February 18, 2019

"It’s the opposite of a prison. It is freedom. There’s no one in here but me. I can do whatever, whenever. Going outside is a prison. But this room — this room is clarity.”​

I'm reading "When 'Going Outside Is Prison': The World of American Hikikomori" (New York Magazine):
For years, hikikomori was thought to be a “culture-bound syndrome” — something so specifically Japanese that it could never appear beyond its borders. That concept has since fallen out of favor, and now one researcher named Alan Teo believes that something similar is cropping up in the States...

Mr. H. wore a leather jacket that reeked of cigarette smoke, had mangy hair, didn’t shower, and had long fingernails. “During the first and most severe year, he remained within a walk-in closet, ate only-ready-to-eat food, did not bathe, and urinated and defecated in jars and bottles,” Teo would later write in the International Journal of Social Psychiatry. “He passed the time surfing the internet and playing video games.”...  Mr. H. claimed his reclusiveness was based on something pretty simple: He just didn’t want to be a part of the world....

“We have a large number of people [in the United States] in their early 20s living in the basement bedroom,” Teo told me. “Often times it is younger men. Struggling with work. Struggling with launching. There is some element of still being stuck in an earlier developmental stage, like that of an adolescent, even though their physical age is that of an adult.”...

No matter what they call themselves, or why they decide to shut themselves away from the world, a generation’s worth of extreme shut-ins would potentially portend disaster for the American economy... What social safety net could the government realistically provide for people who haven’t gone outside — nevermind worked — for decades?
Isn't it in the Green New Deal? The universal basic income. It sounds like these people don't need much. Why not accept their difference and leave them alone?

176 comments:

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Isn't it in the Green New Deal? The universal basic income. It sounds like these people don't need much. Why not accept their difference and leave them alone?

I'm happy to accept their difference.
I'm happy to leave them alone.

I don't see why I should be asked to pay one penny for their lifestyle.

rcocean said...

The world comes to you, through the internet and Television. Video games and porn can provide adequate stimulation. I can understand why some young men would just give up and play games. Especially if you're an introvert. You no longer have to move to the deep woods - you can be a hermit in the middle of a big city.

rcocean said...

If you think these young men need to "cured" - the way is through giving them something to do that has meaning - National service?

chickelit said...

Your link to AOC's "Green New Deal" doesn't work. BTW, she didn't like your post on coconuts either.

Gahrie said...

Isn't it in the Green New Deal? The universal basic income. It sounds like these people don't need much. Why not accept their difference and leave them alone?

So your position is that people don't have a responsibility to be productive and support themselves? Providing them an income, or simply providing their basic needs is not charity or compassion, it is enabling their pathologies.

Just who is supposed to supply the resources to allow these people to free ride? What happens when there are more people free riding than working?

Amexpat said...

The BBC has a short film piece about this. Focusing on how rent-a-sister may help.
https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p06y5hmn/rent-a-sister-coaxing-japan-s-young-men-out-of-their-rooms

Ann Althouse said...

The link works for me.

chickelit said...

Just who is supposed to supply the resources to allow these people to free ride? What happens when there are more people free riding than working?

I made a delightful dinner last night for a middle aged Swedish couple. During dessert, the wife remarked that her generation was the "loser generation" because they had sacrificed so much to make both their parents comfortable and their children. That left them stuck in the middle with no one to care for them and with the clock ticking.

We traded immigration stories and I had the epiphany that the Swedes and other Scandies were the root source of the Upper Midwest American sensibility that I so admire. They brought it with.

tcrosse said...

What ever happened to Bartleby the Scrivener?

rhhardin said...

Rooms are pretty good these days if they have a flight simulator.

mockturtle said...
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mockturtle said...

I have two grandsons, both by different daughters and both in their late 20's. The older one moved to Florida last year to work for his father but came back last month to live [temporarily, I hope!] with my daughter and her husband. The younger one only just finally moved out of my daughter's basement, much to the relief, I'm sure, of his stepfather. He works for his father as well. When I was young, independence was something to be desired, not avoided. My daughters showed a little more reluctance to leave the nest. My parents in their early twenties, post WWII, were quite mature and ready to accept the responsibilities of a family. Things have definitely changed but I'm not sure why.

Fen said...

If you are going to demonize "toxic masculinity", its very unwise to chase these men back into their den.

Dr Helen and Jordan Petterson are making inroads to this group:

https://youtu.be/NX2ep5fCJZ8

But as GamerGate foreshadowed, if the SJWs attempt to corner and nag them, they will pull back a stump.

Leave the young single males alone. Keep radicalizing them and they will wake up and end you.

rhhardin said...

When Love with unconfinèd wings
Hovers within my Gates,
And my divine Althea brings
To whisper at the Grates;
When I lie tangled in her hair,
And fettered to her eye,
The Gods that wanton in the Air,
Know no such Liberty.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

Nothing a serious war or plague won’t cure. History corrects negative social trends, usually in the most catastrophic and painful ways imaginable. Creating positive social change requires courage, sacrifice, and self-discipline. We don’t do that anymore.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Just who is supposed to supply the resources to allow these people to free ride? What happens when there are more people free riding than working?

Questions you shall not ask. Never question the wisdom of AOC -- because blind faith, because mind crime, and because shut up. Pray the left do not beat down your door and arrest you.

Charlie Currie said...

I think reinstating the draft would help "launch" these adolescently minded young men into adulthood.

Time to rise and shine buttercup...let go of your cocks and grab your socks.

FullMoon said...

Brings to mind this funny but true anti MJ commercial.

Nothing Happens Marijuana Commercial

Ann Althouse said...

Clicking on my hikikomori tag and reading old posts on the subject, I see that the issue crystallized as a problem in need of solution because of something particular to Japan: the falling birth rate.

Why aren't young people getting out into the world where they'll pair up and form families and give us children?

It looks as though that's how this behavior got pathologized: The group had a need for people to do something and that was the reason to want to be in a position to change them. It would be curing them.

There have always been some human beings with this tendency, and sometimes they've been celebrated as saints.

Maybe it's something about the internet and video games. What if one of those old pillar saints had an iPad up there to play video games and read and comment on websites? Suddenly, he's a freeloader.

It seems to me that a person who stays in his room and is totally happy being with himself and burdened by anything else has a life preference (like a sexual preference) and we shouldn't impose conversion therapy.

You may say you don't want to give him money, but think of all the ways he saves us all money. He's not making trouble. We're not giving him social services to try to cure him. He's not committing crimes and needing to go to prison which would be far more expensive. He's got a tiny carbon footprint. He's not using our shared resources — roads, sidewalks, parks, and so on.

All he needs is a room, which could be anywhere. People at home during the day can contribute to the welfare of the neighborhood. We could try to think of the ways in which this no-job citizen benefits us. At the very least, there's the idea that nothing is a high standard. He's not hurting anyone.

JCA1 said...

I predict that if a “universal basic income” is ever enacted, it will take less than 24 hours for its advocates to then start complaining about the amount being insufficient to provide a fair and just standard of living.

MadisonMan said...

Why not accept their difference and leave them alone?

I Have the same reaction as Ignorance is Bliss: I'll leave them alone when they leave my wallet alone.

I give to charity to help hard-luck cases. I (and the money I give) don't need the extra step involved with the Govt. As they say, when the Govt is involved, before the money gets to its intended, it spends a couple of nights out on the town in DC, and suddenly there's not much left.

Gahrie said...

We could try to think of the ways in which this no-job citizen benefits us.

Yes we certainly could...but why would we want to? Is this the next bit of Leftwing insanity...there is a right to be a parasite on society?

SF said...

Regardless of moral issues, to function properly society needs to have a pretty good ratio of people who are producing stuff to people who are just consuming. If enough of the upcoming generation says "Screw it, why should I work?" and we as a society support that decision, there will be problems. Especially because the more people you ask the producers to support, the better chucking it all and just living off the dole will seem.

