Let's check in, here.
"The people call Donald J. Trump" and "Trump plods to the witness stand."Questioned by Kevin Wallace, a lawyer for the attorney general, Trump answers "in monosyllables."
The NYT writer says Trump "took the bait" when he answered a question about the legal trust that holds some of his assets: "You and about every other Democrat, district attorney, A.G., and U.S. attorneys, etcetera, were coming after me from 15 different sides, all Democrats, all Trump haters." I note the use of freewheeling language in "15 different sides." That's not monosyllabic. He's dabbling in hyperbole.
The NYT writer observes that Trump "is not heeding the judge’s instructions to answer questions briefly" after Trump interrupts Wallace to give what the judge calls "an essay on brand value.”
So much for monosyllables. The judge "is asking [Trump] repeatedly to answer yes or no questions simply." The judge asks Trump's lawyer to "control [his] client" and chides "This is not a political rally."
"Mr. Trump is enjoying himself on the stand, using it as an opportunity to teach the attorney general’s lawyer about real estate and real estate terms. But that appears to be backfiring." Appears... presumably because the judge, the finder of fact, is understood to be antagonistic to Trump. But on a larger scale, Trump is speaking to the electorate.
"Trump says, from the witness stand, 'This is a very unfair trial. Very very. And I hope the public is watching.'"
"Justice Engoron finally loses patience and breaks in as Trump is calling Aberdeen, Scotland, where he has a golf club, the oil capital of Europe. 'Irrelevant, irrelevant. Answer the question'.... At times, the late morning testimony has felt like travel brochure for Trump properties. When it happens, people around me sitting in the courtroom chuckle." Oh! He's winning over the room.
"And finally, the judge explains why he hasn’t been interrupting since the break: He is following Wallace’s lead, he says, and Wallace seems to be fine with Trump’s rambling. As we’ve noted, that rambling is helping the attorney general."
"'You believed this political hack back there and that’s unfortunate,' Trump says to the judge of [Letitia] James."
Enough for now.
Posts
102 comments:
Monosyllables. Yes No I Don't Know I Don't Recall. All time tested witness preparation instructions. So what? Is that all the writer's got?
[Insert Tim Taylor grunts where applicable]
Better to plod than to shuffle.
Judge Engomoron is losing his marbles. Just a fucking clown show…
That judge was preening before the trial hoping to show his best side to the TV.
Another example of Trump making use of his enemies tactics.
There is no way this could backfire on Trump- the judge's decision in this case was known before the case even began, so nothing Trump says here will change the outcome- and, yes, he is speaking to the public here, not the judge and not the AG's office.
As any half assed lawyer knows, including Trump's, that the inability of their client to keep his trap shut only opens the client on cross or redirect to lying under oath charges. OTOH if all Trump is trying to do is throw shit on the wall, it would be hard to prove he ever said anything material to the case.
I hate what the corrupt left are doing to Trump. The corrupt left are acting like Stalinists. I agree Trump should be defiant. Why not? The whole thing is a Stalinist shit show.
That said... "very very" - ? who says "very very" other than a little kid.
Mr. Trump is enjoying himself on the stand, using it as an opportunity to teach the attorney general’s lawyer about real estate and real estate terms. But that appears to be backfiring.
The kangaroos running this trial lost all credibility at 'objective valuation methods'. Someone has to be quite partisan to be witnessing a backfire...
...of course none of this matters except the 'W' in the leftie column which, when paired with the win in that trial at the height of election season early next summer will fill cable television with Democrat somber glee while they scrub Trump from the ballot in the key states...
The left has missed that Trump above all has a sense of humor.
Drama its just about how much the fraudulent trump organization will have to pay. All the rest just show for the MAGA base.
Now the judge is warning: "Please, just answer the question. No speeches."
More calls for ceasefire by those who started the hostilities.
"Drama its just about how much the fraudulent trump organization will have to pay. All the rest just show for the MAGA base."
I hate to be the bearer of bad news DinkyDick- the Trump organization will end up paying nothing once the judge's decision is thrown out because of all the illegal decisions he and the AG have made here. It might take 5 years and a federal court to do so, but this coming decision is 100% sure to be overturned.
If the location of his Scottish golf club is near a big oil center, that's certain relevant.
People with money play golf.
God help the Democrats if they ever have a Republican opponent that lives up to their descriptions.
Darrell Brooks had a fairer trial than Trump's getting.
The Judge has already decided, so isn't this just about the appeal?
Give 'em hell Trump!
