June 12, 2016

20 dead in Orlando in what police are calling a "terror incident." UPDATE: 50+ dead.

"About 20 people were killed and at least 42 people were wounded when a gunman armed with an assault-style rifle, a handgun and possibly an explosive device opened fire inside a gay nightclub in Orlando, Fla., about 2 a.m., Police Chief John Mina said."
The gunman was not from the Orlando area and was organized and well-prepared, the police said.

The gunman was found dead inside the Pulse nightclub, one of the largest gay clubs in Orlando, about 5 a.m. after a shootout with officers who were attempting to rescue dozens of people who were being held hostage, said Chief Mina. He confirmed that the gunman had been killed by the police....
Here is the club's Facebook page. Its message at 3 a.m. was: "Everyone get out of pulse and keep running."

From the comments at the Facebook page:
I was there. Shooter opened fire @ around 2:00am. People on the dance floor and bar got down on the floor and some of us who were near the bar and back exit managed to go out through the outdoor area and just ran. I am safely home and hoping everyone gets home safely as well....

Glad to hear you're okay. Was the club a gun free zone...? Did they check at the door for weapons?...

no, there's no checking for weapons. But there's barely even bad looks in there. It had been, from my experience, always nice and very safe in the club....

I know what you mean.... the clubs I've been to in West Hollywood were like that, very friendly. This is the reason why I carry concealed whenever I can when I'm out, simply because you never know if you'll be in harms way or not.

Probably is a Muslim, that's the reality of shit with the way everything's been... sorry not sorry....

... 20 people have just been shot and some fools are already trying to put a blood libel on all Muslim Americans. I'm sure you're just a great guy....

the Muslim religion teaches tolerance and acceptance. Please take your close minded speculations somewhere else and open a book before you go attacking an entire religion....

my heart is heavy :( this is 2016.....why are we killing one another over our sexuality when there are so many more important things to worry about....Prayers to everyone involved, except the twatnoodle(s) who instigated this situation, I hope they find you and make your life a living hell for all the lives you've taken and the lives you've changed forever with your selfish actions.

184 comments:

Mark said...

Horrible.

Hope that people wait for information before the rush to judgment.

rhhardin said...

Nobody seems to have first suspected a Trump supporter for some reason.

Bad news that it's islam and gays. Two protected groups.

This can only be dealt with by making it a gun control issue.

David Begley said...

Religion of Peace at work again.

Freder Frederson said...

And let the hate start in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1.

Too late rhhardin already raised his hate filled head. Can Michael K. be far behind.

It's at times like this I miss Cedarford. At least he was creative enough to somehow make in the Jews' fault.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

Makes me sick to my stomach.

sy1492 said...

...teaches tolerance and acceptance

HAR!

robinintn said...

I was wondering how long it would take to get to the real story, which of course is the "anti-Muslim backlash". The actual victims and the facts of the attack will be down the memory hole with alacrity. Doesn't fit the narrative. I'll give it a couple more hours before Bloomberg, et al, begin the unseemly anti-gun propaganda.

MayBee said...

The poor people waiting to hear from loved ones.

CWJ said...

Freder Frederson defing hate down to a meaningless epithet to throw at his supposed opposition.

virgil xenophon said...

The FBI is now stating FOR THE RECORD that this guy had "made terror threats in the past." So...if this guy was a known quantity why wasn't he more closely "monitored?" Like the current tv ad about the bank guard during a robbery who claims he is only a "monitor" to which the ad asks "what's the use of a credit monitor when prevention is what is wanted. Do we have to wait until mass slaughter occurs before our law enforcement and intelligence agencies can ACT? Newt Gringrich was just on Fox news saying that our laws may have to be changed to allow preventive detention in the same way we handled Nazi sympathizers on US soil in WW II.

Fernandinande said...

Freder Frederson said...
And let the hate start in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1.


So "the hate" didn't start with "About 20 people were killed and at least 42 people were wounded" ?

cubanbob said...

Freder Frederson said...
And let the hate start in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1.

Too late rhhardin already raised his hate filled head. Can Michael K. be far behind.

It's at times like this I miss Cedarford. At least he was creative enough to somehow make in the Jews' fault.

6/12/16, 8:25 AM"

So being a jerk isn't enough for you. no sir, you start by going full asshole.

MadisonMan said...

What a thing to wake up to and read. Even more so for someone waiting to hear about someone they love.

MadisonMan said...

BTW -- kind of a google news aggregation fail, given that the #3 story I see about this news this one. I'm curious how this was related in the google universe to a nightclub shooting.

rhhardin said...

Dynamics always require that the entertainment value be kept high, lest people tune away.

The gays as victims narrative, the muslims as victims narrative, and the gun owner as oppressors narrative all have to be juggled.

Trump is available for a narrative as well, climate of violence and hurtful insults and all.

I don't know if killing gays in the middle east will come up. It's bad for the muslims as victims narrative.

Or cafes in Isreal, which would be an anti-Palestinian narrative.

virgil xenophon said...

@robinintn/

Whatever in our immediate past could possibly lead you to such utterly shameful conclusions? I'm agast, I tell ya, totally agast..

Ron Winkleheimer said...

It doesn't matter what "Islam" teaches.

What matters is what followers of the prophet believe it teaches.

And, having "opened a book" namely the Koran and read it, I can honestly report that "tolerance and acceptance" does not appear to be a major theme of the text.

Anyway,

rhhardin said...

Politicians will free-ride on whatever narrative the news biz comes up with for viewership.

pm317 said...

Drudge says -- He is a Muslim, also a US citizen born here in 1986 to Afghan parents. Obama is sighing a sigh of relief that it is not a Syrian refugee.

Laslo Spatula said...

My first guess when I heard the news was an angry cake decorator.

I am Laslo.

pm317 said...

Laslo wins the thread.

Larry J said...

It's too early to say anything definitive, but there's this:

"The gunman, whose identity was not immediately released, “may have leanings” toward radical Islam, FBI Special Agent in Charge Ron Harper said when asked by Fox News whether the suspect had ties to Jihadist terror groups. Harper said the investigation is looking into possible threats made previously by the suspect in connection to radical Islam groups. He said the agency is still investigating and has yet to confirm any role a terror group may have played in the mass shooting.

“There are allegations the individual made threats in the past to having ties to terrorist organizations,” Harper told Fox News."

Purely a coincidence, I'm sure.

traditionalguy said...

ISIL sends its greetings.

MSNBC is in mourning, not about the dead and wounded, but about this affirming Trump's wisdom. They see Hillary as the victim here.

Rusty said...

Fredder is so politically correct he shoots his own foot off. But he's a liberal and doesn't own a gun. So i guess he used some fireworks or something.
Sorry.
Haven't had my coffee yet.

rcommal said...

Just awful.

Gahrie said...

the Muslim religion teaches tolerance and acceptance

This is simply a lie.

Gusty Winds said...

Radical Islamic Terrorism.

Come on....it's ok Hillary....you can say it.....let's go slowly......rrrrraaaaddiiiccaaallll.....iiiissssslllaaaammmiiiicccc....ttteeerrrrrrooorrrriiiisssmmmm....

Very good! Now let's go get a shawarma and some falafel. You'll feel better.

