Says Bud Weiser — if that really is your name — in the comments section of "Why Are These Clubs Closing? The Rent Is High, and the Alcohol Isn’t Flowing/The financial decline of some of the city’s most popular clubs has put a spotlight on the realities of nightlife" (NYT).
Agreeing with Bud is Clark: "Yup, New York City is interminably lonely for single people.... People think you're weird just for wanting some conversation... I just spent some time traveling, where it's far more normal to go into a bar by yourself and strike up a conversation - in fact, in Japan, it's rude to go out in a group and not talk to others! Imagine that, a society where social conventions dictate you include, and not exclude. New York city is the loneliest, most exclusionary existence ever...."
That made me think of E.B. White's 1949 essay "Here Is New York":
There are roughly three New Yorks. There is, first, the New York of the man or woman who was born here, who takes the city for granted and accepts its size and its turbulence as natural and inevitable. Second, there is the New York of the commuter — the city that is devoured by locusts each day and spat out each night. Third, there is the New York of the person who was born somewhere else and came to New York in quest of something. Of these three trembling cities the greatest is the last — the city of final destination, the city that is a goal. It is this third city that accounts for New York’s high-strung disposition, its poetical deportment, its dedication to the arts, and its incomparable achievements. Commuters give the city its tidal restlessness; natives give it solidity and continuity; but the settlers give it passion. And whether it is a farmer arriving from Italy to set up a small grocery store in a slum, or a young girl arriving from a small town in Mississippi to escape the indignity of being observed by her neighbors, or a boy arriving from the Corn Belt with a manuscript in his suitcase and a pain in his heart, it makes no difference: each embraces New York with the intense excitement of first love, each absorbs New York with the fresh eyes of an adventurer....
Posts
54 comments:
--- Why are these clubs closing?
The tide has been going out for a while. Wall Street hasn't quite noticed.
"Why are these clubs closing?"
The article makes it clear: Clubs are really an alcohol selling business, and younger people aren't boozing it up like they used to.
I want to feel supportive of nightclubs — for the social and artistic reasons. But if you pull back the veil and see this is a scheme to push alcohol, it's not good.
Is Clark’s last name Kent?
New York is a city where the politicians figuratively f**k you while you’re alive and the thieves literally f**k you after you’re dead.
" When I drink alone,
I like to be by myself.."
Internet. Dating sites. Virus lockdown. Porn. Politics.
Take it away, and back to socializing.
TikTok is a social pathology - Yes, GenZ is not marrying and not having kids. The article describes the addiction that is a critical factor in that decline. Here at GrokBlog the experiment has been done and the results are in. So, I've got it: Let's try to liberate them from the TikTok scourge by introducing them to AI chatbots. Oh, wait, they would need to be inquisitive for that to work? OK, never mind...
I've been amazed at how much vaping I've seen on our trip Down Under.
Increased fear of crime is probably an issue too.
With The Great Gatsby turning 100 this year there was a lot of commentary on Fitzgerald's end of life in the early 1940s (was that linked here, I forget). He was a washed up alcoholic and there were interviews with him talking about the glory of the 1920s. Everything had bottomed out, he included.
The thrills of party and club scenes so often end in death or just plain brokenness for too many. And conversation seeking is like dating, if you're going to clubs to find them, you're really already often lost and stuck in a loneliness you won't admit to, so shine it up in a veneer of boozed camaraderie.
There's better ways to hide one's despair and desperation for connection now.
Youth of America, learn from Japan and go to besuboro games after work to establish a sense of camaraderie.
One thing I seem to have noted in a number of restaurants/establishments my wife and I have been to lately is seeing very few younger couples on a date. We see tables of 2-6 younger women together. Rarely see groups of men or opposite sex apparent dates. Not seeing many men out at all.
Not mentioned here, surprisingly: People don't hang out in bars anymore because they don't have to - they have their smart phone, where they've already self-curated all of the interesting stuff they can possible consume, and not be bothered or distracted by the annoyance of having to understand something unfamiliar - or worse, have to interact with something boring and potentially challenging. People don't socialize anymore because they can fill up their solitude, right up to the brim, without an un-preoccupied minute.
