February 24, 2024

"Evangelical tradition has built a public identity around being pro-family and pro-children, and many adherents are inclined to see I.V.F. positively..."

"... because it creates more children.... But the Alabama decision 'is a very morally honest opinion,' said Andrew T. Walker, associate professor of Christian ethics and public theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. The ruling, he said, shows the direct line of reasoning between belief that life begins at conception, and opposition to abortion and I.V.F. 'It’s going to force conservative Christians to reckon with potentially their own complicity in the in vitro fertilization industry,' he said. The Roman Catholic Church is perhaps the largest institution in the world that opposes I.V.F. Nearly all modern fertility interventions are morally forbidden. The I.V.F. process typically includes many elements that the Catholic Church opposes. There’s masturbation — an 'offense against chastity,' according to the catechism, or teaching — often required to collect sperm. There’s the fertilization of an egg and sperm outside a woman’s body — outside the sacramental 'conjugal act' of sex between a husband and wife. And there is the creation of multiple embryos that are often destroyed or not implanted — an 'abortive practice.'..."

From "What Christian Traditions Say About I.V.F. Treatments/While Catholic teaching expressly forbids in vitro fertilization, Protestants tend to be more open" (NYT).

ADDED: "IVF" is a new tag. I've added it to posts in the archive, which had previously just had the tag "pregnancy." I'm going to go back and read what's come up over the last 20 years that got my attention. I remember when this subject first emerged in the 1970s, when there was open puzzlement over whether Louise Brown was a human being like the rest of us. These days, it seems, most people take it for granted and feel empathy for people who want children and have fertility problems. In that light, we may lose track of the deep religious objection, which, we may like to forget, is premised on taking sexual intercourse extremely seriously. 

I was just listening to the episode of the podcast "Advisory Opinions" called "Alabama Against IVF," and, if I remember correctly, the discussion assumes that the Alabama court, interpreting the text of a statute, bumbled into making the IVF industry economically unfeasible. But I can see that it's important to realize that there is a religious understanding of it that sees it as genuinely evil, perhaps more evil than abortion.

ALSO: If a frozen embryo is a person — if — then how can those who contributed the genetic material stand in the way of those who would like to adopt the ungestated child — that is, who would like that embryo implanted in their womb and then raised as their own child? How can the agreement between the medical authorities and the genetic parents/"parents" bind the ungestated child?

66 comments:

rhhardin said...

Not to mention perfectly good fertilized eggs that simply don't implant. If the place of implantation is random, it's random whether they implant at all.

Birches said...

Correct. Many doctors who are in the IVF business are not interested in the ethics of it. I'm not as against IVF as a faithful Catholic but I do think that those considering it should be more judicious than the doctors suggest.

I know of one couple who had six successful embryos. They eventually implanted all six, two at a time because they didn't want any destroyed. That was something they considered before even going the IVF route.

Yancey Ward said...

A true tempest in a teapot. Even in Alabama, the law will be rewritten to allow IVF to continue.

Tom T. said...

Having now read the opinion, the media's treatment of this case has been heavily politicized bullshit. A couple who underwent IVF sued the clinic for damages under the Wrongful Death of a
Minor Act, because it negligently allowed their stored embryos to be destroyed. It has long been the law that that statute applies to unborn children, but the clinic argued that there should be an exception for embryos outside the womb. The court held that there wasn't; that's all it did. It even indicated that its ruling does not establish criminal liability and does not apply to consensual procedures, such as removal of an ectopic pregnancy.

One judge wrote a crazy concurrence contending that the state constitution embodies a religious protection of all embryos. That's what set off the controversy, but no other judge joined the opinion.

The clinics are closing because they don't want to be liable for negligence, and they think that by magnifying the issue they can get extra protection from the state legislature.

Quayle said...

The policy of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is found in Section 38.6.9 of the general handbook, which cites to the applicable doctrine:

“Fertility Treatments
The pattern of a husband and wife providing bodies for God’s spirit children is divinely appointed (see 2.1.3). When needed, reproductive technology can assist a married woman and man in their righteous desire to have children. This technology includes artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization.

