September 16, 2016

"President Barack Obama was born in the United States, period," said Donald Trump today.

"Now, we all want to get back to making America strong and great again," but before getting back to that he saw fit to add: "Hillary Clinton and her campaign of 2008 started the birther controversy. I finished it.”

Did Hillary Clinton's 2008 campaign start the "birther" controversy? The linked article, in the NYT, says:
During the 2008 Democratic contest, Mrs. Clinton’s senior strategist at one point pondered, in an internal memo that was later leaked, the ways in which Mr. Obama’s personal background differed from many Americans. But contrary to Mr. Trump’s assertion, neither Mrs. Clinton nor her campaign ever publicly questioned Mr. Obama’s citizenship or birthplace, in Hawaii.
Is that bait the Clinton campaign should take?
The Clinton campaign signaled on Friday that it does not plan to let Mr. Trump slide on the subject, pointing out that he has falsely claimed that the Democratic nominee was initially responsible for raising the questions and noting that he continued to question Mr. Obama’s birthplace for years after the release of his birth certificate.
This is forcing me to go look it up, because I honestly don't know the answer and I would have left this old issue behind.  I'm going to read a Breitbart article from a year ago, and then a CNN article from last May. After I've done that, I'll form an opinion about whether Trump or Hillary should want to bring this up now.

From Breitbart, "Bombshell: ‘Washington Post’ Confirms Hillary Clinton Started the Birther Movement." Writing in The Washington Post, David Weigel assessed a March 2007 memo from  Clinton campaign strategist, Mark Penn. Here's that memo.

According to that memo, which I'm reading for myself, one of the 4 factors that could hold back Obama was: "Lack of American roots." This was — I've long thought — a powerful argument against Obama, much better than the question of where he might have been born.

Since his mother was an American citizen, most Americans would say that was enough to make him an American citizen by birth, and anything else about "natural born citizen" is an annoying technicality. Much more useful was the cluster of factors that made him seem insufficiently American, and Penn was correct to notice them.

These facts were not subject to question: Obama spent his boyhood in Hawaii and Indonesia. Hawaii is a state, but it's so remote from the rest of America that it made a good contrast to Hillary Clinton.  Penn thought that suspicion could be aroused by continual references to her being "born in the middle of America." She was supposed to "own 'American' in our programs, the speeches and values" — "He doesn't." She didn't have to talk about where he was born, just where she was born and where she lived.

According to Weigel, the Penn memo was "a nothingburger." The Breitbart article continues with a discussion of the Clinton campaign's "otherizing" of Obama and Clinton surrogates talking about the birth certificate (mostly, I think, in terms of whether it might show dual citizenship).

Here's the CNN article from last May, "Hillary Clinton was not a 'birther'":
As FactCheck.org reported before, there's no proof Clinton had anything to do with the claims that Obama wasn't born in the United States and thus was ineligible to be president. But while Trump's specific claim against Hillary Clinton is not true, her supporters' hands are not entirely clean.

In January 2007, Insight Magazine, a right-wing publication, reported that Clinton's team had questions about Obama's Muslim background. It said that researchers connected to Clinton were spreading the allegation that he spent four years in a madrassa. The Clinton campaign said this was not true.

And back on March 19, 2007, then-Clinton adviser Mark Penn wrote a strategy memo to Clinton about Obama. It did not raise the issue of Obama's citizenship. But it did identify Obama's "lack of American roots" as something that "could hold him back."

Reggie Love, the longtime traveling aide to Obama, wrote in his book that Clinton and Obama had a heated conversation about the notion that Clinton supporters were sending emails saying that he was a Muslim.

In a March 2008 interview with "60 Minutes," Clinton said she took then-Sen. Obama's word that he was not a Muslim, but when pressed if she believed he was, she replied, "No. No, there is nothing to base that on -- as far as I know."
As far as I know... ah, yes! I remember it now. Here's my post about that. I defended Hillary at the time and thought "60 Minutes" was edited to help Obama and hurt Hillary. Back to CNN:
What we see in 2008 from Clinton is a subtle stoking of questions about Obama's identity, but she never went as far as Donald Trump did in 2011 in an interview with Fox News.

"He doesn't have a birth certificate. He may have one, but there's something on that, maybe religion, maybe it says he is a Muslim. I don't know. Maybe he doesn't want that," said Trump in the 2011 interview.

Bottom line: Clinton stoked questions about Obama's identity. But Clinton herself never questioned Obama's birth certificate.
So the question I come down to is: What's really important? The birth certificate itself, or the more general "otherizing" of Obama through portraying him as a Muslim (which leverages Islamophobia)?

To me, it's the latter. If the current Clinton campaign wants us to look closely at the story, I think what we'll see is her cynical use of Islamophobia, which is exactly the deplorable quality she's worked to attribute to Trump. That's the danger inside this story if Hillary chooses to pursue this issue, and it's why, I think, Trump threw out the bait today.

179 comments:

Bill Peschel said...

Joe, that is absolutely right. He portrayed himself as being born in Kenya. That's what was printed in his bio.

Funny how the news services forget that.

He also helped fan the controversy by not allowing Hawaii to release his birth certificate for a long time, so he should bear some responsibility for that, too. But Democrats are such racists.

Joe said...

Didn't Obama's publicists create the original source by stating he was born in Kenya? And didn't Obama fail to correct this?

Mom2Es said...

Well, of course she didn't dirty her hands directly; that's not how the Clintons operate. If Politico is to be believed, it was started by Obama's political opponents in Illinois and was then picked up by Clinton supporters in 2008.

Birtherism: Where it all Began

viator said...

A trip in time machine....
Monday 25 February 2008 16.50 EST
Aides for Mrs Clinton, who is fighting a last-ditch battle to keep her hopes of the White House alive, initially tried to brush off the furore, but later denied having anything to do with the distribution of the picture. "I just want to make it very clear that we were not aware of it, the campaign didn't sanction it and don't know anything about it," Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson told reporters. "None of us have seen the email in question."

Obama and Clinton go to the polls in the Texas and Ohio primaries next week. If Clinton loses either, her bid for the Democratic nomination could be over.

The picture showing Obama in a turban during a visit to Kenya in 2006 first appeared on the Drudge Report website today.

The site said it was circulated by Clinton's staffers and quoted one saying: "Wouldn't we be seeing this on the cover of every magazine if it were [Clinton]?"

The picture was taken when Obama went on a visit to Africa as a senator. Obama, whose father was Kenyan, visited Wajir in the Kenyan north-east, close to the Somali and Ethiopian borders, and was dressed by locals as a Somali elder.

The Clinton team hit back at the criticism today, saying Obama's team had turned the picture into a row to distract attention from a foreign policy speech she gave today.

The Obama campaign has repeatedly claimed it has been the target of dirty tricks by the Clinton team. A senior member of her staff, Bill Shaheen, had to resign last year after raising Obama's admitted use of marijuana and cocaine as a youth.

A junior Clinton staffer resigned in December 2007 after forwarding an email suggesting Obama is a Muslim.

Hunter said...

Damn it, I don't want to like Trump, but he's a goddamn genius at playing the media and turning the discourse to subjects that benefit him.

That in itself would be impressive, but that he's using it to hit Hillary Clinton and the left generally in places they really deserve to be hit, and in which no one else could hit them even if they cared to (which they also don't) makes it a thing of beauty.

Rob said...

I think we can all agree that Barack Obama has been an exemplary president. There ought to be a way to thank this devoted public servant--and there is! Everyone who wishes to honor President Obama's service should write him in in November. Though he's prevented from serving a third term under an originalist reading of the 22nd Amendment, a more expansive view of the Constitution as a living document would take account of the obstructionism of Republicans all through his term and consider that as a result he's had less than two terms of actual governing. Write in Barack Obama in November! Anything less would be, quite simply, racist.

Joe said...

I've wondered if Obama heard various stories from his whack-a-doodle mother while growing up and worried that she'd forged his birth certificate from Hawaii.

Michael Fitzgerald said...

I was thinking this was a loser issue for Trump to touch again, but he turned the press conference around on the nationally despised media, making them look like fools and bitter democrat toadies again. Of course this is an issue that has always been used by Obama and democrat party members to portray republicans as racists, and so it will continue to be hung around Trump's neck because the democrat party thinks it still works. From this point on the Journolist line will declare that Trump's statement was insincere, wonder why Trump spent 8 years building his entire persona around being an Obama-birther, insinuate that Trump's press conference was jingoistic and used elderly veterans for greedy partisan purposes, and conclude that Donald Trump and his deplorable supporters are racist, sexist, homophobic Islamophobes who are worse than Hitler...

rehajm said...

You don't attack your opponent when you think you're leading, when you think you are behind you need to attack your opponent. It's a risky strategy since it can backfire and expose you as desperate.

traditionalguy said...

Questioning the qualifications of Obama is the sin itself to the middle class black voters who are the ones at stake here. Especially if Obama is a Kenyan or a Muslim. It is blasphemy to expose him!

DJT handled that perfectly. He in effect said, " No comment."

YoungHegelian said...

On a related note, here's the origin of Obama as The Magic Negro. It was coined by David Ehrenstein, a half black/half Jewish film critic for the LA Times.

Mom2Es said...

Ah, yes; the turban picture. I remember Reuters reporting that Kenya might impose a fine (payable in cattle but not cattle futures) on her for circulating it.

Original Mike said...

"Is that bait the Clinton campaign shoud take?"

They would have "taken the bait" whether it was presented or not. They don't want to talk policy. They want to get into this mudpit. They need to get into this mudpit.

Gk1 said...

Trump goes for a nice 2 point conversion instead of an easy field goal. He's making it look easy at this point, humiliating the democrats masquerading as "the press".

traditionalguy said...

For those who missed it, CNN is really the maddest because everyone watching it had to have their socks knocked off by that much and straight talking, fluent, assembled military male authority, and they were all 200% for electing President Donald Trump.

Mom2Es said...

Joe,

Yes, in 1991 Acton & Dystel promoted him as having been born in Kenya in some kind of industry booklet.

William Chadwick said...

