The sub-headline bothers me because it equates "due process" with a full-scale trial. The question is what process is due. I don't think Trump is saying that rights need to be bypassed:
“I hope we get cooperation from the courts, because we have thousands of people that are ready to go out and you can’t have a trial for all of these people,” Mr. Trump said. “It wasn’t meant. The system wasn’t meant. And we don’t think there’s anything that says that.”
That can be heard as a component of the argument that courts should find the process that's due is something much faster and simpler than a trial. I would like to hear Trump say that rights are important but, in this case, the due process right should be interpreted narrowly. But at least he's not saying Rights! I don't care rights!
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131 comments:
Cloward Piven - the corrupt left know what they are doing.
The sub-headline bothers me because it equates "due process" with a full-scale trial. The question is what process is due. I don't think Trump is saying that rights need to be bypassed
I think that is exactly what Trump is saying. He obviously believes that illegal aliens are not entitled to any rights, even those written in plain language in the constitution (e.g., birthright citizenship or not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment).
What part of "...cooperation from the courts..." is "bypass[ing] the constitutional demands of due process..."?
The NYT is a fundamentally dishonest organization.
Isn't the question to be answered--"What does due process demand in the case of expulsion of undocumented non-citizens?" [Or to phrase it less charitably, to persons alleged to be illegally in the country].
The case backlog is currently about 4 million, and this includes only those within process. Biden created this mess, well knowing the existing system would be overwhelmed. Furthermore, the legal playbook for illegal immigrant's legal representation is to gum up the process, with endless motions and delays.
The order by the federal district judge in Massachusetts that barred the deportations lays out what he thinks due process requires. Notice to the deportee (and time to prepare a response), a hearing, sign off by a judge, and a chance for appeal. Maybe not a full-blown trial, but any lawyer could draw this out for a long time.
Illegal Aliens are entitled to rights. If you think otherwise, show us where Trump and his supporters are simply executing them. What they are not entitled to is the rights of American citizenship or worse, a citizenship of a lesser class that can be paid less to do work others won’t do.
Other than the right to dispute your identity if agents have mistaken you for someone else, I don’t understand why someone who has broken the law to get into our house has any rights other than a phone call before boarding the bus.
When someone has been repeatedly found by immigration courts to be here illegally and given a deport order, like the "Maryland Man" who has been much discussed, then the process due should be a slimmed down version. Likewise those illegal aliens who fall under the Alien Invasion Act, should it withstand the May 15 SCOTUS hearing, should be expelled expeditiously, just like they were transported into America expeditiously with little process.
Remember, self-deportation preserves the alien's ability to apply for and gain entry LEGALLY. Anyone who wants to avoid expeditious expulsion can certainly appreciate the freedom available in doing things the right way. And a few hundred more high-profile quick flights to El Salvador will convince more than a few to at least contemplate following our laws. I have some sympathy for the fact they were lured here by a president breaking our laws, who encouraged them to break our laws and rewarded them handsomely for doing so. But Trump's plans were no secret. He was elected on them. And Republicans in Congress better get off their asses and start putting his plans into law or they will lose seats in the midterms.
...even those written in plain language in the constitution (e.g., birthright citizenship or not be subject to cruel and unusual punishment).
Lame even for you, Freder. Deportation of non-citizens is "cruel and unusual?"
Illegals allowed in illegally - no due process.
It strikes me as illogical and unpracticable to argue for the abolition of administrative judges as unconstitutional, and then to also argue that Article III courts don't have jurisdiction or bandwidth to handle all challenges of the government's assertions. I agree that due process means process that is due, which can be variable depending on the facts and posture.
As an aside, birthright citizenship is not "in plain language in the [C]onstitution" (capitalize it if you claim to honor it). It has existed since (from memory) 1966.
It appears the argument from the left is that laws cannot be enforced without a process that is an excessive burden to enforcement. Perhaps they think it is more liberal to be that way. The result is what we are seeing play out, where criminals are allowed to kill others and then remain free while awaiting a trial to come years in the future. As that continues, the result becomes a future in which the law is whoever has the initiative to act first and power to carry it out. The future will become a dystopia.
We’re going to need a bigger DOGE.
The Democrats let in millions of illegals without any process, then demand due process to remove them. What a crock.
What say you - compromised John Roberts? gonna F us over or what?
What boatbuilder said 👆🏽
"rights are important" Still not clear how a wrong creates "rights." But if we're talking rights, let's favor the rights of citizens to have the actual law enforced firmly and consistently, to prevent invasion and to be free from illegal aliens in our midst.
As an aside, birthright citizenship is not "in plain language in the [C]onstitution" (capitalize it if you claim to honor it). It has existed since (from memory) 1966.
I beg to differ:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
"Biden created this mess, well knowing the existing system would be overwhelmed."
That demented old fool didn't create or know anything. The auto pen did.
Let’s not clog up the courts. Due process will be needed for those who hired these people.
Deportation of non-citizens is "cruel and unusual?"
Deporting them to prisons in El Salvador certainly is.
The sub-headline bothers me because it equates "due process" with a full-scale trial.
That is the argument of Trump's critics--that every person to be deported is entitled to a trial first. They throw around "due process" without any real understanding of what it means. That might be deliberate as their real purpose is to prevent deportations.