The Church discourages artificial insemination or in vitro fertilization using sperm from anyone but the husband or an egg from anyone but the wife. However, this is a personal matter that is ultimately left to the judgment and prayerful consideration of a lawfully married man and woman.”

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

No mention of what far-leftists demand?

Rusty said...

In our area more than half the IVF patients were Jewish.
IVF is mostly for women. Women will accept a sperm donor if their husband is infertile, but every woman wants a child. They want to know their equipment works. If they have a moral problem with IVF then don't do it. Adopt.

Tom T. said...

The law at issue, the Wrongful Death of a
Minor Act, was ruled to apply to unborn children while Roe v. Wade was in place, and it was never held to conflict with any abortion rights. So the answer to Ann's sententious questions about forced adoption are easy: the law doesn't apply.

And of course it's silly to suggest that liability for negligence should make an industry economically unfeasible.

Gusty Winds said...

Sweet Home Alabama...could you give us a break? Remember when George Snuffleupagus made birth control a fake issue in 2012? Not that we would have been better off with Pierre Delecto a President, but it cost him, and it was all contrived.

What we're trying to do is find something reasonable. Eliminate the Democrat and Feminist thirst for infanticide...late second and third trimester elective abortions.

Here, Alabama is taking it down to the zygote level, and Trump is trying to find a reasonable 16-week middle ground.

traditionalguy said...

I’m from the government and I’m here to help. Uh oh.

Earnest Prole said...

Be careful what you ask for.

Spiros said...

You can't do IVF without masturbation. So, at least, the Catholic Church is consistent.

narciso said...

Dems want to kill all life prefereably they want to leave only a quarter of the population

M said...

Eggs do not have to be fertilized to be frozen. It will cost more to thaw them out one (or however many the patient wishes to be implanted with) at a time and fertilize them but it will not make IVF illegal. At all. More leftist hysteria.

Gusty Winds said...

Is anybody REALLY anti-masturbation? Come on.

Howard said...

Pro tip, Tom T: 99.9% of the news is politicized bullshit that has zero meaning or impact to daily life.

All the shit Ann posts that triggers her clientele is a chimera engineered and designed by algorithms to infantilize and monetize punters. There's always a big under the surface. Thanks for playing.

Ryan said...

Quayle, is the general handbook scripture?

Balfegor said...

Re: Gusty Winds:

Is anybody REALLY anti-masturbation? Come on.

If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.

Hey Skipper said...

ALSO: If a frozen embryo is a person — if — then how can those who contributed the genetic material stand in the way of those ...

This is a glaring category mistake.

From the moment of fertilization, the future for that life will end in one of two ways: natural causes, or homicide (death via human agency.). There is no third way. There is no moment between fertilization and death when this isn't true.

If there are more fertilized eggs than are implanted, then wastage is, by definition, homicide.

"Personhood" has nothing to do with it.

Václav Patrik Šulik said...

I submit that this is not a religious issue, like transubstantiation or consubstantiation or Real Prescence. It may be for particular denominations, but first it is a legal/public issue.

Are frozen embryos U.S. Citizens? Republishing my late comment to the prior post:

I have long thought this is an interesting question and I think Alabama gets it right. Specifically, Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution states: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." [Relevant part]

There has been a lot of debate on whether the 14th Amendment applies to the unborn (I don't think it does because they have not been "born"), but I think you would have a hard time saying the embryos aren't human and haven't been born.

Briefly, Webster's unabridged 1864 dictionary defines born as "Brought forth, as an animal; brought into life; introduced by birth." And it defines birth as "The act or fact of coming into life, or of being born."

And be careful thinking you can pass a statute to say that human embryos aren't covered by the 14th Amendment. There are those who want to also end birthright citizenship by passing a statute.

Arguably, you could create a process to deprive these frozen embryos of the right to terminate their life and liberty. ("...nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...")

Ice Nine said...

Wait, the Catholic church still has a hard-on about masturbation? Really?

Joe Smith said...

@Quayle 8:21am

The LDS advice sounds reasonable.

OT, I went to high school with a lot of Mormon girls and was good friends with many.

My theory of why Mormons have a lot of kids is because the women are so hot : )

Sebastian said...

Let's apply the Prasad Rule to MSM reporting as well.

