Joschka Fischer, identified by the NYT as "a former foreign minister, radical leftist in his younger days and now a Green party stalwart."
He's quoted in "In Germany, ‘Orphaned’ by U.S., Shock Gives Way to Action/No country in Europe is as much a product of enlightened postwar American diplomacy. Now adrift, it has begun to reckon with a new world."
Who said "orphaned"? Who viewed Germany as America's child?
“The initial shock has given way to a sense of mobilization,” said Thomas Bagger, a top official at the German Foreign Ministry. “It was a sudden feeling of being on our own, a bit orphaned.... But now there’s a bit more of a self-confident line. There is an understanding that Europe is now what’s left of the West, and that’s especially important for Germany.”
The sense of betrayal by Washington is perhaps strongest among Germans who grew up in the first decades after World War II. “There’s no other country in Europe that is as much a product of enlightened postwar American policy as Germany,” said Mr. Bagger, born in 1965. “So the shock is deeper here.”
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95 comments:
Europe: Me and my best friend made a suicide pact, but now he's wanting to back out, so it looks like I'll have to go it alone. It hurts, but I'm determined to go through with it alone if I have to.
The Sitzpinklers.
Germany chose to cut off the United States. They rather we have a President without cognitive ability than one that makes them pay for "the power that protected us". When we chose differently, they now want to isolate from the US.
Just like they chose Russia to provide them natural gas during Trump's first administration.
Germany isn't orphaned. Dad just finally kicked its lazy ass out of the basement.
So, no mention of Germany not living up to its obligations?
This used to be called "tough love."
The presumption is strong with him. There must be a German word for feeling smugly superior while presuming that a foreign nation's largess in providing security must continue unabated for all time, all the while promoting woke ideology yet claiming to be the true representative of Western ethos.
That mean orange man told us to grow up, grow a pair, and start paying our own way.
Turns out electing a communist , Merkel, who flooded Germany with 3d world savages, wasn't a good idea.
so, Just to be clear...
Germany is wanting to:
a) build a HUGE Army..
b) march it through Poland..
c) use it to attack, defeat, and destroy the Russians..
and
d) they're UPSET, that America isn't supportive?
Norm MacDonald on Germany
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXdtafGdIVM
you'd think, that.. at This Point, the World would say to Germany..
Global Warming scam leftist, who has supported the European left destroying Germany and its local communities through stupid immigration and energy policies, is upset because MAGA America is resisting doing the same.
Noted. Don't give a shit. Good luck Fraulein.
Maybe we should send over James Taylor to sing them a song.
"I've seen fire and I've seen rain. I've seen sunny days that I thought would never end.
I've seen lonely times when I could not find a friend, but I always thought that I'd see you again."
It’s been near 80 years since we ‘adopted’ Germany. Wtf?
"Who viewed Germany as America's child?"
Germany was NEVER America's child.
For a while, it might have been America's Bitch;
but it was never even a GOOD bitch (like Japan).
Serious Question: WHAT has Deutschland EVER done for the USA?
You KNOW who has been a good kid.. The Republic of Korea.
not even sure if either Music, or Miniskirts would still exist without the ROK
@gilbar. Do you think Russia will continue to supply Germany with oil during Germany's march through Poland on their way to Russia?
Very sad. Pretty much like listening to one of the Menendez brothers whining about their plight of being an orphan even if Dad miraculously survived the shotgun blast and cut off his allowance and inheritance.
Got the weeping, just need the gnashing of teeth.
I remember those same German diplomats smirking at Trump when he told them to their faces that purposely becoming dependent on Russian NG would not end well for them
"There must be a German word for feeling smugly superior while presuming that a foreign nation's largess in providing security must continue unabated for all time"
There is! Selbstgefalliguberlegenegeschenkbedingt
In 1986 a young Dutch engineer assured me that Europe didn't need America's protection, especially not the missiles Reagan was sending them.
The delusion was strong.
Western Europe transitions to Islam as the fools in Europe rant about the United States
Gusty Winds said...
@gilbar. Do you think Russia will continue to supply Germany with oil during Germany's march through Poland on their way to Russia?
In June of 1941, as German tanks crossed the Russian border headed East, they passed Russian trains carrying oil and wheat to feed the German Army...
Germany isn't orphaned. Dad just finally kicked its lazy ass out of the basement.
