October 4, 2007

They loved what she said...

... but what did she say? Don't ask. They don't know.
Ann Rivers, 41, came away from [Hillary] Clinton's speech at a banquet held by the National Assn. for the Advancement of Colored People thinking that she and the New York Democrat had identical positions on Iraq: "Pack up all the stuff -- whatever we've got over there -- pack it up and leave," Rivers said in summarizing what she thought was Clinton's stance.

But Clinton's comments were more nuanced. "We must begin to end the war in Iraq and bring our troops home as quickly and responsibly as we can," the New York senator said. Her call to "begin to end the war" left Clinton substantial maneuvering room -- and since then she has refused even to commit to withdrawing all U.S. troops by 2013, the end of the next president's first term.
Nuance! We loved it in '04. And now it's New Nuance — with improved softening. You won't even notice where the finesse begins.

Oh, I'm nostalgic for John Kerry! You could tell when he couldn't fit his nuances together. He had enough shame that he stumbled a bit and let a rough edges show now and then. Those were innocent days...

113 comments:

hdhouse said...

Please calm down Ann. Hillary's position is to end the war. The devil in the details is that step one is go from a forward push footing to a withdrawal footing. two different things.

She is quite right in knowing and stating that it will take time to leave Iraq - years in fact - and that is reality.

No one can assume or expect a "quick fix" to the mess that Bush has created. He has been screwing up there for 4+ years and that is a long time for a country to go with a couple hours of electricty a day let alone a functioning government.

First things first. We have only 14 more months of Bush breaking things. Then we can get at the job of fixing it.

peter hoh said...

All we are asking, is give nuance a chance.

steve simels said...

Hey -- is everybody here as jazzed about the upcoming Islamofascist Awareness Week as I am?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=5ec88545-3022-47f9-8213-38314cca6f09

Seriously -- I for one can't wait to pee my pants in fear and beg Rudy Giuiliani to save me from the scary brown people hiding in my laundry.

Roger said...

"We must begin to end the war in Iraq and bring our troops home as quickly and responsibly as we can...."

IANAHRCF, but sounds like something that even George Bush would sign up for. I don't see that as nuance: it appears to me to a well stated goal that doesn't box US policy in and allows for any number of contingencies.

Hazy Dave said...

So, Hillary's "position" is to end the war, and Bush's "position" is to, presumably, continue the war. Okay, that's clear enough, even if no externally identifiable differences can be discerned without special nuance goggles. Bush is dumb and breaks things, Hillary is smart and fixes things. The path to a glorious future opens before you. Believe the lies you want to hear, after all, it's the ability to communicate that's important, even if contradictory messages are communicated to different special interest groups. After all, how can one commit to any particular course of action when there's no telling what kind of mess one will be left with? Unless one has, perhaps, core values and beliefs, rather than opinion poll-driven positions.

Ann Althouse said...

hdhouse: "Please calm down Ann. Hillary's position is to end the war."

I'm perfectly calm. And everyone's position is to end the war!

Hazy Dave said...

Don't worry, steve, when it's time to pee your pants in fear, sustainable diaper service will be covered under your government health care plan, and there will likely be guidelines to ensure minority contractors have an adequate supply of brown skinned people doing your laundry!

Ralph said...

What do you mean Kerry? This is classic Bill Clinton--you think he's said one thing, but parsing reveals an out, so you just assume the reverse is true, and you're usually right.

AllenS said...

... but what did she say?

"Blah-blah-blah".

And, I am calm.

Hoosier Daddy said...

She is quite right in knowing and stating that it will take time to leave Iraq - years in fact.

Why?

Logistically speaking, can long would it take to start airlifting our children out of there? MoveOn seems to think we can be outta there tomorrow if we all put our votes...heads together.

We have only 14 more months of Bush breaking things. Then we can get at the job of fixing it.

In all seriousness, I do hope that will be the case versus how everything is beyond repair.

I will in all honestly say that if Hillary (or whoever the Dem nominee is) wins, I hope they overwhelmingly take Congress as well that way there will be no whining how Congress is deadlocking her plans. Considering how fragmented the GOP is, this is your election to lose.

Hoosier Daddy said...

I for one can't wait to pee my pants in fear and beg Rudy Giuiliani to save me from the scary brown people hiding in my laundry.

I thought you weren't coming to this blog anymore?

garage mahal said...

Seriously -- I for one can't wait to pee my pants in fear and beg Rudy Giuiliani to save me from the scary brown people hiding in my laundry.

My favorite Rudy flip flop is that 9/11 changed his stance on gun control. Presumably ordinary citizens, well armed, could have stopped 9/11.

But he is a serious guy!

Ralph said...

Presumably ordinary citizens, well armed, could have stopped 9/11.
Well, yes, one man (on our side) with a gun on each plane. Or an end to unarmed passivity (flight 93).

Luckyoldson said...

Ann, YOU'RE the one who used the term;"nuance,"
NOT Clinton, not the woman you quote.

Oh, and as to Hazy Dave's comment: "Bush is dumb and breaks things, Hillary is smart and fixes things."

Yeah, that does pretty much sum it up.

Thanks, Dave.

Luckyoldson said...

Hazy Dave said..."...brown skinned people..."

