January 11, 2013

Student with a shotgun fires up to 20 rounds and is disarmed by the teacher.

How did the teacher do it?
The teacher, Ryan Heber, was struck in the head by a pellet but was not seriously injured and refused treatment, authorities said....

Police said a school supervisor helped Heber distract the assailant. There were no security guards or police immediately on hand to help them: The school's armed police officer was not on duty....

Ryan Heber... said he was fine, but too exhausted to relate his experiences.
Here's a more recent story, saying that the teacher talked to the shooter:
Science teacher Ryan Heber calmly confronted the teenager after he shot and critically wounded a classmate, whom he claimed to authorities had bullied him for more than year at Taft Union High School.

"I don't want to shoot you," the teen gunman told Heber, who convinced the teen gunman to drop his weapon, a high power shotgun.

"This teacher and this counselor stood there face-to-face not knowing if he was going to shoot them," said Kern County Sheriff Donny Youngblood. "They probably expected the worst and hoped for the best, but they gave the students a chance to escape."
IN THE COMMENTS: Lots of questioning of "20 rounds."

90 comments:

Moose said...

Is there such a thing as a "low power shotgun"?

Paul Brinkley said...

If there is, I'm sure Dianne Feinstein would like to ban it.

Seeing Red said...

...Police said a school supervisor helped Heber distract the assailant. There were no security guards or police immediately on hand to help them: The school's armed police officer was not on duty Thursday because he had been delayed by snow, authorities said....

The school already has an armed police officer?

Again, seconds count, minutes away.

Chip S. said...

The school's armed police officer was not on duty Thursday because he had been delayed by snow, authorities said.

Seems to have been the only person "delayed" by snow.

What conspiracy can be spun out of this coincidence?

TomHynes said...

Unless it was a very rare shotgun with a removable magazine, they take a long time to reload. Most shotguns have a plug to limit them to three shells for legal hunting purposes, and only a few hold as many as eight rounds. I would be willing to bet he fired three rounds and had an empty gun when confronted. Your mileage may vary.

sparrow said...

Brave and composed teacher makes all the difference.

Lyle said...

Maybe the kid was only after the one or two guys for the bullying. It's wrong to assume he was after everyone in the school.

This teacher would have been dead in Newtown.

sparrow said...

Never seen a shotgun with a magazine myself- you're doubtless right Tom

Pastafarian said...

You know, if the anti-gun crowd finds out that a shotgun throws out 15 0.33 caliber balls with a single squeeze of the trigger, they'll probably be the next things they'll want to ban.

We must stop this double-ought menace from these assault scatter-guns. Why, in terms of projectiles per second, their rate of fire exceeds full-auto.

By the way, did anyone else hear about the Tennessee school shooter, who was prevented from shooting anyone by an armed administrator? I kind of missed the wall-to-wall full-blare coverage on that story.

sparrow said...

Pasta,
No just like you didn't hear about the San Antonio movie shooter disarmed by an armed off duty cop.

Hagar said...

The neighbor across the streets heard 2 shots.

Sloppy writing by the reporter.

SJ said...

@Moose,

The big variable with shotguns is type of shell fired. The small variable is bore size.

Shotgun shells contain a number of small pellets, ranging in size from #9 shot (0.08 inches) to #1 shot (0.16 inches). Increasing shot-size correlates with decreasing number of pellets.

There is also "buckshot", which ranges from #4-buck (0.24 inches) to #1-buck (0.32 inches). There's also #0-buck, #00-buck, and #000-buck. This last variant has the largest pellet-diameter, at 0.36 inches or 9.1 mm. Again, the decreasing shot-number gives increasing size of pellets, but decreasing number of pellets per shell.

The pellets expand from a tightly-packed group inside the barrel into a roughly-circular pattern at some range.

Bore size is usually expressed in "gauge", measured such that decreasing gauge means increasing bore size. Most common are 12-gauge (~0.73 inches diameter) and 20-gauge (~0.62 inches). Some modern shotguns are 0.410-inches diameter (~68 gauge).

Rifles are generally high-power or lower-power with respect to the shell that they are designed to fire.