Lazarus: Even if someone waved a magic wand and made all the criminals in Detroit into Boy Scouts and candy-stripers, it's never going to be as cool as NYC. For one thing, Detroit has no public transit to speak of, and cool kids nowadays don't drive. For another, nearly all the housing is single-family bungalows. Cool kids don't like being responsible for their own home maintenance. There's also the issue that, for all the lefty pieties they recite, not many cool kids would actually move to a majority-black city. And of course there's the cold and snow.
I could see Detroit going back to a blue-collar middle-class family-oriented city, though. Again, if you could rapidly reduce crime.
JSM
"There are so many places in the world for the seekers and questers to go. Why pick New York City?"
Was at a really hopping club in Sydney last night. And everywhere we've gone, it's been easy to strike up conversations.
> Clubs are really an alcohol selling business
This is my shocked face:
I realize fewer and fewer people are interested in religion but church is a great place to meet people.
I have spent a few years on and off consulting in Melbourne, in 2 to 3 month slots. I go to the old fashioned bars up and down Bourk street trying to tell everyone I don’t have an accent, I’m an American.
Lots of nice Guinness pubs with interesting folks.
Was out two weeks ago having dinner with two other couples. Noticed two 20-somethings (m/f) take a seat across from each other at another table.
Not once in the 15 minutes before we left did they look up from their phones. Not once.
Why go out when you can sit at home and do the same thing?
I see more young people than old wearing still masks in Boulder. I can see how that itself would dampen the sales of beverages. And then there's the whole COVID vibe which masks continue to propagate, that everyone you talk to is literally a mortal threat, just by breathing, much less talking or singing or kissing. No wonder young people want to bury their heads in iPhones. Oh well, Cheers' loss is TikTok's gain.
We all have the world at our fingertips now, billions of people. What does a big city offer such a civilization in return for it's significant costs? You never did truly interact with more than a couple people at a club, even in the heydays.
I've spent a good portion of my life in bars, from a child with my parents to today, and rarely did the interactions promised ever actually happen. The encounters and relationships really happened other places: in the woods or beach at a bonfire, or a person's home where a keg party was happening, where friends outnumber strangers.
"Clubs are really an alcohol selling business"..
a serious question (that i Really Don't Know the answer to):
should you mix SSRIs and Alcohol?
[okay, i just checked.. and the answer (like i thought) is NO!]
https://mcpress.mayoclinic.org/mental-health/dangers-of-mixing-antidepressants-and-alcohol/
since the OVERWHELMING Majority of young americans are on meds..
and if those meds are NOT to be taken with alcohol..
Does the emptiness of bars surprise ANY ONE?
I was never that guy, but it seems that a young man with courage and a gift for gab could rake in a lot fun with little competition these days.
Aggie at 5:30 has got a good part of it laid out.
No one as provincial as a New Yorker
If you’re an outdoors person, NYC doesn’t have much to offer.
Lots of skyscrapers though. Some cool bridges. Too much garbage on the curb.
Turns out the opium of the masses isn't religion, but technology. Great excuse to be single, nomadic, and easy to manipulate.
So much of city life these days seems like an Orwellian wet dream.
I would think that if kids were raised and educated to be curious, inquisitive, and skeptical, that things would be different.
Also, the cost of alcohol is ridiculous, not just in bars but in stores. Back in the day, way way back, I would drink Irish Coffees in various bars in San Francisco for under a dollar each. That included the Tadich Grill, where the same drink is now 10.00.
Ann said..
"Clubs are really an alcohol selling business"..
Yes they are, and it's what the customers (used to) want. Alcohol is a social lubricant, so you get to meet new people in a setting with free music and maybe some pool tables in the back. And maybe go home with a woman to spend a few hours physical connection.
Those years were worth every moment for me..
