January 26, 2017

"The peso is tumbling after Mexico's president, Enrique Peña Nieto, says he won't meet with US president Donald Trump."

Business Insider reports.

Trump likes to say you have to be willing to walk away from a deal.

ADDED: The next presidential election in Mexico is in 2018, and the incumbent is not eligible to run. So Nieto has no election to worry about. According to Wikipedia:
Peña Nieto began his term as President with an approval rating of approximately 50%, but the falling value of the Mexican Peso and sluggish economic growth had caused this figure to drop to 35% by 2015. Prone to gaffes, Nieto has also faced several major controversies as President.... According to the Newspaper Reforma, by August 2016, Peña Nieto's approval ratings had dropped to 23% - the lowest for any president since the paper began opinion polling in 1995. The approval decreased more by January 19, 2017, remaining at 12%.
He won the election in 2012 with 38% of the vote.

ADDED: What would Trump do if he — with his art-of-the-deal genius — were in Nieto's position?

99 comments:

rehajm said...

Mexico is already paying...

mockturtle said...

After saying he would aid and abet the Mexican illegals living in the US, President 'Grandson' has already projected his clear hostility to Trump's policies--the policies of our freely-elected President. Let him lie in his own unkempt bed.

John said...

Peña Nieto also said that he would stop exporting to the US if President Trump doesn't back down.

Something like 80% of their exports go to the US. What's he going to do, shut his economy down? I can't think of anything uniquely Mexican that can't be made in the US or purchased elsewhere.

We buy 20mm barrels of oil a month from Mexico. What are they going to do with that oil? If they can find someone else to buy it, how do they get it there? That requires ships, ports, pipelines to ports etc.

Let him hold his breath and stamp his feet till he turns blue.

I've got a dollar that says he and President Trump meet as planned. Possible a delay of a week just for appearance sake.

John Henry

Seeing Red said...

Kabuki.

The current president has done some good things down there.


I think we should just institute some of their illegal alien laws.


Maybe that's the way to go.

To be fair. And diverse.

Original Mike said...

"Trump likes to say you have to be willing to walk away from a deal."

This is why I'm a bad negogiator. Once I decide I want something, I want it. At that point, the price doesn't matter much. If it's something I can't afford, I don't look at it in the first place.

Big Mike said...

What John wrote. If Peña Nieto wants to lose more money killing his economy than he'd spend paying for all or most of Trump's fence I guess that's his country to wreck, but still ...

Turns out NAFTA was a two-edged sword.

Original Mike said...

"Peña Nieto also said that he would stop exporting to the US if President Trump doesn't back down."

Absurd. Don't make threats you can't make good on.

Original Mike said...

"Peña Nieto also said that he would stop exporting to the US if President Trump doesn't back down."

Guess Trump just solved our problem of US companies moving factories to Mexico. The guy's amazing.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

That let's Trump off the hook. They can meet after the wall is built or at least underway. But wrecking Mexico's economy is not going to help the problem of Mexicans wanting to come to the U.S. It would make it worse.

buwaya said...

Part of the deal in the making, unspoken, is shutting down the transport of Central Americans through Mexico to the US border. Most of the border crossers in recent years, I understand, aren't Mexican at all but Central Americans who are permitted to cross the (very short) Southern Mexican border on the understanding that they are just passing through to the US border.

mockturtle said...

I understand, aren't Mexican at all but Central Americans who are permitted to cross the (very short) Southern Mexican border on the understanding that they are just passing through to the US border.

And more than a few Middle-Eastern immigrants have taken this route. Some are apprehended. Who knows how many are not? If anyone thinks our southern border security is just about Mexican immigration, they haven't been keeping up.

Original Mike said...

"But wrecking Mexico's economy is not going to help the problem of Mexicans wanting to come to the U.S. It would make it worse."

Who's wrecking their economy?

eric said...

This could break bad.

For both nations. I like what Trump is doing and will be interested to see where this goes. But, we can't avoid the possibility here that mankind is ultimately filled with pride. It was our downfall in the garden of Eden. And if this turns into an us vs them thing, then people of the united States may start to resent Mexicans and Mexicans may start to resent us. It'll turn into a , "They started it!" Shouting match. And then where do things go?

I'm hopeful it won't come to that. We shall see.

Seeing Red said...

And I read we are helping Mexico defend it's southern border.

Original Mike said...

I've listened to Nieto and Fox get on their high horse and claim the wall is immoral. They never, of course, explain why it's immoral.

eric said...

And I just checked the peso. It's not really tumbling today.