But if we follow the OMG approach to the IVF frozen embryo issue, perhaps we should invoke the Althouse Axiom that people don't believe what they profess to believe.

Drago said...

Over-compensating non-combat "vet" Howitzer Howard: "All the shit Ann posts that triggers her clientele is a chimera engineered and designed by algorithms to infantilize and monetize punters. There's always a big under the surface. Thanks for playing."

LOL

This is an example of the dumbest guy at the party having too much to drink and deciding to lecture everyone else.

When Dunning-Kruger rears its sad head the other party goers generally avert their gaze and grab another jumbo shrimp.

Tom T. said...

wastage is, by definition, homicide.

Sure, but the question is what the legal consequences should be. There are lots of homicides we don't prosecute. Even the Catholic Church permits abortion of ectopic pregnancy and wartime killings in combat. We don't typically investigate a miscarriage to see if it should be prosecuted as an actionable homicide.

AlbertAnonymous said...

Love it when the NYT tries to tell us what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. The media hates the church, so they’ll never understand it. And they don’t want to. They just want to mock it and denigrate it.

So naturally they think the Catholic Church is against IVF because it’s against masturbation. And argue it should be in favor of IVF because it’s “pro family”. Morons.

Every year around Christmas I hear some idiot reporter saying “Christmas, is THE most important holiday to the Catholic faith.”

Sorry… try again

Smilin' Jack said...

Never mind IVF:

“Failed implantation is relatively common, especially during the early stages of pregnancy. It is estimated that around 30-50% of fertilized eggs may not successfully implant in the uterine lining.”

That’s several million “children” dying every year, without even a chance to be baptized! We must stop the slaughter! Ban sexual intercourse! Save the children!

Wince said...

Is it "masturbation" if someone else does the tugging?

Quayle said...

“ Quayle, is the general handbook scripture?”

No. But it is approved by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, bodies of offices we hold to be ”Prophets, Seers, and Revelators”. But it is not scripture.

LDS doctrine teaches that we are all spirit children of heavenly parents and have come to an earth through mortal parents, to get a physical body and to experience living with our free will in a world of good and good evil, to learn to distinguish each and to learn to choose the good and the joy that comes with that choice.

But as to when that spirit enters the body that’s been created by mortal parents – so far as I know, there is no LDS doctrine on that point.

Wince said...

Sounds like the NYT is trying to stir-up division among Christians.

Did the NYT tells us what the Islamists teach?

Heck, they could be the tie-breakers.

Ice Nine said...

>Drago said...
...non-combat "vet"<

Don't put "vet" in quotes to suggest, as you did, that he's not really a vet because he isn't a combat veteran.

85% of veterans are not combat vets.

Mark said...

Regarding the Catholic Church, masturbation hardly enters into the natural law and moral considerations.

For anyone who really has a good faith interest in knowing what the Church actually says, the document Donum Vitae - Instruction on respect for human life in its origin and on the dignity of procreation, written by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, explains it all. The preface says:

Basic scientific research and applied research constitute a significant expression of this dominion of man over creation. Science and technology are valuable resources for man when placed at his service and when they promote his integral development for the benefit of all; but they cannot of themselves show the meaning of existence and of human progress. Being ordered to man, who initiates and develops them, they draw from the person and his moral values the indication of their purpose and the awareness of their limits.

It would on the one hand be illusory to claim that scientific research and its applications are morally neutral; on the other hand one cannot derive criteria for guidance from mere technical efficiency, from research's possible usefulness to some at the expense of others, or, worse still, from prevailing ideologies. Thus science and technology require, for their own intrinsic meaning, an unconditional respect for the fundamental criteria of the moral law: that is to say, they must be at the service of the human person, of his inalienable rights and his true and integral good according to the design and will of God. The rapid development of technological discoveries gives greater urgency to this need to respect the criteria just mentioned: science without conscience can only lead to man's ruin. "Our era needs such wisdom more than bygone ages if the discoveries made by man are to be further humanized. For the future of the world stands in peril unless wiser people are forthcoming".

n.n said...

