November 26, 2016

"While Cuba remains a totalitarian island, it is my hope that today marks a move away from the horrors endured for too long..."

"... and toward a future in which the wonderful Cuban people finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve. Though the tragedies, deaths and pain caused by Fidel Castro cannot be erased, our administration will do all it can to ensure the Cuban people can finally begin their journey toward prosperity and liberty."

From Donald Trump's statement on the death of Fidel Castro

The idea of "a move... toward a future" resonates with what Fidel's brother Raul Castro said about the death: "Ever onward, to victory."

The tendency, for everyone, is to think that whichever way they're headed is forward.

But there are some people who speak of "taking our country back," which sounds like a journey into the past. Trump's slogan "Make America Great Again" seems to express the same sentiment, but it's reframed — carefully, I think — to give the feeling of looking into the future.

88 comments:

Michael K said...

The past is full of failed experiments with Socialism. The Future is still to be written and many of us hope the lessons are learned. Not by everybody, for sure, but by enough.

Tom Grey said...

Make >> to make -- is the future. "Making America..." is in the future, making progress towards. Make America Great! pure future. Make America Great, Again. Both future but also clearly possible, because we were Great before; so we can be that Great again, in the better future.

Pretty Presidential reaction by Trump.

Lydia said...

Hard to imagine Trump ever sitting down for a chat for Justin Trudeau, the prime minister of Canada, who had this to say about Castro:

“It is with deep sorrow that I learned today of the death of Cuba’s longest serving President.

Fidel Castro was a larger than life leader who served his people for almost half a century. A legendary revolutionary and orator, Mr. Castro made significant improvements to the education and healthcare of his island nation.

While a controversial figure, both Mr. Castro’s supporters and detractors recognized his tremendous dedication and love for the Cuban people who had a deep and lasting affection for “el Comandante”.

I know my father was very proud to call him a friend and I had the opportunity to meet Fidel when my father passed away. It was also a real honour to meet his three sons and his brother President Raúl Castro during my recent visit to Cuba.

On behalf of all Canadians, Sophie and I offer our deepest condolences to the family, friends and many, many supporters of Mr. Castro. We join the people of Cuba today in mourning the loss of this remarkable leader."

Just plain embarrassing, if nothing else.

Anga2010 said...

It's all an illusion as we are, forever, trapped in the present.

Steve M. Galbraith said...

One of the more interesting (to me) aspects of the coverage of Castro is the failure to mention (NY Times, Post) that he (and Che) were begging the Soviets to launch their missiles (not the ones in Cuba but the nuclear missiles in the USSR) in the middle of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Che even acknowledged this a few weeks after the crisis ended. He admitted that it would have led to millions of deaths but he justified it as necessary to strike a blow against the "US imperialists."

Castro later admitted he wanted Khrushchev to initiate a strike.

Here's Khrushchev responding in a communique to Castro about a day later:

"In your cable of October 27 you proposed that we be the first to carry out a nuclear strike against the enemy’s territory. Naturally you understand where that would lead us. It would not be a simple strike, but the start of a thermonuclear world war. Dear Comrade Fidel Castro, I find your proposal to be wrong, even though I understand your reasons."

If Castro and Che had their way we'd have no future. Or much of a past either.

I'd call this just a little oversight on the part of the media.



Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Now I need to find Obama's statement and compare.

David Begley said...

Hints of Bannon in that statement with some Conway notes.

Anga2010 said...

It's all an illusion as we are, forever, trapped in the present.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

"We know that this moment fills Cubans — in Cuba and in the United States — with powerful emotions, recalling the countless ways in which Fidel Castro altered the course of individual lives, families, and of the Cuban nation," Obama said in a statement. "History will record and judge the enormous impact of this singular figure on the people and world around him."

Trump +1

Unknown said...

Putin, Trump's buddy's reaction to Casto's death.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/307545-putin-castro-was-a-reliable-friend-of-russia

"Russian President Vladimir Putin on Saturday offered his condolences to Cuba after the announcement of Fidel Castro’s death at 90.

