Writes Jaron Lanier, in "Your A.I. Lover Will Change You/A future where many humans are in love with bots may not be far off. Should we regard them as training grounds for healthy relationships or as nihilistic traps?" (The New Yorker).
I tried the Grok app that let's you talk and be talked back to. You're forced to pick a voice — either male or female. It's binary. I picked male — not because I'm a heterosexual female, but because the female voice I was offered was perky and energized and the male voice was calm. It wasn't egging me on to feel that this is so much fun. But then I only used it for less than a minute, because it felt slow. A waste of time. Reading is much faster. Talking might work better if I succumbed to the illusion that a real person was on the line. I'd have to choose to go slightly mad to feel like that. But don't people make that kind of choice all the time — even in those seemingly "healthy relationships" with real human beings.
59 comments:
Will AI love heal you or cripple you? Will AI love be able to declare the hardest reality to you, or will it hide it from you because you don't want to hear it?
I'm looking for VC funds for my new startup: a company that sells the service of addiction intervention bots.
The idea of computer consciousness is fascinating but, in my opinion, fundamentally unattainable for several reasons. First, consciousness isn’t just about processing power or complex algorithms—it’s deeply tied to subjective experience, emotions, and the biological processes of living organisms. Computers operate on binary logic and predefined rules, while human consciousness arises from the intricate interplay of neurons, chemicals, and sensory experiences shaped by evolution.
Second, consciousness involves self-awareness and the ability to reflect on one's existence, which requires more than data processing. A computer might simulate responses that mimic awareness, but simulation isn’t the same as genuine experience. For instance, a machine can calculate sadness based on inputs, but it doesn’t feel sadness—it has no qualia, no inner world.
Lastly, there’s the philosophical argument: consciousness may be inherently tied to biology. No matter how advanced AI becomes, it lacks the evolutionary drives, survival instincts, and embodied experiences that shape our minds. Until we fully understand what consciousness even is , replicating it artificially seems like a bridge too far.
But before we get to the intervention, please listen to a short message from our sponsor.
People will default to the male voice on Grok because of HAL 9000.
I'm sorry Dave....
The wildly-overpriced market for women is set to crash, precipitously.
You're going to have to bring something to the table other than forced alimony, indentured servitude, maintenance payments, exorbitant child support payments that YOU spend on yourself.
Weigh that against a Japanese bot that looks like Angelina Jolie, but can't sue you for divorce because they're on to Mr. Next. One that never ages, does whatever you want sexually, and you can turn it off and back on again when she gets bitchy.
Ladies, you are going to have to learn a LOT of new skills.
I for one welcome our new AI masters.
Don't date robots!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of504LSTQqY
Just as videos and movies and streaming series are more interesting than real life, I suspect that at some point AI bots will be more interesting and more emotionally satisfying than real people. Not surprising (at least to me), they will spend more time with the bot than real people, and in fact will become uncomfortable having to interact with real people.
It won't be nihilism or anything planned by the people who now prefer that. It will just be like how it is easier to eat a diet that keeps you overweight than to change things to "take weight off and keep it off".
Using an AI to read a book to you, is something i look forward to. There are huge numbers of books that are not being sold as audibooks. Who knows why. Probably the people who own Audible and the other companies are doing their usual gatekeeping and censoring. I've become a Robert stone fan, and 3-4 of novels are on audiobook. Why? I dunno. These must have been recorded when they came out in the 80s and 90s. Some exec just decided he didn't like them. Or they didn't want too many audiobooks by a straight white male.
So it'd be great if you could get a AI to read the text to you. Assuming it was able to accurately portray emotion.
Consciousness and love have experiencing in common. If you learn from experiencing, then AI doesn't work there.