Embryos are human lives. Viable embryos in the natural state will evolve as persons until Her or her Choice. The ubiquitous legal standard for a viable human life is nervous system activity, so a starting point to recapture human rights is six weeks. #NoJudgment #NoLabels And generally discourage the performance of human rites for social, political, criminal, political, and fair weather progress. As for redistributive embryos, sharing denies the individual character of a human life attributable to her mother and father. We are not so desperate for fertile couples that we need to conjure a novel religion of human behavior.

Hey Skipper said...

@Hey Skipper: If there are more fertilized eggs than are implanted, then wastage is, by definition, homicide.

@Tom T: Sure, but the question is what the legal consequences should be. There are lots of homicides we don't prosecute. Even the Catholic Church permits abortion of ectopic pregnancy and wartime killings in combat. We don't typically investigate a miscarriage to see if it should be prosecuted as an actionable homicide.

There are different categories of homicide. Self defense — homicide to prevent serious bodily injury or death — is the only one I know of that is justifiable. Ectopic pregnancy clearly falls into that category.

Wartime killings, by definition, occur outside civil society, so that analogy doesn't apply.

Miscarriages, unless caused by some outside agency, are death by natural causes. Now, if a miscarriage was induced by, say, injuries consequent to a driver texting while driving, then of course that miscarriage should be prosecuted as some form of negligent manslaughter, at the very least.

Almost all abortions are pre-meditated murders of convenience. There is no logically consistent argument that they are any different than first degree murder. Appeals to "personhood", or viability, or heartbeat, or experiencing pain are shallow prevarications avoiding what is really going on: depriving a life the opportunity of dying of natural causes.

Similarly, there is no logically consistent argument that IVF wastage is somehow in a different, undefined, category.

It isn't fair that women uniquely bear this burden. Unfortunately, fairness is orthogonal to the argument.

n.n said...

Think of the Carbon! Go green, not Green. Don't sequester. Emit.

Mark said...

Regarding the plight of frozen embryos, the Church explains that there is no morally right answer of what to do with them - every answer is morally wrong - which is all the more reason not to create them in the first place.

From the Instruction Dignitas Personae on Certain Bioethical Questions:

In recent decades, medical science has made significant strides in understanding human life in its initial stages....These developments are certainly positive and worthy of support when they serve to overcome or correct pathologies and succeed in re-establishing the normal functioning of human procreation. On the other hand, they are negative and cannot be utilized when they involve the destruction of human beings or when they employ means which contradict the dignity of the person or when they are used for purposes contrary to the integral good of man.

The body of a human being, from the very first stages of its existence, can never be reduced merely to a group of cells. The embryonic human body develops progressively according to a well-defined program with its proper finality, as is apparent in the birth of every baby....

The Church, by expressing an ethical judgment on some developments of recent medical research concerning man and his beginnings, does not intervene in the area proper to medical science itself, but rather calls everyone to ethical and social responsibility for their actions. She reminds them that the ethical value of biomedical science is gauged in reference to both the unconditional respect owed to every human being at every moment of his or her existence, and the defense of the specific character of the personal act which transmits life....

Cryopreservation is incompatible with the respect owed to human embryos; it presupposes their production in vitro; it exposes them to the serious risk of death or physical harm, since a high percentage does not survive the process of freezing and thawing; it deprives them at least temporarily of maternal reception and gestation; it places them in a situation in which they are susceptible to further offense and manipulation....

Proposals to use [frozen] embryos for research or for the treatment of disease are obviously unacceptable because they treat the embryos as mere “biological material” and result in their destruction. The proposal to thaw such embryos without reactivating them and use them for research, as if they were normal cadavers, is also unacceptable.

The proposal that these embryos could be put at the disposal of infertile couples as a treatment for infertility is not ethically acceptable for the same reasons which make artificial heterologous procreation illicit as well as any form of surrogate motherhood; this practice would also lead to other problems of a medical, psychological and legal nature.

It has also been proposed, solely in order to allow human beings to be born who are otherwise condemned to destruction, that there could be a form of “prenatal adoption”. This proposal, praiseworthy with regard to the intention of respecting and defending human life, presents however various problems not dissimilar to those mentioned above.