Geee, Dave...are you talking about Indians? Afghans? Iraqis?

Oh, wait...you must mean Floridians.

AllenS said...

"...scary brown people hiding in my laundry"

Those aren't people, they're turds.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Geee, Dave...are you talking about Indians? Afghans? Iraqis?

Actually Dave was responding to Simels comment in which Simels seems to think all Muslims are brown skinned people. A rather racist remark in and of itself considering a Muslim is a follower of Islam and not an ethnic designation.

But then a pop music critic would not necessarily know the difference.

jane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MadisonMan said...

Well, yes, one man (on our side) with a gun on each plane.

Thank you for clarifying which side the gun-toter would be on. Still, I don't care to be caught in crossfire at 38K feet.

I think any candidate who says they'll do something particular in Iraq if elected is pretty much just appreciating the sound of his or her voice. Politicians are not clairvoyant and they don't know the mess they'll inherit, regardless of their political affiliation. Is nuance just an acknowledgement of uncertainty?

Luckyoldson said...

Hoosier Daddy said..."Actually Dave was responding to Simels comment in which Simels seems to think all Muslims are brown skinned people."

Bullshit.

Unless of course, you think Dave was referring to all of the Muslim..."minority contractors" in America.

Luckyoldson said...

Ralph,
Where would the people with the guns be sitting on the plane?

Everywhere??

Would we be able to screen the owners before they board?

Would any of them have criminal records?

Duh.

jane said...

The Politician (Anna K. 1895):

“I'm a statesman, I'm a shouter,
A spell-binder, and a spouter;
I can talk nine ways for Sunday in a minute.
I can conjure up the voters,
The lunatics and floaters;
When there's any dirty scheming, I am in it.

“I promise them protection,
High wages, and perfection,
And tell them of our lovely "Yankee Nation."
I never heave a sigh,
But live exceeding high,
While they hump themselves to get a half a ration.

“I control the people's money,
And they think it very funny;
I help myself to either more or less;
And, beside this money-raking,
What other bribes I'm taking
I leave you howling Anarchists to guess.”

My addition:

I say we must “Think of the Children!”
To lure in run of the mill men
To my taxes and control as President Queen Bee,
I know better than dumbclucks
How to fix things for really big bucks--
More mediocrity for them and power for me!

I say nothing but spin to dizzying lows:
"End the war soon... whenever, who knows..."
Or, "I’m a good centrist, let's soak the rich!"
I pander in accents, "It takes a village,"
To teach people... and legally pillage
Their liberties, self-responsibilities and bourgeois kitsch.

Bruce Hayden said...

It is nuanced as only a Clinton can do and get away with. I see it as evidence that Hillary is confident enough of the liberal wacko side of support that she can start tacking back towards the center, but not confident enough that she can run there. She is also not stupid, and the news coming out of Iraq right now is better than almost anyone predicted.

It is rather clever nuance. From the right, I read it that she isn't talking cutting and running any more. Not quite to stay and fight to win, but still not cut and run. Yet, I see how those who want to read retreat into it could.

Ruth Anne Adams said...

And now it's New Nuance — with improved softening. You won't even notice where the finesse begins.

[sniff, sniff] I dunno. Smells sort of Febreezy to me. I'll Resolve to get the stains out.

Luckyoldson said...

janie,
To which "politician" are you referring?

Donald Douglas said...

hdhouse: Time to wake up man. The surge is working; the Sunni terrorists are supressed; and the Shiites are realigning to consolidate the regime.

The Dems want a political victory in Washington (a Bush-smackdown), not military victory in Iraq.

Burkean Reflections

Bruce Hayden said...

I may add to my previous post that the nuance seems to be to giver her cover when she does move solidly back towards the center. Instead of being seen (rightfully, IMHO) as a flip-flopper as Kerry was, she will be seen as just too nuanced for her net crazy supporters to understand.

The reality is that no Democrat is likely to win election from the fringes where they have been campaigning. There are just too many in the center who might not like us in Iraq, but figure that we should fix what we broke, and don't want to see us cut and run again, esp. with all the good news right now, which makes it appear now that we can get out with honor.

The difference is that Hillary has plenty of wiggle room right now with this sort of statement to move either direction, as events unfold. Edwards and Obama do not. They are stuck out there in the cut and run fringes, and can't adapt to circumstances, should they break against their position, as they (IMHO) appear to be doing.

titus22 said...

You are not nostalgic for John Kerry. You didn't like him at all and I think you kind of like Hilary.

Also, from reading some of the editorials from prominent necons I sense that they wouldn't mind if she was president. They generally write very respectful things about her which I find interesting.

Bruce Hayden said...

I agree with Donald Douglas about what is happening right now in Iraq, except to point out that it really isn't the "surge" per se, but rather the new approach taken by Gen. Petreaus upon taking charge there, with the surge only working to enable parts of it.

What is really notable in the last month or so is the number of al Qaeda, and in particular, high ranking al Qaeda who have been killed or captured in Iraq. Even the dead ones often come with a lot of intelligence, in the form of hard drives, flash drives, etc. If we aren't yet at the tipping point overall, we may very well have passed it in respect to Sunni Arab terrorists, and in particular, of the imported variety.

titus22 said...

