March 25, 2017

"The worst thing you can possibly do in a deal is seem desperate to make it... That makes the other guy smell blood, and then you're dead."

Wrote Trump in "The Art of the Deal." Also: "Know when to walk away from the table."

I'm reading these quotes in yesterday's Washington Post, in "Trump’s health care ultimatum is straight out of ‘The Art of the Deal.’ It just might work."

But is anyone talking about Trump's "walk away" approach today, after the ultimatum failed? Or is everyone saying: Trump failed. And: So much for the "Art of the Deal." And: Trump got a stark elementary education in the complicated reality of Washington politics — that art-of-the-deal stuff doesn't fit the exquisite complexity of Congress.

The "walk away" strategy isn't just a bluff, is it? Sometimes, you really do walk away. Long term, that builds your game, doesn't it? Or, maybe it's wrong to say "just a bluff," because in poker, if you need your opponents to think you bluff, so they'll stay in when you've got a good hand. Poker bluffing is not a good analogy for what Trump did in saying the vote had to happen on Friday or that was the end. What corresponds to the hidden hand? All that's hidden is whether Trump really will declare it over if those hearing the ultimatum don't believe this really is their last chance. They know what the bill is, and if they decide not to vote for it because they want something else, then Trump might follow through with his threat and back out. But the balky members of Congress are the ones who are staying in and taking the risk that Trump won't stay in, so they seem to be the ones doing the bluffing. Isn't it Trump who's in the position of a poker player who folds because he thinks the other guy has a better hand?*

Whether poker bluffing is a good analogy or not, we still need to think about how well Trump's approach to Congress is working. In this analysis, we need to think about what Trump really wants. I'm not sure. He may want to fulfill a campaign promise, but that promise was always contingent on Congress doing what he wants, and it's questionable whether the bill was even what he promised. If nothing passes, it ends an intra-party fight, a fight that would have continued into the Senate, straight into the wheelhouse of Rand Paul...



... who likes to stand in front of a poster with Trump's "Art of the Deal" words on it.

But I'm not sure Trump wanted to keep that promise. I think maybe he could see that there would be terrible problems under any bill that might pass, and that his name (and his party's name) would be on all those problems — which the Democrats and their many friends in the media would elaborate and amplify in the run up to the mid-term elections.

With the bill rejected — swiftly thrown away in a grand gesture — Obamacare remains, and the coming problems are all (or mostly) on the Democrats. They passed that slow-toppling disaster, with no buy-in from Republicans, and they refused to participate in the earnest effort to save America from the collapse.

I don't think Trump gave up. He saw a better path and set up a quick way to get on it.

Now, I expect that the media will belabor the defeat and the proof that Trump is no artist of the deal and that Trump will get moving on different, better, happier deals like walls and airports — tangible, buildable things.

222 comments:

1 – 200 of 222   Newer›   Newest»
Michael K said...

in poker, if you need your opponents to think you bluff, so they'll stay in when you've got a good hand.

I thought you referring to Obama's famous statement, "Don't call my bluff." Admitting you are bluffing is not good poker.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Good point Althouse: Trump Wins!

Laslo Spatula said...

For Trump, this could be a blessing in disguise.

Let it play out. Ryan loses his juice, and Rand Paul becomes ascendent.

Trump could probably get more of what he wants accomplished with non-Establishment Rand, to what will be the Democrats' chagrin.

A turning point to be viewed in retrospect, maybe.

I am Laslo.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

A wily mind can push off that cog dis for quite a while.

Not sure where that fall on the feature v bug spectrum.

Fun to witness it though, that I can tell you.



Carry on.

Unknown said...

Well to this voter, I see that the republican "freedom" caucus just consigned me to at least two more years of obamacare. They also cost the GOP about 12.5 TRILLION in tax savings they could have used for tax reform and other bills. What is saw were dogmatic politicians doing something stupid.

What trump will do now is literally walk away and let the "freedom" caucus either bring up their own bill or explain why they refused to begin to repeal obamacare.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Interesting column by Adams - you can see that happening in the comments from the left here on Althouse
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/158812654486/trump-and-healthcare

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"Trump could probably get more of what he wants accomplished with non-Establishment Rand"

I'm just spit ballin' here, but as soon as you determine what policies it is that DJT wants, maybe you could let him know.

Rusty said...

Look at it this way, ritmo. The next proposal will look nothing like the one Ryan wanted to pass.
Before, nothing was out of the question.
Now, Ryans Obamacare light is off the table.

Humperdink said...

In previous negotiations, Trump was typically dealing with a single opposition. Now he has to deal with 535 chowder heads, plus innumerable federal judges. A bit more difficult.

I suspect he will pick up his game. Since they (some obstinate R's) screwed him, I am guessing Trump's vengeful inner-being will surface. It may not be a bad thing.

traditionalguy said...

The Media gaggles are giddy this morning. They are celebrating like it is VJ day...whooping, kissing and hugging strangers. But the proof of the Obama Secret Police Crime is still erupting and will be back up when the celebrating is done.

DJT is actually famous for going into fights structured so that he either wins or he does not lose. And then he moves on to the next one just like the last one.

How is the Gorsouch nomination coming. DJT will either win or not lose on that one.

It brings to mind that he is President and they are not. Which is highlighted by a string of promises of UN intervention coming in to remove a USA President

khesanh0802 said...

In any negotiation you have to "know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em". Trump walked away from the negotiating table leaving it in the hands of the House to solve- or not solve - their problem. He has other things to do and is going to move on to those things. If the House can work out a satisfactory deal on healthcare then he'll get back in the game. I think that is good for the Congress to understand that is how Trump works. He is not concerned with the process, he is concerned with the goal. As I have said before this is not how the prima donnas in DC are used to working.

In any problem solving situation one of the options, always, is to do nothing. Trump gave it a good try and then took the do nothing option. Now he and Price can explore other alternatives and see if they can find a solution to the obvious problems of Obamacare. The Dems admit there are problems. Why wouldn't Trump bring in some Dems to talk about how to improve the situation without repealing the ACA. As so many have mentioned he has no strong allegiance to the Republican party; if they can't get the job done he is going to look for people who can.

Ann Althouse said...

"Admitting you are bluffing is not good poker."

Of course not, but getting caught bluffing sometimes establishes that you do bluff, which can get people to stay in and lay down enough money when you do have a good hand.

If they know you never bluff, they'll fold when you try to build up the pot.

Ann Althouse said...

"Don't call my bluff" could be a good thing to say if you were not bluffing or if it made other people think that's what you'd say if you were NOT bluffing, so they fold, and you really were bluffing.

Once written, twice... said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ann Althouse said...

"Trump could probably get more of what he wants accomplished with non-Establishment Rand..."

Does Trump like (i.e., feel he can use) Rand Paul?

Once written, twice... said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Once written, twice... said...

Everyone knew Trump was bluffing because he never had a real plan. During the campaign Trump promised that he had a plan that could deliver healthcare to everyone that would be better, cheaper, and would get rid of the individual mandate. Of course, only idiots would fall for such a demagogic appeal. (Ann was one of those idiots.) Trump is now just happy to claim "I tried." The sad thing is that idiots like Ann will believe him.

Mark said...

Sure, voters who elected people to eliminate Obamacare are going to blame Democrats for their elected representatives failure to use majority power.

Keep hope alive!

Unknown said...

"The Art of the Deal" was ghost-written.

Google the ghost-writer who explains how it was all made up.

Trump University, Trump Steaks, Trump Wines, Trump Vodka and on and on ... ALL FAILED.

David said...

Obamacare remains, and the coming problems are all (or mostly) on the Democrats. They passed that slow-toppling disaster, with no buy-in from Republicans, and they refused to participate in the earnest effort to save America from the collapse.

Maybe. We are going to hear a lot about how the Republicans are sabotaging the Obamacare mechanism. The press will echo this. A lot of people will buy in to the idea.

Beyond that, though, I think you are right that the better move for Trump was to withdraw the bill and move on. I just finished a book about W.T. Sherman (another one). The author makes the point that one of Sherman's best qualities as a general was his willingness to disengage when he saw that he was not in a strong position.

BJM said...

The Democrats/media are so desperate for a Trump loss that they missed a yuge opportunity. Obamacare will fail just before mid-terms frightening and harming tens of millions of voters.

The Dems could have built momentum by fixing their program, they had the leverage, and Trump would have done a deal, he owes no loyalty to the Congressional GOP, he promised results and I doubt he much cares how it happens. The Dems could have been heros in 2018.

Laslo Spatula said...

Ann Althouse said...
"Does Trump like (i.e., feel he can use) Rand Paul?"

I bet he feels he can make deals where both sides feel like they won.

Rand is more up to breaking the System to fix the System. After this debacle, I believe Trump knows that is how it has to be, too.

He tried 'Their Way' like the Media People wanted and had a front-row seat to Amateur Hour.

Too much Pride involved to trust them again.

If Lucy is going to keep pulling the football away, then Fire Lucy and get a different place-holder.

I am Laslo.

Unknown said...

Post Trumpcare failure, Scott Adams thinks the biggest invisible story is the narrative is moving from "Trump is Hitler" to "Trump is Incompetent".

As usual, Scott Adams is just another huckster.

Most of us always knew Trump was INCOMPETENT. It is right there in front of you expect the Trumpies cannot see it.



Angel-Dyne said...

I'm puzzled why anybody thinks much of anything has happened here. Health care is a huge gnarly mess. Indicating to the donors who write the legislation that they're not going to get everything their own sweet way in a nice neat "fix" is, I would think (hope!) barely the beginning of play.

AprilApple said...

"With the bill rejected — swiftly thrown away in a grand gesture — Obamacare remains, and the coming problems are all (or mostly) on the Democrats. They passed that slow-toppling disaster, with no buy-in from Republicans, and they refused to participate in the earnest effort to save America from the collapse."

Yep - and 2018 is coming, democrats.

YOU STILL OWN THE GRUBER LIES.

Drago said...

Unknown: "Trump University, Trump Steaks, Trump Wines, Trump Vodka and on and on ... ALL FAILED"

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow/story/286886/7-steve-jobs-products-that-failed

http://thepurposeisprofit.com/2015/07/28/bill-gates-steve-jobs-risk-failure-and-success/

snip: "n the startup world, failure can be viewed as valuable feedback. As Bill Gates said, “It’s fine to celebrate success, but it is more important to heed the lessons of failure.”

Gates, of course, is the richest man in the world, topping the Forbes Annual Ranking list 16 times in the past 21 years. But before launching Microsoft, he and Paul Allen were co-owners of a failed business called Traf-O-Data, a computerized machine for processing paper tapes from traffic counters. While the product went belly up, Gates and Allen used what they learned to go on and create the largest software company in the world."