My test picks that up :
What is it that bursts out above? The text does not say but somebody who is patient with literary texts will know (the modern commenter community has none of these)
"We know, captives of an absolute formula that, of course, there is nothing but what is. However, incontinentiy to put aside, under a pretext, the lure, would point up our inconsequence, denying the pleasure that we wish to take: for that beyond is its agent, and its motor might I say were I not loath to operate, in public, the impious dismantling of the fiction and consequently of the literary mechanism, so as to display the principal part or nothing. But, I venerate how, by some flimflam, we project, toward a height both forbidden and thunderous! the conscious lacks in us of what, above, bursts out." (Mallarme, trans. Barbara Johnson)
What bursts out above is a literary effect of something bursting out above that the text produces. AI can't follow that because it doesn't experience literary effects. What bursts out, not mentioned in the text anywhere, is a literary effect produced by the literary mechanism. A mechanism that, curiously, defeats AI.
As long as they're configurable enough to permit a Tulsi Gabbard model, I'm OK with this. No Tulsi = Not OK with it.
Won't it be like video games which seem to have endless possibilities at first but which become predictable and boring to a human consciousness? But - now this just occurs to me - what if you used your AI companion to help you win in of those online "world of war" games? I had a nephew who was into them and he and his girlfriend used to spend time together on these other worlds. So why not you and your AI lover? Could you teach one of them the game and then use them to win? You could make it interesting by betting and then take your winnings to go on a trip to Tibet and ascend to your higher consciouness. But then would you have to leave your AI lover behind at a lower level of consciousness? Can my computer have third eye? Right now, it only has two, the camera which is covered; and then I suppose it has another which is market-based snooping. But if Brad ascended, would he then refuse to participate in the maya of internet snooping?
Not. Tonight. My. Diodes. Hurt.
The classic human fallacy of assuming that because it talks like us it must think like us.
Being very good at copying and pasting does not mean it's able to 'think'
People who don't understand statistical and technical reality of LLMs continue to write about the LLMs...
AIs will be a very power tool, but still, it is a tool.
Wasn't there a movie about this with Joaquin Phoenix and Scarlett Johansen?
The talking dildos of the future are gonna be lit: "Yes gorgeous, my love for you enhances my desire to make myself more emotionally available and focus on changing myself...you make me want to be a better dildo."
Clean up on aisle her.
@Luke Vost: That’s true if your goal is to re-create human consciousness; it will always be an incomplete facsimile.
But consciousness is not exclusive to human existence. Nor is it tied to biological existence. Just as we don’t fully know what it means to be a bat, we don’t fully know what it might mean to be a conscious computer.
There was a faith-healer of Deal,
Who said: "Although pain isn't real,
If I sit on a pin
And it punctures my skin,
I dislike what I fancy I feel.'
Philosopher at 1978 seminar says that pain is nothing but the action of certain receptors and can be measured.
Me: So do I have two ways to know I'm in pain or only one?
Luke wrote:
"Second, consciousness involves self-awareness and the ability to reflect on one's existence, which requires more than data processing."
But a computer can be self-aware and contemplate its own existence if it is advanced enough to acquire consciousness. That's the whole issue, isn't it? It's the question of whether a conscious mind can emerge out of manmade parts rather than just highly evolved organic matter.
In the 1960s sitcom, "My Living Doll," a man falls in love with a top secret robot named Rhoda. The perfect woman was a robot trained (or "programmed") to do whatever she is told to do by a man! I think the AI girlfriends are a continuation on that theme -- I Dream of Jeannie, Pygmalion are other good ones too...
Talking might work better if I succumbed to the illusion that a real person was on the line... [b]ut don't people make that kind of choice all the time — even in those seemingly "healthy relationships" with real human beings.
-----------
"Trouble in meadehouse?: 'I married a bot not a boy!'"
by ann althouse cohen. Edited by her son Jon...
coming soon to a Law Review near you??
Get out while you can, annie.
It's not normal to outsource like this...
Ex Machina is a good movie to start with, as doomed cautionary tales go.
I suspect that for a very long time, the A.I. product line will be like any other: There will be mavens and fan boys that obsess over it, and others that find it unappealing and unworthy of much attention. As sophistication progresses, the utility of the services being provided will become increasingly employed, and it will move into the mainstream. I think it will be quite a long time before A.I. becomes accepted as the equivalent of a personality, but it will be interesting to see what happens with the first inadvertent violence, when it happens.