You have to sorta decode what EB white is saying. NYC used the Gay mecca before SF. Especially Greenwhich Village. You could go there and hook up with other Gays and no one would bat an eye. White also skips over the fact that in 1948, you had Harlem and the greatest concentration of Jews in the world. Brando, who moved there in 1944, called 40s NYC the "the greatest Jewish city in the world".
That was in the same interview where he mistakenly said "Jews Run Hollywood" and apologized because the Jews, who don't run Hollywood, told him he'd never work in movies again, unless he did.
NYC clubs and nightclubs in the 40s and 50s were training ground for comedians and other talent. If you did well, you could move on to Broadway, TV, or Hollywood.
I discount the alcohol factor because it assumes people wouldn't drink - if it wasn't for the night club. Certainly, being at a club encourages you to drink, but plenty of people would be drinking alone or with friends if they weren't at the club.
Are phones supplanting alcohol as a dopamine trigger?
Its amazing how many cliches are true. "You're only young once, enjoy it while you can" is one of them. Old people give advice - young people ignore it. Thus it will always be.
I want to feel supportive of nightclubs — for the social and artistic reasons. But if you pull back the veil and see this is a scheme to push alcohol, it's not good.
I highly recommend Drunk.
How we sipped, danced, and stumbled our way to civilization.
Alcohol is dangerous for addicts and for people who get intoxicated. But it's wonderful as a social lubricant. It breaks down inhibitions and allows people to relax and have fun. Our society has a love/hate relationship with it, obviously. That book is really cool as a history of humanity's relationship with alcohol.
Jesus turned water into wine for a reason!
"In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria."
-- Benjamin Franklin
"Behold the rain which descends from heaven upon our vineyards; there it enters the roots of the vines, to be changed into wine; a constant proof that God loves us, and loves to see us happy"
also Ben Franklin
You may talk of gin and beer when your thinking isn't clear
and your reasoning is wearing kind of thin.
In vino veritas, but in beer there's only gas.
So shove it up your ass, Gunga Din.
"It is this third city that accounts for New York’s high-strung disposition, its poetical deportment, its dedication to the arts, and its incomparable achievements."
Old Elwyn would write that, wouldn't he, born just far enough from Manhattan to claim oneship with those highfalutin seekers and achievers without lying through his teeth.
“Turns out the opium of the masses isn't religion, but technology.“
Yes, funny to find that religion’s main value was to encourage public gathering and socialization that is now replaced by chatting on the phone with everyone you know at once.
People are still imbibing, but not to or for intoxication. There are other ways to relieve... enjoy life.
Maybe the 20-somethings think 30-something guys like Bud are not as charming as Bud thinks he is.
I’m older now -- I think happiness is really, truly embracing what you have at each stage of your life for what it is, rather than comparing to those other phases of life.
In my teens I was an idiot, but I was idealistic, motivated, driven. I fell in love for the first time.
In my 20s I worked hard. In my early 20s, I had no money but I was in great shape. By my late 20s, I had lots of disposable income but had got used to sitting at desks for long days.
Then I became a parent in my 30s. All the pursuit of my career success and finances suddenly became less important. My role was husband and father, and despite having less money, less time and definitely less fit, that was exactly what I wanted to be.
In my 40s, I became wise. Tasks that I used to have to hustle on with late hours, I could do more quickly. People pay you for your expertise, not your time. I learned the most about myself in that era.
I’m now in my late 50s. I was privileged enough to retire last year. I’m fitter now than I’ve been since my early 20s. I pick and choose the work that I do. I spend my summers at the lake cabin, there is real beauty in slowing down.
Embrace the role you play, the evolution you have and each era is no longer superior to another.
Clubs are not an alcohol selling business. That's just what goes on there.
The purpose of clubs is to get laid. Alcohol lets that happen because most chicks are constantly wearing their good-girl face and alcohol lets their inner whore come out to play.
Alcohol is the lubricant that slips panties down in the night.
A drink at any of these clubs is $22. A domestic beer supplied to the bar for 85 cents costs $9.