@jerpod, +1
3 years ago Russia invaded Ukraine. THREE YEARS.
What exactly did Germany and the EU do during that time in terms of mobilization, build-up, defense readiness, etc.?
All of this wailing is the most ridiculous thing. Exactly what is Germany GIVING or PROVIDING the U.S. with in exchange for global military backing of Germany's interests?
This shit's crazy.
Gilbar said: "Serious Question: WHAT has Deutschland EVER done for the USA?" Well, they sent us 270,000 Wisconsinites (as of 1900) and formed the backbone of this great state. Also, a bunch of POWs to pick cherries during WWII.
Multi-ethnic, okay, but a multi-cultural nation is not compatible with freedom of speech, freedom of the press, individual rights, equality and even meritocracy because many cultures will not abide those things.
Those freedoms are our culture in the "west". Repression of individual rights and freedoms is part and parcel of most other cultures geographically and historically.
The nations of Europe are cracking down on citizen rights to try to make the multicultural nation idea work. Another imported culture will become ascendent and eventually dominate. At that point it won't be a multicultural nation anymore. It will be a nation with a different culture, probably the worst one.
"the guiding star in the sky" Huh? Fischer used to be a slightly less-BS-lefty, but if even he shovels it now, it doesn't bode well for EU. I mean, which Europeans viewed US as "star"? De Gaulle? Schmidt? Merkel? Palme? Cohn-Bendit? Habermas? Fischer himself?
Anyway, world order is changing, EU has to fend for itself mostly, the rest is childish rhetoric.
WhoKnew said...
Well, they sent us 270,000 Wisconsinites (as of 1900) and formed the backbone of this great state.
Sent or ran off?
Joschka Fischer, identified by the NYT as "a former foreign minister, radical leftist in his younger days and now a Green party stalwart."
“Radical leftist in his younger days”? A “Green party stalwart” is still a radical leftist, just wrong about something else these days.
"Who viewed Germany as America's child?" That's not an uncommon perception among those who grew up in Germany after the war -- Americans brought democracy, rock and roll and chocolate -- and also among fringe groups who aren't happy about West Germany's Americanization. The relationship between the US and Germany is complicated.
In spite of the two wars, there's an intimacy between Germany and America. In a sense America is also Germany's child, both because of the massive German immigration here in the 19th century and because, as Allan Bloom was always saying, post-war American culture had been "Germanized" by Middle European emigres even as West Germany was being "Americanized" by occupation forces and returning emigres.
Fringers regret the loss of some older, "authentic" Germany. Hitler's war finished that off, but even before him, that Germany was becoming a thing of the past. It's also significant that Germany and Western Europe went further down the FDR path of social programs and centralization than the US was willing to go. There was something in Germany and other European countries that responded to that New Deal message, perhaps because it wasn't uniquely American. West Germans of Fischer's generation have felt "orphaned" at various times because Germany was so successfully demilitarized and America wasn't. I guess that's changing now.
Germany's full of drama club kids, who'd a thunk it?
Biden promised Germany that we would humiliate Russia for them, even at the risk of nuclear war, break it up into small and manageable pieces with our own installed leaders, and provide Europe with cheap resources from there, like gas, lithium, etc, etc... for them once we had that bastard Putin, who was demanding world prices for Russian commodities, out of the way.
It's weird that the German Green Party is so stalwart in its support for war against Russia. I think that its voters are secretly happy that Germany is being de-industrialized by it.
and now a Green party stalwart
He has a good eye for ash heaps.
(some or) my ancestors are from Germany..
a LONG WAY from Germany. They left when the Prussians took over. Most Germans came to america either
BEFORE there was a Germany..
or, BECAUSE there was a Germany
[Aug 1 1866. Prussia and fifteen smaller northern German states signed the North German Confederation Treaty, transferring their armed forces to the North German Confederation under the command of the Prussian king William I, German Emperor. ]
Back in the 1970s I met a German student attending graduate school here in the US. He arrogantly insisted that of course the US would defend Berlin before we’d ever defend Jerusalem. I looked him in the eyes and quietly asked which city was closest to Mideast oil fields. He just stared at me with eyes as big as saucers.