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/237843

Snip: "The Dallas Mavericks owner and tech industry titan told Entrepreneur.com on the set of the popular startup pitch show that he’s gotten fired from “more jobs than most people have had.” He’s also failed to close several key sales deals, has had his credit card rejected and cut up on a date, and he’s opened and closed more businesses than he can count. "

I wonder if there might be a lesson in all of that?

...nah.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"Maybe. We are going to hear a lot about how the Republicans are sabotaging the Obamacare mechanism. The press will echo this. A lot of people will buy in to the idea."

The administration already canceled the paid for ads that were meant to get folks to sign up before the enrollment period ended.

When they do sabotage it they need to make sure there's zero "paper trail." It would backfire if it can be shown that they're trying to make people suffer for their own political benefit, imho.



Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Good. Time to move away from the Republican delusions the American people want some free market health care. They don't. It is beyond rediculous we haven't figured out a way to get healthcare to everyone.

Now would be a good time to have a debate about what to replace Obamacare when it collapsed. The Dems want an English style system of government doctors and hospitals. The government pays from dollar one.

Let's debate that. The good and the bad. The real costs and taxes. The real rationing that will occur.

Debate a government catastrophic coverage plan.

Debate a Nordic style of insurance.


Finally after 50 years the Republican fantasy has died. Now let's get serious.

Thank you President Trump.

The Godfather said...

How is Trump the loser? He turned the design of the repeal and replace bill over to the legislative mastermind, master of the House, Paul Ryan. It was Ryan's bill. Ryan couldn't get it through his own House.

I hope that the Republicans elect enough Senators in 2018 to pass a real repeal and replace without the "reconciliation" gimmick. Even if not, the flaws inherent in Obamacare may become even more evident over the next couple of years. A few Democrats may even decide that they aren't helping themselves by playing "Resistance" and come to the table to make a deal. Who knows?

Guildofcannonballs said...

I would think if it is dumb stupid idiots being idiotic that makes you sad, that is a happy thing to be sad about.

What about rapes and genocides? Little dogs thrown into the yard of big pit bulls and eaten alive? Those things make me sad, even worse if there is such a description of an emotion in the lexicon.

Dumb stupid dummies being morons makes me feel superior to them and therefore as happy as I could possibly be in this life. Without those I can look down on, I am nothing at all. In many ways, being blessed with ideological enemies such as Ritno or PB is the greatest existence possible for a human to have.

With all the suicides and OD's they must not feel the same about me though, though this imbalance is ever-more life-affirming for me.

"If I was born in 1453, Leonardo da Vinci would be jealous of me." - Steel Panther

Bruce Hayden said...

@Tradguy - as far as I can tell, the Gorsuch nomination is still on track. Dems are going to filibuster, but Schumer is going to need the votes of some Trump state Dems up for reelection next year to pull it off. Which means that these Dems open themselves up to attack then, and the Republicans go Nuclear. Which means that they can push through an even more conservative nominee the next time a vacancy opens up. I think that the big hope is that a somewhat unhealthy Justice Ginsburg, leaves, making it 6-3, and maybe the somewhat squishy Kennedy. Breyer would make it 7-2, and, then watch out.

I think that Schumer got pushed into a corner by his base. They are rabid right now to "resist". Should keep the filibuster in place for a bit for SCOTUS nominees, to force the Republicans into somewhat moderate picks when Ginsburg and maybe Kennedy are replaced. Esp Ginsburg, because 6-3 is a lot worse for them than 5-4, esp when one of the 5 is squishy like Kennedy. Schumer is smart enough to know this, but I think that his hands are tied right now.

Switching card game analogies from poker to bridge, think of the filibuster here as a trump card. He is being forced to play it when it will do little good - when the other side is running their high trump to pull his. President Trump and the Senate GOP have to confirm Gorsuch, because of campaign promises, etc, so they will.

pacwest said...

Democrats are overjoyed to see government funded healthcare fail. Republicans are bummed they can't get socialized medicine.

It's a world gone mad.

Unknown said...

In a public company, if the CEO failed on TWO strategic goals he/she would be shown the door.

Trump has been running a large mom-and-pop operation for decades and didn't have anyone to answer to except himself.

President Trump has someone to answer to now and he failed BIG time.

Humperdink said...

I mentioned this moons ago: Spouse and I traveled to Belize. She got ill. Went to the 100% government funded "free" healthcare clinic. Fifty people in front of us. Place was filthy. Can't wait for it to come to the US. It will be different this time, right?

AReasonableMan said...

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
Good point Althouse: Trump Wins!


Now now, give the grieving process time to work its magic.

Drago said...

More background for Unknown on "failures" and the value of failure in your personal or organizational growth:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamarruda/2015/05/14/why-failure-is-essential-to-success/#236ec28d7923

http://99u.com/articles/7072/why-success-always-starts-with-failure

snip: "“Few of our own failures are fatal,” economist and Financial Times columnist Tim Harford writes in his new book, Adapt: Why Success Always Starts With Failure. This may be true, but we certainly don’t act like it. When our mistakes stare us in the face, we often find it so upsetting that we miss out on the primary benefit of failing (yes, benefit): the chance to get over our egos and come back with a stronger, smarter approach.
According to Adapt, “success comes through rapidly fixing our mistakes rather than getting things right first time.”

The true test of a successful person involves adaptation.

And so it will be for Trump, the current guy "in the arena" as Churchill said. How will he adapt to creating success with the republican caucus while fighting a battle against a monolithic opposition.

The fun part? We have a front row seat to see what happens next.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Hey Unknown. Two words:

Guantanamo

Stimulus.

Drago said...

ARM: "Now now, give the grieving process time to work its magic."

There can be no grieving. There is only the "next thing". Entrepreneurs tend to shift quickly to the "next thing" while incorporating what they've learned.

"Whether you're a quarterback and you just threw a pick, or you're a corner and you just got beat for a touchdown, you've got to have a short-term memory, shake it off and play the next play." Steve Mariucci

David Begley said...

Unknown

Name some CEO's who have been axed. The CAT, AIG and Valent guys are the only ones who come to mind and there is way more failure than that. The Valent guy had serious problems and CAT just got raided on tax issues.

Mark said...

Or is everyone saying: Trump failed

Among the Chucksters, of course they are saying that. But most people grounded in reality know that this is entirely on the POS Republican Establishment.

Look -- there was already a deal. The deal was made and agreed to. And the deal -- which was with the people who elected these POSs -- was to REPEAL ObamaCare, period. Not to re-do it, but to straight up repeal it. And for several election cycles they said, "Just elect us and we promise to do that. Give us a House majority and we will do it. Give us the Senate and we will do it. Give us the White House and we will do it."

Of course, no one trusted them when they said it. Still, they did make that deal.

Now, it is time. For once, just for kicks, it is time to actually do what they said they would do. But no, instead we got Pelosi tactics from Ryan and an Establishment bill. Now, the idea that we let ObamaCare and that the failure will "be on the Democrats," as if this thing is about gaining electoral advantage for the Republicans, if the Republicans think that, then they are more even deluded than before. This isn't about some effing "us vs. them" partisan contest, about getting more of "our team" in power. It is about doing the right thing. Just for once, huh?

Chris N said...

I'm guessing Trump has an executive mgmt style: Wield a high amount of personal authority and responsibility (loyalty to all people in his org, but especially to an inner circle...outside the org is competition...fuck 'em) and provide goal-oriented leadership by letting groups fight it out to get into the inner circle, solve problems and grow the org.

Steve Uhr said...

Trump appears not to give a rat's ass about the people who will be injured once ObamaCare "explodes." He may not realize it but he inherited the problems with ObamaCare just like Obama inherited the problems with the Iraqi war and the economy. Nature of the job. It is not about blaming the democrats. It is not about winning or losing. It's about being a president for all the people. About fixing the healthcare system BEFORE it explodes, not after. He would much rather play the blame game and move onto something else. Sad.

Drago said...

Bill, Republic of Texas: "Hey Unknown. Two words: Guantanamo Stimulus."

It's much more than that really.

It's Bay of Pigs.
It's Bill Clintons failure to deliver the Middle Class tax cuts he had promised throughout his entire campaign.

This is hardly something new.

Drago said...

Steve Uhr: "Trump appears not to give a rat's ass about the people who will be injured once ObamaCare "explodes.""

How could it explode?

The dems created perfection! And we are all lucky to have it!

Luke Lea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tim in vermont said...

We all knew Trump was a bit of a Democrat and Congress would have to keep him in line.

Drago said...

Unknown: "In a public company, if the CEO failed on TWO strategic goals he/she would be shown the door."

Uh oh.

Is the point in time where we let Unknown pretend to be some sort of business guru who understands corporate CEO/Board Relationships, Strategy and Strategy Execution?

LOL

I thought not!

Humperdink said...

"The dems created perfection! And we are all lucky to have it!"

So lucky in fact, that if don't buy it, you will pay a fine or get dragged in by the IRS. Sweet!!

Chuck said...

Where in "The Art of the Deal" is the part about making absurdly grand promises (about lowered health care costs, coverage for everybody, a simplified system, with better services) with no substance, and never coming close to fulfilling them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPJfKdp3bDs

clint said...

"Or is everyone saying: Trump failed."

Who is this "everyone" you speak of?

sunsong said...

LOLOL

This is now the pubbies' healthcare. They are the party in power and they own healthcare, and so much more, now...lol

How fun that the freedom caucus won't even work with pubbies...lol

jimbino said...

Trump's wisdom is no better than nostrums like "buy low, sell high" that are full of encouragement while lacking in needed facts.

Time to move away from the Republican delusions the American people want some free market health care.

Amerikans can't articulate what it is they want in healthcare reform. But their rampant enjoyment of Walmart, Amazon, Craigslist, eBay, Home Depot and others shows that they react positively to vendors who publish their prices and who thus compete in the free market, which doesn't exist anywhere in health care, where all pricing info is hidden, if not explicitly prohibited.

Drago said...

Humperdink: "So lucky in fact, that if don't buy it, you will pay a fine or get dragged in by the IRS. Sweet!!"

Exactly.

We were told by the dems that if we didn't pass obamacare "People will Die!"

Then we were told by the dems that if we replace obamacare "People will Die!"

Now we are being told by the dems that obamacare is imploding and if we don't make big changes to it "People will Die!".

Note: when something is "imploding" and/or "collapsing", I'm afraid that that the "only small, incremental changes are necessary" talking points fall a bit flat.

Chris N said...

Myself, I envision a Putumayo Workers U.N Faculty Lounge Council Committee, meeting bi-monthly to ratify the Declaration Of Human Rights and rectify all past crimes.

Esperanto is mandatory

Saluton!

Unknown said...