I took a Personal Day off from work to recover from my sex last night.

Bruce Hayden said...

Titus22

I, for one, don't like Hillary! I see her as, by far, the most venal and corrupt candidate running, from either party.

Yet, of all the Democrats running, she is by far the least scary to me. My response to an Obama election would likely not be to flee the country, but rather to buy guns.

It wouldn't be scared like that if Hillary! were elected. I see her as a fighter, deep down, not a lover like Obama, and, yes, her husband (this is not intended as an attack on Obama's morals, but rather a comment that they both seem to prefer be liked than willing to hit back when necessary).

Luckyoldson said...

Donald Douglas said...Time to wake up man. The surge is working; the Sunni terrorists are supressed; and the Shiites are realigning to consolidate the regime."

Don, Last night I had dinner with two Marines who just got back from Iraq and both said that you can't walk ten feet outside of the Green Zone without an extensive military escort...unless of course, you want to die.

They also said they've experienced many of these periods where there is a lull in the violence, but it's always followed by a "surge" of another sort...from the insurgent's side.

The key question is and always will be this: Why are we there in the first place?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Unless of course, you think Dave was referring to all of the Muslim..."minority contractors" in America.

Obviously your liberal bona fides are evident as parody is lost on you.

Last night I had dinner with two Marines who just got back from Iraq and both said that you can't walk ten feet outside of the Green Zone without an extensive military escort...unless of course, you want to die.

Heh. You can say the same thing about Detroit, SC LA or Gary for that matter.

Luckyoldson said...

Hoosier,
Good Lord...are you still hanging on that inane "it's just as dangerous in Detroit" bullshit we hear from your right wing radio and TV talking heads?

And you see what happens when anybody provides an alternative and factual side of the universe to people like you, Hoosier.

An immediate retreat, digging out whatever Republican talking point you can conjure up to refute the reality of the situation.

That's exactly why the Republicans are going to get their asses thrown out of office in 2008.

The continuation of the lies and misdirection we've seen over the past 7 years.

SteveR said...

LOS Ann, YOU'RE the one who used the term;"nuance," NOT Clinton, not the woman you quote

Actually it came from the LAT's article.

Too many jims said...

Hoosier,

Do you really think the security situation in any American city is as bad as in Baghdad outside the green zone?

Luckyoldson said...

stever,
Good work, Stevie!!

I didn't realize that. The segment wasn't in quotations so I thought Ann was commenting.

And believe me, I'm sorry about besmirching your Queen.

Please, accept my deepest apologies.

Luckyoldson said...

Too many jims asks: "Hoosier,
Do you really think the security situation in any American city is as bad as in Baghdad outside the green zone?"

Of course he doesn't.

He just doesn't want to hear anything that's contrary to what the Bush administration says, and the easiest way to counter is to throw out silly comments that have been out there for years on end.

*Then again, you never know what sections of any city Hoosier might have hitched his trailer.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Hoosier,
Good Lord...are you still hanging on that inane "it's just as dangerous in Detroit" bullshit we hear from your right wing radio and TV talking heads?


Actually I listen to a local rock station. Mostly 70s classic stuff.

And you see what happens when anybody provides an alternative and factual side of the universe to people like you, Hoosier.

And what facts are those? An anonymous anecdote of some un-named blogger who supposedly had dinner with two Marines doesn't count as facts in my book. How about checking out first hand journalistic blogs by guys who ARE there like Michael Totten or Mike Yon.

Do those guys count at all or are they in an alternate universe?

That's exactly why the Republicans are going to get their asses thrown out of office in 2008.

And if they do, so be it. We'll see then how quick the war ends. Lets assume Hillary wins and the Dems sweep Congress. How long are you going to give them to bring the children home?

Sloanasaurus said...

Lucky, it sucks to be you...to wake up every morning hoping for more deaths on our side in Iraq...and praying that you don't hear any more news about the next Al Qaeda leader in Iraq meeting his end.

Worse yet, it must suck to have to rationalize away success when it stares you in the face.

Such is the burden of Bush haters like yourself who lost their reason long ago.

Ann Althouse said...

"Nuance" is from the article: "But Clinton's comments were more nuanced."

Luckyoldson said...

Hoosier asks: "And what facts are those?"

Well, I guess you could count the hundreds of articles from reporters and military people who are actually in Iraq.

Or, hey...maybe the "fact" that we've lost 3,800 soldiers or have another 28,000 wounded soldiers or that the Iraqi Parliament hasn't done thing or that we're spending about a billion and a half dollars a week or that no one can say how long we'll be there.

Any of that ring a bell?

Luckyoldson said...

Sloan,
All you ever do is repeat the same bullshit lies we hear every day from your radio and TV wingnuts, Perino and anybody else who's associated with the Bush administration.

You never provide any original thoughts relating to what Americans have seen over the past 7 years, you never acknowledge the fact that almost 70% of America wants us out, that Bush lugs around a 30% approval rating.

It's the same right wing talking points ("hoping for more deaths on our side in Iraq"), over and over again every time you post a comment.

If everything is going so well, why do so many Americans disagree with what you say?

Are you implying that a vast majority of America is unpatriotic?

Hoosier Daddy said...