I mean, "From each according to his means, to each according to his needs" has proven fairly unworkable. If you make it "From each according to his whims, to each according to his whims" how can it possibly last?

Gahrie said...

He's not hurting anyone.

If he's living off of my labor he's hurting me.

SDaly said...

We could get a large institution to build a remote compound, with small rooms for these guys, they can live out their lives in solitude and support themselves by crafting tasty beers or liqueurs.

Fen said...

"I think reinstating the draft would help "launch" these adolescently minded young men into adulthood."

No draft. Our NCOs have more important things to do than babysit people who don't want to be there. Raad Catton's "A Stillness At Appomattox" on how bounty-jumpers destroyed the morale of the Northern Army. It would be a similar disaster.

They want to be left alone. I advise we do that.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Paying people to sit at home, jerk off, play video games, and defecate into jars?

Where do we sign up? That's the American Dream.

Come on Nancy-AOCredlipstick - right us a sweet bill that we can pass.

Big Mike said...

@Althouse, please learn to take “NO!” for an answer. Especially when it’s preceded by the word “Hell.”

Anonymous said...

"Luca thinks: 'I refuse to work for $8 at Taco Bell and be another’s lackey when I am my own god.'" Isn't this a clue that there's something seriously amiss in this guy's head? Is is really necessary to analyze the situation in more depth?

Ann Althouse said...

""Luca thinks: 'I refuse to work for $8 at Taco Bell and be another’s lackey when I am my own god.'" Isn't this a clue that there's something seriously amiss in this guy's head? Is is really necessary to analyze the situation in more depth?"

Is that a transcription of his thoughts? Was "god" left uncapitalized in his mind? The idea that we are each of us our own god if only we realize it and choose to live free could be quite humble. I need more information.

Ann Althouse said...

"If he's living off of my labor he's hurting me."

So are all the prisoners and inmates of mental institutions.

People in the military have to be paid and giving a tremendous amount of support... and they can screw things up and make things worse.

These self-incarcerators are pretty inoffensive. You don't know what you're being spared.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

"I'm too good to work" IS the Nancy Pelosi-OAC dream paradigm.

I hope our kids can take "I'm too good to work" classes in Jr High, High School and free college. That's how you MAGA.

jaydub said...

When they get hungry enough they'll come out of mom's basement.

Carol said...

it will take less than 24 hours for its advocates to then start complaining about the amount being insufficient to provide a fair and just standard of living.

"How can I support a family of four on this chump change?!"

Ignorance is Bliss said...

I refuse to work for $8 at Taco Bell and be another’s lackey when I am my own god.

Well alright then. If you are your own god, you surely have the power to conjure up your own food. Enjoy! /sarc

The real problem is that someone is enabling these people. Very often, their parents. What happens when then parents die, or have to sell the house and move into an assisted living facility? Will they end up on some form of government disability program?

mockturtle said...

SDaly suggests: We could get a large institution to build a remote compound, with small rooms for these guys

Maybe one of these would suffice: Japan's Capsule Hotels. I've seen these and they are actually smaller than they look in the photos, at least from the outside.

Fen said...

Why wouldn't the Independents want to join in sharing the comfort and enlightenment of true civilization?

https://youtu.be/g-alzyvTtVE

Ignorance is Bliss said...

So are all the prisoners and inmates of mental institutions.

Better than prison is too low a standard.

Choirboy626 said...

If young women were hurting themselves in growing numbers, perhaps being so self-harming as to begin cutting themselves in isolation or starving their bodies to death, not many people would advocate leaving them to wallow in their misery. There would be a worried outcry to help these suffering young women and an attempt to understand the forces that triggered the harm. Is it less concerning that the problem of extreme isolation and indolence affects mostly young men?

Fen said...

"You don't know what you're being spared."

An Army of Fens. Heh.

I can hit center mass at 500 yards. I can build IEDs in my sleep. I've been trained by the most lethal force in the world in MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain).

Don't meddle.






Ignorance is Bliss said...
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Ignorance is Bliss said...

Choirboy626 said...

Is it less concerning that the problem of extreme isolation and indolence affects mostly young men?

Yes.

cubanbob said...

Isn't it in the Green New Deal? The universal basic income. It sounds like these people don't need much. Why not accept their difference and leave them alone?"

If we are going to adopt some Communist premises at least lets try one that has some merit: universal basic job. No work, no eat.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

The old time "saints", hermits, mystics, recluses who chose to retreat from the world were generally supported by voluntary donations or church tithing.

These new recluses expect that everyone be "forced" through their taxes to get a free ride.

It is one thing to have your family indulge you and let you continue to be a giant leech. To force strangers to do the same is theft.

BUT...says AOC and dopes like her the government is providing the support. The government doesn't MAKE money, it takes it from other sources and primarily from involuntary taxes.

Nonapod said...

It's a very human behavior to seek paths of least resistance. Some percentage of human beings will seek out some minimal level of creature comfort that can be achieved for a minimal level of effort. Modern society allows these men to easily achieve the lower levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs (physiological and safety), while some simulacrum of the upper levels are fullfilled with internet access.

This is percieved as a problem in that they're assumed to be a drain on society. Although as we push closer and closer towards a post scarcity world such individuals will become less of a resource sink and simple be regarded as negligible inviables.

Lincolntf said...

"People in the military have to be paid and giving a tremendous amount of support... and they can screw things up and make things worse."-A.A.

Granted, but coming from an Academic, it's kind of rich.

(Note: My wife is a prof., I'm a veteran, so I mean this in good humor.) -Lincolntf

mockturtle said...

Actually, my grandsons aren't isolated [they have friends, girlfriends, jobs and social lives] but they just don't want the responsibility of being independent. Neither has gone to college yet. They're not interested, though both are highly intelligent and the money has always been there. Indolent is probably a good description but 'spoiled' also comes to mind.

Fen said...

"It is one thing to have your family indulge you and let you continue to be a giant leech. To force strangers to do the same is theft."

I agree as a hypothetical. But I'm unclear on how they are forcing strangers to pay for their lifestyle.

Maybe I skimmed past a sentence upthread and we're talking about two different groups?

cubanbob said...

Blogger Ann Althouse said...
"If he's living off of my labor he's hurting me."

So are all the prisoners and inmates of mental institutions."

These people are in State custody. The State took on the obligation to feed and house them. Unless you want to make death the automatic penalty for any crime. And leave all of the crazies on the street. Keeping prisoners in prison and keeping crazies to some degree off the streets is a public good and paid for by the public. Giving money to deadbeats who are capable of work via taxation isn't a public good. They are hurting those who pay taxes. The taxpayers receive no compensating value.

mockturtle said...

DBQ observes: The government doesn't MAKE money, it takes it from other sources and primarily from involuntary taxes.

AOC wants the government to just print as much money as is necessary to meet the Green New Deal goals. She belongs in a lunatic asylum, not Congress. Oh, wait...

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Fen: I agree as a hypothetical. But I'm unclear on how they are forcing strangers to pay for their lifestyle.

Maybe I skimmed past a sentence upthread and we're talking about two different groups?


I think we are talking about the proposal by the economic brain-trust AOC: money for those who are unwilling to work. Not collecting unemployment from a job, not temporarily laid off, or actually truly medically disabled but are those who just don't want to work and would rather be a rutabaga in Mommy's basement playing games and retreating from the world.

Join a Monastery or become a Nun or get your family to support you if you want to be a recluse.

For what it is worth. I think that there are way too many people claiming disability who are not actually disabled. Taking money from social security that they never paid into and to which they are fraudulently collecting. Milking the system.

SDaly said...

I rarely go to Drudge anymore, but his page right now is pretty well laid out. Themes seems to be "don't trust people of color" and "Joe Biden zeros in on Ivanka's chest."

Maillard Reactionary said...

They need a net, all right, just not a safety net.

Freeman Hunt said...