Gahrie said...

And let the hate start in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1.

Seems to me the hate started around 2:00 this morning......

damikesc said...

The shooter was Omar Mateen.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

@Gahrie

A lie requires uttering something that you know is a falsehood. The poster probably believes what they said due to their indoctrination.

robother said...

The reflexive Democrat condemnation of any ties to Islam (on the threads Ann cites and comments here) makes Meade's Battered Wife Syndrome analogy more literally true than I realized.

virgil xenophon said...

@traditional guy/

"MSNBC is in mourning."

You noticed..

Martha said...

So will we become the new Israel and expect terror attacks on US soil —at nightclubs, at restaurants, at concerts—to occur periodically? This type of attack was inevitable. Only surprised the terrorist was born in the USA.

Gahrie said...

The poster probably believes what they said due to their indoctrination.

So they are repeating a lie. It is still a lie.

By the way, the Koran explicitly gives Muslims the direction to lie to unbelievers in order to advance the cause of Islam. The cause of Islam is world domination.

virgil xenophon said...

But...but...but...our man Omar was an American citizen born on US soil...so it's all good, right? Just a lone disgruntled American--nobody here but us chickens! Can't WAIT to hear Obamas spin on this!

Fernandinande said...

rhhardin said...
Nobody seems to have first suspected a Trump supporter for some reason.


My conspiracy theory is that Trump hired the guy.

David Begley said...

This hurts Hillary badly with independents. And FL is a key swing state.

JAORE said...

Can't help her much in the gay voting block either. It may not swing a huge number to vote for Trump. But, assuming the Islam connection holds, gays have a reasonable basis for believing they are prime targets. Under those circumstances would you make the effort to go vote for someone what dismisses any concerns about thousands of poorly screened refugees and a porous border?

Heck it might even generate an uncomfortable question or two for Hillary during the campaign..... nah.

theribbonguy said...

MSNBC has moved on from political mourning and have moved on to pitching a hate crime. Apparently Omar's daddy sez 'lil Omar was enraged when he saw a couple of gay men kissing.

Robin Eatmon said...

All the death and suffering caused by one person. He will rot over and over again in hell. With all the time, money and effort monitoring silly phone calls over at the NSA you would think the FBI could monitor one guy who had already been pegged a potential threat. Why?

MayBee said...

50 people dead

Ron Winkleheimer said...

lie - an intentionally false statement

The poster is uttering a falsehood if they believe what they are saying.

Yeah, its a distinction most people don't care about, but I'm a bit of a nerd on precision in the words we use.

J. Farmer said...

Frequented this nightclub many times in my mid-20's. The Big Book of Arab Fairytales, like its predecessor the Big Book of Jewish Fairytales, has a well known distaste for men who prefer the company of other men. Obviously a very important issue to the creator of the universe. Right.

Dr Weevil said...

A few points no one's made:
1. Yes, Maybee, there are lots of "poor people waiting to hear from loved ones", but there are probably also some who don't know they should be waiting to hear from loved ones. These days, I imagine most of the parents know their sons are gay, but there are probably some grandparents and great-grandparents getting two kinds of news at once.
2. According to Twitter, the guy was a registered Democrat. On the other hand, he must not have been a very serious Democrat, because he attacked a gay bar on Latino night (salsa, merengue, etc.) which means most of those he killed were undoubtedly Democrats, too. Apparently his religion was more important than his politics.
3. Freder Fredersen apparently thinks blaming Jews for what Muslims do is better than blaming Muslims for what Muslims do. It's hard to disagree with cubanbob when he says FF's "going full asshole" - unless someone wants to be picky and say "going? gone long ago!".

rcommal said...

50 murdered, 53 in hospital.

cubanbob said...

J. Farmer said...
Frequented this nightclub many times in my mid-20's. The Big Book of Arab Fairytales, like its predecessor the Big Book of Jewish Fairytales, has a well known distaste for men who prefer the company of other men. Obviously a very important issue to the creator of the universe. Right.

6/12/16, 9:26 AM"

Thanks for pointing out your anti-semitism with your innuendo. Funny this massacre and others haven't been carried out by Jews.

rcommal said...

Many of those in hospital critically injured, unspecified number in surgery.

J. Farmer said...

@cubanbob:

"Thanks for pointing out your anti-semitism with your innuendo."

What are you talking about? Not believing in the Hebrew Bible makes you an antisemite?

Remember when an ultra-orthodox Jew stabbed a 16-year-old girl to death during a gay pride parade in Jerusalem? I'm sure he wasn't motivated in the least by his religious beliefs.

President-Mom-Jeans said...

J. Farmer.

The only book you should be concerned with is the Big Book of Go Fuck Yourself.

Blood still on the floor, and you find a way to take a dig at the jews.

I hope you get terminal pancreatic cancer.

J. Farmer said...

@cubanbob:

Praise for gay pride parade attack posted in Jerusalem

This article collects the public praise posted in various ultra-orthodox neighborhoods after the man stabbed six people. He had only been out of jail for a short period of time after attacking people at a gay pride parade in 2005.

Hey, Bob, here's a little tip the next time you feel like spouting off about something: know what the hell you're talking about.

MayBee said...

Dr Weevil said...
A few points no one's made:
1. Yes, Maybee, there are lots of "poor people waiting to hear from loved ones", but there are probably also some who don't know they should be waiting to hear from loved ones. These days, I imagine most of the parents know their sons are gay, but there are probably some grandparents and great-grandparents getting two kinds of news at once.


Sadly true.

J. Farmer said...

@President-Mom-Jeans:

"Blood still on the floor, and you find a way to take a dig at the jews."

Uh, no, I was taking a swipe at religion, you nitwit.

"I hope you get terminal pancreatic cancer."

Well, unlike you I am presuming, I don't believe in the power of prayer.

SGT Ted said...

So, killing 20 and wounding 40 because they are gay is NOT HATE.

Pointing out that the attackers religion was his self-declared prime motivation and justification, which is also the reasons used by hundreds of thousands of Islamic warriors and killers who also kill gays and women, is HATE.

Leftwingers are such simpletons.

Fernandinande said...

cubanbob said...
Thanks for pointing out your anti-semitism with your innuendo. Funny this massacre and others haven't been carried out by Jews.


I didn't see it that way. Not to speak for J.F., but it is rather bizarre that the fairytale books claim the creator of the universe doesn't like homos.

rcommal said...

Spokesperson just said that SWAT team officers rescued at least 30 hostages from the club.

J. Farmer said...

@Fernandinande:

"it is rather bizarre that the fairytale books claim the creator of the universe doesn't like homos."

Not to mention pigs or crustaceans.

Sebastian said...

"you would think the FBI could monitor one guy who had already been pegged a potential threat" How many thousand one guys like him are there?

mockturtle said...

The gays as victims narrative, the muslims as victims narrative, and the gun owner as oppressors narrative all have to be juggled.

I was thinking this, also. Complicated situation, narrative-wise.

And the perp worked as a security guard. :-\

Michael K said...

"Can Michael K. be far behind."

I didn't do it, Freder. I was asleep in bed.

Must have been workplace violence.

Feel better ?

rcommal said...

