In 2009 he wrote about the need to set up a counter to what he described as "the violent Norwegian Marxist organisations" that he believed terrorised the "politically conservative"....Things Breivik blogged:
The vast majority of new faces in the Progress party are now politically correct career politicians and not in any way idealists who are willing to take risks and work for idealistic goals....So, here is one man, apparently acting alone but believing perhaps that his action is the equivalent of 100,000. What he did was emphatically not an "idea" — as Mill had it. I'm speculating that he imagined his action embodied an idea: That others like him could act on their own to great effect, for his cause. Why amass armies or even terrorist groups, when individuals, understanding the idea, can take up their arms and set out on the day they feel called and take down 100 (or more) selected individuals who represent these "new faces in the Progress party" (or whomever the enemy is supposed to be)?
In Norway and Sweden extreme Marxist attitudes have become acceptable/everyday while the old-established truths of patriotism and cultural conservatism today are branded as extremism....
I have on some occasions discussed with… the [English Defence League] and recommended them to use conscious strategies. The tactics of the EDL is to 'entice' an overreaction from jihad youth/extreme Marxists, something they have succeeded [in] several times already.
This is a powerful idea. Will we not hear it again and again, as Breivik receives endless publicity and his politics and motivations are plumbed and analyzed? It is a viral idea, and the media are catching the virus right now. As we talk about Breivik, we need to think clearly about what we are doing and whether we are promoting his cause.
By the way, the John Stuart Mill quote, unparaphrased, is: "One person with a belief is a social power equal to ninety-nine who have only interests." It's from "Representative Government," which you can read in its entirety here. Here's the quote in context:
To think that because those who wield the power in society wield in the end that of government, therefore it is of no use to attempt to influence the constitution of the government by acting on opinion, is to forget that opinion is itself one of the greatest active social forces. One person with a belief is a social power equal to ninety-nine who have only interests. They who can succeed in creating a general persuasion that a certain form of government, or social fact of any kind, deserves to be preferred, have made nearly the most important step which can possibly be taken towards ranging the powers of society on its side. On the day when the proto-martyr was stoned to death at Jerusalem, while he who was to be the Apostle of the Gentiles stood by "consenting unto his death," would any one have supposed that the party of that stoned man were then and there the strongest power in society?The Biblical reference is to the martyrdom of St. Stephen, and the Apostle of the Gentiles is Paul, then Saul, consenting to the stoning.
Posts
131 comments:
My favorite Mill quote: "If mankind minus one were of one opinion, then mankind is no more justified in silencing the one than the one - if he had the power - would be justified in silencing mankind."
WV: jeridis
Spin. Not the truth.
Keep in mind that Oslo thought it had a "free ticket." It supported Arafat. And, gave him a Nobel Prize.
Norway has its attitudes.
What it forgot to consider, as it sat there as a soft target, is that they could grow up home their own lunatic. There's nothing "foreign" about this dude. Not the books he read. Not his philosophies. Nada. There's no Fundamentalism there. Or Christianity.
Just the last remnants of their "free ticket."
To say nothing of their helpless response! It seems some sort of hysterical call went out to the "mainland," from the Utoya Island. And, then it took the cops 90 minutes to figure out how to get there. And, respond.
Norway is trying very hard to blame this on the outside world.
And, the guy with the microphone wants to pin laurels on the breasts of the "first responders." But all they have are Nobels. And, plenty of grief.
It's a small country! Small enough that inside it lots of people must be feel some amount of guilt.
When that goes away ... you're not an easy target, anymore.
One blond man doesn't change the equation, here! Oslo is home to terrorists! Terrorists who've been rewarded with Nobel Prizes!
They've had a rather bad habit of blaming the outside world. And, honoring terrorists! You expect to see changes?
When the truth finally comes out, changes will be on their way.
"What has emerged so far paints a disturbing picture: a Christian fundamentalist with a deep hatred of multiculturalism, of the left and of Muslims, who had written disparagingly of prominent Norwegian politicians."
The God of the Bible satisfied people alive 4000 years ago. The reasons for stones is that the rifle hadn't been invented yet.
We don't stone people! And, it's a sad twisting of small groups of people who reach for this one book by which they're told to make judgments.
While most of the priests, throughout time, were trouble people. Who didn't practice what they told their flocks to practice.
Seems there are great distortions that beset those who have led.
And, that's why there is "spin."
The God of the Bible is no longer taking questions.
Thank goodness for lots of opinions, ET1942. Norway grew its own lunatic! This one is one they own! And, one apparently, that trained using a sophisticated rifle.
That he used 9 tons of fertilizer on his vegetables? NO!
That he was able to function FULLY within his society? YES. YOU BET.
Let Norway spin all it wants. The truth eventually will catch up. People will realize this dude was not spending any time on a street corner; carrying banners, looking for converts.
Keep in mind SPIN works when the LEFT is telling you a story.
Let the Norwegians solve this problem. Like Mumbai, they have one.
There's no logic to how a terrorist picks a target! They're COWARDS. They want to harm others and get away with it.
SPIN should be one of the softest targets going. Well? At least we have the Internet.
I can't understand how this guy keeps described as a "Christian fundamentalist". The Norwegian police made a statement that is what he is, but his own writings seem to suggest a Norwegian nationalist/white Eurocentrist.
Where are his invocations of God and Jesus?
Yeah most of the commenters on here cannot fathom the concept that terrorism can come from the right. It took till the second commenter before we were informed that the REAL culprit here is...wait for it...Arafat.
It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
If this guy was a Muslim, and in American, Barack Obama would be blaming it on "poverty and ignorance, helplessness and despair", Holder would be doing backflips to avoid making a connection to radical Islam, and others on the left would be opining that "we may never know why it happened."
But it's not.
wv: shmouth How Obama says shut your mouth when he chooses to use a Negro dialect.
As we talk about Breivik, we need to think clearly about what we are doing and whether we are promoting his cause.
The media will think clearly about whether they can gather eyeballs to sell to advertisers and nothing else.
