December 18, 2018

"So, then, how much suffering and death of nonhuman life would we be willing to countenance to save Shakespeare, our sciences and so forth?"

"Unless we believe there is such a profound moral gap between the status of human and nonhuman animals, whatever reasonable answer we come up with will be well surpassed by the harm and suffering we inflict upon animals. There is just too much torment wreaked upon too many animals and too certain a prospect that this is going to continue and probably increase; it would overwhelm anything we might place on the other side of the ledger.... One might ask here whether, given this view, it would also be a good thing for those of us who are currently here to end our lives in order to prevent further animal suffering. Although I do not have a final answer to this question, we should recognize that the case of future humans is very different from the case of currently existing humans. To demand of currently existing humans that they should end their lives would introduce significant suffering among those who have much to lose by dying...."

Writes philosophy professor Todd May in "Would Human Extinction Be a Tragedy?/Our species possesses inherent value, but we are devastating the earth and causing unimaginable animal suffering" in a NYT op-ed.

I know he's just playing with ideas and going to one of those "Modest Proposal" extremes, so I just want to call him out on one thing: Animals are cruel to each other. I'm willing to concede that humans are the worst and that our kind of cruelty is different because we can understand what we are doing and because we use our powers to amplify and extend cruelty. But without us, what would the other animals do to each other? There would be no humans around to perceive and bemoan it as cruelty, but it's already the case that the animals don't know we're feeling compassion for them.

84 comments:

Ann Althouse said...

I wrote this post while eating Nature's Rancher bacon.

Greg Hlatky said...

You first, pal.

Jupiter said...

"One might ask here whether, given this view, it would also be a good thing for those of us who are currently here to end our lives in order to prevent further animal suffering."

Yes, Professor. It would be an excellent thing. Get right on it!

n.n said...

Humans are capable of exploiting greater leverage over all things person, human, fauna, flora, and carbon-based.

JackWayne said...

This guy has no perspective. Very soon humans will be manufacturing meat in a factory. At that point, a lot of animals will lose value and they will disappear like the Dodo. He needs to contemplate that scenario!

Henry said...

I am highly sympathetic to a fatalistic view -- and to this view -- so I'm going to see what Mr. May has to say.

As for the glib response, I already know I'm going to die, so that's taken care of.

rehajm said...

Elephants suck. They'll eat the whole forest out from under you. Fewer trees to gobble CO2 and all the elephant methane. Not good for us or the other animals.

YoungHegelian said...

Deep Ecology is another one of those Lefty movements that refuses to say its name in public.

Probably, because saying it makes people exclaim "Holy Shit!" and head for the exits. Because of articles like the one in the NYT.

Wince said...

Althouse said...
I wrote this post while eating Nature's Rancher bacon.

Now we know Meade's pet name!

~ Gordon Pasha said...

I'll be impressed when the acolytes of this philosophy go to their car in the garage, make sure the door is closed, and start the motor. Until then.... not so much.

Fernandinande said...

Animals are cruel to each other.

Not really, depending on which definition of "cruel" you use.

I'm bothered by the way "factory farm" animals are raised, especially pigs and chickens, but it'd be fairly easy and not very expensive relative to overall costs, to improve those conditions quite a bit; there is no reason to ponder whether "existing humans should end their lives" to greatly improve the way animals are treated.

But without us, what would the other animals do to each other?

They wouldn't keep other animals in cages and restraints for their entire lives, never seeing sunlight and breathing their own uric acid fumes.

Bob Boyd said...

The answer of course is to eliminate those who can't produce the proper credentials.

Sebastian said...

"There would be no humans around to perceive and bemoan it as cruelty"

True. Is cruelty cruel when there's no one to call it cruel?

Only human consciousness makes moral argument possible.

You could almost call it the telos of evolution.

Though the Mays of the species are slightly maladaptive.

Seeing Red said...

He’s not playing with ideas. I’ve always grown up with that nonsense.

Him first. No one is stopping him.

Seeing Red said...

Progress!

whitney said...

Philosophy has really gone downhill.

tim maguire said...