"Joe, that is absolutely right. He portrayed himself as being born in Kenya. That's what was printed in his bio."

As I recall, that prompted one blogger to call Obama "the original Birther."

Sydney said...

I recall at the time that the media implied the birther story started with the Clinton campaign. I don't have references like those above, but I remember it being the meme. For one thing, didn't it start during the primary?

Michael K said...

Trump is a master at playing the media. In this he resembles Reagan although they have different methods.

jdniner said...

Check the wayback archive and there are some pictures of book covers saying Obama was born in Kenya and raised in Hawaii.

web.archive.org /web/20120517214918/http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/17/The-Vetting-Barack-Obama-Literary-Agent-1991-Born-in-Kenya-Raised-Indonesia-Hawaii

It would be interesting if someone actually owned the book.

Mike Sylwester said...

Since the U.S. Consitution includes a birth requirement for the President and since that requirement's enforcing authorities are 1) the electorate and 2) the Electoral College, our election procedures should provide to the public our government's best evidence about a Presidential candidate's birth circumstances.

In the case of Barack Obama, our government's best evidence included his long-form birth certificate, which is a Hawaii state government's one-page civil-registry record from the year 1961.

Instead of simply providing that best evidence, Obama was satisfied to provide only a summary, which had been accomplished by an anonymous clerk. Meanwhile, his fellow Scientific Progressively furiously made racism accusations against any concerned citizen who suggested that the government's best evidence should be provided. Ironically, these same Scientific Progressives routinely demand that every Presidential candidate provide all his tax forms covering at least ten years.

Thanks to Donald Trump, Obama was compelled belatedly in 2012 to establish to a new political precedent that Presidential candidates should provide the government's best evidence about their birth circumstances when the issue arises.

Obama could have provided the certificate in 2008, but he preferred that the issue be discussed in terms of racism accusations. This is one reason why inter-racial relations have worsened during his Presidency.

Tommy Duncan said...

What Trump just did is a disgrace.

— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) September 16, 2016

The birther lie is what turned Trump from an ordinary reality TV star into a political figure. That origin story can't be unwritten.

— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) September 16, 2016

Trump has spent years peddling a racist conspiracy aimed at undermining the first African American president. He can't just take it back.

— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) September 16, 2016

Expressing zero regret for years of pushing a racist conspiracy theory, Trump again appointed himself judge & jury on @POTUS's citizenship.

— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) September 16, 2016

When Trump tries to deflect blame for denying that @POTUS was born in America, he is lying. https://t.co/lje3lKrZQy pic.twitter.com/yq9IWnvXUc

— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) September 16, 2016

Expressing zero regret for years of pushing a racist conspiracy theory, Trump again appointed himself judge & jury on @POTUS's citizenship.

— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) September 16, 2016

Bay Area Guy said...

President Obama was definitely born in Hawaii. His Mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, was only 18 when she gave birth to our future Prez, and certainly did not have the means to travel to Kenya as a Freshman in college to give birth. Duh.

But, there is some intrigue, nonetheless. It looks like Stanley Ann had a thing for foreign exchange students, and it looks like Obama Senior, a foreign exchange student, simply married the pregnant Stanley Ann, as a favor. Here's the timeline:

1. 11/29/42- Stanley Ann Dunham ("SA") born

2. 8/21/59 - Hawaii becomes a State

3. 6/60 - SA graduates high school in Seattle

4. 1960 - SA and family move to Hawaii for her Freshman year of college (odd)

5. 9/60 - SA enrolls in U of Hawaii class; meets Barack Senior in Russian Language class

6. 11/4/60- Barack Junior conceived

7. 2/2/61 - SA marries Senior in Hawaii.

8. 8/4/61 - Future Prez is born

9. 9/61 - 6/62 - SA moves to Seattle with Baby future Prez to takes classes at Univ of Washingon. Senior stays in Hawaii. (A shotgun marriage, but then immediate separation upon birth? Who does this in 1962?)

10. 6/62 - Senior graduates from U of Hawaii, immediately moves to Boston to begin Harvard Grad School

11. 9/62 - Lolo (future stepfather of the future Prez) comes from Indonesia to U of Hawaii

12. 1/63 - SA returns to U of Hawaii

13. 1/64 - SA files for divorce with Senior (uncontested, and he's already gone to Harvard)

14. 1965 - SA marries Lolo in Hawaii

15. 1966 - Lolo returns to Indonesia

16. 8/6/67 - SA graduates U of Hawaii; moves to Indonesia with future Prez to be with Lolo

17. 1971 - Senior visits future Prez in Hawaii (only visit ever)

So, at the end of the day, the Prez was raised by his Muslim stepfather in Indonesia (a Muslim country, from ages 6-10.

Not shocking or improper or scandalous, just interesting.

But, to me, the shotgun wedding, and then immediate separation upon the birth smells fishy. Why would Barack Senior marry SA for the duration of the pregnancy only?

chuck said...

ISTR that there was a couple in Philadelphia, die hard Hilary supporters, who pushed the birth certificate question after Obama was nominated. I can't remember the names, but google suggests Philip Jay Berg. I think it would be a bad idea for Hillary to continue to push this line a attack, as it will take attention off Trump and put it on Hillary and the political machinations of her advisers.

khesanh0802 said...

The headline puzzled me. I wondered why this and why now? Several of the above comments have helped clarify why:

don't attack when you don't have to;
free TV once again;
the issue is now dead in the campaign;
Sydney Blumenthal gets dragged out once again - Sydney is not a nice guy;
the stories I have seen show the press not quite sure what to say.

readering said...

Once again, Althouse attributes way more going on in Trump's brain than is really there. But I took a darker view of Clinton's Kroft interview than Althouse and do think the Kenyan-Muslim tropes go together, with polls showing many more Republicans believe Obama is a Muslim (or an atheist) than a Kenyan (or Indonesian). Just don't think Trump thinking that far ahead. I guess hounding Trump on whether Obama is a Christian comes next (along with "Where's the $5M charitable donation going?").

I do think it delicious that Trump's video tour of his hotel was deleted after the pool producer was restrained from joining it. Today may be the day the MSM really does go adversarial on The Donald.

Sara D said...


This youtube is from Morning Joe, where both Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski blame it on the Clinton 2008 campaign

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwN0VBdbNOs

Rob said...

@Bay Area Guy
The timeline is interesting but the fishy smell is TMI.

Original Mike said...

"Obama could have provided the certificate in 2008, but he preferred that the issue be discussed in terms of racism accusations. This is one reason why inter-racial relations have worsened during his Presidency."

He's a race baiter. To the detriment of the country. It's so sad. The first black President could have been such a positive for the country.

khesanh0802 said...

Taranto makes the point that Trump wasn't the chief "birther" - the press appointed him.

"Some in the media still had questions. “If Trump isn’t a birther, does he regret leading the movement for four years? Does he apologize to Obama?” tweeted CBS’s Sopan Deb. To the latter question, the answer is “probably not,” unless he sees some advantage in doing so.

As for the former, we question the premise that such a “movement” exists. Like David Duke, “birtherism” has functioned—at least since 2011 and to a considerable extent before then, too—mostly as a liberal-media trope for the purpose of depicting Republicans as crackpots and racists. (There is no rational reason to assume it is racist—unlike Duke—but it understandably feels racist to some people.)" WSJ today TBOWT column.

Hagar said...

I have never understood this fuss about birth certificates. There are are people in this world who can get you a genuine-looking birth certificate from the planet Gallifrey for a quite reasonable price, and the CIA can surely get you the real McCoy from any place here on Earth with any name and other information you wish.
More to the point, Obama was born only 55 years ago, and there are lots of people around who remember when Stanley Ann Dunham gave birth to a Black baby.

Of course, if you are a real college leftist, you must believe that the U.S. illegally occupied - and occupies - Hawaii, so its annexation and later statehood should not count, but that is another story.

jdniner said...

Why would a birth certificate be controversial? The simplest explanation to me is that Stanley Ann wrote something into it the Barack is embarrassed by. If the mom/dad relationship is weak or contentious moms have been known to leave the dad field blank. Or a volunteer is entered. Most likely she left it blank and that embarrasses the dreamer.

Nonapod said...

As anybody who has paid close attention to politics for any period of time knows, the actual truth is not what determines who wins an election. Ultimately the winner is the candidate who is able to tell the better, more appealing story. As far as I can tell, a large portion of voters (especially the white middle-of-the-road swing voters in battleground states) intuit their own version of the truth based on the stories they hear from the candidates themselves and their allies within and without the media. People aren't gonna go out of their way to do a bunch of fact checking or whatever.

And let's face it, Trump is some kind of weird idiot-savant when it comes to media narrative spinning, tale telling, story shaping... whatever you want to call it. Certainly much better then Hillary and her cohorts are at it anyway, if this whole incident tells us anything.

Bay Area Guy said...

As a purely political matter, Obama clearly won the "birther" dispute - a political judo move that generated sympathy for him, and made the Birthers look conspiratorial and kooky. It's good that Trump finally put that "issue," if it can be called that, to rest.

Can we talk about our $19 Trillion dollar debt and 93 million Americans out of the work force? They seem a tad more important.

khesanh0802 said...

To make things easier Here's Sara D's link. It's a beauty! Thanks, Sara.

jdniner said...

Trump was a minor birther. I didn't really even associate him with it. There was a lady all over the news with a jones for Obama birtherism. I can't remember her name but she went to court on it.

readering said...

Interesting coda from CNN today:

Blitzer: Someone supporting Hillary Clinton was trying to promote this so-called Birther issue? What happened?

Doyle: So we — absolutely, the campaign nor Hillary did not start the Birther movement, period, end of story there. There was a volunteer coordinator, I believe, in late 2007, I believe, in December, one of our volunteer coordinators in one of the counties in Iowa — I don’t recall whether they were an actual paid staffer, but they did forward an email that promoted the conspiracy.

Blitzer: The Birther conspiracy?

Doyle: Yeah, Hillary made the decision immediately to let that person go. We let that person go. And it was so, beyond the pale, Wolf, and so not worthy of the kind of campaign that certainly Hillary wanted to run.

jdniner said...

