From "What is Turo? Car rental app was used in New Orleans, Vegas incidents/The peer-to-peer car-sharing company said it is 'devastated' and working with law enforcement" (WaPo).
Insurance detail: "Customers get liability insurance when they book on Turo, which covers property damage or physical harm to another person if the driver is responsible...."
Both men chose a truck, but I hadn't noticed until now that the New Orleans terrorist, like the Las Vegas terrorist/"terrorist," chose an electric truck. That isn't an odd choice for someone seeking to cause maximum damage. The electric truck is much heavier. A gas F-150 weighs 4,021 to 5,540 pounds. An F-150 Lightning weighs between 6,015 to 6,893 pounds. That's an extra ton.
(I wondered whether gasoline, like the battery, adds much weight. The weight of the gasoline in a full tank of an F-150 is 139.68 pounds or 218.63 pounds, depending on whether you have the 23 gallon tank or the 36.)
An electric vehicle may have been chosen because of the potential for fire — not that the EV is more likely to catch fire, but the fire is more difficult to extinguish:
IN THE COMMENTS: Two additional features of the electric truck: 1. It is quieter, giving less warning to the victims to clear out of its way, and 2. It accelerates faster, especially from 0. Thanks to Breezy and Narayanan for immediately raising these points.
Posts
73 comments:
EVs are a lot quieter than ICEs…. People couldn’t hear it coming.
Quicker acceleration too
"a typical gas F-150 might take around 6 seconds to reach 60 mph while the Lightning can do it in as little as 4 seconds depending on the configuration" (AI Overview)
The conspiracy minded of us would also think maybe intentional breadcrumbs by the Vegas man. If I wanted to pick a vehicle that would create the most data about where I'd been, where I'd stopped and for how long, my driving habits, maybe video or audio recordings, etc., I'd pick a Cybertruck. And if I wanted to maximize the chances of that info getting in the right hands and more hands, I'd want Musk to have it. Better than trusting the NY Times or Washington Post, and Musk has better connections. From what I've heard, the man was looking for high-level attention on claimed national security violations.
That said, I have no idea if the Vegas man looked to rent a Cybertruck or the make/model of truck he ended up driving was random based upon availability.
We've used Turo and had great experiences. Usually the cars offered are nicer and newer. It's possible both cars were electric because they're shiny.
I assume that regular rental cars have GPS systems that send location details back to the rental company. It makes sense that someone who wants to do something sketchy would rent a car through this "peer to peer" app, since people's personal vehicles are less likely to have tracking features (or GPS that's monitored by anyone but the driver).
He certainly didn't rent that truck because it's quiet, or very fast from 0 to 60. As he parked it before it exploded. The interesting bit of data I'd like to know is whether auto-drive was engaged moving this vehicle from one place to another. This particular death looks very, very suspicious.
All major car rental agencies require that you rent their vehicles with a credit card. You cannot use a debit card. Turo doesn't have this requirement. Lots of people don't use credit cards for a variety of reasons unrelated to wealth.
Elon Musk and Tesla engineers know if it was in auto drive or not. Therefore dipso flaco, your lord and Savior's lord and Savior would have to be in on the conspiracy.
Amazing how a dumbass terrorist is so brilliant in so many subtle ways.
"He certainly didn't rent that truck because it's quiet, or very fast from 0 to 60. As he parked it before it exploded."
We're talking about the Ford F-150 Lightning. The "He" is the murderer in New Orleans.
Please catch up before telling other people that they are wrong.
The New Orleans guy was hoping to get some Luigi Love by doing his mass murder with an electric vehicle.
"Both men chose a truck, but I hadn't noticed until now that the New Orleans terrorist, like the Las Vegas terrorist/"terrorist," chose an electric truck."
You mentioned two incidents. I was commenting about the Las Vegas "terrorist." One may have chosen a truck due to its weight, speed, etc. The other clearly did not.
And I never said anything about anybody being "wrong."
Sheesh.
I found the the WSJ exposition interesting, but it did not answer the question why EV fires are harder to extinguish. The reasons given were energy stored in batteries and toxic chemicals. The two reasons apply to gasoline as well.
Any loser can run people down with a truck but it takes a real man to use a MINI Cooper.
1) you implied Althouse was wrong and 2) you didn't specify you were commenting on the Vegas Cyber truck bomber. This justifies (in her mind, not mine) Ann's overreacting hypersensitive response to a moronic conspiracy agenda hate filled commenter being unclear.