It's hard to avoid that conclusion, professor, and it is, to my mind, a devastating blow to the essay--he clearly does not consider how animals treat each other. Or, having done away with humans, would he recommend doing away with lions, sharks, etc.? You seem to suggest not necessarily because humans are special in their cruelty. How are humans special?

I'm willing to concede that humans are the worst and that our kind of cruelty is different because we can understand what we are doing and because we use our powers to amplify and extend cruelty.

Sorry, the conclusion does not follow from the premises. So what if we can understand what we are doing? What's that got to do with anything? I sense some unexamined assumptions.

J. Farmer said...

@Fernandistein:

I'm bothered by the way "factory farm" animals are raised...

I think this is the most potent animal. I am not particularly bothered by raising and then slaughtering an animal to eat. But the conditions of factory farming are pretty dreadful. Though I am admittedly a complete hypocrite on the subject. I eat eggs, dairy, and meat products. But I decided a long time ago that if I was going to do it I was going to at least know the reality of where it all came from. I watched a huge amount of video on the subject. All extremely unpleasant and impossible to forget.

tim maguire said...

Fernandistein said...But without us, what would the other animals do to each other?

They wouldn't keep other animals in cages and restraints for their entire lives, never seeing sunlight and breathing their own uric acid fumes.


They would if it crossed their minds to do so.

And besides...

policraticus said...

Life is pain, Highness.

Anyone that says differently , is selling something.
-William Golding

robother said...

Despite my troubled conscience, I must go on for the sake of my gut bacteria! (When it comes to questions of survival, always trust your gut.)

Tyrone Slothrop said...

Humans are NOT the worst. Cruelty to animals among humans is recognized as criminal and aberrant. A cat absolutely doesn't give a shit how much pain it is causing to a mouse. Farmers love and care for the animals they raise for food, if only for economic reasons. Hunters strive for a clean kill, to end the prey's life with as little suffering as possible. Name a species other than homo sapiens that has an inkling of such behavior.

James K said...

All extremely unpleasant and impossible to forget.

The issue is whether we are willing to pay the price for, and accept the implications of, for better treatment of these animals. Food (other than perhaps vegan crap, and farming methods for grain crops will be under attack as well) becomes prohibitively expensive for the poorest among us, with the result that they will live shorter and less healthy lives. That's the tradeoff.

Yancey Ward said...

I remember reading a science fiction novel when I was around 10 or 11 years old where humanity goes off the deep end of environmentalism and mandates global extinction because it is the only way to avoid killing bacteria. Wish I could remember the title, but I can't. Tried googling it just now with different descriptions, but came up blank.

traditionalguy said...

Moby Dick was one mean whale. After seeing that movie, it's hard to think of the mean hunter-killer animals as needing my sympathy. But there are many semi-insane people who would give their lives to save animals and they hate me for not feeling the same way. But this dude wants to give my life to save the hunter-killers.

Sigivald said...

Unless we believe there is such a profound moral gap between the status of human and nonhuman animals

We do.

Pretty goddamn obviously, in fact, we all feel exactly that way, and for defensible reasons.

See how easy that is?

(This is why "Philosophy Professor" in media always means gross stupidity of the sort that requires a Doctorate to achieve.

Mainly because reasonable Philosophy Professors don't get in the papers.

Disclosure: I have a BA in Philosophy, so have seen them close up.)

Yancey Ward said...

And who would appreciate whether or not the world were a better place with humanity extinct?

In any case, the Earth will be a charred cinder in 5 billion years no matter what humans of today do.

Lucid-Ideas said...

Does it matter that virtually every domesticated animal in existence has essentially been genetically engineered (the natural way) by us to begin with? Some going on about 10,000 years or more? Moreover that the deal the chicken, cow, and pig have with us has - in all honestly - made these animals wildly successful in a genetic sense far beyond anything they could've done naturally.

At what point does an animal's destiny cease to be nature's responsibility, and instead become ours?