Enabling self-destructive behavior is not virtuous. If their parents kick them out, they will be cured. So why don't their parents do it?

Hagar said...

That the Government provide financial security for those unwilling to work does not preclude the Government from making them work in return for that security.

You need to check the small print and think about what it does or does not say before you jump at the bait!

n.n said...

The debate about the efficacy and properness of public and private smoothing functions continues.

buwaya said...

The type is not unknown, in its own pre-modern way. It manifested in all social circles. At the high end, famously, you had and still have Bertie Woosters. At the other end you had hobos, drifters and the like.

The modern difference comes from technology. Without computers television and video games this lot would have to go out. They would at least have to frequent the modern equivalent of the Drones Club, or the sorts of establishment Damon Runyon described.

n.n said...

It's the opposite of an honest characterization. It's a comfort zone exacerbated by smoothing functions. It's the Peter Pan and Roe syndrome.

mockturtle said...

Freeman Hunt asks: Enabling self-destructive behavior is not virtuous. If their parents kick them out, they will be cured. So why don't their parents do it?

My daughters insist it's because rent is prohibitively high in the PNW that they might end up homeless on the street. ;-) There's always an excuse, of course...I was hoping they would both go into the military and they both wanted to until they actually reached the age of eligibility. :-\

mockturtle said...

My older daughter who often visits Italy points out [to me] that, in Italy, it is not uncommon for boys to live 'at home' until well into their 30's. Like that makes it A-OK.

jaydub said...

There's also a movement called F.I.R.E (Financial Independence/Retire Early) that is taking off among the millennials. The goal seems to be to work the minimum number of years, live like a hermit while saving every penny possible, then retire after about 10 to 15 years or as soon as enough money has been amassed to support some type of a spartan lifestyle for the rest of their years. Yahoo Finance has articles on it if anyone is interested. The problem I see is that the participants won't contribute to social security or medicare for more than a decade or two (hence SS/medicare bankruptcy is accelerated), won't pay much income taxes or sales taxes because of their short working lives and bare bones existence (hence don't pay to support the infrastructure they use after they stop working, infrastructure that must still be maintained by others' taxes,) won't have enough saved to cover medical insurance or major medical expenses as they age (hence will probably wind up on the dole as their health deteriorates) and won't qualify for SS or medicare safety nets. True, these kids are not looking for much direct support from society early on, but neither are they contributing much to society or preparing for the unknown. Most of them have never lived through anything but a bull market and they seem to think they can draw 7 -10 percent off their minimal nest eggs for living expenses forever. Certainly, they're more responsible than the young people in the article above, but they are also selfish and are going to be a drain on society in their own way.

Original Mike said...

Blogger Hagar said..."That the Government provide financial security for those unwilling to work does not preclude the Government from making them work in return for that security."

I've always thought that the able-bodied who receive government assistance should be put to work doing something, even if it costs us more than just handing over the money to them. Payment for nothing in return is corrosive to society.

n.n said...
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Dust Bunny Queen said...

That the Government provide financial security for those unwilling to work does not preclude the Government from making them work in return for that security.

Why should the government or more accurately the taxpayers provide money or support of any kind for those who are unwilling to work. Can't work, possibly....don't effing want to work...starve you slug.

That is what Charity was and is for. The idea of a social safety net where the government "takes care" of people who are fit but unwilling is a new concept. Even in taking care of the UNfit that was not a feature of government in the past. (Although, as an act of human kindness ...publicly financed charity for the truly, really, very UNfit, it might be a moral thing to do as long as it was actually helping and not enabling)

When our ancestors arrived in the Americas, there was no government safety net. They relied on family, friends, churches, fraternal organizations even the Unions for help. You made it on your own or you didn't.

Now it is just a free ride provided by the rest of the population who actually works and pays taxes. Instead of freely given charity, it is now just robbery.

n.n said...

Today we impose conversion therapy on a mass scale and individually through indoctrination and medical corruption, perhaps as an experiment (e.g. progress, change for change sake), and with a notably dysfunctional orientation. To stoke diversity when politically profitable. To encourage men and women to target the other's jugular.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

I blame social security. It used to be, if you wanted a secure retirement, you had to raise your children to be productive citizens, so that they could take care of you in your old age. ( Likely in return for babysitting and other such productive activities. )

Now, you can raise deadbeats, and you will still be taken care of. Most likely, so will they.

Original Mike said...

AOC is out there saying the Amazon jobs weren't 'good enough' for her constituents. She and her Congress buddies are going to make better jobs.

Fen said...

DBQ: "I think we are talking about the proposal by the economic brain-trust AOC: money for those who are unwilling to work."

Oh. I think you know me well enough to assume I don't support that. Not only is it wrong in the ways you outlined, accepting a gov handout opens the door to gov interference.

I'm just saying if men have worked out a way to retreat from the world, we may encourage them to come out, but beyond that ws shoukd keep our noses out of their lifestyle.

Bob Boyd said...

Mr. H liked to think of his feces as "the genie".

Gahrie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yancey Ward said...

"Why not accept their difference and leave them alone?"

But will we be allowed to "leave them alone"? Leaving them alone implies that we have nothing to do with them, including supporting their lifestyles with public subsidies. Is that what you mean?

Yancey Ward said...

And I should have read the first comment.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I'm just saying if men have worked out a way to retreat from the world, we may encourage them to come out, but beyond that ws shoukd keep our noses out of their lifestyle.>

Yes, Fen. I think we are on the same page. If someone wants to be a recluse from the world, that is their business. We should definitely keep our noses out of their lifestyle. Let their parents, family, friends deal with it if they like. It isn't my business.

As long as their reclusive lifestyle isn't bothering or harming anyone, let it be. In fact, some reclusive people have ended up contributing much to society in the long run via art, literature, inventions.

What I object to is the idea that unwilling others (ME, you, taxpayers) are expected to subsidize a lifestyle of sloth, self indulgence.

They should be self supporting or rely on voluntary Charity like friends, family, Church and the like.

Gahrie said...

If he's living off of my labor he's hurting me.

So are all the prisoners and inmates of mental institutions.

People in the military have to be paid and giving a tremendous amount of support... and they can screw things up and make things worse.


Now you are comparing our military personnel to criminals and crazy people? You really are a relic of 1960's Leftism aren't you? Just for the record, I would force prisoners to do work to support themselves, and I definitely wouldn't pay for cable TV and weights given the choice.

These self-incarcerators are pretty inoffensive.

Freeriding off of the productive members of society is not inoffensive.

You don't know what you're being spared.

Apparently the privilege of supporting a bunch of freeloaders. No wonder you're not opposed to forcing men to pay child support to children that don't belong to them...apparently you want me to pay adult support to adults that don't belong to me either!

readering said...

The article does not blame alcohol and other drugs. Online gaming seems to be the biggest culprit.

Gahrie said...

I want to do nothing but travel around the world going to rock concerts...who's willing to pay me to do that?

Gahrie said...

Online gaming seems to be the biggest culprit.

Gaming is the symptom, not the disease.

mockturtle said...

Original Mike observes: Payment for nothing in return is corrosive to society.

In II Thessalonians 3:10, the Apostle Paul said, "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat."

mockturtle said...

I want to do nothing but travel around the world going to rock concerts...who's willing to pay me to do that?

I saw a sign somewhere, "Will golf for food".

effinayright said...

Gahrie said...
If he's living off of my labor he's hurting me.

So are all the prisoners and inmates of mental institutions.
**************

What bogosity. Prisoners are prisoners because society feels it MUST isolate them, punish them, or rehabilitate them, and they are not voluntarily in jail. Ditto institutionalized mental patients, who are there mostly because they pose violent risks to the general public.

Face it, Althouse: you're asking all of us to *reward* delusions, fantasies and deviance.

Not doin' it.


Skeptical Voter said...

