"At one point while Vance is talking, Zelensky moves from leaning forward to leaning back with his arms crossed, showing a 'dramatic change in inner emotion' that Stanton believed was the moment Zelensky realized 'he was going to leave.' 'He felt he wasn’t getting his points across or wasn’t allowed to,' Stanton said, adding that he also thought Trump was greatly frustrated by Zelensky, despite remaining stone-faced."
From "Body-language experts break down the dramatic Trump-Zelensky meeting/The row between Trump and Zelensky was heightened by the lack of an interpreter, the power imbalance, and the men’s TV backgrounds, body-language experts say" (WaPo).
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70 comments:
What do the Phrenologists think?
>Stanton said, adding that he also thought Trump was greatly frustrated by Zelensky, despite remaining stone-faced."<
Awesome call, Dude.
"the moment Zelensky realized 'he was going to leave.' "
i ASSUME, that they mean:
the moment Zelensky realized 'he was going be told to leave.'
Our President was building a case for peace which Zelensky refuses. Normal head butting, but Vance then went for the jugular on Zielensky’s attitude. Then Trump waited a little and then came back in to rescue Vance. Lots of fun.
It all struck me as trivial, just going by the voices. Vance was being a jerk though. He's too young to know that if you're using moral high ground, you don't have it.
Zelensky isn't a "leader",
he is an actor that is playing a role as a puppet.
the Ukraine isn't a country, it's a puppet government installed BY the CIA..
When you are a puppet of the USA.. do NOT adlib..
Read the lines you are given.. you CAN BE REPLACED
There seem to be a pattern of behavior here with Zelenskyy, irrespective of the US president.
Biden lost temper with Zelenskyy in June phone call when Ukrainian leader asked for more aid
NBC NEWS Oct. 31, 2022
...But a phone call between the two leaders in June played out differently from previous ones, according to four people familiar with the call. Biden had barely finished telling Zelenskyy he’d just greenlighted another $1 billion in U.S. military assistance for Ukraine when Zelenskyy started listing all the additional help he needed and wasn’t getting. Biden lost his temper, the people familiar with the call said. The American people were being quite generous, and his administration and the U.S. military were working hard to help Ukraine, he said, raising his voice, and Zelenskyy could show a little more gratitude.
Read Zero Hedge's take on this
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2025-02-28/cutting-zelensky-down-size
Glenn Greenwald should Zelensky is not the hero we make him out to be and Putin is not a cardboard cutout villain
VDH:
"1. Zelenskyy does not grasp—or deliberately ignores—the bitter truth: those with whom he feels most affinity (Western globalists, the American Left, the Europeans) have little power in 2025 to help him. And those with whom he obviously does not like or seeks to embarrass (cf. his Scranton, Penn. campaign-like visit in September 2024) alone have the power to save him. For his own sake, I hope he is not being “briefed” by the Obama-Clinton-Biden gang to confront Trump, given their interests are not really Ukraine’s as they feign."
-------------------------
Funny - as we all watched Zelinski rudely interrupt - my thoughts went straight to thinking he was being coached by the Swamp to do just that.
Does that expertise pay well, d'ya think?
VDH: RTWT
You loyalist leftists might want to open your mind to the reality.
Zelensky asks for a lot. He wants a security guarantee, which means a nation promising to go to war on behalf of Ukraine. For that, Zelensky offers nothing.
Zelensky's argument is based on the notion that if Ukraine falls, Putin will take that win as confidence to keep waging war to rebuild Russia into the size of the USSR. Perhaps that is true, but Putin isn't getting any younger and Russia isn't getting any stronger. Regardless, if Zelensky is correct, then a security guarantee means certain war with Russia.
Who wants a war with Russia? Not any EU nation. Not NATO. And the USA has no reason, other than the one Zelensky suggests, for going to war with Russia.