I'd say the line's been crossed. Long ago for that matter, and that fact changes the entire ethical basis for the conversation.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

There may be a moral argument for treating fauna better. Although, religious/moral arguments are in progressive disrepute. However, there is an ethical argument to treat fauna and perhaps flora better. It's a Pro-Choice and will accede to the politically congruent circumstances.

DAN said...

Good point, Lucid-Ideas. And the animals we've preserved and encouraged are the ones WE like the looks of, the cute ones. Or the taste of. Also, I've had four or five dogs over my lifetime. I'd make the case that the way to torture them would be to deprive them of my company and my approval. Non-dog people will scoff at this.

Ken B said...

Conclusion: there is a vast moral gap.

RK said...

I think we're getting better at the way we treat livestock. The increasing abundance of eggs from 'cage-free' chickens is one example. And when some yokel gets caught being cruel to animals, it's big news.

Of course, that's us. The shithole countries have a long way to go.

Greg Hlatky said...

Of course if we stopped eating flesh meat, we would not be freeing all those chickens, steers, lambs and pigs to live some idyllic life, we would be consigning them to non-existence. They have no great purpose beyond a food source.

CJinPA said...

It's interesting to see which provocative questions are permitted and which are prohibited in an increasingly censorious culture. The folks who decide such things hold true power. Pretty sure it's not the Koch brothers.

Leland said...

A cat absolutely doesn't give a shit how much pain it is causing to a mouse. 

I agree. Cats will torture a mouse for hours for entertainment value alone. If they had thumbs, I'd hate to think of what kind of world they would create.

As with any Malthusian article, I'm agree with Greg above. Start with you, and I might take you seriously.

DAN said...

A story: Years ago, a whale came up the Sacramento River. It was near the beginning of 24-hour cable news and the coverage was exhausting. The whale was eased back into the ocean. The hungry TV cameras and their handlers immediately found a new subject, a goat who'd made a mistake or two and jumped down onto a high outcropping. The helicopters circled as the sensitive ones plotted a way to rescue the goat. Until a manly Ranger with some sense said, on camera, "You know, there's a whole bunch of animals waiting for him to die so they can eat."

But my favorite of these cautions against jumping to sentimental conclusions... After the Valdez oil spill, groups cleaned up oil-slicked seals and birds. With the cameras going, they released a scrubbed seal, which of course they'd named, into the surf. Free! Grateful! It looked back at its human friends. And then a whale ate it. Grateful too.

Henry said...

1. It's about climate change. Argh. Misses the point. Everywhere humans have gone we've wiped out animals, usually starting with the apex predators, but almost always including anything easy to kill and eat and anything our domesticated animals don't get along with. Our domesticated animals survive as species and die in gigantic numbers as individual lives.
2. Would human extinction be a tragedy? That's a better question. It's not about climate change.
3. Contra Althouse's point, May states, "Animals kill other animals regularly, often in ways that we (although not they) would consider cruel. But there is no other creature in nature whose predatory behavior is remotely as deep or as widespread as [ours]." This is inarguable. You can quantify it multiple different ways.
4. May makes the point that a future humans who never exist don't feel suffering.* This point should also be applied to animals. Future unborn animals don't suffer either. Future unborn animals of extinct species don't suffer. Extinction has nothing to do with suffering. It is a different moral question. Some claim it to be a utilitarian question. Perhaps it is an aesthetic one.
5. Aesthetic questions and ethical questions don't have a common unit of measure.

*For example, before we go all dystopian, let's just suppose that capitalism makes raising children so expensive and not raising children so enjoyable that people stop having them.

sdharms said...

Anne, it is unbelievable the ridiculous things you write about.

YoungHegelian said...

@Sigivald,

Mainly because reasonable Philosophy Professors don't get in the papers.

True, dat.

Henry said...

If you want to compare the suffering humans cause to animals and the suffering animals cause to each other, you can use sums. It's pretty easy.

n.n said...

Planned Poultry.

robother said...

Henry: "But there is no other creature in nature whose predatory behavior is remotely as deep or as widespread as [ours]." This is inarguable. You can quantify it multiple different ways.