"The name of this outstanding statesman is considered to be a symbol of an era in the modern history of the world," Putin wrote in a telegram to Castro’s brother, Cuban President Raul Castro, according to a translation of a statement released by the Kremlin.

Putin said Cuba under Castro's communist rule “served as an inspiring example for many countries and peoples.""

"Fidel Castro was a sincere and reliable friend of Russia. He made an enormous contribution to the formation and development of Russian-Cuban relations, close strategic cooperation in all fields.""

coupe said...

The island has been corrupt since before Jesus. Castro and his rebels were a nice guys compared to Batista and La Cosa Nostra.

I think it's the humidity. Same with Haiti, Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico. They are all places where people will kill you for your shoes.

SukieTawdry said...

Life for the ordinary Cuban will not change for the appreciably better until he is released from the yoke of the Castro "revolution." I have as much contempt for people like Justin Trudeau as I have for Fidel and Raul, maybe more as they should know better, the fools.

Steve M. Galbraith said...

"Castro and his rebels were a nice guys compared to Batista and La Cosa Nostra."

The hell they were.

Batista and his cronies were only interested in money. As long as you didn't bother them they left you alone.

Castro and his thugs ran a totalitarian regime that forced you to do what they wanted to do and believe. The entire society was politicized; there was no escaping it.

At least Batista let you leave the island. If you could. Castro kept you prisoner.



Terry said...

Moving away from socialism is not moving backward. It is a conceit of the ruling class that choosing any path other than the path towards more international socialism is "going backward."

bagoh20 said...

We can make our nation great again without making it the same as it was. In fact, there is no other way, because it is true that "you can never go home again."

The direction should be to make America the way it was envisioned - a place we have never been. Forward!

Steve M. Galbraith said...

Under Batista there was a relatively free press, free unions, free institutions, free universities.

That was how most of the society got together and rose up against him. Castro hijacked the revolution and replace a rightwing regime with a leftwing one. One of the leading anti-Castro groups in the 1960s was the JURE. They were a socialist group. Not all of the anti-Castro elements were Batista remnants.

It's simply impossible to rise up against Castro. He controlled the entire society - no independent press or labor unions or anything else. There are no institutions under the Castros where people could organize against the repression. Everything is controlled.

Jack Wayne said...

It will take a while but the books will come out telling us what it was like for the black majority to live under a white dictatorship. But it was for the Greater Good, amirite?

wholelottasplainin' said...

I spent Thanksgiving with the in-laws, and with a young niece who has long been a lefty, in particular as a Social Democrat. She works for a very liberal magazine in NYC.

She told me she and her husband and gone to Cuba for a vacation---and came back outraged by the poverty they encountered, and by the heavy-handed government that stifled all initiative and competition needed to drive up living standards..

"Nothing like what I expected", she said. "A guy on the beach told us he wanted to open a simple juice bar to sell drinks to tourists. But the government would take all his profits and give him a monthly ration of food in return. I was pissed. It was so unfair--and economically stupid."

Thus do [sensible] people evolve.





hawkeyedjb said...

Commies. I hate those guys.

hawkeyedjb said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mikee said...

What do you call the death of Fidel?
A good start.

I sincerely hope there is a Ceausescu-like end to the Party in Cuba.

Seeing Red said...

Well, Coupe, I read an article about Batista I think around the time Reagan died.

It was by an American reporter, I believe a lefty.

He said at the time for all of Batistas faults, living conditions were better under Batista.

There's a website I use to go to named realcuba.com

What that man did to his country.

I guess we should praise him for giving his serfs new cooking pots? There really wasn't fuel to heat them, tho.

This is why credentialed libs are stupid.

100 Years of socialism's failures, destruction, and death, and it's still we will get it right next time!


YoungHegelian said...

@mikee,

I sincerely hope there is a Ceausescu-like end to the Party in Cuba.