He just doesn't want to hear anything that's contrary to what the Bush administration says

Not so. I just don't subscribe to the Harry Reid (the war is lost) mantra. As I said, I'd have more respect for your side if you demanded victory versus retreating. Again, when you guys kick all the GOP out, how long are you going to give Hillary to bring them home?


*Then again, you never know what sections of any city Hoosier might have hitched his trailer.

You have something against folks who live in trailers LOS? Rather elitist of you isn't it?

Do you really think the security situation in any American city is as bad as in Baghdad outside the green zone?

Of course not. Like I said, parody is lost on some people. I just question LOS's anecdotal conversation with two people as proof positive of how all is lost.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Well, I guess you could count the hundreds of articles from reporters and military people who are actually in Iraq.

And which reporters and military are those?

Or, hey...maybe the "fact" that we've lost 3,800 soldiers or have another 28,000 wounded soldiers or that the Iraqi Parliament hasn't done thing or that we're spending about a billion and a half dollars a week or that no one can say how long we'll be there.

Casualties are a 'fact' of war. What's your point?

Hell our Congress hasn't done a thing either. Whats your point?

How long will you give Hillary to bring them home?

SteveR said...

I didn't realize that. The segment wasn't in quotations so I thought Ann was commenting.

Its a bit subtle, but the indent serves the same purpose as the quotation marks.

And believe me, I'm sorry about besmirching your Queen.

I married and so I already have one and in my Monarchy there can be only one.

Revenant said...

When did "nuanced" become defined as "having no actual position at all"?

Trooper York said...

Organizing his election]
Penguin: Plenty of girls and bands and slogans and lots of hoopla, but remember, no politics. Issues confuse people.
(Batman TV Show)

Luckyoldson said...

Hoosier,
Again...why the never ending right wing talking points?

"I just don't subscribe to the Harry Reid (the war is lost) mantra."

Reid isn't the only one saying this. Almost 70% of the American public wants us out and don't think we can "win."

"I'd have more respect for your side if you demanded victory versus retreating."

I've never heard anyone on either side of the aisle say we should "retreat." Only that we're trapped in a bad situation and there are plenty of options...one of them being to get out as soon as possible. (Logistics demand an extended period.)

"Again, when you guys kick all the GOP out, how long are you going to give Hillary to bring them home?"

Who knows?? Hillary couldn't take office until 2009 and unless you have a crystal ball, how do you know what the situation will be?
What if Bush invades Iran? What if things turn to shit inside Baghdad?

As for the "trailer" comment, I based it on your inane comment regarding Detroit or L.A. being as dangerous as Iraq. When you say things like that, which is as far from "parody" as one can get, it implies you have experiences in areas that aren't that nice...and trailer parks are generally located in just such locales.

"And which reporters and military are those?"

You're kidding, right?

"Casualties are a 'fact' of war. What's your point?"

Well, the fact that we're losing young Americans for a cause that you evidently can't articulate is a start. Would you really want to lose a son or daughter to hold Iraq together while their citizens decide who they want to run the country?

"Hell our Congress hasn't done a thing either. Whats your point?"

WHICH CONGRESS? The Democrats have had a slim majority for about 6 months, and it isn't really a majority because of Lieberman an the 60 vote mandate to push anything through. It's the REPUBLICAN CONGRESS who held sway for 12 years. Are you implying Republicans are to blame?

"How long will you give Hillary to bring them home?"

Again, refer to my previous post. If she was President tomorrow...I'd give her exactly the amount of time to get our people out, whether that be 3 months or 1 year...logistics governing the process.

Got it?

Good.

SteveR said...

I think we all should know what Hillary means, but somehow it can be interpreted as "Pack up all the stuff -- whatever we've got over there -- pack it up and leave."

Trooper York said...

Ben Jabituya: Ooh. Her pants are blazing for you, Newton Crosby.
Newton Crosby: Will you grow up?
(Short Circuit 1986)
(Clarence Thomss' favorite movie)

AllenS said...

Here's a good one--

"Don, Last night I had dinner with two Marines who just got back from Iraq and both said that you can't walk ten feet outside of the Green Zone without an extensive military escort"

May I ask you who provides the security for the Marines?

Luckyoldson said...

stever,
Explain what G.W. Bush meant when he said; "we're winning" or "mission accomplished" or "we don't torture" or "we never wiretap without court approval" or...and this one is my favorite:

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."

Now that's...NUANCE.

Luckyoldson said...

AllenS said..."May I ask you who provides the security for the Marines?"

From recent reports, it appears Blackwater does much of it...except when they're busy murdering Iraqi civilians.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Reid isn't the only one saying this. Almost 70% of the American public wants us out and don't think we can "win."

Are you sure about that? Do 70% of the American people think we really can’t win?

I've never heard anyone on either side of the aisle say we should "retreat."

Ok so you define pulling out as re-deploying? Perhaps some of the military vets here can define this for us. If you ‘pull out’ during combat operations that’s called a retreat.

Hillary couldn't take office until 2009 and unless you have a crystal ball, how do you know what the situation will be?

What difference does it make? If it’s All Quiet on the Iraqi Front then by all means bring them home. If it’s status quo or worse why would calls for withdrawal it be different than it is now?