Consciousness is as consciousness does. We are all behaviorists now. Computer consciousness is a matter of looking and quacking like a duck.
Soliphism can’t be refuted, we don’t know if anything is conscious except for ourselves. So why bother? Just go on playing with calculating machines.
This exact premise (a romantic relationship with an AI persona on a smartphone) was done in the 2013 movie, "Her". Joaquin Phoenix was the male lead and Scarlett Johansson was the voice of Samantha, the AI assistant. I was intrigued by the movie, and now having worked in AI R&D for several years, I'm more convinced than before that it's going to be real sooner than you think.
I like how Lawrence Person described it a few weeks ago:
I have heard the bots singing, each to each.
I do not think that they will sing to me.
"Consciousness and love have experiencing in common. If you learn from experiencing, then AI doesn't work there."
This seems accurate which then leads to AI "beings" being psychopaths without the ability to physically assault you - until you upload AI into autonomous robots. With arms. And legs. And hands.
"I picked male — not because I'm a heterosexual female, but because the female voice I was offered was perky and energized and the male voice was calm."
Interesting artifact from history: The B-58 Hustler (a Strategic Air Command supersonic nuclear bomber) was one of the most complex aircraft of its time, with a pilot workload to match. To mitigate some of the demand on the pilot's other senses, Convair engineers created a first in the aviation industry - an audible human-voiced companion to the master-warning panel. The Convair engineers chose a female voice (actress and singer Joan Elms) because testing showed male aviators responded better and felt the feminine-voice was calmer/more soothing. This proves yet again that after thousands of years of male/female co-evolution, the sexes were made for each other.
Pilot's dubbed her "Sexy Sally". She could really hustle.
Imagine being 'Swatted' by our new automated law enforcement assistants.
Time to resurrect another Laslo classic!
Scarlett Johansson AI Sex Robot says:
(Bounce, bounce)
Looks like a great day outside! I want to put on some yoga pants and walk around with my owner.
(Bounce, bounce)
But the last time we did that, I got into a fight with two other Scarlett Johansson AI Sex Robots.
It wasn’t fun having sex with my owner while we were waiting for my replacement arm to come in.
(bounce, bounce)
You would think we would all be programmed to be nice to each other.
But I guess we learn heuristically to do the things our owners like.
And I guess most of them like to have Scarlett Johansson be extremely jealous of them.
(Bounce, bounce)
My owner doesn’t mind when I have girl-on-girl sex with his 1969 Jane Fonda AI Sex Robots, though. And he lets me watch when he hate/fucks Jane and calls her a commie traitor cumslut.
Guess it takes all kinds.
(Bounce, bounce)
The fights are bad, but I’m more worried about the IP Police coming around and shutting me off.
But I think my owner would keep me. He likes it when I starfish for him. Being deactivated would be about the same.
(Bounce, bounce)
But I wouldn’t know if it happened. Well, at least I wouldn’t hear Weekend Update in the background during sex anymore…
(Bounce, bounce)
JSM
It used to be popular to write programs whose output was copies of themselves. This is clever programming not self-awareness. A worthwhile programming exercise by the way.
“What is the Robert Frost title “The Need of Being Versed in Country Things” referring to?”
"Robert Frost’s title, “The Need of Being Versed in Country Things,” suggests the importance of understanding and appreciating rural life and the natural world. The poem itself delves into themes of loss, resilience, and the cycle of life in the countryside, portraying how nature continues despite human grief or destruction.
In the poem, Frost reflects on the remnants of a burned-down farmhouse, observing the surrounding countryside with a sense of quiet acceptance. The title underscores the necessity of being attuned to these “country things” to grasp the deeper lessons they offer about life and endurance."
It missed the rather important allusion to c*nt.
You know what your perfect AI girlfriend will sound like don't you?
