 75%. You have two competing narratives. One that the evil bankers and corporate CEOs have stolen from us, and we deserve to get our "fair share". And, the second, that if you work hard, pay your bills, follow the rules, you will do ok. Unfortunately for Obama and the Democrats, the 75%, most of the middle class, believe the second.

Every socialist slogan, defecation in inappropriate place, and act of cry babying, will just cement this dislike of this portion of the electorate by the 75%.

While the Democratic politicians and OWS people do not see it, many of the rest of us see the utter hypocrisy of much of this protest. We have, in those Democratic politicians, the worst in this hypocrisy - many of their members have come from extremely privileged backgrounds (and those, like Harry Reid, who did not, have managed to accumulate fortunes while in "public service"). Pelosi, for example, whose father was mayor of, I believe, Baltimore, and whose husband is worth many millions.

Oh, and then there was the poster of Obama recently proclaiming that he was the 1% - grew up outside the U.S. and in Hawaii, attended private school, then Columbia and Harvard, has a private jet, etc.

Are any of them giving away their millions in the name of solidarity or fairness? Of course not. They have theirs - it is just our money that they want to redistribute.

They are the parasite class. Most of them have not earned their fortunes, but rather inherited theirs, married theirs, or stole it while in office.

I think that the girl whining about her $5k laptop being stolen is going to go down as one of the images that stick with this protest. That laptop, now redistributed to the more needy, was made through the genius of the late capitalist billionaire Steve Jobs.

It is just one more vivid reminder to the 75% who would rather be following the American Dream that these nut jobs do not represent us, and do not portray an America that most of us want to live in.

AlphaLiberal said...

I like Steve Benen's take better:

Doug Schoen isn’t helping his reputation

Pollster Doug Schoen is the quintessential “Fox News Democrat.” He loosely identifies himself as a Dem, but as someone who’s actively hostile towards Dems and the party’s agenda, Schoen is really only popular as a personality in GOP media. Fox News gets to tout its “balance” by inviting him on the air — Republicans who hate Democrats are joined by Democrats who hate Democrats.


Taxes are at a historic low now, by the way.

bagoh20 said...

"Don't we want this infusion?"

Well, first it helps to lower respect for all law, and it has financial costs as well. The cost benefit is complicated, but the cost side is substantial. I don't know if it worth it. I just don't know.

The sticky problem I see is what do you do about people who have been here illegally for decades have legal children in school, own homes, are married to legal residents or citizens. There are tens of millions of them.

They are here partly becuse we didn't act like we minded for a long long time. It would be like going back and giving speeding tickets for breaking the speed limit 10 years ago. Hey everyone was doing it.

AlphaLiberal said...

Schoen has serious credibility issues (a.k.a. LSOS):

At Capital New York, Azi Paybarah has obtained the full poll results, and Schoen appears to have grossly misrepresented the results of his poll. He writes that a “large majority” are bound together by support for a “radical redistribution of wealth.” But when he asked the protesters what they’d like the Occupy Wall Street movement to achieve just 4 percent said “radical redistribution of wealth,” which tied for last on the list of answers given. There is no mention of “radical redistribution of wealth” anywhere else in the poll. […]

Similarly while Schoen writes that a “large majority” express “opposition to free-market capitalism,” when asked what frustrates them most about the U.S. political process, just 3 percent named “our democratic/capitalist system.” Out of 198 respondents, that amounts to 5 or 6 people, which is quite the opposite of a large majority.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)
Taxes are at a historic low now, by the way


Not rate-wise…Revenues are down, not rates…

But beyond that no one denies that rates are where they have been for at least 8 years. What we realize is that in order to “pay for” all these large government solutions taxes will have to “necessarily skyrocket.” In fact, what is the ONLY solution offered by Pelosi/Reid/Obama taxes….on “millionaires”.

Big Mike said...

The solution to illegal immigration is easy. You make limousine liberals and country club Republicans mow their own damned lawns and mop their own damned floors and change their babys' diapers themselves.

No need for illegals anymore.

@Alpha, this is sarcasm. Don't fly into one of your petulant little rages.

Bruce Hayden said...

1.When did the recession begin? (December 2007 - 13 months BEFORE President Obama took Office)

And, yes, almost two years after the Democrats retook Congress. And, Congress is the branch where spending bills originate (or, to be more accurate, Nancy Pelosi's House).

Nevertheless, that misses the point that most of America now sees, and that is that we have gone through recessions throughout our history on a regular basis. The two times though in the last century when we have not recovered from them in a year or so were begun under Republican Administrations, which rapidly transitioned to Democratic ones, and with both Houses of Congress and the Presidency in their hands, in both cases, the Democrats drove us much further into the recession, and in the one case, depression.

Maybe this one would have been worse than usual because of the bursting of the housing bubble and the resulting meltdown resulting from all those subprime mortgages going under water (thanks, of course, to Democratic policies of forced lending to those who couldn't afford the loans).