My God. It's estimated that around 320 people were in the club at the time, and a little over a hundred are reported to have been murdered or injured. Some piece of evil walks into a venue and shoots almost a third of the people there (based on the numbers and information gathered/released so far). My God.

donald said...

Correct Sgt Ted.

I understood tha J Farmer is the kind of asshole atheist that thinks he knows it all.

Tommy Duncan said...

The left has an urgent need to relieve their cognitive dissonance by blaming guns and Republicans. And the lack of jobs. And hatred spread by conservatives. And Trump. And evil Christians. And whites.

Michael said...

Fighting back is out of the question? 320 people and none tried to take this guy down? So many lessons.

Fernandinande said...

"Major Muslim Terrorists Makes This Declaration To All Americans: We Are Coming After You, We Will Attack Florida And Slaughter Americans There"
By Ted on June 9, 2016

J. Farmer said...

@donald:

"I understood tha J Farmer is the kind of asshole atheist that thinks he knows it all."

Hey, Donald, do you believe in the Quran? Or the Upanishads? Or the Pali Canon? No? I guess you're just the kind of asshole that thinks he knows it all.

Religious people claim to know the mind of god, but I'm the asshole know-it-all?

Laslo Spatula said...

The guy getting a blowjob in the parking lot at the time got lucky twice.

I am Laslo.

Gahrie said...

I understood tha J Farmer is the kind of asshole atheist that thinks he knows it all.

Isn't that all of them?

I have never understood the hostility of atheists to religion. Why the fuck do they care? Isn't it obvious that the more religion is marginalized, the coarser and more dangerous our society gets?

Every society based on atheism devolves into terror, death and despotism.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

"I have never understood the hostility of atheists to religion. Why the fuck do they care?"

So why criticize Islam? What the fuck do you care? Just don't believe in it. Simple. Problem solved.

Gahrie said...

Religious people claim to know the mind of god, but I'm the asshole know-it-all?

Every time a cross is removed, a Christmas pageant called off, and a prayer before the game banned, the assholeness of atheists is reinforced.

Just stand there quietly and respectfully and then get on with the rest of your life.

Gahrie said...

So why criticize Islam? What the fuck do you care? Just don't believe in it. Simple. Problem solved.

Because Islam is trying to kill me or enslave me, and destroy my civilization...one created by religion by the way.

Gahrie said...

By the way, as far as atheists are concerned, Christians will talk to you, and even pray for you. Muslims will cut off your head or stone you to death.

chickelit said...

J Farmer wrote: Well, unlike you I am presuming, I don't believe in the power of prayer.

MomJeans wasn't praying for your demise, he was hoping for it. I see no reason for you to attack the power of prayer in general.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

"Every time a cross is removed, a Christmas pageant called off, and a prayer before the game banned, the assholeness of atheists is reinforced. "

That's the best you've got? Just pathetic. Right, whose got time to be concerned with the cruel, backwards viciousness of the Quran or the Bible when Christmas pageants are being called off?

David Begley said...

Michael

The 320 who escaped didn't have guns. Pulse nightclub was a gun-free zone.

J. Farmer said...

@chickelit:

"I see no reason for you to attack the power of prayer in general."

I am not attacking something by saying I don't believe in it.

Gahrie said...

Right, whose got time to be concerned with the cruel, backwards viciousness of the Quran or the Bible

The fact that you can conflate Islam and Christianity is another example of your assholeness.

Christianity teaches to hate the sin, and love the sinner. Islam teaches to hate the sinner.

pm317 said...

Trump may have to deport some (unwanted and dangerous) US citizens .. (that sounds absurd, I know). Or kill by drone attack on a foreign land like Obama did -- now that is not so absurd because it actually happened with liberals and Obama supporters approving.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

"The fact that you can conflate Islam and Christianity is another example of your assholeness."

My only conflation is that I disbelieve in both of them equally.

"Christianity teaches to hate the sin, and love the sinner."

Why bother hating sinners when an eternity of damnation and hellfire awaits them.

Christianity makes no sense without Judaism, and I find Judaism absurd. If the cultural values of 1st century Palestine are your cup of tea, you're more than welcome to them.

buwaya puti said...

The nature of the venue and the condition of the people there may have played a role. One would expect some at least to have fought, out of so many, but I suspect that a great number were drugged or drunk. The other fault was the management, who did what they could in helping people flee, on the face of it a responsible act, but this may have been counterproductive.
It is a headscratcher. So many at such close quarters, most of them likely able-bodied, and a lone killer, the killer should have had no chance.

chickelit said...

@Farmer: You should take your assholier than thou attitude to a different forum. At least for a day.

J. Farmer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
shiloh said...

So, how is Trump gonna solve the mass shooting problem in America?

More guns? Less gun regulation?

More AK-47s?

Michael said...

David

Many decades ago men would run to the sound of gunfire, would use their numbers to overcome. Now we run. Now we hide. Now we pretend to be dead already.

Gahrie said...

Christianity makes no sense without Judaism, and I find Judaism absurd. If the cultural values of 1st century Palestine are your cup of tea, you're more than welcome to them.

1) The "cultural values of 1st century Palestine" have created the greatest, most free civilization on Earth , that provides the highest standard of living for the most number of people in human history. They created a civilization that allows you to be an atheist.

2) I personally am a deist, I just recognize the importance of religion, and specifically Christianity, in allowing civilization to exist.

It is a simple fact that most people need extrinsic modifiers on their behavior. This extrinsic modifier could be a priest on Sunday telling you to behave and be happy or misbehave and go to hell. Or the extrinsic modifier could be a thug in jackboots with a gun telling you to behave or you'll go to the camps. I know which I prefer, and given your politics I have a sneaking suspicion on which you prefer.

J. Farmer said...

@chickelit:

"@Farmer: You should take your assholier than thou attitude to a different forum. At least for a day"

No, but thanks for the advice.

Here's a real simple solution for anyone who doesn't like/agree with what I say: ignore me. Don't read what I write and don't respond to it.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

"I just recognize the importance of religion, and specifically Christianity, in allowing civilization to exist."

Recognizing some institutions historical significance has nothing to do with the validity or the truth claims underlying them. The Greeks created a pretty spectacular civilization for their time, and I don't think that obligates me to believe a damn thing about the Olympian pantheon (or take it all that seriously).

Fernandinande said...

Gahrie said...
I have never understood the hostility of atheists to religion.


Cuz religion is primitive 'n' stupid. Why shouldn't people be hostile to stupid ideas?

Why the fuck do they care?

Religion leads to incidents like the one under discussion, and has done so since forever. Why do you care to write about it?

Which other stupid ideas or philosophies do you think shouldn't be examined, criticized or made fun of?

Every society based on atheism devolves into terror, death and despotism.

Group A:
Below are the 10 countries viewed as least religious in the world:
Country Name Best Countries Overall Rank
1. Australia 6
2. Sweden 5
3. Germany 1
4. Netherlands 9
5. New Zealand 11
6. Luxembourg 14
7. Denmark 10
8. Canada 2
9. France 8
10. Austria 12

Group B:
"Africa and MENA (Middle East and North Africa) were found to be the most religious regions, while Thailand was considered the most religious country with 94 percent of respondents calling themselves religious. Armenia, Bangladesh, Georgia, Morocco, Fiji, and South Africa also had large numbers of people who identify as religious."
(Or here)

I'll go with Group A. At least in those regions I can make sacrifices to the Rain Gods without a mob burning down my wattle hut.

tim in vermont said...