Trump said his first preference was that Obamacare failed on its own, but that would be cruel to Americans. He never was truly in favor of or had much interest in TrumpCare, despite declaring it "wonderful!". He wasn't very upset when the TrumpCare Bill failed because he knew he could blame its failure on Democrats and to hell with people who need health care anyway. Did he truly think Democrats would vote to destroy Obamacare? Of course Trump also knew he could blame Ryan and the Freedom Caucus. That's how Trump likes it, when there are plenty of other people to blame on his own failures.

Trump is in over his head. He is an incompetant old fraudster and probably worse. Trump has far bigger worries than a failure of a repeal and replace healthcare bill, which meant very little to him anyway. His entire focus is on how to not be charged with treason. The wall, the travel ban, healthcare, tax reform, infrastructure, all will only have a half hearted effort on his part. He's in deep trouble and he knows it., hence his nutty tweets about being wire tapped by Obama. His focus now is saving his own skin.

Luke Lea said...

On trade and immigration the stakes are much clearer and it will be much easier to tell whether he wins or loses. Those two issues are at the heart of his appeal. If in 4 or 8 years he can get low-skilled jobs back and low-skilled wages up, Democrats will be out of power for a long time to come.

On immigration enforcement though I do wonder why he doesn't talk more about E-Verify or, better yet, a biometric national ID to replace our current Social Security card? The wall is symbolic but real enforcement must be done at the point of employment. I think everyone understands that. So maybe Trump is not really serious (as NYT pointed out in an editorial the other day)?

Guildofcannonballs said...

Nobody knows nothing about nothing when it comes to healthcare graft and corruption if they are not actively trying to steal health and life itself for filthy lucre, except maybe Ramesh Pannuru, but he sounds like a twelve year old female when he talks and his writing is boring so all the knowledge is almost like it never existed to begin with.

Trump did say over and over the best thing politically for him would be to stand back and watch Obama's eponymous (informally but officially endorsed as his preferred name) law destroy all that which it was designed to destroy, sad as the continued injections of money to Chicago mafioso inspired henchwomen it would be.

Of course I figured Hillary would have Tim Kaine and his family whacked by now, so what do I know about events past, present, or in the future?

Laslo Spatula said...

Chuck at 3/25/17, 10:02 AM:
Stolen Bread! Stolen Bread!

I am Laslo.

Drago said...

jimbino: " But their rampant enjoyment of Walmart, Amazon, Craigslist, eBay, Home Depot and others shows that they react positively to vendors who publish their prices and who thus compete in the free market, which doesn't exist anywhere in health care, where all pricing info is hidden, if not explicitly prohibited."

This is precisely correct.

No one using our healthcare system has any idea what anything costs or can effectively compare cost/quality/availability across a range of options.

And this is precisely how bureaucrats, rent-seeking companies and lobbyists like it

Steve Uhr said...

Although I'm a big fan of competition and allowing insurance companies to offer policies across state lines (and repealing the McCarran Fergusan Act - that should be an easy call), I'm not so sure it will make a big difference. Many counties only have one choice of policy now even though there are multiple health insurers operating in the state. If insurance company X doesn't want to participate in the exchanges in its own state, why would it want to do so in other states (and develop network of doctors, hospitals, etc.)?

Snark said...

Tony Schwartz spent months last year practically begging people to understand on any platform that he could find that The Art of the Deal was a fraud and illusion. That Trump was an empty shell who had no art beyond shucking and lying and bullying. "The art of the deal" as a glib phrase can be mined by supporters and opponents alike. Have at it, but understand it's almost certainly got very little to do with Donald Trump in reality.

Ken B said...

Aren't you mocking Rand Paul for making the same point you are?

Humperdink said...

Sunsong inexplicably said: "This is now the pubbies' healthcare. They are the party in power and they own healthcare, and so much more, now...lol"

Have you been in a coma? Are you familiar with the term Obamacare? It remains the law of the land.

Drago said...

Unknown: " His entire focus is on how to not be charged with treason."

LOL

Oh, that again! Can't wait to see the evidence. But we'll have to, won't we? Just as we must continue to wait to see those packs of unicorns. Oh well.

In the meantime, just who was it that signed off on the unmasking of all those Trump associate/campaign/family names in all those widely dispersed raw intelligence files?

Well, I guess we'll be getting to that this week, in closed session, where Nunes is now in possession of some very interesting knowledge that he did not have just a week or so ago.

And again, how "strange" is it that Stone/Manafort/Page are literally racing to DC to voluntarily answer questions under oath?

Again, difficult questions to avoid if you are a Maddow fan and "Coast Watcher".

I say "Coast Watcher" because we all know how fascinated the left is when aircraft share the same airport or vessels share the same port. Why if that is prima facie evidence of Treason, then what is???

LOL

Hagar said...

Everybody says? This "everybody" is in the media echo chamber.

There has been a lot of comments hereon about the congresscritters and what they have done or may do, and Michael K. has raisedd the question of where the doctors may go, but how about the "insurance" companies? I would think there must be considerable consternation in their boardrooms now with the prospect of at least 4 more years with Obamacare losses and no relief before them!

Steve Uhr said...

As others have noted, price transparency could make a huge difference. Try calling a hospital and asking what a mammogram or MRI costs. How many people realize that drug prices at Costco are often 90 percent lower than at CVS and Walgreens? And in many (all?) states you can use the Costco pharmacy even if you are not a member.

The government could facilitate such transparency at very little cost if it wanted to. But that would mean stepping on the toes of certain special interests.

Drago said...

sunsong: "This is now the pubbies' healthcare. They are the party in power and they own healthcare, and so much more, now...lol"

So, lets follow the logic.

Dem talking point: Obamacare is the greatest thing since sliced toast and you can thank the dems for it!!

Also, those evil republicans were going to replace it but they failed!! Yeah!!

Oh, and, uh, Republicans own obamacare lock, stock and barrel now.

Adios!

Bob Boyd said...

Republican Obamacare repeal bills are like North Korean missiles, they fall into the sea or they blow up on the pad, some of the engineers vanish, never to be heard from again and the survivors start building another one.
After a while you have to wonder if Kim Jung On really wants a missile that can reach America or if he just wants to be seen as working on one.

Drago said...

Steve Uhr: "The government could facilitate such transparency at very little cost if it wanted to. But that would mean stepping on the toes of certain special interests."

Ta da!

Welcome to the club.

Mark said...

Insurance company profits are at all-time high.

readering said...

Remind me why Trump was the best of 17 Republican choices in the primary.

Chuck said...

The stupidity and the lack of reality came from the Limbaugh/Hannity sector of American politics. Where they daily screamed about "Obmacare," because the root of that term was "Obama." And "repeal and replace" became a mantra like "Bush lied people died," or "radical Islamic terrorism," or "Occupy!"

Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh are ignorant about a great many things of course. But when it comes to healthcare law -- and more specifically, real solutions to health care costs and coverage and delivery -- they are three of the stupidest people in politics. And a big part of the reason is that they never interview smart people. Limbaugh never interviews anybody. Hannity only talks to ("interview' would be a misnomer) the same freakshow lineup every night. David Clarke, Sebastian Gorka, Laura Ingraham, Lou Dobbs. O'Reilly's producers grab the occasional good guest, and those guests only magnify O'Reilly's ignorance. Those guys never have to do interview prep, or read any books, or get out of their little media cocoons. So they never learn much of anything, except how certain slogans and memes are playing with their very large audience demographics.


AReasonableMan said...

Humperdink said...
Are you familiar with the term Obamacare? It remains the law of the land.


It does, but almost entirely due to the actions, or lack thereof, of Republicans. Think of it as RyanObamaTrumpRobertsCare.

Original Mike said...

Blogger sunsong said..."This is now the pubbies' healthcare. They are the party in power and they own healthcare,"

It's telling that Democrats want to offload the responsibility for ObamaCare. It was in a slow-roll failure well before this election season and sentient beings knew it. The Democrats see an opportunity to offload the blame and given their ownership of the media it may work.

BJM said...

We are going to hear a lot about how the Republicans are sabotaging the Obamacare mechanism. The press will echo this. A lot of people will buy in to the idea.

The only people who will buy into it are those who aren't in Obamacare. This is basic kitchen table politics, something the Dems were once very adept at. The premium increases and high deductibles are simply becoming untenable for the enrollees it was designed to help. Families only have x amount of income to spend on health insurance, and the high deductibles make it unusable for their day to day medical needs. No amount of spin changes their financial situation. What can't be paid, won't.

I still do not understand why the Dems didn't tweak Obamacare when they had the opportunity. Instead of creating a model plan to bootstrap to single payer, if that is/was their goal, they proved once again that govt can't manage health care (See Medicare & VA).

Single payer is not a starter, Govt workers and unions, a key Dem voter/donor base, will not give up their Cadillac plans for the likes of Obamacare. So what is the Dem's end game?

Drago said...

Mark: "Insurance company profits are at all-time high"

Yep. Subsidies.

Which is why costs are hidden from healthcare consumers.

The rent-seeking insurance companies along with the bureaucrats and lobbyists have it all wired.

AReasonableMan said...

readering said...
Remind me why Trump was the best of 17 Republican choices in the primary.


He was the only one who appeared to have heard what actual Republican voters wanted from government.

Drago said...

ARM: "t does, but almost entirely due to the actions, or lack thereof, of Republicans. Think of it as RyanObamaTrumpRobertsCare."

Tsk tsk. Not pithy.

Chuck said...

readering said...
Remind me why Trump was the best of 17 Republican choices in the primary.


I think it is because he made the most grandiose promises, in the simplest terms. So "best" wouldn't be the right word. "Most marginally successful" would be better terminology.

AprilApple said...

Tim in Vermont

We all knew Trump was a bit of a Democrat and Congress would have to keep him in line.



The Trump-is-god-ders are spinning.
The Obama-Gruber disingenuous progressives are spinning.

Meanwhile, Americans are still stuck with the corruption.

Luke Lea said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tim in vermont said...

I don't blame Sunsong for wanting to wash her hands of Obamacare. Cost them the house and the Senate.

Francisco D said...

AA wrote: "If they know you never bluff, they'll fold when you try to build up the pot."

Absolutely. When I was learning to play Texas Hold 'Em, I read a ton of books on poker, including the incredible Doyle Brunson. Good poker players want to get caught bluffing, particularly early on and if they are starting out with weak hands. If they are "tight" players and stay that way, they never win anything. Their chips just dribble away.

Humperdink said...

Humperdink said...
Are you familiar with the term Obamacare? It remains the law of the land.

ARM responded: "It does, but almost entirely due to the actions, or lack thereof, of Republicans. Think of it as RyanObamaTrumpRobertsCare."

So ARM, are in favor of retaining Obamacare or against it? Your comment implies you think it sucks too. Inquiring minds want to know.

