So said Bonnie A. Perry, an Episcopal Bishop, quoted in a NYT article that's mostly about a Lutheran pastor, Jonathan Barker, who resigned from Grace Lutheran (in Kenosha, Wisconsin) rather than give up on his plan to deliver a sermon about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, endorsing her as a Democratic Party candidate for President in the 2028 election.
The article is "He Tried to Endorse From the Pulpit. He Wound Up Without a Church. The I.R.S. says churches can now support candidates during services, but many denominations still forbid it. A Wisconsin pastor learned the hard way."
So is this about religion or tax exemptions? Bishop Perry refers to "my tax-exempt status," but it's about the ability of all the donors to her church to claim a tax exemption.
That doesn't mean they should. They may, like Perry, wisely refrain from losing their clout, their fervor, their credibility. Who would go to church to be harangued about voting for the latest Democrat? And then on top of that, you have to worry that you might lose their tax deduction if your church strays beyond the limited concession made in settling that lawsuit.
The churches have good reason to maintain a wall of separation between "the garden of the church" and "the wilderness of the world," even if there's a loophole in the tax law.
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59 comments:
Somewhere there’s a Hawaiian judge at the ready to compel worship leaders to endorse Democrats…
Who goes to church more: Democrats or Republicans? We'll find out when preachers start talking about elections, then by golly, it'll be a bad, no-good, absolutely horrible, worst thing ever ! Trump is already ahead of them.
News flash: Lutheran pastor finishes sermon, steps on rake leaving pulpit.
Wise pastors stay out of politics.
Congregations are mixed.
Democrats demand politics be injected into everything.
They see themselves as self-righteous. They are blind to the left's corruption and lies.
"It used to be clear that endorsing a political candidate would disqualify a church from its tax-exempt status,"
I think in practice there have always been a lot of tacit endorsements of politicians and parties particularly in the Black churches. But also in other denominations as well, how is the typical Catholic supposed to interpret a Bishop excommunicating Nancy Pelosi?
Poster child for why the Episcopal church has collapsed into near-irrelevancy in the last two generations, beginning with Bp. Pike in New York.
Fifty years ago there were some 3 million people worshiping each Sunday as Episcopalians in the US, and an equal number of Anglicans in Uganda.
These days Episcopalians have lost the Christian plot and have perhaps 300,000 in church on Sunday. Meanwhile in Uganda it's about 12 million.
Leadership of Christianity passed first from the Mediterranean to Europe. In our lifetimes it has passed to the Global South, a shift of historical import.
You can’t make your point from the pulpit without endorsing a candidate by name? That’s just poor rhetorical skill.
These alleged Christian pastors are each vying to be the biggest streetwalker in the Democratic Party's stable of hookers.
Many D's have a religious fervor about their political beliefs. The whackos with 58 bumper stickers, for example. Many reject religion and have a need to fill that void with politics. The politically active lefty pastors are a different story altogether. Craziest of the bunch in my observation.
I dont think it is a good practice to endorse a candidate but I dont mind if a pastor does it. Tells me a huge amount about them and their priorities and who they actually see as lord and what they see as the kingdom of that lord. Tells me quickly not to bother with that church, no matter which political side they choose. Jesus had disciples with very different politics and he himself avoided partisanship. He was always direct action within specific contexts amd about transforming the people around him amd with him.
"Leadership of Christianity passed first from the Mediterranean to Europe. In our lifetimes it has passed to the Global South, a shift of historical import."
There were a lot of Catholics in the West that hoped that Robert Sarah, an African Cardinal, would have become Pope.
I have been in ministry for more than 50 years. I have never endorsed a candidate or a party, but always felt free to identify Biblical issues. A pastor's judgment about a candidate is no better than any of his congregants' judgement about a candidate.
“Some conservative churches, urged on by Mr. Trump, interpreted the statement as a green light to plunge into political activism. An arm of the Southern Baptist Convention said the I.R.S. statement would allow “religious leaders to minister more effectively to their congregations.” The Family Research Council, an advocacy group that promotes conservative values, is already trying to organize 18,000 pastors for next year’s midterm elections.”
Everyone wants to be an influencer, not a theologian.