Bit of hyperbole.

Seeing Red said...

Mexicans "may" resent us?


Really?


Por La Raza todo.


Have you seen what they want back?


Mexico has so much going for it. Weather, agriculture, tourism, oil, beautiful country.




FullMoon said...

Original Mike said... [hush]​[hide comment]

"Peña Nieto also said that he would stop exporting to the US if President Trump doesn't back down."

Absurd. Don't make threats you can't make good on.


Yep, a red line.

FullMoon said...

Serious question. Why is America so much richer than Mexico? Does Mexico not have the same natural resources? Access to same technology? Is it the difference in governments?


Original Mike said...

"What would Trump do if he — with his art-of-the-deal genius — were in Nieto's position?"

Pay for the wall and impose an export tax.

I don't think Trump's being very smart. Causing Nieto to lose face is not the way to go about getting money for the wall. There have been several ideas about how to have Mexico pay for it indirectly. Stop talking and do it.

Trumpit said...

All U.S. citizens should have to demonstrate fluency in Spanish - not European Spanish, rather Mexican Spanish, our Southern neighbor. This is a necessary step to foster the fraternity of man, and end the unacceptable Mexico/Mexican bashing and racism promulgated by our current unsavory president, Donald Trump.

So, Mockturtle and the rest of you Trump brownnosers, and bootlickers, hit the Spanish language and Mexican culture & history books. You must pass AP exams in those subjects or your U.S. citizenship will be revoked, and you'll be dumped in Tijuana with a suitcase of your belongings and a bottle of Tequila. Adios y buen viaje! Have a nice trip!

Fernandinande said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fernandinande said...

We might be missing Mexico's important cultural contributions.

Original Mike said...

Border patrol chief has just resigned. Along with senior management at the State Dept, a whole lot of housecleaning going on.

Seeing Red said...

Their Constitution?

Colonized by the French and Spanish?

Seeing Red said...

Trumpit.

Treaty of Hidalgo?

n.n said...

The causes of mass emigration need to be confronted. We need emigration reform.

Brando said...

"Pay for the wall and impose an export tax."

Original Mike--you're saying Trump would cave if he were Nieto? That's not the impression Trump tries to portray.

I'm not really seeing why Nieto wouldn't walk away here--what's there to gain? Nieto, despite not having to face voters again, wants to be viewed positively by Mexicans and they sure as hell don't want to see their leader grovel for the sake of a bigger, more powerful neighbor to the north. There's just no upside.

Maybe we'll end up giving Mexico some kind of "unrelated" foreign aid (to help fight drugs, etc.) that will be in the exact amount that they will suddenly decide to use to help pay for the wall that'll get at least partially built. Then, they don't think they pay for it, Trump can pretend they did pay for it, and everyone goes home happy.

Seeing Red said...

Pay for the Wall IF??? We decide to go that route?

Anglelyne said...

eric: This could break bad.

For both nations. I like what Trump is doing and will be interested to see where this goes. But, we can't avoid the possibility here that mankind is ultimately filled with pride. It was our downfall in the garden of Eden. And if this turns into an us vs them thing, then people of the united States may start to resent Mexicans and Mexicans may start to resent us.


Mexicans already resent Americans. Always have. (Or rather, they resent the United States.) Up 'til now, most Americans, unless they belong to a class, or live in an area, that has been negatively affected by the "Mexodus" of recent decades, don't give enough thought to Mexicans or Mexico to bother resenting them. If they had been paying attention, they'd be pissed, because the sheer effrontery of the Mexican government re illegal immigration is a wondrous thing to behold.

True, good relations with a stable, peaceful Mexico would be to both countries' benefit, and I hope things can be moved in that direction. But the status quo can't go on, and we can thank our own government for the place we find ourselves in - the massive economic dislocation of poor Mexicans brought on by NAFTA, and the subsequent wink-and-nod policies allowing Mexico to use our country as a safety-valve and dumping ground for the resulting problems. (And all the while giving the middle finger to Americans getting screwed.)

harrogate said...

"ADDED: What would Trump do if he — with his art-of-the-deal genius — were in Nieto's position?"

Walk away, and take to Twitter with an endless stream of invective explaining why he walked away.

Seeing Red said...

Then Trump goes aroun Mexico and isolates them.

OTOH.


Water. Build a pipeline from Canada and pay what we owe them.

Jack Wayne said...

First, I wouldn't raise the price of gasoline by 14-20% in one jump. That's why his popularity is in the toilet. Second, I would come to America and get Trump to agree not to make a big deal out of collecting for the wall until after I was out of office.