Some thoughts:
1) I think what bothers most people is not summary deportation, but the idea that someone will be condemned to a hellish prison in a foreign country in the process. Being sent back home is one thing. Being imprisoned when you get there, without what Americans would call a fair trial, because the US Government labeled you a gang member and a terrorist to facilitate your deportation, is something else again.
2) Most people seem to think "due process" can solve that problem and make them comfortable with the fate of the deported, whatever it might be.
But most people have no idea what the "due process" they hear so much about consists of exactly in these cases. Does anyone know? Has it even been determined? Or will it become a subject of endless debate designed to run out the clock on Trump.
3) Is there an American legal process that can send someone to a punishment that would be forbidden in the United States as cruel and unusual like CECOT? American courts don't sentence people to foreign prisons...or do they?
4) Any "due process" granted to KAG and people like him will probably result in KAG being given asylum because of the extreme nature of the El Salvadorian prisons.
5) No matter what "due process" is provided to KAG, it will never be enough for the Democrats and the media. The administration will still be accused by them of not giving KAG his "due process."
6) Many are arguing that if Trump waves "due process" then the next administration could wave due process against anybody. IMHO, that ship has clearly already sailed and the left will do whatever they can get away with if they regain power no matter what Trump does. The left claims the right to determine what is due process for illegal aliens and they will claim the right to determine what is "due process" in the future for anybody else they want to use the law against.
7) I don't anticipate Roberts will get in a rush to resolve the question of what Trump must do.
Freder Frederson said..."Deportation of non-citizens is "cruel and unusual?"
Deporting them to prisons in El Salvador certainly is.
Not if they belong there, which is none of our business. Illegals from El Salvador get deported to El Salvador (i.e., they get sent home), what happens next has nothing to do with us. We are not the world's social worker.
There’re maybe a couple million who have deportation orders already - that’s their due process. There are many more who have purposefully not shown up for their deportation hearing, so they’ve self-selected deportation for that failure. Illegals who’ve victimized innocent Americans or other illegals on US soil are also self-selecting deportation. They’ve created their own due process by their own actions, irrefutable evidence required. They’re not citizens.
The answer: Expedite deportations and allow those deported to appeal their deportations remotely from outside the US.
Declare a national emergency, if needed, whether it's COVID or an unprecedented invasion to conduct Virtual Court Proceedings (VCPs).
That instantly flips the advantages of a protracted legal process to the advantage of enforcing US national immigration policy.
“I hope we get cooperation from the courts..." said the fella that keyed a couple dozen Teslas on camera causing over $20k in damage, who then got off with not much more than a lecture from a cooperative judge. Isn't it funny, how judges from one party are able to be flexible when it serves a political end, but the other side is terrified of being perceived as 'unfair'?
If we can't get justice, what purpose do the courts serve? We are approaching the time where the USSC has to say, one way or the other, whether we will protect and defend the US Citizens and their society from their enemies, whether there is a Rule of Law, or whether there is no longer a Republic that will defend its own survival when it comes to the crunch.
The crunch has arrived.
Technically, we don't have a nation. How?
No deportations mean no penalty for violating our border laws.
No penalty means no law.
No border law means no border.
No border means no nation.
But that's a technicality. Otherwise, we're doing great.
The Supremes are giving illegals “squatters rights”.
When you break and enter someone's house, you don't get to stay there till the trial is over. Historically, we haven't had trials before deportations. why would we? You are either here legally or you're not. This is just another leftwing Judge "Made up" rule and they blather about "The constitution" to justify it.
Eisenhower deported large numbers of Mexicans in the early 50s - without trials. It was called operation "wetback".
THis is just the power elite frustrating the will of the american people by using the Judiciary. Its unelected lawyers ruling the country and imposing their will on us. Its not in the constitution. Its not in the law. Its not in accordance with our history.
The whole point of "surging the border" - as Biden(D crook+liar+mob-puppet) demanded... is to cause all this chaos.
Check with the people on Martha's Vineyard. They didn't seem to have any problem getting rid of the illegals that showed up there.
I read somewhere, don't know if it's true:
Bill Clinton: Over 12 million deportations - 0 injunctions.
GW Bush: Over 10 million deportations - 0 injunctions.
Obama: Over 5 million deportations - 0 injunctions.
Trump II: 100k deportations - 30 injunctions.
Almost like, you know, someone is playing games with the system.
trumpers No this is what we think he means, not what he says. WTF How about speaking with specifics instead of guess what I said.
I wonder what would happen if the Trump administration simply used the same legal framework as the Obama administration did when they deported 3 million people without cavil from the press.
Oh hey, Aggie, crossed in the ether.
Freder Frederson said...
As an aside, birthright citizenship is not "in plain language in the [C]onstitution" (capitalize it if you claim to honor it). It has existed since (from memory) 1966.
I beg to differ:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
Make no mistake about what Freder's goals are here.
1. He wants to illegally import as many democrat voters as possible.
2. He wants corporations to have access to millions of cheap workers to exploit.
3. He wants taxpayers to spend billions of dollars on court cases for people who invaded our country.
Freder does not care about the country or the people that live here. He will use any law and twist and principle to destroy the lives of people that live here.
Freder demands that we follow the laws.
But Freder is fine with the Biden Regime ignoring the laws and letting millions of people cross the border illegally.
Freder is an evil dishonest person whos only goal is power.
Aggie said...