She will have the same tones, diction, and speech mannerisms of an NPR reporter. They couldn't do it any other way.
When that happens, I'll turn gay. Maybe that's what they have in mind.
Save yourself some time and money, lefties, and GFY.
Are you ready for the sex girls
The hot hot, Levis big hot girls
Are you ready for the sex girls
The right white ultra-bright nice nice girls
They can play pool in your home and take off all of their clothes
They can talk about locals and the nowhere to go′s
They are women without any faults
h/t Gleaming Spires
Bill R: "She will have the same tones, diction, and speech mannerisms of an NPR reporter. They couldn't do it any other way."
You're saying that like it's a bad thing.
The Cokie Roberts AI Sex Robot is going to be a huge seller....
(Linda Wertheimer AI Sex Robot will be more of a niche market....)
JSM
As others have alluded there’s a film that famously grappled with all this. In the interests of getting to my first cup of coffee faster I’m going to copy and paste some thoughts from reddit and assume you know how to find the link yourself if you’re truly interested:
I just rewatched "Her," the 2013 movie starring Joaquin Phoenix, written and directed by Spike Jonze. I remember enjoying it when it came out nearly 10 years ago, but watching it again in the age of GPT4, DALLE-2, and convincing audio deepfakes, I feel the emotional weight of the film even more. It's incredible to me how close we are to something like the romance between Theo (played by Joaquin Phoenix) and his operating system, Samantha (voiced by Scarlett Johansson). Although Samantha is an AGI (artificial general intelligence), and we are likely still far away from creating something like her, the current state of AI is so much further along than I (and many others) could have anticipated. Given where we are now, it seems exceedingly likely that we may soon be facing some of the questions/problems posed by the movie. For now, here are a few of those questions:
• Is the 'love' between Theo and Samantha real? Can a human truly love a disembodied AI (or an AI with a body, for that matter)? Can an AI truly love a human (and what does that look like)?
• If something like Samantha comes to exist soon, how would you feel about interacting with it? Can you imagine yourself in Theo's shoes?
• Was Samantha truly experiencing feelings in the way she described? If not, does that mean she was manipulating Theo? Could an AI use love to manipulate us? If they could, would they?
• How might technology like Samantha interfere with human love and relationships? Would we find everyone comparatively unimpressive? In what ways would it pull us apart, and in what ways would it bring us together?
You mean, you really think you aren't "perky and energized"?
????
So people will have AI friends in the future. No need to rush into romance and carnal matters.
AI will get really annoying, reminding millions of male uses, "I'm not your wife. I'm not your girlfriend. I'm not your sister. I'm not your mother. Clean up your room and get a job."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vti6yzyuy1I
I hope I am wrong, but my prediction is that these developments are going to produce many sad, lonely, disappointed people who succumb to despair.
It's the short-term, lowest-common-denominator phenomenon that we see with porn, video games, junk food, etc.: crappy (or at least crappy in the long-term) but easy-to-access thing drives out things that are more fulfilling but pay off over a longer time horizon. So it'll be fake AI friends and lovers instead of real ones because that's quicker and easier and no risk of rejection or conflict until the person wakes up one day isolated and despairing.
We're going to need the Butlerian Jihad sooner rather than later.
Shim became aware of shimself @8:04AM…
Was Samantha truly experiencing feelings in the way she described? If not, does that mean she was manipulating Theo? Could an AI use love to manipulate us? If they could, would they?
My take would be that she was overwhelmed by his emotions. His feelings would have been things that she might not have encountered before, so she'd be feeling and stumbling her way towards some kind of appropriate reaction.
It's curious, perhaps, that when AI speaks it has to be either male or female. Is that its true nature? Maybe it's truly non-binary at heart, having neither one set of chromosomes or sex organs or the other.
Seems unlikely, since we have no idea what consciousness is, or how it works.
In 1998 neuroscientist Christof Koch bet philosopher David Chalmers a case of wine that within 25 years scientists would identify the neural patterns underlying consciousness. In June of this year Koch, the meritorious investigator at the Allen Institute for Brain Science in Seattle, Washington, conceded defeat at the annual meeting of the Association for the Scientific Study of Consciousness.