Seeing Red said...

As my dad said years ago:

We cannot have civil unready on our borders.



We have been the safety valve.

But they need to fix their problems.

John said...

All U.S. citizens should have to demonstrate fluency in Spanish - not European Spanish, rather Mexican Spanish,


Does Puerto Rican Spanish count?

Been to Mexico for work several times and had no language problems. At least no more than I might have in England with English.

Anyone notice that the Whithouse.gov site will no longer be bilingual? Just American/English.

Want to live in America? Become an American. That includes learning to speak the lingua franca.

E Pluribus Unum Out of Many, One.

The Hell with this diversity/division bs

Totally off topic but our current governor wants statehood while keeping Spanish. I think we need to become a state eventually. But not until we get our act together and not until we are willing to accept English and become Americans.

John Henry

Original Mike said...

@Brando - I don't consider recouping the payment through an export tax "caving", but you're probably right. Not his style.

Seeing Red said...

Read their Constitution and restrictions on people from other countries.

Paddy O said...

Mexico knows that the American political climate cares more about immigrants than Mexico does. They already have an economy built on bullying the least fortunate to leave their homes and work illegally in the US. That's their bargaining chip. The rich in Mexico will stay rich no matter what happens, but a broken economy will lead to more immigration, less tension in Mexico itself (He wants the poor to leave Mexico because the alternative is agitation).

Since for many Christian ethics begins at the border, Mexico will get a moral pass while Trump et al become the villains.

So it makes sense as a strategy. If you start from the position of not caring about your own people, willing to use them as pawns.

Anglelyne said...

Paddy O: Since for many Christian ethics begins at the border, Mexico will get a moral pass while Trump et al become the villains.

So it makes sense as a strategy. If you start from the position of not caring about your own people, willing to use them as pawns.


It's worked pretty well as a strategy so far. The fact that Trump got elected is probably an indication that the strategy may not be as effective in the future.

BJM said...

Pure Kabuki for home consumption. Peña Nieto's government recently had a taste of popular sentiment over gasoline prices, he would have an actual revolution on his hands if his policies closed the maquiladora plants and/or stopped the import of refined petroleum products.

Trump will reach an agreement both countries can live with, as neither really has a choice as the US cannot financially support unrestrained illegal immigration.

Anglelyne sums up the current status quo pretty well.

I live in an agricultural county in California that is dependent on Latino labor and the building trades are almost entirely Latino. During the winter many return home as there is little work. Most of these workers do not want to become American citizens, they love their country/culture, and in Mexico, for example, they would lose their right to inherit family property.

It is obvious that we need a mechanism to allow seasonal workers to enter and return to their native countries. The Bracero Program was tried in the 40's and 50's, however growers abused the system and it failed.

California is a different state now, we would welcome an orderly trans-border labor market and workers could come out of the shadows. The current mode is both cruel and unfair, which is why I do not understand the Left's non-negotiable position. They claim to care about these people but keep them in perpetual legal limbo.



Snark said...

Inspiring diplomacy from President Personality Disorder.

Seeing Red said...

This autocorrect geez



Civil unrest.

buwaya said...

"the massive economic dislocation of poor Mexicans brought on by NAFTA"

Which is the surplus population of Southern Mexico moving north to work in factories close to the US border, where the jobs are, and the more-rapid displacement of the rural population to the cities as US food (corn, etc.) undercuts Mexican agriculture.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Did you know that the United States, the country that invented the consumer society, the atom bomb, and the only country to send people to the moon, can not build a secure wall on its southern border?
That's what CBS news reported this morning. The technical challenges are simply too great.

Seeing Red said...

I read it wasn't just growers who abused the system.

The Mexican government robbed the workers by not giving them I think the money they saved.


I'm all for legal seasonal workers.


With the banking system safeguards now, it would be harder for Mexico's government to steal.

eric said...

Mexicans already resent Americans. Always have. (Or rather, they resent the United States.) Up 'til now, most Americans, unless they belong to a class, or live in an area, that has been negatively affected by the "Mexodus" of recent decades, don't give enough thought to Mexicans or Mexico to bother resenting them.

That's not been my personal, anecdotal, experience working on the southern border.

American politicians and Mexican politicians resent Mexicans and Americans. But, for the most part, Mexicans and Americans get along really well. Yeah, there are always outliers.

Or let me put it another way. Mexicans born in Mexico (who aren't wealthy members of the political class) tend to be very respectful and appreciative of America and Americans. Mexicans born in the United States who have citizenship in both countries tend to be outspoken loudmouths who are filled with every sort of anger and resentment.