England has a Jobseekers Allowance or JSA. Call it the dole--because that's what the Brits call it. You might be able to live on it if you were in somewhere other than London. There are certainly a lot of unemployed folks, both young and old in England.

It also has an Old Age Pensioners or OAP scheme. Both are forms of social insurance. Of course there is also a great deal of "council housing" i.e. municipally owned and operated apartment dwellings---or what we would call "project housing" here in the States.

Daniel Jackson said...

This is fascinating and, with a bit of reflection, cross cultural in some form of sociological satori: some people do not fit. Asian cultures have created a social niche for such people: sanyasins or sadhus. Eleventh century France evolved a monastic system to house, feed, and employ those of the upper classes with this malady. Yeshivot do a good job as well.

In modern France, with guaranteed minimum life wage and rend subsidies, such people are supported although at a substantial cost to the others. However, the financial support is not without consequences as the recipients do tend to be somewhat listless and seriously unmotivated. I have been racking my brain looking for a social science dimension to use for my ethnographic work in south France, and this one works very well.

Perhaps this would explain a large proportion of US homeless people: they just don't fit in for this very reason AND they do not have middle class families to support them. We could give them this NAME with lots of research money to study its treatment. Or. We could acknowledge what most traditional cultures have and say, "The Poor, y'all will always have."

steve uhr said...

fyi -- ads are back on the blog.

Fen said...

"If he's living off of my labor he's hurting me."

"So are all the prisoners and inmates of mental institutions."

That follows if your perspective is from the angle that large groups of single unemployed young males are (historically) a threat to their society.

But you have displayed an animus towards men in the past that makes me wary of your motive here. Do you compare them with inmates in the sense that you want to warehouse "toxic masculinity" ?

I think Freeman and DBQ are approaching this from the angle that its unhealthy for both the individual and for society.

Jordan Peterson (again) says the reason men are "bailing out" is because we have combined male dominance hierarchies with female dominance hierarchies, which sets up a "no win" scenario (bully or loser) for men, so they simply choose not to play.


https://youtu.be/LH16ympCb7Q

Its an interesting discussion with Camille Paglia. The comments from men also dovetail with the discussion here, explaining why they choose to retreat from society.

Megthered said...

We really need to bring back asylums. They would be packed.

Freeman Hunt said...

A tale played out over and over again: Mom is soft and over-anxious about her adult, male child. Child gives her all sorts of reasons that he can't launch, and she accepts them. Dad is less accepting. He finally forces his son to leave the house. Everyone is mad. Faced with the necessity of providing for himself, son blossoms. Everyone is happy. Not long after, son often gets first girlfriend. Now son is extremely happy. Everybody wins. Fin.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Stick the word "Universal" in front of a bad idea and it becomes a glorious idea.

FullMoon said...

A tale played out over and over again: Mom is soft and over-anxious about her adult, male child. Child gives her all sorts of reasons that he can't launch, and she accepts them. Dad is less accepting. He finally forces his son to leave the house. Everyone is mad. Faced with the necessity of providing for himself, son blossoms. Everyone is happy. Not long after, son often gets first girlfriend. Now son is extremely happy. Everybody wins. Fin.

What a lovely story.
OK, you kick your son out on Sunday. Where does he sleep that night? Where does he eat tomorrow? Does he take his clothes with him? Where he gonna put them? Where will he shower? Cell phone for communication? Who pays for that?
No job, so no car, no phone, no food, no place to sleep. How does he get a job?

Serious questions. How does he, or she survive the first two weeks?

Same questions for the illegal border swampers. Where do they eat and sleep the first day and night and week and month in America? Somebody must be feeding and sheltering the illegals while thousands of Americans are homeless on the streets.

bagoh20 said...

It's only a thing becuase it's tolerated and enabled. Stop making it a viable option and it will stop. This is what is wrong with a guaranteed income. It will create sloth and destroy otherwise productive people. It literally will ruin lives - millions of them. The question to ask is why? Why would anyone want to promote this? A: Power.

Freeman Hunt said...

"Where does he sleep that night? Where does he eat tomorrow? Does he take his clothes with him? Where he gonna put them? Where will he shower? Cell phone for communication? Who pays for that?"

As the deadline looms, the young man often starts making preparations. If he doesn't, he will have to sleep on a friend's couch, in a tent in a friend's yard, at a homeless shelter, or make some other arrangement. That's how adult life is supposed to be. If you do nothing, magical fairies do not appear to feed and clothe you. You can get a job without a phone. People do it in my town all the time. If someone is really worried, they can send the kid off with a prepaid phone and some money.

wwww said...

Kids who are raised to be independent, and taught independence skills by their parents, are generally good at launching into adulthood.

The exception are people with mental illness. "did not bathe, and urinated and defecated in jars and bottles,"

OK - what is this? Urinating into bottles? What? Does not bathe? This person doesn't mentally healthy. This isn't just playing too many video games. Some illnesses onset between ages of 18-early 20s and males are statistically more vulnerable to stuff like schizophrenia.

"Where do they eat and sleep the first day and night and week and month in America?"

Is this a real question? Churches, nuns, volunteers. But churches also help the homeless. My church puts on community dinners regularly for everyone in the community.

wwww said...

"My older daughter who often visits Italy points out [to me] that, in Italy, it is not uncommon for boys to live 'at home' until well into their 30's. Like that makes it A-OK."

In a lot of places, kids live at home until they are married. It's not unusual in many parts of Europe or Canada for daughters & sons to live at home while attending University. Common in India for children to live at home until marriage.

FullMoon said...

If someone is really worried, they can send the kid off with a prepaid phone and some money.

OK. So, how much money? Maybe a credit card that you pay for? Did you give him a car and pay for insurance? When he spends that money on a motel and fast food, how much more you gonna give him? When you gonna stop paying his way?

Might as well keep the bum at home and nag him into getting a job instead of kicking him out, which will accomplish not much in reality.

FullMoon said...


"Where do they eat and sleep the first day and night and week and month in America?"

Is this a real question? Churches, nuns, volunteers. But churches also help the homeless. My church puts on community dinners regularly for everyone in the community.

That explains the lack of people sleeping on the streets, they all sleeping in churches.

rcocean said...

I find the grumping (leeches! Need to get out and work!) about these young men hilarious.

If you're so concerned about "people living off the dole" then why don't you do something about the illegals pouring into the country and low-skilled workers immigrating here? I can assure that lots of them - or their kids - are going straight to welfare. They're not all like Nice Juan who moves your lawn for 50 cents.

Or if you don't like that, go look up how many people are NOT in the workforce - right now with 5% unemployment.

rcocean said...

Here's another thing. You can't invite the entire world through open borders AND have free medicare for all AND have a universal income.

Unless you somehow think money grows on trees and we have a never ending supply of those.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

In my experience, if you remember that your role is to be their parent, not their friend, then when the time comes, they will move out with all due haste.

rcocean said...

And People in the Military aren't sponges living off the public. If they are, so are University professors.

traditionalguy said...

This is a perfect case for Conversion Therapy. They need the work. And after a course of their treatments the weirdos will live happily ever after with children, grandchildren and family pets.

FullMoon said...

In a lot of places, kids live at home until they are married. It's not unusual in many parts of Europe or Canada for daughters & sons to live at home while attending University. Common in India for children to live at home until marriage.

In San Francisco Bay Area, not uncommon for kids to stay home into their twenties because of housing costs. Neighborhood streets full of cars because kids grow up and get a job but still cannot find affordable place to live.
Affordable housing located in areas where there are not enough jobs.

Henry said...

Isn't it in the Green New Deal?

There's some kind of carbon sequestration thing as well, but I can't quite work out the logic of it.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
pacwest said...

My first reaction to this type of thing is always "get a job!", but as we enter the robotics age social structures are going to change. How do we dive up goods and services?

n.n said...

Unless you somehow think money grows on trees

The Gray... Green New Deal is renewable as in credit, debt emissions.

It is self-evident and scientifically provable that resources are finitely available and accessible.