Indistinguishable newsbabes will think about airtime and possible career path stardom.
There's the root of the American sellout.
I'm impressed that a mere drive-by commenter could have his finger so firmly on the pulse of the regulars as to recognize how Carol Herman speaks for all of us.
Anders Breivik is just a combination Timothy McVeigh and Jared Loughner, a lonely guy with voices in his head that tells him to do crazy things.
There is nothing very deep here, and no, Sarah Palin had nothing to do with it.
They want to harm others and get away with it.
They want media fame. Others are a means.
Pick children because you get better coverage. The media love dying children.
Reflecting their audience's tastes.
The fact that a madman espouses a sound idea doesn't make the idea mad. Cultural conservatism is in fact a sound idea. Statism will have to run its course, which is to say destroy everything, before cultural conservatism can once more emerge as the only foundation on which to build a sound society.
His motivation for targeting the Labor Party appears to be they are the ones destroying Norway's future by pushing the mass importation of Muslims hard and trying to impose MultiKulti.
In a distressed society under foreign invasion, historically, the people do not attack the foreign invaders but prefer to target the native-born facilitators and collaborators.
Norway, of course, is home to Vidkun Quisling. He was shot after the war.
In contemporary usage, Quisling is synonymous with traitor, and particularly applied to politicians who appear to favour the interests of other nations or cultures over their own.
Not saying at all that the shooter was even remotely justified - but we should all get away from the trite dismissal of all acts of political violence as "insane & done without rhyme or reason". It may make us feel better, but much violence does have a reason behind it and many times..it succeeds in revolution, civil war and gives us names like Jomo Kenyatta, Lenin, Thomas Jefferson to remember.
The danger is the blurring of fame and infamy. The J.S. Mill quote could be used to underwrite the actions of anyone who intends to make their mark on society either constructively or destructively. It is more compelling than ever to link Oklahoma City with 9-11 with Madrid with Oslo and consider that if the desire to accelerate history is common to revolutionaries of all stripes. The Weathermen also come to mind. Red Army Faction. The Muslim Brotherhood. They have always been with us, those for whom the time for talking is over. (Damn. Now Al Gore has leapt to mind. This idea is like a bloody wound that refuses to clot.)
Discerning and disconnecting the connections between the moral and immoral use of revolution seems to be the object of the threat that Ms. Althouse has highlighted in this blogpost. "...when individuals, understanding the idea, can take up their arms and set out ..." Especially now when technology and modernity can buy us much more for our leverage than ever before. The question seems to be: do we have the capacity to bridle revolution solely for constructive use and temper its increasingly destructive potential?
"I'm impressed that a mere drive-by commenter could have his finger so firmly on the pulse of the regulars as to recognize how Carol Herman speaks for all of us."
We've seen Arafat and now the media receive criticism in this thread. I can't wait until we get an explanation of how this tragedy should lead Norway to re-examine its tax/immigration policy.
Terrorism came to Oslo. Now, that's a fact!
Norwegians basically can talk to each other in Norwegian. Which is what the prime minister did, when he went into a TV studio to record his message.
But we hear the Christian/Fundamentalist BULLSHIT in ENGLISH! How so? Because it is designed to be so!
HOME GROWN LUNATIC!
Walked the streets of Oslo, and beyond. He knew this territory well. He spoke to others. His ideas were known by others.
And, IN ENGLISH we are getting painted words!
Yes! Oslo honored Arafat! You just can't fool me on that one!
And, I remember LILLIHAMMER. Where the Palestinians, getting full cooperation from Norway's government, went after the Mossad. Not an easy group to fool. And, yet? FOOL THEM, THEY DID!
Since all we are getting (in English), is SPIN. I wonder what's being hidden behind the screen?
I don't think this guy went to church. I don't think he belonged to any religious affiliation. Let alone one so foreign you'd have to travel to the American South to find a place where you might possibly be converted IN.
HOME GROWN LUNATIC.
Norway supplied the dirt. And, the fertilizer. The money? Sorry. Spin away, there. But you don't come up with enough money "buying and selling vegetables" ... to afford what got set off!
How many broken windows do you have to see to know there's purposeful SPIN being served up?
Anyhoo ... from what I've seen ... I don't think a "FUND-E-MENTAL CHRISTIAN" is involved here.
I do however suspect SPIN DOCTORS.
Spin doctors that have come along after the fact. Where terrorist money bought a huge bang for their buck.
Since this trajedy happened, I've tried to find out all that I could about Norway, and have come to the conclusion that the place is fucked up.
Yep. Red Army. Muslim Brotherhood. Al Gore.
We have to be able to use this piece of news to trash Nancy Pelosi somehow. Come on, people.
The apple didn't fall far from the tree, apparently:
"Even the aspiring pie-thrower himself was unable to articulate a convincing case for what he did, either at the time or in a long-winded editorial after the fact. So I agree with Frank: in addition to being violent and degenerate, pie-throwing simply isn't the incisively satirical act the pie-throwers seem to think it is. In fact, it's the opposite of what it's trying to be."
I can see why the leftist militants are focused on the religious aspect of this horrible massacre.
Because, simply put, one has nothing to do with the other.
"Ban Christianity" is the war cry from the left.
But, what I don't understand is why the mosted educated and sophisticated among...the wise ones...are ignoring what seems to be the obvious catalyst:
Forced Multi-culturalism.
When you tell an indiginous people that their culture is flawed, and the only solution is to replace their culture with the culture of others, you're going to get push back.
Make no mistake, I an not offering any justification for this massacre.
(The fact I even have to make that statement is quite bothersome)
But, I ask again- Why is the debate over an issue that doesn't exist, and ignore the issue that does?
If this guy had heard of McVeigh (and he almost certainly had), he must have known McVeigh failed magnificently.
A false flag op without the flag won't go very far.
fdf5c032-b5fe-11e0-b34c-000bcdca4d7a said...
Yeah most of the commenters on here cannot fathom the concept that terrorism can come from the right.
But the overwhelming majority of it still comes from the Left.