I read somewhere, don't know if it's true:
Bill Clinton: Over 12 million deportations - 0 injunctions.
GW Bush: Over 10 million deportations - 0 injunctions.
Obama: Over 5 million deportations - 0 injunctions.
Trump II: 100k deportations - 30 injunctions.
Almost like, you know, someone is playing games with the system.
The Obama number is right. He was called the Deporter in Chief. The other 2 are probably high.
But it still highlights the point that the people fighting for illegal immigration are hypocrites with evil intent.
Second what Tim said at 8:09.
Rogan basically argued Trump must give the illegals "due process" because if he doesn't, the next President may arrest Trump supporters and imprison them without due process.
I think that's a bullshit argument because it ignores the citizenship distinction and it's essentially saying we must give in to Democrats' vague demands because we fear them. If that's the case, we've already lost the country.
During the Obama years, I had a younger friend whose husband had been deported due to an expired visa. He wasn't able to reenter the US for - I can't remember how many years but I'm thinking it was close to 10, as their daughter was a toddler when he was deported and a fully fledged elementary school kid when he was able to return, on a new visa. (The marriage didn't survive the deportation, though she spent lots of time and money on immigration lawyers for her daughter's sake.) That friend, though a big fan of Obama in all other ways, hated his deportation policy... but no one fought it in any meaningful way, it seems.
I don't think the Greder/dem game is necessarily to import more dem voters. It's to create an economic/social crisis that can be exploited to impose increasingly socialist measures on America.
Caroline gives but one example of why the "due process" argument for deportations is absurd. Homeless guy breaks into your home while you are on vacation. He eats your food, sets up quarters in your attic or a tent in your yard. You come home and call the cops. Cops arrive but say the Supreme Court says he can't be removed from your property until he has a due process hearing, a few weeks, months, or years from now. Besides, it's Saturday. And he might get killed by a gang on Skid Row.
Absurd? Of course. But virtually identical to the deportation issue...illegal entry, no "right" to stay there, and no right to remain for extended due process assertions before being removed. Removal first, then you can petition to be readmitted. That's your due process option of you entered illegally.
This "due process" ploy is the left once again trying to use the fundamental decency of most Americans against them.
A hard line on illegal immigration is one of the Trump policies that I generally support. The open border was a problem for too long and it was infuriating that the Democrats did nothing to stop it and even encouraged it.
But, the deportations seem cruel. Our own government treated illegal entry as no big deal, so the immigrants could be forgiven for thinking it was a fairly minor infraction - like a speeding ticket.
These people may not be citizens, but they are still our neighbors now. With the exception of some actual criminals, it would be virtuous and generous to let them stay.
"It was called operation "wetback"
Wetbackback would have been better.
"Deporting them to prisons in El Salvador certainly is."
Deporting someone to his home country is not cruel or unusual. What that country's legal system does with one of its citizens after that is not this country's business. The United States is not responsible for managing everything that happens in the world.
I don't see why a non-citizen's Due Process rights are greater his having illegally entered the country than if he merely presented himself at a border crossing and was denied entry. In the latter case, there would be no individual hearing on his claim to be let in. Why does mere setting foot on U.S. territory entitle him to a hearing before a judge and appeal rights, as well as the right to remain in the country while those processes play out? Is the Constitution really intended to affirmatively incentivize criminal conduct?
So, basically Trump was trying to do this better, with more legal backing, than Obama - was trying to use a stronger set of criteria for deportation than "entered the US illegally" as was Obama's primary criterion... and Trump is the fascist.
According to Obama, "the process that is due" was "illegal entry noted, LIFO accounting." Why does there need to be more? Why is this even a conversation?
(Ans.: Trump made it one, by trying to rid the country of the most dangerous and disruptive illegal aliens first instead of just going with that LIFO accounting. It's Trump's fault. It's always Trump's fault.)
I agree with you,
@Steven
You get to call yourself virtuous at someone else's expense.
Aggie there were a handful of injunctions sought for Obama's deportations, fewer for his predecessors. Less than a dozen over 8 years for Obama, so no it's not really comparable to Trump racking up over 30 in a month or two.
Let's do it like Obama did:
1. Get a friendly judge to provide deportation orders for any illegal alien who has overstayed their visa, missed an immigration hearing, been found guilty of a crime or has crossed the border more than once.
2. Treat all those like traffic courts treat an FTA: same as a no plead.
3. The number of student visa overstays alone would overwhelm the lawfare capabilities of the Progressives in short order. While those are being adjudicated just sweep all the other ones out of the country.
4. Due process preserved. Worst of the worst will still be ejected first.
How many times has the Democrat El Salvadorian fanboy sat before an American judge?
I wonder what Fredo and his Marxist friends think is the appropriate number of trials for illegal aliens before they can say "due process' was established.
But, the deportations seem cruel. Our own government treated illegal entry as no big deal, so the immigrants could be forgiven for thinking it was a fairly minor infraction - like a speeding ticket.
They received "fair warning" when Trump was campaigning on exactly this issue, which you admit supporting. Even NOW they have the option of scooting back over the border and applying the correct way, preserving their potential to reenter.
If you don't find those arguments persuasive consider this:
A cop stops you for speeding but lets you off with a warning, arguably bending the law. That does not shield you from a ticket when you continue speeding. The next cop won't be persuaded by your argument that he should give you another warning. As a driver it is YOUR responsibility to follow the law. Ditto crossing our border.