So, what is the limit or limits? Are the limits practical or political?

The Peter Pan and Roe syndrome is one. Dodo dynasties are another. Duck dynasties with immigration reform, too.

Freeman Hunt said...

"So, how much money? Maybe a credit card that you pay for? Did you give him a car and pay for insurance? When he spends that money on a motel and fast food, how much more you gonna give him? When you gonna stop paying his way?

"Might as well keep the bum at home and nag him into getting a job instead of kicking him out, which will accomplish not much in reality."

Zero to whatever. Why would you keep giving it to him? "This is your launch money. Go forth and provide for yourself."

It accomplishes a whole lot. I've seen it. Luxuriating in the comforts of home and putting up with nagging to do it is a world away, and a whole lot less motivating, than living in great discomfort and realizing that you have to do something to make yourself more comfortable.

n.n said...

but as we enter the robotics age social structures are going to change

That's a valid question, which is conventionally addressed through subsidies (e.g. welfare). That's easy. The hard question to answer is how do people remain productive and stave of lethargy, dysfunction, and eventually insanity. This was a principle limit to the so-called "Great Society", which still yields social, economic, and health consequences.

Robert Cook said...

"And People in the Military aren't sponges living off the public."

Sure they are. If they're not actively defending us from enemies, they military is just a parasite on the public's treasure. When was the last time they actually defended us from enemies? Certainly before I was born.

James Madison:

"Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied: and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals, engendered by both.No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."

And:

“A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty,” he argued. “The means of defense against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.”

And, so it is.

n.n said...

The Gray New Deal is the quick fix apparent, which has numerous appeal, and perhaps democratic too.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

If someone is really worried, they can send the kid off with a prepaid phone and some money.

Full Moon OK. So, how much money? Maybe a credit card that you pay for? Did you give him a car and pay for insurance? When he spends that money on a motel and fast food, how much more you gonna give him? When you gonna stop paying his way?

I don't believe we are talking about minor children or even slacker teenagers. These are full grown adults who refuse to engage with adulthood or face life. Not 18 yrs old but probably 25. A FULL GROWN ADULT.

If the kid hasn't been given any life skills like cooking, cleaning, budgeting or has never been introduced to work or responsibility, that is the parent's fault. Even so, you don't just throw them out on a 12 hour notice. As Freeman says....the deadline looms. It looms for months.

After months of talking about getting the F out......I would give 30 days. DEADLINE. Get up off of your ass and find a job. I'll even help you find a job. Find a friend who is willing to let you stay in their apartment. Be a roommate. Get a roommate. I'll give you a used car if you need one to get to work. Otherwise, if you are in a city use public transportation.

I might even be willing to help subsidize you for the first 6 months. Not by handing you money but putting some ...some.....toward your rent, groceries, utilities or even paying some towards car insurance. No cash in hand......ever. Get a pay as you go flip phone too. Any money I give you is conditional on knowing just how and where you are spending the money that you are earning. I'll help you make a budget and you'd damn well better stick to it.

Going out to eat all the time? Drinking a lot? Partying with your friends instead of working? Weed? Frivolous spending? Don't want to tell me? Fine....You are cut off. Tough shit.

No credit cards in my name. I worked too hard to get an 830 credit score to allow you to fuck it up for me. I'm not on the title of your car either.

If you need REAL help for a REAL emergency, we can be there for you IF you aren't a fuck up and are trying hard to be a responsible adult.

Make us proud. We know you can do it.

(and silently to myself...please just grow up and GTFO of my house so we can have our own lives for a change)

ALP said...

This appears to be largely a male phenomenon - so I scanned the article to look for info on the prevelence of divorce/absent father. This caught my eye:

"In the meantime, Luca survives off the disability checks his mother — also a “home-staying person” — receives."

No male in the house to model proper working behavior and a mother on government assistance. Seems to me the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, at least in this case.

I know a woman in her early 60's - twice divorced with one son that fits this description pretty closely. Dad took off when the kid was 6 months old. Both live in a small house she owns - I've rarely seen him outside of his room. He does have some friends but they tend to come to the house and hole up with him and play video games. He is a college dropout - was in a Digipen game developer program until he found it 'too hard' (I have a feeling lots of guys think working in game development is as fun as playing the games - but are crushed to find coding much harder than they think). He works odd jobs for a while - but once he saves enough spending money he quits and goes back to gaming in his room. Mom does some garden design/installation as a job. She's offered to pay him to do some of the manual labor involved, but begged off saying "Mom I'm too out of shape for this kind of work" (he's 27 I think).

Someone said it upthread: what happens to these people once the parents pass away and the house is sold? My acquiantence tells me she wants her son to take over her house when she passes, but doubts he can even rise to the challenge of maintaining a home handed to him on a silver platter.

FIDO said...

When Academics have destroyed virtue, self discipline, demonized capitalism and the family, what is there to work toward and aspire to?

Nothing. They will be content with a small numbers of self inflicted dopamine rushes per day and be content since they have no hope, no sense of self worth, or have anything left to aspire to.

So when self satisfied Academics who retire suddenly find that there are no workers to support their short work cycle, the unfortunate fact is they won't be self reflective enough to get the irony.

I am leaving Althouse out of this analysis because she'll be dead before this comes to fruition and plus, she wants to leave them alone not out of sense of post modernism, but that her ideal world is to have the entire world to enjoy and photograph without the problems of actually having to deal with other people.

So she naturally encourages this.

Fernandinande said...

The article's links don't seem to support the article's thesis:

Fewer NEET Youth in US as economy improves (graph label).

Key findings include:
"Unemployment of young graduates remains elevated today, but not because of something unique about the Great Recession and its aftermath that has affected young people in particular. Rather, it is high because young workers always experience disproportionate increases in unemployment during periods of labor market weakness—and the Great Recession and its aftermath is the longest, most severe period of economic weakness in more than seven decades.

Unemployment and underemployment rates among young graduates have improved but remain higher than before the recession began."


Meanwhile, anecdotal evidence

Cool! Anecdotes are so powerful that anything you want to be true can seem to be true!


There are, for instance, subreddits, such as r/hikikomori, where roughly 2,000 people gather to discuss anime and gaming, as well as ways to obtain money from the government without leaving their rooms.

Words not found at that link:
- anime
- gaming
- money
- government

FIDO said...

Meh. I have an older relative who never launched. Mom and Dad were wealthy, they had a good work ethic, and they were inwardly disgusted by his behavior...but he had a room and a check and they could do nothing but shrug their shoulders after all their guidance failed.

And he is obdurate in his indolence. It is striking a blow at 'the man'...even in his seventies.

Pretty pathetic but I enjoy work.

gadfly said...

“There’s no asshole boss in my room standing at my door going, ‘Wash those walls for six hours, then you can take 15 minute break by laying in your bed,’” he told me. “It’s the opposite of a prison. It is freedom. There’s no one in here but me. I can do whatever, whenever. Going outside is a prison. But this room — this room is clarity.”​

Lest we forget, this recent event chilled real prisoners in a real prison:

It was the end of January, and hundreds of inmates at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn had been locked in their cells after an electrical fire knocked out power in the building. There, it turned out, they would spend the coldest days of the winter in darkness, largely without heat and hot water.

When news of how the inmates were treated reached the world outside, the warden of the federal jail, Herman E. Quay, at first denied there was any problem outside a partial loss of power. “Inmate housing units have been minimally impacted,”

The blackout crisis [which lasted a week] was just the latest episode in a long history of neglect and brutality at the jail, one that has been documented in previous Justice Department reports. Investigators over the years have issued findings that suggest the jail is among the worst in the federal system, determining at different times that prisoners have been beaten, raped or held in inhumane conditions.


So American hikikomori need to be careful about asking for government freebies because government rentseekers will require complete control over their very existence.

Fernandinande said...