What if Bush invades Iran? What if things turn to shit inside Baghdad?

Invade Iran with what? As for Baghdad, isn’t already for shit? I mean didn’t the Marines you had dinner with say that much?

As for the "trailer" comment, I based it on your inane comment regarding Detroit or L.A. being as dangerous as Iraq. When you say things like that, which is as far from "parody" as one can get, it implies you have experiences in areas that aren't that nice...and trailer parks are generally located in just such locales.

Oh I see. Well my experience in Detroit and LA is limited to what I read in the news. Kind of like Iraq.

"And which reporters and military are those?"

You're kidding, right?


Are you referring to AP news listings?

Well, the fact that we're losing young Americans for a cause that you evidently can't articulate is a start. Would you really want to lose a son or daughter to hold Iraq together while their citizens decide who they want to run the country?

Lucky, I would not want to lose my son or daughter period, regardless the cause. If someone asked if I would sacrifice my kid to end the killing in Darfur or Dachau I’d say hell no. Guess I’m just selfish that way. Then again, last time I checked we did have a volunteer army. As for the cause, I wasn’t for it to begin with but now that we’re there its important we win. If it is true that the majority say its unwinnable, then fine. Call it quits and start bringing them home NOW regardless what the situation on the ground is.

"Hell our Congress hasn't done a thing either. Whats your point?"

WHICH CONGRESS?

We only have one.

The Democrats have had a slim majority for about 6 months, and it isn't really a majority because of Lieberman an the 60 vote mandate to push anything through.

Iraq is not the only issue facing Congress. Slim majority or not, what has been accomplished?

Again, refer to my previous post. If she was President tomorrow...I'd give her exactly the amount of time to get our people out, whether that be 3 months or 1 year...logistics governing the process.

So in other words, your expectations are once she assumes the Presidency with an overwhelmingly Democratic Congress, the withdrawals will begin post haste? I’m not saying that the 150,000 there now be home in a month but you do expect withdrawals to begin immediately?

Luckyoldson said...

I realize this is off topic, but who in the hell designed the new Republican logo.

It's an elephant standing as if it's about to mount something, lines on its back that resemble prison stripes...and it's...blue??

Very strange.

Luckyoldson said...

Hoosier,
It's probably more like 55-60%.

So sorry.

Trooper York said...

Lurch: [pops his head out a window as Batman and Robin are climbing the wall outside, interrupting his harpsichord practice] Ohhhhhhhh. It's youuuuuu, Batman.
Batman: Yes, citizen, you may return to your harpsichord.
Robin: We're on official business!
Lurch: Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Batman: It hard to believe that someday he will be he junior senator from Massachusetts
(Batman TV Show)

hdhouse said...

My father grew up in Vermont where there were big rocks and these were broken up and used to make fences, etc.

His father used to take him out with a big iron wedge thing and a heavy hammer. My father surmised that there were two extremes in rock splitting. One was to just put the wedge on the rock and bang the hell out of it until the rock cracked. It made for a lot of dust, waste, and innacuracy but if you just wanted to break up a rock fast it was the way to go.

The other extreme was to put the wedge in the ground, pointed side up and balance the rock where you wanted it to separate right on that edge and wait. It might take a 1000 years but eventually gravity will do its thing and the rock will split. Hmmmm. One way was a lot of effort with a lot of waste and not much to show for it. The other was born of infinite patience with the off chance that the rock would never split.

Somewhere in between wild swinging and gravity is the perfect way to split rocks. That is nuance.

Luckyoldson said...

Hoosier,
Bush also says we'll eventually "pull out" or "retreat."

If it's all "quiet" by the time Hillary takes office, why would we have to do anything?

"Invade Iran with what?" Well, that's a good question, Hoosier.
But it's the neocons who are pushing for an invasion. Watch Fox News and listen to Bill Kristol.

Baghdad is rather large, Hoosier. If we could control a vast majority of the city things would be fine, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

"Well my experience in Detroit and LA is limited to what I read in the news. Kind of like Iraq."

What do you "read in the news?" I've lived in L.A. over the years and, much like all big cities, there are pockets of crime, but overall (there are about 7,000,000 people spread out over 1,000's of square miles), the city is fantastic. Detroit has always been troubled because of high unemployment rates via the auto industry, but it ain't no Iraq.

"Are you referring to AP news listings?"

AP. CNN, Fox, CBS, NBC, BBC, Reuters, PBS, NPR, and others.
(Do you get newspapers or T.V. where you live??)

"Then again, last time I checked we did have a volunteer army. As for the cause, I wasn’t for it to begin with but now that we’re there its important we win."

Send a note to those in the National Guard and ask them if they had any idea they were "volunteering" for multiple tours...after the did their initial service.

Congress: "We only have one."

True, but you and I both know which one you're referring to...and it is' the Republican one.

"Iraq is not the only issue facing Congress. Slim majority or not, what has been accomplished?"

How would you propose getting anything done with the Republicans demanding the 60 vote mandate to move anything along? Unless they negotiate, nothing happens...and you already know that.

"So in other words, your expectations are once she assumes the Presidency with an overwhelmingly Democratic Congress, the withdrawals will begin post haste?"