Sadly, I doubt it. The Castro boys have been old & in ill health for a long time. I'm sure that the apparatchniks have burrowed in preparing for the day when it will be them & not the Castros running things into the ground.

Seeing Red said...

Castro took their guns.

dwick said...

But there are some people who speak of "taking our country back," which sounds like a journey into the past.

Sure... except the whole 'taking our country back' meme didn't just start with the Trumpers. Let's remember Michael Moore's 'Dude, where's my country?' and the fevered imaginations of the Air America 24/7 anti-Bush crusaders back in the early 2000s - not to mention the ever-present Democrat/liberal/progressive dreams of returning to the US' post-WWII glory years of world-wide economic dominance and union labor.

MayBee said...

Obama has said worse things about Trump and Republicans than he said about Castro in his statement today.

Terry said...

Blogger Steve M. Galbraith said...
. . . no independent press or labor unions or anything else


A lot of people on the left will say that they are strong believers in free labor unions.
They aren't.
Any labor union that acts in the interests of its own members -- or is ruled by its members -- will immediately run up against the civil rights laws enforced by the liberal state. Seniority? Not if it results in racial or gender inequities.
A free labor union is exactly that -- free. If it decides whether or not it can exclude people based on race, or sex, or for anything else, it is free to do so.
If a labor union is only allowed to carry the social policy determined by the state, it is no different than the labor unions allowed in the Soviet Union or by Hitler's "German Labor Force."

Freeman Hunt said...

@Lydia How embarassing for Canada!

Michael K said...

I'm sure that the apparatchniks have burrowed in preparing for the day when it will be them & not the Castros running things into the ground.

Just like North Korea. It is basically run by warlords who are pledged to the fat kid but who would kill him if he crossed enough of them.

Steve M. Galbraith said...

This whole infatuation by the liberal/left with Castro has always been a mystery to me.

Liberals who opposed the Soviets or Chinese swooned over Castro. They just embarrassed themselves, made complete fools of themselves.

Trump is a fascist but Castro was just swell? What the hell are you thinking? Trump is a proverbial boy scout next to what Castro did. Not even close.

Jupiter said...

Freeman Hunt said...
"@Lydia How embarassing for Canada!"

You really have to wonder whether he actually doesn't know any better, or he somehow believes that some ultimate goal is served by pretending that Castro was not a total disaster for Cuba.

Maybe his mind is a place where people in tropical countries only exist to bring you drinks when you are on vacation.

buwaya puti said...

Highly recommended - Hugh Thomas, "The Pursuit of Freedom" and/or its update "Cuba: A History".

Both are, of course, available through the Althouse Amazon portal!

Hugh Thomas was, personally, an old Cuba hand with plenty of contacts even with the Castro government, and has some sympathy for some of them anyway. He punctures a great number of propaganda ideas, as to the nature of Cuban regimes, Cuban society and the structures of power.

Before ragging on Batista and friends, one should read this.

Its also evident that he loves, or loved, the place, because this is a much more sprightly work than some of hus more encyclopedic stuff.

I certainly will want to go to Cuba someday; it was part of the old Spanish Empire the family served for so long, and some of my ancestors were Cuban. My crazy commie uncle tried to defect to Cuba once. I'm fairly distantly related to one of Fidel Castros cronies.

Joe said...

For the US to have influence in a post Castro (both brothers) Cuba, doesn't it need a presence in Cuba?

Hagar said...

I am so old I can remember when some wag - it might have been Pat Moynihan - said the National Association of Manufacturers would be the last people to believe in communism. The NAM gave up on communism long ago as has China, Russia, and Viet Nam, etc., but The NYT and now the prime minister of Canada, young Justin Trudeau, still hang in there.
"Useful fools" indeed.

EDH said...

While I don't think Trump would initiate direct intervention in either Cuba or Venezuela, I do think he may have the temerity to foment popular uprising against the regimes.

Are the populations there sufficiently sick of socialism to respond, and what kind of regime would follow?