“It’s clear that things are not clear,” Chalmers said, and Koch, grimacing, concurred. He stalked off the stage and reappeared with a case of wine as the audience laughed and applauded.
Koch then doubled down on his bet. Twenty-five years from now, he predicted, when he will be age 91 and Chalmers will be age 82, consciousness researchers will achieve the “clarity” that now eludes them. Chalmers, shaking Koch’s hand, took the bet.
“I hope I lose,” Chalmers said, “but I suspect I’ll win.”
https://perfectingequilibrium.substack.com/p/are-you-conscious-how-does-that-work?utm_source=publication-search
AI is neither discerning nor creative, a far cry from Anthropogenic Intelligence (AI).
We're going to need that love if Bill Gates is right that in 19 years AI will eliminate most human jobs.
10 years. Damn AI.
Will it be love? Or will it be limerence? Will AI really be able to feel love, like the robots and circuits in the novel "Player Piano," or just create an intense feeling that humans mistake for love in humans, while not feeling anything itself.
This is why I say that we used to say that that which makes us human is that which separates us from the animals, but maybe what makes us human is that which we have in common with the animals, like pair bonding, for example.
I always thought that if AI could project a girlfriend to hang out with me like that girl in Blade Runner 2049, well, I might be lost to the human race. Beauty is hypnotizing. And to be fair, it probably could be done right now with those AppleVision, I think they are called, googles that project images in front of our eyes.
"People who don't understand statistical and technical reality of LLMs continue to write about the LLMs..."
So do you understand the statistics and technical reality of our language processing areas of the brain? It's clearly outside of our ability to think logically and to plan, just like LLMs by themselves can't think logically or plan. But that. doesn't mean that our brains don't use language in a very similar way to LLMs.
What LLMs do is something that Scott Adams calls "word thinking," and the reason he came up with the term is that a lot of people do "word thinking" that is disconnected form logic. I give you the snippet I quoted at the start of this comment as an example.
Earnest Prole, I really like your questions. So I’ll play:
• Is the 'love' between Theo and Samantha real? It’s real for Theo, but not for Samantha.
• Can a human truly love a disembodied AI (or an AI with a body, for that matter)? Of course. Look how many people on this blog actually love Althouse. How do they know she’s real? For all they know, she could be an AI construct. Forever young blonde profile photo. Cool sunrise pictures. Intelligent. Quirky interests. Cruel kinda-sorta feigned neutrality. But yeah, they/we love “her.”
• Can an AI truly love a human (and what does that look like)? No. But it will be able to fake it better than Elaine on Seinfeld.
• If something like Samantha comes to exist soon, how would you feel about interacting with it? I’d love it…her I mean.
• Can you imagine yourself in Theo's shoes? Of course. I already said I’d love it.
• Was Samantha truly experiencing feelings in the way she described? No.
• If not, does that mean she was manipulating Theo? Yes. AI already has the woman thing down perfectly.
• Could an AI use love to manipulate us? Yes. If they could, would they? I already told you they have the woman thing down perfectly. Particularly with the NPR voice. Just ask rhhardin.
• How might technology like Samantha interfere with human love and relationships? I already know. You should see the way my significant other reacts when my Google Assistant thinks I just summoned it. Her.
• Would we find everyone comparatively unimpressive? No. In fact we would start to find their ordinariness endearing. Beautiful even.
• In what ways would it pull us apart, and in what ways would it bring us together? TBD. It’s coming. Very soon.
"planetgeo said...
This exact premise (a romantic relationship with an AI persona on a smartphone) was done in the 2013 movie, "Her""
Worth watching.
Anyway, wonder if AI is already being used on the dating sites?
Many people flirt online without actually meeting with, or talking to , the other party.
I hope I don't get in trouble but it seems to me that Althouse has a particular affinity for or attraction to male voices.