As a former President, now leading in the polls, Trump is in a unique situation to call bullshit.
This trial is all bullshit. Don't give and inch. The crooked biased judge already knows how he is going to rule, and we all know it is already going to appeal.
Of course if Trump were President again he wouldn't be this hyperbolic and theatrical and antagonistic and conspiratorial. Oh, no, all this is just for the courtroom. In the Oval Office he'd be wise and calm and thoughtful. Or not.
"It's a tale told by an idiot full of sound and fury signifying nothing."
From Shakespeare but I always think of Faulkner. Trump could be a character in a Faulkner novel.
So Dink, may be you can explain to us how an organization can be "fraudulent"?
Or could it be you're using words without any idea of their legal meaning or significance?
He plodded. Is the writer sure it wasnt a trudge or a lumber? Perhaps he should have skipped, sashayed, or gamboled. A confident man would have giddy-upped, no? But he made it without tripping, in such contrast to his prospective opponent.
'No, I'm not here to hear what he has to say. I'm here to hear him answer questions,' the judge [Arthur Engoron] said.
The dumbshit really said that. Trump is getting under Engoron's skin, not the other way around. The outcome is already determined. Why capitulate to this asshole?
How can you hear him answer questions if you refuse to hear what he has to say? Not only is this NY Judge corrupt...he's moron...and quite ugly. Arthur Engeron personifies NYC.
Excuse me.
There are three standard techniques for real estate valuation: comparables, income, and replacement value. With each technique, one can estimate a lower, median, and upper value. Therefore, nine outputs from a three-method analysis. Most likely, the real value — a credible value — is within that space. But the standard-derived values are a rebuttable presumption; additional values can be calculated and presented with supporting evidence showing why these uniqueness drivers are relevant.
Banks in particular have credit departments and these organizations evaluate customer-submitted financial statements and supporting information every day. What did the banks and other financial institutions conclude about the Trump Organization's submitted financial information?
The central question is just who lost money and where. Where was the harm? And why have they not filed suit against TO already?
This whole case — which is civil — may ultimately be simpler than it looks. One has to get from the submitted financial information to some sort of measurable harm.
In both New York cases there seems to be the possibility of prosecutorial overreach that is not present in the Georgia and the federal cases. If so, the New York trials will cloud the much clearer lessons the public should draw from all the Trump trials.
Is there bad judgment in New York? That might ultimately be the issue that will get decided.
I don't get how supposedly nobody had "standing" to sue over election fraud. But the government can haul any citizen into court over the flimsiest fraud allegations.
Something is amis there.
I, for one, look forward to the Times describing Trump in the tumbrel on the way to the guillotine. Or will it be an Auto de Fe? Or a simple noose, as sufficed for the likes of Nazi war criminals, Saddam Hussein, and murderous common criminals? I'm sure whatever the courts decide, the Times will be memorable in its description. Almost as if the Times writers wanted that punishment all along, no matter the facts.
Its the same people who notice every minute physical detail of Putin yet call Ice cream Joe robust and focused.
Scotland you say? Macbeth was from Scotland.
Democratic madness continues as they endlessly try to undo 2016. Many of them will die without recovering. Their broken egos followed their broken understanding of how the world works.
Tag: "Out, out damned spot."
No matter how the case turns out, Trump makes the most from it.
Even if the biased judge finds against him, Trump could probably get fines reduced on appeal. And if Trump wins the election, he gets it all back and more.
And another thing... when it's all set and done, maybe somebody will ask how two black women DA's ended up pursuing cases nobody else would take.
It's not like there is a Mari Condo precedent of presidential candidates getting hauled into court.
He plods. You walk. I stride.
The AG doesn't understand that her challenge is not to convince a judge or jury or even other NY Democrats that Trump is guilty to but to convince Republicans and the public at large that this isn't some kind show trial....The pubic understood that Nixon and Agnew did something wrong, and even most Republicans were okay with their dismissal from office....To date all of the charges against Trump seem blatantly politically motivated and not egregious or even factual.....I think Trump is a horn dog, but I don't think he rapes random strangers in dressing rooms. (The rape charge might be true of Clinton though.) The judgement against Trump speaks more to the bias of the jurors and the NY justice system than to his guilt....The charges against Trump in this case are hard to understand. Is he the only real estate developer in NY who used such tactics? Why are the charges being brought at this late date? Why not over the course of his career. This wasn't a new thing.....I'm pretty sure that Al Sharpton committed some crimes during his career, but the powers that be (ie Democrats) went ixnay on them because they didn't want to offend his constituency. Why don't they have the same regard for the feelings of Trump's constituents? Do they really want 48% or more of the American public think that they're biased hacks?