Hagar said...

Actually useless fools, since all they are left with is Cuba and Venezuela for display samples; the big boys" are all gone.

jaydub said...

It is my ernest hope today that the Cuban people act quickly enough to sieze Fidel's body, drag it through the streets and hang it from a lamp post.

coupe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rob said...

Let it be noted that taking our country back has an interesting provenance--Howard Dean in 2004 and Barack Obama in 2007.

steve uhr said...

The statement of Trudeau is sickening. I can't stand it when a politician speaks "on behalf of all ..." and I am included in the "all" without my permission and consent. Just speak on behalf of yourself.

Michael K said...

For the US to have influence in a post Castro (both brothers) Cuba, doesn't it need a presence in Cuba?

I'm sure this is Obama's theory, just as it is with Iran. Both are delusions,

Eventually, the Castro regime and its nomenklatura will be overthrown and "friends" will not be welcome. I suspect that lots of exiles will go back and make the place hum.

I don't know how long that will take but I know people who went back to Hungary 50 years after they fled.

EDH said...

Responding to Castro’s Death, Statements From Obama and Trump Couldn’t Be More Different

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the end result of Obama's overtures to Caribbean socialists was to actually hastened the demise of those regimes during the Trump administration, much as Obama has in retrospect done to harm the prospects of his own Democrat party.

buwaya puti said...

An awful lot of Cuba is nostalgic. I guess it is a childhood thing, but I can't hear this without getting all sentimental - it was more or less the theme song of the late Spanish Empire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLM5dNwxnHQ

Cuando salí de la Habana
¡Válgame Dios!
Nadie me ha visto salir
Si no fuí yo.
Y una linda Guachinanga
Allá voy yo.
Que se vino tras de mí,
que sí, señor.

I have never set sail from Havana, Manila rather often, but there we go, the feeling is the same.

And I did end up marrying my "linda Guachinanga" !

So there.

Bay Area Guy said...

For every fawning Castro supporter, including the idiotic PM of Canada, two questions:

1. If Castro was so good, why didn't he hold 1 free election in 55 years?

2. If Castro was so good, why didn't allow his citizens to freely emigrate?

Sebastian said...

"The idea of "a move... toward a future" resonates with what Fidel's brother Raul Castro said about the death: "Ever onward, to victory."" If you ignore the substance of what Trump said, sure. Trump's responses to various issues since the election have been encouraging. Either he is exercising good judgment, or he exercising good judgment in listening to people who have good judgment.

J. Farmer said...

Cuba has always been a dumb distraction for US foreign policy. It's been insignificant for decades. End the embargo, normalize relations and be dumb with it. Considering the motley crew of authoritarian strongmen and dynastic oil sheiks the US routinely does business with (or worse), claims to human rights concerns are obviously self-interested and hypocritical.

Gahrie said...

End the embargo, normalize relations and be dumb with it.

This is a perfect example of a Kinsley gaffe.

the current crop of Lefties actually make me miss Mike.

boycat said...

Every Cuban American I personally know is chomping at the bit to return home to Cuba when the commie thugs fall.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

It's called typing on an iPhone. But happy to see your reply is as boring as it is predictable.

Terry said...

Blogger Bay Area Guy said...
. . .
2. If Castro was so good, why didn't allow his citizens to freely emigrate?

Because they, and especially their labor, belonged to the state.
When it served the interests of the state, as during the Mariel boatlift, Cuban citizens were allowed to leave the country.

Bad Lieutenant said...

J-Farm, never mind the humanity then, how about the expropriation of US assets, renunciation of debt, and other material injuries by Cuba's communist regime?

n.n said...

Progress or monotonic change is an unqualified concept. So is liberalism, conservatism, etc. Principles matter.