What Trump wanted was a reason to do anything more for Ukraine. Trump asked for mineral rights. Zelensky said yes to the deal in private, and then publicly said no. After being called out on his duplicity, Zelensky again agreed to the deal and flew across the globe to sign the deal. Apparently Zelensky said "no" again. Then Zelensky, Trump, and Vance held a press conference, where Zelensky made it clear he wanted a security guarantee or nothing.
Trump and Vance had enough. Zelensky didn't even say "thank you" for anything he had already received from the United States. As another pundit noted, it was "strike three". Zelensky was out of a deal and sent home with nothing. Trump's not going to agree to a war with Russia. Trump's also not going to agree to a proxy war with Russia when there is nothing to gain.
To those who think the EU and Canada will come to Ukraine's aid and help Zelensky, what have they done in the last 3 years? What does Ukraine offer any of those countries?
I will at this point note a big difference between Trump and Obama. Obama would have been the very essence of politeness, and nice to Zelensky’s face, and then proceeded to crucify him behind his back. Trump simply chose to speak the truth to his face. I for one prefer the later.
VDH:
"If one views carefully all the 50-minute tape, most of it was going quite well—until Zelenskyy started correcting Vance firstly, and Trump secondly. By Ukraine-splaining to his hosts, and by his gestures, tone, and interruptions, he made it clear that he assumed that Trump was just more of the same compliant, clueless moneybags Biden waxen effigy. And that was naïve for such a supposedly worldly leader."
VDH: (1-8 are even better)
" 10. March 2025 is not March 2022, after the heroic saving of Kyiv—but three years and 1.5 million dead and wounded later. Zelenskyy is no longer the international heartthrob with the glamorous entourage. He has postponed elections, outlawed opposition media and parties, suspended habeas corpus and walked out of negotiations when he had an even hand in Spring 2022 and apparently even now when he does not in Spring 2025.
Quo vadis, Volodymyr?"
Part of any deal should also include a list of American politicians who used Ukraine and US tax payer money laundering -- for personal family profits.
Leland nails it.
It is a reliable fact of human affairs, that when there is something it would be very useful to know, that it is not possible to know, there will be people who claim to have the ability to know that thing. This is why there are astrologers, and psychiatrists, and psychics, and "body-language experts".
Darren Stanton's Wikipedia page indicates he can also guess your weight, tell your fortune, and polish your knob.
VZ didn't leave. He got kicked out. Cruel neutrality.
So it has come to pass, the old "Heave Ho".
https://x.com/PapiTrumpo/status/1895562503230550018
Zelensky thinks he is an equal to Trump when he is not. He behaved as if he was the one calling the shots. Trump and Vance had to try to get him to see the reality that he is out of leverage. Zelensky has blinders on as to the dwindling amount of support for this stalemated war. If he can’t convey a path to victory, what’s the point of continuing it?
Well... if "experts say"... and WaPo "experts" at that...
"He felt he wasn’t getting his points across or wasn’t allowed to,..." No... he realized that the Logan Act traitors had underestimated Trump and Vance and he was going to lose.
Peachy:
After I heard that twerp Sen. Chris Murphy comment, I knew that VZ had been coached by the Dems. The Dems want to make Trump look bad. The Dems don't care how many die as a result of a continued war.
Leland:
In VDH's latest book (The End of Everything), he describes how some wiped out civilizations (Thebes and Constantinople) had a false belief that others would come to their rescue. They didn't. They had no reason to. Both were completely wiped out.
VZ needs to read VDH. Better yet, he needs to resign and take his stolen money to his mansion in Egypt. He's not very smart.
BTW, can Musk uncover this crook's net worth? I bet he's way richer than Joe and Hunter Biden.
Just like with the decision to campaign on behalf of Harris, Zelensky is being very poorly advised about US politics.
Remind me again why I should believe anything I read in the Washington Post.
‘body language expert’? God, that’s stupid….