"Do you get me, sweetheart?"
"It's not a subtle point you're making"
Althouse, we are talking about both. But Dixus was responding to Another old lawyer's comment about the LV guy's use of the Cybertruck. You might want to catch up before scolding a commenter.
The biggest issue with the Ford F-150 Lightning is would it actually not break down before the deed was done.
Ask chatgpt
Europe has pedestrian safety standards for vehicles, one reason cars look so boring. Recent American pickups are very blocky in the front, so people hit would not be given a glancing blow or tossed in the air.
OT. Have you been watching Landman on Paramount Plus? If so, what do you think?
"You mentioned two incidents. I was commenting about...."
This post is about the surprising fact that the vehicle in New Orleans was an electric truck. Everyone already knew that the LV vehicle was a Cybertruck.
Try thinking before parachuting in and speaking to other people as if they are wrong.
You are on the verge of being sidelined as a troll. You need to put effort into your posts, especially if you'd like the freedom to be insolent.
Your response to me just now, after I pushed you back, should have been respectful and appreciative of this forum, not defensive bullshit.
Really, you were put in the troll category before and I used to delete all your posts. Unless you change, you will end up back there again. You do not value this forum enough to be allowed to mess it up the way you do.
The rearranging of comments is a bother. Makes you wonder why companies so often make their products worse.
You may not realize that there are a lot of readers who don't comment because they are put off by the jackassery going on in here. Those of you who put no thought into who you are excluding, who imagine you are providing the interest and entertainment — you are not seeing the feedback I get from good readers who say they wish they could comment but don't want to expose themselves to the kind of thing that is going on here. I want the broader group to come in. The number of readers who don't comment is at least 10 times the size of the number who do.
Those of you who I am pushing back could show your good faith by following this rule: Speak to the substance of the issues under discussion rather than to any person. Don't go back and forth with another commenter.
And think about whether you comment makes good reading for other people (rather than whether you're excited by yourself).
"The rearranging of comments is a bother...."
I — and I presume many others — see the comments in chronological order.
I only see the "reply" effect at work if I push the button to get to a comment window.
I would advise everyone to avoid using the "reply" function. Just comment in the normal way (and if you are replying to someone, quote them (or name them), the way I do.
I would remove the reply function if I could. Please don't use it.
Much heavier too, making its effects on the targeted crowd more pronounced, since it will plow further, hit harder......The Lightning was heavily damaged in its collision with the construction lift, and could easily have caught fire, adding yet another dimension - as EV fires are highly toxic because of the heavy metals, esp. the cobalt. It's a long term effect and an expensive Tyvek-suit cleanup.
I think many people were surprised that the New Orleans F-150 was electric. Ford used to make a souped-up version of the F-150, called the SVT Lightning. It had a more powerful engine than the usual F-150 and some sporty body modifications.
Ford has been awful about managing their branding--case in point, their Mustang Mach-E. It looks vaguely like a Mustang, but more like an SUV.
It seems like the LV guy was just trying to get maximum attention. If he’d shot himself in his back yard, no one would know his name. He may have known the blast would go straight up.
It’s completely outstanding television!
- Krumhorn
"Makes you wonder why companies so often make their products worse."
I've been using Blogger for 21 years, and it's almost exactly the same as it was when I started. I don't know why they changed one damned thing and changed it to add a function that doesn't work.
How about giving me the power to block trolls?
And why can't it give me the one obvious function I need: the power to block a commenter?
Insurance detail: "Customers get liability insurance when they book on Turo, which covers property damage or physical harm to another person if the driver is responsible...."
Just thinking: wouldn't lease-term liability insurance for the renter/driver introduce a high degree of moral hazard and adverse selection?
Exclusions/limitations must apply?
Ann your level of attention to the nature and tone of the comments is very much appreciated, including by those of us who do comment occasionally instead of repeatedly and self-reflexively. You also, clearly use a very long leash for people to still feel free to offer a wide range of views. This combination, along with your eclectic interests and sharp intellect, makes your blog unique. Thank you.
My first thought was the quick acceleration. Both Ford and Tesla build in noise to keep the trucks from being too quiet.
I've wondered why some of the people who clutter this board are tolerated, now I know it's out of your hands. I thought you were being quite tolerant to demonstrate your commitment to free speech. I am on some message boards, sports related, where I have access to the ignore function which allows me to see certain people have posted but I don't have to endure their posts unless someone quotes them. I do find it puzzling that, in the interest of civility if nothing else, Blogger wouldn't have found a way to allow the owner/administrator of a blog to control who is allowed to post. Have you complained to them? Filled their suggestion box (assuming they have one or a similar feature)?