Again...it depends on what's going in in 2009. Do YOU know?

Luckyoldson said...

Trooper,
"And I will love you and squeeze you and call you George."
Bugs Bunny

Luckyoldson said...

Trooper,
""Trying is the first step towards failure." Homer Simpson

Luckyoldson said...

Trooper,
"You make me happier than I ever thought I could be and if you let me I will spend the rest of my life trying to make you feel the same way."
Sloan to Pogo...late last night.

Luckyoldson said...

Trooper,
"Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals...except the weasel."
Homer Simpson to the Althhouse gang

SteveR said...

Explain what G.W. Bush..

Come on LOS, you can't possibly think I'd fall for that trap.

Trooper York said...

This ones for you lucky:

Sgt. 'Mac' MacChesney: What do you mean "elephants"? This ain't elephants. This is Annie. My Annie!
(Gunga Din 1939)

Luckyoldson said...

Trooper,
I've seen Gunga many, many times...and the primary reason I gave up raising elephants and playing the bugle.

*It was Cary Grant's favorite flick.

Luckyoldson said...

"People are going to hate you, love you, love to hate you, and hate to love you...but the ones that mean the most will always be there."

ME...to each and everyone here.

Luckyoldson said...

Hoosier,
You asked about military and press references:

Here's one for you...

The latest issue of American Conservative magazine, regarding Gen. David Petraeus:

In common parlance, the phrase "political general" is an epithet, the inverse of the warrior or frontline soldier. In any serious war, with big issues at stake, to assign command to a political general is to court disaster--so at least most Americans believe. [...]

David Petraeus is a political general. Yet in presenting his recent assessment of the Iraq War and in describing the "way forward," Petraeus demonstrated that he is a political general of the worst kind -- one who indulges in the politics of accommodation that is Washington's bread and butter but has thereby deferred a far more urgent political imperative, namely, bringing our military policies into harmony with our political purposes.

Luckyoldson said...

Hoosier,
Oh, and I forgot to reference the author:

Bacevich, a Boston University professor and retired Army colonel, is described by Steve Clemons as "one of the most articulate leading thinkers among military-policy dissident conservatives who have exposed the inanity of this war and the damage it has done." In May, his 27-year-old son Andrew J. Bacevich was killed on duty by an IED explosive in Iraq.

Trooper York said...

King Richard the Lionhearted: Before me kneels a nation divided -rise as one man, and that one, for England!
(Ivanhoe 1952)

Hoosier Daddy said...

Bush also says we'll eventually "pull out" or "retreat."

If it's all "quiet" by the time Hillary takes office, why would we have to do anything?


If its all quiet, why stay?

"Invade Iran with what?" Well, that's a good question, Hoosier.
But it's the neocons who are pushing for an invasion. Watch Fox News and listen to Bill Kristol.


I don’t really care what Bill Kristol says but I’d ask him the same question.

Baghdad is rather large, Hoosier. If we could control a vast majority of the city things would be fine, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Well that’s a big ‘if’ isn’t it? If its un-winnable as you claim, how could we control the city? If we could control the city would you support an infusion of another 100,000 troops to do it? If not, then why considering in doing so ‘things would be fine’ as you say.

What do you "read in the news?" I've lived in L.A. over the years and, much like all big cities, there are pockets of crime, but overall (there are about 7,000,000 people spread out over 1,000's of square miles), the city is fantastic.

I agree it’s fantastic. I got laid there twice when I was 17 and I learned how to surf. But I did stay out of South Central.

Send a note to those in the National Guard and ask them if they had any idea they were "volunteering" for multiple tours...after the did their initial service.

Last time I checked, you enlisted for a period of years not a period of tours. Those NGs which were activated after WW2 were in for the duration.

How would you propose getting anything done with the Republicans demanding the 60 vote mandate to move anything along? Unless they negotiate, nothing happens...and you already know that.

Seems to me then House Leader Pelosi and Reid’s leadership skills are lacking. They can’t get one GOPer to negotiate?

Again...it depends on what's going in in 2009. Do YOU know?

Sorry, ain’t going to let that one go. What difference does it make what the situation is in 2009? If Iraq stabilizes, then we can leave. Bush has said that much. If it worsens all the more reason based upon the Democrats mantra to pull out. They’re demanding timetables now so what difference does it make? All I hear is how its un-winnable and we’re in the middle of a civil war etc. Bush has repeatedly said troop withdrawals are contingent upon the situation on the ground and you have condemned him for it. Yet, put Hillary and a major democrat majority in Congress and you’re going to qualify withdrawal with ‘it depends on what's going in in 2009’. Even you can see the hypocrisy in that statement.

Luckyoldson said...

"I fart in your general direction!"
Monty Python, The Holy Grail

Blake said...

Trooper,

Batman: It hard to believe that someday he will be he junior senator from Massachusetts

Awesome.

Luckyoldson said...

Blake,
You left off...Dude.

Trooper York said...

Bruce Wayne: I'm just reminded I'd promised to take my young ward, Dick Grayson, fishing.
(Batman TV Show)

hdhouse said...