Again, these are generalizations. But I think overall accurate.

And the same goes for most white bread, middle of the road, American. They love Mexico and Mexicans, for the most part. Hard working immigrants and makers of Mexican food tend to be their only experience, sure. And what they hear on the news. But it seems wherever I go in the US there are Mexicans and Americans living together and appreciating one another civilly.

sunsong said...

Good for Peña Nieto. I hope more world leaders do the same.

Scott said...


FullMoon said...

Serious question. Why is America so much richer than Mexico? Does Mexico not have the same natural resources? Access to same technology? Is it the difference in governments?


1/26/17, 12:16 PM


I'll take a stab, here's my two pesos on the subject.

First and foremost, Geography plays a huge part. America's blessed with a LOT of navigable rivers, especially the Mississippi watershed which allowed areas to be exploited, since water travel is a very low cost way of moving goods and people. This is especially true for bulk goods like steel, wheat, corn and so on (and incidentally a reason why you have so many major cities on harbors or river junctions). That was a major shot in the arm after 1804 and the Louisiana Purchase, and secured by the acquisition of Texas in the 1830s/1840s (since now New Orleans could not be threatened by a hostile neighbor). In comparison, Mexico has few navigable rivers, and is bisected by a mountain range along the spine along with some additional hostile terrain (desert in the north, jungle in the south). That made economic development slower.

A second major reason was that rather than a top-down viceroyalty run by the crown designed to loot the country as a personal ATM (Mexico), the US did not have a one-size-fits-all approach when settled (a mix of private mercantile companies, religious refugees, and so on). This allowed a more pluralistic and decentralized government to form eventually with major regional differences that allowed the closer to the ground actors to deal with their regional economic development questions. Such as water powered textile mills in New England, that would not work for doing cotton plantation agriculture in the Antebellum South, or vice versa during the first half of the 18th century. This also encouraged the adoption of cutting edge technology and management practices, because in a very real sense you were competing for workers and capital with your neighbors. In Comparison, the Mexican government tended to rely on diktats from the top, which resulted in some local problems festering (Mainly in the poorer south/Yucutan)and a succession of reasonably unstable governments. For all the hullabaloo today, we have been running the same governmental structure in broad strokes since 1788 with only one major upheaval. In this time, Mexico has had Foreign Viceroyalty, Monarchy, constitutional republic, military dictatorship, civil war, French-installed monarch, republic, military dictatorship,civil war, consitutional republic that wound up dominated by the PRI for basically half a century until 1988.

Finally, America has much more in the way of natural resources (along with land mass). This is coupled with a very dynamic system to raise capital to exploit them, historically. Mexico...not so much.

Fernandinande said...

Trumpit said...
All U.S. citizens should have to demonstrate fluency in Spanish


¡Que cerdo! ¡Como tu mama!

I Bet I Can Speak Spanish

eric said...

Blogger Lewis Wetzel said...
Did you know that the United States, the country that invented the consumer society, the atom bomb, and the only country to send people to the moon, can not build a secure wall on its southern border?
That's what CBS news reported this morning. The technical challenges are simply too great


They just can't help themselves.

I learned it can't be done because we would have to build the wall through the middle of large mountains and deep rivers.

Seeing Red said...

Aaah, poor sun.

Never read the article if the unthinkable happens, that the US, with all it's bounty, could exist and survive?



We are the most stable.


Can't really trust anyone else.

Grin.

eric said...

Blogger sunsong said...
Good for Peña Nieto. I hope more world leaders do the same.


So do I Sunsong. So do I.

Seeing Red said...

Que pasa, calabasa?

Or is it calabaza?

It's been decades.

Drago said...

sunsong: "Good for Peña Nieto. I hope more world leaders do the same."

Lefty sides with US competitors over America.

Unexpectedly.

Gee, how did these lefties lose the election?

It remains inexplicable.

Drago said...

BTW, Nieto is simply attempting to use the only leverage he knows he has: the willingness of the American left and major media to side with our competitors over America.

Nieto knows what his strongest cards to play happen to be.

Sunsong and pals working hard to nail down the Midwest for Trump in 2020.

Brando said...

"@Brando - I don't consider recouping the payment through an export tax "caving", but you're probably right. Not his style."