From Shakespeare but I always think of Faulkner
Maybe because you are literate enough to know Faulkner wrote a novel, The Sound and the Fury?
I was unaware Aberdeen, Scotland was in Leticia James' jurisdiction. Huh. I learn such interesting things here.
I suspect the judge, who has declared himself an expert on real estate, does not enjoy being explained his shortcomings in expertise.
William 12:13
###
I get the impression that Trump has already been found guilty by the judge (and, of course, others).
So let's cut to the chase. Is Trump disqualified from being a presidential nominee?
"He plodded. Is the writer sure it wasnt a trudge or a lumber? Perhaps he should have skipped, sashayed, or gamboled. A confident man would have giddy-upped, no?"
Too bad he didn't gavotte. While wearing an apricot scarf.
Someone needs to remind Trump: This isn't one of your fan-based rallies. This is a trial...and you're just another defendant.
Lem FTW: "It's not like there is a Mari Condo precedent of presidential candidates getting hauled into court."
Last week, I read some informative coverage of the Trump fraud trial. It was not clear to me how overstating the value of one's property to a bank amounted to fraud. (Banks don't take your word for said value). The State's expert witness says it's because the higher the value of the collateral, the lower the interest rate on the loan. If the property was shown at it's "true" value, the rate would have been higher. Therefore, the bank(s) was deprived of many millions of dollars of potential interest income.
My favorite quote from the judge: "I decided these were ill-gotten, (gains)" the Judge Engoron replied.
I'm still not clear how the State of NY was damaged by these events.
Drama its just about how much the fraudulent trump organization will have to pay.
A fraudulent organization in which no victim of fraud can be identified.
Does that judge hand upside down in his closet after the sun goes up?
Gusty Winds said...
'No, I'm not here to hear what he has to say. I'm here to hear him answer questions,' the judge [Arthur Engoron] said.
Good catch Gusty. yes, It's very nice of "judge" Engoron to work so hard to establish his bias
William said...
The AG doesn't understand that her challenge is not to convince a judge or jury or even other NY Democrats that Trump is guilty to but to convince Republicans and the public at large that this isn't some kind show trial.
Bingo. And they're failing, utterly.
I no longer like Trump. if he died of a heart attack tomorrow I'd be happy.
but even I think this is a complete kangaroo garbage
Tomcc said...
Last week, I read some informative coverage of the Trump fraud trial. It was not clear to me how overstating the value of one's property to a bank amounted to fraud. (Banks don't take your word for said value). The State's expert witness says it's because the higher the value of the collateral, the lower the interest rate on the loan. If the property was shown at its "true" value, the rate would have been higher. Therefore, the bank(s) was deprived of many millions of dollars of potential interest income.
Assuming that's true, it would follow that the bank people had a fiduciary interest in determining the correct value for the Trump property, and thus the correct interest rates for the loans.
So now we have some judge pulling numbers out of his backside, insisting that he's better qualified to decide the true value of those properties than were teh bank people whose sole job it was to figure that out.
And people claim that Trump is the arrogant buffoon?
mikee said...
I, for one, look forward to the Times describing Trump in the tumbrel on the way to the guillotine. Or will it be an Auto de Fe? Or a simple noose, as sufficed for the likes of Nazi war criminals, Saddam Hussein, and murderous common criminals? I'm sure whatever the courts decide, the Times will be memorable in its description. Almost as if the Times writers wanted that punishment all along, no matter the facts.
***********
The Times and the other Trump haters won't be happy unless he gets the Braveheart treatment.
Followed by "Rolling him down a Hill in an Iron Maiden" treatment.
Followed by the "Hundred Cuts" treatment.
Followed by the "Flayed Alive" treatment, even if he's finally dead.
Just to make their point.
So let's cut to the chase. Is Trump disqualified from being a presidential nominee?
-----
No. This is entirely about hurting and humiliating him. Even if it gets overturned on appeal, the moron AG will have gotten her few minutes of fame and ride it to higher office.
The judge is Jimmy Savile's doppleganger.
I wonder what his hobbies are.
"I no longer like Trump. if he died of a heart attack tomorrow I'd be happy."
You're a class act, Greg.
The banks and IRS both got it wrong.
how two black women DA's ended up pursuing cases nobody else would take.