Trooper - I'm going to lock up your DVD collection. I assume you frequent this site:

http://www.simplyscripts.com/

I'm otherwise dismayed. I write a very nice, on point, rememberance of my father and nuance and get nada from anyone about it....and no one caught my little slight of hand with "a rock" and Mr. Bush.

damn.

Luckyoldson said...

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spend its whole life thinking its stupid."

Einstein

Luckyoldson said...

Democrats say -- "Give a man a fish."
Republicans say -- "Teach a man to fish."
Libertarians say -- "Go fish!"

Auren Hoffman

Luckyoldson said...

"I never drink water because of the disgusting things that fish do in it." W.C. Fields

Trooper York said...

hdhouse, I was working it. I searched out "I was a prisoner on a Chain Gang", "Cool Hand Luke", "Oz", and the "Shawshank Redemption" to find a rock breaking quote. But I came up short. I'll get you though, just give me a chance.

Trooper York said...

First try rocks and fish:

Ben Gardner: When we get them silly bastards down in that rock pile, it'll be some fun, they'll wish their fathers had never met their mothers. When they start takin' their bottoms out and slamming into them rocks, boy! Get away from there, ya goddamn fool, you! What's the matter with you? You wanna swamp us, ya crazy son of a bitch?
(Jaws 1975)

Hazy Dave said...

I was quoting ss, albeit inaccurately, since I see steve didn't use the word "skinned". Perhaps he has scary UPS deliverymen hiding in his laundry.

Revenant said...

I love this silly Democratic talking point that they can't do anything because of their "slim majority".

They just approved more funding for the Iraq war. So apparently they not only lack the votes to say "yes, pull our troops out" -- they also lack the votes to say "no, we're not going to let you keep fighting this war".

hdhouse said...

revenant...oh please. its thursday afternoon, the fog is in, martini in hand..don't ruin it by being stupid.

the dear "what is the matter with up or down votes" talk or threaten to talk everything to a standstill in the senate...so its 60 votes just to get to business, and unlike the buffalo herd GOP, democrats have a conscience and think independently and just don't blindly follow marching orders ---- although watching your party march off into the sea is pretty good fun i have to tell you.

Trooper York said...

Papillon is contemplating a daring leap from a cliff to escape]
Dega: [the plan] It seems so desperate. You think it will work?
Papillon: Does it matter?
(Papillon 1973)

Trooper York said...

Melvin (Mel) Cooley: Rob, as the producer of this show, once more I must insist that you instruct your staff to show me a little respect.
Maurice (Buddy) Sorrell: We're showing you as little respect as possible.
(Dick Van Dyke Show 1961)
(That one's for you hdhouse, enjoy the martini)

Hazy Dave said...

democrats ...think independently and just don't blindly follow marching orders...

I think that's the martini talking.

knoxwhirled said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Luckyoldson said...

Revenant said..."I love this silly Democratic talking point that they can't do anything because of their "slim majority"."

Geee, let's see if I can make this more understandable to you:

When you only have a one vote majority, and one of your suppposed allies (Lieberman) votes the other way, combined with the Republicans having the ability to demand at least a 60 vote count to pass a bill, etc...well, that creates a problem as far as getting things done.

It's commonly referred to as "obstruction" and will continue until 2008 when one of the parties garner enough seats to run the country effectively.

Is that clear enough for you?

Luckyoldson said...

"That's what being a man is like: making mistakes and not caring."
Al Bundy

Trooper York said...

Lucky, that the way I like it. On the money.

reader_iam said...

Coincidentally, earlier this afternoon I was re-reading Guiliani's and Edwards' pieces in the September/October issue of Foreign Affairs.

Here's a short excerpt from Edwards' article, in connection to Iraq:

... For over a year, I have argued for an immediate withdrawal of 40,000 to 50,000 U.S. combat troops from Iraq, followed by an orderly and complete withdrawal of all combat troops. Once we are out of Iraq, the United States must retain sufficient forces in the region to prevent genocide, a regional spillover of the civil war, or the establishment of an al Qaeda safe haven. We will most likely need to retain quick-reaction forces in Kuwait and a significant naval presence in the Persian Gulf. We will also need some security capabilities in Baghdad, inside the Green Zone, to protect the U.S. embassy and U.S. personnel. ..."

Methinks Edwards is leaving more wiggle room than is generally credited.

reader_iam said...

Also, interestingly enough, both Giuliani and Edwards propose new organizations (perhaps not the best word choice) for dealing with weak and failing states. Edwards proposes to call his the "Marshall Corps, patterned after the military reserves [and consisting of] at least 10,000 civilian experts." Giuliani says: "A hybrid military-civilian organization--a Stabilization and Reconstruction Corps staffed by specially trained military and civilian reservists--must be developed."

Trooper York said...

(first lines)
Newsreel announcer: Young people from all over the globe are joining up to fight for the future.
Soldier #1: I'm doing my part.
Soldier #2: I'm doing my part.
Soldier #3: I'm doing my part.
Young kid dressed up as a soldier: I'm doing my part too.
[Soldiers laugh]
Newsreel announcer: They're doing their part. Are you? Join the Mobile Infantry and save the world. Service guarantees citizenship
(Starship Troopers 1997)

Luckyoldson said...

"My job is a decision-making job. And as a result, I make a lot of decisions."
G.W. Bush, yesterday.