"If Norwegians can speak to each other in Norwegian why can't Austrians speak to each other in Austrian, huh?"
--Barack "He Duh Man" Obama
To Hagar and others,
I don't think this guy is anything like Jared Loughner. This guy isn't literally crazy like Loughner. He's actually well educated and his views aren't even that extreme. His actions were extreme, but his political views really aren't.
He is even pro-gay, which seems to undermine the argument that he's a "Christian fundamentalist".
<<"Ban Christianity" is the war cry from the left.>>
Yes. I have heard nothing else. From the rooftops, street corners, and in the mouths of every liberal politician and pundit in America and throughout the world. You should see the lynchmob in my neighborhood that was trying to prevent people from going to church!
<>
Duh! If liberal societies and politicians wouldn't be so...you know...liberal, conservatives wouldn't have to resort to such tactics.
So, there are amongst us people who kill other people. They even kill "innocent" people. Did any killer ever knowingly and willfully kill another person whom he (usually a male) believed to be well and truly innocent? The abortionist, you say, kills innocent babies. Fetuses (babies) removed (killed) by abortionists are not sentient, or, if they are sentient, are guilty of disrupting the lives of their mothers.
Here is a question: where do the lives lost in this crime compare with the "innocents" killed by drones launched by Democrats and Republican politicians in the US?
If we are all guilty, no one is guilty. If all muslims or christians or jews or hindus or athiests are guilty then none of them are.
Hold the person accountable for his actions. Do not hold all who might share some small part of his political beliefs accountable for his actions.
While we are at it. Is there any accountability for a police force that takes 90 minutes to respond to a mass murder?
Like Timothy McVeigh he is sane enough to plan and execute this caper, but crazy enough to go shoot up a bunch of children.
"As we talk about Breivik, we need to think clearly about what we are doing and whether we are promoting his cause."
By publicizing it, you (media) are both promoting it and rejecting it.
This man could not be rational since the early reaction I've heard coming out of Norway is that there will be "more freedom." More than ever.
How could it be otherwise? Did he expect officials to rub their chins and say, you know, we really ought to reconsider immigration policy. Even if they wanted to, they can't. Not now.
<>
Yes, I get so sick of the politically correct Islamic extremists. Trying to shove a PC agenda down our throats. Except that the "cultural conservatism" already defended in this thread has many of the exact criticisms of America that Islamic extremists do.
But...liberals are bad. And Islamic extremists are bad. That MUST mean that Islamic extremists are...liberal!
Many, including myself, have long feared this kind of thing happening on a large scale. European nationalism (among other things) led to the murder of millions over the course of the last 100 years. We saw an entire people nearly wiped out because they were the "other" and we could see it again.
What happens as hard-core European Nationalists feel more and more isolated? Will we see more of this? Sure, this one guy is a nut and he should be hanged in the public square but will that deter the next guy(s) who feel the same way? Europe is a tinderbox.
Duh! If liberal societies and politicians wouldn't be so...you know...liberal, conservatives wouldn't have to resort to such tactics.
Thanks for making my point-
Always stupid, 3rd grade mocking from libs.
Yes, my brush is broad...
<>
So what should the next "let me show the world how much of a victim I am" event be? What liberal people or agencies have it coming the most?
Let's not pretend Breivik didn't have a perfectly good reason to go on his murderous rampage!
For Norway, from the right, the word is QUISLING.
Their right is the nazi way. And, there aren't enough of them to raise enough money to have carried this off!
UNEXPECTED?
Yes. You bet.
But spinning like crazy. I'd bet more time was spent figuring out how to spin this thing ... than in sending off the police to Utoya Island.
How come?
How did this character walk around for 32 years ... where he attracted no attention. But "sold vegetables." And, practiced shooting more than one type of gun off?
Why isn't there any improvement on what's been said about this guy? Is he still alive? Is he in solitary?
Where did he get shot? After he got shot ... if this part of the story is correct ... wouldn't it have been necessary to remove the bullet?
Have friends of his been interviewed? Girlfriend? Boyfriend? Mother? Did he live inside his computer? And, had no other life?
How did he hear about Utoya Island's "camp away for Labor teenagers?
How did this date get picked?
What did it cost?
Guns and bullets aren't free.
Why is the news being stage managed?
Purposely targetting the children is a genocidal act. It is Beslan level evil.
Trying to score political points off of depraved evil is despicable.
If a bomb were to be detonated in front of a building representing the ruling party of a nation such as Syria, Iran, or North Korea, we would mourn the loss of any innocents, but might view the act as representative of a people demanding liberty and rights.
But no nation, no matter what the issue, deserves to have its children marked for slaughter.
What kind of men, counselors presumably, do nothing but hide while 90 people are killed over the course of an hour and a half? What kind of society has sprung up that has such sheeplike citizens?
"Their right is the nazi way. And, there aren't enough of them to raise enough money to have carried this off!”
Yes. Liberals are protesting liberal immigration policy by killing liberals. It indicates how craven they are!
'Blogger Michael said...
What kind of men, counselors presumably, do nothing but hide while 90 people are killed over the course of an hour and a half? What kind of society has sprung up that has such sheeplike citizens?'
That's the chilling thought that is running through my head. A nation of sheep. A nation without any transcendent ideal worth dying for.
SPIN is like touching the button on your alarm clock. Shutting off the noise so you can grab another ten minutes of sleep.
Oh, and here's the Norwegian "expression" that made this possible:
“amerikanske tilstander” — American conditions ...
This is why Oslo is getting the full buff treatment ... that a home grown LUNATIC ... is besotted with an America of the Imagination!
You know ... the more that it is claimed this is just one LUNATIC ... the more I question ... WHERE DID THE MONEY COME FROM?
Growing vegetables?
Living so frugally ... he was able to save up for his "big day?"
Was a QUISLING not a QUISLING?
To think you can blow out the windows on a 20-story building. Start a fire on top. And, get ye' ... with your magic cape ... onto a ferry ... that ferried kids ... And, you're carrying a gun ...