Drago said...

ARM: "He was the only one who appeared to have heard what actual Republican voters wanted from government."

Cruz did as well but we found out that Cruz was not capable, at least in that campaign, to create a movement of supporters.

It's a funny thing, political movements, and who those crowds decide will be their chosen candidate.

Luke Lea said...

A commenter over on Steve Sailer's blog:

Again with Trump, on this issue as he has been on others, he’s Schrödinger’s politician: either a fool or a genius, depending on how you look at it and how the chips fall. Either he got buffaloed into this mess by Ryan, rather than getting out in front of it; or he was smart enough to let it fail on its own to basically let the Congressional GOP show itself as incoherent, to give him room to maneuver into taking the party over more completely now.

Guildofcannonballs said...

"This isn't about some effing "us vs. them" partisan contest, about getting more of "our team" in power. It is about doing the right thing. Just for once, huh?"

The right thing is defined as stopping the evil (baby-part selling, free speech denying, civilian held firearms hating, God loathing, centralized power fetishizing, etc...) Democratics by getting elected. That is a shitty definition that accomplished and is accomplishing a lot of Democratic's goals as in letting the bureaucracy rule while the debt soars and courts grow more insanely proggy, knowing that because of the demographic changes enacted to destroy America by Ted Kennedy in 1965 stopping any conservative advancement while ratcheting up cultural Leftism will result in America becoming California-bound and eventually Venezuela, which worked in billions of ways perfectly for the Chavez's and fucking Kennedys.

And Cantors.

Hasterts.

Kings.

Ryans.

Stevens.

Rohrbachers.

And on down the damn GOP line.

Mark said...

Health care, housing, education.

If you look at all the areas that government has interjected itself, so as to promote "affordable health care," "affordable housing," "affordable education," in each and every one of these, wherever the government has intervened to make things more "affordable," costs have skyrocketed to make them more unaffordable than ever. Meanwhile, the providers of these things -- doctors, hospitals, landlords, universities, professors and teachers and their unions -- are raking in the cash like never before.

AReasonableMan said...

BJM said...
Single payer is not a starter, Govt workers and unions, a key Dem voter/donor base, will not give up their Cadillac plans for the likes of Obamacare. So what is the Dem's end game?


This sounds like a good point but I am not sure that it is. Most single payer systems have an associated private insurance system for the well off. Companies, and governments, could provide supplemental insurance for their employees to reproduce the Cadillac plans, if they so desired, under a single payer system.

Unknown said...

"Well, I guess we'll be getting to that this week, in closed session, where Nunes is now in possession of some very interesting knowledge that he did not have just a week or so ago.

And again, how "strange" is it that Stone/Manafort/Page are literally racing to DC to voluntarily answer questions under oath?"

I think things in reality are not as they seem to you. I only wish Nunes didn't cancel the public hearing, what is he afraid of? Why did he apologize to the rest of the House Intelligence Committee if he had such damning info? Stone, Manafort and Page are very arrogant people who are not above lying under oath. They may end up being surprised that there are intercepts with their conversations that will be used to get them on perjury. Look at what happened to Flynn.

Chuck said...

We are going to hear a lot about how the Republicans are sabotaging the Obamacare mechanism. The press will echo this. A lot of people will buy in to the idea.

An excellent point. And true, I think. At least among the very large number of people who already hate everything about Republicans, and whose hatred of Republicans is only magnified by their additional hatred of Trump.

But I wonder how successful they will be. If the entire national media was locked down to protect Obama and Obamacare, and was an impenetrable defense, we Republicans wouldn't have done so well in the 2010, 2014 and 2016 elections.

Michael K said...

"I think that Schumer got pushed into a corner by his base. They are rabid right now to "resist".

I agree. You can see that here in the lefty comments. He made a few moderate comments early on and I thought he might actually try to work with Trump but that met with a firestorm from the idiots that make up his base.

He has to know that a filibuster is a suicide mission. Maybe he can get five Senators to vote for Gorsuch but they would be primaried by the nut cases.

Original Mike said...

"Most single payer systems have an associated private insurance system for the well off."

You sure? The left hates that. There was a referendum a few years ago in Arizona making it a constitutional right to pay for your own healthcare and the left fought it tooth and nail.

Hagar said...

It may be debatable whose baby Obamacare is, but the "insurance" companies are holding it.

Unknown said...

Physicians for National Health Program

Chuck said...

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
Good point Althouse: Trump Wins!


Don't all Althouse posts concerning Trump do that? They demur on policy, try to make some point about meta-messaging and of course how the New York Times gets it wrong but if only they could get it right... and then there is the declaration, after having carefully prescribed the terms, that Trump Wins!

Michael K said...

"I think things in reality are not as they seem to you."

Inga, you can't imagine how silly you sound saying that.

Original Mike said...

"Stone, Manafort and Page are very arrogant people who are not above lying under oath."

The delusion is strong in this one.

Unknown said...

Medicare for All Act

Michael said...

Addressing O-care at this point was premature in any case, but there was surely a lot of pressure to do so. Trump has walked away, but not necessarily forever. The time to move forward will be a year from now, with a better bill, after the problems with O-care have become that much more evident and things have (one hopes) settled down a little in DC.

Michael K said...

""Most single payer systems have an associated private insurance system for the well off."

About 20 years ago, when Labour was in power in Britain, the unionized NHS hospital workers decided they would not permit private patients in NHS hospitals where they were permitted private rooms and telephones.

As a result, the entire specialist physician population of London, called "Harley Street" where many have their offices, moved to Belgium. They stayed several years until the NHS unions backed down. In the meantime there was a mini-scandal when the Labour health minister had her hysterectomy done in Belgium by a Harley Street specialist.

It's one reason why France, with its market based system, has the highest satisfaction in Europe.

rehajm said...

the flaws inherent in Obamacare may become even more evident over the next couple of years.

It won't take that long.

Unknown said...

Michael K,

Don't you need to go to Washington DC and save healthcare, since you are so knowlegeable on the subject, as you've said? Why do you waste your precious time commenting on Althouse when you could be doing something much more worthwhile?

mockturtle said...

For Trump, this could be a blessing in disguise.

Let it play out. Ryan loses his juice, and Rand Paul becomes ascendent.

Trump could probably get more of what he wants accomplished with non-Establishment Rand, to what will be the Democrats' chagrin.

A turning point to be viewed in retrospect, maybe.


Laslo is right. Trump didn't really want this version of the bill to pass. Hope he lets Rand write the next bill.

tim in vermont said...

Two people I am grateful are not president are Cruz and Hillary.

Drago said...

Unknown: "I think things in reality are not as they seem to you. I only wish Nunes didn't cancel the public hearing, what is he afraid of?"

LOL

He can't ask classified questions in an open session!

Is this really that hard for you to understand?

Drago said...

Michael K: "It's one reason why France, with its market based system, has the highest satisfaction in Europe."

France also does not allow open borders migration in the millions which alone will sink any public system.

Owen said...

I think Trump will move on. The GOP owns this tactical failure and if they handle it wisely the next year's flaming failure of Obamacare will not be laid at their feet, but will stick to the Democrats. We have not hit bottom, and it is the Democrats who need to be made to acknowledge it. A very unstable and stupidly expensive situation, thanks largely to the geniuses and liars who promised all that free stuff and kicked the can down the road. Now the bill has come due. It is imperative that the GOP --lame as it is-- not be stuck with paying the price. It belongs entirely to Obama and his party.

Unknown said...

"It's one reason why France, with its market based system, has the highest satisfaction in Europe"

Yes indeed! I would love to hear more about your ideas on how it should/could be implemented here in the US. You can do some good here Michael K. Try to convince these Trumpists that the French system is of benefit to us Americans. I could agree with you here.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"Trump will get moving on different, better, happier deals like walls and airports — tangible, buildable things."

Keystone was approved yesterday.

AReasonableMan said...

wiki said...
The French health care system is one of universal health care largely financed by government national health insurance. In its 2000 assessment of world health care systems, the World Health Organization found that France provided the "close to best overall health care" in the world.[1] In 2011, France spent 11.6% of GDP on health care, or US$4,086 per capita,[2] a figure much higher than the average spent by countries in Europe but less than in the US.

Most general physicians are in private practice but draw their income from the public insurance funds. The French government generally refunds patients 70% of most health care costs, and 100% in case of costly or long-term ailments. Supplemental coverage may be bought from private insurers, most of them nonprofit, mutual insurers.

The entire population must pay compulsory health insurance. The insurers are non-profit agencies that annually participate in negotiations with the state regarding the overall funding of health care in France.


Hard to see the Freedom Caucus going for this.

Unknown said...

"He can't ask classified questions in an open session"

No kidding. I was saying he could still hold an open hearing in addition to the closed session, that deserves a "duh".

Mark said...

Addressing O-care at this point was premature in any case

Protecting individual liberties -- which are grossly violated by ObamaCare regardless of Roberts inane opinion -- is never premature. In fact, safeguarding liberty is the true end and primary raison d'etre of government.

Chuck said...

mockturtle said...
...
Laslo is right. Trump didn't really want this version of the bill to pass. Hope he lets Rand write the next bill.


So why did Trump say he supported it? Why did Trump work on trying to pass it? Why did Sean Spicer say that it was "Plan A," and that there was only a "Plan A" and no Plan B?

I will agree with one thing; Trump doesn't care about what is in any bill, because he doesn't really understand any of them, apart from being applause lines at stadium rallies. If we wanted a president who understood the nitty gritty of healthcare reform, congressional dynamics and bipartisan requirements to get a bill that has national consensus, we would have elected John Kasich.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Michael K. knows more about healhcare than Inga the resident bedpan carrier.

I agree with Laslo and mockturtle: "Trump didn't really want this version of the bill to pass. Hope he lets Rand write the next bill."

I didn't want this version of the bill to pass either so I'm perfectly fine with Trump's so- called "big defeat." The Dems still own Ocare and are responsible for it's failures. sunsong and Bedpan Inga are too stupid to see that, of course.

mockturtle said...

If Lucy is going to keep pulling the football away, then Fire Lucy and get a different place-holder.

Exactly, Laslo. And don't you think Trump had this in mind? Let's let the GOP leadership have a shot---just so they won't feel snubbed--then turn it over to someone who knows what he's doing.

Mark said...

"Most single payer systems have an associated private insurance system for the well off."

A single-payer system requires that it be illegal to pay out-of-pocket for medical treatment or to have some other privately-arranged payment mechanism.

Similarly, ObamaCare makes it illegal to be uninsured. And effing Ryan couldn't even bring himself to repealing that aspect of ObamaCare. Under RyanCare, it still would have been unlawful not to pay over your money to some private corporation in exchange for a piece of paper that says if you pay a few thousand more in addition, that corporation might pay your medical bills, but does not guarantee that you actually receive any medical treatment.