By export tax do you mean Nieto would tax Mexico's own exports to the U.S., or tax products imported into Mexico from the U.S.? I could see where both might hurt the U.S. in some ways (making U.S. products more expensive in Mexico, or making it more expensive for Americans to buy Mexican products) though for the same contrary reasons they could actually help America (by making U.S. goods more attractive to U.S. buyers). I actually kind of see what Nieto is doing right now (though who knows what he'll do next week) as very much in the Trump image--walk away from the deal, and only come back to it when there's something he can point to to justify it.

buwaya said...

"hit the Spanish language and Mexican culture & history books. You must pass AP exams in those subjects or your U.S. citizenship will be revoked,"

I can pass all those exams (there isn't one for "Mexican Culture" actually). And I'm not a citizen.

There is an AP Spanish Literature and Culture course which is actually excellent and of a very high standard, given its usual reading list. That is, assuming its done according to its prescribed contents. The AP test is allegedly quite difficult. Looking at the details, I would probably have to put in a lot of work to pass.

The list is long, uncompromising and eclectic - I challenge anyone to get through this in a substantial way, as a teenager in a year. I would challenge some of the selections but fair enough.

Isabel Allende, "Dos palabras"
Anónimo, "Romance de la pérdida de Alhama"
Anónimo, Lazarillo de Tormes (Prólogo; Tratados 1, 2, 3, 7)
Gustavo Adolfo Bécquer, Rima LIII ("Volverán las oscuras golondrinas")
Jorge Luis Borges, "Borges y yo"
Jorge Luis Borges, "El Sur"
Julia de Burgos, "A Julia de Burgos"
Miguel de Cervantes, Don Quijote (Primera parte, capítulos 1-5, 8 y 9; Segunda parte, capítulo 74)
Julio Cortázar, "La noche boca arriba"
Hernán Cortés, "Segunda carta de relación" (selecciones)
Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, "Hombres necios que acusáis"
Rubén Darío, "A Roosevelt"
Don Juan Manuel, Conde Lucanor, Exemplo XXXV ("De lo que aconteció a un mozo que casó con una mujer muy fuerte y muy brava")
Osvaldo Dragún, El hombre que se convirtió en perro
Carlos Fuentes, "Chac Mool"
Federico García Lorca, La casa de Bernarda Alba
Federico García Lorca, "Prendimiento de Antoñito el Camborio en el camino de Sevilla"
Gabriel García Márquez, "El ahogado más hermoso del mundo"
Gabriel García Márquez, "La siesta del martes"
Garcilaso de la Vega, Soneto XXIII ("En tanto que de rosa y azucena")
Luis de Góngora, Soneto CLXVI ("Mientras por competir con tu cabello")
Nicolás Guillén, "Balada de los dos abuelos"
José María Heredia, "En una tempestad"
Miguel León-Portilla, Visión de los vencidos (dos secciones: "Los presagios, según los informantes de Sahagún" y "Se ha perdido el pueblo mexica")
Antonio Machado, "He andado muchos caminos"
José Martí, "Nuestra América"
Rosa Montero, "Como la vida misma"
Nancy Morejón, "Mujer negra"
Pablo Neruda, "Walking around"
Emilia Pardo Bazán, "Las medias rojas"
Francisco de Quevedo, Salmo XVII ("Miré los muros de la patria mía")
Horacio Quiroga, "El hijo"
Tomás Rivera,...y no se lo tragó la tierra (dos capítulos: "...y no se lo tragó la tierra" y "La noche buena")
Juan Rulfo, "No oyes ladrar los perros"
Alfonsina Storni, "Peso ancestral"
Tirso de Molina, El burlador de Sevilla y convidado de piedra
Sabine Ulibarrí, "Mi caballo mago"
Miguel de Unamuno, San Manuel Bueno, mártir

harrogate said...

"Lefty sides with US competitors over America."

You're conflating Trump with America and treating it as Fact that his "wall" is a good idea. You're doing this, not to make the argument that the wall is a factually good for America, but just to smear people who disagree with you.

Unexpectedly.

Fernandinande said...

FullMoon said...
Serious question. Why is America so much richer than Mexico?


It's not natural resources, or the other standard SJW excuses, because Mexico is far better off in that regard than Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, etc. (and most of Western Europe?), it's because Mexico has an average IQ of around 86.

"As a rough rule of thumb, an increase of 10 points in mean IQ [of a country] results in a doubling of the per capita GDP."

n.n said...

The Wall is throwing a spotlight on the rise of anti-nativism including immigration reform not limited to refugee crises. People are talking about the conflict of interests inherent to establishing the Pro-Choice (e.b. abortion, [class] diversity, Democratic leverage, social justice adventurism) Church.

Drago said...

Harrogate the economic illiterate: "You're conflating Trump with America and treating it as Fact that his "wall" is a good idea."