Dogma and Pony Show said...
I don't think the Greder/dem game is necessarily to import more dem voters. It's to create an economic/social crisis that can be exploited to impose increasingly socialist measures on America.
I have read that the census counts (or attempts to count) everyone residing in a state, regardless of citizenship status in its population numbers. If true, I wouldn't rule out "new congressional seats in blue or blueish states" as another motivation; it's a shorter and more legal game than trying to ram through citizenship for millions of illegal entrants so they can vote.
I'm trying to give the Left the benefit of the doubt, trying to believe that they really do think they must work out their compassionate feelings for the downtrodden of the entire world by throwing open the gates. And I do think that really is the motivation, for some ordinary people of the Left. But the ones in positions of power? Color me dubious.
"...it would be virtuous and generous to let them stay."
Really? How many do you have in your neighborhood? Do you realize how much these illegal aliens are costing us?
@Jamie, yes representation is based on total population, not voters. I think the strategy has shifted since legal Hispanics are voting more GOP to putting extra people in areas that vote reliably Democrat.
My understanding is that those Obama and Clinton deportation numbers also include 'turnaways' and people caught in the act of crossing so they illustrated just how much the Biden junta did nothing to impede and more objectively facilitated illegal entry.
"Do you realize how much these illegal aliens are costing us?"
About $50 billion annually out of a federal budget of $7 trillion. I have quite a few in my neighborhood; they're nice folks and hard working, though they work low skill jobs that don't pay very well.
"If an alien comes to dwell in your land, and settles down among you, do not treat him disdainfully; welcome him as if he were native born and do him kindness as if he were one of yourselves, remembering that you were aliens once, in the land of Egypt; the Lord your God Remembers."
One should not worry too much about the cost of doing what is right.
Pushing citizens to the back of the bus may be ethical but is immoral. Immigration reform in lieu of emigration reform for labor and democratic arbitrage is example of American Civil Liberties Unburdened favored by Special Peculiar Liberal Corporations and Democratic Diversity (e.g. racism) that can no longer be hidden in a back... black hole... whore h/t NAACP. That and compensation for selective-child doctrine under the Pro-Choice religion in progressive sects wielded with liberal license is transhumane.
“We can’t give everyone a trial”
Can we give everyone a trophy trial… not made in China.
The Dems purposely created this crisis and they paid themselves handsomely out of the national purse to do it. Now they have the nerve to pose as generous and virtuous and to try to shame and vilify everybody who wants to undo it.
If you haven’t figured out the strategy is to live in the lawless region between injunctions and appeals, between due process and impracticality, between accepted and novel definitions of words you are not a credible witness to current events…and sure you can play four corners offense until Trump is gone, but what happens when you don’t win the next one either? This forever?
Steven wrote:
"A hard line on illegal immigration is one of the Trump policies that I generally support. The open border was a problem for too long and it was infuriating that the Democrats did nothing to stop it and even encouraged it."
"With the exception of some actual criminals, it would be virtuous and generous to let them stay."
Those paragraphs make no sense at all, Steven. What polices, precisely, do you claim are "hardline on illegal immigration" that rewards every single illegal migrant, minus "some actual criminals", with full legal residency. This just sounds like, "We promise to support strict border enforcement in the future if you will legalize all the people we let in with zero border control."
In short, your comment sounds likes a con to me, Steven- I don't believe you when you write that very first sentence.
it would be virtuous and generous to let them stay
I know what you mean, Steven - I would love to be able to provide an opportunity to pursue the American dream to everyone who wants it, anywhere, and it would be wonderful if we could provide it at least for those who have already taken such risks and paid such a price to get here. I'm certain that the great majority of illegal entrants, even the surge under Biden, are people who really do just want a chance to live here, work, and grow prosperous.
But someone always pays. And the virtue and generosity you - and I! - would like to be able to claim for America costs Americans. Even Jesus debated with the Syrophoenician woman over this - Jesus holding that the dogs under the table - the outsiders - shouldn't get the food intended for the Master's children. And the woman acknowledged that she shouldn't take bread from the Master's children's mouths, but even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table.
Jesus, of course, could have healed her daughter without the debate. But I believe he was giving us a model for our charity. We can't help everyone, and our first obligation is to our own, not reflexively to the most desperate. But as a generous nation, we do afford the benefit of residency to a limited number of the desperate. That's what I think we need to get back to.
"Steven" has a script.
It's as if Trump supporters think the Democrats will just sit back, relax and enjoy the rogering. Cry all you want, but this is the fight you started. Nothing worth accomplishing is easier than pie or a cake walk.
About $50 billion annually out of a federal budget of $7 trillion.
Oh no. Way off. DOGE uncovered two different NGOs that EACH received $500-million (out of hundreds of NGOs "helping" immigrants) and the Office of Refugee Resettlement alone got $7.3B last year. Adding up all the USAID disbursements to assist "refugees" here and it quickly gets into the hundreds of billions.
The House estimates that housing costs alone are $150B last year. NYC got $20B for putting illegals up in hotels.
We don’t have the time, and as a country — thanks to Joe Biden — we don’t have enough money.
The Constitution is not meant to be a suicide pact.
I am going to continue to beat the drum that the President should, by Executive Order, suspend the writ of habeas corpus as to members of MS-13 and TdA for purposes of the Alien Enemies Act.