AND, NOBODY ASKS YOU ONE FUCKING THING?
Man, if SPIN were a ride ... you'be be going in circles for 24 hours a day.
If one would but take the time to read his recently discovered Manifesto (the Wash Times has the best summation of key excerpts from its 1000+ pages) one finds, imo, that his thoughts are both logical and consistent with all others who decrie the inroads of Islam in Europe and the transformation of Western European societies by the increasing numbers of Muslim immigrants and all the social disruptions/dysfunctions they bring in their train. And his actions are consistent also with someone hitting at those (yes, the "Quislings") who enable the Islamists--either by sins of omission (refusal to even publicly admit of or discuss the problem in Parliament or in the media or elsewhere) or of commission ( the laying of charges and trial of anti-Muslim advocates by officialdom in attempts to jail critics of Islam and stifle free-speech)--by going to the source, i.e., the leaders of the very Government encouraging such sociocultural societal transformation and their indoctrinated "tainted" children.
And make no mistake about it, that island camp WAS in large part a "group bonding" indoctrination session. Did anybody notice the statement of the lefty PM that he, himself, had attended that very camp as a youth and became imbued with the very ideals which caused him to enter politics as a result of his attendance? Seen in that light, the choice of the children of the ruling Quisling left as budding future Quislings, i.e., righteous targets, makes perfect sense.
Is fdf5c032-b5fe-11e0-b34c-000bcdca4d7a a Norwegian name?
"Is fdf5c032-b5fe-11e0-b34c-000bcdca4d7a a Norwegian name?”
Only if pronounced correctly. The third ‘f’ is silent.
Carol_Herman said...
For Norway, from the right, the word is QUISLING.
Their right is the nazi way. And, there aren't enough of them to raise enough money to have carried this off!
Actually, National Socialism is a Leftist ideology (I know we've had this discussion here, but Carol wasn't a regular then).
What Little Zero wanted for Government Motors and the banking industry was what they had in Germany - private ownership, but government made the big decisions.
Rohm split with Hitler because he wanted more of what Lenin and Mussolini had created - state capitalism, where the government owns the means of production.
fdf5c032-b5fe-11e0-b34c-000bcdca4d7a said...
<>
So what should the next "let me show the world how much of a victim I am" event be? What liberal people or agencies have it coming the most?
Last I looked, the Lefties had victimhood all locked up.
PS FWIW, Vidkun Quisling seems to be more anti-Communist than hard core Nazi, his interest in National Socialism coming rather late in the game (1939). Although his government participated in the New Order, he originally condemned Kristallnacht.
Perhaps more go along to get along.
In Norway,extremism is rewarded. Arafat was mentioned, but this is more typical:
"They’ve been extremely gentle with Mullah Krekar, Norway’s resident terrorist. While some government officials have (admirably) labored to get the founder of Ansar al-Islam returned to his native Iraq, the system has repeatedly protected him, allowing him to stay in a very nice flat in Oslo, where he is supported by the state. Over the years the Norwegian media have churned out countless profiles of this murderous, child-torturing monster, invariably depicting him as a charming, grandfatherly type and allowing him plenty of space to bash the United States."
Extremism is rewarded in Norway, so no one should be surprised that their own residents have noticed the incentives and responded accordingly.
There will be more and more, including on our own shores.
Carol_Herman said...
Was a QUISLING not a QUISLING?
It's synonymous with traitor, not any ideology.
Man, if SPIN were a ride ... you'be be going in circles for 24 hours a day.
As Trevor Howard said to Edward Mulhare, "You're priceless".
I don't care to discuss a psychopathic individual. I cannot understand insanity and don't care to feed this murderer's ego by writing words.
Oh, dear.
Let's do something. Send a casserole.
Extremism is rewarded in Norway, so no one should be surprised that their own residents have noticed the incentives and responded accordingly.
Not that you condone it of course.
It's just bound to happen though!
"And make no mistake about it, that island camp WAS in large part a "group bonding" indoctrination session.”
The same could be said of a meeting of the Chamber of Commerce. If your point is that he was successful in killing the people he intended to kill, you are correct. Bravo.
Ban Christianity" is the war cry from the left.
Have the Norwegians considered changing their flag after all this?
Let's not pretend Breivik didn't have a perfectly good reason to go on his murderous rampage!
Absolutely! Norway must be asking itself, "Why does he hate us?"
First off, would someone point to me what makes this evil man a "Christian Fundamentalist", I haven't seen any thing that he ran around murdering while shouting "Jesus Akbar" or something.
I guarantee you that every Christian church today is offering prayers for the Norwegian victims of this atrocity.
Obviously, too, he never read the full quote that Anne posted; AFAIK "persuasion" doesn't include bullets to the head.
The Norwegian police admitted he wasn't on their radar because they can find no ties between him and any of the small neo-Nazi groups they have under surveillance. He's even more of a "lone wolf" than Nidal Hassan and his evil deeds are no reflection on 99.9% of observant Christians.
Nothing ameliorates his act of profound evil. I do wonder why it took 95 minutes for a response at the island AND why he is only facing 21 years in prison.
And I look at the pickled in ideology Leftists who have taken to the 'net - e.g. Twitter - to call this guy the "tea party terrorist" as morally bereft. What drives such ilk to be gleeful of dipping their hands into the blood of the young victims to attempt to politically smear others?
What I condemn is how Norway has condoned violent and extremist principles, because it incentivized violence among Muslims there, and point out they should act surprised when others to respond in kind.
And I fear we are on the same track.
If you are suggesting I support that response, you can go to hell, you slimeball.
should *not* act
Norway, being an enlightened society, I' m sure this fiend will be gently interrogated, ably represented in court, rehabilitated in a state-of-the-art corrections facility, allowed conjugal visits, maybe weekend passes; after a decade or so, and eventual freedom, after he publicly repents.
If he had more timed devices ready to go off, would the Norwegians have had the cajones to waterboard him to find their locations..?