Big Mike said, "He arrogantly insisted that of course the US would defend Berlin before we’d ever defend Jerusalem. I looked him in the eyes and quietly asked which city was closest to Mideast oil fields. He just stared at me with eyes as big as saucers."
"Germany as America's child" in the same way Israel is America's wife...everybody is always looking at dad to do something with their hands out.
Germany has overtaken Europe without firing a shot. Who.leads the EU? And the new tyrants are already in.place, masquerading as 'Globalists', as they imagine they can subjugate their natives with an Islamic invasion of uncontrolled immigration. Won't they be surprised. A civil war on 2 fronts.
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They razed paradise
And put up a bunch of mosques
Just like a child who gripes that their parents are making them clean their room and pay their own way. Boo Hoo Hoo
"Well, they sent us 270,000 Wisconsinites (as of 1900) and formed the backbone of this great state."
Draft dodgers and disaffected peasants.
You have to remember something about the old world. If you weren't middle class or above you would never own anything in your own name, ever. The land you tilled. The house you lived in. The tools of your trade all belonged to someone else. The new world offered something that the old world couldn't. The opportunity to own the land you lived on. The house you slept in and the tools to practice your trade.
@Boyd, LOL!
gilbar said...
so, Just to be clear...
Germany is wanting to:
a) build a HUGE Army..
b) march it through Poland..
c) use it to attack, defeat, and destroy the Russians..
and
d) they're UPSET, that America isn't supportive?
I laughed at this too.
But it is worse than this. Much worse. You have to use game theory to properly to see what I am talking about.
Right now if you put US interests first and took all of the moral preening and grandstanding out this is the picture:
The Primary geopolitical threat is China. Every action taken by the US needs to be balanced around how it deals with China. In any game theory set the overwhelming number of bad scenarios for the US are bad outcomes in the conflict with China.
Who are potential allies? India is the obvious number 1. In 10-15 years they will be more powerful than China. This is demographic certainty. #2 should be Europe here. But Europe gets a paragraph below. #3 could be Brazil but it isn't. Brazil needs to have an uprising against the Judge that rules that country currently. It will soon be an ally once the current tyrant runs out of USAID money.
#3 is Russia. And Russia has wanted to be a US ally for 30 years. Once the corruption in Ukraine and the Genocide that Western Ukrainians were committing against Eastern Ukrainian people becomes more widely known this will not be a big step. Particularly with what is going on in Europe right now.
At this moment Europe is going full totalitarian. Pay attention to the news. 5 countries have arrested "far-right" candidates. Several more "far-right" candidates have been banned from ballots. In Germany government funded "Antifa" and Islamic immigrants take turns knifing AfD members. The Brits are throwing anyone who complains about pakistani immigrants raping young british girls in jail. Turkey is openly burning. Europe is cruising for a reckoning right now and the people are begging for the US to help them. Current regimes in Europe are sidling up with China right now. If the totalitarians of the EU win Europe turns into a 3rd world failed regime run by an amalgamation of antifa/islamists as the Red Book enforcers and they side with China. If the people of Europe throw off these tyrants they retire into demographic doom.
A US/Indian/Russian alliance is the best move for the US with a US/Americans First set of policy goals and no stupid moral preening or pretentious stupidity that will get Americans killed in wars.
Germany doesn't feel "orphaned", only Neo-liberal Globalist Germany. The Greens are the most America-like German party. Did anyone at the NYT's talk to the AFD voters?
After the cold war ended, I thought the USA would say "Mission Accomplished" and leave Europe, but I guess the love of fighting "Russia" is too strong for some. Anyway, the Euros have everything they need to "fight Putin" if that's what they want. They don't need the USA. But lots of our power elite just love being the "Big dog" in Europe, and playing the "Great Game".
WWII ended 80 years ago and the Berlin Wall fell over 35 years ago. I appreciate the affinity with America, and we can still be family, but it's time to get a job and move out of the house. You're not a kid anymore.
BTW, our allies need us, we don't really need them. We're 4000 miles from Russia. We've 5000 miles from China. We have a huge economy, the worlds largest Navy, and 10,000 (more or less) nuclear weapons. And its all one world now economically. Nobody in China or Russia is going to CONQUER THE WORLD!!!
Trump is trying to put some sanity back in our foreign policy but the neo-cons and warhawks only support him when he wants to attack someone in the middle east.
Jaq said...