"It's just a matter of getting the messaging right. How hard can it be?" - Jonathon "Carnival" Barker , Ex-pastor.
Who goes to church more: Democrats or Republicans?
Maybe someone polls that way but IDK. The standard results are that conservatives have higher rates of church attendance, charitable giving, and report personal happiness higher than the other end of the political spectrum. Leftists will vote to spend public money but rarely contribute their income to charities, attend church less frequently and report levels of personal despair and psychological problems at far higher rates than conservatives.
sharecropper said...
A pastor's judgment about a candidate is no better than any of his congregants' judgement about a candidate.
Thank you. That's really all that needs to be said about spouting politics at church. You're not qualified nor authorized.
We've had this imposed on us once. A captive audience forced to hear personal opinions of the politics of the day, when all they want is to hear messages that are thoughtful and timeless.
Seems to me that, despite the threat of losing tax-exempt status under the Johnson Amendment, no church endorsing a democrat has been so punished. Come to think of it, it's always only threatened against churches who endorse non-democrats. There are organizations whose existence is premised on enforcing "separation of church and state" by which they mean to push any mention of Christianity out of the public sphere, but none, as far as I know that expressly exist to make Christianity the state-compelled religion.
care to attribute your quote - Inga?
I recall the very first thing the current mayor of Salt Lake City, Utah, a Democrat did when she won election. Salt Lake is, very sadly, essentially San Francisco in the Rockies now. It's also the headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which founded the city and still puts in billions of dollars into the city because they don't want their headquarters to look like Detroit.
Her first action was to go to the Church leaders and demand they change church doctrine to ordain lesbian ministers and put them in charge of the faith.
Odd, how none of the local Democrats screamed about "wall of separation between church and state!" while the elected official was making demands on a church to change their doctrine.
I wonder why Democrats approved of that, considering the hissy fit they threw when one of the said church leaders gave a talk discussing how abortion is a moral sin. "That's a violation! Politics! Tax them! REEEEE" they screamed. But a government official trying to just up and demand a religion change their doctrine to push leftist morality? Not a peep from the left.
The Church just (I assume) explained the facts of life to the mayor and how they didn't have to keep spending a billion a year in her city and she would be the one to destroy the economic heart of the city.... and she backed off.
A Lutheran pastor endorsing Bolshevik Barbie for President would have been right at home with a congregation in East Germany.
The Democrat Party, certainly its Woke faction (which seems to occupy the leading role in the Party), is best viewed as a cult. A cult trying to become a religion. It is using the husk of mainstream American Protestant Churches and sympathetic elements of the American Catholic Church as one of the vehicles to spread the word: DEI, Woke, Green, Open Borders. Let's face it: to the good bishop and most Protestant ministers and a fair number of Catholic priests and bishops, traditional Christian beliefs in God, the soul and an afterlife derived from the Old and New Testaments are an embarrassment. At best, a gateway to bring the naive around to the true materialist, Progressive worldview.
“care to attribute your quote - Inga?”
It’s in the article Althouse posted.
In my entire life as a Catholic, I have never once heard a priest (including the Jesuits) endorse a political candidate from the pulpit.
This WI guy has bad judgment.
Wuss = weasel and pussy
Inga, I'm glad to see you pushing back against political activism in churches. Do you have any quotes handy for pushing back against the black churches who routinely invite prominent Democrat candidates like Hillary to come and practice their ghettospeak when they deliver their apostolic sermons ("Ah ain't no ways taard...")?
Seems to me that, despite the threat of losing tax-exempt status under the Johnson Amendment, no church endorsing a democrat has been so punished. Come to think of it, it's always only threatened against churches who endorse non-democrats.
Yes this and the rest Devo wrote is 100% correct.
The "prophetic" may sound good and noble in divinity schools. By the time it reaches the real world, there's not much of it left. It's just more posturing and politicking.
That's understandable. Isaiah and Jeremiah didn't have a party or a foundation. If they had such things, they might have been more effective, but also more compromised.
Is there any ambivalence about "the prophetic"? The prophets had a strong sense of "social justice," but also a real ferocity against people who thought differently.