Nobody can afford pussy at these prices. So, porn, Tik-Tok and Chik-Fil-A.
I don't live in NYC. But where I do live, and where I do travel, I've noticed that nice bars are opening up again. By 'nice', I mean bars that are tastefully, yet stylishly designed. Where there is music playing, but it's nice, and...you can talk while still catching the vibe. Bars that encourage people to dress up (some even have dress codes), come in, have a drink from a selection of 100+ fine whiskeys, or one of their house drinks, served artistically in a martini glass. You look around and you'd swear you're in another time. But it's now. This is what I'm seeing happen in my neck of the woods.
This ain't no CBGB, but it's something I used to like when I went to cities like Chicago, or San Francisco. And I'm seeing it again- even here in South Florida.
in fact, in Japan, it's rude to go out in a group and not talk to others!
Japan is such a weird example since it's so normalised there for people to go out to places (e.g. fancy restaurants) alone.
She sat on the barstool,
.
She smoked and she drank,
Until the past became clear and the future was blank.
In the past she regained her beauty and pride,
But that was before Jesse died...
Quick, quick, I've just agreed with something kakistocracy said.
"I’m older now -- I think happiness is really, truly embracing what you have at each stage of your life for what it is, rather than comparing to those other phases of life."
Mention it. (When you're at my stage, nothing seems as important as people staying truly attached to life - except people not continually clawing at each other. We've only got the one life and only the people in the near now. )
I agree, kakistocracy.
The internet. The ability to ‘socialize’ on our pocket sized devices has negated the need for any real socializing. If you don’t go out much, you don’t drink much (drinking does tend to be associated with social events).
So, what’s the point of a club? What’s the point of going out? Unfortunately there’s an element to physical interaction which is missing with todays person who has grown up with the internet - they don’t know it’s missing, and has resulted in mental issues.
Perhaps it's just a "Darwinian" cycle. The fact that this group of self-centered self-selected outcasts is not having children says it all. They have "selected" themselves out of the gene pool. Therefore this "phenomenon" will vanish along with its adherents.
Small changes make a difference. Fifteen years ago, most states passed legislation that made it illegal to allow smoking in bars. Even pre-covid, local music was falling off. There are other factors, such as changes in taste, and the fact that people in bars want to talk or watch sports on TV. But people can't smoke and they have to worry about getting popped for a DUI if they have more than two beers. Again, drop off in live music. People stay home. There's an upside to these changes. You don't have to worry about your clothes and hair smelling like smoke, roads are probably safer. But there were unexpected impacts, too. There's no nightlife. And if it's a bar's job to sell you booze--and it is--then anything that adjusts that market will have other changes. Could be good, I guess, but we'll see.
I reject the premise that going out to a club getting drunk getting laid by an essential stranger and then repeating this over and over is "exciting." It is debasing.
As the neighborhood bar or pub dies so does society, where did the idea of AMERICA start, in neighborhood pubs and taverns. Notice I said neighborhood, that sense of belonging that is so missed today.
Mexico City seems to be replacing NYC as party central for young people, including Americans.
Well that's New York City where people have large egos--and are boring. . Meanwhile my hometown newspaper, the San Diego Union Tribune has a story about the revival of the downtown University Club. Wayback in the wayback when I was a young pup lawyer, the University Club was a place where senior partners took me for lunch,. It was a place for downtown business executives. Well with the pandemic downtown got hollowed out. Now the University Club caters to young downtown residents, and it's booming. The story goes on to relate that 30 years ago there were maybe 90 high end city clubs in the country. Today there are 150 and the number is rising.
"... plenty of people would be drinking alone or with friends if they weren't at the club." I agree, to a point. But I also wonder about the effect of pot, including gummies, in that equation.
When I see the word "club" I think of DJs and dance floors! I then think back to my clubbing days - such a blast! Does no one appreciate a good DJ, light show, or dance anymore!
FullMoon with the Tom T quote!!!!
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