Michael K said...

" You can do some good here Michael K. Try to convince these Trumpists that the French system is of benefit to us Americans. I could agree with you here."

I provided you a link to what I had written on it and analyzing all the other health care systems in the civilized world.

You could, you know, read it and then we could discuss it.

The entire population must pay compulsory health insurance. The insurers are non-profit agencies that annually participate in negotiations with the state regarding the overall funding of health care in France.

Hard to see the Freedom Caucus going for this.


I don't know. It is market based in that the patient pays FIRST, then gets a reimbursement check from the plan, which is funded by PAYROLL DEDUCTIONS. The medical associations are unions that negotiate fee schedules. Doctors have to post their prices in the office. All that might be attractive to the conservatives.

France has big economic problems because of the Socialists and that has cut employment so that the health plan draws more tax money that was intended.

One significant problem is that British retirees in France sign up for the French plan and won't go home to Britain to use the NHS, I understand why but it is a burden to France, There are web sites (in English) that teach you how to sign up for the welfare section of the plan.

AReasonableMan said...

Mark said...
A single-payer system requires that it be illegal to pay out-of-pocket for medical treatment or to have some other privately-arranged payment mechanism.


This will be news to much of Europe as well as Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

Laslo Spatula said...

"So why did Trump say he supported it? Why did Trump work on trying to pass it?"

He was Playing the Game Their Way, which is what the Real Republicans wanted. If it worked he could use his vocal support to leverage Congress to fall in line with, say, Immigration. You scratch my back, etc.

If it didn't work, they can't say he didn't try; now on to methods he has more confidence in.

Not a 'Trump supporter': just a supporter of anyone who can break this shit up.

I don't care about Stolen Bread.

I am Laslo.



sunsong said...

From Peggy Noonan:

“…We go now to the failure of the ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill.
“Politically it’s all obvious. For the new administration it is a loss and a significant one. It has damaged the new president’s prestige. Every president until he fails has the aura of unused power. Boy, when I use it, you’re gonna see muscle. He used it. No muscle. Fatal? No. Damaging and diminishing? Yes. It is an embarrassment too for Speaker Paul Ryan. Together they could not get a win on the board after they threw everything they have into it. This does not speak well for everything they have.

They picked the wrong issue at the wrong time and pursued it in the wrong way.
(“Constituent, should we focus on a better tax system or on health care?” “Um, if you go with health care can it include suicide coverage?

“The failure of the bill demonstrated something no president, especially a new one, ever wants made public. That is that Republicans in the House do not really fear him…
“…The president made a political mistake in throwing his lot with the leadership, and then conservatives, not Republican moderates, and then Democrats.

“A mere poll probably contributed to the collapse of support. That would be the Quinnipiac survey published Thursday, just hours before the delay in the vote. It found the repeal-and-replace bill highly unpopular. Only 17% of respondents approved of the bill, with 56% opposed and 26% undecided. Bloomberg’s Sahil Kapur, reading the cross tabs, noted on Twitter that the bill was 26 points underwater among noncollege whites, and an astounding 46 points underwater among voters 50 to 64. “This is Trump’s base,” Mr. Kapur noted…”


Peggy Noonan

Mark said...

If there is some other payer, then it is necessarily not "single-payer."

Michael K said...

A single-payer system requires that it be illegal to pay out-of-pocket for medical treatment or to have some other privately-arranged payment mechanism.

Canada did that but the Supreme Court has ruled it has to allow private clinics and many Canadians come here for care and have US based insurance, or did before Obama.

Britain does not make it illegal and the unions tried to bar private patients from NHS hospitals but failed. There are private hospitals in Britain and, the last time I checked, 25% of the population of southeast England, the only part with a positive GDP, has private insurance,.

Original Mike said...

HillaryCare was written to make paying for your own health care virtually impossible.

Unknown said...

It's not I that you need to convince MichaelK on the French system, I agree that it works wonderfully in France. It's the Trumpists that you will need to convince.

Ann Althouse said...

"Google the ghost-writer who explains how it was all made up."

And we should believe this guy's politically motivated, self-aggrandized telling of the story because...???

sunsong said...

From Phillip Klein:

“Broken promises are as old as politics itself, and there are many famous examples of them in modern history. President George H.W. Bush's "read my lips, no new taxes" pledge comes immediately to mind, as does President Bill Clinton reneging on his middle-class tax cut, and President Barack Obama never closing Guantanamo Bay. But in each of those cases, those were promises that were made in a given campaign by a given politician. The promise of Obamacare repeal is much different.

“Republicans ran on repealing and replacing Obamacare for seven years, over the course of four election cycles. They won the House majority in 2010 in large part because of the backlash against the passage of Obamacare — and the vow to "repeal and replace" Obamacare was part of their "Pledge to America" campaign document that year. The botched rollout of Obamacare helped them win the Senate in 2014. House candidates, Senate candidates, gubernatorial candidates, and even state legislative candidates ran against Obamacare — and won.

“Though President Trump was always an unorthodox candidate on healthcare (vacillating between praising single-payer and touting a free market plan), he consistently campaigned on repealing and replacing Obamacare, and exploited news of spiking premiums in the weeks leading up to the presidential election…”

Phillip Klein

Original Mike said...

Blogger exiledonmainstreet said..."I didn't want this version of the bill to pass either so I'm perfectly fine with Trump's so- called "big defeat. The Dems still own Ocare and are responsible for it's failures. sunsong and Bedpan Inga are too stupid to see that, of course."

I don't know how the politics will fall out but this was a bad bill and I am not sad to see it fail.

Ann Althouse said...

Trump writes his own tweets, doesn't he?

Michael K said...

Blogger Unknown said...
Michael K,

Don't you need to go to Washington DC and save healthcare,


This is the second time you have posted this snark and is the reason it is impossible to have any intelligent discussion with you.

You just troll.

Michael K said...

Here is the reason why the Democrats are on a suicide mission with Gorsuch.

And it may solve the healthcare bill problem.

Ann Althouse said...

I don't think Trump sat over a keyboard composing sentences, but I think the ideas and the manner of expression came from him... probably.

Aren't there some ghostwriter ethics to be followed?

I had a colleague who sought to enlist me in ghostwriting and it seemed hugely problematic for many reasons, not the least of which was the relationship I'd be getting into. But I did want to help him with something I thought was important. I just couldn't give what I have to give in that way.

Other people can. What kind of people are they?

Laslo Spatula said...

By the way, I agree with many of the left-leaning commenters here, and in other related posts:

The Real Republicans had YEARS to put together the Best Plan They Could.

But they didn't do their homework. They waited until the night before the Term Paper was due and then cobbled together some shit in the hopes of squeaking out a C-minus.

And THOSE are whom Real Republicans want us to elect.

Again:

Not a 'Trump supporter': just a supporter of anyone who can break this shit up.

I am Laslo.

Bruce Hayden said...

"He has to know that a filibuster is a suicide mission. Maybe he can get five Senators to vote for Gorsuch but they would be primaried by the nut cases"

I think that the primary threat is really hollow for a lot of the Trump state Senators running next year for reelection. We are registered in MT, where our senior Senator is Jon Testor (after Backus retired due to his role in enacting Obamacare). Last time he ran, he pretended to be still a Montanan, and all his ads showed him driving a tractor or combine on the family farm. He is already far to the left of the state - how is anyone going to successfully run to the left of him, then expect to win the general election? Add to this that it is likely that Trump will come campaign in those states where there is a decent chance at flipping the Senate seat (like MT), where people would drive a couple hours to see him in person, but may not cross the street to a rally for the incumbent Dem Senator. Esp if they have made his enemies list. I think that the best thing that these Trump state Dem Senators could do for themselves is to get below Trump's radar. Show that they can work with him, and are not, knee jerk, against him. Then, if they get a serious primary challenge, run to the center, which will position them for the general election.

Unknown said...

"You just troll."

No more than you do Michael. I am very serious about you doing some good regarding healthcare options and discussions, even if it's just here on Althouse. You know about the French system. You've said you like the French system, now is your chance to convince the Trumpists here that we Americans could benefit from the French system. Have at it.

Original Mike said...

"Trump writes his own tweets, doesn't he?"

He writes a draft and then has a fellow, who may or may not suggest changes, actually type it in. Saw an interview with this fellow recently.

sunsong said...

From Ben Domenesh:

“…Yes, AHCA failure is a failure for the president, but it’s much more a failure for House leadership and Paul Ryan. They had seven years to prepare for this moment, and they failed to do so sufficiently.

“At some point, it is incumbent upon Republican leadership to reevaluate their approach. They’ve been complaining about a post-earmark legislative process for years – when will they realize it isn’t coming back?
“The point isn’t that the Freedom Caucus isn’t obnoxious. The point is that they’re not going away. An economically and politically self-sustaining conservative faction in the party isn’t a fad. It’s the way things are now…”

Ben Domenesh

Ann Althouse said...

Clarification: "Art of the Deal" doesn't have a "ghostwriter." The guy is credited on the cover as a co-author.

But there should be some ethics about how the duties were shared, and his going public about who did what without his co-author's support is pretty sleazy.

He's made a lot of money off Trump, but I guess he decided he needed to save the world.

mockturtle said...

Laslo, could it be that the GOP wants to keep Obamacare because it mostly benefits insurance companies?

Mark said...

“Broken promises are as old as politics itself, and there are many famous examples of them in modern history. President George H.W. Bush's "read my lips, no new taxes" pledge comes immediately to mind . . ."

And the consequence of that broken promise has been catastrophic for our nation. In fact, it can be argued that this was the single, primary cause of the destruction of our government and society we are witnessing today.

Bush's reneging on that promise led directly to the outrage that allowed Perot to gain popularity and which led to the election of Bill Clinton. At that time in history, the Dems were on their death bed. But they were brought back to life with the disgust over Bush's broken promise.

And with Clinton, we saw the ascension of Clintonism and perpetual spin and deceit in pursuit of power, and the rise from traditional Democrat to radical progressivism, e.g. Barack Obama, which has indeed "fundamentally transformed" America.

The Republican Establishment's present breaking of a core promise, if not rectified, could very well lead to the end of the Republican Party.

Laslo Spatula said...

mockturtle said...
"Laslo, could it be that the GOP wants to keep Obamacare because it mostly benefits insurance companies?"

Occam's Ouija Board says Yes.

I am Laslo.

Guildofcannonballs said...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/10/09/john-kasichs-claim-that-there-was-a-5-trillion-surplus-when-he-left-washington-in-2001-fact-checker-biography/?utm_term=.465f9316e705

We should apologize to Chuck for laughing at his journey into madness.