The Constitution allows it as we have been invaded and the public safety is in jeopardy.
Lincoln did it in a crisis. We have a crisis now. Trump can do it. And he will. Furthermore, he will give lawyer Dave Begley full credit.
I don't have much more to say about this topic, but since a few people questioned the $50 billion number I wanted to share the source:
https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer
Below is my email to the President.
Dear Mr. President:
I strongly urge you to suspend the writ of habeas corpus as to members of MS-13 and TdA for purposes of the Alien Enemies Act.
The Constitution allows you to do this when the country has been invaded and the public safety is in jeopardy. Both conditions are satisfied.
President Lincoln did the same thing during the Civil War. If Lincoln did it, Trump can do it.
All the Best,
Dave Begley
Nebraska attorney
T:
Like so many words in the Constitution, the word invasion is not defined.
I liked your post so much, I'm sending it to the President.
Steven said...
"Do you realize how much these illegal aliens are costing us?"
About $50 billion annually out of a federal budget of $7 trillion.
You throw out "$50 billion" so confidently. No one has ever really examined the knock-on effect of state spending on Medicaid, SSI, on and on. Next, a large proportion of illegals don't bother with auto insurance, and they come from places where the driving customs are not suitable for US roads. This causes first order damages when they cause accidents, then second order in increased insurance premiums. Then there is the simple pressure of housing an influx of 3-5 million per year under Biden. I'm sure there are many other costs I haven't even considered, such as ED use instead of ambulatory clinics.
Add it all up, and you'll get to a number that maybe even leftist Democrats think is too high.
"I don't think Trump is saying that rights need to be bypassed ....".
There are 9 billion people on Earth. Does every one of them have a "right" to a judge, a courtroom, twelve jurors and a couple dozen lawyers? It kind of seems like the judges and lawyers think so.
And when the President calls me, I plan to tell him about my Knox County victory over Big Wind in federal court and how I saved taxpayers at least $390m. Also won in Colfax County yesterday before the County Board.
Steven said...
I don't have much more to say about this topic, but since a few people questioned the $50 billion number I wanted to share the source:
https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer
4/23/25, 9:40 AM
I'm sure you don't have much more to say, considering this is a 2013 study casting dollars in 2010 terms. I'm sure you realize how little this has to do with current spending. Straight inflation alone takes it from $55 to $90 billion. Add in tens of millions of additional illegals during that time. Add in the knock-on effects I list.
Starting to get your attention?
Let's be clear what this is. Biden and the open border democrats allowed millions of people into our country illegally. On purpose with the express desire to get them ultimately ( and in many cases immediately ) to either vote democrat or flood the democrat enclaves with people that would be counted in redistricting.
That is it, that is why they did it, that is what they did.
Now they want to keep those illegal votes for as long as possible. That is it. If these were republican voters, then the democrats would not be saying a thing about it.
We know that the eGOP didn't say anything about it either, because they wanted the cheap labor to keep screwing over the lower class and enriching themselves and their friends.
But those days HAVE to be over. We have to deport these people AND not count them for redistricting.
we have seen what due process is at the hands of judges contreras or boasberg, et al, an oxymoron,
"A special interest alien (SIA) is a non-U.S. person whose travel patterns suggest they may pose a national security risk to the United States. This designation is used to identify individuals who may require heightened scrutiny due to potential links to terrorism or other nefarious activities." -dhs.gov
In the last 4 years, 275,000 SIAs were arrested and released into the US. In prior years about 3000 SIA's per year were encountered by DHS and they were routinely denied entry.
We're talking about individuals from countries like the PRC, North Korea, the Middle East, potentially very dangerous people. The largest the US Marine Corp has ever been was 202,000.
The cost of allowing the illegal alien invasion of our country has not yet begun to be paid.
Assuming 10 million illegal aliens, 600 immigration judges sitting 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year, doing 4 cases a day, would take 16 years, assuming they don't do other cases, assume no appeals. What do you do with them awaiting their day in court? Keep them in jail? Allow them to work? It's not a serious proposal.
If they're not in the US lawfully, as citizens, or visitors with visas/green cards, why are they entitled to a day in court, as due process? If they can't show proof of right to be in the US, isn't that enough? Due process is "show me your papers. If you can't then you're here illegally, and off you go."
El Salvador isn't likely to take its gang members back if they are to be running wild in the streets. If El Salvadoran prisons really are cruel and unusual by some global standard, I suppose we could give that country the funds to upgrade its facilities. We probably still have some USAID officials with time on their hands.
+
The statistics for deportations under Obama are questionable. I heard that many of them were turnaways at the border, not people deported from inside the country. I don't know how true that is, but it wouldn't be the first time Democrats cooked the books.
+
Maybe it's today's version of patriotism, but I wish we wouldn't throw phrases like "the American Dream" or "American exceptionalism" around so casually. Who we are, what we have, where we're going are all harder questions to answer than we're used to answering.
Howard said...
It's as if Trump supporters think the Democrats will just sit back, relax and enjoy the rogering. Cry all you want, but this is the fight you started. Nothing worth accomplishing is easier than pie or a cake walk.
4/23/25, 9:30 AM
WE didn't start this...Joe Biden did when he invited and opened up the border to millions of invaders, and the left gave them benefits that even citizens aren't lucky enough to receive.