Hope that people wait for information before the rush to judgment. - Mark

Deep down, Mark already had his suspicions, obviously. What he didn't want, was for anybody to give them voice.

buwaya puti said...

And, on the Muslim thing, hundreds of years of experience teaches that one must expect random attacks, raids, outbreaks by Muslims periodically if you have a Muslim population adjacent to other non-Muslim populations. This is the universal pattern. Under those circumstances, when a Muslim goes bad, is in despair, goes bandit, feels like joining a cult, he has a natural pre-defined path and target. This is the case even without international terrorist organizations inciting people on social media.
In Muslim countries they harrass or mob their non-Muslim neighbors. In non-Muslim countries it is terrorism against the majority.

tim in vermont said...

So, how is Trump gonna solve the mass shooting problem in America?

More guns? Less gun regulation?

More AK-47s?


Hillary has a better plan, she is going to invade more Muslim countries. That's her track record.

chuck said...

> the Muslim religion teaches tolerance and acceptance.

Riiight. I've heard that nonsense since 9/11. It's amazing to me how it became a central belief of liberals everywhere despite the historical evidence and contradictory proclamations by Muslims educated in the Koran. Not every Muslim is a terrorist, nor does every Christian turn the other cheek, but that doesn't change the fundamental teachings of either religion.

Gahrie said...

1. Australia 6
2. Sweden 5
3. Germany 1
4. Netherlands 9
5. New Zealand 11
6. Luxembourg 14
7. Denmark 10
8. Canada 2
9. France 8
10. Austria 12


All of those countries were created by Christians, based on Christian values.

Name one based on atheism that did not fall into terror, death and despotism? I'll start off with three that did..revolutionary France, the USSR and the Khymer Rouge.

Bruce Hayden said...

The 320 who escaped didn't have guns. Pulse nightclub was a gun-free zone.

The question for me is how many fewer would have died if this had not been a gun-free zone. That is one of the constants in these mass murderers - that they almost always take place in gun free zones, from the Luby's shootings in Texas (where a number of the patrons had left their guns in their trucks), up through all the school shootings, to the Aurora CO theater shooting, through San Bernadino, to this. All it would have taken was a number of armed patrons with a percentage representative of FL concealed carriers to confront the shooter. They couldn't because, like Luby's, their guns were locked in their vehicles or left home.

tim in vermont said...

This is a case of Islamic terrorism but the most important thing to Hillary's supporters is to turn it into a simple "mass shooting" so that the proper hate objects can be run up the flagpole.

Rusty said...

Blogger shiloh said...
So, how is Trump gonna solve the mass shooting problem in America?

More guns? Less gun regulation?

More AK-47s?

How would YOU solve it?

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

"All of those countries were created by Christians, based on Christian values."

What were those Christian values doing for the first 1800 years of their existence? Could there possibly have been some other variables at play here between the death of Christ and the almost two millennia that passed before the emergence of classical liberalism? Were the participants in Europe's century-long religious wars just not understanding the material the correct way?

Gahrie said...

Recognizing some institutions historical significance has nothing to do with the validity or the truth claims underlying them

True. And as I have said, I don't believe them. I don't believe in religion.

I just understand Christianity's importance to our civilization, and think it is a stupid idea to attack it.

chickelit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chickelit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
pm317 said...

Liberals say gun control and conservatives say Islam terrorists, couldn't it be both? Make it difficult for certain people to get guns.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

"I just understand Christianity's importance to our civilization, and think it is a stupid idea to attack it."

So you agree with me (you don't believe it), you just don't like my tone. Okay. Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

chickelit said...

J Farmer wrote: The Greeks created a pretty spectacular civilization for their time, and I don't think that obligates me to believe a damn thing about the Olympian pantheon (or take it all that seriously).

Well duh, but you can't say with certainty that the Greeks could have so facilely factored out religion from their lives in their time. In other words, do you care about cultural sausage making?

wholelottasplainin' said...

Fernandinande said...

Gahrie said...
I have never understood the hostility of atheists to religion.

Cuz religion is primitive 'n' stupid. Why shouldn't people be hostile to stupid ideas?

********************

You're a complete moron, a primitive and stupid moron.

The Christian religion, with its emphasis on individual morality and responsibility, helped laid the groundwork for the idea of democracy. The spirit of inquiry that we call "science" first took hold in the West and in China,
both embued with religion.

Where, I ask you, has atheism ever advanced civilization???

Will you dare to attempt an answer????

buwaya puti said...

It seems to me that even without guns in the hands of the victims, in most of these cases even unarmed people could have, if sufficiently aggressive and self-sacrificing, have subdued the killers and greatly limited the damage. These mass shootings are rare cases of course, but teaching the public similar aggression as a response to threats seems like a good approach to many other problems of life.
The mindset should be, in such a case, that one has been called, finally, to the great test of life, where one must prove his moral worth. Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain.

Michael K said...

"I have never understood the hostility of atheists to religion."

Atheism is a religion and heretics must be punished.

I guess this might be antigay prejudice but I am thinking of the difference between this shooting and the French train shooting last August.

That shooter was "well prepared", too. In Orlando, nobody tried to stop him except the guard who missed.

The French are enthralled by the three Americans who acted so swiftly to stop the Thalys gunman. In their news conference Sunday afternoon at the US embassy in Paris, they came over as archetypes of American masculine virtue: handsome, strong, modest.
Deep in the French gene, there is something that responds positively to this. It is the same spirit that is so grateful - 70 years on - for the American sacrifice in the Normandy landings: a recognition of the American capacity to join moral clarity with swift, decisive action.


That was BBC, by the way.

Gahrie said...

What were those Christian values doing for the first 1800 years of their existence?

Creating modern civilization.

Could there possibly have been some other variables at play here between the death of Christ and the almost two millennia that passed before the emergence of classical liberalism?

Sure there could been. I'm just not aware of any not caused by Christianity. Why not suggest a few and we can discuss them?

How come the ideals of classic liberalism never appeared anywhere else than Western Europe until brought there by Western Europeans?

Were the participants in Europe's century-long religious wars just not understanding the material the correct way?

A religious person might say yes. I'd just blame it on ambitious men.

J. Farmer said...

@Chickelit:

"Well duh, but you can't see with certainty say that the Greeks could have so facilely factored out religion from their lives in their time.

I have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean or what point you're trying to make.

I began this entire thread saying I found it odd that the gods of Abraham all seem to have big problems with gentleman who prefer gentleman. I find this very odd.

Michael K said...

" in most of these cases even unarmed people could have, if sufficiently aggressive and self-sacrificing, have subdued the killers and greatly limited the damage."

The rule is you run from a knife and charge a gun. Guns have longer reach. But you have to have someone with the instinct.

Gahrie said...

So you agree with me (you don't believe it), you just don't like my tone. Okay. Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

Not quite. I think it is a stupid idea to weaken and attack Christianity as you atheists feel compelled to do. I actually defend it because I feel it is necessary for the health of our civilization.

tim in vermont said...