Luckyoldson said...

Trooper York said..."Lucky, that the way I like it. On the money."

Thanks!!

*You ARE referring to my response to Rev...right?

Trooper York said...

Gotta go, Yankee game starting but:

Manuwalde: [to his minions] You disgust me! Goodnight!
(Scream Balcula Scream 1973)

Revenant said...

democrats have a conscience and think independently and just don't blindly follow marching orders

So voting against funding for the war would be a sign of "blindly following marching orders" and not "having a conscience"?

That's very interesting... in light of the fact that most Democrats voted against funding for the war.

Sloanasaurus said...

Lucky, I saw a poll tonight that said 1 out of 5 democrats wants us to lose in Iraq.

It's no doubt you are one of them.

hdhouse said...

msloanasaurs you are so full of shit your eyes are brown. what poll? where? name your source you toady.

Revenant said...

what poll? where?

He's presumably talking about this poll, in which 19% of Democrats surveyed expressed the belief that the world will be better of if America loses the war.

[Insert mandatory "Faux News" remark here]

I'm still looking forward to your explanation about why the "conscience" of the Democrats (and their refusal to "blindly follow orders") is preventing them from refusing to pass additional funding for the war.

All it takes is 41 Democratic Senators, HD. With no funding there will be no choice but to withdraw from Iraq. 41 Democratic Senators could end the war any time they wanted. Why don't they?

Obviously it must somehow be the fault of the evil Rethuglicans -- everything in the world is, after all -- but if you could just explain *how* it is their fault I'd appreciate it.

Sloanasaurus said...

I am surprised the poll was only 19%. It makes me feel a little better that at least only 19% of the opposition party would be willing to commit national suicide. It could be a lot worse. Maybe its proof that we still have a considerable number of years left as a free people.

mtrobertsattorney said...

LOS: "Last night I had dinner with two marines..."

Last time I heard that story it was two marines, six navy SEALS, 10 Rangers and eight guys from Delta Force.

Blake said...

Maj. Scott McCoy: [after taking out a terrorist] Sleep tight, sucker.

[Chuck Norris, "The Delta Force"]

reader_iam said...

Bacevich, a Boston University professor and retired Army colonel, is described by Steve Clemons as "one of the most articulate leading thinkers among military-policy dissident conservatives who have exposed the inanity of this war and the damage it has done." In May, his 27-year-old son Andrew J. Bacevich was killed on duty by an IED explosive in Iraq.

That is fascinating, LOS. I'm not sure how to put this in way that won't be read into inappropriately (in the sense of misleading assumptions that might be drawn), but what leads you to specifically cite Steve Clemons and his authority with regard to Bacevich, or more generally?

I'm asking more in terms of your choice of reference for Andy Bacevich, and the why behind that, than your citation of Bacevich himself.

reader_iam said...

In some key ways, given all the comments I've read of yours over time, and the general POV--which I freely admit I might perhaps have taken too much at face value, but will revisit, if so--I'm a bit taken aback, on substantive grounds, by that comment of yours, coming from you, as presented.

Was it just a Google, or more than that?

Revenant said...

Sloan, let's not get overwrought here. 5% of Republicans thought the same thing, after all.

If you buy into the notion that America's presence in Iraq is helping Al Qaeda and increasing terrorism worldwide, then believing that American defeat in Iraq would be good for the world makes a certain kind of sense. Of course, first you have to be stupid enough to believe that we're helping Al Qaeda by killing them in bulk lots -- but many anti-war folks are indeed that stupid.

hdhouse said...

I simply cannot believe that you fell for that POLL. Are you kidding me? back up the url. you get a 404 message when you back to projects.

then you download a pdf that starts on question 40? skips numbers? hello?

that if you search the FAUX NOISE site for "projects" or "prayer" or "poll", you come up with nada.

it is refreshing to note that at 630 in the morning a certain group of republican ninnys would buy the brooklyn bridge. You assholes are so stupid it makes the mind go blank...

Hoosier Daddy said...

You assholes are so stupid it makes the mind go blank...

I love how self-described liberals show thier tolerance and respect for other POVs

wait....

hdhouse said...

Hoosier Daddy,....

if you could read (one of your skills about which I am growing increasingly suspect)...you would note that I posted about the FAUX NOISE "poll" that

1. the url didn't "back out"
2. the file was a "pdf" that
a. didn't have the first 39
questions...hmmmm and
b. didn't contain the
identifier questions that
would have led to the
conclusions cited.

mostly i am suspect of a "poll" in pdf format that downloads from a website that contains no other polls and 4/5ths of the poll is missing.

Other than that, peck away all you want farm boy.

Defenseman Emeritus said...

FAUX NOISE!!1!!!1!one!!

It was hilarious the first time I read it back in 1999, and it just never gets old. Such a delicious play on words! And it's so TRUE!

XWL said...

Does any of this matter if Sen. Clinton isn't electable in the general election? I have serious doubts on her electability (not that Sen. Obama or Sen. Edwards would be better).

I've figured out a way to make sure Sen. Clinton wins the general election, though, she just needs to get Rockstar Games and Microsoft to agree to the plan (she could offer to not promote any anti-violent video game legislation in exchange).