YouTube videos with names like Top 10 Ways to Make Money as a Hikikomori rack up comments,

site:youtube.com "Top 10 Ways to Make Money as a Hikikomori"

About 2 results

Fen said...

Cook: "If they're not actively defending us from enemies, they military is just a parasite on the public's treasure. When was the last time they actually defended us from enemies? Certainly before I was born."

You really have no idea what you are talking about. You think my Marines just "suddenly" become bad ass enough to destroy ISIS? No need for training? Do you even know what a training cycle is?

Are you ignorant of tbe fact tbat AT THIS VERY MOMENT the only reason you are free to post your nonsense is because the 31st MEU-SOC is circling tbe Pacific ocean, projecting American force to keep China or Russia from invading Alaska, Hawaii, and eventually California?

Do you not know that the free trade that provided your laptop is only possible because the United States Navy is constantly patrolling global shipping lanes and keeping them open?

Do you have any idea how many Airmen, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines DIE every montb in what you deem "parasitic peacetime" operations?

You are such a naive spoiled American. Robert Cook: "why do we need a police department when there is so little crime?" Idiot.

We need an Althouse meetup so I can print this out and fist it down your pathetic throat.

What an ignorant asshole.


mockturtle said...

There was a book some years ago [I didn't read it], the gist of which was that the professional man [a physician, I think] who wrote it warned his children early on that, when they turned 18 they would have to move out and fend for themselves. A little extreme, perhaps, but maybe if kids know that their tenancy is finite they might show a little preparation toward independence. Today I'd probably set that limit at 21 but make it clear you mean it.

tim in vermont said...

I am thankful every day that video games were not available when I was a boy.

mockturtle said...

Thank you Fen, for educating the Cookster. Anyone who thinks the military are 'parasites' doesn't know anyone in the military, nor does he have an inkling of understanding of the actual service they provide. But it could be because NPR, CNN and MSNBC don't provide the information.

tim in vermont said...

There was a story in my neighborhood about a dad who sawed a foot and a half off of the bench at the dinner table when a kid turned 18.

tim in vermont said...

Cook is still sore that we were able to counter Soviet expansion.

tim in vermont said...

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

Getting the work out of people has always been the problem.

Wa St Blogger said...

One doesn't turn into a hikikomori at age 18. The pattern begins much sooner. My kids live with an expectation that they will be responsible for their lives when they grow up. This starts with a number of responsibilities long before they get to 18. Expectations of chores in the house. Expectations of excellence in academics. NO computers or TVs in their rooms. Limited access to social media and hand-held devices.

I think they call this parenting. I have been blessed with good kids (can't claim genes, as they are all adopted.) I have only one who fights, tooth and nail, to avoid his responsibilities, and tries to sneak in more entertainment and less academics. It's a pain, but we maintain diligence and not LET him ruin his life. If a kid is not engaged in the world, it most likely started pre-adolescence and involved a significant lack of parenting throughout the teen years. If a young adult is not prepared for the world, then there were some parents failing to do the preparing.

I am not at all surprised that there are boys living as hikikomori. Given the chance to avoid work and responsibility, I am sure many people would succumb to the siren call. Plug their ears and teach them the joy of accomplishment.

iowan2 said...

Ignorance is Bliss said...
I blame social security. It used to be, if you wanted a secure retirement, you had to raise your children to be productive citizens, so that they could take care of you in your old age.


Great observation. I always go back to the beginning, when assessing the present.
As you correctly point out, your children were your retirement plan. Now put yourself in that culture. No retirement funding, no Social Security, no Medicare/medicaid. What would you do different?
Now, today we do have those things. Why would you not raise your children as if they were your guarantee of your truly, Golden Years.

traditionalguy said...

America will never be a Socialist country, says the teacher-in-chief in Miami. And neither will this Hemisphere be Socialist anymore. This is historic stuff.

FullMoon said...

Ignorance is Bliss said...
I blame social security. It used to be, if you wanted a secure retirement, you had to raise your children to be productive citizens, so that they could take care of you in your old age.

Great observation. I always go back to the beginning, when assessing the present.
As you correctly point out, your children were your retirement plan. Now put yourself in that culture. No retirement funding, no Social Security, no Medicare/medicaid. What would you do different?
Now, today we do have those things. Why would you not raise your children as if they were your guarantee of your truly, Golden Years


Worked pretty good for Brady Bunch, wALTONS, Partridge family.
So, you guys living living with your kids now, or waiting awhile yet?

Clyde said...

That was a kickass speech by President Trump in Miami. Fox News carried it live; MSNBC and CNN didn't, which didn't surprise me in the least. Bernie and AOC would have hated it, but then they only have academic acquaintance with socialism; the exiles in Trump's audience have practical, real-life experience with it, which was why they cheered him so loudly.

FullMoon said...

What's missing from this conversation is all the kiddies crying about the baby boomers ruining everything for them.

I always imagine them kinda like the subject of the post, living at home, playing video games, whining about Mom and Dad, or Grandma and Grandpa.

Boomer's kids range from what? mid thirties to early fifties? Grandchildren from teens to twenties?





Robert Cook said...

"Are you ignorant of tbe fact tbat AT THIS VERY MOMENT the only reason you are free to post your nonsense is because the 31st MEU-SOC is circling tbe Pacific ocean, projecting American force to keep China or Russia from invading Alaska, Hawaii, and eventually California?"

How do you know that? What makes you think China and Russia want to invade us? It's certainly useful to the Pentagon to have Americans believe such claims, as it allows them to justify budget increases every year, even though our military budget has long been greater that most of the world's military budgets combined. It's a scam to maintain the power and wealth of those who grow powerful and wealthy in the trade of weapons of death. Eisenhower warned us over half a century ago about the dangers of this military-industrial complex.

"Do you not know that the free trade that provided your laptop is only possible because the United States Navy is constantly patrolling global shipping lanes and keeping them open?"

Why is this the sole responsibility of the U.S.? Why don't our allies share in this commercial security detail? To the degree this is our sole responsibility, I'd guess we took it on to maintain U.S. trading advantage.

"Do you have any idea how many Airmen, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines DIE every montb in what you deem "parasitic peacetime" operations?"

How many? What operations? Why are we in any of the places we're in today? Why are they necessary? You say it's to protect us from our enemies. I say it's because we want to impose our geopolitical dominance over the world. (Last I heard, btw, China and Russia were both friends of the U.S. Heck, the U.S. keeps functioning every day because of the money the Chinese loan to us. If they were interested in our demise, they could stop loaning us money. But, that might hurt their finances, so they actually have an interest in keeping things peaceful between us.)

iowan2 said...

When I was growing up, the only adults living with their parents were considered special, mentally handicapped,or losers. You graduated and moved out, got a job and lived with a buddy, or went to collage.

Go back to 1900. Children were your providers to your golden years.

So you raised them to be responsible. You also raised them in the church, to set their moral compass. You made sure they would learn a trade, educated and ready to apprentice, College was limited to the idle rich. Real fiscal success rested in the choice of trade craft to excel at.

Today, parents have abdicated their responsibility to govt run schools. I refuse to blame the govt for my kid not knowing how to read and cipher. That's my responsibility.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

If Americans are going to have to pay more taxes, the money shouldn’t go toward supporting people who obviously have mental issues. Instead why not use that money to provide health care for everyone and then these basement or closet dwellers can get help and learn how to be productive people.

Robert Cook said...

"why do we need a police department when there is so little crime?"

We do need police to keep order, as there is always crime. But we do NOT need the militarized, black clad, jack-booted, smash-in-your-front-door-at-night-and-shoot-the-family-dog-and-assault-or-shoot-the-residents SWAT team police terror tactics that are becoming so commonplace in the U.S.

Caligula said...

"Just who is supposed to supply the resources to allow these people to free ride? What happens when there are more people free riding than working?"

AOC, etc.: "The rich."