Yeah, this is all about Christianity, gun ownership, anti gay feeling, basically whatever you can pull from whatever the cloud of properties that float around Republican in your mind that could conceivably stick.

What it is NOT about. Accepting more Islamist refugees, Hillary's ham-fisted policies in Syria and Libya, Terrorism.

J. Farmer said...

@Gahrie:

"Creating modern civilization."

And fracturing into various competing schisms and denominations. Jared Diamond wrote a big book about how geography is more explanatory than cultural values. I'm not really convinced by his thesis, but he makes compelling arguments and marshals considerable evidence for his case. In other words, I think it's probably a lot more complicated than your single-bullet theory of history.

cyrus83 said...

We will be able to tell what motivated this attack by how long the story is followed by the media.

If this attack turns out to have been motivated by radical Islamic leanings, then expect it to be disappeared by the media and never mentioned again after a few days, presumably right after they have to mention the funerals.

If it was not motivated by radical Islam but motivated by anything else, then the story will be in the media constantly as an anti-gay hate crime for much of the summer.

If I had to bet, the first outcome seems the way to go right now.

shiloh said...

"How would YOU solve it?"

Let the record show Rusty doesn't have a clue how Trump will solve the mass shooting problem in America. Probably because he also knows Trump himself doesn't have a clue how to solve any social/economic/political problem in America, let alone the gun problem.

buwaya puti said...

If the person has been correctly prepared, both guns and knives should be charged, cost what it costs. At that moment one is called to a higher purpose.

tim in vermont said...

Make it difficult for certain people to get guns. pm317

Which "certain people"? I am sure you are not going to say anything racist.

Michael K said...

"I found it odd that the gods of Abraham all seem to have big problems with gentleman who prefer gentleman."

That is one aspect of religion. I don;t know why homosexual sex was proscribed by The Bible. Maybe some early version of STDs.

I do know that Christianity emphasizes tolerance. "Love the sinner but hate the sin."

Islam does not mention tolerance.

There is an interesting book about why Christianity helped establish science and modern civilization and Islam did not.

It's titled For the Glory of God, and is pretty interesting.

I am an agnostic, myself, but the role of Christianity, and especially the Protestant variety, seems clear in the birth of and progress of science.

Angry atheists are not helping.

buwaya puti said...

Jared Diamond makes up what amount to a series of "just so" stories with no scientific support. When explaining case A vs B vs C he merely finds whatever seems plausible to him.
Its amusing that the best, most comprehensive model is population IQs.

Michael K said...

"Trump himself doesn't have a clue how to solve any social/economic/political problem in America, let alone the gun problem."

Says the Bernie voter who thinks Venezuela is just fine.

Just kidding about Venezuela but I am sure you have no concept of why that is happening.

Rusty said...

Gahrie said...
"I understood tha J Farmer is the kind of asshole atheist that thinks he knows it all.

Isn't that all of them?

I have never understood the hostility of atheists to religion. Why the fuck do they care? Isn't it obvious that the more religion is marginalized, the coarser and more dangerous our society gets?"

A real atheist who is a classic liberal wouldn't care at all. Your religion is none of my business. Nor is mine yours. As long as our practice of our religion does not trespass on each others fundamental rights there can be no problem. Which tells me that self proclaimed atheists that have to belittle other religions are simply liberals practicing their religion.
And yes, farmer is in love with his own intellect...or lack thereof.

chickelit said...

I have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean or what point you're trying to make.

That's OK. Your reaction alone gave me an answer. :)

tim in vermont said...

Let the record show Rusty doesn't have a clue how Trump will solve the mass shooting problem in America. - Shilo

So what is Hillary's solution to Islamic terrorism Shill-o. Oh wait, we can just look at her record... what does that tell us? Invade more Islamic countries!

cubanbob said...

Blogger shiloh said...
"How would YOU solve it?"

Let the record show Rusty doesn't have a clue how Trump will solve the mass shooting problem in America. Probably because he also knows Trump himself doesn't have a clue how to solve any social/economic/political problem in America, let alone the gun problem.

6/12/16, 11:03 AM"

Well we know for a fact that Obama doesn't have a clue and neither does Hillary.

J. Farmer said...

@buwaya puti:

"Its amusing that the best, most comprehensive model is population IQs.

Oh, I totally agree with that. Whether it's Ashkenazi Jews, Western Europeans, or Northeastern Asians. But Diamond is an academic in good standing at liberal institutions, so he is absolutely allergic to any explanation that might include the dreaded "r" word.

But then again, those population IQs were likely a result of the environmental pressures their ancestors were put under.

@Rusty:

"Your religion is none of my business."

If "religion" was merely a matter of private belief and practice, then your argument would be totally right. Strange how when we all get together in a forum like this and trash Islam (which I'm all for), people tend to nod along agreeingly. Only seems to be when their personal sacred cows are put in the crosshairs do they get a sudden case of the vapors.

Do you not "belittle" your ideological opponents all the time, Rusty?

cubanbob said...

J Farmer in you diatribe you conveniently forget that the overwhelming majority of Jewish leaders condemned the violence against the gays and against Muslims something that is noticeably different from that of Muslim leaders. I also noticed and apparently you have the lack of outrage by atheist leftists against terrorist attacks on Jews. Maybe you can explain the kind of crazy needed be an atheist member of Queers For Palestine or the love atheist communists governments have had for gays.

Bad as religionists are atheist Muslims hands down have the blood record.

buwaya puti said...

Homosexuality is fundamentally detrimental to survival, of the clan and tribe. It directs the reproductive urge to infertile couplings, leaves fertile women with no mates, reduces the need to bring women into the tribe, etc. A largely homosexual tribe will die out in a generation. That is a powerful reason to oppose it.
And, note, failing to marry and reproduce is a huge taboo in most traditional cultures, Abrahamic or not.
And I dont believe most homosexuals are born that way. It is a bad habit acquired in life, and partly a matter of fashion, that killer of populations. I also do not believe that homosexuality is such a minority trend; it seems to be far, far more prevalent especially among young white people of high social standing, and goes to explain much of their disastrous infertility.

Christy said...

Was the blood ankle deep on the dance floor?

Too soon?

J. Farmer said...

@cubanbob:

"J Farmer in you diatribe you conveniently forget that the overwhelming majority of Jewish leaders condemned the violence against the gays..."

No, that had nothing to do with my point. I was never drawing any kind of equivalency between the two at all. If you go back and read the post I wrote, I said that I found it odd that the sacred texts of the three monotheisms all concern themselves with men sleeping with men.

Was me calling the Quran the "Big Book of Arab Fairytales" Islamophobic. I don't think so. Mocking and disrespectful, sure. But not a phobia. And being mocking and disrespectful towards the Hebrew Bible doesn't make you an antisemite. I think this is pretty elementary.

As for the rest of your word salad, I'll leave those particular windmills for you to tilt at. Has nothing to do with anything I've written here today.

J. Farmer said...

@buwaya puti:

"it seems to be far, far more prevalent especially among young white people of high social standing, and goes to explain much of their disastrous infertility."

It seems? How are you getting an intuitive sense of the number of homosexuals in the world?

sane_voter said...