Chuck I was trying to be funny with the whole "you wanna get nuts, c'mon, let's get nuts" clip from Batman.

John Kasich's bald-faced-except-for-the-food-smears lies about a 5 trillion dollar (U.S.) surplus were and remain far, far more outrageously stupid than any thought, even unspoken, by our president, Donald J. Trump.

khesanh0802 said...

Will employer tax deductions for health insurance (or removal thereof) be part of the tax reform discussion? It certainly should be.
Food for thought.

For Chuck: There is no, nor will there ever be, a national consensus on healthcare. The parties are too far apart. Perhaps the only thing that can (should?) be done is take Obamacare apart piece by piece making whatever repairs are possible and living with the consequences until the pain becomes too great again. Maybe that will develop, if not a consensus, a majority. Pain avoidance is certainly going to be utmost in people's minds over the next couple of years of Obamacare.

Mark said...

could it be that the GOP wants to keep Obamacare because it mostly benefits insurance companies?

No "could it be" about it. Of course that is the case with many/most of them. That much is clear from the GOP crowd that keeps pushing for corporate tax cuts as the first thing that Trump should have done.

The Republican Establishment -- and the Democrat Party too and also many who call themselves "economic conservatives" -- are not all that keen on a free market, but prefer crony capitalism instead. They all have as their primary goal helping out their crony corporate friends.

Michael K said...

"Aren't there some ghostwriter ethics to be followed?"

When Sarah Palin wrote her book there was a lot of talk about a ghost writer. I read it and agree there was for a few chapters but you could tell the difference in writing style. The ghost writer seemed to me to have written the first couple of chapters and then the prose got much less purple and the rest of the book sounded like her. I suspect she did not like the early work and dropped the "ghost."

Somebody a few years ago posted some writing that they said was from her book and it was viciously attacked as childish and illiterate. Then the poster revealed it was from Obama's first book.

sunsong said...

From Byron York:

The Obamacare train wreck was a failure for President Trump and a disaster for House Republicans. That is, it was worse for Republicans, because they had been at it for so long, but it was plenty bad for Trump. When Speaker Paul Ryan pulled the GOP repeal-and-replace bill Friday afternoon, he said, "We will need time to reflect on how we got to this moment." For that reflection, here, in no particular order, are 14 lessons from the Obamacare debacle:

“1) Don't over-promise. Absent a national emergency, Congress cannot do big things fast. Don't promise a history-making legislative achievement in a matter of weeks. It won't happen.

“2) Jobs, jobs, jobs. The economy remains the public's number-one concern. Yes, unemployment is far down from its peak in 2009, but many Americans are making less than they did years ago, and economic anxieties remain high. Trump won the presidency on a pledge to create more and better-paying jobs. Taking up Obamacare as the first legislative project of his presidency was not consistent with that pledge.

“3) Find more votes. Unless there is exceptional unity on an issue, the GOP doesn't have enough votes to ignore Democrats and pass big legislation entirely on its own. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid (barely) passed Obamacare with 253 Democrats in the House and 60 in the Senate. Paul Ryan has 237 Republicans and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has 52.The GOP has virtually no room for error…” “

Byron York

Michael K said...

That much is clear from the GOP crowd that keeps pushing for corporate tax cuts as the first thing that Trump should have done.


The left simply has no clue that "trickle down economics" really works. When was the last time a poor man offered you a job ?

Laslo Spatula said...

Trump promised a better plan by trusting that the Real Republicans could actually make one.

Trump's failure is not in the plan failing but in trusting the Real republicans to do their job.

The appropriate "Animal House" quote:

"You fucked up... you trusted us!"

I am Laslo.

Michael K said...

"14 lessons from the Obamacare debacle:"

Nice of you to agree that Obamacare was a debacle, sunsong.

Chuck said...

Ann Althouse said...
Trump writes his own tweets, doesn't he?


I think so. At least the vast majority. Occasionally, I get the impression that Trump is sitting on a plane on a runway and he might hand his phone to Ivanka or Jared. Interestingly, I don't think that he ever hands it to Stephen Miller or Michael Cohen; we'd probably see the lawyer in those Tweets if it happened.

And it is just amazing to me, that Trump still does it. It has to be pure vanity. All of the stated, semi-logical messaging reasons -- it allows Trump to speak directly without a media filter, he gets ahead of every news cycle, he knocks regular journalists off their preferred schedules and narratives, etc. -- could be accomplished just as well if Trump had a Twitter Team composed of Kellyanne Conway, two lawyers and a media consultant.

Trump does his own Tweeting because he wants to and he has convinced himself that it works.

Just my humble opinion. I like that you and I have the same impression on this, Althouse.

I feel like I can read a Tweet, and know if Trump wrote it. Like I can read a WSJ editorial, and know if it was James Taranto, Paul Gigot, or Holman Jenkins who wrote it. Like listening to music, and knowing if it was Mozart or Haydn, or Sonny Rollins or John Coltrane.

Rusty said...

unsong said...
"LOLOL

This is now the pubbies' healthcare. They are the party in power and they own healthcare, and so much more, now...lol"

Um. No it isn't. By your statement though you are admitting that Obamacre was lie fron the beginning.
Liars gotta lie.

Laslo Spatula said...

You know, all this Talking Politics is really eating into my time writing Anal Sex Jokes.

I am Laslo.

Rusty said...

For the mouth breathers above who think this is a failure for Trump, it isn't. It is a filure of Ryan and the establishment republicans. Now the TEA Party faction of the republican party can put forth their equitable solution that dosn't require fascism.

Drago said...

Unknown: "It's not I that you need to convince MichaelK on the French system, I agree that it works wonderfully in France. It's the Trumpists that you will need to convince."

Can't have it without secure borders and reduced immigration.

It's the leftists that you will need to convince.

Guildofcannonballs said...

"But they didn't do their homework. They waited until the night before the Term Paper was due and then cobbled together some shit in the hopes of squeaking out a C-minus."

How could they write a bill years ago without leaving out today's new donors paying to play? Maybe even naive donors with no friends to lube them up in case the winds change and they get penetrated by those they thought they had bought off?

You notice the players are the same, generally, but not that the game has changed, meaning some groups that had more power and money have less now and vice versa, hence in order to know who will pay them the GOP had to spend some time seeing who would offer what bribes today, not who offered what to whom a year or few ago.

Unknown said...

Michael K,
We need to hear about why the French healthcare system would be a good thing here in the US. Come on, don't be shy now when it's important for you to show your stuff. You know the French system. You said you liked the French system. Don't chicken out. These people won't attack you for your views, now will they?

It's not me that you'll be convincing, I agree with you on the French system.

Bruce Hayden said...

@Dr K - I think that Hunt, in that article, being a lefty, understates the danger that going along with Schumer poses to these Trump state Dem Senators. But, I do see a way to exploit the situation. Instead of the three phase solution that was being proposed, do it all in one bill, that the Senate Parlimentarian won't allow to pass through reconciliation. Let the Dems then filibuster it to their hearts' content. Then, come into the next election loaded for bear, pushing that the Republicans passed Obamacare reform in the House, but couldn't do it in the Senate because these Trump state Dem Senators fell in line behind Schumer and his hard left constituency. refused to vote to cut off the Dem filibuster, and give the Obamacare repeal a chance for an up or down vote in the Senate. And that their Senator is more interested in appeasing the monied interests in NYC (which is, of course, Schumer's base - everyone hates them in these states, and can easily be made to hate him as their front man) than the citizens of their state priced out of affordable healthcare by Obamacare. Pushed by someone who can go around the liberal MSM to the public, this could be devastating.

Unknown said...

Most progressives wanted a Public Option and were very upset when Obama capitulated on this. Some progressives didn't vote for him in 2012 because of it.

sunsong said...

From Alex Simendinger

“Donald Trump campaigned to repeal and replace Obamacare in his first 100 days in the White House. He boasted of wielding a businessman’s negotiating skills alongside a determined GOP commitment to upend the old ways of Washington with conservative governance.
“But on Friday, his 64th day as president, Trump swallowed his first legislative defeat, after House Republicans balked at passing a health care measure they came to view as flawed and too politically radioactive to embrace before next year’s midterm elections…

“…(Trump never met with any Democratic lawmakers to seek their ideas before launching the repeal and replace endeavor after January.)…

“…Failing to enact health care legislation complicates Trump’s tax-cutting ambitions on several levels, White House officials conceded. To underwrite the revenue lost with potential tax cuts, the administration hoped to use savings achieved by repealing the Affordable Care Act…

“…Health care’s policy complexities, which the president never described to his audiences during his recent speeches and rallies, and internecine party politics swamped Trump from the moment he said the White House would have its own repeal and replacement plan. In a hurry, he switched gears early this month and celebrated the Ryan-crafted bill as “the plan,” after the speaker posted it online on a Monday night…”

Alex Simendinger

AReasonableMan said...

Noonan said...
The president made a political mistake in throwing his lot with the leadership, and then conservatives, not Republican moderates, and then Democrats.


I agreed with much of Noonan's article but not this. Trump needs a few catastrophes of this nature by the congressional Republicans before he can safely start wooing the Blue team. If tax reform turns into a similar mess, then he could start to distance himself and say these clowns can't get anything done and I need to work with both sides of the house. This assumes he gives a shit, he may be perfectly happy with the fact that he is president and you aren't.

Yancey Ward said...

This is not a disaster for Trump- it is a disaster for the Republican leadership in Congress. When I first saw the bill described a few weeks back, I predicted it wouldn't pass either house of Congress, and I was right.

I think, ultimately, the ACA exchanges have to collapse under their own weight before there is a real chance at passing anything meaningfully better. That is likely to happen after the next round of 20+% premium increases this coming year. Democrats, whether they like it or not, will own that failure lock, stock, and barrel. I predict that by next December, when the enrollment in the exchanges outside of Medicaid falls by 1-2 million over this years already lower number, you will see almost all the insurance companies making plans to stop offering policies. By Spring there will be a move to revisit this with a better bill, I would hope.

Chuck said...

Laslo Spatula said...
Trump promised a better plan by trusting that the Real Republicans could actually make one.

Trump's failure is not in the plan failing but in trusting the Real republicans to do their job.

The appropriate "Animal House" quote:

"You fucked up... you trusted us!"

I am Laslo.


Since Laslo has ventured out of the netherworld of perversity into Republican politics, let's just be clear that the alleged "GOP establishment" did its job for Trump. It was the Hannity/Limbaugh wing that defected. The Ayn Rand Paul contingent. Ted Cruz, the de facto Minority Leader in the House.

Now, I don't want to rule out giving Rand Paul, Ted Cruz and Louie Gohmert their say in Congress. Wait; I would very much like to deny Louie Gohmert any place in Congress. But the main thing for anybody who wants to blame Republican congressional leadership to the exclusion/benefit of Trump is this; what is Donald Trump's plan? The one that he campaigned on, and said was so great? Where's that plan?

hombre said...