These rich are, apparently, an inexhaustible resource. It's not as if they'll ever stop producing riches just because you keep taking their riches away, or even as though the might just move themselves (and/or their money) to a less hostile jurisdiction.

Umm, is it?

Inga...Allie Oop said...

If the mental illness has been treated already and there isn’t lasting improvement, they are eligible for SSDI and should be assisted in getting it.

Robert Cook said...

"Anyone who thinks the military are 'parasites' doesn't know anyone in the military...."

I'm not referring to individuals in the military; after all, they just need jobs. I'm talking about the military and its parasitic drain of our financial resources. If we slashed our War budget to just 25% of its present bloat, we'd still have more than enough to service any actual defense needs, while freeing up funds for other productive uses domestically.

(BTW, my childhood friend from 3rd grade was in the military for years, and remained as a civilian employee on the base where he had been stationed after retiring. He just retired from that job last year. He never had any false illusions about the "nobility" of the military and spoke bluntly about its blame-any-fuckups-on-the-next-lowest-ranked-sap-down-the-line bureaucratic culture.)

DavidD said...

JCA1 said...
I predict that if a “universal basic income” is ever enacted, it will take less than 24 hours for its advocates to then start complaining about the amount being insufficient to provide a fair and just standard of living.

...

Exactly. Oh, and that government-provided housing? Not good enough. The government-provided food? Not good enough, and not enough of it, either,

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

Cookie’s worldview reminds me of an anti-vaxxer. My kids don’t need the polio vaccine because I’ve never known anyone with polio!

iowan2 said...

and then these basement or closet dwellers can get help and learn how to be productive people.

Why would they seek help? They dont have any problems. Just ask them.

FullMoon said...

Go back to 1900. Children were your providers to your golden years.
Okey dokey, let's go back and take a look..

· Life expectancy in the USA, 1900-98: men and women: Year: M: F: 1900: 46.3: 48.3: 1901: 47.6: 50.6: 1902: 49.8: 53.4: 1903: 49.1: 52.0: 1904: 46.2: 49.1: 1905: 47.3 ...

YEAR M F
1900 46.3 48.3
1901 47.6 50.6
1902 49.8 53.4
1903 49.1 52.0

Original Mike said...

Hopefully we won't be testing Cookie's fantasies anytime soon.

FullMoon said...

AOC, etc.: "The rich."

These rich are, apparently, an inexhaustible resource. It's not as if they'll ever stop producing riches just because you keep taking their riches away, or even as though the might just move themselves (and/or their money) to a less hostile jurisdiction.

Umm, is it?


Simple,redefine rich.
You own a home and have a car? You are rich in the eyes of the homeless bum.
In SF BAy Area, there is talk of voluntary building sheds in homeowners backyards to allow homeless housing. Not sure if that is legal yet, but reality is there are backyard sheds being rented out already.
Within last decade, zoning laws and codes modified to allow converting garage into living space. Was illegal but not uncommon before that.

Henry said...

You guys might want to read what Robert Cook actually writes instead of the strawman you invent to get huffy.

Here's another one for you. Most cities in America have overstaffed fire departments. Thanks to building codes and safer power and heat technology, fires are simply far less prevalent than they used to be.

Henry said...

There's a whole lot of nurture projection going on here.

Grownup who lives at home and won't look for a job? There's a nurture element there.

Grownup who lives in a closet? Different animal.

buwaya said...

Re the freedom of navigation -
This happens because of a specific circumstance, that of naval hegemony.
The theory (and this is just part of it) is Alfred Thayer Mahans, and is hardly new.
Naval powers, in equality, will compete, and interdict trade as their policy requires. This is because free trade is a benefit of the commons.
The commons suffer without an "owner", de facto in this case.
And in the case of the global ocean, there can only be one.

Its no accident that safe global trade happened only with the establishment of the complete hegemony of the Royal Navy, later to be handed to the US Navy. Prior to that the sealanes were very risky in modern terms, periodically flooded with state-supported fleets of pirates, not very particular about the flags flown by potential victims. Wars happened often. Navies were often lucrative for their officers, who spent much of their time chasing "prizes".

Its telling that the ancient international marine insurance for m (the Lloyds SG form, one name for it) in use for at least 200 years, dealt with "men of war, enemies, arrests, restraints, and detainment of all kings, princes and people, of what nation, condition or quality soever."

buwaya said...

The Lloyds form was still in use when I was with AIG, but modified shortly after, removing all the "men of war" and detainments by kings and princes. Because, of course, these were no longer necessary. Because the seas were safe, due to the USN.

Original Mike said...

Blogger Henry said..."You guys might want to read what Robert Cook actually writes instead of the strawman you invent to get huffy."

I read it: "If we slashed our War budget to just 25% of its present bloat, we'd still have more than enough to service any actual defense needs..."

No strawman necessary.

mockturtle said...

We do need police to keep order, as there is always crime. But we do NOT need the militarized, black clad, jack-booted, smash-in-your-front-door-at-night-and-shoot-the-family-dog-and-assault-or-shoot-the-residents SWAT team police terror tactics that are becoming so commonplace in the U.S.

Totally agree with that, Cookie! There was a depressed old guy in a gated community we lived in who had threatened to shoot himself. Our street was closed off for most of the day while a SWAT team terrorized the neighborhood. Military-style armored vehicles and the whole bit. Turns out the guy had shot himself much earlier and was lying dead in his living room. I recently watched a SWAT team in action on TV and was horrified by their behavior. And the recent arrest of Roger Stone was an example of just how out of control our law enforcement can be.

Henry said...

I read it: "If we slashed our War budget to just 25% of its present bloat, we'd still have more than enough to service any actual defense needs..."

At that point the only country outspending us would be China.

Add our spending to Nato and Japan, and we still spend more than any alliance in the world.

The point is debatable, on many levels (for example, per Fen's response, should we be putting more money into training and less into high-tech weaponry?). It's just a lame response for the chorus line to wax offended.

buwaya said...

And naval supremacy is not just a matter of patrol boats. The whole point is that of an overwhelming force, able to destroy any challenger, even if it is never seen. It is Mahans concept of "the fleet in being", a potential that is well known but need never be visible, so mighty that it deters even an attempt to build a rival. The modern version does not look like it did in Mahans day, of squadrons of battleships in their anchorages, but the concept is identical.

The trouble comes, of course, when someone actually tries to build a rival. Then your freedom of navigation, among other things, becomes iffy.

I spent too many years reading the US Naval Institute "Proceedings", probably. Haven't looked at it in a long time.

Original Mike said...

"Add our spending to Nato and Japan, and we still spend more than any alliance in the world."

Great. Makes bad actors think twice (and if you don't think there are bad actors in the world, I can't help you).

"It's just a lame response for the chorus line to wax offended."

Who's offended?

mockturtle said...

I do have to agree that we have more to fear from Muslim immigrants than from Afghanistan. What we are [still] doing there is a mystery to me. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on that.

buwaya said...

What serves the US most is its Navy and its strategic weaponry. The US is strategically a maritime power, vis-a-vis all its potential rivals. The US needs to continue to control the global sea and sky. Else very bad things are likely to happen.

The Navy has recently gotten in a bad way, and no doubt there has been vast inefficiency. As to whether high tech or training are required - "and" is a useful word.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
madAsHell said...

fires are simply far less prevalent than they used to be.

How many times has my son rushed out of the fire station to pick up someone that can't get up? It's becoming more band-aids, and less fire.

Drago said...

buwaya: "The Navy has recently gotten in a bad way, and no doubt there has been vast inefficiency. As to whether high tech or training are required - "and" is a useful word."

Quite so, quite so.

No different than the results of the post-Vietnam/Carter/Zumwalt era, the results of the Clinton era (we used to have to cross-deck missiles and other key weapons systems because there weren't enough to provision more than 3 battle groups across the globe.

The first think W did was bump up the purchases so we didn't have to train with pop-guns and canoes.