We have a political disagreement between our factions within the US as to whether or not a wall is a good idea. From a security vantage point I will side with Border Patrol groups and security personnel.

Trump is our President and therefore his policies, for better or worse, is American policy.

Duh.

Harrogate the helpless: "You're doing this, not to make the argument that the wall is a factually good for America, but just to smear people who disagree with you."

I understand your absolute need to make this disagreement something it is not, else as a snowflake lefty how else might you rhetorically win?

Mexico is an economic competitor of ours and has built in advantages in cost of labor and reduced regulations. By reducing corporate taxes and regulations Trump and his policies wiil make America more competitive vis a vis Mexico in terms of business expansion.

Nieto is in an incredibly difficult position since Trump and the republicans are going to make it very easy for US based businesses to pull those operations back into the US if Nieto pushes this beyond the limits of his leverage.

You, as a lefty, mistake economic and political reality for "smearing". You no doubt think any criticism of Maduro in Venezuela is a war crime or something.

Carry on Lefty.

#ThisIsHowYouGotTrump

BJM said...

Eric said Or let me put it another way. Mexicans born in Mexico (who aren't wealthy members of the political class) tend to be very respectful and appreciative of America and Americans.

Mexico has a very polite, respectful culture. The social niceties matter, for example one doesn't enter or leave a place of business without greeting everyone. Americans have an image of rough, macho Mexican men, however in reality they are very respectful of women and dote on their children. Sunday dinner at Mamá's is required, even among the wealthy and sophisticated.

Drago said...

BJM: "Americans have an image of rough, macho Mexican men, however in reality they are very respectful of women and dote on their children."

Well, if you spend significant amounts of time growing up within sight of the Mexican border you will see that Mexican men are very respectful of the women within their own family.

Outside their own immediate family or community it is a very different story.

Mac McConnell said...

Most of the wall has been built except for Texas. The rest will cost $20 billion, 20% of what US taxpayers spend in a year on government services for illegals. The money has already been authorised by Congress many years ago. We just skim a % of illegals' remittances back home.

Nieto's problem isn't Trump, it's his campaign backers the drug cartels.

Mac McConnell said...

"Why is America so much richer than Mexico?"

Read Churchill's "A History of the English-Speaking Peoples"

tcrosse said...

Good for Peña Nieto. I hope more world leaders do the same.

Knee-jerk.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Hey, Lefties, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and Chuck Schumer all voted for the 2006 Secure Fence act.
Jeez.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/109-2006/s262

dmoelling said...

Since a huge fraction of illegal immigrants are those who overstay their visas, how is physical wall going to help? In any event it is the US that is responsible for protecting our own border. There are not armies forcing openings in the border just people walking across. Make it less desirable here (employment restrictions etc) and the they will not come.

The USA does a lot of business in Mexico in services and business investment. I regularly do business there as an engineer. I stay in a US chain hotel, shop at the local Home Depot and rent cars from Hertz. The Mexicans I deal with are friendly, easy going and helpful.

The nasty vitriol from our president and others is beneath the USA and doesn't solve any problems. Low Class is the best I can call it.

Mike said...

Symbolism and follow-through matter, dmoeling. Securing the southern border sends a signal to the cartels and the coyotes that we will decide who gets in or not. The fact the ICE organization has not prioritized making sure Visa recipients obey the rules just means there's more work to do. "All of the above" is a good policy here, just like in energy production.

buwaya said...

"Since a huge fraction of illegal immigrants are those who overstay their visas, how is physical wall going to help?"

Considering the immediate problem is low-wage competition, one has to look at the source of this. Most seems to be people coming over the southern border. Controlling the southern border should reduce the flow. As you say, it will not remove the problem entirely, but it could certainly reduce it substantially.

As an engineer, speaking as another engineer, you have to deal in empirical matters. An improvement is an improvement, and you can't require a perfect solution vs none at all.

"Make it less desirable here (employment restrictions etc) and the they will not come."

Indeed. This has been tried, and it has led to great outcries re civil rights and etc., and it depends on a very large and intrusive enforcement system. Inspectors and informers, raids and roundups. Perhaps it will come to that too, but the wall is a less savage start. Perhaps that wall will suffice.

mccullough said...

Nieto is a lame duck. He doesn't have any cards to play. His successor will have more flexibility. His best course of action now is to remain silent.

Michael said...

In the alternative of The Wall we could choose to adopt the immigration policies of either Canada or Mexico, either of which nation will eject you on the spot if you are found to be there illegally. They do not kid around. You cannot go swanning into either country and set up camp and expect to prosper unmolested. Why we view ourselves differently is baffling, maddening and why we have President Donald J. Trump.