It's hard to put the genie back in the bottle after the lawlessness of the Biden administration. WE didn't get due process when he let them invade, and made US support his chaos.
Proposed edit to NYT style book:
Wrong: "Trump claims without evidence ..."
Right: "Trump claims without exaggeration ..."
The sub-headline bothers me because it equates "due process" with a full-scale trial. The question is what process is due.
I find this to be disingenuous. Surely Althouse knows damned well that Democrats mean just that — a full blown, individual trial.
I don't think Trump is saying that rights need to be bypassed
And what rights do we owe to someone in this country illegally?
All of the deportation stuff is just short term thinking. On this issue the fact is, the constitution is a suicide pact. Deportation needs to be done, but the next democratic admin will reverse the border controls and let a new flood in.
I would propose that the only hope is to increase votes in Congress to allow banning illegals from getting jobs, ssns, welfare to the degree possible, other benefits like college scholarships, and voting rights. Try to make the census exclude non citizens for representation purposes.
The country is split to the degree that once a law does get through it can’t be repealed, so the answer is to pass laws that specifically prevent these things, and of course maintain control of scotus and appoint more federal judges.
Well that was easy, but is a seemingly impossible stretch. Self deportation is the most promising by removing the benefits of being here illegally. If we remove the incentives and benefits of being an illegal the problem is solved, they will leave.
Making employers check status before hiring would do this alone, for 80 percent of them.
It is encouraging that ngos are no longer, we hope, being paid to expand illegal immigration by the government.
It’s ridiculous the Supreme Court ever extended habeas to illegals subject to deportation.
That’s a luxury view
To be fair, where the deportation of Illegals is concerned, the Democrats believe that due process means a full trial and a couple of decades worth of appeals.
When someone has been repeatedly found by immigration courts to be here illegally and given a deport order, like the "Maryland Man" who has been much discussed, then the process due should be a slimmed down version.
Actually, the deportation hearing that resulted in the deportation order is the due process, and KAG has received it (twice in fact - the deportation order was upheld by a second judge). Curiously, KAG did not bring up any fears of violence or seek asylum until after the deportation order was entered - why would that be? Also curiously, the fear of KAG was not that he would be subject to persecution by the government of El Salvador, but that he would be harmed by a gang that just happens to be the main El Salvadoran rival to MS-13. Finally, he entered the country in 2012, but did not make his asylum request until 2019, well beyond the requirement to do so within one year of entering the country.
Trump has often viewed the courts as a hurdle or hinderance to what he wants to achieve. This has been the case with millionaires / billionaires for over a century. Now, as president, he views any legal issues and laws in the same way. And since he has the luxury of being both very wealthy and now a president he pushes back against the law and even ignores it when convenient thus challenging the courts to stop him. Personally I see a problem with that but his supporters love it - at least when he does it. If a left leaning president did the same many Republicans would be as upset as Democrats are now. If we truly want to curb the rights of undocumented people then Congress should do that.
"It strikes me as illogical and unpracticable to argue for the abolition of administrative judges as unconstitutional, and then to also argue that Article III courts don't have jurisdiction or bandwidth to handle all challenges of the government's assertions." Absolutely not. The argument for why administrative judges are constitutional is precisely because they are doing work that could be handled directly and without judges. It's a way to give individuals more process than is constitutionally required.
If these were republican voters, then the democrats would not be saying a thing about it.
If these were Republican voters, there would have been a 100 foot high concrete wall on our southern border for many decades, with machine gun towers and mine fields.
Illegal aliens, and that includes every single person the Biden Admin "paroled" into the country, do not have a right to stay in America. So the only process that's "due" is the chance to show that you're not an illegal.
If it bothers you that you have to have proof that you're a US citizen, blame the Biden & Obama Admins for letting in so many illegals, and blame anyone and everyone who voted for either of those Administrations.
But no, you don't get to blame the people who are finally trying to enforce the law
"It strikes me as illogical and unpracticable to argue for the abolition of administrative judges as unconstitutional, and then to also argue that Article III courts don't have jurisdiction or bandwidth to handle all challenges of the government's assertions."
Some questions are not judicable. See Roberts and the leftists refusing to protect Christians from Newsom's claims of "emergency powers" during Covid in South Bay.
See every single court refusing to take cases about Dems vote fraud / election cheating in 2020.
Booting out illegals and Trump exercising his emergency powers under the AEA are similarly non judicable. If that bothers you, but you weren't fighting the courts that ruled the Dems way in 2020, you can kindly fuck off.
Because no legitimate argument can be made that illegals have more rights than actual America citizens, and in 2020 and 2021 we actual American citizens were often treated as WE had no right to judicial protection from the Dems
ICE agents are storming around the country, armed and wearing masks and armor, smashing car windows and otherwise disobeying laws requiring arrest warrants in order to collect supposed dark-skinned illegal immigrants for shipment to places like the Salvadoran gulag.
If Trump cannot obey the rule of law, complete with court hearings, he also is a lawbreaker. Our new-fangled Republicans cannot seem to stay on the same page. President Ronald Reagan signed The Immigration Reform and Control Act into law on November 6, 1986 which legalized most undocumented immigrants who had arrived in the country prior to January 1, 1984.
How quickly we forget Dutch and "the Good Ol' Days" when Republican farmers needed workers.
Delay, delay, delay... until the mid-terms... or 2028.