95 percent of Norwegians don't go to church, and neither did this guy.
'Christian fundamentalist' doesn't apply.
I'm more interested in how he got all those guns. I thought Norway had Gun control.
When the spin stops, you're going to ask yourself did Breivik really act alone? Did he send his mom out to buy his bullets and guns? What about the clothing?
What about the car?
What about the bill for 9 tons of fertilizer? Or was it bought on credit?
So far, Norway's politicians want to blame America. For what?
When you grasp there's NO "for what?" there ... you'll see people in Oslo coming awake, and drawing their own conclusions.
As to the "bonding experiences" of Utoya Island ... I think "something happened" that wrecked Cinderella's ball.
You want one man to have carried out the whole thing AND paid for it?
Me thinks the Norwegians are running out of paint for their brush.
Staying a soft target? REALLY?
Not finding out how this "one lone madman" got enough money together? Only when money in Oslo grows on trees. (Thanks for listening.)
"Have the Norwegians considered changing their flag after all this?”
No. They’re too busy banning Christianity. In a country where people are born into the Lutheran church and are legally unable to disavow membership until age 16.
But..."Last I looked, the Lefties had victimhood all locked up”.
BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA.
Carol! We got it! SPIN! The first fourteen times! You said it!
"One person with belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests."
And, gawd, there's so many of them,...
Trying to somehow place Islamic militarism somewhere in the contemporary American left/right plane belies a grave misunderstanding of the American political landscape at best.
@10:52am/
FOOL! I was simply describing--putting my take --on the thinking of the shooter, NOT putting MY OWN value judgement on the righteousness of the action.
Besides which, the island youth camp and the Chamber of Commerce are hardly synonymous/congruent. One is a semi-formal gathering of impressionable youth whose politics/ideology has yet to be firmly established and highly susceptible to "grooved thinking"/"Group-Think" social pressures in isolated settings that can often have the subtle effect equivalent to an indoctrination session; the other an association of adult professionals whose values, opinions and politics are usually well-formed/informed and independently arrived at.
My guess is they keep describing him as Christian for the same reason we told Hasan was motivated by second-hand PTSD.
"fdf5c032-b5fe-11e0-b34c-000bcdca4d7a, you're just trying way to hard to find a tea party connection here. Let me help you out. It ain't there.”
Wow you’re sharp. Yes, you found me out. All I’ve done is talk about the tea party in this thread. When I’m not demanding that we outlaw Christianity, mandate gay marriage, and incarcerate Sarah Palin.
Detailed article up at Drudge. Highlighted in RED. Explaining how the police took 90 minutes to respond to reports of hearing gunfire on little Utoya Island.
Oh, and the evidence for "christian fundamentalism," is that this kook found websites ... where he posted his diatribes in ENGLISH!
When you stop spinning you will figure out that this whole thing was a set up. And, the Norwegian police bare more responsibility than you can shake a stick at!
Norwegians will have to come to terms with this hatred of America. And, with their own short views of what they thought is America's fundamentalism.
Their next "peace prize" is not going to hold value.
Money does not grow on trees.
And, the spin-meisters will have to contend with the angry blow-back. Believe it. Or not.
The Islamists and Breivik may be somewhat similar in their desire to get back to a past that never was; Breivik's just 70 years ago, the Islamist more like 700+.
"Norwegians will have to come to terms with this hatred of America. And, with their own short views of what they thought is America's fundamentalism.”
Exactly. They should apologize to us immediately for their loss. Then they should fully investigate why the police killed all those people.
Oh looky ... it appears Breivik's "manifesto" was largely copied word for word from the Unabomber's
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=no&tl=en&u=http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7725223
He is even pro-gay, which seems to undermine the argument that he's a "Christian fundamentalist".
It's interesting that the one possible motivation factor not being talked about is the fact the shooter is gay.
Trying to somehow place Islamic militarism somewhere in the contemporary American left/right plane belies a grave misunderstanding of the American political landscape at best.
This. And the same can be said for trying to put a lot of foreign ideologies (particularly the more extreme aspects of the European Right) on a traditional American-style left/right plane. What's right and left here doesn't necessarily translate overseas and vice-versa.
Oh, and Carol Herman is still a pathetic babbling imbecile. But that's not news or spin.
Here's his beef with Norway
Is fdf5c032-b5fe-11e0-b34c-000bcdca4d7a a Norwegian name?
No, but fdf5cø32-b5fe-11eø-b34c-øøøbcdca4d7a is.
'He is even pro-gay, which seems to undermine the argument that he's a "Christian fundamentalist".'
Is 'pro-gay' the new litmus test for reasonableness and tolerance? A new shorthand method of determining a person's legitimacy?.
If he is pro-gay I guess he does have some redeeming value.
"I guarantee you that every Christian church today is offering prayers for the Norwegian victims of this atrocity. “
I’m sure most are offering prayers for the victims. But I would bet that at least some pastors are echoing comments made here. Many killed were participating in a liberal indoctrination session, after all. And Phelps probably is contending that at least one of those killed was gay....
So far there is no evidence that he is insane, so the death penalty seems obvious. Does Norway have that or are they one of the countries that have "civilized" themselves into barbaric corners?
I think there are people who want to murder and will use whatever ideas are at hand to rationalize it to themselves. Murdering a bunch of teenagers at camp is obviously not going to further a cause, whatever that cause may be, so I think that furthering a cause is an unlikely explanation, though he may be justifying his extreme violence to himself that way.
Gay?
I just want to see the money tree.
Because?
Some things are just not free!
The set up? WOW! The spin began before the police arrived at Utoya Island! The police claim they had no boats. And, no helicopter.
But a photographer got to the location, first. And, from his helicopter ride ... took a picture of this fella, shooting.
He made sure to go back and re-shoot everybody. TWICE.
So, again, besides the fact that Norwegians hate American's ... How do you grow a money tree to afford this crap?
Did this dude just go to the local ATM machines and withdraw cash?
Will those who live in Oslo find that the scales fell off their eyeballs?