Shotguns can switch from lower-power, small-game loads to high-power, man-killing loads by switching from #8 shot to #000-buck.

Brew Master said...

"High powered shotgun"

Seriously, WTF is that?

It is an attempt to make it seem more threatening to the ignorant.

Anyone in the know already knows that 'shotgun' is threatening enough, and doesn't need to be embellished with activist buzzwords.

Synova said...

There isn't a shotgun that has 20 rounds in it, and reloading is slow.

Are they talking about 20 pellets?

wyo sis said...

I was confused by the article as well. Was it 20 rounds or 2 rounds. Two sounds more like it, considering the weapon was a shotgun.

Synova said...

BTW, the news report starts out "illustrating the need for better gun control"...

What if the bullied teen was gay?

al said...

Saiga shotguns are magazine fed. I believe that 20 round magazines area available. There are 3rd party magazines available for certain models of semi-auto and pump shotguns that get capacity up to 20 rounds.

As for reloading a pump shotgun - it can be done very quickly through the ejection port if you spend a little time practicing.

Chris said...

Never seen a shotgun with a magazine myself- you're doubtless right Tom

A tube (below the barrel) magazine is standard for a pump-action, semi-automatic shotgun.

EMD said...

Did the neighbor hear TWO shots or TWENTY shots fired?

The twenty rounds in the report seems misleading to me.

wyo sis said...

The teacher would be in a better position to talk this shooter down than the staff at Sandy Hook Elementary had with that shooter. That shooter was not a student and didn't have any relationship at all with the adults he shot. In this case the shooter may have had enough of a relationship with the teacher to allow the teacher to reason with him.

purplepenquin said...

Like Al said, there is at least one shotgun that can hold 20 shells.

And if that is the weapon used, it wouldn't be unfair to call it "high powered"

Revenant said...

Most shotguns have a plug to limit them to three shells for legal hunting purposes

There may be a requirement like that for hunting -- I don't hunt, so I wouldn't know -- but California has no requirement that shotguns have such a plug. Mine doesn't.

Revenant said...

And if that is the weapon used, it wouldn't be unfair to call it "high powered"

"Unfair", perhaps not.

"Hilariously wrong", yes. I'm reminded of the NYT article that referred to "high-capacity ammunition".

The term "high-powered" refers exclusively to the type of round fired. The size of the magazine is utterly irrelevant. Indeed, high-powered rifles typically have small magazine capacities because (a) they can't be fired rapidly without losing all accuracy from the recoil and (b) the ammunition itself takes up a lot of space per round.

Kirby Olson said...

We had a very odd situation in the town twenty minutes down the road. Little kids were getting death threats on Facebook in the town of Walton. 50% of kids stayed home from Walton Elementary on Monday of this week. But that afternoon the police found the IP code and it turned out to belong to the mother of the two girls most intensively targeted by the death threats. Was this Munchhausen by Proxy? That's one speculation. The woman who did this to her kids called in bomb threats 10 years ago when was herself a student at Walton High School, or so it's been alleged. People just keep getting squirrellier and squirrellier.

Michael said...

Two shots were fired: one hit the target and the second missed another person. The shooter was then disarmed. The 20 shot idea comes from some "witness" thinking there had been 20 shots. The world's shittiest shot would have injured more than one person with 20 rounds of a 12 gauge shotgun. Very sloppy reporting.

Beau said...

How did the teacher do it?

Depends on how many shells that gun held. Any shotgun I've ever used were two shell, side by side, or two shell pump action. After two shots the gun was empty and needed to be reloaded. Would be a matter of wrestling the gun away from the user at that point.

Michael said...

Beau. Pump and automatic shotguns can hold three shells, five with the plug removed.

Portia said...

" Hagar said...

The neighbor across the streets heard 2 shots.

Sloppy writing by the reporter."

Give 'em a break it's the LA Times, not well known for truth. Kissin cousin of the NYT.

hombre said...

"Two rounds," "twenty rounds," it's all the same to the mediaswine at the LA Times. Either way, this was used at a school so it must have been an "assault" shotgun. (It was used in an assault, wasn't it?)

Michael said...