Given the low take rate of the left for religion, ethics, or morality, much less common sense, perhaps this isn’t a big issue.
I see there are those here who read the story about flagrant political proselytizing by Democrats and immediately think it's a horrible idea if Republicans start to organize to do it better. But: Nothing critical to say about the Democrats who started it. Personally, I could never take spiritual guidance from a preacher so conceited, they think political instruction is more important.
I particularly like how the left reveres (heh) the Reverend Martin Luther King. If you disagree with what King said as claimed by the left (and only their interpretation... his actual words are irrelevant and how dare you cite them or other inconvenient facts like he was a Republican, bigot!), you must be immoral! The left's view of Dr. King is the abolute moral authority!
So you have to bow to The Reverend King.... but when Romney ran it was the end of morality since Romney was a local leader in his church.
Carter? We have to praise him for his Christianity as view by the left! Romney? Bush? If they are Republicans, we cannot even whisper of their faith.
Remember Romney? People like Inga savaged him. "He has binders of women! He tied a dog to his car! He gave a kid a haircut! He's worse than Hitler! It's the worst possible moral choice! REEEEEE!"
If Mitt Romney was worse than Hitler... well, that's how you got Trump, isn't it. Republicans tried the most saintly, milquetoast, personally great guy I think the Republicans ever ran and how was he treated by the left?
So now we have Trump. Because if all Republicans are evil amoral barbarians, then by golly that's what we are going to get: someone to go after his foes and enjoy listening to the lamentations of their women.
"The "prophetic" may sound good and noble in divinity schools. By the time it reaches the real world, there's not much of it left. It's just more posturing and politicking."
I was surprised that a Christian pastor would use the term prophetic to describe themself. I thought it was pretty widely accepted Christian doctrine that there were no new prophets after Christ.
Priests and ministers who tell me their political views give me a window into the worth of their spiritual insights. Talk away, Reverend.
"I thought it was pretty widely accepted Christian doctrine that there were no new prophets after Christ."
That's not Christian doctrine. We have passages in the NT that talk about the gift of prophesy and prophets https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012%3A27-29&version=NIV
But that gift is oriented towards the revelation of Christ and the Holy Spirit. There are also a lot of teachings about false prophets. Not everyone who says they are a prophet really is a prophet in a Christian sense. Lots of people throughout history have caled themselves a prophet but are not speaking truth or wisdom
“I was surprised that a Christian pastor would use the term prophetic to describe themself. I thought it was pretty widely accepted Christian doctrine that there were no new prophets after Christ.”
I too was surprised to hear a Christian pastor call themselves a prophet. I thought they were more like shepherds.
My lifelong friend, an elder in his Lutheran Church for decades, has told me there are two Lutheran denominations, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and the Missouri Synod. He says the ELCA is Leftist in outlook and approach and, unsurprisingly, is hemorrhaging members in recent years.
Another HS classmate became an ELCA pastor and cannot muster enough members to even have a church. I've heard a couple of his "sermons" on YouTube and he makes AOC sound like Barry Goldwater.
Some pastors preach from the newspapers, some use the Bible as the source of their message. Our evangelical pastor outlines the issues from a scriptural perspective. It’s no mystery as to who to vote for. Candidates names need not be identified.
oh -got. I rarely click the NYT links because I am not a paying member.
“My lifelong friend, an elder in his Lutheran Church for decades, has told me there are two Lutheran denominations, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and the Missouri Synod.”
There is also the WELS. Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran synod, which broke away from the Missouri Synod.
Yes Inga, now that you mention it, I believe he is a WELS minister. He lives in or near Milwaukee.
If you are preaching about Good and Evil, you can't not mention politics and politicians since it and they have injected themselves into every part of our lives.
I thought it was pretty widely accepted Christian doctrine that there were no new prophets after Christ.
I never understood why any church would teach that there are no more miracles (signs and wonders) or prophets. I always thought the tiny non-denominational church I grew up showed arrogance in saying such things. "Whaddaya mean God doesn't do those things anymore? How do you know?" We would read about the old testament prophets using stars and other natural phenomena to discern God's messages but modern astrology was "satanic."