All things considered, it needs to be recognized that the thousands of abandoned embryos represent a situation of injustice which in fact cannot be resolved. Therefore John Paul II made an “appeal to the conscience of the world’s scientific authorities and in particular to doctors, that the production of human embryos should be halted, taking into account that there seems to be no morally licit solution regarding the human destiny of the thousands and thousands of ‘frozen’ embryos which are and remain the subjects of essential rights and should therefore be protected by law as human persons”.

n.n said...

From the moment of fertilization, the future for that life will end in one of two ways: natural causes, or homicide (death via human agency.).

Exactly, Her or her Choice. Other than matters of redistributive change through social progress, there is no moral consideration, and this story is much ado about nothing. Six weeks #NoJudgment #NoLabels, without the liberal, ethical, legal acrobatics.

Ann Althouse said...

"This is a glaring category mistake."

How is my hypothetical question a mistake?

Maybe you could just answer my question first, if it seems very easy to you.

I'm positing that an IVF business has embryos whose biological parents had them created for themselves to have children of their own and they believed these embryos would either be implanted into the female parent or saved indefinitely or destroyed. Now, another couple wants to have one of these embryos implanted for them to have a child and the biological parents don't want this child of theirs raised by these nonbiological parents. With a born child, when parents abandon it, it becomes available for adoption, and we see the adoptive parents as doing something good, providing a home.

I think most of us would instinctively regard the biological parents as owning their embryos and empowered to control what happens to them and to bar the embryo from receiving another path into born life. I'm asking if the new Alabama case suggests that this instinct is not how it should go. I'm asking at the moral level. What is the religious/philosophical analysis?

Howard said...

What's the judges stance on the Mormon practice of soaking?

William50 said...

"I'm asking at the moral level. What is the religious/philosophical analysis?"

Sorry, but the bible has nothing to say on this subject since it was written to people who lived thousands of years ago.

Smilin' Jack said...

“I'm asking if the new Alabama case suggests that this instinct is not how it should go. I'm asking at the moral level. What is the religious/philosophical analysis?”

I’ll consult some chicken entrails and get back to you on that.

Birches said...

I appreciate the Catholic Church's position . It is consistent with its beliefs on life and the afterlife. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints has a different opinion because our view of the afterlife is different. I don't know how Evangelicals grapple with these issues. Honestly, lately it seems as if most feel a position and then find some Biblical evidence for their position after the fact.

Birches said...

I like Ann's added question a lot.

The reflexive answer sounds like a prochoice ad:of course parents/doctors have full autonomy over their embryos. But it goes back to the point of trusting whether the IVF doctors are acting ethically in their practices. If the IVF doctor believed each embryo was a life, they wouldn't let so many exist in freezers or counsel couples to maximize. They don't though, their priorities are completely different than someone else who does believe it. Those with more ethical concerns should not outsource this practice to doctors, trusting they have it right. I know I have less faith in doctors thinking ethically in the past few years. This is just another example. Alabama has now made many of us face this uncomfortable truth while many want to hand wave it away because it makes them feel uneasy.

n.n said...

She reminds them that the ethical value of biomedical science is gauged in reference to both the unconditional respect owed to every human being at every moment of his or her existence, and the defense of the specific character of the personal act which transmits life....

Person and process sounds about right. There is a moral imperative to respect the diversity of individuals, but no impetus to circumvent the character of the process.

Rabel said...

"How can the agreement between the medical authorities and the genetic parents/"parents" bind the ungestated child?"

"If" the IVF embryo is a person/child then the agreement (and the law) would bind it the same way it would bind a gestated child. You can't simply lay a claim on someone else's person/child and adopt it as your own, whether it is IVF embryo or a toddler.

The fact that the parents have the right to kill the IVF person/child should not be a factor in this analysis - note that the embryos are normally at the blastocyst stage when frozen.

I wonder, what is the process for killing such unborn children? Heat? Chemicals? Toilet?

Iman said...

More NYT grappling like Margaret Mead with the cannibals… they couldn’t find their own asses with a map, a flashlight and both paws.

Hey Skipper said...

@Hey Skipper: This is a glaring category mistake.


@Ann Althouse: How is my hypothetical question a mistake?

Maybe you could just answer my question first, if it seems very easy to you.