Revenant. Try loading five shells in your shotgun. If you can only get in three you have a plug in the gun. I think that is the case with all US shotguns

Big Mike said...

I suspect we're dealing with a journalist who has no concept of firearms and doesn't understand that a shotgun fires groups of pellets from each shell, the number and size of the pellets varying according to whether it's 00 ("double aught") up to #9.

If the shooter had a double-barreled shotgun then the teacher wasn't taking much of a risk after both barrels were fired. If a pump or semi-auto, then my hat's off to him for his courage.

Oh, and I'm glad they aren't publishing the name of the shooter. Wish they hadn't glorified the loon at Newtown.

Big Mike said...

One can take a look at the body of outlaw Bill Doolin. The 18 holes in him came from one blast of a shotgun. (Warning - gruesome B&W image.)

ironrailsironweights said...

Most shotguns have a plug to limit them to three shells for legal hunting purposes

There may be a requirement like that for hunting -- I don't hunt, so I wouldn't know -- but California has no requirement that shotguns have such a plug. Mine doesn't.

If I'm not mistaken, federal law requires 3-shot plugs for hunting migratory waterfowl.

For maintaining a sustained rate of fire over a period of a couple minutes or longer, a $100 single-barrel (as in single shot) shotgun is hard to beat. With a bit of practice a shooter can get to a rate of less than three seconds between shots. This can be kept up pretty much indefinitely as long as shells are available.

Peter

Beau said...

Pump and automatic shotguns can hold three shells, five with the plug removed.

Good to know. it's been 35 years. If I ever take up shooting skeet again maybe is will improve my score.

Crimso said...

I would guess it depends on the shotgun in question. I assume there are models that might only hold 3 shells (i.e., no plug). Mine has a plug.

As far as 20 rounds being fired, I note that the only hard info to be found at the link says 2 rounds fired. They weaseled on the "conflicting reports" (I'd like to know who said they heard or saw 20 rounds fired; bet such a person is never identified). Probably figured "Let's make it as scary as we can. A trillion shots fired! No, too unbelievable. Twenty. Yeah, twenty!"

And while the teacher was very brave (it was science talking!), I'd sooner be facing him with my shotgun than my rhetoric.

Interesting, though, that it is being described as the teacher "talked him down."

Revenant said...

Revenant. Try loading five shells in your shotgun. If you can only get in three you have a plug in the gun. I think that is the case with all US shotguns

I'm not sure what gives you the idea what shotguns can only hold five rounds, but the Mossberg I own holds either seven or eight (I forget which).

Legally purchsed at a gun store right here in the People's Republic of California.

Sorun said...

"High powered shotgun"

As opposed to the low-powered ones that shoot glitter.

edutcher said...

Good point about the number of rounds fired. The kid was clearly not looking to kill everybody in sight - or he was the world's worst shot.

Hagar said...

We are still talking silly.

However, a "high-powered rifle" is anything more powerful than a .22 LR.

In some definitions, it refers to a rifle firing a cartridge not originally designed for a handgun.

As for continuous firing: In my second eight of basic training, the company commander was a hotrod from Guam who told us that in combat we should rapid fire our M-1s to emulate BARs, and that would scare the enemy away.
On a field exercise, I thought I would try out that theory and fired 3-4 clips while running at the "enemy" in a simulated assault.
Looked down at the rifle and the wooden stock was smoking, so I hurriedly dissambled it and threw it down in a water seep that quenched the smoldering. Spent a couple of hours that evening getting all the muck out of that thing.

Also, I think this might explain why at the firing range, I could shoot all around the target from 400 yards prone without touching the sight adjustment.

Mitch H. said...

Never seen a shotgun with a magazine myself

One of my friends with whom I used to go skeet shooting with had a semi-automatic military-styled shotgun. I think it took an eight or nine shell magazine. Very scary looking, would make a liberal plotz just to see him take it out of its case. It was a piece of crap, loading problems left and right. Shotgun shells just aren't made for magazine-fed repeat fire, the plastic kept binding and causing misloads. I was able to get a better rate of fire with my thirty-year-old Sears & Roebuck pump shotgun.

purplepenquin said...