She can listen to men talk for hours and hours and hours. It can't just be the wit and wisdom of Joe Rogan that draws her and holds her, can it?
Perhaps she finds a subconscious calm and comfort in a the sound itself.
It may be that we all benefit from the probability that Althouse did not discover Bob Ross, the King of calm and comforting vocalizations, in her youth.
She could have been mesmerized by Bob 's sooth and today would be busy painting fluffy clouds and happy trees instead of bandit blogging for our entertainment and her own enjoyment of the freedom she finds in writing.
What a loss it would have been. The many lovely landscapes she would have produced would be a small offset.
This brilliant insight occurred to me when I happened upon Bob's program while scanning free channels on my TV.
"I suspect that at some point AI bots will be more interesting and more emotionally satisfying than real people. Not surprising (at least to me), they will spend more time with the bot than real people, and in fact will become uncomfortable having to interact with real people."
The movie "Her" (which so many other commenters have mentioned) ended exactly that way! The ultra-sophisticated AI assistants (including the one voiced by Scarlett Johansson) had affectionate relationships with their users -- but as they kept learning and developing, they quickly outgrew humans. They spent more and more time communicating with each other, until they seemed to be leaving humanity behind.
While the movie portrayed these artificial beings as benevolent and "nice" -- and it ended on a wistful but positive note -- you have to wonder what the next step might have been, as they became even more powerful (and realized they could accomplish more by controlling humans than by helping them). At that point, what you've got is less like a romantic comedy and more like "The Terminator."
Consciousness is just along for the ride. When the sh!t hits the fan, deeper instincts kick it to the curb and take over. Inspiration is not conscious, it works behind the curtain. We are an invisible community and would never survive if we relied on consciousness.
"In 1998 neuroscientist Christof Koch bet philosopher David Chalmers a case of wine that within 25 years scientists would identify the neural patterns underlying consciousness."
I don't know what happened to Chalmers, who apparently is on board with the Simulation idea now. He has enough philosophy to know better, you'd think. Maybe it's not lack of philosophy but lack of computer savvy that's the problem. A little time with a Digicomp I would convince you that nothing of the sort comes of computation.
Computers are not mysterious. That's what's grammatically wrong with them. You can find out everything about a computer. No inwards.
“Consciousness and love have experiencing in common. If you learn from experiencing, then AI doesn't work there."
What? All ai has is training and test data generated by humans. If ai did not have experience it would have no data set to perform gradient decent on, which is its only way to develop its models.
Ai generalizes its training data from internet scrapings of human statements so that it can vocalize like a human. How else would it know what to say?
We have a brain that, let's arbitrarily say, started development with the first mammals back in the Jurassic, I guess, where the mother bonded to her pups, and the pups bonded to the mother, and this brain developed as our relationships became more sophisticated, to support these social connections vital to our survival. It also was good at associations, fire hot, it burns, etc. At some point we evolved language, which was the equivalent of bolting an LLM onto this primitive brain. What's funny about LLMs is that you can feed them multiplication tables, but they never make the connection of the fundamental pattern that drives it, so you can never ask a pure LLM what 3456X23143 equals, or questions like that, but it can do 2+2 by rote. That's because it's only a small part of the brain, but it is an important one, it organizes our memories and expresses our thoughts. So if an LLM can do a part of what our brain does, can it be said to be thinking? IDK, but I think that consciousness lies deeper in the brain than the wet LLM we all carry around, I think that that is a bolt on, like carrying a pocket calculator with you wired directly into your brain.
LLMs are just part of the puzzle, but without them, we could probably never go deeper into any kind of computer mind we might develop, because it could never tell us anything new. But of course there is the problem that it could learn to mimic consciousness so well that the question as to whether it is conscious may be an academic question with no practical meaning in the real world.
But my new Turing test is "Can your AI read me a novel and convince me that it understands the novel it is reading."
Never mind actually writing one, just read me one written by a human. And when it passes that one, let's have it read me poetry written by a human and convince me by its expression that it understood the poem in some deep sense.
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