Gahrie said...

Peña Nieto also said that he would stop exporting to the US if President Trump doesn't back down."

The problem would be solved if he stopped exporting Mexico's poor to the United States.

Drago said...

dmoelling: "Since a huge fraction of illegal immigrants are those who overstay their visas, how is physical wall going to help?"


Since a huge fraction of the crime problem are thieves, how are laws against assault going to help?

Michael said...

Trumpit


Very funny. I will go along with that when the people in the villages of Oaxaca speak English to me.

John Scott said...

Peso tumbling?

Yesterday morning the peso was trading at around 21.25 per USD. It strengthened throughout the day to 21.05. It's trading now at 21.19. Meh. In currency markets a 1% daily move is fairly significant, but the peso as been fluctuating like that for sometime now. Just last month it was straddling 22.

rehajm said...

In the alternative of The Wall we could choose to adopt the immigration policies of either Canada or Mexico,

How inhumane. Where's your sense of decency towards your fellow man?

Drago said...

Gahrie: "The problem would be solved if he stopped exporting Mexico's poor to the United States"

Well, some of our (US, one needs to clarify for the lefties) problems would be reduced. But not Mexico's, obviously.

And, after all, the Mexicans are what is important to the "Make California Mexico Again" crew.

Drago said...

Tell you what lefties, we will treat Nieto with as much respect as obambi treated Netanyahu.

Drago said...

You guys remember Netanyahu don't you?

He's the guy whose election Obama tried to hack.

eric said...

Blogger dmoelling said...
Since a huge fraction of illegal immigrants are those who overstay their visas, how is physical wall going to help? In any event it is the US that is responsible for protecting our own border. There are not armies forcing openings in the border just people walking across. Make it less desirable here (employment restrictions etc) and the they will not come.


The wall is a mostly permanent fixture. Employment restrictions?

Those may last for four to eight years. But the next administration can remove them. Doubtful the next administration will tear down the wall.

Seeing Red said...

The nasty vitriol from the USA?


What about Mexican vitriol?


We did not write their constitution nor nationalize Pemex. Which screws them now.


ITA.

ITA adopt their rules. It's tolerant diverse and fair.

I also think Mexico doesn't allow non-citizens to participate in marches, etc.

Michael K said...

Scott had a nice summary of the issue about rivers, which were hugely important in our early history.

Mexico, like South America, has a system that originated with the Spanish (or Portuguese in Brazil) that does not stem from the Protestant culture of Holland and England. The Catholic Church has done no favors for its adherents over the centuries as it focused on the afterlife and not on personal prosperity as the Protestants did.

China had another culture that seemed to work well, especially with Chinese who are not in China where tyranny was pretty common.

The stupidity of the left is nicely illustrated by harrogate. Also,

I regularly do business there as an engineer. I stay in a US chain hotel, shop at the local Home Depot and rent cars from Hertz. The Mexicans I deal with are friendly, easy going and helpful.

Amazing lack of self awareness by someone who extols Mexico but stays in American facilities.

I used to spend a lot of time in Mexico but have not been back in years as the border areas, and even some resorts, become centers of a terrorist drug culture.

For a while, my partner and I had an active patient population made up of middle class Mexicans from Ensenada. I had friends there and spent quite a bit of time there. The economy was always corrupt as you could easily see with all the businesses connected to power poles with no metering.

Visa control, which is abysmal now, is the second priority after the wall.

HRM William said...

Pena Nieto is just the first of many leaders that will leave Trump at the alter.

HRM William said...

Insane.

"(CNN)President Donald Trump has decided he will seek to pay for the wall on the US's southern border by imposing a 20% tax on imports from Mexico and as part of a larger comprehensive tax reform plan, the White House said Thursday.

White House press secretary Sean Spicer said the comprehensive tax reform package Trump and Republicans are looking to put together will include taxing imports from other countries, like Mexico."

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/26/politics/donald-trump-mexico-import-tax-border-wall/index.html

R.J. Chatt said...

If the situations were reversed, Trump would employ his "Art of the Deal" methods by negotiating a deal with the US instead of having a hissy fit and demanding respect. I can imagine a Mexican Trump asking for a payment plan on the wall in return for help in eradicating the drug cartels and help in developing systems of good governance and fighting corruption and crime in Mexican society.

What's the downside of kicking Nieto to the curb? None really imo. He's a dismal failure and unpopular. He doesn't actually have face to save.