And these days it should be enough that one parent has an American birth certificate. That should make a person eligible to be POTUS. Lots of single moms out there being discriminated against if their partner of choice doesn't fit some ancient idea of legality. What about orphans? Can they become POTUS?

Say maybe the baby Obama was left on the Bunker porch in the middle of the night? And Edith put her foot down and they happily raised a younger meathead? Would that kid be eligible to be POTUS?

readering said...

Taranto wrong. Trump was the lead birther because he was the one claiming to have hired private investigators and put up $5M for charity to get to the bottom. And he did it because the polling showed it was great with the Republican base. Something 16 other candidates in 2015-16 learned too late to their regret (at least the ones running to win, a subset of the 16).

Hagar said...

Why would Barack Senior marry SA for the duration of the pregnancy only?

In 1960, even in Hawaii, a Black man knocking up a White teenager could expect quite serious consequences, so it would be best to agree to whatever the Dunhams wanted, and anyway, Barack Sr. never was reluctant to marry the women he bedded.

readering said...

. . . Which doesn't make him a political genius, just really gutsy. People say he has thin skin. I agree with him that he has thick skin.

readering said...

11/4/60- Barack Junior conceived

Looking for that in my Dr Spock. Not finding it.

rehajm said...

"We got played, again, by the Trump campaign, because that's what they do. … Voters can know what to do with that," CNN's John King said.

Yes, John. Yes we will.

Birkel said...

Tommy Duncan:

Was that your best effort? Who is your supervisor? We must report you to the proper DNC authorities to have your pay docked. That was pathetic.

Achilles said...

More important than reminding the country who started the birther movement trump also highlighted the obvious media bias. Trump is the only republican nominee to be smart enough to treat the media like the democrats with bylines they are.

Birkel said...

readering said...
Once again, Althouse attributes way more going on in Trump's brain than is really there.


…said readering, attributing to Trump's brain things that readering cannot know.

Irony, do you speak it?

Michael K said...

"Most likely she left it blank and that embarrasses the dreamer."

That seems more likely than Kenya to me.

It is all old history but the obsession by the media is what let Trump troll them so thoroughly today,

eric said...

There is a lot more evidence out there that this began with Hillary. But the press is purposefully looking away.

It's made possible by the difference between Hillary and her campaign style vs Trump and his campaign style.

Here is McClatchy news reporter today on Twitter.

#CNN says #Hillary team in 2008 never raised #birther issue. #SidBlumenthal, long-time #HRC buddy, told me in person #Obama born in #kenya

That's James Asher. Or @jimasher on twitter.

And here is Mark Murray, NBC reporter on twitter responding to this

What's more, hard to compare a whispering SidB w the man who shouted to everyone, "Show us your birth certificate!" https://t.co/Qx5F48XLJk

Now, I could be misunderstanding this, but it seems to me like they are admitting it began with Hillary and a whisper campaign, but, they prefer the backstabbing, behind the scenes, whisper campaign to a Trumpian, in your face, accusation.

I can respect one, and am disgusted by the other.

Joe said...

jdniner:

Excellent hypothesis. Take it one step further; what if his actual father listed was some American bloke from Hawaii and not Obama Sr., which would destroy the myth he'd created about himself.

khesanh0802 said...

@ readering You appear to be correct although I have trouble with calling a guy who is clearly making a giant joke the" leader" of any "movement". Trump must have a lot of fun thinking up ways to pull people's chains. He must have a great sense of humor. If you were going to retract a statement would you think of doing it while surrounded by Medal of Honor recipients? I wouldn't - it would never occur to me.

chuck said...

...Voters can know what to do with that," CNN's John King said.

A lot of voters hate, hate, hate the media. John forgets that at his peril, it is one of the strongest currents driving Trump's success.

eric said...

And Jake Tapper just tweeted

former McClatchy DC bureau chief @jimasher tweeting that Sid Blumenthal pushed birther lie to him in 2008. Asking for comment

I think Hillary really needs media cover here. What happens if the media has to apologize and retract for calling Trump a liar when he said Hillary started it?

Strick said...

Surely this is a moot point this late in Obama's presidency. Trump was right to shut it down as bluntly as he did, I just guess he couldn't resist zinging Hillary's campaign to see if they react and, maybe, make a mistake.

Wise? Who knows or cares. I'm having some "None of the Above" buttons made up.

holdfast said...

The UK Telegraph is obviously conservative, but it's not the NY Post or Breitbart:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/8478044/Birther-row-began-with-Hillary-Clinton-supporters.html

eric said...

Blogger readering said...
Taranto wrong. Trump was the lead birther because he was the one claiming to have hired private investigators and put up $5M for charity to get to the bottom. And he did it because the polling showed it was great with the Republican base. Something 16 other candidates in 2015-16 learned too late to their regret (at least the ones running to win, a subset of the 16).


Actually, he put up the 5 million for Obamas college records and passport.

Sara D said...

khesanh0802 said...
"To make things easier Here's Sara D's link. It's a beauty! Thanks, Sara."

Glad you liked it, I laughed out loud when I saw it.

GWash said...

OK... are we all on the same page now? Obama is an American... can we move on to the next issue?... Trump's economic plan?... 27 million spectacularly great new jobs in the next decade... by the way it was a fantastical new Trump Hotel... really great in every respect !
What a showman ! i can't wait for the market to hit 20k after he's elected ! it will be great and we will all be grateful for the great jobs coming our way...

eric said...

GWash, I know you're being sarcastic, but as someone who plays in the options market daily, let me warn you. Under the next Republican President there will be a crash.

The media doesn't see bad economic news until a Republican is in the presidency. Once we get another one, we will have another 2001-2003 downturn and another 2007-2008.

Bruce Hayden said...

And the birther thing was likely one big reason that of all the people that Crooked Hillary tried to bring with her to the State Dept, the biggest name refused by the Obama Administration was that of long time Clnton hatchet man Sidney Blumenthal. By all indications, it was personal, on their part. This is, of course, the same "Sid Vicious" who was on the payroll of the Clinton foundation/slush fund, and who sent compartmentalized intelligence to her on the Sudan, whose attempts to make money in Libya may have been why the US pushed regime change there, and whose hacked and released emails revealed her use of her illegal private insecure email server.

Chuck said...

eric; you are absolutely correct. Trump put up a $5 million charity offer for Obama's college records and passport.

What do you suppose someone would put up now, for Trump's tax returns, his draft-age medical records, and his Wharton transcript? Plus, all of the Trump University files?

Can somebody explain how it is that, "Hillary floated the birther lie before I did," helps Trump?

eric said...


Can somebody explain how it is that, "Hillary floated the birther lie before I did," helps Trump?


The argument is, it's racist. Therefore, spreading the lie is racist. A syllogism for you.

1) Spreading the birther lie is racist.
2) Trump spread the birther lie.
3) Therefore, Trump is racist.

And

1) Spreading the birther lie is racist.
2) Hillary started the birther lie.
3) Hillary is racist.

So, if Hillary started the birther lie, either the media has to call them both racist, thus canceling it out, or neither of them racist, thus canceling it out.

Either way, it helps Trump. They are stuck.

EsoxLucius said...

In related news, Obama elated that he's finally American according to Donald Trump.

Gk1 said...

Hah, the press is belatedly figuring out no one cares what they say/think about Trump. The clinton campaign is in freefall and their best chance, Trump's big mouth, isn't providing any ammo. Trump senses this and is now trolling the press for free exposure, hanging out tantalizing boob bait. He can't resist a jab to Clinton's head on the way out that she started the "birther" campaign. Watch the press give up this "issue" and feverishly try something that will get traction.

Chuck said...

Right, eric. Except that syllogism doesn't apply to movement Conservatives who never bought into birtherism or Trump.

I never equated birtherism with racism. I know better. I don't think Trump is a racist. I think Trump is an ignorant, ill-informed, lazy, ugly, boorish, shameless self-promoter.

eric said...

Chuck,

You asked how it helps Trump. Not how it helps Trump with movement conservatives. Unless you think the only way Trump can be helped is with movement conservatives. In which case, we disagree.

GWash said...

OK here is another opportunity to stretch... Hilary (if you mean as in clinton) did not start the birther drama... this is another urban myth that we should really get beyond if we are going to have a more factual discussion... please send the quote from Hilary stating that... reading this blog reminds me of the abbott and costello baseball routine... instead of 'i dont know - third base' the meme on this blog goes 'i dont know - crooked hilary' but after the don's landslide victory this nightmare will all be in the past and everything will be great !

Chuck said...

And there is one other way to look at today's Birther story, eric...

It's this; at it's very lowest level, it does give Hillary and the Dems a chance to say, "Hey, remember that racist Trump challenged President Barack Obama's birthplace."

So that helps them turn out the black (97% Democrat) vote.

There. Is that simple enough?

Of course a couple of smart guys like you and I know that that the racism charge is false. Just like we both know that Trump's claim of sending investigators to Hawaii to discover "amazing" things was false.

Now, try explaining that to the voters in Detroit, Chicago, South Philadelphia, Cleveland/Glenville, and Dade County, Florida.

eric said...

GWash, I already shared with you. Read back up. It's clear her campaign started the whole birther movement.

Chuck,

Give it the weekend. You'll see what I mean. Today's playing of the news media by Trump was brilliant. My Twitter is already filled with back-pedaling reporters. And if Trump makes you back pedal, it's a huge win. Soon, Hillary and her camp will be playing defense. When they thought this was a solid line of attack.

Chuck said...

I gotta say, eric, I get your point.

Which is why I'd never want to be a Democrat, reducing everything to false charges of racism.

Much better, to have said that birtherism is stupid, Trump is stupid, and leave it at that.

Except that in Democratic politics, the use of fear, loathing and hatred among black voters is always a selling point and not a negative. It won them large -- even astonishing -- electoral victories in 2008 and 2012.

mockturtle said...

What difference, at this point, does it make?

FullMoon said...