It's weird that the German Green Party is so stalwart in its support for war against Russia. I think that its voters are secretly happy that Germany is being de-industrialized by it.
It isn't weird. You just have to correctly frame the goals of the Green Party in Germany. The Green Party wants the government to team up with the biggest corporations to control the lives of the people.
Under the auspices of saving the planet of course.
But the controlling the lives of people and allying with corporations is the important part.
I read once that Germans were better people when they had an American standing nearby watching them. I say let the Germans pay for their own defense, have fair trade with the US, and we'll still hang around and keep an eye on them via NATO membership. And the Greens can go to hell.
Auf Wiedersehen.
“There’s no other country in Europe that is as much a product of enlightened postwar American policy as Germany.”
That’s a rather damning indictment of postwar US policy.
Let’s leave Germany to their own devices — what could possibly go wrong?
"A US/Indian/Russian alliance is the best move for the US with a US/Americans First set of policy goals and no stupid moral preening"
we need to ask ourselves..
Can we live with Bollywood, instead of Hollywood?
The answer is: HELL, YES!
if you don't think so.. Try watching some Bollywood.
Start with something by Aishwarya Rai
("I Have Found It" original title: Kandukondain Kandukondain
is a great place to start, but its Tamil not Hindi)
They want to get washed, but they don't want to get wet. (Wasch mich, aber mach mich nicht nas.)
But, don't we all?
Boyd: "They razed paradise/And put up a bunch of mosques"
Genius! I would add:
Cut off all the peens
And put up a peen museum
Charge all the people
A buck and a half just to see 'em....
JSM
Interesting that European leaders see themselves as what's left of the West, while here in America, so many of us view Europe as lost to the West. Working on becoming Islamic, or socialist. It seems to not be able to quite decide until history decides for it.
Also interesting that, after four years of behind the curtain, group-think, deep-state direction under the guise of a Joe Biden 'Presidency', Europe felt good and comfortable. Even as they watched Ukraine blow up- that felt 'normal' to them.
Trump, working on peace, is abnormal to them. Trump calling things as they are, using those words that are not typically allowed to point out things as he sees them has their hair on fire. He's been in office 2 months now. And their hair is on fire because he's not following them. Not like a good Biden would. Not on Kyoto. Not on Ukraine. Not on immigration. Not on so many things.
In a sense, if they are waiting for American approval, they'll be waiting a long time. And I think they understand now: They have to stand on their own. And it'll be good for them. It'll make Europe have to face some hard choices. Such as Halal or non-halal?
America's post WW2 hegemony has enabled an 80 year status quo for Germany of reasonable prosperity coupled with slow socialist decline made tolerable by the sense that the decline would be slow enough to allow the lucky and powerful to live out their lives. The status quo is about to change. Sad.
Like a trust fund teenager cut off from the family fortune, and now "how does it feel to be on your own, a complete unknown".
Earnest Prole said...
Prole is right. Our bases in Europe are perfectly placed to make subjugation a forgone conclusion. So much so Europe cannot ally openly with China like they want to.
At this point we need to recognize the people running Europe are not our allies. The people ruling Europe are not good people. The rulers of Europe are importing Islamists because they need willing soldiers. They are letting all of the men from Islamic countries rape their own women as payoff for enlistment in their battle to subjugate dissidents.
It is a slight twist on consistent historical patterns.
Well - the language alone shows that this is a county being a brat. It's not as if this is sudden, either. They have been asked to contribute to NATO defense and live up to their treaty commitment for decades. Time to get real.
I feel like we lived through this genre of angst and stories in the GWB era.
"...being a brat."
That's quite good, but the French are the wurst.
It's been 80 years. Time to get your own life, kid. We're moving to the future.
Most Western European countries are like the ingrate fully grown children living in their parents’ basement, contributing little or nothing to the household. They think providing for themselves is beneath them. And now, they’re letting others move into the basement and expecting the parents to support them as well, even when they’re hostile.
The Euro's pledged $40Bn to the Ukraine kleptocracy. Noe it looks like only $2Bn is coming. Good luck, Euros.
Hitler said that the Germans would have amounted to more if they had been Muslims. That assumes that one can be both, but I have my doubts; the experiment is being run right now.
The Germans aren't going to invade anyone, least of all Russia. They don't have the will or the funds to build a credible offensive force, and they barely have a credible defensive one.