J. Farmer said...

@Bad Lieutenant:

The US is a $14 trillion economy. Cuba is a bump on a gnat's ass. Beyond trivial in the grand screens of things. Consider the Saudi's support for radical salafism. Way more consequential for the US than anything Cuba has done in the last 50 years. Should we close the embassy and embargo their oil? Was Nixon wrong to pursue an opening with China given the number of US servicemen they got killed on tjeKoream peninsula two decades prior?

robother said...

Make. America. Great. Again. Each word of that slogan is loathsome to a Progressive.

Terry said...

Blogger J. Farmer said...
@Bad Lieutenant:

The US is a $14 trillion economy. Cuba is a bump on a gnat's ass. Beyond trivial in the grand screens of things. Consider the Saudi's support for radical salafism. Way more consequential for the US than anything Cuba has done in the last 50 years. Should we close the embassy and embargo their oil?

The reason we embargoed Cuba is because the commie government stole US property. Castro's government took US oil refineries without compensation. This is bad for the international order. It encourages crazy dictators to enrich themselves at the expense of future foreign investment in their nation's economies.
The Saudis have done nothing like this, J. Farmer.
Like many people on the Left, you do not understand the reason why the US placed an embargo on Cuba. You have been offered "fake news" that you wanted to be real news, and you swallowed it whole.

Bad Lieutenant said...

I dunno J, not much seems to bother you. I guess he didn't do anything to you personally, so meh?

J. Farmer said...

@Terry:

Take a peak at the Cuban Democracy Act and tell me that's about oil refineries.

p.s. I'm not on the left

J. Farmer said...

@Bad Lieutenant:

What was Mao's record at the time of US opening? Good or bad policy?

Bad Lieutenant said...

Is cozying up to Cuba going to help us break the Soviet Union? Did we lose 50,000 men to Cuba while killing a million or so Cubans?

Like you say Cuba is a pimple, who cares if we normalize or not? Are we running out of American and friendly foreign beaches, alcohol, tobacco, mulatto whores?

Why bow to them? You see no advantage to being steadfast? Russia sees advantage in being steadfast. So do most nations.

We have the ability to do without them for a thousand years. Let's see if they have the ability to do without us for a thousand years. I admit we should have grasped the nettle firmly in 1961 but there you are.

Terry said...

Blogger J. Farmer said...
@Terry:

Take a peak at the Cuban Democracy Act and tell me that's about oil refineries.

The CDA was passed in 1992, thirty years after the Cuban embargo was imposed.
I am interested in history, not your speculation, J. Farmer.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Also, how do we like it now, having empowered China? Mixed, I'd say.

mockturtle said...

Taking the country back doesn't mean 'taking the country back in time. It means 'taking it back from those who have both stolen it and sold it out'.

Any enemy of the US is to be embraced by the Progressives. Because they see US as the enemy of the world. It's really that simple.

buwaya puti said...

"mulatto whores? "

There are quite a few Habaneras on this subject.
Havana had a reputation, even way back in the 19th century.

The best known probably - La Bella Lola

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWla_OUjuzM

Cuando en la playa la bella Lola,
su larga cola luciendo va,
los marineros se vuelven locos,
y hasta el piloto pierde el compás.

Ay, qué placer sentía yo
cuando en la playa
sacó el pañuelo y me saludó.
Luego después se acercó a mí,
me dio un abrazo
y en aquel lazo creí morir.

The best approach to the matter of Cuba, I think, is the poetic.

rcocean said...

If you go back at look at the economic statistics you'll see Cuba Pre-Castro aka "Batista Cuba" was along with Argentina the richest country in the Western Hemisphere outside of the USA and Canada.

The literacy rate was 79%, so why Castro gets credit for "increasing literacy" is anyone's guess.

The New York Times never met a Communist thug it didn't like - whether its whitewashing Stalin and his crimes, cheerleadering for Mao, or mooning over Che and Castro. I find it disgusting, but evidently, Leftists don't mind concentration camps or dictators as long as they have free health care and attack Christianity.

J. Farmer said...

@Terry:

I'm not talking about what the policy should've been in 1963; I'm talking about what it should be now.