"Just thinking: wouldn't lease-term liability insurance for the renter/driver introduce a high degree of moral hazard and adverse selection?"
The driver is still responsible. It's just that a victim of the driver can recover from the company's insurance (and, I would presume, from the owner of the car, whose insurance company might refuse to pay).
I didn't copy the whole paragraph, so here's the extra info you need: "Customers get liability insurance when they book on Turo, which covers property damage or physical harm to another person if the driver is responsible. Drivers can pay for protection plans, which limit their cost for damage to the vehicle they’re driving. But Turo warns that if anyone misuses a vehicle, they will be “fully financially responsible” for claims, loss or damage — and the protection plan they bought could be voided."
Thanks, planetgeo
"Have you complained to them? Filled their suggestion box (assuming they have one or a similar feature)?"
The idea of talking to Google seems absurd, but many years ago a couple of executives there reached out to me when I had an issue with Blogger. The issue was that the backup function wouldn't work. They put a lot of effort into trying to get it to work for me but ultimately informed me that because my blog was so large, the backup took so long that it was perceived as hanging up and it was cut off. That was probably more than 15 years ago. For a while, I actually could talk to real people.
My blog is one of the most prominent Blogger blogs, maybe the most prominent. There should be someone there who notices me. Their AI should notice me. Hey, there, you Blogger people: Please give me a tool that lets me block trolls from commenting.
the surprising thing, is that they Still Even Have blogger..
It can't make them much money (or data).
Seems likely that that one of these days, they'll just shut it down
Here's an odd connection that might further the PTSD suggestion.
https://www.westernjournal.com/cybertruck-bomber-competed-reality-tv-show/
"Both men chose a truck, but I hadn't noticed until now that the New Orleans terrorist, like the Las Vegas terrorist/"terrorist," chose an electric truck.
Did the NYTimes or WaPoo not mention that fact prominently. I knew it was an electric vehicle immediately since it was prominently reported by whereever it was I first read about it.
Maynard said...
"My first thought was the quick acceleration. Both Ford and Tesla build in noise to keep the trucks from being too quiet."
Actually it is a federal requirement that all electric and hybrid electric vehicles make a minimum amount of noise based on the size of the vehicle. Reference 49 CFR 571.141
Livelsberger almost surely chose the Tesla for the same reason he chose the Trump property- because of who owned them- it was part of whatever statement he was trying to make. The New Orleans terrorist probably had four considerations- the weight of the vehicle, its acceleration, the lower sound generated, and that it might be harder to disable with bullets. I might have chosen the exact same vehicle were I going to do what he did.
Neither of them seemed to be planning to survive, so why not rent something that was big enough, and with features to do the most harm, but still be able to maneuver? A white panel truck with explosives inside might be noticed, because isn’t that what we expect from the best-remembered car bomb?
I wonder why the New Orleans killer didn’t strike at midnight. Maybe police presence was higher then, and he couldn’t drive in. Maybe he realized, gruesomely, that it would be harder to get very far through a dense crowd at high speed and figured he could kill more people if the streets were less crowded.
Would someone with the military skills of the Las Vegas attacker know that the truck he rented would make a spectacle but contain the blast? Or was he hoping the truck itself would add to the carnage?
Since they wanted a spectacle, it feels uncomfortable to speculate about them too much. But in the absence of trust for the heads of the federal agencies that are supposed to tell us all they know and the media that is supposed to report it, we can only speculate.
Got it.
"I am on some message boards, sports related, where I have access to the ignore function which allows me to see certain people have posted but I don't have to endure their posts unless someone quotes them."
There is an extension for Chrome that provides this ability- Blog Comment Killfile.
Provides a killfile for certain blogs.
The intention of this script is to hide the comments of commentors you, the reader, do not wish to hear from. In that respect, it's like an old usenet killfile. It does not affect what other visitors to the site will see.
This is not a tool meant for handling spam, only for an individual comment reader to avoid having to see comments they don't wish to see.
When the script works for a given blog, comments will have a [hush] link near the commentor's name. (visible only on mouseover!) Clicking on that will hide comments from that person from then on.
It works here if you click the link that shows posts in chronological order. It doesn't work if posts are displayed with the "Reply" option, but you can click the "^" after the username to collapse that comment.