Over 100 Syrian refugees are entering the US every day. That is around 40,000 a year. Not counting the 100,000's of thousands coming in with normal immigration. Lovely.

sane_voter said...

We just need the FBI to keep tracking 100,000's of people and everything will be alright. By the way, that number goes up with every batch of immigrants admitted. No problem. Google will solve it with big data, of that I am sure.

shiloh said...

"Says the Bernie voter who thinks Venezuela is just fine."

Pay attention MK, you old belligerent codger, as I'm not a Bernie supporter. That would be your other lib buddy R&B.

Again, there aren't that many libs at Althouse so easy to keep track. Unless you're an old belligerent codger who is easily confused!

J. Farmer said...

@sane_voter:

For the record, I'm for no refugees period and no immigration (legal or otherwise) for at least 10 years. But what is your source for these numbers? They don't match with any of the figures I've seen.

Original Mike said...

"Blogger Gahrie said...I understood tha J Farmer is the kind of asshole atheist that thinks he knows it all.

Isn't that all of them"


Idiot.

buwaya puti said...

Reports on the ground from the kids high schools, among other things. It seems that we arent talking @2-3%, its more like 25%. And the incredible prominence of homosexuality in popular culture implies that it is far more popular, interesting, and fashionable than anyone could justify based on 2-3%.
I think that 2-3% number is a very great underestimate.

Laslo Spatula said...

"Oh Honey! I am just so glad you're alright! The doctor said the bullet didn't hit any major organs!"

"It's things like this that really make you realize how every moment matters."

"Indeed! (pause) Honey?"

"Yes, dear?"

"What were you doing at a Gay Nightclub, anyway?"

"It's times like this that make you realize you only have one life, and you need to live every moment of it."

"But, Honey..."

"It's like I can see things so clearly right now."

"I can see that. But: about the Gay Nightclub..."

"I feel unburdened, for the first time in my Life."

"Honey, I'm getting nervous..."

"Baby, I'm sorry, but I feel Free, finally, and can now actually Tell you the Truth: I'm Gay."

"But we've been married fifteen years. We have two kids..."

"And now I realize I was living a Lie."

"A lie? We just had sex two nights ago: a man and a woman."

"When we were having sex I closed my eyes and pretended I was fucking David Beckham in the ass."

"David Beckham? You don't even like soccer."

"My gay friends have helped me get interested in the sport. Lots of tight young bodies in shorts."

"Gay friends?"

"Well, men who sucked my cock."

"So when you were in my vagina you pretended it was Beckham's ass?"

"Well, sometimes. Sometimes it was Brad Pitt's ass, sometimes Forrest Whitaker, sometimes just some guy I saw on the street."

"Forrest Whitaker?"

He reminds me of the first guy who sucked my cock. Same lazy eye."

"This is a LOT to process..."

"Isn't it, though? I am Free, Free to Truly be Me."

"But what about OUR Life?"

"What?"

"What about OUR Life?"

"You never thought about being a lesbian, have you...?

"No! No, I haven't."

"Damn: that would have made all of this a lot easier..."


I am Laslo.

sane_voter said...

Syrians

Overall Muslim immigration

the numbers are all on the upswing, and the US government will bias the numbers to hide the actual amount. Very disturbing.

Scott said...

The Pulse is a "gun free zone". Patrons are searched on entering. For those who werent able to get out, help from the police didn't come for three hours. How many were killed in that three hour period is not yet known. But, in this case, "when seconds counted, the police were 3 hours away." Another question that will have to wait for an answer, is why no one rushed this guy. In our other nightclub shooting this weekend here in Orlando, the brother of Christina Grimmee rushed the shooter preventing further death or injury. All in all, a bad weekend to go clubbing in Orlando.

sane_voter said...

I have seen higher numbers for the overall muslim immigration before but couldn't find a reference quickly

buwaya puti said...

A lot of numbers are biased, mis-stated or under-reported.
Thats why it is important to go to the sources closest to primary data whenever possible.
I learned this lesson long ago early in the Internet era during discussions on CBO projections of tax collections and revenue models.
Its interesting just how much scope there is to spin these things. More now than ever.

Scott said...

Other than the police investigators, the largest population group gathered at the shooting site are the local, state and federal politicians. The elbow are flying to see who can get the microphone first.

Terry said...

"Again, there aren't that many libs at Althouse so easy to keep track."
Right this minute I am going to Huffpo and complain in the comments that there are too many liberal commenters at Huffpo. That's right. Then I'll do the same thing at TPM and Kos. Because those people have to know that they are liberal commenters! And the best way to engage them is to complain that they are liberal commenters! Over and over!

buwaya puti said...

TPM, Kos, and the like do not tolerate conservative commenters very long, especially anyone willing to discuss substance.
I have tried, I have experience in this.
It seems to me that a liberal/progressive willing to do that (argue substansively) here would get a good response, but that seems to be a very rare breed.

shiloh said...

Actually, there are currently a lot more cons (trolls) at HP than libs. 2008 it was about 50/50. But cons seek exposure so HP is ideal ie more blog hits by far than any other political site on the net.

Ironic because HP is only about 5% political content, but because it is such a huge popular site it just seems 100% political as most of their headline articles are politically related.

Joined HP in 2007 haven't made a post there in 3/4 years. It's good for headlines as Althouse steals er appropriates many of the articles for her own blog. Much like her current infatuation w/Scott Adams.

Michael K said...

"TPM, Kos, and the like do not tolerate conservative commenters very long, especially anyone willing to discuss substance.
I have tried, I have experience in this. "

I gave up after 2004 when I was banned from Washington Monthly because I did not support single payer.

Just like Ritmo, the commenters over there would go to my personal blog and then make nasty comments about personal stuff they learned. The "moderators" would delate my comment and leave the nasty reply., it was kind of funny for a while but then I gave up.

Shiloh likes HP and they have started to allow my comments to remain but I still don't go there much. Pretty single minded.

Michael K said...

"Pay attention MK, you old belligerent codger,"

Glad to hear it and I am a "belligerent old codger."

I took my son and grandson shooting a month ago and he got to shoot my AR 15 I got for Christmas. There are 500 rounds in the closet,

He also got to shoot the Walther PPK, which about right for his hand size. The Colt 1911 is too big. He is 10.

I first fired a Colt 1911 when I was about 10 in 1948. The recoil about knocked me down.

Yes, I am old and belligerent.

Next Christmas I want a Garand M1. Lovely rifle.

shiloh said...

MK, the truth shall set you free!

Gahrie said...

Next Christmas I want a Garand M1. Lovely rifle.

Me too. I was pretty happy when Obama reversed himself on the Korean rifles.

Fernandinande said...

'In fact, an imam speaking in Orlando in April said that killing gays according to Islamic law should be done "out of compassion [we must get rid of them now]"' (about 1:40 in video). He's been invited to speak at Stanford.

https://twitter.com/ZheelaJ -> https://www.facebook.com/seddique.mateen
Apparently this guy's father thinks of Afghanistan as "his government".
(Translating from gibberish produced semi-gibberish in English words).

J. Farmer said...

buwaya:

Reports on the ground from the kids high schools, among other things. It seems that we arent talking @2-3%, its more like 25%."