Regardless of the predictable blather of the Dem/prog and "lifelong Repub" trolls here, Trump's error was to align himself with the GOPe hacks on this. Ryan is a gatekeeper to the swamp.

The recent gains of the GOP have resulted from the inability of the leftmedia to conceal Democrat inability to govern and the intransigent lunacy of the Democrat base. The GOPe is Democrat lite and demonstrated the same inability to govern with this fiasco. Trump won the primary by holding himself aloof from these lightweights.

Trump has many other promises and paths. He must get his Executive Branch in order, make requests of Congress and hold them publicly accountable when they refuse to deliver and pursue prosecution of the leakers and spies illegally plaguing his Presidency.

A good start would be to request McConnell to invoke the Reid Option if necessary to speed Gorsuch's confirmation.

Bruce Hayden said...

Why corporate tax reform? Because trickle down economics really does work, despite all the preening to the contrary. And because our current system is ridiculous. We have a small family company, and our marginal tax rate is higher than that paid by IBM, GM, Google, etc, and don't have nearly the same ability to push profits elsewhere, or to benefit from tax loopholes. Indeed, most tax loopholes are written by big companies to benefit them. So, on paper, our marginal rate is 39% and theirs is 35% or so. But in reality, ours is still almost 40%, and theirs is closer to maybe 10%. Maybe less. (And note that in high tax states, that means a marginal combined federal and state corp tax rate > 50% for many small businesses - luckily we are based in CO, where the rate is < 5%). And, a large percentage of new employment is by small and medium sized companies, the very ones hurt the worst under the current system, too small to buy special tax loopholes from Congress or push profits overseas.

Michael said...

If you walk away from certain defeat that is not a catastrophe but rather what is known as a "smart move." You have really lost nothing at all other than the time you spent trying to make the deal. As in any real estate transaction the person who didn't sell is stuck with the asset. Thus the Democrats own, and now really really own, ObamaCare. As do the intransigent grandstanding Republicans who caused the "walk away." The Dems and the press can snicker that Trump lost or was damaged or hurt irreparably don't get it. They are like the seller who owns the property that is going to decline in value because of new supply. They own it still.

Michael said...

Chuck

Cruz is a member of the United States Senate.

wildswan said...

I was pretty surprised at how unready the Republicans were. I did think they had a bill or bills ready and I did think they had had discussions so that they knew where they could compromise and thus pass a bill. No. Under Obama they, maybe, got a bit lazy. Nothing was going to be passed while he was there, so why work on details.

They also seem out of the habit of working at all as has the rest of the Congress and all of DC. They've had a lot of time since the election but seem to be "working" a three day week, six-hour day. In the old days that was more than Obama. (Obama has been cavorting daily in the Caribbean and the South Seas since he escaped from the White House. Anywhere But DC - ABDC is his slogan. Before he was limited to two weeks out of every month for escape and often had to have Michelle along for the look of things. And week-end escapes were usually messed with by boring speeches he had to give to pay for the use of Air Force One.) He's gone, Trump is a worker and the snooze-fest in Congress which has been going on in Congress is all too evident.

Trump will just move on. This wasn't a great victory but he's had setbacks before. And there's plenty to do with getting in jobs, building the wall, appointing judges, renovating the military, renegotiating NAFTA and repealing regulations and so on.

Hopefully the current Republican Congress critters will start working on achieving what they believe in.

The Democrats probably really felt a sinking sensation when they realized the Republicans could not agree on a solution. Because Obamacare is in a death spiral which means in real life sick people are facing death needlessly because of expense and limited access to specialists. The Democrats have to co-operate with the Republicans on a solution - that will be required by the people. But the Dems are also not used to working and have no answers and in addition are very divided, elderly and leaderless. They can barely handle responding to Trump's Saturday morning tweets without hysteria over being expected to do something on a Saturday. Or any day, really.

It's called work and it won't kill you, as my mother used to say. It's a thing the heartland weirdos do during the week so starting to work could be a bond between DC and the voters. And the bond can be built in DC without any of those bizarre safaris to Oklahoma diners which are now being reported in coastie deep-thought articles in Slate and the Atlantic and such.

AReasonableMan said...

Bruce Hayden said...
Why corporate tax reform? ... because our current system is ridiculous.


I agree with this. There should be a much more level playing field between small and big business. Corporate tax reform is a practical goal, but not without considerable buy in from the Blue team. Not sure anyone on the Red team has the political skills required to make this happen.

Chuck said...

khesanh0802 said...
Will employer tax deductions for health insurance (or removal thereof) be part of the tax reform discussion? It certainly should be.
Food for thought.


You are right, and I'd make that Line One of Chuck's national healthcare reform bill. And I'd expect a huge, debilitating national fight over it.

I am always amazed, listening to the great number of Trump-supporting Republicans with whom I socialize; when they complain about "Obamacare," I ask how many of them are covered by an employer's health insurance. And then, how many are covered by Medicare.

And ask exactly what "Obamacare" has done to their coverage; I ask them to be specific.

For Chuck: There is no, nor will there ever be, a national consensus on healthcare. The parties are too far apart. Perhaps the only thing that can (should?) be done is take Obamacare apart piece by piece making whatever repairs are possible and living with the consequences until the pain becomes too great again. Maybe that will develop, if not a consensus, a majority. Pain avoidance is certainly going to be utmost in people's minds over the next couple of years of Obamacare.

What everybody complains about, is cost. For the people on employer-based insurance; for the people who manage state Medicaid programs; for the people who have to negotiate Medicare's holes. It's all about cost.

Obamacare was designed to get everybody covered, without regard to cost. That was the intent, and at the same time, that was the problem. We need to bend the national cost curve; a gigantic, complicated, difficult, painful, decision-demanding task that almost no one will ever get credit, or even thanks, for.

Laslo Spatula said...

"... let's just be clear that the alleged "GOP establishment" did its job for Trump."

THAT Plan was "doing its job?"

Trump set up The Real Republicans to have their moment to Shine, to show what they could do, and he would support them.

And they showed what they can do: they screwed the pooch that ate their homework, and denied that there was dog shit on their dicks.

Again:

Not a 'Trump supporter': just a supporter of anyone who can break this shit up.

I don't care about Stolen Bread.

I am Laslo.

Chuck said...

Michael said...
Chuck

Cruz is a member of the United States Senate.


You missed the joke. It was intentional. When John Boehner resigned in frustration with his fractious caucus, he called Senator Cruz "Lucifer in the flesh." Not because Boehner isn't a conservative like Cruz; no, it was because of Cruz's extraordinary interference with House politics.

So much so, that there was inside-the-beltway talk about how Cruz, even as a sitting Senator, could nevertheless be elected to the position of Speaker of the House.

Okay? Does that help you get the joke?

Chuck said...

oops; neglected this exemplar CBS News piece on Cruz-for-Speaker:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ted-cruz-for-house-speaker/

Michael said...

ARM
"Mark said...
A single-payer system requires that it be illegal to pay out-of-pocket for medical treatment or to have some other privately-arranged payment mechanism.

ARM wrote: This will be news to much of Europe as well as Australia, Canada and New Zealand."

You can pay to get to the head of the line in Canada but if you can't afford that you are stuck in a triage system that can be nightmarish. Canadians routinely come to the US for significant and urgent care.
http://www.canadian-healthcare.org/page6.html "Under federal law, private clinics are not legally allowed to provide services covered by the Canada Health Act. Regardless of this legal issue, many do offer such services."

Michael said...

Chuck

thanks for the Republsplanation. I only became a conservative in my 30s, some 40 years ago and am not, therefore, a "lifelong" republican.

Earnest Prole said...

With the bill rejected — swiftly thrown away in a grand gesture — Obamacare remains, and the coming problems are all (or mostly) on the Democrats.

Are you joking? The storyline from the Democrats and their many friends in the media will be that after eight years of hostility, Republicans finally made peace with Obamacare — after all, they couldn’t be bothered to find a replacement even when they had the power to do so.

Drago said...

"lifelong republican" Chuck: " Not because Boehner isn't a conservative like Cruz; no, it was because of Cruz's extraordinary interference with House politics."

Boehner is nowhere near the conservative that Cruz happens to be.

The "Extraordinary interference with House politics" charge is laughable on its face.

What, all those poor and helpless Congress critters were defenseless against the Rasputin & Svengali-like charms of Cruz?

Now that's funny.

No, Trump went with the Ryan plan and tactics because lots of "lifelong" and Real republicans suggested a letting my those with experience in the show.

Okay, not out of the question. Not crazy. Give the guy a chance.

So they did.

And here we are.

Ryan has never in his career led or marshalled any effort that led successfully to important legislative accomplishment.

As of yesterday evening, he still hasn't.

Might he in the future? We are going to see.

BJM said...

ARM said...

Most single payer systems have an associated private insurance system for the well off. Companies, and governments, could provide supplemental insurance for their employees to reproduce the Cadillac plans, if they so desired, under a single payer system.

Yes, but without this wealthier demographic, especially the govt workers and unions, single payer would be unsustainable without hefty tax increases that the opted-out taxpayer may not be willing or able to pay and the system would quickly become unsustainable.

There is also the issue of Medicare...would seniors be folded into this "universal" system? Medicare is already financially unsustainable with 10,000 Boomers a day joining. I'm paying $804 a month above the paltry SS deduction, for a good quality supplemental HMO plan and am still out of pocket for copays and co-insurance for some procedures and meds.

How about the military? Medicaid?

Apart from the above issues, while single payer sounds like a good idea, equal implementation of quality care is difficult in a country with such disparate demographics and a huge geographical footprint. If single payer is seen to be unfair it will become very unpopular, which translates into votes.

Even if a govt can begin with a relatively clean slate, as the Brits did after WWII, single payer is not sustainable long term as the failing NHS demonstrates.

I don't know the answer to this dilemma, but I'm damned sure our political class doesn't.



Chuck said...

Drago said...
...
Ryan has never in his career led or marshalled any effort that led successfully to important legislative accomplishment.


And neither has Donald Trump. And we would have certainly said the same about Barack Obama in 2008.

The difference between them, is that Paul Ryan knows more about Congressional budget writing, and has better conservative instincts, than either Trump or Obama.


Yancey Ward said...

Chuck,

The condemnation of Ryan is more pertinent- Trump wasn't in Congress, so it isn't his job to get legislation to his own desk. And, Obama, though a Senator, wasn't in the party leadership at any time.

There really are no excuses for Ryan here that hold water- this is his failure, though I have sympathy for him as his job seems to be that of cat herder.

Chuck said...