Europeans do not practice anything that comes with an American tag!
Nice try though, to connect this to Columbine. Virginia Tech. And, the Murrah Building in Oklahoma.
I wonder IF, like Casey Anthony was said to have used her computer ... will Breivik's computer be checked for links searching out "how to" information?
The freak is home grown!
And, yes. I want to see his money tree. (Jarad Loughner had his parents.)
Carol_Herman said...
I just want to see the money tree.
Because?
Some things are just not free!
The set up? WOW! The spin began before the police arrived at Utoya Island! The police claim they had no boats. And, no helicopter.
But a photographer got to the location, first. And, from his helicopter ride ... took a picture of this fella, shooting.
He made sure to go back and re-shoot everybody. TWICE.
Excellent point. The Mike Wallace Rule in action.
Some people should keep their imbeciles to themselves.
The cryptographer is a fucking ghoul, barely concealing his glee.
Righteousness always has the metalllic stink of blood and cordite.
Open ID name-fail guy seems to be one of those ignorant Americans who don't understand that "Christian fundamentalist" doesn't mean the same think in Europe as it does here. In America it means Christians who believe in the literal interpretation of scripture, salvation by grace (instead of works), upholding conservative lifestyle values like no sex before marriage, and so on. In Europe, "Christian Fundamentalism" is a boogeyman drawn from exaggerated movie portraits of fanatical Southern preachers yelling about hellfire, and has come to mean anyone who goes to church for anything other than a wedding, christening, or funeral. I rather doubt the Norwegian killer had been to a church since his own christening, and what he knew about the faith of his own people seemed to be the usual cartoony stuff about knight crusaders running around looking good in armor and rescuing damsels in distress from the Saracen.
But no nation, no matter what the issue, deserves to have its children marked for slaughter.
How the hell he thought doing that would help his cause-it's irrational.
But I do think there has to be a line drawn in the insanity defense.
This guy planned this for either 9 years (according to nrk.no).
This guy knew what he was doing.
*********
rh is right.
*****
They always have a manifesto. It's supposed to tell us-why which it never really does- it never makes "sense".
These loon manifesto's are never going to help us stop the next one.
About the only thing that would is if the world and the media told these bastards that we don't care.
But of course we do-because we think we can stop it.
It's a morbid circle that is feeding on itself.
What path is it going to lead us down?
A psychologist in Norway was saying that "the manifesto" could be studied to try to prevent the next one.
But what are we going to end up with-Minority Report like arrests?
These types of terrorist acts we can only hope to minimize and contain them.
And it would be nice to stop feeding the beast-but it's hard to tell who that is -the media or the madmen.
I was trying to understand last night why a "racist" murderer would target his own kind almost completely in his attacks.
This, Breivik's own video, in English, explains it well:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xk3adc_the-oslo-killer-video-show-anders-behring-breivik-horror-in-norway_news
He saw the Norwegian multi-culti's, in this case the Labor Party, as his primary enemies.
This was not a racist attack per se, but it sure as hell was an ideologically based one. This was a right-winger murdering left-wingers. This guy had a plan, and he acted on it.
And, as others have pointed out, there is precious little reference to Christianity, except as a component of European self-identity.
And Phelps probably is contending that at least one of those killed was gay
Phelps is a democrat and his "church" consists entirely of his own repugnant family.
Want to try again? I mean, DO come back with some audio of "blame the victim" pulpit speeches ... you know, like Rev Wright's "G-ddamn America" stuff.
Is 'pro-gay' the new litmus test for reasonableness and tolerance? A new shorthand method of determining a person's legitimacy?.
The police had to wait to see if anybody was going to glitter him. That's how they know whether to take someone seriously or not.
"Open ID name-fail guy seems to be one of those ignorant Americans who don't understand that "Christian fundamentalist" doesn't mean the same think in Europe as it does here.”
I have engaged in no discussion of the meaning of Christian fundamentalism.
But, by all means, Andrea, look within yourself to divine the level of my understanding of Christian fundamentalism, the churchgoing habits of a killer, and his concepts of religious life. Facts don’t carry a candle to the truth in your heart, sweetie.
Well, at least you know what's SPINNING! "Amerika, the terrible."
As envisioned by europeans. Who've never set foot on our soil.
As to the madman ... He's gotta be as known to those in Norway ... as the kids that got killed!
All America has provided is the English language! Of which we can probably thank the King James version of the Bible. (Written about 1603). And, Shakespeare.
With the left using BUZZ WORDS. Believe what you want.
The tragedy that 4 or 5 million Norwegians have to absorb ... is that the Peace Prize didn't hold back what happens (almost as a general rule), to soft targets.
Once? Tel Aviv was a soft target. To Israel's credit they have no fears of their IDF carrying guns. Heck, they even stop when these kids stick their thumbs out for a lift.
In Oslo, however, there was terror to the point even the cops didn't carry guns.
And, the prime minister's office, plus all of their government, was wide open.
Now? How come the Norwegians are hot to blame American Christianity and Fundamentalism? That's what the average person in Oslo saw with their eyes?
... And, money grows on trees.
"All America has provided is the English language! “
Post of the day.
Freeman
I have been trying to hunt that down.
Google translator stinks as in for example it keeps translating the Norwegian word for "victims" as "vermin". -uh ya.
Anyways I think things are getting lost in translation all over the place .
Tomorrow is suppose to be his "incarceration" hearing.
What I have seen is this direct quote from the San Francisco Chronicle:
He has been charged in both the explosion in the center of the government area and also the shooting," Roger Andresen, deputy Oslo police chief, told reporters today. The two counts of "dangerous crimes to society" mean he could receive 21 years in prison, Norway's toughest punishment, he said.
Now The Daily Caller interpreted that as a maximum of 21 years.
It could also be that it gets doubled to 42 years.
Or that those are just the largest counts and there might be more.
So we are going to have to wait and see.
I'm finding it hard to believe The Daily Caller's interpretation.
Heck let me go fetch their summary.