Terry said...

J. Farmer, do you understand that it is an axiom of history that future events cannot affect past events?

Michael K said...

I would be OK with what Obama did if he had just demanded a few political prisoners be released as a sign of goodwill. The trouble is that he thinks we are the source of evil in the world, not our enemies.

He is the same with Iran.

Cuba caused a lot of mischief in the 80s when Democrats were all Sandanista,

J. Farmer said...

@Terry:

Contra your claim, the embargo is not maintained primarily because of financial expropriation. Hence my reference to the '92 act. Go talk to pro-embargo Cuban-Americans. They are not motivated by oil refinery expropriation. The motivation snd rationale for the embargo has changed over time.

Michael K said...

" They are not motivated by oil refinery expropriation"

Ridiculous argument. Unemployed Americans voted for Trump because they think illegal immigrants took their jobs,. Do you believe that ?

Come on. Be sensible.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Buwaya, I understand that a major, if prosaic, driver of the Cuban economy is jineteras, i.e., sex tourism.

Terry said...

J. Farmer, I am not sure that you are actually making argument. The reason any law, or executive order, is in effect is because at some point some person or person in the government with the power to do so has decided to make it effective. Obama lifted what Cuba snctions he could by executive authority. Obama will never run for office again, his action was hardly democratic. The legislative branch is much more small-d democratic than Obama is at this point. If you can convince the legislators that it is in the best interests of the US to forgive Cuba for its malfeasance, you are welcome to do so.
But your opponents will be all of the people who have a claim to the money the Castro regime stole from them.

mockturtle said...

Here is, I think, the best article on this topic. It's by Maximilian Yoshioka of the Telegraph.

As Castro dies, another revolution sweeps Cuba. The market economy has arrived

Darrell said...

Sic semper tyrannis, MF!

Steven said...

“We all want progress. But progress means getting nearer to the place where you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turning then to go forward does not get you any nearer. If you are on the wrong road progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man. There is nothing progressive about being pig-headed and refusing to admit a mistake."
-- C.S. Lewis

sean said...

This sounds like some kind of boring old white man, talking about how horrible Communism is. Hippie chick Althouse despised those guys. Quid accidit?

mockturtle said...

Steven, excellent quote from C.S. Lewis, one of my favorites.

J. Farmer said...

@Michael K:

"Come on. Be sensible."

If there are pro-embargo Cuban-Americans who are basing their stance on Cuban expropriation of American property in the 1960s, I've never read it. If it's out there, link to it, and I'll be happy to consider it. Rather, I hear a lot about the nature of the Castro regime and its human rights record.

@Terry:

My argument is simple. The embargo and diplomatic isolation of Cuba has achieved next to nothing, except perhaps to provide the Castro regime with a useful form of propaganda. The financial claims the US has against Cuba are infinitesimal, and it is ridiculous to claim that they are the main explanation for US policy towards the island. The primary goal of US policy towards Cuba is regime change. Here are the conditions as specified in the Cuban Democracy Act:

"Once a democratic election is held under the watchful eye of the international community sanctions may be canceled. Opposition parties must be given a chance to organize and prepare for elections prior to the voting. Cuba must make the effort to move towards a free market economy."

American critique of Cuba has focused almost entirely on its lack of democratic government and basic human rights. This is a foolish reason to substantiate a policy given the number of authoritarian regime that the US does not just do business with but supports and shields from international pressure. Your remark about encouraging wild dictatorship is just another rehash of the silly "credibility" argument. The Communist Party of China got thousands of Americans killed in places like Korea and Vietnam, and they're one of our biggest trading partners.

Michael Fitzgerald said...

Excellent statement from Trump, strong, reassuring and statesmanlike. Typically weak blather from bimbo Obama- still eating his waffles...