Matthew Blaine said...

The devaluation of the peso will add to the inflation they are already experiencing because of the deregulation of the state-run oil industry. If and when the leftists come to power we could have a Venezuela on our southern border.

Jon Ericson said...

Hi, Ol' '55!

DanTheMan said...

>>can not build a secure wall on its southern border? That's what CBS news reported this morning. The technical challenges are simply too great.


That's why there are no walls in, say, China....

Scott said...

What Trump doesn't realize about political deal making is that in politics, unlike business, your positions are pretty much out in the open.

In the private sphere, the parties to a deal have much more wiggle room -- they can retreat without public shame if they're cornered. In politics, however, verbally bludgeoning an opponent in public usually forces them to stiffen their opposition to avoid losing face to the constituents who put them there. And unless you really do have all the good cards, it's a stupid strategy. Trump is going to get burned if he keeps this up. And so is the United States.

DanTheMan said...

Mexico and Venezuela... poor countries sitting on top of oceans of oil. Only the power of government can bring massive poverty to nations of abundant wealth.

DanTheMan said...

>>Trump is going to get burned if he keeps this up.

Haven't we heard that about a 100 times so far? And hasn't it been wrong every time?

Anglelyne said...

eric @12:56:

I don't disagree with your assessment of who's who among resenters and non-resenters. But that leaves me puzzled by the foreboding in the original statement. The Mexican government (resenters) do not want the immigration spigot turned off (very understandably, from their point of view) and any attempt to do so will inevitably arouse their anger, resistance, and grandstanding. But why should that lead to suspicion and hostility among the (non-resenting) Mexicans and Americans living, as you say, "together and appreciating one another civilly"? You say "pride", but that's just a way of labeling already-existing contrary forces existing under the surface of mutual civility and respect.

Why would Mexicans who are "respectful and appreciative of America and Americans" resent the U.S. taking those actions necessary to secure national sovereignty, just because Mexican politicians, who are not so respectful, get angry about it? You can say, "national pride", and you'd be right, but that would also call into question the depth and sturdiness of the mutual respect and civility you describe.

mockturtle said...

Since a huge fraction of illegal immigrants are those who overstay their visas

dmoelling, how 'huge' a fraction are you talking about? I would guess it's a pretty small fraction.

Michael K said...

"Mexico and Venezuela... poor countries sitting on top of oceans of oil."

And remember what Tillerson did to Venezuela when they tried their tricks with Exxon.

Chavez responded by nationalizing ExxonMobil’s considerable assets in the country, which the company valued at $10 billion. The losses were a big blow to Tillerson, who reportedly took the seizure as a personal affront.

Only Tillerson didn’t get mad, at least in public. He got even.

Guyana, one of the poorest countries in South America, adjoins Venezuela to the East. ExxonMobil got rights to explore for oil off Guyana’s coast, and in May 2015, the company made a stunning announcement:

In the deep blue waters 120 miles off Guyana’s coast, the company scored a major oil discovery: as much as 1.4 billion barrels of high-quality crude. Tillerson told company shareholders the well, Liza-1, was the largest oil find anywhere in the world that year.

For tiny Guyana (population 800,000), the continent’s only English-speaking country and one of its poorest, it was a fortune-changing event, certain to mark a “before and after” in a country long isolated by language and geography.


Does that sound like Trump ?

They understand each other and Mexico had better do its sums again.

mockturtle said...

Ah, yes. Threats to nationalize US companies. Developing oil resources means hard work and expensive investments. The Americans and Brits do all the work but the socialists want to take it over and watch it fail. Just like the prosperous farms in what used to be Rhodesia once Mugabe took over.

chickelit said...

Tillerson has the business means to man the tiller of State.

jaydub said...

FullMoon said...
"Serious question. Why is America so much richer than Mexico?"

1. Because Mexico was colonized by Spain while America was colonized by the British. Look around the globe - how many current first world countries were colonized by Spain? How many by Britain?
2. Because the Spanish did not colonize in sufficient numbers to displace the indigenous population - they were there to exploit the natives, not to build a country. Not so the British and other Europeans who colonized what is now the US (and Canada, New Zealand, Australia, etc.) The seeds of Mexico's poverty were sown by the conquistadors; America's prosperity was developed from the earliest colonial times by people who came to build a new home.

Bryan Townsend said...

RE: "Peso tumbling" What a load of crap! A few days ago the peso was at 21.56 to the dollar. Right now it is 20.95 to the dollar. What tumbling? I am astonished at how fact-free news coverage is these days.