Trump already has his supporters, no matter what he does. Now, he is going for black vote and has brought back the fact that Hillary dissed O back in the day. Coming right after Black Powells email talkin' 'bout hot Bill and Hillary hate O? Almost seems planned.

Chuck said...

eric, my weekend (apart from college football) will be spent laughingly recounting the phenomenal stupidity of the Trump "birther" days. There's video, there's audio, there are the defenses, the further defenses, the stubborn-resisting-all-reality defenses, and then today the capitulation.

On Clinton's side, there is a rumored memo that I've never seen.

Again, I think any Clinton-campaign birtherism pales in comparison to Trump. It is the rare example of Hillary taking the early, full-disclosure high road. She declaimed the birther business almost immediately. Trump hung onto it for about six years.

David Begley said...

Trump is running against Hillary; not Barack. But Hillary has to bring this up because she has nothing else. She is sunk.

Hate. Racist. Dangerous. That's all she has. None of this is factual or even relevant.

MSM in full protection mode for Hillary. MSM might as well issue formal endorsements.

It is fun watching the MSM meltdown and the complete destruction of the Clinton machine. Hillary, "I'm melting!"

The first debate will be a complete take-down of Hillary. I expect to see reporters crying.

The Genius Savant said...

Scott Adams made an excellent point: how can "birther-ism" about Obama be "racist" when Trump also went birther on Ted Cruz?

Sydney Blumenthal is the smoking gun that disproves the media's "Trump lied about Hillary" stance. They will ignore.

Fabi said...

Trump will receive at least 15% of the black vote, Chuck -- it's how he wins. Just laying down a marker. What do you say, percentage-wise?

FullMoon said...

Chuck said... [hush]​[hide comment]

eric, my weekend (apart from college football) will be spent laughingly recounting the phenomenal stupidity of the Trump "birther" days. There's video, there's audio, there are the defenses, the further defenses, the stubborn-resisting-all-reality defenses, and then today the capitulation.

Seems like Trump evolved. After diligently persuing, and perusing all available evidence, Trump's position has evolved to one of acceptance. Unlike many, who immediately used rumor of a birth certificate as irrefutable proof.

richardsson said...

Hilarious. As I posted earlier, this birther business all began with Obama himself. It was just too good to thoroughly fact check. They keep wanting to get Trump and he gets them. Nicholas Nassim Taleb has a relevant post about elites both here and in Europe. He calls them Intellectuals Yet Idiots (IYI's).

chuck said...

@Chuck Frankenstein's monster (aka Franks) is known by the name of his creator. It is only right that Hillary be haunted by the ghosts of campaigns past and the creepy creations of her advisors.

MayBee said...

People researching Obama's origins vs. what he had said about it surely knew he wasn't telling the full story. For a man born in the modern age, there were surprisingly few solid details about him.
Last I checked, nobody has found his parents marriage license. People assume they were legally married because Barack Sr. signed divorce papers, but that could be out of confusion- he was, after all, here on a student's visa, married to a woman in Kenya, and starting a relationship with another woman out east.
And as was pointed out earlier in this thread, Stanley showed up in Washington State just weeks after giving birth, something Obama has never discussed or hinted at.
All of this stuff had to be dug up, because Obama was incredibly secretive in 2008 (recall he did not even acknowledge he had been on the board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge until reporters dug up that tidbit.)

So a rumor must have started something was hinky about Obama's birth. Obama promised to produce his birth certificate, created a website for it, showed reporters the website, and then at the last minute gave the birth record to Daily Kos.

None of it very transparent, all of it the perfect condition for rumors to fester. Certainly someone in Hillary's camp could have told her friend Donald about their theory.

eric said...

Fabi said...
Trump will receive at least 15% of the black vote, Chuck -- it's how he wins. Just laying down a marker. What do you say, percentage-wise?

9/16/16, 3:45 PM


I'm gonna go with 25%

Chuck said...

Fabi said...
Trump will receive at least 15% of the black vote, Chuck -- it's how he wins. Just laying down a marker. What do you say, percentage-wise?


Oh my God that is a bet you do not want to make! Nowhere close to that. You are saying that Trump will do far, far better with black voters than any Republican in in a lifetime. With Barack Obama actively campaigning against Trump and dealing race cards on a daily basis. Obama got 95 percent of the black vote nationwide in 2012. Clinton won't do much worse. Turnout is the only question.

Unknown said...

But did HRC ever repudiate her birther supporters? Trump is supposed to condemn David Duke, after all.

Michael said...

Trump was the one who put the matter to rest by taunting Obama into releasing the BC from Hawaii. Until Trump came along and wouldn't shut up about it the issue was going to remain in the air. So, again, we see what happens when a man of action calls for action.

Chuck said...

I want in on the action, betting the under on 25% of the black vote going to Trump. You are out of your mind.

Yancey Ward said...

I have always thought the birther issue was a loser for Republicans who held to it, and I think that is one reason Obama was tardy in putting out the information that more or less fully refuted it- it kept them talking about it to their own detriment.

What Trump did today was simply brilliant- he has completely neutralized this issue, and if the Clinton team wants to keep talking about it, let them. It is irrelevant on just about every level now- Obama has four months left in office. I was watching the CNN feed after Trump's admission, and it was simply hilarious- they were furious that he had taken this issue from them in this way.

I don't have the links to prove it, but I am going to try to find them- I do remember when this issue of Obama's birthplace was first brought to my attention- it was during the first few months of the Democratic primary when Clinton and Obama were still in heated battle in early March of 2008- probably a few day before the Ohio and Texas primaries. I first saw the issue raised in the comments sections in pissing contests between Obama and Clinton supporters on several Democrat-leaning blogs and media sources. So, it is doubtful to me that this meme was started on the Right, though they definitely picked it up and ran with it after Obama finished Clinton off. Was it the Clinton campaign that responsible for planting that meme? The later released memos are probably the best evidence that is where it got started, but they were clever enough to make it too murky for certainty. The "lack of American roots" phrase sounds like an indirect way to be a birther without having to tie yourself to the danger of having Obama produce a birth certificate or a contemporaneous announcement in a Honolulu paper.

However, the danger for Clinton isn't the possibility it was her campaign that started this- the danger is trying to make this an issue in the election after Trump has disavowed his previous arguments. Anyone not a hardcore Democrat isn't going to like a presidential candidate wasting time on such a now trivial piece of old news

David in Cal said...

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/09/16/hillary-clinton-campaign-manager-admits-birtherism-started/

Patti Solis Doyle, who was Hillary Clinton’s campaign manager in 2008 until the Iowa caucuses, admitted on Friday that a Clinton campaign staffer had, in fact, circulated the Birther conspiracy theory that Barack Obama was born outside the U.S. and therefore potentially ineligible to serve in the presidency.

Fabi said...

I was hoping for a percentage, Chuck. It seems like you're talking in the 5% range, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Bush got 11% in 2004, and I think Trump will easily pass that. Will he get to eric's 25%? I can't imagine that.

Chuck said...

Yancey Ward:

If I sent to the Trump campaign a list of 110 other things I'd like Mr. Trump to disavow, do you think they'd give it some consideration? If I told them what a clever strategy you thought such disavowals were, do you think that would help?

Michael Fitzgerald said...

rehajm said...
"We got played, again, by the Trump campaign, because that's what they do. … Voters can know what to do with that," CNN's John King said.

Yes, John. Yes we will.
9/16/16, 2:33 PM

Here's the American media, soon after announcing their war against Donald Trump, now admitting that their enemy is their master. Well America, who do we want standing up for us before the rest of the world, The sickly criminal propped up by the partisan press, or the strong man running circles around her praetorian guard?

FullMoon said...

Chuck said...

Yancey Ward:

If I sent to the Trump campaign a list of 110 other things I'd like Mr. Trump to disavow, do you think they'd give it some consideration? If I told them what a clever strategy you thought such disavowals were, do you think that would help?


Try it, see what happens.

Chuck said...

So I think we've got a bet, then, Fabi.

Trump will get less than 15% of the black vote in 2016. What do you want to bet?

Yancey Ward said...

Chuck, you have become a parody. If Trump were to listen to your advice, he would only get 40% or less in November. Will you vanish like a fart in the wind if Trump wins in November?

FullMoon said...

I watched the Apprentice. Never thought Trump was all that smart, really. Now, I see Scott Adams constantly saying he is a genius at manipulation. Kind of have to look at that. He even has Chuck defending Hillary on this issue. And EVERYBODY wondering who really started it.

FullMoon said...

Next thing, Trump will have African Americans thanking him for disproving evil Hillarys racist birtherism.

Chuck said...

Yancey Ward said...
Chuck, you have become a parody. If Trump were to listen to your advice, he would only get 40% or less in November. Will you vanish like a fart in the wind if Trump wins in November?


Gosh, I hope nobody farts because I would be breathing a huge sigh of relief that Hillary would not be nominating any federal judges.

On the other hand if Trump loses to that complete trainwreck of a Democratic presidential nominee, I am going to be insufferable.

Fabi said...

Bottle of Scotch seems reasonable, Chuck!

Roughcoat said...

What about the possible Frank Marshall Davis connection?

Yancey Ward said...

Chuck,

I mostly ignore you these days, and you have reminded me why.

rcocean said...

Again, this just shows that Trump's policy of counter-attack and never apologizing is the correct one.

He says what the liberal MSM wants him to say: O is a US citizen and "Birtherism" is wrong.

So what is the response? "Oh, well we're not going to let you off the hook that easy. We think you're insincere, we think you're REALLY a birther, so we'll ignore what you just said, and keep on criticizing you."

Its bullshit squared.

Bruce Hayden said...

@RoughCoat -BHO II looks a lot more like Davis to me than to BHO, Sr, or, really, any of the other Obamas. Could be him being half white, but he just doesn't have the Obama build. I have always thought that he looked more eastern African, and not western - closer to maybe Ethiopian or Samali than Nigerian. But, at this point, what does it matter?

Chuck said...

Fabi - You are on. Mark it down. Trump to achieve 15% or better, of the national vote of African-Americans.