Systemic diversity is their defense. J6 tourists present and convenient were/are victims of a Whitmer conspiracy. However, Trump is their high value target of Choice... choice.
Let's see if I have this right.
Trump is the first person in history to be charged with a civil "crime" in which there is no injured party making a complaint. This from millions of loan applications made.
The judge's subjective valuation of Trump's assets is more accurate that the banks from which he secured and paid back loans, with interest. Therefore Trump must be charged with what?
This is so obviously Banana Republic bullshit, that even liberals who hate Trump must object. That is, liberals with some degree of integrity.
“So now we have some judge pulling numbers out of his backside, insisting that he's better qualified to decide the true value of those properties than were teh bank people whose sole job it was to figure that out.”
As far as I can tell, the judge essentially accepted the assessed value of the properties under judicial notice, so never gave the Trumps a chance to contest them in a full adversarial trial. Hence, the grossly low valuations. If the judge knows real estate law, like he claims, he should know that they are rarely accurate valuations. And here, where the valuations are grossly low, property owners aren’t going to contest them, for accuracy, because that means they have to pay (significantly here) lower RE taxes. I know from personal experience that that is how RE investors think - because we sometimes contest high valuations with the county appraiser, and never (like here) lower ones.
The clown for the prosecution says by overvaluing his properties, Trump is trying to reduce his tax bill. How, exactly does this work? Real estate taxes are based upon the County-determined property value, the higher the value, the higher the tax.
Somehow, a higher net worth results in a lower tax burden. Income taxes are determined by received income, not net worth. It's only the death tax that's based upon wealth, the high wealth, the higher the tax.
The real estate excise or transfer tax is based upon the documented sell price. None of the alleged fraudulent values involved sales of real estate, just loans. As anyone who's ever had a mortgage, the interest rate is determined by loan-to-value and credit rating of the borrower. The bank determines the property value, the borrower just supplies his best guess of that value.
The fraudulent judge has already said "Guilty, Guilty, Guilty!", without holding a trial nor taking testimony on the value of the properties involved.
Both the clown prosecutor and the activist judge should be disbarred and made to pay court costs of the defense, personally. They might be able to payoff that judgement in 50 years.
The entire case is based around the opinions of the judge and D.A. that they understand corporate loans, property evaluation, etc. better than the banks and Trump's corporation. This is despite giving an evaluation of Mar-a-Lago that is so low as to be both laughable and obscene, basing it on the municipal value for property taxes, which is only useful for property taxes and nothing else. This case is so utterly incompetent and corrupt that they should both be disbarred and imprisoned.
And all the screeching monkeys at the Jerry Springer Show that is Donald Trump think he was just great.
If I have a hotel on an exit of the interstate it will have some value, determined by what someone pays in a sale. It will also have an estimated value based on, as someone pointed out, Comparables, projected income and something else.
But it also has an intangible value, typically called "good will" on a balance sheet. If the Hotel is a Hampton by Hilton (or other brand) it will be worth more than if it is just "Joe's Just Pop Inn"
It seems like this is one of the points that our president emeritus has been trying to make today and that the just has been telling him to shut up about.
A "Trump" building has a brand as opposed to say 723 5th st. Is it unreasonable for that additional brand value to be included in the building value?
It is hard to estimate what the value is worth but it is clearly worth something. Probably a lot.
Seems like it should be included.
John Henry
Rich said: "Someone needs to remind Trump: This isn't one of your fan-based rallies. This is a trial...and you're just another defendant." Sorry Rich, you may be on Team Dem, but unsurprisingly, you've glossed over a number of flaws in this case.
If some NY developer other than Trump was similarly situated, this case never would have been brought. In campaigning for her office, the AG made it clear that her mission would be to take down Trump. Notably, the statute forming the cause of action for "civil fraud" was enacted to protect consumers from predatory bank lending practices, not banks from their respective clients. In effect the AG, with the court's connivance, has flipped the statute inside out in order to snare Trump by any means necessary. Both the court and the AG have beclowned themselves by allowing this action to proceed.
In my mind, the action does not constitute a "civil trial" as that term is normally understood; it is in fact a show trial with a pre-determined outcome, as established by Engoren himself before testimony was even taken, despite the fact that the judge himself is truly ignorant of acceptable appraisal methods, as well as the fact the banks suffered no damage. (The unsupported assertion that the banks would have earned a higher interest rate if Trump "fessed up" regarding the true value of the secured properties is too bizarre and speculative to even seriously consider). Stalin and Beria would be proud.