DNC hasn't put out the bumper sticker, yet.
But it's what they have as they pray to the great nothingness every night for something horrible to befall America. Proof positive that Orange Man BAD!
It is not a push to call an evidentiary hearing with a judicial decision afterwards a trial. The federal judiciary cannot be trusted to define a due process standard for deportation. The effete congressional Republicans need to step up.
Biden administration ignores all sorts of laws for four full years, bringing all those millions of migrants into the US. Trump administration is then hogtied with demands it not only follow the law but extend further due process procedures to those already legally adjudicated as deportable. Got it. This is the same complaint used by the Hamas terrorists, who kill Israeli civilians purposefully and force their own fellow Gazans to be human shields, then
demand the Israelis not attack them and also, hey, give Hamas back all they have lost in the ensuing war they started or the hostages won't be released. To hell with that argument, to hell with them. On both counts. Unconditional surrender for Hamas, and get a law passed to allow fast mass deportations of those who came here under Biden illegally or are violating their visas. If a different law is required, get it done, and quit the tomfoolery of pretending the Dems are doing anything for the good of the country.
Close to 100 days into his second term, nobody — perhaps not even his closest advisers — is any wiser on whether to take Trump’s words at face value...
Trump himself does not know what he will say or do next.
gadfly said...
ICE agents are storming around the country, armed and wearing masks and armor, smashing car windows and otherwise disobeying laws requiring arrest warrants in order to collect supposed dark-skinned illegal immigrants for shipment to places like the Salvadoran gulag.
They have warrants called deportation orders. Just like when Merrick Garland put out warrants to arrest J6 protestors using SWAT or SWAT arrest of people seen protesting outside abortion clinics. You never complained.
In fact, I’ve never seen you complain about fake SWATing calls on various conservative personalities around the country that happen every month. Let us know when you actually care. Until then, expect to get what you give.
SCOTUS just ruled that 60 days actually means 62 days if a weekend is encountered.
The illegal at the heart of that case has been in the legal system for 13 years.
So Trump is correct. The courts want a continual backlog so they have endless work to do and can delay deportation for say, 13 years, because of bullshit.
Peachy said...
Illegals allowed in illegally - no due process.
************
That argument should be retired. The 14th Amendment says... "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; " {this applies to the federal government as well, of course)
Persons are not being "deprived" of anything when they enter this country illegally. Actually, it's the Dems who want to convey rights upon them after letting them in.
ICE agents are storming around the country, armed and wearing masks and armor, smashing car windows and otherwise disobeying laws requiring arrest warrants in order to collect supposed dark-skinned illegal immigrants for shipment to places like the Salvadoran gulag.
Elián González, gone and very definitely forgotten.
Begley's got it right: if the courts continue to tie Trump up I suspect he will suspend the writ and let the Supremes try to stop him. I think THAT will provoke a constituional crisis the court cannot win, either legally or in the court of public opinion; the vast majority of Americans want these illegals OUT.
Ex parte Milligan be damned , as we don't need no stiinkin' military tribunals to try anyone.
Cameron: Okay Trump, can we just let it go, please?
Sloane: Trump, please. You've gone to far. We're going to get busted.
Trump: A: You can never go too far to Make America Great. B: If I'm gonna get busted, it is *not* gonna be by a district court judge like *that*.
Expelling illegal aliens expeditiously doesn't deprive them of any rights under the 14th Amendment. They are being removed because they DON'T have the RIGHT to be here. The only catch is aliens who have filed an asylum claim.
Once the claim is (or in many cases has already been) denied they are ordered out anyway and failure to comply is (bang!) another crime for which they can be ejected as a criminal illegal alien.
Stephen, check the date on your data. It's stale.
https://www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/habeas-corpses-monday-april-21-2025
Steven said…
…
These people may not be citizens, but they are still our neighbors now. With the exception of some actual criminals, it would be virtuous and generous to let them stay.
We all know that if these people were voting for Republicans and they were taking jobs away from Steven’s caste Steven would want them out.
The democrats need voters because Americans no longer support them and their crony corporate sponsors want slaves to exploit.
The democrat party was founded on slavery and nothing has changed since then.
The democrats are willing to do anything they can to hold on to the people they want to exploit for cheap labor and illegal votes.
effinayright said...
Begley's got it right: if the courts continue to tie Trump up I suspect he will suspend the writ and let the Supremes try to stop him. I think THAT will provoke a constituional crisis the court cannot win, either legally or in the court of public opinion; the vast majority of Americans want these illegals OUT.
4/23/25, 1:18 PM
Mmhmm. I wouldn't have started the year thinking that President Trump was preparing a bank shot against Marbury vs. Madison, but that is where this is all going. If John Roberts had any brains, he'd say that the executive agencies have a right to determine which non-citizen immigrants can stay in the country. Instead he might see SCOTUS decisively lose its power of final settlement.
gadfly said...
ICE agents are storming around the country, armed and wearing masks and armor, smashing car windows
If the cops show up to arrest you and you refuse to get out of your car, they're going to smash your windows and drag you out.
They would do that to me, so they damn well should do that to illegals.
No "wait for my lawyer to arrive" is not going to cut it.
and otherwise disobeying laws requiring arrest warrants in order to collect supposed dark-skinned illegal immigrants
Ah, because doing it to light skinned Americans is perfectly fine, it's only when you've got "Democrat privilege" that it's wrong.