The term "high-powered" refers exclusively to the type of round fired

Exclusively for the OCD types, sure. Bet you get upset whenever you hear Hank Jr sing about his "shotgun rifle" too, eh? :D

Seriously, I can understand why it bothers ya... technically it is the incorrect wording...but it really ain't wrong to describe a Saiga shotgun as more powerful than a standard one, 'cause it kicks much more ass than my break-action 12gauge.

Ernst Stavro Blofeld said...

the Mossberg I own holds either seven or eight

Mine too.

I got the one with the bayonet lug on it just to piss off Diane Feinstein.

Moose said...

Kel-tec makes a 12 round 12 gauge semi automatic with twin tubes holding the ammunition.

Very much a paramilitary item.

ironrailsironweights said...

Police departments often assigned officers with shotguns to be carried in their patrol cars. In recent years, however, an increasing number of departments are phasing out the shotguns in favor of AR-style .223 rifles. While there are various reasons for the change, the biggest reason is that with the declining physical standards for becoming a police officer, more and more cops are unable to handle a shotgun's recoil.

Peter

Indigo Red said...

The shooter made threats and reportedly had a kill list last year that caused other students to report him to school officials, their parents, and tweet about it. Authorities did nothing.

Sigivald said...

Moose asked: Is there such a thing as a "low power shotgun"?

Yes. The .410 shotgun is pretty low-power, as shotguns go.

You wouldn't want to be shot with one, but they're much lower power - which is why only madmen and people proving a point use them for skeet, and why they're uncommon for hunting anything other than, say, rabbits.

(It is funny to call a 12 gauge "high powered"... it's the most common gauge for a shotgun!)

garage mahal said...

I'm not sure what gives you the idea what shotguns can only hold five rounds, but the Mossberg I own holds either seven or eight (I forget which).

Defense orientated shotguns can come with a longer tube: then it's 7 in the tube and 1 in the chamber. Otherwise it's 5 in the tube and 1 in the chamber. -1 for 3" shells.

Synova said...

"Good point about the number of rounds fired. The kid was clearly not looking to kill everybody in sight - or he was the world's worst shot."

Sounds like he wanted to murder someone in particular, and I'm sure not going to defend that! (My remarks about bullies aside.) But it seems clear that other than happening in school the incident is a completely different sort of event than when someone *intends* to die, is essentially committing suicide, in the most grandiose way possible.

Indigo Red said...

Even with an armed guard on campus, Taft High is an open campus design with multiple entrances ----
Google map

Bruce Hayden said...

Revenant. Try loading five shells in your shotgun. If you can only get in three you have a plug in the gun. I think that is the case with all US shotguns

Could be a local thing. My 12 gage pump wasn't plugged when I got it, and still isn't.

Indigo Red said...

Valtro USA makes the PM5, the only box magazine fed shotgun available legally in California. With the enhanced folding stock option this shotgun combines a rugged look with a high capacity magazine.

Lem said...

My initial reaction to a bully being shot was positive... and the idea that the bully might live further makes me feel like justice was served.

On reflection... I wouldn't recommend kids do that of course.

But... I dont know. Maybe its wrong of me to feel that way.

Revenant said...

Defense orientated shotguns can come with a longer tube: then it's 7 in the tube and 1 in the chamber. Otherwise it's 5 in the tube and 1 in the chamber. -1 for 3" shells.

Makes sense, it is a tactical shotgun. I can't speak for hunting shotguns, as I don't like hunting and thus have no reason to own one. :)

bagoh20 said...

The point is that an adult quickly confronted and ended the thing.

If the teacher was armed he very likely could have done the same in Newtown.

I don't hear anybody who is debating this stuff arguing for the best option going forward: to allow qualified adults in the schools to arm themselves. Not hiring guards, although that is one option for getting there, but to just allow those who want to to do it. This would probably make most schools, while not 100% safe, much much safer from attack.

It seems strange to me that you would insist that the adult, who you make responsible for your children, not be able to protect them. If you gave them $100K to hold for you, I doubt you would object to them being armed to protect it.

Why is no one making the case for this. Requires little to no spending, but is the best way to safe guard the kids due to the assailant not knowing who to avoid, but being reasonably sure he would not succeed.