The alleged mass murderer who killed nearly 100 people in Norway on Friday may be facing just 21 years in prison if convicted. Norway does not have the death penalty.
Oslo police chief of staff Roger Andresen told the San Francisco Chronicle that the maximum prison term suspected killer Anders Behring Breivik could face is 21 years under Norwegian law.
Two law professors at the University of Oslo confirmed Andresen’s assessment.
“21 years in prison is the maximum,” Professor Per Ole Johansen told The Daily Caller.
“The max punishment may — theoretically — be increased, but not for crimes which are already committed,” he said, when asked whether it was possible for the punishment to be increased considering the scale of this specific mass crime.
“[I]f the prisoner behaves, he or she will probably be released several years earlier,” Professor Nils Christie told TheDC while also confirming that 21 years is the maximum penalty in Norway.
Christie, however, said it is theoretically possible for the perpetrator to be held in prison longer than 21 years, though it almost never happens.
“If, however, the person is seen as a particular danger to society, the person might receive a sentence that authorize prison authorities to keep him or her even longer when the 21 years are coming close to the end,” he added. “This wish must again be brought up for a court. As far as I know, such a situation nearly never appear.”
http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/23/police-alleged-norwegian-mass-murderer-faces-just-21-years-in-prison/#ixzz1T2kHu4aE">the Daily Caller
Wow The Daily Caller has added a significant amount of information to that story-which is actually good-since I last read it.
btw-The Russians had the same interpretation.
And no I believe that Norway does not have the death penalty.
Blogger no longer allows us to link to other webpages?
When did that happen?
Anyways I've got to go.
Blogger was refusing to let me do a link to that .
"I guarantee you that every Christian church today is offering prayers for the Norwegian victims of this atrocity. “
I hope you’re right. I’m just expressing doubt. And whether Phelps is a Democrat or Republican is neither here nor there. There are many churches that view Europe as a current day Gomorrah.
Freeman Hunt,
So far there is no evidence that he is insane, so the death penalty seems obvious. Does Norway have that or are they one of the countries that have "civilized" themselves into barbaric corners?
No, they do not. I heard it on the news last night:
The most he can get for killing 90+ people is - wait for it - 21 years!
I shit you not.
21 years?! Barbaric.
Never underestimate the ability of sociopaths to justify their behavior and for an astonishing number of people to believe them.
There are many churches that view Europe as a current day Gomorrah.
And you think it then follows that they would be supportive about a bunch of European teenagers being murdered?
garage is full of hypocritical shit as always. When 9/11 happened they were so quick to cry out "why did they do it to us"? Now when we want to understand why Breivik did this, we can't even ask the question. Those who do are tarred with the Nazi brush. Thanks garbage for polluting these waters!
Remember after 9-11, the liberals cried "we deserved it, it was blowback for our support of Israel and having a base in KSM"....
I stole this comment:
"So it’s really a political philosophy that killed those people, and not a crazy man with an excuse???
I don’t think so."
And, let me repeat:
It's only believable if money grows on trees!
Re: the paltry sentence of 21 years for murdering 100 people.
Not long ago, a Turkish immigrant smuggler was tried in the Netherlands for accidentally suffocating in the hold of his ship 45 illegal Chinese immigrants on their way to Britain.
His sentence: 15 years. That's 4 months per dead chinese.
Maybe now that it's white nationals getting murdered, Europe may reconsider its pathetically lax sentencing guidelines, which can be, as shown above, as racist in their impact as harsh guidelines.
"And you think it then follows that they would be supportive about a bunch of European teenagers being murdered?”
Nope. I think it follows that the opposite of praying for victims is not praying for victims. I do not think it follows that the opposite of praying in support of victims is... supporting their slaughter.
"Remember after 9-11, the liberals cried "we deserved it, it was blowback for our support of Israel and having a base in KSM"....”
I don’t remember that. I do remember that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson blamed the ACLU, abortionists, feminists, gays, and the People For the American way as sharing in the blame.
I do not think it follows that the opposite of praying in support of victims is... supporting their slaughter
What exactly is your point?
Union group calls 911 attacks blowback
Folks, I need to get something off my chest. Forgive me this rant:
Carol_Herman, please STFU.
Nobody here can make sense of what you're posting here. It's the same everywhere else you comment. You're a distraction to the rest of us with your tinfoil bullshit that only seems to make sense to you. Over the years, I've conditioned myself to passing over everything you post on general principles, because you so incredibly obtuse and nonsensical! Every so often, my conditioning fails me, and I actually scan over your drivel, which has a quality of negative reinforcement, but it pisses me off nonetheless.
Please go be a bother elsewhere.
Nope. I think it follows that the opposite of praying for victims is not praying for victims.
So you think a good number of Christians will withhold prayer for murdered teenagers because they don't like Europe?
Mr Hexadecimal Key,
For someone using a hexadecimal key as a handle, you sure seem to be clueless as to how things on the web work, such as Google.
"I don't remember [the left blaming America for 9-11]"
Jeez, a quick google search turns up:
Howard Zinn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PgiQpk-16I
Rev Wright:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXDWLDvxth8
WaPo's William Arkin:
http://bigjournalism.com/phuessy/2010/07/19/wapos-william-arkin-blamed-america-for-911-attacks/
DU poster:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4744003&mesg_id=4744590
All this in just a few minutes!
Are you really that ignorant or were you being disingenuous?
It's a shame that in today's American society, you feel compelled to explain a Biblical reference, but don't have to explain "fluffer."
"Why amass armies or even terrorist groups, when individuals, understanding the idea, can take up their arms and set out on the day they feel called and take down 100 (or more) selected individuals who represent these "new faces in the Progress party" (or whomever the enemy is supposed to be)?"
I may be mistaken, but the Progress Party is considered fairly conservative on issues of immigration and nationalism. They would not be the "marxist enemies" of Breivik's manifesto, but erstwhile friends rejected for being too milquetoast.
"Remember after 9-11, the liberals cried "we deserved it, it was blowback for our support of Israel and having a base in KSM"....”