Given the circumstances, Trump is well within his rights to treat this proceeding as a non-trial, and use the megaphone given to him by the AG's office calling him as a witness as a bully pulpit. Given the judge's unforced errors, and the AG's overreach in charging Trump with damaging the banks based on a statute protecting consumers, I have to chuckle at the comments taking the charge seriously. Probability of reversal on appeal: 100%. More importantly, even before reversal, Trump will not be damaged by this madness because even a majority of otherwise loyal Dems, much like everyone else, see this trial as the political farce it is.
New York Post:
Habba interrupted proceedings, telling Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron that he was there to listen to what Trump had to say, arguing her client should be allowed to give long answers.
“I am not here to listen to what he has to say!” the judge said, telling Habba to “sit down.”
At least he's honest about that.
Is the bailiff making those cute balloon animals so often seen at circuses?
One has to get from the submitted financial information to some sort of measurable harm.
When this indictment first came down, I remember reading that in the state of New York there is no requirement that there be harm, measurable or otherwise. The state can just decide to prosecute someone for fraud whenever it wants to. I can't remember where I read that, unfortunately, but I'd love to hear confirmation or denial.
If it's true, did New York promulgate this law to fight mobsters or something? Or was there a time traveler in the New York legislature who saw Trump coming?
The bank is satisfied with the interest it received, and unless it's different from everywhere else, the state of New York does its own property tax appraisals and so could value Trump's property over the years using whatever means it wants and Trump would have had to fight it at that time in order to pay lower taxes... but Trump still has to spend his own time and money defending himself against a literally victimless crime.
The State's expert witness says it's because the higher the value of the collateral, the lower the interest rate on the loan. If the property was shown at its "true" value, the rate would have been higher. Therefore, the bank(s) was deprived of many millions of dollars of potential interest income.
Trump comes to me and wants to borrow a hundred million at 2%. I say no. He says,"Fine, I'm headed across the street to your competition and see if they want millions of dollars in interest payments".
Hold on a second, let's take another look at your proposal
Rich, I find it difficult to call the leading candidate for President "just another defendant".
Hah! If they didn't want to listen to Trump, they shouldn't have put him on the stand.
Did they think he was going to break down, confess, and plea for mercy?
Greg the Class Traitor @ 2:28: Bingo. What possible reason would cause a halfway competent lender to accept the borrower's bullish guess at valuing the collateral? If a higher valuation gave the borrower a cheaper rate, the bank is getting screwed by accepting that valuation. Likewise if the "real" value of the collateral is less than the borrower claims, the bank is getting screwed by being exposed to greater risk. And a weaker loan-to-value ratio may force the bank to mark the loan down, getting a black mark from regulators and having to come up with more equity to offset its exposure.
There is absolutely no reason why a bank would not challenge the borrower's valuations; the borrower would push back; and after the usual toffee-pull the deal terms would converge on what each side could accept. Where's the fraud here? As you say, the judge is pulling numbers out of his backside. Either he really is that ignorant (and arrogant) or he's been told to fix the case. Either way, it's a disgrace.
But didn't he take an oath to "tell the whole truth"?
I get kind of confused. Is this the case where the judge has already ruled that it's fraud to say that your property is worth more than the tax assesment?
Did they think he was going to break down, confess, and plea for mercy?
They knew he would fight the charges: "The former President believes he can fight or talk his way out of most situations." In Biden's America, you are supposed to just accept the charges against you, not fight them or speak out against them.
"The NYT is live-blogging Trump's testimony at the civil fraud trial."
The trial has nothing to do with fraud. But then again, everybody knows this.
If the location of his Scottish golf club is near a big oil center, that's certain relevant.
Umm, no.
What possible reason would cause a halfway competent lender to accept the borrower's bullish guess at valuing the collateral?
Well, the problem is that assuming Deustche Bank is a "halfway competent (or ethical) lender" just doesn't pass a laugh test.
How institutions like Deustchse Bank or others just like it (e.g., HSBC) have been allowed to continue operating, and that their principals are not in jail, demonstrates how fucked up our system is.
I have heard a number of times that no one is above the law. I agree.
The crime appears to be inflating the value of property for some financial gain in a way that deprives some other person or entity, like the bank, of money or property.
If you were to apply this rule uniformly, you could prosecute nearly every property owner in the United States. Anyone who argued for a lower assessed value in order to pay less taxes could be prosecuted. Anyone who listed a house could be prosecuted if the prosecuting attorney disagreed with the value of the home.