For a bottle of scotch. (Good for you, I have simple tastes. I am thinking of a nice 18 year-old bottle of Highland Park.)

And now for the readers' interest, let's put 15% in context. It would be the best showing by a Republican among blacks since Gerald Ford ran against Georgia Gov. Jimmy Carter in 1976.

2004: 11%
2000: 8%
1996: 12%
1992: 10%
1988: 11%
1984: 9%
1980: 14%
1976: 17%

Of course the last two presidential elections were freakish blowouts. For the first time in history, African-American turnout by percentage of eligible voters equaled and then exceeded white voters. And it was 95% to 5%, Obama v. Romney.

The Obama-love actually masks a more important thing which is that Republicans have been steadily losing blacks' votes.

Then, there is Trump himself. And as Five Thirty-Eight reported in August, Trump was running fourth at that time. Fourth, as in behind Hillary, behind Gary Johnson and behind Jill Stein:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-is-in-fourth-place-among-black-voters/

Cheers!

rcocean said...

BTW, this also reminds me of Al Gore and Willie Horton. Its Al gore who brought up Willie Horton against Michael Dukakais, but when Bush did in the General the Liberal MSM went batshit crazy, screeching "raciss, rasiss, you dirty rotten raciss".

So, Hillary used the Obama = Muslim meme in 2008, and it was Ok, but when Trump does it, well, that's beyond the pale.

rcocean said...

I see "chuck" the Hillary operative is posting, so I will bow out.

madAsHell said...

Why would Barack Senior marry SA for the duration of the pregnancy only?

Barack is not Senior's kid. I'll guess Sr. hung around long enough to get a green card. Google "Frank Marshall Davis", and then tell me which one is Barack's father.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Still giving credit to Trump for being cagey and throwing out bait, when all he did, when it was nothing more than another verbal ejaculation because he was angry that he had to withdraw his assertion that Obama isn't an illegitimate President. That hurt him to the core. He was humbled before millions. No one really cares about Clinton saying "as far as I know" on 60 minutes. It was a bit smarmy, but she didn't carry it any further, unlike Trump who wholeheartedly was a champion for the Birther Movement. Now I'm waiting for some intrepid reporter to ask him about his anti vaxxer stance. Trump is a conspiracy theory guy, which to any thinking person should throw up red flags as far as suitability for the Presidency. Trump hears a rumor about Little Kim, before you know it nuclear misses are being lobbed back and forth.

Bad Lieutenant said...

On the other hand if Trump loses to that complete trainwreck of a Democratic presidential nominee, I am going to be insufferable.

Chuck, you're already insufferable.

Are you going to do your job in MI, protecting the integrity of the election against Democratic fraudsters, or not? In fact it seems Michigan is getting more competitive, so it actually could matter.

Fabi said...

Glenmorangie lover here, Chuck. A very fun bet!

Gk1 said...

rcocean is spot on. Trump never apologizes and just moves on. The biggest mistake you make in politics is thinking liberals are sincere and will accept an apology and move on. The press is just angry because they have run into someone more shameless than they are and they don't know how to deal with it.

Bruce Hayden said...

Love the Clinton splitting of legal hairs here. Blumenthal has been a close Clinton confidante, hatchet man, and fixer, since at least 1997. He was the one going after Ken Starr and his people, and somewhat successfully managed to tar them enough that Bill Clinton was not convicted after his impeachment. And who started rumors that Lewinsky was a crazy stalker. Etc. the question is probably not whether he started the birther claims, or did it to help Crooked Hillary beat Obama, but rather whether, at the time, was he a paid employee of her 2008 campaign. That is how the Clintons have always parsed the truth, from the question of whether Bill had sexual relations with that woman (arguing that BJs and sticking non-penis objects in a vagina were not) to what the meaning of "is" is. To her claiming that she was exonerated because none of the emails on her illegal email server (that she and her attys hadn't deleted) had classified headers, when the operant question was whether they contained classified information. So, of course, she wasn't, technically, the source for the birther rumors. And her campaign, itself, probably wasn't either. But that doesn't address whether or not her close friend, surrogate, fixer, and hatchet man, "Sid Vicious" Blumenthal was behind them.

EsoxLucius said...

In the real world, Freefall Hillary commands a sixty point lead on five thirty eight dot com. Yes, ladyfingers stopped committing political suicide a couple of weeks ago, but I have yet hear why a person who dedicated seventy years to stoking his own ego and filling his own pockets by any means available should suddenly turn a corner and devote himself to his country. Whether he's doing it as a lark to maximize ratings on the news channel he's built his campaign into, or in the pay of foreign oligarchs bent on destabilizing the country, it's clear that there's no way he wants the job, and is figuring out some way he can bow out and blame somebody but himself without becoming a loser. Whether it be in the debates, another twitter eruption, or Romney's big whale, you know it's coming.

FullMoon said...

nknown said...

Still giving credit to Trump for being cagey and throwing out bait, when all he did, when it was nothing more than another verbal ejaculation because he was angry that he had to withdraw his assertion that Obama isn't an illegitimate President. That hurt him to the core. He was humbled before millions. No one really cares about Clinton saying "as far as I know" on 60 minutes. It was a bit smarmy, but she didn't carry it any further, unlike Trump who wholeheartedly was a champion for the Birther Movement. Now I'm waiting for some intrepid reporter to ask him about his anti vaxxer stance. Trump is a conspiracy theory guy, which to any thinking person should throw up red flags as far as suitability for the Presidency. Trump hears a rumor about Little Kim, before you know it nuclear misses are being lobbed back and forth.

Trump did the black community a service by disproving despicable Hillary/Sydney racist birther rumors. All the black blogs are praising Trump today

grackle said...

The MSM still hasn’t figured out the Trump phenomenon. Neither have I. Certainly the NeverTrumpers haven’t. Maybe even Trump hasn’t.

To me it sometimes seems as if Trump has access to a fourth dimension while the rest of us have to operate in three.

This youtube is from Morning Joe, where both Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski blame it on the Clinton 2008 campaign …

I’ve been briefly, very briefly tuning into the Morning Joes the last few mornings. I’m not interested in what they say – only how they look. Scarborough looks like a mafia flunky who got caught stealing from the boss and who is at a loss for an explanation. Mika looks like she had been crying. Like a tragedy had just occurred, which I guess it has.

They are realizing in fits and starts that they haven’t a clue to what is going on. And I think her physical problems have frightened them badly. If she keeps showing weird symptoms she will lose no matter how they spin it. They will not be able to save her. For them it must be like watching granny’s house burn down with granny trapped inside. And there’s that damned “debate” coming up. If she has trouble with swallowing and has to cough it is over.

furious_a said...

Check @jimasher and @jaketapper 's TWTR TL's. Former McClatchy DC bureau chief claims (and Tapper is looking to interview) that Sid Blumenthal sat in his office and urged him to investigate Obama's foreign birth.

This has Hillary's fingerprints all over it. Seeing as how Al Gore birthed "Willie Horton", it makes perfect sense.

readering said...

For those who want to go deep into the weeds into the origins of birtherism justifications (not the origin of birtherism itself, which derived from more legalistic stuff like the legalistic stuff used against Cruz, who was, after all, actually born abroad of a non-US father):

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2012/05/17/the-vetting-barack-obama-literary-agent-1991-born-in-kenya-raised-indonesia-hawaii/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-pinter/obama-birthplace_b_1530399.html

Yancey Ward said...

Grackle wrote:

"The MSM still hasn’t figured out the Trump phenomenon. Neither have I. Certainly the NeverTrumpers haven’t. Maybe even Trump hasn’t."

It isn't a mystery- he is confident and fearless. This fearlessness can and does lead to mistakes, but on balance it serves him much, much better than its opposite which is hesitance and doubt, always retreating under fire. I try hard to imagine any of the other Republican candidates riding roughshod over the press they way Trump does, treating them with contempt this way, and I can't do it for any other candidate than Christie, and Christie was never going to win nomination.

Michael McClain said...

Once again, The Donald has gotten inside the DemCong's decision cycle.

Original Mike said...

"In the real world, Freefall Hillary commands a sixty point lead on five thirty eight dot com."

You do some funny math "in the real world".

Bay Area Guy said...

@Chuck,

I don't think Trump is a racist. I think Trump is an ignorant, ill-informed, lazy, ugly, boorish, shameless self-promoter.

So, there's still a chance?:)

Your discussion on the GOP and the black vote is actually very good.

Asians vote 30% GOP; Latinos a smidgeon more.

That's where blacks, naturally, should be. Large segments of blacks are against abortion, tough on crime, don't want high taxes, etc, etc. They should naturally be voting GOP, but the racial hucksters have poisoned the political well so thoroughly, that enormous cultural pressures are put on them to vote Dem.

Everyone (blacks, GOP and eventually Dems) would be better off if 30% of blacks voted GOP. They'd have more leverage in the GOP party, and the Dems would have to stop taking them for granted. The Dems would lose some political power in the short run, but, hey that's life.

n.n said...

Democrats' legacy of class diversity is haunting them. Their warmongering and anti-native policies probably doesn't help. They are desperate to project their bigotry onto someone, anyone.

Bruce Hayden said...

I don't think that Crooked Hillary is in free fall. Rather, I think two things are in play. One is that polls appear to have been biased a bit to show her having a big post convention bump. That never made much sense, despite the MSM bias in their coverage of the two conventions. I think the assumption was always that showing momentum after her convention would give her momentum through the general election. The bias that I think we have mostly seen is over representation by Democrats, justified based on 2008 and 2012 voting patterns. But, Clinton is not Obama. And, as the biases are removed, corresponding to likely voting patterns (esp given the enthusiasm gap reversing this election), polls are moving towards Trump. Then, Clinton took off from actual campaigning through August, while Trump campaigned like crazy. Her campaign was ready for her to hit the road running this month, and then she had such an obvious health incident on 9/11, that broke whatever momentum they were trying to get going, esp since she had to take most of this week off too. But there is still a lot of inertia, much of it in her direction.

Rusty said...