Here is the U.N. report one the referenced air strikes killing large numbers of civilians, which apparently left the Las Vegas bomber racked with guilt.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/10/un-report-find-alleged-drug-facilities-were-not-lawful-targets-airtrikes
ChatGPT knows about Althouse. I know this because, as an experiment, I ran my limerick through it for analysis, to see if Chat would understand it. It inferred, from the fact that I called this blog "eponymous," and hosted by a woman, that it was about one of two blogs, one being this one, and the other it suggested was "Malkin."
So, exclusions/limitations do apply, in order to avoid moral hazard and adverse selection on the part of the renter/driver.
But Turo warns that if anyone misuses a vehicle, they will be “fully financially responsible” for claims, loss or damage — and the protection plan they bought could be voided."
Maybe he just didn't want to kill more people, so he went with a spectacular but non deadly attack.
At Trump, at some point they deployed a blanket. I watched them undeploying (I.e. folding it back up as they removed it) the blanket. They looked very professional at it, suggesting a bit of practice. But before that, the hotel has fire sprinklers in the ceiling over that drive through that went off. Apparently, at Trump in particular, but I suspect in the big hotels across town, recycled or gray water is apparently used for built in fire sprinkler systems. I was warned a year ago about this by hotel security - it makes a huge mess when it goes off. And that’s what happened - the ceiling is going to need extensive repair work where the sprinklers are/were. Turns out, it was the only visible damage to the hotel despite the fiery explosion. Willie even had the brass all polished and windows cleaned. By Friday, the hotel was visually back to normal - as long as you didn’t look up in the vehicle drive through.
Wince: I thought this was normal language for any insurance policy. Your family doesn’t get life insurance if you commit suicide. You don’t get home insurance coverage if you intentionally burn down your own house. You don’t get auto coverage for any kind of rental, Turo or Enterprise, if you use the car to commit a crime. I guess the Air B&B owner has to sue Air B&B since the dead terrorist damaged or destroyed their property.
"defensive bullshit" = internet standard M/O when wrong.
Some of these commenters are Leftists who see "althouse" as "Rightwing" and wish to subvert and destroy it. They think they're clever - and they aint.
The legal aspects are going to be interesting, at least to some of the attorneys here. In these cases, it would seem that the case in negligence would be against the owners of the vehicles. They would be defended and reimbursed to the limits of their insurance coverage. But then the car owners and insurance companies could sue the car rental company, for, say, negligent entrustment, and possibly breach of contract - in any case, alleging that the car rental company didn’t vet renters well enough. I think that it might be possible that the rental contract between the owner and the rental company might limit their damages.
I am assuming all along that damages are going to well exceed the vehicle insurance that the drivers had with either the rental company or with their own insurance companies. It’s the excess that will be interesting. Either or both of the car owners could possibly face liability in the $millions$. I know the guy here in Las Vegas, whom I would want litigating this case - except that he is mostly retired now, and his kids have the firm.
Of course, professional lawyers like David Begley, here can set me straight if I have gone astray here.
The Vegas FD used a "blanket" to smother the fire. Water is a slow, inefficient way to extinguish a lithium battery fire. How many smaller cities have these available? Not many, I'd wager.
Good point. At FedEx, we developed a pallet cover that effectively suppresses a cargo fire, even lithium if I remember correctly. Whenever I saw lithium on the manifest, I cringed. Finding yourself at FL350 over the Pacific, hundreds of miles from a suitable runway and getting a smoke detection warning was a scenario that played out in my head a lot. Water? Hah! And the heat from a lithium fire can destroy concrete. Smothering it is probably the best option.
Looking at videos, I'm not sure the battery ever ignited.
It’s so tempting to use the reply feature. My New Year’s resolution - I will not use it. (I have a pretty good record of keeping my resolutions - mainly because I stick to pretty simple ones.)
Landman. It's pretty good except when he gets preachy. Point of fact. The crews use non-sprking tools to avoid the results seen on the pump jack. But that doesn't make for good TV.
Nah. I don't give him props for being that smart.
If I remember correctly. Water is the way to get a lithium fire to start.
JSevers, watch StacheD on youtube. You will learn about thermal runaway and such. Lithium batteries can burn without oxygen, even underwater.
P = momentum. M = mass. V = velocity. P=M*V.
Electric vehicles with their heavy batteries have lots more momentum than a similar size gasoline vehicle.