I guess going forward if a DA wants to buy a house cheaper, she can take the owner to court.
Also, if this is an argument over the value of Trump's property, then we really need to hear how Trump values a piece of real estate. So it seems part of the prosecution's job is to not allow that. They really CAN NOT let Trump talk about his property and its value, because very quickly they will see that the best bullshitters are the ones that believe their own bullshit, and Trump certainly believes in the value of his properties. In that case, there is no fraud, because there is no deceit or intent to deceive. But is that right? I am not a lawyer.
Because the name Dave is such a great name, a lot of people have it. I will start signing my posts. I have been commenting here off and on since the days of Trooper York and Chip Ahoy.
--tehDave
The only fraud in this case is that from the DA/judge's conspiracy to take Donald Trump down. Both are committing a fraud upon the court and should be held accountable and debarred.
Lem said:
I don't get how supposedly nobody had "standing" to sue over election fraud.
Trump's people did bring lawsuits. None prevailed, not just because of standing. Some of their complaints were dismissed because they could have been litigated before the election, and you can't bring them up after the voting. Much of what the rhetoric around the election was never brought up in the lawsuits. In short, they were a bunch of incompetents.
Greg the Class Traitor said...
I no longer like Trump. if he died of a heart attack tomorrow I'd be happy.
11/6/23, 2:26 PM
You people are garbage, just absolute pieces of shit. Not one of you worms who has to tell everybody that 'you don't like Trump, and you think Trump is trash, and You're nothing like Trump'- not one of you worthless lowlifes is fit to wash Trump's ass. The guy has been slandered, attacked, defamed, conspired against by the entire federal government, has been railroaded and targeted like nobody in American history, and you nothings have the fucking balls to declare that you're the superior person? Unbelievable- and you pukes dare to declare that Trump is an egomaniac! When one of you useless cowards accomplishes a fraction of what Trump has, when one of you self-centered chickenshits stands up to the kind of non-stop avalanche of invective and hatred that Trump and his family has withstood, when a single one of you gutless dinks puts their entire fortune and their very life on the line, then you can have something to say about Trump. Until then, shut your fucking mouths and Go Fuck Yourselves, you pathetic shits.
Kind of a shame this testimony couldn't start on the Fifth of November. Trump is a modern day Guy Fawkes, every Blue State wants to burn him, if only in effigy.
Are we really to believe that every NYC resident who got a loan on the market value of his home or business is guilty of fraud (because the assessed value for property taxes is the only correct value!)?
It’s Witless for the Prosecution.
"A 'Trump' building has a brand as opposed to say 723 5th st. Is it unreasonable for that additional brand value to be included in the building value?"
There are a grouping of condo buildings overlooking the Hudson River in the vicinity of the lower 70s/upper 60s, on Riverside Blvd., (not Riverside Drive, fyi). They were called "Trump Place." The Trump corporation didn't build or own the buildings, but Trump owns the land on which the condos were built, and so the Trump name was emblazoned on each of the buildings. Just before Trump was elected in 2016, the residents of the buildings expressed their great displeasure at having their buildings associated with Trump so they presented a petition to have the Trump name removed from the buildings...and the name was removed. When I would ride my bike to work (from the Upper West Side to Tribeca) along the Hudson River, I would always pass the buildings, and I remember seeing the buildings before and after the name was removed.
I guess the tenants didn't any value in their condos being broadly advertised as having any association with the "Trump brand," however attenuated. New Yorkers have long known what a shitheel Trump is.
So it seems to me if you are buying a piece of land and you purposely claim it has a lower value, you could be committing a crime. Is this true for a car? If two people argue over the price of a car, is one of them committing a crime?
Here is what CNN says, and I am using a source that I think is at least favorable to the prosecution:
"According to the schemes alleged by James, the financial statements compiled by Trump – which were offered to banks and other entities Trump was doing business with – include values of assets that were blatantly contradicted by internal records or otherwise falsified"
Ok. That means that if I call the tax assessor's office and say "Hey, you have overvalued my house for tax purposes", and they put down 20K assessed value, and I pay taxes on that THEN
I turn around later and value the house at 100K for sale on the market THEN
I have committed this crime?
Because if so, Santa Claus is going to need a much bigger naughty list.
---tehDave
Thank you Michael Fitzgerald 7:28 pm for your comments.
The Democrats have so normalized such awful comments, behavior (Pelosi tearing her copy of Trump’s speech in half at the State of the Union) that people just parrot the Dem’s behavior and words without often even realizing what they’re saying. Thank you for reminding them how awful they sound.