One out of every four students at your kids high school is gay? Count me skeptical.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Atheists who are assholes, as J. Farmer certainly appears to be, have this naive belief that gee, the world would be so much better without religion! (Sing along with me, "Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try...." Wow! Like, how cool is that!)

What do you think the world would be like if there was no religion? Do you think people would be less hateful and cruel and intolerant? Really? What evidence do you have for this? Your naivete is touching. I felt that way too, when I was a 16 year old atheist. I grew out of it.

Humans are hateful and cruel and intolerant because they are human, not because they are religious. In the absence of religion, they will find plenty of other reasons to hate and murder each other.

Christianity, at its' best, puts a check on human hatred and violence. Islam encourages hatred and violence. Pretending there is some sort of moral equivalence between Christians who don't want to bake a fucking wedding cake for gays and people who want to toss them off rooftops is willful ignorance.

Original Mike said...

"Atheists who are assholes,"

We're all assholes. Just ask Gahrie.

buwaya puti said...

Several high schools, and this was from some years ago.
Yes, I have met many of these kids, that is a very common thing for them to say, present as, etc. I have heard enough of them proclaim it in public.
It is awkward speaking to their parents, many of whom have just this one child, and now they know they wont have grandchildren. The emotions here are difficult to grasp. I am too much of a coward to speak with them after such an episode frankly.
This is San Francisco, but this phenomenon cannot be a biological matter, the parents are rarely homosexual themselves. This is certainly a fashion.

Anthony said...

Shouldn't be too hard to guess the narrative going forward:

-- GUNS GUNS GUNS
-- Trump and Republicans creating a Climate of Hate

Oh, and don't forget Worry About Anti-Muslim Backlash

buwaya puti said...

To add, it is the common thing to see these parents put a brave smiling face on it, but the undercurrent of bitterness and despair is easy to read on many.

Howard said...

Armed with an M-16 in semi-auto in a perch above the crowd with no defilade is a turkey shoot. One might imagine he focused fire on the ones trying to get to him. The police maybe had to cut holes in walls to get to him, taking 3-hours.

It is also possible that the shooter was a reformed homosexual who still had urges he couldn't control and he went ape-shit. Then it would be random violent islamic nut-jobbery sparked by violent homosexual guilt and not necessarily terrorism.

Also, if isis is smart, they would target American born young homosexual muslims for turning tpo the dark side. Start with religious teaching, deprogramming, blame the west for the fall into the pit of homo, etc.

Let's see. A million gods invented by humans on earth and some folks believe their's is the only one, the god of Abraham, thereby everyone is at least 99.999% atheist.

Religion is not primitive and stupid, it's sophisticated and controlling.

Darrell said...

This might have something to do with ISIS's call for terrorism in the US and Europe during Ramadan.

Nah. Just a coincidence.

jr565 said...

mulsim extremist targets gay people who all die defenseless and those who survive need to wait for people with guns to save them.
that's the left for you.

jr565 said...

" GUNS GUNS GUNS
-- Trump and Republicans creating a Climate of Hate

Oh, and don't forget Worry About Anti-Muslim Backlash


Yup. As Darell mentions ISIS calls for attacks during Ramadan. but its Trump creating a climate of hate and Trump is to be blamed for carrying out an attack during Ramadan. and how dare you assume that him declaring allegiance to ISIS had anything to do with his Islamic faith.

buwaya puti said...

Howard, it does not appear this was the situation. The club had several separate rooms, bars, dance floors, and the killer investigated even the bathrooms.

buwaya puti said...

Religion is sophisticated and controlling indeed. The problem though is the direction in which it controls.
There is no Muslim equivalent (in the orthodox Sunni/Shiite versions) of St Francis of Asissi, or Teresa of Avila.

J. Farmer said...

exiledonmainstreet:

Atheists who are assholes, as J. Farmer certainly appears to be, have this naive belief that gee, the world would be so much better without religion

Care to quote where I said that or made that argument?

"Do you think people would be less hateful and cruel and intolerant? Really? What evidence do you have for this?"

Your refuting an argument I never made.

"Pretending there is some sort of moral equivalence between Christians who don't want to bake a fucking wedding cake for gays and people who want to toss them off rooftops is willful ignorance."

Okay, I am convinced. You are, indeed, a skillful destroyer of straw men.

Darrell said...

You can not have reformers in Islam because the Qur'an is the exact word of Allah and any disagreement is apostasy and grounds for death.

buwaya puti said...

You certainly can have Muslim heresies that seem to be inherently peaceful, the Baha'is (that is syncretic though), the modern Ismailis (the Aga Khans lot) and the Ahmadis are some. But these arent orthodox.

Darrell said...

Orlando is a Gun-Free Zone. Since this is a declared war on Western Civilization, local gun control does not factor into it. Warriors get their own weapons legally or illegally.

Darrell said...

The heresies may be peaceful, but the keepers of the flame are not. Your days are numbered.

Birkel said...

You lot who engage "J Farmer" are wasting time and effort. He is the worst kind of pedantic ass hole. He is not charming. He is not entertaining.

Rusty said...

Blogger shiloh said...
"How would YOU solve it?"

Let the record show Rusty doesn't have a clue how Trump will solve the mass shooting problem in America. Probably because he also knows Trump himself doesn't have a clue how to solve any social/economic/political problem in America, let alone the gun problem.

Ok. I'll try this again since you seem to have a difficult time with reading comprehension. Not to mention logic.

What is you're- shilohs- proposal-ideas- on how to prevent-stop- this from happening-occuring- in the future?

shiloh said...

Rusty, you tell me Trump's solution and I'll agree or disagree ie my original question before your diversionary tactics.

But there's the rub since Trump doesn't have an actual realistic solution for any problem. Just hateful/bigoted rhetoric free of any serious analytical analysis.

buwaya puti said...

Simple, though partial solutions -
- suspend legal immigration from selected Muslim countries.
- ban foreign funds transfers to US religious bodies, or require these be taxable income.
The symbolic value would be significant beyond the practical effect, especially if both were made conditional, revokable upon good behavior, say some designated period with an absence of attacks. Give CAIR skin in the game.

J. Farmer said...

@Birkel:

"He is not charming. He is not entertaining."

Nobody's perfect.

Gahrie said...

We're all assholes. Just ask Gahrie.

I asked a question, I didn't make a statement.

But you seem to be proving my point.

mockturtle said...

Islamists coming across the Mexican border is an issue that only Breitbart reports, AFAIK. And we only hear about those the Border Patrol pick up. Unsettling, to say the least.

Fernandinande said...

wholelottasplainin' said...
Will you dare to attempt an answer????


Dats a trivially easy one.

Modern western civilization is the result of overcoming religion, e.g. diseases no longer caused by witchcraft or god's wrath; don't kill people because their beliefs are slightly different, etc. That's why the best current societies are the least religious societies.

Birkel said...
You lot who engage "J Farmer" are wasting time and effort. He is the worst kind of pedantic ass hole. He is not charming. He is not entertaining.


Funny that he's not the one spewing personal insults.

buwaya puti said...
A largely homosexual tribe will die out in a generation. That is a powerful reason to oppose it.