"Part of any deal should also include a list of American politicians who used Ukraine and US tax payer money laundering -- for personal family profits."
This. 100%. I was expecting Trump to demand exactly that in private so he could then produce it publicly. The Biden family all got pardons anyway. But it should come out publicly.
The power imbalance that Zelensky should worry about is the one between him and Putin. That's the power imbalance with a body count.....That said, none of the parties involved looked very good in this contretemps. Still, given the circumstances, it would behoove Zelensky to suck up and suck it all up. If all this leads to a cease fire, then it's piffle. If it leads to the withdrawal of US aid, then Zelensky is the biggest fuck up since Zimmerman.
Dave Begley said...
" After I heard that twerp Sen. Chris Murphy comment, I knew that VZ had been coached by the Dems. The Dems want to make Trump look bad. The Dems don't care how many die as a result of a continued war."
He was coached by Susan Rice at the direction of Obama who, along with the rest of the Dem party, want another shot at impeaching Trump
I liked when Zelensky tried to hint to Trump that if he didn't fight Russia in Ukraine, Putin was going to cross the ocean and invade the US. Trump quickly told him that was none of his concern, and he was powerless to affect that outcome, regardless.
My only question is "Does Zelensky truly believe these arguments that he is making? Is he a complete puppet of the Maidan.. let's call them 'ultra-nationalists', or is he complicit in making up and pushing these lies?"
Zelensky was running his.mouth about what Putin, the personification of evil, for quite some time before Trump mentioned that this was not helpful and Vance said perhaps better done behind closed doors. Z did not take the hint, kept knocking Putin, then implied the US cared little for Ukraine security because of the ocean's protection. And we are off to the races! (All he needed to do was show up, sign the mineral deal, and eat lunch. But he could not manage that much.)
The UK and France came to the White House trying to get Trump, essentially, to sign a power of attorney for them to start a war on our behalf with Russia.
"You don't have to give Ukraine a security guarantee! Just give one to your oldest friends, England and France! Then we will sidle over to Russia's border and make sure that we get attacked, and after the attack we engineer happens? Well you will come in and save our bacon, right old buddy?" -Starmer and Macron
They are drinking their own kool aide thinking that Trump is an idiot who can be bribed with big pots of money to sell out America. That guy is gone now, Sir Robinette has gone away.
My advice to politicians and heads of state would be to never put yourself in the position of being lectured to and try to avoid lecturing. Don't let yourself be bullied and try to avoid bullying. Save the theatrics for behind-the-scenes confrontations and make your public appearances with foreign leaders anodyne and serene. Say your meeting was cordial and that progress was made, even if you were screaming at each other all the way through it.
But if we really want "transparency," I guess this was it.
What will happen if Europe puts "peacekeepers" in Ukraine is that, for example a Russian AWAC will get shot down, or something like it. The Western press will say it was a crash or a coup attempt by dissident Russians. The Russians will know damn well who did it and will respond, the West will claim it was a "false flag" that Russia did to itself in order to justify its "unprovoked attack" and the dogs of war are let loose.
The clearest photo of anxiety ever -- still cover photo with Zelensky having 4 rows of eye wrinkles:
https://san.com/cc/zelenskyy-leaves-wh-early-trump-says-he-can-come-back-when-ready-for-peace/
It's becoming clearer that the US democratic left, the international left/ globalist left - prefer endless war/ WWIII - to Trump putting a stop to the war.
Pride and ego.
From the article: ... it’s clear from Trump’s body language that he perceives Putin as a “fellow silverback.”
And vice versa, while neither of them considers Zelensky a silverback.
Macron, Merz, Starmer, Meloni, Zelensky, the whole crew need to understand that their fantasy of getting the US to pull their chestnuts out of the fire by sending our own sons to fight is a dead letter. The war is all but over, and Ukraine has lost, and Ukraine should have implemented one the three peace deals that it has already passed up, each of which was far more generous than anything that they are likely to get now that they have spent three years killing Russians, and pissing them off. Zelensky knows that the only possible way he can win this on his own terms is to drag the United States into it, and as Trump rightly put it, he is "gambling with world war three."