I've found that the smaller and less formal the group I worship with, the more the act seems closer to what the 1st century churches were doing. Any organization becomes a bureaucracy and churches are not exempt from that tendency. The more added clauses ("our doctrine") the worse the main message gets.
"I never understood why any church would teach that there are no more miracles (signs and wonders) or prophets."
I think the distinction is that prophets receive revelation from God for the public, but that God still can and does give personal revelation today. Also I think most Christians believe God still performs miracles. Canonization in the Catholic Church requires two or more miracles attributed to that person's intercession.
Acts 2, New Testament:
“And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.”
“…societies such as Denmark and England maintain the constitutional recognition of an official state church”
They converted to Islam?
AI overview: “To convert to Islam, one must recite the Shahada, the declaration of faith, with sincerity, stating "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger".”
Raised as a Unitarian. Their magazine had an article in 2008 discussing whether Obama was a Unitarian. His mother seemed to be. I liked a lot about the church but it hit me that they talked about Us and Them and I felt like a Them. So much for their 7 Principles.
Vance, I have taken to telling distraught or angry leftist friends that Trump is now the "best case scenario". Because where did they think their no-limits theology was going to go, and what the reaction might look like then?
Just how does Bishop Bonnie see herself as prophetic? Is there any place where fewer Christian texts are quoted than in an Episcopal sanctuary? (My text for today is from "Heather Has Two Mommies", the Third Chapter, Verse Four...)
Is there a position more redundant than an Episcopal bishopric? How about the social director aboard Charon's ferry?
Caesar (rubbing hands together): "It's mine, all mine."
My lifelong friend, an elder in his Lutheran Church for decades, has told me there are two Lutheran denominations, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and the Missouri Synod. He says the ELCA is Leftist in outlook and approach and, unsurprisingly, is hemorrhaging members in recent years.
I grew up in the LCA (now ELCA) church. I never heard politics being discussed in the past. I have probably attended 1-2 ELCA services per year for the past 50 years and still have not heard politics being discussed.
That said, some of the relatively young pastors I know are very definitely on the left. That seems especially true of female pastors.
Remember that when the Pharisees wanted Christ to oppose the Roman Empire in his capacity as a religious leader, his response was: "Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's." Christian pastors are not entitled to hijack the pulpit to express their limited, often looney, political vision. Isn't there plenty to do in showing a Christian congregation how to pray and live a moral life in a blatantly secular era which is, in any case, rotting away?
PS. Anyhow, I think a member of the congregation can get up and give a little pulpit talk on what interests them every time a pastor decides to give a secular talk on politics.
"Let’s not be wussy about this. When we see sin, then name it. But I think it limits me, if somebody believes that I am tied to a candidate or political party."
Well, that's the Espicopalian point of view. What's the Christian one?
Yeah, lets vote for Harris. She'not religious. She'll bring back Roe v. Wade, and flood the USA with non-christians. And get the USA into war. And she's a super-zionist. You can't get more Christian than that.
Yeah, he’s ELCA. It’s more surprising that the denomination would prohibit such endorsements.
"He had spent the last nine years as pastor of Grace Lutheran, a congregation that had shrunk from 1,500 attendees in the 1950s to 20 or 30 people on most Sundays. The congregation had already been considering closing for good."
Image
Let's be clear- leftist pastors have mastered the art of endorsing political candidates without making it explicit. Trump's DoJ/Treasury just leveled the playing field.
NO LAW.
Churches should tell the government to go fuck itself, but they're too churchy to say that, so I will: Go fuck yourself.
The government settled because it knew it would lose and wants to maintain the THREAT of cancellation of free speech.
Fuck Trump, or any Democrat, who does this.
I don't know about any recent plans from the Southern Baptist Convention, but I do know that Southern Baptist preachers have, my entire life, spoken in strong support of the State of Israel. This is why I have always been confused by Jewish friends hostile towards Christianity.
Regarding the "prophetic" comment: Many ministers use the term prophetic not in the sense of being an actual prophet of God such as we find in the Bible, but in the more general sense of speaking truth into the culture. (Disclosure: I'm a pastor coming up on nearly 40 years in the ministry.)
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