BTW, we will always owe a debt of gratitude to John Lehman, appointed SecNav under Reagan. Although the penalty for Lehman was that he had to fire Rickover (yikes, Rickover had more people defending him in DC than even the LLR's defending dems, and that's sayin' somethin'!!), Lehman made it a point to bring back brown shoes and leather flight jackets for aviators.

Lehman and aviation garb, may Poseiden bless him.

Gahrie said...

The US is strategically a maritime power, vis-a-vis all its potential rivals

What we need to do is start focusing our attention on near Earth orbit. He who controls the orbitals controls the planet. I would really rather that be us.

We have the capability to do this already with off the shelf technology. We take the Sierra Nevada Dreamchaser, or the X-37, and we launch them on top of a Falcon-9. We put rail guns and KEW dispensers on them. If we build a wing of say twenty of them, we could probably have a couple constantly in orbit and a couple more on the pad ready to launch. Now we can get rid of the strategic triad completely and replace them with cheaper, cleaner KEWs. We can also get rid of our supercarriers, and a build a cruiser/small carrier force that would be more flexible and cheaper to operate. The Air Force gets rid of their strategic bombers, and concentrates on supporting the army. (It should probably go back under the Army again as the Marines are with the Navy)


buwaya said...

The process with my kids - they lived 4-5 in an apartment off-campus for 3-4 years. They graduated and did the same for a couple of years as they entered their professions, graduating to fewer roomates all the while, until they were solely on their own, or had aquired a girl. My daughter in LA still has a (female) roomate, though she is rather well paid.

We paid their rent and a stipend when they were in school, and shortly after. Their first real job resolved all money problems. We were lucky, maybe. Though well-spoken, obviously intelligent young people can usually get some kind of work quite easily. None ever moved back home. And they probably won't, though the SF house will be theirs, to split as they see fit.

Drago said...

Gahrie: "We can also get rid of our supercarriers, and a build a cruiser/small carrier force that would be more flexible and cheaper to operate."

OMG

Not another one of those "strategists"......

Spoken like a WW2 Army Air Corp General.

buwaya said...

Hah! I just found the 2001 Lloyds S.G., and its all still there! Look it up.
Reads like someone wrote it out with a quill pen, with an eye to the risky business of getting your cargo past Blackbeard.

rcocean said...

"I'm talking about the military and its parasitic drain of our financial resources."

The biggest parasites are liberal arts professors. Fire them all - and we wouldn't miss anything. I

FullMoon said...

Dust Bunny Queen said...

If someone is really worried, they can send the kid off with a prepaid phone and some money.


Full Moon OK. So, how much money? Maybe a credit card that you pay for? Did you give him a car and pay for insurance? When he spends that money on a motel and fast food, how much more you gonna give him? When you gonna stop paying his way?

I don't believe we are talking about minor children or even slacker teenagers. These are full grown adults who refuse to engage with adulthood or face life. Not 18 yrs old but probably 25. A FULL GROWN ADULT.

If the kid hasn't been given any life skills like cooking, cleaning, budgeting or has never been introduced to work or responsibility, that is the parent's fault. Even so, you don't just throw them out on a 12 hour notice. As Freeman says....the deadline looms. It looms for months.

After months of talking about getting the F out......I would give 30 days. DEADLINE. Get up off of your ass and find a job. I'll even help you find a job. Find a friend who is willing to let you stay in their apartment. Be a roommate. Get a roommate. I'll give you a used car if you need one to get to work. Otherwise, if you are in a city use public transportation.

I might even be willing to help subsidize you for the first 6 months. Not by handing you money but putting some ...some.....toward your rent, groceries, utilities or even paying some towards car insurance. No cash in hand......ever. Get a pay as you go flip phone too. Any money I give you is conditional on knowing just how and where you are spending the money that you are earning. I'll help you make a budget and you'd damn well better stick to it.

Going out to eat all the time? Drinking a lot? Partying with your friends instead of working? Weed? Frivolous spending? Don't want to tell me? Fine....You are cut off. Tough shit.

No credit cards in my name. I worked too hard to get an 830 credit score to allow you to fuck it up for me. I'm not on the title of your car either.

If you need REAL help for a REAL emergency, we can be there for you IF you aren't a fuck up and are trying hard to be a responsible adult.

Make us proud. We know you can do it.

(and silently to myself...please just grow up and GTFO of my house so we can have our own lives for a change)


2/18/19, 3:15 PM

OK, so not kicking them out and expecting them to grow up then. Basically moving them out and supporting them until they get on their feet. A WORLD of difference. May as well save money, keep them at home and nag 'em out of their complacency.

Wa St Blogger said...

I'm talking about the military and its parasitic drain of our financial resources.

I must not understand the combination of the terms "parasitic drain" I mean, I understand each word individually, but maybe in combination they mean something different.

Currently our military accounts for 3.1% of our GDP. Not very parasitic, and not very draining.

-In the 60's Military spending was 8-9% GDP
-In the 80's under Reagan and his warmongering budgets it was 6%
-By 2000 it dropped to 3%, spiked to 4.8 in 2010 (with the Peace Prize president in power).

It seems the parasite must be getting full because the trajectory is downward.

Maybe applying some Althousian logic I could argue that the cost of technical and life training given to a few million young people might be better than the alternative. Think about it. Life skills, discipline, vocational and other job training all to be had and they didn't incur $100,000 in debt on a worthless "studies" degree.

n.n said...

There is cause to evaluate cost and benefits of public smoothing functions as strict subsidies, but our choice should not be to leave people behind because it's a quick and convenient fix.

wildswan said...

If we seriously wanted them to come out we'd only need to cut off wifi. That would get them as far as Starbucks anyhow.

TestTube said...

Althouse writes:

It sounds like these people don't need much. Why not accept their difference and leave them alone?

Because they are an incredible resource. You probably don't understand, since you seem to be industrious, and your family seems to be industrious, but never ever ever underestimate the enormous potential of lazy people.

When layabouts are forced to fend for themselves, they will without fail develop ingenious methods to earn enough to keep body and soul together with the absolute minimum of effort expended. Many of them will actually provide great benefit to society in the process, not through any virtue on their part, but only because it is the easiest path.

Do you need proof? Look no farther than the sluggards who seem to want nothing more out of life than to hang around in your comments threads, pontificating, peevishly quarreling, and hurling insults at each other. Look how many hours are spent in idle sloth!

SOMEHOW your commentators seem to earn enough to allow indulgence in such a pointless activity. A surprising percentage actually seem to hold down some job even a useful job, if we are to believe the accounts they give (Inga a nurse, Michael K. a doctor, a variety of other high-level occupations). THAT is talent.

And you would short-circuit that by providing a living for us (for I must, to my everlasting shame, include myself among their number)? We are the segment of population LEAST in need of such accommodation! Let us earn our own living! It is the least we could do (because, if it were possible to do less, we would)

cubanbob said...

Fen Cook and Henry are the kind of guys who cancel their homeowners policies in the morning cause their homes didn't burn down the night before.

mockturtle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Oso Negro said...

@Mockturtle - re Afghanistan. I am going with save face - 70%; fight radical Islam - 20%; help the Afghan people - 10%.

Oso Negro said...

@Mockturtle - I did leave out protect the poppy fields. It is depressing to assign a percentage to that. (((

Lokeish Umak said...

it's just a matter of will

mockturtle said...

@Mockturtle - I did leave out protect the poppy fields. It is depressing to assign a percentage to that. (((

But, if you did, what would the percentage likely be? And who's getting rich from the enterprise?

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Levi Starks said...

Their “ doing nothing” existence rests on the foundation of others doing “something “.
They are by their inaction demanding to be treated like royalty, even if on a very low level.

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Henry said...

@cubanbob -- Don't buy whole life insurance. Buy term.

Henry said...

And it's not really fair to pull Fen into your pushback. I liked his emphasis on training, but he certainly wasn't advocating military spending cuts.