Unknown said...
Still giving credit to Trump for being cagey and throwing out bait, when all he did, when it was nothing more than another verbal ejaculation because he was angry that he had to withdraw his assertion that Obama isn't an illegitimate President. That hurt him to the core. He was humbled before millions. No one really cares about Clinton saying "as far as I know" on 60 minutes. It was a bit smarmy, but she didn't carry it any further, unlike Trump who wholeheartedly was a champion for the Birther Movement. Now I'm waiting for some intrepid reporter to ask him about his anti vaxxer stance. Trump is a conspiracy theory guy, which to any thinking person should throw up red flags as far as suitability for the Presidency. Trump hears a rumor about Little Kim, before you know it nuclear misses are being lobbed back and forth.

I would just love to see that cartoon you have running in your head.
As bad as you percieve him to be he managed to become the Republican presidential candidate. Not only that a few months ago he was double digits behind Clinton. Now he's leading-depending on what poll you follow. The conclusion you should have come to is you're being played and played brilliantly. As someone above said, he's in the Democrat OODA loop. Living rent free in your head. Politically the man is a lot smarter than you give him credit for. And that is why he will win and you will stand there wondering what just happened.

sane_voter said...

I very much doubt Trump gets 15% of the black vote, but Hillary definitely will get less than 85% of the black vote, which is the more important metric.

readering said...

FWIW former journalist @jimasher tweeting that good ol' Sid Blumenthal was peddling birtherism to him in 2008.

EMD said...

"stoking his own ego and filling his own pockets by any means available "

The irony. It burns.

grackle said...

… riding roughshod over the press they way Trump does, treating them with contempt this way …

By showing the public, at least those who are not blind, what they really are? By out-maneuvering them like he did today?

Hypothetical: Clinton schedules an appearance to speak about Trump’s ties to birtherism. A rogue’s gallery of the usual MSM Hillary Fan Club shows up, hungry for righteous sound bites! At the beginning she showcases a dozen of her veteran supporters(there must be a few), then makes a strongly worded statement about Trump and his birtherism slander of our beloved Obama.

Q. Would the MSM be outraged at Hillary’s treachery for tricking them?

The MSM made a mistake in starting this up again. Trump, or someone on Trump’s staff, maybe Kellyanne Conway, realized recently that Trump’s birtherism was going to be made into an issue by the MSM.

Sometimes it seems as though this beast called the MSM has a short memory. They apparently forgot that Hillary’s campaign started the birtherism stuff – the “founder” of birtherism you might even say. But they are ignorant of most issues so I guess that’s not surprising.

I’ll bet that Hillary herself was not glad that this has come up again. After it started she had no other choice but to respond and add unwanted fuel to the birtherism fire.

But it’s too late now. There’s the Mark Penn memo, the spate of articles that were published during that time – all kinds of stuff that makes the 2008 Hillary campaign look guilty as hell. It’ll be on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc.

As soon as they realize that some African-American voters might take offense at the Mark Penn memo, they’ll try to reverse course. But these things can have an inertia that’s hard to overcome once they’re started.

Rusty said...

Blogger sane_voter said...
I very much doubt Trump gets 15% of the black vote, but Hillary definitely will get less than 85% of the black vote, which is the more important metric.

I'm going to out on a limb here and predict he gets better than 35%.

bigkat said...

American Christian politicians have always made it a pre condition for speaking
at catholic universities (Notre Dame & Georgetown) to drape all crosses and icons
at least since 1776 right?

EsoxLucius said...

It didn't take long for the suicidal Trump to come roaring back. Today in Miami: “I think that her bodyguards should drop all weapons, they should disarm. I think they should disarm immediately. Take their guns away, she doesn’t want guns. Let’s see what happens to her. Take their guns away, OK, it would be very dangerous.” The party of Lincoln, suggesting assassination.

GWash said...

Wow... Trump getting black votes.. too bad republican legislatures are doing everything they can to suppress black voters from voting... maybe a little voter fraud would help the new black messiah... i really don't think that trump is going to play all that well in the black community... maybe a little poll of the black bloggers here would help?

grackle said...

Slyly, boyishly, mischievously, he looks up at Trump and asks, “Have you ever played Sorry?” Jimmy Fallon has a plan.

Trump quips, “No, I prefer Monopoly.” The audience erupts into laughter. Jimmy puts the Sorry box aside.

It could be a metaphor for the Trump phenomenon. He’s playing Monopoly and they’re playing the Sorry game.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict he gets better than 35%.

That’s a bold prediction. I’ll speculate that he gets 25%, which is more than enough to defeat Hillary. Trump is polling at 20% of the black vote in Florida.

http://tinyurl.com/jtck5e8

Gk1 said...

I dunno EsoxLucious he was just throwing liberal hypocrisy about gun ownership right back into her face. Do liberals think they are the only ones that should own guns or control them? If guns are so terrible shouldn't she provide a moral example for the rest of us unenlightened ones and have her security staff disarm themselves? That's what I got out of it.

rehajm said...

EsoxLucius said...
In the real world, Freefall Hillary commands a sixty point lead on five thirty eight dot com.


I suspect this person cannot spot their error.

grackle said...

Yancey Ward:

Just realized that my comment might make it seem as if I was disagreeing with you. Quite the contrary I assure you.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

Despite the protests of anti-native factions, the proud bigotry of class diversitists, JournoLists of the Fourth Estate, and coordination through DNC mail servers, Trump also met with the president of Mexico, presumably to discuss emigration reform. Mexico, first, second and third-world nations, second, and finally targets of progressive wars and resets. Positive progress.

My name goes here. said...

I know I am late to this thread, but I am going to chime in for posterity.

I *never* thought that Trump believed that Obama was born in Kenya. My guess is that Barack Obama used his exotic name to to be able to make the claim that he was born in Kenya and then reap benefits from that, like say allow him to get into Harvard while he was a less than stellar student at Occidental. Maybe he kept up the Kenyan angle for benefit. That is why Trump asked for his college transcripts. IMHO.

Also, I want to throw out the possibility that Obama was cagey about releasing his super official birth certificate because there is information on there that could be embarrassing. I know that someone upthread offered that perhaps the father's name was blank, but perhaps there is some other embarassing information. If he were legally adopted could his birth certificate been modified to show Lolo as his father. I know that in other states in the current time we live in that such an adoption (by a step father) will result in a new birth certificate. Anyway, if there ever were any credible documentation that showed Lolo adopted the young man then we would believe that he was raised as a Muslim and that would be very very bad for a man running for President.

All this, IMHO.

Terry said...

Blogger readering said...
FWIW former journalist @jimasher tweeting that good ol' Sid Blumenthal was peddling birtherism to him in 2008.

Back in the 90s, Syd tried peddling the 'Monica is a crazed stalker' story to Christopher Hitchens. I wonder how many journos he told the 'crazed stalker' story to before Hitchens blew the whistle? Syd is a long time friend of Hillary's and an anti-Israel lunatic who has likened IDF soldiers to Nazi storm troopers.

Fabi said...

EsoxLucius says Clinton has a sixty point lead. That's a lot!

GWash said...

I think we call all be sure that trump's birtherism was a scam just like many of his enterprises (i.e. his bankrupcy strategies, stiffing small businesses, charity foundation).. he knew early on that there was no 'there' there and the whole joe arpaio 'evidence' is pure bs... as bad as the other side is with lies and however much you dislike their candidate, these guys (trump etc) are lying to your face, scamming you with the 3 card monte campaigning and laughing all the way to the bank... trump is not interested in you unless he can get something for himself.. but then again maybe you could ask him his economic plan, energy plan, entitlement reform plan..my guess is that he will tell you it's going to be great !.. great for him - not so much for you... vote your own interests.. you will know trump by the company he keeps...

Terry said...

I should also mention that much of the GOP interest in Hillary's emails as SoS revolves around her formation of a intelligence gathering group, loyal to her first and the government second (if at all), and payrolled by the Clinton Global Initiative. Blumenthal ran this group. There are well-founded suspicions that Hillary was using her private email to send this group, through Blumenthal, classified info.
The implication is that she did not trust state department employees who might be more loyal to Obama than to her. That's gotta burn if you are Barrack H. Obama II.
Not one in a hundred liberals has ever heard of this. It's most likely true, Blumenthal's emails to Hillary have been hacked and distributed, and they contain some interesting references to classified information and operations he should not have known anything about.
Not one in a hundred liberals has ever heard of this. You can thank ABC, CBS, NBC, and the NY Times for that.
It is mind-boggling that some people, including some nominal Republicans, believe that a president Trump would be a greater threat to the security of the United States than a president Hillary Clinton.

Terry said...

GWash said...

I think we call all be sure that trump's birtherism was a scam just like many of his enterprises (i.e. his bankrupcy strategies, stiffing small businesses, charity foundation).. he knew early on that there was no 'there' there and the whole joe arpaio 'evidence' is pure bs... as bad as the other side is with lies and however much you dislike their candidate, these guys (trump etc) are lying to your face, scamming you with the 3 card monte campaigning and laughing all the way to the bank... trump is not interested in you unless he can get something for himself.. but then again maybe you could ask him his economic plan, energy plan, entitlement reform plan..my guess is that he will tell you it's going to be great !.. great for him - not so much for you... vote your own interests.. you will know trump by the company he keeps...

Everything that you have written here, gwash, applies to Hillary as much as it does to Trump. except Hillary has already done it. On Hillary's long of people and entities she uses her public office to benefit, where do he American People come in? Seventh? Eighth?
Surely they are behind the Clinton Global initiative, various foreign powers, the Democrat party, illegal immigrants, etc.

GWash said...

another birther type factoid... 'it's most likely true' what does that even mean? it is either true and someone has evidence or it's most like 'not true'... i guarantee if there was anything there the washington times and all of the right wing newspapers and tabloid would be all over it... so not only have the liberals not heard of this but no conservative have either... i love the phrase 'well-founded suspicions'.. if it's well founded that implies there is some kind of evidence or you can draw some kind of direct correlation between incidents that would imply there was something going on...

Terry said...

From a long Gawker story on the hacked Blumenthal emails. The "Drumheller" referred to is Tyler Drumheller, an ex CIA guy, then retired, now deceased.