@Michael Fitzgerald (7:28), you're quite right. More to the point, is there anyone else that can be trusted to deal with the economic mess Joe Biden created?
I had always assumed that Trump's degree was in finance. Only within the past week did I learn that he got an econ degree from Wharton -- back in the days when it was still Wharton.
Aha! The suit is using the lower county assessed tax value and comparing that to the listed market value to show fraud. Is this also tax evasion? Should we be looking at these numbers for the homeowners in Bethesda Maryland? There might be a lot of criminals there.
From Wikipedia:
As part of the New York civil investigation of the Trump Organization a New York court has found that from 2011 to 2021 Mar-a-Lago has been assessed by Palm Beach County as having a value from $18 million to $27.6 million, while at the same time Trump's financial statements has valued it from $427 million to $627 million as part of an alleged scheme to both lower insurance premiums and to get favorable loan terms.[111] In contrast, one area real estate broker gave an unsupported opinion that the property could be worth as much as $1 billion. [112]
--tehDave
Michael K said...
" That judge was preening before the trial hoping to show his best side to the TV."
The trial is on tv? In a ny courtroom? What channel?
Michael Fitzgerald said...
Greg the Class Traitor said...
I no longer like Trump. if he died of a heart attack tomorrow I'd be happy.
11/6/23, 2:26 PM
"You people are garbage, just absolute pieces of shit."
Hey Michael- you do realize that Greg the Class Traitor is a fellow Know Nothing, don't you? He's actually one of you people.
Michael Fitzgerald at 7:28PM: Amen brother
Dave Begley said...
If the location of his Scottish golf club is near a big oil center, that's certain relevant.
People with money play golf.
No, it is irrelevant. Trump's foreign golf resorts lose millions of dollars every year.
To tehDave:
Trump has already been declared fraudulent. With that behind us, the present phase of the trial is to ascertain disgorgement - as in how much the Trump family stole from banks and insurance companies. AG Tish James sued for $250 million.
"Trump has already been declared fraudulent. With that behind us, the present phase of the trial is to ascertain disgorgement - as in how much the Trump family stole from banks and insurance companies. AG Tish James sued for $250 million."
This doesn't change the fact that if Trump is guilty of fraud, then any property owner that has ever paid taxes at one price and sold at another can be prosecuted for fraud. I'd wager that you, gadfly, have done this yourself.
Mutaman: "Hey Michael- you do realize that Greg the Class Traitor is a fellow Know Nothing, don't you? He's actually one of you people."
We'll just go ahead and add reading comprehension to the ever growing list of your skill set deficiencies.
Would you like to try again?
Go ahead! It should be fun!
Mutaman said:
“Hey Michael- you do realize that Greg the Class Traitor is a fellow Know Nothing, don't you? He's actually one of you people.”
That’s typical Democrat thinking. If someone says something nasty but they’re on your side then standard Democrat policy is to never criticize them.
Mutt or man? You decide…
Freder:
"How institutions like Deustchse Bank or others just like it (e.g., HSBC) have been allowed to continue operating, and that their principals are not in jail, demonstrates how fucked up our system is."
Does it trouble you even the slightest that the AG and Judge Engoron are (allegedly) doing this because they are standing up for those poor little banks and insurance companies, who Trump allegedly "defrauded" by somehow depriving them of a higher interest rates and premiums on the loans and insurance policies on which Trump paid millions of dollars to them? And that they are not going after the banks and insurance companies?
Oh wait--not deprived--"stole from banks and insurance companies."
Now do "rent control."
I'm I the only one that Sees Rodney Dangerfield in "Back to School" ?
That scene where he dismantles the College Professors business plan on building a factory and making it profitable.
Trump is doing the same thing with Real estate development. Commercial real estate devlopment, that's important to the case. The center of the oil business, sets the market, thats relevent.
Still waiting on the identity a injured party.
I think Trump is a horn dog,
And you know this how? I suspect that all you have to form this opinion is newspapers and media. And you really trust them to tell the truth? Even if they know what the truth is which I suspect they don't much of the time.
I'm not saying he is not a horndog. He may well be. But I have no more basis to form this opinion than you do.
Have you ever heard of Francisco Domingo Carlos Andres Sebastián d'Anconia? He was a copper magnate whose horndogginess makes PEDJT's reputed hordogginess tame by comparison.