About 9 years after 9-11, a group of NYC workers and trade unionists released a (in my opinion) poorly-worded statement against anti-Islamic sentiment and against a war on Iran. It uses the term “blowback” to describe 9-11. It uses nothing resembling the “we deserve it” that you describe.
If this is the “blame America first” crowd, they’re rather slow on the draw. Falwell and Robertson got there long ago.
Chickens.
Coming home.
To roost.
Criticizing US support of Saudi Arabia or explaining OBL’s reasons for hating the US do not amount to “we deserved it”. Criticism of US Intelligence doesn’t either.
Yes, liberals are so unpatriotic that Bush’s approval rating went up to 90% after 9/11 because liberals hate America so much.
http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/boycott-israel.jpg
YoungHegelian said...
Are you really that ignorant
Yes.
@fdf5c032-b5fe-11e0-b34c-000bcdca4d7a:
Never Forget...
The Little Eichmanns
!
After all, Ward Churchill is a noted right-winger.
Quit while you're ahead. Your peeps behaved atrociously after 9/11.
BTW, Falwell and Robinson aren't my people. Fallwell was an asshole and Robinson still is.
I'm an atheist, after all.
"Since this trajedy happened, I've tried to find out all that I could about Norway, and have come to the conclusion that the place is fucked up."
AlanS, you mean its even worse than here?
That's hard to believe.
Lefties never recall Stalin, Mao or others of their murderous philosophy They never acknowledge the cover they gave, and give, the murderers lo these decades. It is as though it never happened.
"After all, Ward Churchill is a noted right-winger.”
Churchill is a revolutionary. He wants to dissolve the state. I’d guess the same of Rev. Wright. You may consider them liberals but I disagree.
Liberals in this country united with the President after 9-11. Liberal senators sang “God bless America” with their conservative counterparts on the steps of the Capitol. Bush’s approval ratings went up to 90%. I recall the time as one of extraordinary American unity.
I cannot imagine any set of circumstances that might lead Obama to 90% favorability. Obama could eliminate poverty, taxes, debt, and terrorism and enjoy less conservative support.
The real victims of the tragedy are in Norway. The real victims are not: Christians in America, “cultural conservatism”, the tea party, or those who have to endure Obama’s “negro dialect”.
Jeremiah Wright wants to overthrow the government? Gee, that's 2 new things I've learned today (the other was the word "fluffer").
"I cannot imagine any set of circumstances that might lead Obama to 90% favorability. Obama could eliminate poverty, taxes, debt, and terrorism and enjoy less conservative support."
All of the conservatives i know fervently hoped that Obama would succeed. We conservatives want a strong business environment and could care less if it comes from a lefty. But it never does. You cannot imagine because you project.
"I don't think this guy is anything like Jared Loughner. This guy isn't literally crazy like Loughner."
What do you call seeking out and randomly killing 90+ kids during an 1.5 hour assault? "Crazy" comes to mind.
What do you call seeking out and randomly killing 90+ kids during an 1.5 hour assault? "Crazy" comes to mind.
Just because you can't fathom it, doesn't make him crazy. Evil yes, but not crazy. He knew exactly what he was doing. A dagger in the heart of the Norwegian Labor party. Essentially for himself, he killed 100 future Labor party activists + mentally scarred hundreds more. A very calculated plot and executed.
"All of the conservatives i know fervently hoped that Obama would succeed. We conservatives want a strong business environment and could care less if it comes from a lefty. But it never does. You cannot imagine because you project.”
I’m not sure how you define “strong business environment” but taxes are lower than they’ve been in a LONG time. The last period of sustained growth that resulted in real wage growth across income levels was under Bill Clinton.
I would expect almost unanimous conservative praise when Obama lowers taxes, achieves military op victories, or offers to scale down entitlements.
To be fair there has been some. Pat Buchanan (of all people) has championed Obama’s offers in recent debt talks. But how can one whine when the death of OBL has just been announced? At National Review it was about 50/50 applause/whining.
but taxes are lower than they’ve been in a LONG time
Define taxes. I'm going to put up another building. I found out that unlike years ago, when all I needed was a building permit ($15), I now had to buy a land use permit ($150). Then, I had to buy a building permit ($50).
"Define taxes. I'm going to put up another building. I found out that unlike years ago, when all I needed was a building permit ($15), I now had to buy a land use permit ($150). Then, I had to buy a building permit ($50).”
While federal rates (and net federal revenue) are historically low, yes there are always local pieces to the equation.
"I cannot imagine any set of circumstances that might lead Obama to 90% favorability. Obama could eliminate poverty, taxes, debt, and terrorism and enjoy less conservative support."
All of the conservatives i know fervently hoped that Obama would succeed. We conservatives want a strong business environment and could care less if it comes from a lefty. But it never does. You cannot imagine because you project.
"sweetie"
Go to hell, you patronizing, smug jerk. On the way there, fix your goddamn openID profile so you have a normal user name so you don't come off as such a newb tool.
Hey folks, got any suggestions for a user name for fdsdfghlkjhgft-863er7896 guy? Mine is "getsnopussyever."
Fianally, a Nowegian worthy of a Nobel Peace Prize!!! In his short lifetime he has done more for humanity than Al Gore, who has starved millions with his 'global warming' ideas or Barrack Obama, who has used Nobel's invention to mold ideas from Washington to Libiya. BTW--the history of Norway can be summed up by the intermingling of two ethic tribes--the "Uffdas" and the "Quislings", they joined together to welcome der Furher as an ally in WWII and experienced only token resistance, much like today's freedom fighter and Nobel peace nominee Brieveck. Youth "re-education" camps for the party in power? Perhaps a spark of freedom still exists in the desert known as Norway. One can imagine a 'perfect world'--at least in San Francisco--where all problems with humans can be solved by passing a "law" mandating the circumsision of dicks and cunts.
I guess right now would not be a good time for Althouse to take us all on a field trip to Wisconsin's Little Norway
It's chock-full of trolls and little garden gnomes.
Post a Comment