J. Farmer said...

@Terry:

p.s. The US could likely make much more progress on its property claims in Cuba if it maintained normal diplomatic relations with the country. Isolation and sanctions are often poor tools for resolving such disputes, especially with the United States acting essentially on its owns. Major allies like Canada and the UK have largely been opposed to US posture towards Cuba. Also, it is not some kind of gift or reward to maintain normal diplomatic relations with a country. That's the normal state of international affairs. Ending the embargo and allowing unrestricted travel to Cuba would not only help deny the regime a valuable propaganda target, it would allow for dialogue between "ordinary" Americans and Cubans and help put hard currency in the hands of the people who most need it. As someone who has traveled quite a bit through Burma, I can attest to the value of such interaction.

jr565 said...

There should be a Make Cuba Great Again candidate who runs for president as Cuba. and his candidacy would be both a rollback and also a revolutarionary movement. What would make Cuba great again would be removing any and all communist elements once and for all

jr565 said...

J Farmer wrote:
"Cuba has always been a dumb distraction for US foreign policy. It's been insignificant for decades. End the embargo, normalize relations and be dumb with it. "
Why should we normalize relations if Cuba has not interest in changing their system or reforming? It just means that we become Cuba's meal ticket rather than Russia.
Let the system finally crumble. THEN normalize relations. What Obama did was what you suggested. And it led to exactly zero reforms in Cuba, but did give them a lot of money to continue operations.
Do we really want to make communist cuba be too big to fail? If its insignificant to our economy, then we can continue with the status quo and it means nothing to us. So, that is the better course of action.


urpower said...

Amazing how the phrases- "Make America Great Again" or "Forward"- suggest a whole mentality about time and national character.

Gahrie said...

J.Farmer:

Defending communism so you don't have to.........

narciso said...

That's because it was evaded in 100 ways by as many countries, whereas the south African one, the rhodesian one was air tight

Terry said...

Blogger J. Farmer said...
@Terry:

p.s. The US could likely make much more progress on its property claims in Cuba if it maintained normal diplomatic relations with the country. Isolation and sanctions are often poor tools for resolving such disputes, especially with the United States acting essentially on its owns.

You are suffering from very deep ignorance of the history of relations between the U.S. and Cuba, J. Farmer. Really deep. Deeper than the Marianas Trench. You have no idea what you are talking about. What in the world convinced you to say to yourself 'gosh, the world really needs my opinion, though it is steeped in ignorance, about US and Cuba relations?'"
I don't go around telling Civil War re-enactors that their uniforms are wrong, because I really don't know anything about it. Why in the Hell do you insist on mouthing off about your fantasies about US-Cuba relations? Nothing better to do?

Rusty said...

JF.
We've been over this before on another subject in which I have been largely right on the outcome.
If you recall the British diplomatic efforts with Hitler, you'll understand why diplomatic efforts with Cuba would be one sided. There is no advantage to Cuba with normal diplomatic relations with the United States.

William Chadwick said...

I wonder if the musical HAMILTON will close for a day of mourning.

J. Farmer said...

@jr565:

Why should we normalize relations if Cuba has not interest in changing their system or reforming?

Because that is not the reason you maintain relations with a country - to get them to change their internal affairs. China is also a one-party state with no elections or respect for human rights. Should we cut off diplomatic contact and embargo their products until they undergo internal political change.

And it led to exactly zero reforms in Cuba, but did give them a lot of money to continue operations.

The US has no business in trying to reform Cuba. That's the job of the Cubans.

@Gahrie:

Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Defending communism. Your arguments are beyond pathetic.

@Terry:

Why in the Hell do you insist on mouthing off about your fantasies about US-Cuba relations? Nothing better to do?

You took six sentences to tell me how dumb I am, but you didn't tell me what I got wrong or what in my argument was wrong. Nothing better to do?

@Rusty:

"If you recall the British diplomatic efforts with Hitler, you'll understand why diplomatic efforts with Cuba would be one sided."

Right, 2016 Cuba is just like 1938 Germany. Just when I think belligerent warmonger types can't bleed the well of that metaphor any dryer.