In one exchange in March 2013, Blumenthal emailed Drumheller, "Thanks. Can you send Libya report." Drumheller replied, "Here it is, pls do not share it with Cody. I don't want moin speculating on sources. It is on the Maghreb and Libya." Cody is Cody Shearer, a longtime Clinton family operative—his brother was an ambassador under Bill Clinton and his now-deceased sister was married to Clinton State Department official Strobe Talbott—who was in close contact with Blumenthal. While it's not entirely clear from the documents, "Moin" may refer to the nickname of Mohamed Mansour El Kikhia, a member of the Kikhia family, a prominent Libyan clan with ties to the Libyan National Transition Council. (An email address in Blumenthal's address book, which was also leaked, was associated with his Facebook page.)

http://gawker.com/leaked-private-emails-reveal-ex-clinton-aides-secret-sp-1694112647

Terry said...

'it's most likely true' what does that even mean?
It is most likely true that 'gwash' is not your real name. Does that help?
'Critical thought.' come on, gwash, you can do it!

GWash said...

you should forward that information to rep connie mack... he might be able to use it... it's most likely true that truth is not most likely but is true... sorry it's getting late here.. when you are throwing innuendoes like that around i would hope that the level of established facts would support a statement... most likely is a guesstament..

exiledonmainstreet said...

"It isn't a mystery- he is confident and fearless. This fearlessness can and does lead to mistakes, but on balance it serves him much, much better than its opposite which is hesitance and doubt, always retreating under fire."

Yes. I voted for Cruz in the primaries, but I am becoming more than a reluctant Trump-because -#NeverHillary voter. That press conference today was sheer genius. I don't know if it's the genius of his managers or Trump himself but he could not have handled the media and the birther question better. They're bitterly clinging to the 2008 and 2012 playbook, throwing ridiculous crap at him like "Pepe the frog is a white supremacist symbol!!! Donald Jr. made light of the Holocaust!!!" and they are just making themselves look more and more ridiculous by the day. Like Grackle says, they don't know what to do, how to handle this guy. He's breaking all the rules. He's not acting like one of the GOPe Washington Generals Chuck loves so much, horsewhipped, apologizing, retreating and - losing.

It's been a fun week. My only fear is that there is still too much time for the Dems and their media toadies to regroup. 5-3 at the bottom of the 8th is better than 5-3 at the top of the 4th.

BTW, did anybody read Hillary's twitter feed this afternoon? It's like Unknown\Inga wrote it. Hysterical. Literally so.

Birkel said...

Terry:

You are reading in hope over experience. GWash cannot regurgitate what his employers have not pre-approved.

Terry said...

CAN WE GET A TRUTH CRAPPING MACHINE OVER HERE FOR GWASH? WE NEED A TRUTH CRAPPING MACHINE HERE! STAT!

Birkel said...

...trading in...

Jonathan Graehl said...

#She'sWithHerpes

Jonathan Graehl said...

Trump got Obama's birth cert (which I guess isn't the original) released and the matter put to rest. Hillary's campaign raised it but was never concerned with the truth, apparently - at least, their interest ended after she lost.

Original Mike said...

Blogger Fabi said..."EsoxLucius says Clinton has a sixty point lead. That's a lot!"

Algebra! It's so hard!

Unknown said...

Is Hillary even been campaigning the last few days? Did I hear that she came back after passing out during the sept 11 memorial observances? Or is she she still in bed?

Gk1 said...

Trump is racking up appearances every other day (He was in Miami today) and Grammy Clinton is still recovering from "flumonia", whatever that is. Isn't it funny 2 weeks ago the democrats where speculating there may not be any debates at all because Trump will quit because he's so far behind. I'm beginning to wonder if Hillary's inevitability is a myth?

Mutaman said...

Forget about the Birth certificate. Back in 2008 Ann definitivly proved that HRC was using racial fears against Obama- Remember "NIG-- " on the kids pajamas?

http://althouse.blogspot.com/2008/03/why-are-letters-nig-on-childs-pajamas.html

Michael K said...

Gwash

Blank facebook profile
Hillary troll.

Kansas City said...

The rebirth of the "birther" issue if very interesting. Trump must have figured out that Hillary's friends in the media were getting ready to attack on the issue, so he came up with a strategy to preempt them. I think he got very lucky when it took only a few hours for Clinton's campaign manager to admit there was a staffer circulating the story and an honest reported exposes that Hillary's best friend Sid was pushing it. I don't think Trump's people knew those facts. Now, Trump can turn the issue on Hillary.

BONUS: In the 2008 primaries, Obama stated in a debate and ran an add that stated "Hillary will say anything to get elected." It would be political malpractice if he is not ready with that at the first debate. He should be finding other stuff Obama said to use in debates.

Kansas City said...

I give Hillary credit that she has looked pretty healthy the last few days.

But I think that I agree with Scot Adams that the effect of an old woman collapsing at a 9/11 memorial probably killed her chance of winning. Voters cannot avoid being influenced by it.

He also said voters will use the very dumb basket of deplorables as the "fake because" to rationalize not voting for Hillary.

He is a very smart guy with an unusual approach to election analysis. I think he may be correct.

Mac McConnell said...

Trump has consistently been able to toll the leftist with byline human centipede because it's had the metamorphosis from Obama's ass to the Grifters. Unfortunately for that parasite it's host is unhealthy.

Terry said...

The thing with Trump is that you know it's all out there, and that any gaffe that he makes is instantly reported on, in depth, by the press. With Hillary something damaging might be released at any time.
I think Orwell had a word for it like "doublethink", but Hillary's fans know that she has lied to them and will lie to them in the future, but they have to pretend that she tells nothing but the truth. They know, for example, that if no video of her collapse on 9/11 existed, her spokesdrones would have said that she merely tripped getting into the van and the eyewitnesses who reported otherwise were mistaken or hyper partisan, far right wing republicans, and they would have believed that lie even if they knew it was a lie, until some undeniable proof of the truth (like a video) was made public. If there was no video, the Hillary spokesdrones would still be making the "overheated" claim, and calling any doubters crazed, right wing conspiracy theorists.
What makes the Left unusually dangerous these days is its overt madness.

Annie said...

Kansas City, how does someone look pretty healthy after being diagnosed with pneumonia the same day they put their cankle in their mouth to insult the voters as 'deplorable', a week ago? And nearly faceplanting with it five days ago. Unless *gasps* it was a lie!!

Bruce Hayden said...

The thing that should scare Crooked Hillary, the Dems, and their minions in the MSM is that Trump is inside their decision loop. Everyone knew that he was going to address the birther issue today, so tuned in, and he got to talk about other stuff. And, pretty much, you knew that he had to disavow it, or he wouldn't be talking about it. This isn't something to double down with, so he wasn't going to. The amazing thing was that the Clinton camp, seeing this pending, hadn't done their homework, and realized that this was a trap laid for them. They should have ignored it completely, but couldn't, because it was too juicy. Except that the trap was that her people had started the rumor almost never nine years ago.

Meanwhile, her campaign is still running stale ads, like the one with prominent Republicans calling Trump dangerous. That is so pre-convention. It is attacking the Trump from last spring, and not the new, disciplined, Trump. Not that many people are going to be influenced by what a small group of insider Senators say about him, esp since most people aren't going to recognize most of the names or faces. Wonder how she can have spent hundreds of millions in advertising, and her opponent is rapidly catching her? That is how - with all that ad money buying stale ads many cycles old. I had seenthat ad probably better than a dozen times already, I immediately recognized it, and mostly ignored it, since there was nothing new.

Oh, and I loved his attack on her opposition to the 2nd Amdt. She has always wanted to restrict guns. So, he called her out, suggesting, essentially, that she lead by example, and start by having her (heavily) armed security give up their weapons. What can she say here? I'm still another briar patch. She did say that she wanted to appoint Justices that would limit Heller, weakening no the 2nd Amdt. She does travel surrounded by (heavily) armed security, at tax payer expense, and has done so for almost a quarter of a century now. She is an elitist and a hypocrite. Pretty much anything she says here will just reinforce these things and backfire.

Terry said...

Hillary is already turning the US into a third world nation, right before our eyes:
Former Haitian President Aristide collapses at rally, said to be fine
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/former-haitian-president-aristide-collapses-at-rally-said-to-be/3134528.html

Rusty said...

EsoxLucius said...
It didn't take long for the suicidal Trump to come roaring back. Today in Miami: “I think that her bodyguards should drop all weapons, they should disarm. I think they should disarm immediately. Take their guns away, she doesn’t want guns. Let’s see what happens to her. Take their guns away, OK, it would be very dangerous.” The party of Lincoln, suggesting assassination.

If you're going to call for gun control you have to be willing to lead from the front. Alright you want a gun free society? Start with hers.

" The party of Lincoln, suggesting assassination."
I would really like to know the logical process that led to that conclusion, but I'm a firm believer in the communicative property of stupidity.

EsoxLucius said...

The NRA, which claims to represent gun owners, but in reality collects millions from gun makers, has been making money duping NASCAR voters for eight years to buy guns to protect themselves from Obama's acorn kenyan ATF imaginary army. If they had the power, they would repel the 25th amendment and reelect the current president. Forced to do the next best thing, they have to demonize Hillary and push the meme that she wants to take away firearms. Nothing could be further from the truth. She, like Obama, has proposed no legislation affecting guns despite daily carnage, and is on record taking $5400 from Jeff Forbes and Elizabeth Greer, two registered NRA lobbyists. If you care about poor white voters, as I do, you'll break this myth that anybody wants to take away any guns. If not, you're a shill for the rich.

Bruce Hayden said...

I agree with Rusty there. You pretty much have to be brain dead not to put Crooked Hillary's desire for more gun control and limits on the 2nd Amdt with Trump's suggestion that she lead from the front, and give up her heavily armed security first. She was acting elitist and hypocritical, essentially saying that her life is important enough that she needs and deserves machine gun toting Secret Service protection (for almost a quarter century now) and the rest of us shouldn't be able to possess and carry handguns to protect our lives.