It's like "The Sum of All Fears" that movie from the '90s, where the Ukrainians try to avenge Hitler by getting Russia and the United States, the two powers who mainly defeated Hitler, int a mutually destruction, leaving the Ukrainian not-sees finally victorious.
Europe should have grown a pair back when Biden was making foolish and reckless promises to them about how great it would be to have not just Russian gas cheap, but Russian gold, Russian platinum, lithium, etc, etc, etc cheap to fuel a century of economic growth after they got Putin out of the way and split the Russian Federation into little, easily manageable and corruptible countries.
Macron made a little noise at the time that it was a stupid plan, but once France committed to it, it's too late to quit now without devastating economic consequences. Well those consequences are coming anyway, because defeating and collapsing Russia is not in the cards.
Not one 19 year old American life sacrificed for anything in Eastern Europe--or Western Europe for that matter.
As for Zelenskyy relying on minions of Team Obama for political advice on how to handle Trump--did Mr. Z notice the results of the the November election? Could it be that the architects of that Obama blunder aren't all that smart? Just a pro tip Mr. Z--look at election results and understand the meaning of them. You're the guy who left the meeting without getting what he wanted.
1. The meeting went off track at the start, the moment Zelensky gave Trump the folders with the photos of Russian war crimes. That gesture meant Zelensky either didn’t think Trump was aware of how bad Putin was or he wanted to shame Trump for not criticizing Putin more. What was Trump supposed to do? Say OMG, let’s nuke him? That was a bad move on Zelensky’s part. They were there to sign an agreement not continue negotiations.
2. Zelensky should have had an interpreter. He speaks English well but he doesn’t have an intuitive grasp of the nuances of the English language. When he said he would wear a costume when the war was over, it sounded like a slight. I don’t think it was. He simply chose the wrong word. This may have been a problem as well during the negotiation process that led to the meeting.
3. Zelensky doesn’t understand how dire Ukrainian’s position is. He wanted guarantees and the truth is Ukraine will have zero guarantees. Zero. If Putin decides to restart the war again in the future, Ukraine is on its own. Perhaps it’s a bit the fault of Rubio who was the liaison between the US and Ukraine. I don’t think he was as blunt as Trump. Ukraine has no options. Maybe American companies can provide a bit of a deterrent but they will hightail it out of there as soon as animosities resume. The best Ukraine can hope for is that it will outlive Putin.
4. I wish Trump had used the meeting to talk to the Ukrainian people through his conversation with Zelensky. But Zelensky’s attitude precluded that from happening. I think Trump realized Zelensky had been fed a lot of garbage by the opposition party and that made him angry - which is why he brought in a lot of extraneous issues. The Democrats wanted to hurt Trump with this meeting, not help Ukraine.
5. In an interview after the meeting Rubio said this agreement should have been signed days ago. He gave the impression there was no need for Zelensky to come to the White House. It was done as a courtesy. Bad mistake.
6. Scott Adams thinks they can have a redo. I’m not so sure. Optimally, Zelensky should resign and the agreement should be signed in Ukraine.
Zelensky's problem is that he somehow assumed the USA was 100% behind him, forever.
"The meeting went off track at the start, the moment Zelensky gave Trump the folders with the photos of Russian war crimes."
Yeah, presidents don't like to be propagandized like rubes. Trump knows that the war is bad, and he also knows that the Ukrainians have committed plenty of what will be called "war crimes" by the other side. The Russians are really hopping mad about some stuff the Ukrainians did to civilians in Kursk, BTW, and say that Bucca was in reality a Ukrainian atrocity, and claim to have the evidence to prove it, which is probably why the US vetoed Russia's request that the UN Security Council investigate it.