The only answer to all this is nuclear proliferation--worldwide MAD where everyone can destroy everyone else. It will take decades to reach that point, of course, but the trend should start in Europe.
Oh...the drama! There's only 1,403 days to go. Man up.
[the US has] the worlds largest Navy [...]
If by largest, you mean by numbers (ships or tonnage)? Not these days. Also not in terms of ships under construction. One could make a reasonable case that ours is still the most powerful Navy, for now, but not that we are the largest. Nor will we be for the foreseeable future based on the pace of our acquisition system and the capacity of our industrial base. Case in point: Constellation class FFG. Virginia class SSN construction numbers as a bonus. Even highest priority programs like the new SSBN Columbia class will be available later than planned, impacting strategic deterrence as the Ohio class starts getting decommissioned.
Not saying Pax Americana on the high seas is over, but a peer competitor is now on the playing field.
Achilles: "Right now if you put US interests first and took all of the moral preening and grandstanding out this is the picture:
The Primary geopolitical threat is China. Every action taken by the US needs to be balanced around how it deals with China. In any game theory set the overwhelming number of bad scenarios for the US are bad outcomes in the conflict with China."
One thousand times this ^^^^
Joe Bar: "The Euro's pledged $40Bn to the Ukraine kleptocracy. Noe it looks like only $2Bn is coming. Good luck, Euros."
That walkback is nuttin'!
Macron hs already walked back the rediculous EU-boots-on-the-ground-cuz-we-dont-need-the-US bluster because....(wait for it, wait for it) ....there is no guarantee the US will provide significant backup in theater!
LOL
Europe is lost and will be completely islamicized in 20 years. Its the US, India, remnants of Eastern Europe and perhaps, though unlikely, some pieces of current Russia that will hold the line down the road.
“There’s no other country in Europe that is as much a product of enlightened postwar American policy as Germany,”
It's weird how many modern people imagine a rose-colored past that didn't exist. Post WWII America had more in common with Trump and the current Republicans than the modern Progressive movement does. That's why so many Democrats kept saying that Trump wanted to "take us back" to a past time.
I agree that the primary threat to the USA and the West in general is China, but China has collapsed into bloody chaos before and can do it again.
But IMO China is primary only by a thread, with Islam edging up. The Chinese are a world unto themselves, hard to rouse for conquest, but Islam looks--in a certain light, and at the right angle--like a strong horse for the long run, and conquest is what Islam is about.
Germany "a product of enlightened postwar American policy as Germany" in so far as we kept western Germany from being absorbed into the soviet bloc. I doubt that very many Germans in the postwar era ever viewed America as the "shining city on the hill," especially not on the left, among the Greens, or on the so-called 'far right.'
Whatever life was left in European culture died a long, long time ago. All that is left are the people shuffling around in the houses and cities their ancestors built who don't even have the will to stop invaders from raping their wives, sisters, and daughters, or cutting their own throats.
It's not quite as bad as thinking Springsteen's "Born in the USA" is an unapologetic celebration of America, but this "shining city on a hill" trope is usually well off the mark. The shining city is a place where non-residents can see what the residents are doing. So don't screw up. It doesn't necessarily mean it is a place where the streets are paved with gold, everybody is treated fairly, and every resident has been elected to everlasting happiness.
Did this German Green ever own up to the fact that their net zero policies have caused electricity rates to skyrocket to 3x to 4x the US average.
Why did the US re-build, support and protect Europe in the post-war years?
Because we were opposing the Soviet Union everywhere in the world.
And why did we so strenuously oppose the Soviet Union? Because their anti-human values were antithetical to everything we believed in and would fight for.
Now Europe is embracing many of the same antithetical values we fought against in the decades long Cold War. Not only that, they are actively working to undermine our human liberties and push those noxious values here in the US through multiple legal and illegal means.
So in light of that, why should we continue supporting and protecting Europe? The governments of Europe are not fighting for the same things America is fighting for.
Neither is the Democratic Party for that matter.
"Hey Stu(ttgart), your rent's due, motherfucker!
Radical leftist? As in a Baader Meinhof terrorist? They didn’t think much of America.
Radical leftist? As in a Baader Meinhof terrorist? They didn’t think much of America.
EU - be a grownup. thanks.