Yet it turns out that he had only ever loved one woman and was a 40 year old virgin. The horndogginess was an image he cultivated. The reason he cultivated this image is because people paid so much attention to his being a frivolous playboy, that they didn't pay attention to what he was really doing. Since they did not know what he was really doing, no effort was made to stop him.
So is Donald Trump really a horndog or is it just misdirection? Everyone know what a horrible liar he is. Could he be lying about this as well?
As I say, I have no idea. But neither does anyone else commenting on this blog.
For those who don't know, Frisco was one of three major characters in Atlas Shrugged that was engaged in stopping the motor of the world. (With John Galt and Ragnar Danneskjold)
John Henry
Under which scenario are the victims of Mr. Trump’s fraud more likely to be harmed: 1, Allowing him to keep making payments on ti,e and in full. 2. Saddling the Trump organization with whatever remedy the judge devises for the fraud?
At one point Trump was discussing the location of a property and the judge called that irrelevant.
Freder is now an expert on international banking. Freder is an expert on a lot of things of which he knows nothing.
If you are borrowing from Duestches Bank on your property in America you had better have all your ducks in a row because they certainly will.
Michael Fitzgerald pretty much laid down the facts. Weak pussies who will never do anything reek of a weak jawed jealousy of real men.
This is a Nazi political show trial. If they could they would put a bullet in his head in that very courtroom right now. But they can’t (yet). So he’s going to respond politically and they can go fuck themselves unless they want to actually get him elected. But they really want him dead. So I want them dead, not to mention their fellow travelers.
Ah…2023.
Tomcc said...
Last week, I read some informative coverage of the Trump fraud trial. It was not clear to me how overstating the value of one's property to a bank amounted to fraud. (Banks don't take your word for said value). The State's expert witness says it's because the higher the value of the collateral, the lower the interest rate on the loan. If the property was shown at its "true" value, the rate would have been higher. Therefore, the bank(s) was deprived of many millions of dollars of potential interest income.
Further thought on that. I got a mortgage back in 2020. There were multiple companies offering me one, with various different interest rates.
So the "judge" / prosecution's "theory" of this case is that Trump's attempt to negotiate a lower interest rate for his loan was criminal fraud. That the "judge" is such an all knowing creature that, unlike the bank officials whose job, pay, etc are dependent upon their ability to get the best deal for their bank, only the omniscient "judge" knows the One True Value, and One Correct Interest Rate.
That's really quite special
Rabel said...
"I no longer like Trump. if he died of a heart attack tomorrow I'd be happy."
You're a class act, Greg.
Trump is a pathetic, low energy loser who is desperately fighting to con-block anyone else from accomplishing anything
I had no problem with Trump endorsing candidates in the 2022 primaries, and I had no problem with them winning teh primaries.
I had a great deal of a problem with them LOSING the GE, and I had and have a great deal of a problem with Trump for sitting on his ass post the primaries and making no effort to help them win.
Trump won KY 62 - 36 in 2020. His candidate is the GOP candidate for Gov in 2023.
how many campaign rallies has Trump done in KY for that candidate during teh General Election that ends today?
He's pissed about the gag order? Then he should have been out campaigning in KY, daring the judge to punish him for violating it.
Trump spent 4 years as President getting his ass kicked by the Deep State. He's spent 3 years post-President being a whining brat, rather than actually fighting back against the Democrats.
because "fighting back" means "winning elections", not "whinging on Truth Social"
Bruce Hayden said...
“So now we have some judge pulling numbers out of his backside, insisting that he's better qualified to decide the true value of those properties than were the bank people whose sole job it was to figure that out.”
As far as I can tell, the judge essentially accepted the assessed value of the properties under judicial notice, so never gave the Trumps a chance to contest them in a full adversarial trial.
Thank you Bruce for clearing that up
donald said...
Michael Fitzgerald pretty much laid down the facts. Weak pussies who will never do anything reek of a weak jawed jealousy of real men.
Donald Trump is a pathetic loser. See the KY Governor's race. He won that State by 25% in 2020. So, where was he while his endorsed candidate was down?
Where Trump was was sitting on his ass in Mar a logo, rather than out campaigning.
He could have had a two-for: support his candidate an bring him to victory, showing off his "winner" nature, and also flipping the bird at teh judge and his gag order, daring him to try to punish Trump for political campaign speech.
But Trump is a tired, low energy loser, so he didn't do that.
Now that Trump's endorsed candidate lost, gee he's "Mitch McConnell's" candidate, not Trump's.
If you buy that, you're an idiot.
If you tolerate someone lying to you like that, you're a fool
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