There is a reason these thing overwhelmingly happen in gun free zones. If your objective is to shoot people, that's clearly where you go.

SJ said...

@purplepenguin,

Bet you get upset whenever you hear Hank Jr sing about his "shotgun rifle" too, eh? :D

I remember the phrase as:

"I've got a rifle, shotgun, 4-wheel drive/A country boy can survive."

I don't know if I'm imagining the comma between "rifle" and "shotgun".

It's a song. I cut him some slack, but I also expect a 'Country Boy' to own at least one shotty and one rifle.

Is it OCD or not, to notice that the ammo is the important part? Last time I was at the range, I shot a Colt AR-4. It was chambered in 0.22LR.

Looked like the stereotypical "high powered rifle", but it wasn't high-powered.

John Cunningham said...

One key consideration is that "journalists" are idiots on anything involving weapons. any factual statement they make is apt to be wrong. Federal law mandates that any shotgun used for waterfowl hunting can only have 3 rounds max in the magazine. hence the plug.
most tactical shotguns, like mine, have an 18" barrel and a 7-round magazine, in 12 gauge. with one in the chamber, the capacity without reloading is 8.













laddy said...

To remove the plug, just unscrew the tube end and remove the plug from inside the magazine spring. It's trivial and people who use their shooter for home defense have to do this all the time. Just remember to reinsert the plug before going hunting or you run afoul of the law. Personally, I would buy a separate tactical shotgun with a shorter barrel for home defense. Hunting shotgun barrels are really too long to quickly maneuver inside the home. Plus you'll likely gain an extra round or two in shell capacity.

laddy said...

To remove the plug, just unscrew the tube end and remove the plug from inside the magazine spring. It's trivial and people who use their shooter for home defense have to do this all the time. Just remember to reinsert the plug before going hunting or you run afoul of the law. Personally, I would buy a separate tactical shotgun with a shorter barrel for home defense. Hunting shotgun barrels are really too long to quickly maneuver inside the home. Plus you'll likely gain an extra round or two in shell capacity.

DADvocate said...

Seems the teacher was held with at least some positive regard by the shooter. As my clinical psychologist father used to say about therapy, first build a relationship with the client. In this case, the teacher had a positive enough relationship with the shooter to talk him down.

purplepenquin said...

One key consideration is that "journalists" are idiots on anything involving weapons.

Not just journalists. A lot of folks on this very thread had no clue about the plug in some shotguns...and they claim to be gun owners.

Synova said...

I actually think it's slightly untoward to think that guns are what's important here, on either side of the issue.

If this young man was being bullied, why did he feel he didn't have alternatives? If he wasn't well, again, why didn't he feel he had alternatives?

I think that some of the things kids get in trouble for, drawing a picture of a gun for example, are outrageous, but if it was known that there were problems, that he justly or unjustly felt abused, why was he still in that situation?

There's no way to know what is really going on inside someone else's head, of course. But I don't see any way to look at this without concluding that through compulsory attendance we've created a situation where we've trapped children and young people into situations where they are helpless.

It's partly why I asked, what if he was being bullied because he was gay? Or even, what if he was being bullied just because?

When I was in 10th grade a neighbor girl picked on me so constantly and teased constantly, that one day in English I started bawling. The teacher's solution to this was to ask if I wanted to move my seat to the other side of the room.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Still bawling, I asked her what good she thought *that* would do.

(My bursting into tears sort of solved the problem because my neighbor wasn't evil, just trying to make her friends laugh.)

The thing of it is... there's no where you can go and kids know it. There's no escape. All of the conflict resolution type things that you can do as an adult are unavailable to you.

If this young man had trouble earlier, if it was real or in his own mind, why was he still there?

Crimso said...

Yes, yes, Synova, that's all well and good. But, you know, crisis/waste, etc. Your attempts to bring clarity to the issue merely remove the connection of the event to the larger crisis. You know very well that can't be allowed to happen. It would be a waste.

jr565 said...

Sparrow wrote:
Brave and composed teacher makes all the difference.


Sometimes. But he could just as easily be talking to someone who didn't want to hear it. And then he'd be dead right now.

jr565 said...