At a tribal level, it would make sense to encourage it in other tribes. And it makes little sense to kill someone who's not going to reproduce anyway; why not also kill asexual people?

I also do not believe that homosexuality is such a minority trend; it seems to be far, far more prevalent especially among young white people of high social standing, and goes to explain much of their disastrous infertility.

Whites have lower rates of homosexuality than blacks or Asians. (google [homosexuality by race]).

Religion is sophisticated and controlling indeed.

I disagree. Religious morality is just folk-psychology, an inapt description of genetically based human behavior, and the superstitious parts of religion (cause and effect, creation of the universe, etc) exist to fill the vacuum of ignorance.

Which is why human behavior and societies are more similar to each other than their religions are. The religions are one step removed from what's really going on.

David Brooks asserts that morality requires believing in ghosts.

gadfly said...

my heart is heavy :( this is 2016.....why are we killing one another over our sexuality when there are so many more important things to worry about...

Yeah, like permitting sick people to use the bathroom of their preferred sexuality regardless of personal plumbing and without ascertaining the real intent for attendance in the chosen bathroom.

Of course, our social mores controls how we spend our law enforcement dollars. Apparently, no police were on site to provide protection for 300 gays at the Orlando night club but remember at the MSP airport, a cop hung out in a filthy rest room to trap and arrest Congressman Larry Craig who was only really guilty of signaling quietly that he was interested in engaging in homosexual activity. One career down the tubes but no lives lost.

buwaya puti said...

Fernandinande,
I am not convinced by such surveys re homosexuality.
I see much more of it than I should, here where it is open, and the survey results should apply, but do not.
Modern Western Civilization is founded on the Christian religion, its ethics, philosophies, customs, psychology, community structure, and on and on, a great deal if which is unexamined assumptions inherited even by declared atheists. You may not know why you believe what you believe, and its most unlikely you derived them consciously from first principles.
Genetically determined human behavior is sub-optimal even for small communities (see Chagnon on the Yanomami, but similar is true for a huge number). What permits complex societies is structures of learned behavior that are very poorly understood.

David said...

Some questions:

1. Why did it take police etc three hours to enter the club. How many died during the hostage holding? What was the cost of this delay?
2. Did nobody have a gun inside? Is there some ethic in the gay community that prevents this? If so, it might be rethought.
3. Why do people find it so hard to mount some defense/counter attack in these situations. (Probably lack of training. A group of military or former military seem to have the ability to fight back sometimes, but it must be very hard to do for an untrained group in such a stressful time,}

Gordon said...

Gadfly, the restrooms at MSP are actually quite clean and well maintained.

Birkel said...

Fernandinande:

Your comment about my comment was irrelevant. As an observer of facts, it is not an insult to observe truth and write it in a comments section. That you are unable to appreciate that matters not at all to me.

"J Farmer" is a pedant and an ass hole. He is not charming or entertaining.

You should own your observations instead of what you attempted, poorly, above.

mockturtle said...

David, those are valid questions. I sometimes fantasize about how I might attempt to disable a mass shooter and would like to think I would at least try. We should all take some kind of training toward that goal. Risky, perhaps, but it could save dozens of lives. And today's event won't be the last, unfortunately.

mockturtle said...

And of bigger concern is the fact that the FBI had this guy on their 'watch list'. What does that mean, exactly??

Fernandinande said...

buwaya puti said...
I am not convinced by such surveys re homosexuality.
I see much more of it than I should, here where it is open, and the survey results should apply, but do not.


Are you in SF?
I see approximately zero nowadays and have never seen anything to make me doubt the 1-3% estimates. There may be migration at work.

Modern Western Civilization is founded on the Christian religion, its ethics, philosophies, customs, psychology, community structure, and on and on, a great deal if which is unexamined assumptions inherited even by declared atheists.

For most of human history we've been hunter-gatherers, maybe with some minor farming. HG societies are more similar to chimp and even wolf and lion societies than they are to modern human societies; the Yanomami are probably a pretty typical HG society, and also similar to pre-Columbian N-American Amerindians, and many or most SA Amerindians. (I'm not sure the Aztecs, etc made up a majority) Other isolated tribes in S-America are like the isolated tribes in New Guinea.

HG's have tons of different religions but end up with basically the same social structure and morality.

Feudal Europe and Feudal Japan had completely different religions, but were more similar than different, and both quite formalized. Beside the hierarchical social structure and organized warlike behavior (and relatively less interpersonal violence than HG's), the Japanese Emperor is "Tenno" = "heavenly sovereign", as in the European "divine right of kings".

You may not know why you believe what you believe, and its most unlikely you derived them consciously from first principles.

Perhaps hard to tell.

Why don't humans eat there own babies? The same reason chimps and wolves don't, or because a religions says not to?
Why do humans have hierarchical social structures? The same reason wolves and lions do, or because a religion says to? Why don't humans regularly kill each other over trivia, but sometimes do kill each other? Why do chimps, wolves and lions also generally not kill each other, but sometimes do? Etc for respecting "authority", the social organization itself, and any number of other things.

Are muslims relatively violent because a religion told them to be, or did violent people choose or invent a religion which sanctions violence?*

Speaking a certain language or stopping at a stop sign are certainly learned. But speaking some language is genetic (all humans do it), and perhaps so is the willingness to obey a sign, and/or the ability to understand the consequences of not doing so (or following any minor social convention). Chimps and wolves don't have a real language and don't obey signs.

Genetically determined human behavior is sub-optimal even for small communities (see Chagnon on the Yanomami, but similar is true for a huge number).

How do you know which behaviors are genetic? Here and here theorize that modern society is partly or largely the result of recent human evolution, complete with data. The second focuses mostly on Europe, inbred/tribal/isolated (mulsims, hill people) vs outbred/expansive/not-isolated societies (traders, travelers). They've expirementally shown that inbreeding in (some) insects changes altruistic behavior. Perhaps the "social insects" (ants, bees) demonstrate that: members of a colony are very closely related to each other, very considerate of each other, and very hostile en masse to outsiders.

What permits complex societies is structures of learned behavior that are very poorly understood.

As for that, I think the incident under discussion is an example of genetics overcoming learned social behavior. The guy was violent. He beat his wife (supposedly).

mockturtle said...

From the CNN timeline:

2:09 a.m. ET: Pulse posts an urgent message on Facebook: "Everyone get out of Pulse and keep running." A tense standoff follows. Police say they had to wait three hours to access the situation, get armored vehicles on the scene and make sure they had enough personnel. [Emphasis mine]

WTF????

Rusty said...

shiloh said...
Rusty, you tell me Trump's solution and I'll agree or disagree ie my original question before your diversionary tactics.

But there's the rub since Trump doesn't have an actual realistic solution for any problem. Just hateful/bigoted rhetoric free of any serious analytical analysis.

You can't wiggle out of this that easy. YOU made a statement. Now defend your position or admit you're just making cheap political jabs. Take responsibility for your own opinions for a change,

Gahrie said...

For most of human history we've been hunter-gatherers

Actually, human history did not exist while we were hunter gatherers. History began after the first cities were built and civilization began. One of the characteristics of the hunter-gatherer tribes you mentioned is their lack of written history and reliance on oral tradition.