The trick, as always, with the Crooked Hillary shills, trolls, and flunkies, is that they take things grossly out of context. Which would be fine, if we didn't have the context readily available. And, they take things literally, when they weren't meant to be. As here, it just makes the rest of us laugh at them for looking humorless and clueless.

Bruce Hayden said...

Eso shows again why it is dangerous to parrot Crooked Hillary talking points. To start with, the claim that she hasn't proposed gun grabbing legislation is typical Clinton parsing of the truth. She hasn't, because to do so in an election year would be stupid. And, because it wouldn't survive the courts if passed. What she has said is that she would appoint Justices to the Supreme Court who would overturn the Heller and McDonald decisions. These are the court cases that established that the 2nd Amdt protects an individual fundamental right, and that right includes the right to armed self defense. I should add that the "Assault Weapons" ban signed into law by her husband (and which expired ten years later) would not come close to surviving the sort of increased scrutiny required by these two Supreme Court cases. Claiming that she wasn't proposing or endorsing anti-gun legislation is therefore irrelevant, and realistically a red herring.

Now, to the NRA - they aren't powerful because they have a lot of money. Michael Blumenthal and George Sorros funded anti-gun organizations have a lot more. So does the Crooked Hillary campaign. What they don't have are almost ten million rabid members who will clog the phones of their Congrssman or Senator if they even think of voting for gun grabbing legislation.

Finally, the daily carnage. Again an attempt to distract and misdirect. What is ignored is that the daily carnage is almost entirely in inner city minority (mostly black) poor neighborhoods in cities run by Democrats almost excusively for better than the last half century. And that the social conditions that encouraged this violent behavior are very likely the direct result of subsidizing fatherless child rearing through the social programs enacted by Dem politicians, starting with LBJ's War on Poverty some half century ago. The level of gun violence is actually declining throughout the rest of the country. And, making things worse over the last year or two, has been the Ferguson effect, greatly enabled by the Sorros funded Black Lives Matter movement.

Mick said...

The "Law Prof" said,

"According to that memo, which I'm reading for myself, one of the 4 factors that could hold back Obama was: "Lack of American roots." This was — I've long thought — a powerful argument against Obama, much better than the question of where he might have been born.

Since his mother was an American citizen, most Americans would say that was enough to make him an American citizen by birth, and anything else about "natural born citizen" is an annoying technicality. Much more useful was the cluster of factors that made him seem insufficiently American, and Penn was correct to notice them".


Really? A "Law Prof" doe not think that the Constitution should be followed? Especially with respect to the highest office in the land? Are you admitting that Hussein Obama is "technically" not a natural born Citizen and not eligible for the office he holds? What other "technicalities" in the Constitution would you ignore?

When the executor of the laws is not a legal entity then the law of a Republic does not exist. The law is only what those in power say it is--- THAT is what is happening right before your eyes as you gaze down from the an Ivory Tower of Academia that has abandoned the Republic and the Constitution.

Here is what the LAW SAYS:

"The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners". Minor v. Happersett, 88 US 162, @ 167 (1875); Wong Kim Ark, 169 US 649 @ 680 (1898).

The question of Virginia Minor's citizenship was directly before the court, as she was saying that forbidding her to vote was a violation of her right to citizenship under the 14th amendment. The SCOTUS said that she indeed was a citizen, because she was a natural born Citizen (she did not need the 14th Amendment to determine her citizenship, just A2S1C5), but that the right to citizenship did not confer the right to vote--- still held today--- SEE Bush v. Gore). (PRECEDENT-- "a judicial determination in support of the holding of the case"-- They determined that she was indeed a US Citizen because she was a natural born Citizen--born of US Citizen parents in the US) The holding was cited 24 years later in Wong Kim Ark (3 TIMES!!!) See page 680. Am I lying? LOOK IT UP!!

What were those kids learning before you thankfully retired?

EsoxLucius said...

I expected more out you, Bruce. I look forward to your thoughtful rejoinders, not more conservative talking points. I would identify myself as a Kemp Republican and don't think the Democratic Party wants to talk about its ties to the NRA. Criticizing Heller runs the political gamut from Bob Levy, Mike Bloomberg, and Mark Tushnet. It's disingenuous to say that the NRA has no money when every right wing media group parrots their message. And you know that the inner city guns aren't coming from the neighborhoods, but vampire warehouse stores surrounding the cities, taking money while african americans bleed. Orwell said "To admit that an opponent might be both honest and intelligent is felt to be intolerable." I think that you, Bruce, are more honest and intelligent than you purport to be.

Rusty said...

EsoxLucius @ 10:26

If you expext more then refrain from rediculous stupid shit like "The party of Lincoln suggesting assasination."
Another thing. There are 100 million gun owners. The NRA has two million members. You are giving them way too much credit.

Bruce Hayden said...

Here is the entire paragraph, from the Trump speech:

Now you know, she’s very much against the Second Amendment. She wants to destroy your Second Amendment. Guns, guns, guns, right? I think that what we should do is–she goes around with armed bodyguards like you have never seen before. I think that her bodyguards should drop all weapons. They should disarm. Right? Right? I think that they should disarm — immediately. What do you think, yes? Yeah. ‘Take their guns away!’ She doesn’t want guns, take their — let’s see what happens to her. Take their guns away, okay? It’d be very dangerous.

This shows the lines that Eso was quoting in context. Trump was saying that if Crooked Hillary wants to take gun rights away from Americans, she should lead from the front, not be a hypocrite, and be the first to give up armed protection. The claim that this is dangerous first ignores the context, and second assumes that her life is more important than those of most of the rest of America. And why should her life be more important? It surely isn't to most Americans. Definitely not to me.

Bruce Hayden said...

Not sure who Levy is, but Tushnet is far from a conservative, and Bloomberg is a well known gun grabber, who has spent most lions trying to disarm Americans, while protected at all times by his own armed security. Again, a hypocrite of the first order in this area, just like Crooked Hillary. The problem is that Heller reviewed the historical record and found that, instead of the group right insisted upon by progressive revisionists, the right to keep and bear arms has been an individual fundamental right since well before our founding, and only enshrined in the 2nd Amdt by the paranoid Antifederalists gained power over the more trusting Federalists. That the founders believed this to be a fundamental right is emphasized by the fact that the first shots of the Revolutionary War ("The Shot Heard Around the World") were in response to the British marching to seize the arms and ammunition of their American subjects. Most of the opposition by those on the left to the decision revolve around the argument that it is really is a group right, and not an individual right, despite the historical record, its wording, and that it would be the only amendment in our Bill of Rights that didn't protect an individual right, but rather a group right. In short, wishful thinking and revisionism.

The NRA is a convenient boogeyman on the left. But it isn't reality. Or, I should say that it isn't all powerful, nor is it run by and for the gun lobby. Most of what it does in real life is to regulate safety training and shooting competitions. I shoot a couple times a week, know a number of shooters, and the only NRA members I know are NRA certified firearms instructors. They belong because that gives them interstate certification. Which allows them to earn money teaching classes necessary for getting hunting and concealed carry licenses. I don't belong, and have no interest in joining. Why? Because they too quickly sell out the interests of their individual members in favor of those evil gun companies. And that means that they are too willing to do deals with the devil (I.e. Left wing gun grabbers), to trade some gun control for short run expediency. But for a lot of gun owners, this is not a place where you can compromise (and, no, there is no trading off against other, less fundamental, rights). Because, for one thing, the gun grabbers, led by your Michael Bloomberg, have made clear that whatever limitations they can get are merely a starting point. What I don't think that the left understands, with all their AstroTurf movements, like OWS and BLM, is that gun rights is a mass, grassroots, bottom to top, movement. The NRA doesn't lead - rather, it reluctantly follows its members.

Bruce Hayden said...

Sorry, Apple spellcheck strikes again. I meant to say that Michael Bloomberg has spent many millions trying to take guns out of the hands of average Americans, while protected at all times by his own armed security. The difference now with Crooked Hillary, is that now he pays for his armed security (we pay for hers, of course, and have for a quarter of a century now), and hers carry machine guns, while his probably no longer do, since leaving office as NYC mayor.

EsoxLucius said...

Please, Bruce, don't tell me you don't know who Bob Levy, a prominent attorney of the Cato Institute is. At least you could have Googled the name, but then that would cut into your dress up revolutionary war tea party fantasy. If the NRA follows its members, why isn't for what 75% of its members want, stronger restrictions on firearms?
o http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/01/28/strong-majority-of-americans-nra-members-back-gun-control
o http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2015/mar/18/lena-taylor/most-nra-members-back-background-checks-all-gun-pu/
o https://www.americanprogress.org/press/release/2015/11/17/125618/release-gun-owners-overwhelmingly-support-background-checks-see-nra-as-out-of-touch-new-poll-finds/

EsoxLucius said...

Please explain how any thinking person can vote for this asshole. I really want to know:
“Just before I got off the plane, a bomb went off in New York and nobody knows exactly what’s going on,” Trump said, “but we are living in a time when we’ve got to get very tough, folks. We’ve got to get very, very tough.”

He went on, “It’s a terrible thing that’s going on in our world and in our country and we are going to get tough and smart and vigilant. We’re gonna end it. We’re gonna end it.”

He went on to say how happy he is to be in Colorado, “and a new poll from Emerson just came out and we’re up four points in Colorado!”

Bad Lieutenant said...

You know, Esox, somebody with a fine sounding title like diagnostic toxicologist would in theory be an intelligent person, but you really have nothing to offer here. You are definitely replaceable by any other troll. Possibly the other trolls are all better than you. What are you feigning to find objectionable in your quote of Trump's words?

EsoxLucius said...

Bad Lieutenant, I am sorry that I don't subscribe to the prevailing theory that Hillary has Parkinson's, a drinking problem, is drugged, or any of the crap I've been reading here. Like the Republican party, this board got taken over by trolls and stopped offering me anything. As you say, I'm just wasting my time.

Bad Lieutenant said...

I don't have a theory, but I have eyes, and I can see that she's not a well woman. You tell me.

Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.