Tom HYnes wrote:
"Unless it was a very rare shotgun with a removable magazine, they take a long time to reload. Most shotguns have a plug to limit them to three shells for legal hunting purposes, and only a few hold as many as eight rounds."

What's to stop him though from carrying pistols as well that he can go to when he runs out of ammo in his shotgun?
Most of these shooters bring multiple guns for their shootings.

jr565 said...

Watched the Piers Morgan Ben Shapiro debate (and Morgan was completley pwned). But at any rate, Shapiro asked him why they didn't suggest we ban pistols?

Remember the Virginia Tech Shooting? THere the shooter only had two pistols and yet he managed to kill thirty two people .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/04/thirtytwo_victims_two_guns.html

jr565 said...

Here's the perpetrator wielding two pistols John Woo style:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ChoSh.jpg

You don't need an assault rifle to kill 32 people.

Michael said...

Synova. When I was in prep school boys would get in fist fights. Not every day but sometimes. And sometimes a bully would pick a fight and be surprised that a smaller kid would fight back and sometimes, surprising, win. There were bullies in those days but they could be ferreted out by bigger kids who liked to fight but didnt like bullies. Fighting of any type has been a no no for decades. The end of fighting was the beginning of shooting. I think that no man who hasnt been hit in the face is trustworthy. He does not believe, really believe, there is evil or that vi olence hurts.

Synova said...

I think it's true, Michael.

At least when you could fight back, you could fight back. I have a friend whose daughter got expelled for putting a football player on the floor when he wouldn't let her reach her locker. (She'd already gotten detention twice for being late to class because of this harassment.)

ALL the possible solutions are taken away. Students can't fight back and they can't leave. If some wimpy kid snaps and takes swings at a bully, even if it means getting beat up, they get in trouble. Complaining to teachers or the administration is social *death* no matter how justified, and then they'll suggest you just go sit in a different seat and you're still there except that now you have to face the abuser who you've made angry.

Very like a battered wife who won't call the cops because she knows it will make the situation worse.

We should absolutely not trap students in with their tormentors... adults always have the option of leaving. And we shouldn't treat the person who defends him or herself the same as their abusers.

Synova said...

And if the guy wasn't bullied but just got it in his head that he was... same thing! Why trap him there?

DADvocate said...

The end of fighting was the beginning of shooting. I think that no man who hasnt been hit in the face is trustworthy. He does not believe, really believe, there is evil or that violence hurts.

I agree. Went to high school in the late 1960s, got in a fight at least once every year except my senior year. You were a coward if you pulled a knife or any kind of weapon. The only guns were in the back of pick up trucks for going rabbit and squirrel after school.

Hagar said...

One thing I have not seen commented on is the way this teacher kept his cool and correctly assessed the situation and so was able to handle it as he did.

I think this guy deserves a big hand from us all.

bagoh20 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

"ALL the possible solutions are taken away. Students can't fight back and they can't leave."

Which is exactly my point about having armed adults in the school. Without them, everyone is without solutions, can't fight back, can't leave. The bully has a gun which means he is now a super bully who even the adults can't stop.

We have lost our collective spines and minds.

EMD said...

You don't need an assault rifle to kill 32 people.

Gun free zones certainly help boost body counts.

EMD said...

Balsa Wood Bones

30yearProf said...

A 30-year old Remington 870 "Duck Gun" with an 8 shot non-detachable magazine actually carries 9 rounds. If he used 00 Buck, he had 81 projectiles of .32 caliber available. That's a lot of holes in someones.

BAN "ASSAULT SHOTGUNS"!

Even if they don't have any "evil" features and do have a varnished and polished walnut stock and fore end.

Then the USA will wind up like England, considering a butcher knife ban. Can't we just remove the ingenuity from the lower classes???

30yearProf said...

Shotgun reloader. 8 rounds in 4 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWyi88YBZ9M

30yearProf said...

In my high school in 1962 every boy (and 1/2 the girls) carried a 4" folding knife as a general purpose tool. Every other car in the parking lot had at least 1 gun in it.