But we will never know. What we do know is that the Democrats, since 2007 (when they retook Congress) managed to drive the federal government's share of GDP up by 5% or so and the federal debt skyrocketed some $4.5 trillion, while unemployment skyrocketed, and then stayed high. We were promised less than 8% unemployment if Stimulus I were passed, and it has stubbornly remained above 9% ever since.

I never understood why, but going into the 2008 election, and for quite awhile before that, the American people tended to trust the Democrats more than the Republicans to run the economy. It never made sense to me, as they never showed me that they know how either jobs or wealth were created.

Nevertheless, this faith in the Democratic party to better run the economy has been shattered by the last 3-5 years of Democratic rule. And, unless the Republicans screw up royally when they get power this coming election, this trust in the Democrats to run the economy will have been lost for a generation.

You, the OWS protesters, Democratic politicians, and MSM reporters and pundits can try to change the subject as much as you can, can try to divert us from financial reality and responsibility, but I have little doubt that when Americans are asked next year whether they are better off then, or four years earlier, a majority will know the answer, and which party was primarily responsible for their current situation.

Automatic_Wing said...

Doesn't this tend to undercut any rationale for seriously stemming illegal immigration? Don't we want this infusion?

Depends on who you mean by "we". For businesses that use a lot of unskilled labor, the more the merrier because that lowers their costs. That's why the Wall St Journal loves open borders - cheap labor galore!

For unskilled Americans, it's a disaster because not only is global trade eliminating a lot of the jobs they're capable of doing, immigrants are coming over and taking a lot of the ones that are left.

For the nation as a whole, it causes a lot of problems because the Americans who've lost their place in the economy to harder working immigrants become a burden to society. What are these people suposed to do with their lives?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Doesn't this tend to undercut any rationale for seriously stemming illegal immigration? Don't we want this infusion?

Ok then lets just get rid of immigration laws altogether. Anyone who wants to come in the US can, no papers, no questions asked.

Obviously having 10-12 million illegal aliens is a benefit then lets just bring in 20 million or 30 million. The more the merrier. Oh and lets make sure that the illegal alien gets to pay instate tuition for college while my American citizen kid pays more being out of state.

Cause obviously being out of the country is a bonus.

Remind me again why the fuck being an American citizen means anything?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Hoosier Daddy - Since you and a few others here evidently fancy yourselves some kind of economic geniuses, and of course, blame the entire economic mess on President Obama, answer these questions:

Here's an answer for you Jeremy.

Piss off. You're a moron, an idiot, nothing more than a worthless troll who comes up with a new sockpuppet because you're a loser. You love Obama we know. You hate Bush, we know. Everything is BUsh's fault, Obama can do nothing wrong in your eyes. We know all this.

Now go away.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)
Remind me again why the fuck being an American citizen means anything

It means you have to pay Income Taxes….or FICA…..

Hoosier Daddy said...

I have merely said that building a wall is the only way to stop illegal immigration.

Nope. Simply impose a massive fine and the promise of jail time on offending businesses. And don't tell me that won't work Seven because it will provided the threat of enforcement is backed up. That's why the majority of people don't deliberately cheat on their tax returns. Oh cure the chance of an audit is rare but Allah have mercy on your soul if you get nailed.

All you have to do is make a few examples and everyone toes the line. I've seen Federal agencies at work and they can be pretty ruthless when they want to be.

Hoosier Daddy said...

It means you have to pay Income Taxes….or FICA…..

Oh thats right. They need patsies to pay for everyone's free fucking pony.

I keep forgetting my place in the grand scheme of liberal utopia.

sorepaw said...

I bet he didn't even know about Solyndra.

Barack Obama gave a speech on the premises, and he didn't know about Solyndra.

Right.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Ok I have an idea, a compromise if you will. How about we import all the illegal aliens who want to work and deport all of the American citizens who don't?

Any takers? Anyone? Bueller?

sorepaw said...

Matter of fact Google's on to this site and you. As are the Feds.And others.

Batshit craziness.

But J is already know for that.

SukieTawdry said...

Obama is not good at "performing empathy." In fact, he's terrible at it and few buy his act when he chooses to "perform" it (I didn't buy Bill Clinton's either, but plenty did as he was pretty good at that particular con).

Big Mike said...

Dammit, Hoosier, that's brilliant!!!

There's a bunch down at Zuccotti Park in New York City could be on the first plane out. Trooper York can give you directions if you need it.

Don't forget to fumigate the plane afterwards.

Joe said...

(The Crypto Jew)
Matter of fact Google's on to this site and you. As are the Feds.And others.

Batshit craziness.

But J is already know for that


All joking aside…I’m beginning to feel very, very sorry for “J”. If he’s not a sophisticated sock poppet, s/he is a very sad, sick person…the anger, the isolation…I weep.

Now I’m safe, I doubt “J” will look ScottM or I up, but seriously Althouse, be really, really careful…I really fear “J” could pull a “Jared Laughner” on you or Meade. He knows you, you are discrete and findable…I just could see him confronting one or both of you.

S/he’s not just a figure of fun, “J” is potentially one of those sad and dangerous loners…

«Oldest ‹Older   201 – 400 of 412   Newer› Newest»