Here is your full quote:

If a frozen embryo is a person — if — then how can those who contributed the genetic material stand in the way of those who would like to adopt the ungestated child — that is, who would like that embryo implanted in their womb and then raised as their own child?

I plead guilty to jumping all over "person" and failing to consider the rest of the question — "category mistake" simply does not apply.

Had I read and thought more carefully, my answer would have been this: Those who contributed the genetic material could stand in the way of adopting an ungestated child in exactly the same way as they could for a newborn baby.

Friend of the Fish Folk said...

I've met Justice Parker on a few occasions and even had lunch with him once. My impression of him has always been that he is a religious blowhard, perhaps reliable on many conservative issues but off the reservation when an issue gets clouded with religion. This is the unfortunate reality of having elected justices in a deeply religious state. The only people who can get elected appeal to the religious zealots out in the sticks, and anything related to merit or qualifications is secondary to that.

To the people suggesting this is getting blown out of proportion, I believe he probably wrote the opinion this way to get exactly this kind of reaction. Maybe he wants to pick away at IVF out of some religious motivation, but more likely he just wants to raise his political profile since he isn't eligible to run for justice again. He may want to be the next Roy Moore and run for higher office. These politicians aren't as stupid as we tend to think.

This decision seems erroneous at the very least because it seems to conflate "conception" with "fertilization." Only when an embryo is implanted is it properly "conceived" because prior to that (and afterward) any number of factors might cause the embryo to become unviable. How can something that never became viable be a "life" within the context of the law?

Rusty said...

Spiros said...
"You can't do IVF without masturbation. So, at least,Catholic Church is consistent."
I asked the nurse, before I went into the little room, if my wife could come with me and, you know, spit it into the little cup? So I asked the nurse if she'd give me a hand.

That "IF" stands there like an accusing sentinal doesn't it Ms Althouse. Some couples have gone so far as to have last rites said for the embryos.
The fact is not all enbryos are viable. In our case 2 to 1.

Hey Skipper said...

Oh, for Pete's sake.

I need to remember very important words to live by: RTQ, ATQ. Read the question, answer the question.

So, trying again:

I think most of us would instinctively regard the biological parents as owning their embryos and empowered to control what happens to them and to bar the embryo from receiving another path into born life. I'm asking if the new Alabama case suggests that this instinct is not how it should go. I'm asking at the moral level. What is the religious/philosophical analysis?

What I gave previously was my instinctive, unthinking, dumb answer. (That's twice today.)

The philosophical analysis is that the biological parents own the embryo so long as they agree to maintain the embryo in such a manner that its opportunity to die by natural causes is not foreclosed by either intent or neglect.

Parents of stored IVF embryos, just as parents of living children, lose property rights if their conduct will result in the demise of the child.

Rich said...

Trump, Republican Lawmakers Forced to Defend IVF as GOP Abortion Woes Mount
https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/trump-republican-lawmakers-forced-to-defend-ivf-as-gop-abortion-woes-mount-55729386?mod=Searchresults_pos1&page=1

At the rate he's going by the general election Trump is going to be to the left of Biden on a bunch of issues.

@ Rusty: and yet sperm and their non-reproductive emission isn't a crime. .. at least not yet.

hombre said...

Christians will have to decide between taking a life or not having a family, that is nurturing a child. It's a tougher decision than for the baby killers who just deny that life begins at conception.

Mea Sententia said...

I believe, for religious and scientific reasons, that human life begins at conception. What that means for practices like IVF, I do not know. I'd need to acquire more knowledge to judge that matter.

What I do know is that saying a human life begins at conception and wanting to protect that life is not solely a religious position. There are secularists, atheists, who hold the same views on purely scientific, humanistic grounds.

So I get tired of this being presented as a purely religious problem. The NYTimes writers and readers cannot escape their religion vs. reason lens for interpreting things.

JK Brown said...

The lower court created the conflict by summary judgement. Perhaps the judge had a mission.

In each of its judgments, the trial court explained its view that “[t]he cryopreserved, in vitro embryos involved in this case do not fit within the definition of a ‘person'” or “‘child,'” and it therefore held that their loss could not give rise to a wrongful-death claim.