We had bullies, snits, etc. People settled them with fists. No one even thought of using a knife or a gun.

So we were awash in guns but safe. I think it was the culture (i.e., the people). Ya gotta deal with the people, friends.

Paul said...

"The school's armed police officer was not on duty Thursday because he had been delayed by snow, authorities said."

When seconds count, the police are, uh, snowbound.

The teacher did a great job BUT, if that kid had wanted to take out a bunch of 'em, then a 12 gauge would most certainly do the trick (contrary to experts like Biden, a shotgun can do just as well as a 'assault gun'.)

Now you see why Texas will soon arm teachers with CHL permits and extra training.

BTW, you do see if they ban semi-automatic weapons then a shotgun will do quite well and thus the anti-guns will then scream to ban shotguns.

Paul said...

And yes Prof, it is part culture, part letting insane people roam the streets, part breakdown of the family unit.

Back in the '60s I traded guns with the shop teacher in the parkinglot of the school. No one minded at all.

The Drill SGT said...

what i'm not understanding is 'snow' in Kern county. in my memory, that is a 20 year event for a dusting.

David said...

Great job teacher. An adult who took direct and personal responsibility for the safety of the children.

That said, he was lucky. The guy had a gun. The teacher did not.

Why should we expect unarmed teachers to confront armed assailants? Only because we lack the guts as a society to provide proper protection for the children. (I am assuming here that the feckless "guard" was not protection at all. Just as likely he was delayed by a snow cone as snow.)

But we should NOT arm teachers. It's not their job. They will lack the training to be consistently reliable. They also have other duties, like teaching classes, remember? They won't be vigilant because they will be teaching.

Armed guards are the only real protection available. Well trained armed guards, who are members of the police force and show up.

Expensive? Sure it is. But worth it.

As a nation, we seem enamored of fake solutions for real problems.

David said...

30yearProf said...
In my high school in 1962 every boy (and 1/2 the girls) carried a 4" folding knife as a general purpose tool. Every other car in the parking lot had at least 1 gun in it.

We had bullies, snits, etc. People settled them with fists. No one even thought of using a knife or a gun.


Yeah, I remember that. In my neighborhood at least, it was ridiculous. All pose. The knives, some very elegant switchblades, were all for show.

The guns today are not.

Julie said...

Re: A Country Boy Can Survive:

It's pretty clear that he says "a shotgun, a rifle, and a 4-wheel drive." The second 'a' before 'rifle' is distinct, to my ears at least. It is worth noting that he does mention other weapons in the song, including a .45 and Beech-Nut. You're really not much of a country boy without those supplies.

Just don't tell anyone about the Beech-nut, or else Feinstein will want to reclassify that as a weapon of war.

Indigo Red said...

The Drill SGT said...
what i'm not understanding is 'snow' in Kern county. in my memory, that is a 20 year event for a dusting.


The officer was detained by snow. The story does not say where the officer lived. He could very well live south on the 5 freeway in Castaic which was snowed in, or in Palmdale/Lancaster area where a lot of cops live.

Rusty said...

purplepenquin said...
The term "high-powered" refers exclusively to the type of round fired

Exclusively for the OCD types, sure. Bet you get upset whenever you hear Hank Jr sing about his "shotgun rifle" too, eh? :D


Funny. Since here in Illinois we can't use rifles for deer we can used rifled shotguns. The shotgun barrel being rifled. They can be extremely accurate out to 100yds.

Seriously, I can understand why it bothers ya... technically it is the incorrect wording...but it really ain't wrong to describe a Saiga shotgun as more powerful than a standard one, 'cause it kicks much more ass than my break-action 12gauge.

Uses the same kind of shells , right?
It isn't how many rounds you have. It's how well you place how many rounds you have.

purplepenquin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
purplepenquin said...

@Julie: Didn't think of chaw being a weapon until you pointed it out. Great catch...lol

@Rusty: While I knew about using slugs in shotguns, I had no idea there were rifled barrels available. Thanks for sharing that.

dbp said...

Up to 20 would mean any number less than or equal to 20. So, two could be "...up to 20..."

Kirk Parker said...

John Cunningham,

Your first sentence has two extra words at the end.