Zerohedge reports today that the Euros have failed to agree on how to finance the huge defense expenditures that they promised a week ago. The Germans seem to be moving toward actually implementing increased defense expenditures but, once again, I will believe it when I see it. As hard as it is to believe, it seems the Germans have lost the will to defend themselves.
"I doubt that very many Germans in the postwar era ever viewed America as the "shining city on the hill," especially not on the left, among the Greens, or on the so-called 'far right.'" Exactly right. Such fine liars these people can be.
They've hated us for generations and they love to bring up the fact that we rehabilitated a generation of former nazis to run their country after the war. Outsourcing their collective guilt onto those they consider their inferiors.
Joschka Fischer has always advocated that the US to submit itself to the control by the United Nations.
"There is an understanding that Europe is now what’s left of the West, "
I think the problem is you've abandoned Western values. While we had shared values, the US was willing to invest our treasure in defending you even though you shirked your responsibility to defend yourself. It was in our best interests. But now we ask, what about the current incarnation of Europe is worth defending?
Good luck, Frau Blücher!
As if "Green Party stalwart" isn't code for "radical leftist".
"The governments of Europe are not fighting for the same things America is fighting for.
Neither is the Democratic Party for that matter."
The Democrats want what the Europeans are having, they're always going on about how things are better over there and we should do the same things here.
Well... aside from Europe's abortion policies, anyway.
My Great Grandfather immigrated to the US from Germany to get away from the Prussians (who were taking over the formerly more-or-less independent German states).
The "Germans" of WWI were the Prussians, and my "German American" ancestors in America opposed them. My grandfather was too old for military service in WWI , but he joined the State Guard, which filled in for the State National Guard after it was nationalized.
His son, my father, joined the US Army before Pearl Harbor.
Yes, I think there are some aspects of German culture of which I can feel proud. Also English culture. And Irish culture.
But NONE OF THAT means that I have to excuse, much less embrace, sins of one or another or my ancestors.
52nd state?
The Godfather says that 'the 'Germans' of WWI were Prussians.
And Bavarians, Saxons, and Wurttembergers. They all fought hard and well for Imperial Germany. No "the Prussians made us do it" excuses should be accepted.
That's just another version of blaming Big Mistake II all on the Nazis.
Most likely 5 year scenario as this unfolds: US, Japan, Russia, India and Brazil form the bulwark of a socio-political alliance that creates a place for strong Nation-States to do trade in a global trade framework that protects their working classes from predatory countries that abuse their people and manipulate their currency.(China)
Without USAID money and CIA support/organization most globalist structures like the WEF and United Nations Fall apart. All of the predatory Globalist financial systems fall apart and are replaced with a Cryptocurrency based financial system.
This will lead to a global economic boom and the space age in 10 years will blow people's minds.
Only one problem remains. Sadly there is still at least a 50% chance we kill ourselves with AI driven robots or some other
hard to see calamity caused by super intelligence in 5 years.
"Draft dodgers and disaffected peasants?" My Germans were 48ers, refugees from the democratic uprisings. 48ers were the first mass migration of Germans to the U.S.
The three of my GG Grandparents from Wolfschlugen, Württemburg, came over in the 50s and settled in central Iowa post Civil War. In the 1880s the farmers of the district raised money for a new church bell for the home village, the previous one having been melted down for cannon barrels.
Peasants maybe, not draft dodgers.
People say 'draft-dodger' like that's a bad thing for a 19th C European to be. In fact, it shows superior awareness of the realities of European politics and society.
My own Opa may have dodged the kaiser's draft--or maybe not, since the draft took only about half of the eligible young men, heavily weighted to farmers and peasants, and he was a city boy from Hamburg.
When it came time, his son volunteered to serve the USA against his kraut cousins.
Europe's new found enthusiasm for defending itself has already hit a snag. Nobody wants to pay for it.
48ers were the first mass migration of Germans to the U.S.
But not to America. My former boss's ancestors left the Palatinate for Pennsylvania in the 1710s. Germans, Moravians, and Scots-Irish filled up the good Penn. farmland, and much of the overflow moved south to NC and the Shenandoah Valley before the Revolution. Most Midwest Germans are literal parvenus.
Narr,
The only reason there's any angle from which Islam looks like a strong horse, is because we are fighting with both hands tied behind our back.
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