The trial court also concluded that the plaintiffs’ negligence and wantonness claims could not proceed. Specifically, the court reasoned that, to the extent those claims sought recovery for the value of embryonic children, the claims were barred by Alabama’s longstanding prohibition on the recovery of compensatory damages for loss of human life.


The judge declared the embryos were not "persons or "child" but then declared that tort damages were barred by the "longstanding prohibition on the recovery of compensatory damages for loss of human life".

So the embryos were human beings but not "persons". That doesn't seem to be a place we want to create with the 13th amendment and all.

mccullough said...

I’m not that familiar with IVF.

I didn’t know masturbation was the preferred technique.

I thought the wife just spit the semen in the cup.

AlbertAnonymous said...

I think it was Pope JP II who, in speaking of the Catholic Church’s teachings compared/contrasted the disapproved “birth control” and the disapproved “IVF” by speaking of them both as separating procreation from the human acts (husband and wife in the marital act). One is trying to have sex without procreating and the other is trying to procreate without the sex. Sometimes because they’ve been unsuccessful, sometimes because they’re not possible (I.e. two men or two women).

And both take God out of the process.

Rusty said...

@ Rusty: and yet sperm and their non-reproductive emission isn't a crime. .. at least not yet.
I never said it was, idiot.
Read for comprehension. Not for snarks.

Charlotte Allen said...


Is anybody REALLY anti-masturbation? Come on.

Me! Masturbation is creepy, as well as an act of desperation. But I'm willing to cut some slack to teen-age boys, because their brains haven't matured yet and their hormones are out of control.

Bender said...

I think most of us would instinctively regard the biological parents as owning their embryos

I think most of us have heard of the Thirteenth Amendment and even if they have not would instinctively oppose reducing human beings to chattel property that are capable of being owned by others.

No one has ownership of another human being. Not even parents of their children.

Darkisland said...

Found the robert Byrd clip that I had in mind. It is from 2000 (It says Byrd was 83 at the time)

https://youtu.be/sDjfTlxy7sA?si=1pfkXV3G83nIC73e&t=65

John Henry

Darkisland said...

Oops. That comment belonged elsewhere. Sorry

JOhn Henry

Readering said...

All those souls in destroyed embryos, spending eternity in Limbo. To think of it.

Sydney said...

“You can't do IVF without masturbation.…”
Yes, you can. They have special condoms that can be used to collect the sperm during intercourse.

Mark said...

All those souls in destroyed embryos, spending eternity in Limbo. To think of it.

Please don't add to the ignorance.

mikee said...

I've put up with religion trying to face reality all my life, from early childhood with anti-Vatican II Tridentine Latin Mass Roman Catholic parents who argued over translations of Latin to English, to having nun-led anti-drug programs at my parochial elementary school that explained to us 9 year olds that smoking marijuana led to madness, to explaining how Carbon dating works to Creationists and how the horizon works to Flat Earthers, to the sam antiabortion and proabortion BS coming from both sides going back as far as I can remember.

Belief systems are not amenable to rational analysis, discussion or refutation. They are inherently, tautologically, based on faith, unquestioning acceptance. There is no point asking what the gripes are between The Society of St. Pius and the Pope, or asking an anti-drug activist if legalization would decrease drug abuse. Discussion with Creationists and Flat Earthers leads only to running up against their disbelief of reality, and their faith in their own preferred narrative. Anti and Pro abortion sides only talk past each other, with refusal to listen or accept the valid points their opposition make, in favor of their own extreme-edge acceptances of what are purely beliefs.

TLDR: This IVF issue is as crazy as China's One Child policy enforcement via forced abortion was. A pox on both sides for making people's lives worse through inflexible, blind beliefs that run head-on into the wall of reality, on both sides.


Tiberian said...

Interesting.

1.Buddhism Bioethics


'…IVF has led to the destruction of embryos, which breaches the first precept of ‘Abstain from harming any living thing.’ The disposal of 'spare' embryos is considered immoral in Buddhist teachings, as the embryo has not given consent and has a karmic identity of a deceased individual.’

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2. Guide to Buddhism A To Z

'According to the Buddha, life begins at conception or soon after and so the destruction of fertilised eggs would probably be an infringement of the first Precept.'