The only language that Zelensky is really fluent in is his native Russian language. He doesn't even speak Ukrainian that well, so that might be why he chooses English.
This contretemps hurt Trump only among those who value decorum over actual substance.
Please note Zelensky's idea of public diplomacy with your "allies".
https://x.com/AutismCapital/status/1895564283284787202
The microphone captured Zelenskyy calling JD Vance "Suka," Russian for "Bitch," during their argument.
BTW, just to remind Zelenskyy. Ronald Reagan managed to deal a blow to the much more powerful Soviet Union and destroy the Warsaw Pact despite having to do that across two oceans. One of the side effects of that was the creation of your independent state of Ukraine. FDR and the USA crossed two oceans in WWII to defeat two separate totalitarian states.
Your "two oceans" comment lacks historical perspective.
If Zelensky met with Dems in advance, whether in DC or before arriving, for their advice, he is a fool. That foolishness will cost Ukrainian lives. Trump gave a fair offer.
The United States doesn't have interest in the Black Sea, so doesn't care who controls Sevastopol in Crimea. Go talk to Turkiye for a security guarantee. The United States doesn't need Ukrainian grain or natural gas. Go talk to Germany for a security guarantee. Heck, most of Ukraine's grain is shipped to China. Go talk to China for a security guarantee.
Zelensky's real problem is none of those other countries care if Russia controls Crimea or if they get the grain and natural gas from Ukraine or Russia. They had trade deals with Russia before and they'll have trade deals with Russia in the future.
Trump asked Zelensky to give the US a stake in what happens in Ukraine. Zelensky refused to give them one.
The only thing left would be to start a war against Putin, because Putin is bad. NPR 2008 Debate: "Should America be the World's Policeman?" Foreign Policy 2014: "Obama Says U.S. Will No Longer Be the World’s Policeman"
2015, Putin invades and annexes Crimea.
Lots of ego, everywhere. Seriously, I watched the entire thing and i was surprised how full of themselves Trump and Vance were, in addition to Zelinskyy. Too bad that Trump couldn't have risen to the occasion and be the better man, more Presidential, which he was certainly not. And, if truth be told, Trumps lap dog, Vance, failed miserably to show any maturity befitting a "leader". ?He was rude, nasty and childish. Not at all our finest hour.
OldManRick, at least Reagan appeared to be "presidential. TRump and Vance failed miserably on that front.
victoria said...
“OldManRick, at least Reagan appeared to be "presidential. TRump and Vance failed miserably on that front.”
O please. Democrats thought Reagan was stupid, senile, or Hitler.
Par for the course.
For some people appearance is more important than substance. Better to appear Presidential than to act in the interests of the United Stats.
I was immensely proud of our President and Vice President. Finally, someone is running the shop who actually is looking after US interests.
Zelensky seriously misread the likelihood that he could bullshit Trump into providing security guarantees with US troops. Trump has no intention of getting into a shooting war with Russia over the Ukraine.
- Krumhorn
I'm thinking that the hoi polloi still haven't grasped the true nature of what has gone on. Last week was a very busy week at the White House. Macron and Starmer both paid a visit - why? Germany didn't, but that's probably because they've been in the middle of elections and don't have a leader in place, yet. And the EU is making a counter-offer on the rare minerals deal to Ukraine, although they probably lack the military heft to make security promises as meaningful.
I think Trump has been laying out his plan for the allies, and, as Rubio has said, things were progressing until Zelensky suddenly called for a White House meeting. And I wonder if, off to the side, somebody in DC, either from Obama or the Democrats or the I.C. side, gave a briefing to Zelensky to provoke a confrontation after requesting the meeting. It would not surprise me if the objective was to torpedo the deal, and it would surprise me even less if the objective's sole motivation was to try to make Trump look bad, even if it has the direct consequence of suffering for Ukraine.