That's what I'm expecting. I suppose somebody might have reported it but what is the percentage of EVs listed on Turo vs regular vehicles?
Like I said in another thread, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people who bought one of those and experienced buyer's remorse decide that it's better to get some cash from the EV craze that way than have an expensive lawn ornament.
I've never had to investigate because my blogging is an extended monologue but what happens if a comment is marked 'spam'?
This is correct.
"I've never had to investigate because my blogging is an extended monologue but what happens if a comment is marked 'spam'?"
I regularly go to the spam page and find the things that don't belong there and publish them. It's possible that I miss some, but I'm only leaving in spam the people who I would block if there were such a function and the actual commercial spam.
I noticed something interesting yesterday - the sprinklers right above where the truck was, when it blew up, did not go off. Just the ones behind and to the left (towards the center of the drive through entryway).
EV fires are difficult to extinguish; firehoses are useless. Electric bike-scooter-skateboard batteries are likewise a fire hazard, those fires also difficult to extinguish, can cause quick spread to remainder of shed, garage, and/or house. NYT has covered this issue many times.
Yet, it was very obvious that the sprinkler system at Trump went off. The water damage on the ceiling of the drive through entry is very visible. Quite possibly though, the blanket deployed by the FD may have protected the truck’s batteries from the water. I know that the Trump hotel has excellent video of what happened. The FD should buy the video of their fire fighters deploying the blanket in their advertising. Or maybe Trump should just give it to them as a public service. Maybe start the video with the video from within of the lobby of the truck all of a sudden exploding. Or the view from across the street. Then cut to FD arriving, maybe radio traffic of them recognizing that it was an EV, them unfolding the (large) blanket, and a team (my guess would be maybe six) firefighters, picking it up, and at a trot, deploying it over the truck.
Interestingly, I am pretty sure I saw the fire trucks arriving. We face NNW (“Mountain” not “Strip” view). And I remember hearing sirens, looking out and down, and watching a couple of fire trucks heading down Industrial (which turns into Sammy Davis Jr at Fashion Show, where the hotel is), crossing under DI (Desert Inn) right below me, and maybe turning left onto Fashion Show Drive (that’s the name of the mall across from the hotel). Didn’t think anything of it until later (the hotel is well constructed). Then, not that much after that I tried going downstairs, to be sent back up. Didn’t put it all together until later.
In any case, the thought that started this ramble is that, as I understand it, pure H2O doesn’t conduct electricity that well. It’s the impurities in the water that causes it to do so. At least in the Trump hotel, and I assume in the big hotels across town recycled, or otherwise dirty, water is used in their sprinkler systems. In a perfect world, I would think that purified water would be a lot better for fire suppression, esp of EV fires (which, interestingly apparently did not occur there). But the hotel was built maybe 15 years ago, before the EV craze. And probably more importantly, Las Vegas is in a desert, and gets most of its water from the over-allocated Colorado River (which no longer makes it to the ocean as a result).
I don’t think that it did. According to Musk, according to their telemetry data, the battery was fine until the explosion. Clark County FD station 12 is 0.3 miles from the hotel, up Sammy Davis, Jr/Industrial. Left out of the station, left at the 2nd light, and they were there. Since it was New Years Day, I am pretty sure they used the proper lane (I am pretty sure I saw the FD trucks headed down Industrial), but it’s a straight shot using the wrong one, esp if they control the light at Fashion Show Drive (pretty sure that they do) (forcing a northbound red light), where they turned left. In short, they can respond to emergencies at the Trump hotel faster than almost anywhere in the metro area. Seen it with 911 calls. They no doubt rolled up, saw that it was the most distinctive EV on the market, pulled their blanket, and had it covered very quickly.
Looking NW from my window here, I can see the end of the driveway for CCFD Station#12. The station itself is hidden behind a big Resorts World parking garage. Their response time there is probably comparable - left from the station, left at first light, and left into the property, but is located a bit further east. Response time to Circus Circus is probably comparable too. It’s further away, but it’s two right turns, and northbound traffic north of the station is rarely bad.
Clark County FD (station 0.3 miles away) deployed a big black blanket over the vehicle. 911 response time is usually sub 5 minutes. No doubt, they recognized the truck as the most distinctive EV on the market, and had their blanket deployed almost immediately. It was big enough to easily cover the entire vehicle.
Ah, so 'spam' can eliminate a particular comment but not the commenter who made it: thank you!
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