They have deportation orders, that makes it perfectly legal.
Got it, asshole.
for shipment to places like the Salvadoran gulag.
If you're in America illegally, either you self deport, or we send you to the Salvadoran gulag. That sounds like the proper way to do things.
If Trump cannot obey the rule of law, complete with court hearings, he also is a lawbreaker.
1: The rule of law does not require court hearings for deporting illegals
2: The ones violating the rule of law are the Democrat "judges" taking cases where they have no jurisdiction
So long as you're good with that, I have no problem with anything Trump does to illegals
Give them the same due process they received upon arrival.
"How quickly we forget Dutch and "the Good Ol' Days" when Republican farmers needed workers."
Reagan, huh?
Here is what Reagan said about illegal immigration in his farewell address:
"We’ve been a nation that’s been able to control its borders, and we must remain that way. Immigration must be an orderly process, or we cease to be a nation of laws."
He also said this:
"The Statue of Liberty has always stood for an America that is open to the poor, the oppressed, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. But it also stands for an America that has the right to control its borders and to ensure that immigration is legal and orderly."
Nothing about what Fuck Joe Biden and the Democrats have done regarding immigration has been legal and orderly. Suggesting that what's been going on would have been supported by Reagan is disingenuous. You're a lying sack of shit for trying.
That might be deliberate as their real purpose is to prevent deportations.
Might? There is no 'might' about it. That's exactly what they want.
Look no further than Freder. As has been pointed out to him repeatedly, his precious 'Maryland Man' has already received TWO hearings. And Freder wants more.
It's not about due process. It never was. And anybody who hides behind that is full of shit.
ICE agents are storming around the country, armed and wearing masks and armor, smashing car windows and otherwise disobeying laws
Interesting. So now it is wrong to mask up, storm around the country and break stuff? I am sure this is consistent with what you said about ANTIFA, right?
With the exception of some actual criminals, it would be virtuous and generous to let them stay.
Be virtuous and generous on your own, damn dime. Not mine.
Jamie,
How in the world did "LIFO accounting" get into a discussion about deporting illegal immigrants? What does an inventory management method have to do with this, unless maybe the Democrats see their illegal entrance as voter "inventory" or something?
And Bob Boyd, neither LIFO nor your method are the ideal approach here. Instead, what we want is ASAP deportations, regardless of how long the various illegal entrants have been here.
One should not worry too much about the cost of doing what is right.
Embracing and rewarding illegal immigration is NOT doing what is right. If you love them so much, encourage them to go through the process legally.
Glad I don't live in your neighborhood. You've got a weird sense of priorities.
what we want is ASAP deportations, regardless of how long the various illegal entrants have been here.
Isn't that exactly what I said?
How in the world did "LIFO accounting" get into a discussion about deporting illegal immigrants?
I'm not an accountant - but I know that acronym means "last in, first out," right? That seemed to be more or less the way Obama accomplished his large number of deportations - by focusing (though not exclusively) on recent arrivals. He also deported holders of expired visas and so forth. I suppose, without evidence, that the thinking was that new arrivals would have less support here, fewer resources to help them challenge their deportation.
Althouse wrote:
"The argument for why administrative judges are constitutional is precisely because they are doing work that could be handled directly and without judges."
As far as I can tell the losing party in an ALJ decision can appeal for judicial review by an Article III judge. That's due process.
There are exceptions depending on the law in question. If this is the case with deportation orders then Trump is right.
https://patriots.win/p/19AxLLTAlU
As ever, the patriots remind us that US citizens had far fewer protections than the previous illegals, so the Trump base would be just fine with the gadflies and freders being subjected to "equal" treatment under the law for a few years.
https://x.com/CitizenFreePres/status/1915189778645213381
This is what happens when law abiding citizens get tired of criminals getting "rights" to extended "due process".
As a last resort, register the illegals as Republicans. Just tell them that the Democrats want to cut off their junk and put them in dresses. Easy peasy.
Has anyone done the math on giving all illegal aliens “due process”? At a modest cost of, say $10,000 per full set of hearings, the 12,000,000 sneakers of the Biden area are worth $120,000,000,000. Then there is the processing time. If we assume the 700 judges can process 10,000 per day total, that’s 1200 days to conduct one set of hearings but due process! Due process! Everyone gets at least two hearings. So 2,400 days of hearings total. So about ten years of hearings to be done at current volume. And that all assumes everyone shows up and there is no asylum claim. So, sure! The problem’s not getting fucking solved. Start prioritizing open borders for countries full of conservative whities. Locate them in blue districts. That will get everyone’s attention.
We all know that if these people were voting for Republicans and they were taking jobs away from Steven’s caste Steven would want them out.
And he’d want them out RIGHT NOW. But the more the Democrats back MS-13 and Tren de Aragua gangs that prey upon on working class and middle class Hispanics, the more the Hispanic vote will shift to Republicans. Oops.
We want illegal aliens to be taking up more of our resources that would be better spent on actually getting American citizens who may be struggling a better leg up?
What would the result of a trial be? Who is going to spend any resources for the so-called defendant that proves they are a us citizen? How would the state prove they are not a us citizen?
So... "what process is due?"
What process is due someone who breaks into my home at night? What process is due if they also threaten my family?
I don't believe **** illegal **** immigrants have any process due besides humane deportation.
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