That's the level of my cynicism right about now. The Progressive Left doesn't like the loser's slot, and they've been taking hard hits for a month with no signs of it letting up. 'Six ways from Sunday'. But there's a downside: Trump's in a position to find out about it, and worse, do something. It'll be an interesting week, coming up.
Zelensky has chutzpah. He's jewish. He probably believes all this nice-nice and wearing suits and ties is stupid and fake. He also knows he can be obnoxious and in the end it wont matter. Nobody cares about bad manners.
A signing ceremony is not where you get your point across. It's a public relations event. It's not a debate. Also, Zelenskyy has no clue about American public opinion, because if he did, he'd know it was really important to sell this deal.
And no shit, the mediator country has to be slightly more polite to Putin...why would that not be obvious to an actor?
Secondly this is not the peace treaty. This is a preliminary. The actual investment and mining may never occur. Its designed (by Ukraine!!!!) to get the USA to have a stake in a strategic sector of rare earths so we'd defend them like we do for Saudi Arabia, for example, or Panama.
We're not even to the peace plan part.
Why you decide this is the moment to do this is insane.
Ukraine needed to play along fairly gently with Trump's plan and have RUSSIA REJECT IT.
Then Trump is not happy with RUSSIA.
and if you get a deal, you start digging better defenses because its probably only a cease fire.
Exactly right, Harun.
Russia is very apprehensive about any ceasefire. With Ukraine agreed to ceasefire in principle, Trump would have hard work to do to make Russia accept it. Actually, good bet would be that Moscow doesn’t agree to ceasefire.
Zielinsky's biggest blunder was telling Trump that if the US doesn't deal with Putin in Ukraine, we will be feeling it later down the road implying Russia will move on US. This got Don's Irish up.
For me, one of the most telling comments was Trump ending by saying that the ‘conversation’ would make great television. How shallow is that?
Zelensky had succeeded in baiting VP Vance to show his true colors and infuriated Trump so much that he broke down and starting ranting about his close relationship with Putin and how they both had suffered with the Hunter Biden accusations and on and on. It truly was great TV, as Trump stupidly acknowledge.
So Kaki is going with the idea that getting dragged into a war of choice in Europe is a winner with Americans.
First Putin underestimated Zelensky and now Trump has underestimated Zelensky.
Trump needs a Ukrainian President that is prepared to sell out his country, and it turns out that Zelensky won't do it. And that is why Trump is so livid. Trump has met a man in Zelensky that he thinks should kiss his @ss But he won't.
How is a cease fire not in the best interest of Ukraine? It's not like they're on a tear and driving the Russians before them. They're not going to lose momentum.
They could use the time to rest, regroup, re-arm, etc, even if the peace talks ultimately break down.
We need to find out from the Ukraine how much U.S. aid money went to Biden and family. Perhaps Zelensky doesn’t want to disclose this information.
Both Trump and Putin are aligned on Europe.
They oppose a strong EU. They support AfD/reform/national rally/Orban/patriots and expect it’s just a matter of time before both turn in their favor.
Ending support for Ukraine helps speed this process, unless the Europeans are able to stand up without the US. For now, not a strong bet.
Its fun reading the contradictory mind-numbingly stupid talking points vomited up by the Reverse Cramer /Harry Sisson of Althouse blog, LLR-democratical Rich!
You can tell the New Soviet Democraticals have no clue whatsoever which BS narratives to use to move the political needle nor which of their loser "leaders" to push out front to lead the chanting!
RCOcean… well zelinsky is a jew which really explains all the corruption and everything.
Yikes. I mean he writes something that sounds like a normal person could have written it “and don’t forget he’s a JOOOOOO” and it’s like ok so you’re totally irrational and probably a psycho. Point noted why would someone even write that?
Ukraine is lost. Zelenskyy has lost. There are non-military options to deter Russia/putin, that Zelenskyy rejected. Now, how does Trump give Putin a win without completely annexing Ukraine?
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