Yancey Ward said...
Chuck,

The condemnation of Ryan is more pertinent- Trump wasn't in Congress, so it isn't his job to get legislation to his own desk. And, Obama, though a Senator, wasn't in the party leadership at any time.

The criticism is that Trump has no experience in getting big legislative agendas passed. You wanna know who does have such a record? John Kasich does, as a Congressman and as Governor. Mitt Romney did, as Governor of Massachusetts. Jeb Bush did, in Florida, and to a lesser extent so did George, in Texas (a major, nationally-influential tort reform overhaul that was a very big part in Texas's inspirational economic growth). John McCain did; albeit in a dubious cause (Bipartisan Campaign Finance Reform).

Laslo Spatula said...

"The difference between them, is that Paul Ryan knows more about Congressional budget writing, and has better conservative instincts, than either Trump or Obama."

Yes: his Health Plan surely showed all of those qualities.

Again:

Trump set up The Real Republicans to have their moment to Shine, to show what they could do, and he would support them.

And they showed what they can do: they screwed the pooch that ate their homework, and denied that there was dog shit on their dicks.

I am Laslo.

damikesc said...

That's a key insight. Being desperate means you'll sign ANY deal, no matter how bad. That doesn't help anybody. Best to show that you're willing to walk away and let a deal die.

Everyone knew Trump was bluffing because he never had a real plan. During the campaign Trump promised that he had a plan that could deliver healthcare to everyone that would be better, cheaper, and would get rid of the individual mandate.

...he then allowed the House GOP to do their bill and see how bad it crashed and burned. Now, his bill is a far better alternative.

The administration already canceled the paid for ads that were meant to get folks to sign up before the enrollment period ended.

They were well below enrollment estimates with the ads. At a certain point, you have to stop wasting the money.

This is now the pubbies' healthcare. They are the party in power and they own healthcare, and so much more, now...lol

ITT, Progressives are giddy that Obamacare is a disaster after spending years pimping how good it is.

Since Laslo has ventured out of the netherworld of perversity into Republican politics, let's just be clear that the alleged "GOP establishment" did its job for Trump. It was the Hannity/Limbaugh wing that defected. The Ayn Rand Paul contingent. Ted Cruz, the de facto Minority Leader in the House.

There were bills that passed Congress when Obama was President.

Why weren't they introduced?

Why this new monstrosity?

Chuck said...

damikesc: LOL; you're telling us that Trump has an actual healthcare reform bill? C'mon, man...

Michael K said...

"Come on, don't be shy now when it's important for you to show your stuff. "

I assume this is just more trolling. I provided a link to the posts I wrote nearly ten years ago on what a good reform would look like., They are also linked on Chicago Boys. Nothing stops you from reading and asking about issues you have questions about.

You know nothing and keep alternating between nasty little comments about why I don;t go to DC and fix it and trying to sound honest.

A couple of days ago, I did point out that I volunteered in 1995 and found that the new GOP Congress would write any health legislation with tax lawyers and were not interested in provider input. I knew the people who were the source of much of Hillarycare. They were at Dartmouth and, like Ezekial Emmanuel, had no experience in real health care providing.

I have little confidence that Republicans will do much better than Democrats on this issue.

The best result would be to go back to catastrophic insurance and cash for primary care. Inadvertently, Obamacare was creating that market as doctors drop out.

Probably the only reason the French were able to design a good plan was that the designers were in exile and the Germans occupied France and destroyed all the institutions that might have opposed it.

You are just trolling.

Laslo Spatula said...

"Since Laslo has ventured out of the netherworld of perversity..."

I will argue that Perversity is not a "netherworld" but rather the Real World we live in and pretend to ignore.

Like pretending that a man believing he is a woman makes him a woman.

Or:

Like pretending that Super Models don't occasionally get diarrhea.

Choose which works best for you.

I am Laslo.

damikesc said...

Chuck, there is an issue that I'm not sure you would like to admit is there, but it is there.

Perception.

Conservatives AND moderates watched, for years, the Republicans pass repeal laws regularly to be killed by Obama.

But when they FINALLY had a chance to get "what they want", they propose something vastly different and not appreciably better than what is already there.

Why? Why did they "chicken out" when they had their chance at achieving their long-stated goal?

The answer that will come to many people's minds is "They never wanted it in the first place".

Which is going to hurt the turnout for the 2018 elections. Keeping the House is no guarantee and the Senate is hardly a rock solid thing now. The GOP could lose both because enough voters think they are not serious about the things they've claimed they were serious about.

damikesc said...

damikesc: LOL; you're telling us that Trump has an actual healthcare reform bill? C'mon, man...

Chuck, Ryan was able to pass a repeal bill, with few problems, several times. Why did he not produce those exact bills here?

Does Trump have a plan? Dunno. Did Ryan want to repeal Obamacare? I have my doubts.

Mark said...

There really are no excuses for Ryan here that hold water- this is his failure, though I have sympathy for him as his job seems to be that of cat herder

He deserves zero sympathy and zero excuses. Simply bring to the floor the exact same bill that passed both the House and Senate last year. But he refused to do so. He is a fraud and part of the problem.

Chuck said...

damikesc:

I don't want to go too far in defending the now-failed House bill. I'm not so sure that there is much of it that I want to defend at all.

More than anything, what I want to criticize is the notion that it should have gotten rolled out and shoved into the process so fast. THAT mistake, the big one that led to all the other mistakes, seems to have been directed from the White House. Trump has essentially said that it was his mistake to have gone with a big healthcare bill first, and not a tax reform/tax cut bill. It was a mistake along the lines of, and on a much higher order than, the stupid Travel Ban Order Version 1.0.

Anyway, Trump repeatedly said he had a plan. And he talked about it in that uniquely sneering Trump way; it was going to be great, and everybody was going to get coverage at lower rates with better coverage and why haven't the idiots in Washington already done it? A great negotiator could get it done. Alright maybe only One Great Negotiator. The ONE GUY could do it.

But he didn't do it. I'm not so sure he tried to do it. I don't think he has any of the knowledge, skill or experience needed to do it.

Laslo Spatula said...

"More than anything, what I want to criticize is the notion that it should have gotten rolled out and shoved into the process so fast. THAT mistake, the big one that led to all the other mistakes, seems to have been directed from the White House."

The problem was there wasn't enough time?

Again:

The Real Republicans had YEARS to put together the Best Plan They Could.

But they didn't do their homework. They waited until the night before the Term Paper was due and then cobbled together some shit in the hopes of squeaking out a C-minus.

And THOSE are whom Real Republicans want us to elect.

I don't care about Stolen Bread.

I am Laslo.

Chuck said...

Mark said...
...Simply bring to the floor the exact same bill that passed both the House and Senate last year. But he refused to do so. He is a fraud and part of the problem.


But that was a repeal-and-defund bill only; did you know that? That bill did not repeal-and-replace.

Mark said...

What's your point, Chuck?

hombre said...

Interesting how the Democrats currently infesting the thread imply that Trump has something measurable to do with the creation of "Trumpcare," just as many assume, incorrectly, that Obama had something to do with Obamacare - other than lying about it to the American people.

There doesn't seem to be much disagreement that if left alone, Obamacare will do harm. But the Democrats embrace the notion that the pinheads they elected to Congress have no responsibility to clean up their own messes. Funny how they also fail to acknowledge that by 2009 the Iraq War was won and Obama screwed up the aftermath. Similarly, they fail to acknowledge the Democrats' role in the "Bush recession."

Democrats, like the GOPe, are swamprats. Trump is flawed, but he is possibly, maybe the last possibility, a way out of the swamp. It's Trump vs. the swamp. He got sucked into the swamp momentarily by Ryan. Hopefully, not again.

Chuck said...

Mark said...
What's your point, Chuck?


Well the first point is that Trump explicitly, repeatedly, pointedly promised to "repeal, a replace..."

The second point is that if you are a sitting congressman, and you vote to repeal Obamacare under a reconciliation bill and defund all of its mandates, you are left with legal mandates that are untouched, requiring the purchase of Obama-qualifying policies, with no subsidies. You'd be screwing millions of Americans in a catastrophic way.

Now, maybe the idea is that putting the country into that kind of bind would then force a new compromise; but you'd still need the 60 votes in the Senate to do a new bill. But it would be brinksmanship on an order beyond a government shutdown over a debt-ceiling.

Playing budgetary chicken with people's healthcare and lives.

Chuck said...

hombre said...
...
Democrats, like the GOPe, are swamprats. Trump is flawed, but he is possibly, maybe the last possibility, a way out of the swamp. It's Trump vs. the swamp. He got sucked into the swamp momentarily by Ryan. Hopefully, not again.


Well, great!

I will sleep well tonight, knowing that we can trust Mr. Trump to write a bill and present it for national approval.

Mark said...

Of course something is going to take the place of ObamaCare regardless. If Congress did nothing to install something in its place, if government got out of financing and regulating the provision of health care altogether, health care treatment would still go on. The system would find a way to function.

But even if Congress were to return to the status quo ante of those ancient days of 2009, it would be infinitely better than what we have now. Better yet would be to go back before all this "reform" to a "new and improved" system back in 80s and 70s with rise of insurer managed care. Back to when the young and healthy and even the poor could get a major medical, catastrophic illness/injury policy for cheap, and most of what you received in medical treatment you paid for yourself, just as you pay for your own food, mortgage, car payments, etc.

Michael said...

I think this is the best outcome possible. The ACA will continue to wither away benefits while premiums skyrocket. Republicans should fund ads that begin immediately showing our former president promising you could keep your doctor and your plan and that you would save on average $2500 a year. The ad should be cheap to make and should run over and over and over for the next four years. The ad concludes with the statement that it passed with no Republican votes and by a parliamentary trick.

BJM said...

I don't think he has any of the knowledge, skill or experience needed to do it.

Unlike Obama's vast store of healthcare knowledge, legislative skillz and administrative experience.

Mark said...

Well the first point is that Trump explicitly, repeatedly, pointedly promised to "repeal, a replace..."

I know you have this stalker's pseudo-sexual obsession with Trump, but I and most of the people here could give a rat's ass about Trump. We are talking about the destruction of our entire health care system with ObamaCare. And long before Trump, the Republicans were promising to repeal it.

A far greater problem is the "leadership" of the likes of Romney, the grandfather of ObamaCare, and McCain and Ryan and Jeb and Kasich -- whom you praise -- who are the ones who got us in the CF place where we are today.

Mark said...

Republicans should fund ads that . . .

And the point being??

To elect Republicans?????? Screw them. The response of EVERY person to see such an ad will be, "You are in a position NOW to fix it. You haven't. Instead you have tried to feed us a bunch of shit that we are supposed to eat and like it. Why the hell should we EVER vote for you?"

This isn't about winning fucking elections Michael. It is about saving the damn country.

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