Whenever I hear someone say a proposition is inarguable, my BS detector goes off. Nature's creatures include a wide variety of predatory bacteria and arguably viruses. Their existence and propagation depend upon ecosystems of species that serve as hosts in ways that both advantage and exploit hosts in ways that resemble our relations with domesticated animals. Indeed, though I joked about it above, our own gut bacteria highjack our lives in ways that have lead researchers to label them the "Second Brain."
Each of them are creatures too, whose lives (though unseen by philosophers) are just as real as any multiple celled creature that hosts them.

Freeman Hunt said...

I once accidentally made a woman burst into tears talking about how animals were not nice.

Big Mike said...

In the long run, human extinction is inevitable.

Freeman Hunt said...

I wonder why one never hears about people who are vegetarians plus beef and dairy on the basis that cows are generally treated the best of all livestock.

Henry said...

@robother. Yeah viruses truly suck.

I should add some quantification about sentient animals because yes, those microscopic animals are freaking everywhere and get slaughtered with every nosewipe.

PM said...

Amazingly, Professor May fails to discuss how animals will learn to press the elevator buttons in all our empty buildings. An issue that will vex our betters for centuries.

Gahrie said...

Moreover that the deal the chicken, cow, and pig have with us has - in all honestly - made these animals wildly successful in a genetic sense far beyond anything they could've done naturally.

I have always maintained that if you truly desire to preserve a species, you need to come up with a tasty recipe for it. Pigs, cows and chickens will never go extinct.

Richard Dolan said...

"I just want to call him out on one thing: Animals are cruel to each other."

Yes, indeed. His argument is a gross example of non-intersectional species-ism, and no doubt several other bad isms as well, in that he applies concepts developed in the exclusively human context to our putative superiors. He needs a theory of ethical behavior that accepts as normative the cruelty (and cannibalism and rape and all similar observed behaviors) of non-human societies. Unless, of course, you entertain the unlikely thought that this earnest and well-meaning essay is a hoax.

tcrosse said...

Spare a thought for our Green brothers and sisters in the plant kingdom. think of the trees we kill and dismember, the vegetables we rip from the ground and cook, the fruits we pull from the trees. What bastards these mortals be!

Two-eyed Jack said...

From Wikipedia's entry on Todd May:

May is also the philosophical advisor to the NBC television show The Good Place.

So it's not as though we are getting the random musings of some blog commenter.

chuck said...

Will no one shed a tear for the lovely streptococci? And think the sad Saccharomyces cerevisiae, forced into vats where they slave to produce the beer so loved by humans.

robother said...

Individual queen bees and ants (and naked mole rats) are quite cruel to their fellow social sisters and brothers, controlling them with bio-agents deployed in their food. Memes may serve an analogous purpose in human social orders, empowering monarchs, brahmin castes and totalitarian dictators. For all we know, sowing philosophic despair may be Todd May's (and/or the Failing NYTimesmen')evolutionary strategy.

TestTube said...

There are thousands of talented, intelligent, witty writers who dream of a column in the New York Times. To have, just once, the New York Times subscriber base as their audience. Who would respect that audience. Who would give this one column the best that they could do -- and that due to their talents, that best would be very good indeed.

Yet this sort of drivel somehow worms its way in.

Am I jealous? Yes, I am. I suspect that there are others who are jealous as well -- many of whom, due to their writing talents, are far more justified in their jealousy.

Such a rare resource wasted!

Dude1394 said...

Have this idiot get back to me after watching herons/pelicans swallowing cute baby ducklings, rabbits, birds, snakes and fish alive. And while you are at it call for a ban on cats, dogs and windmills.

Lousy hypocrite.

TrespassersW said...

Yes, there is "a profound moral gap" between humans and animals.

Prove me wrong.

bagoh20 said...

The answer is for us to continue to advance our understanding and technology, while still caring about what we do. We are the only species that can and does protect one species from another, and eventually we will find a way to mostly protect them all from us. This is what will happen, and this is what should happen, becuase only this is possible, and only this advances the interests of all. Except for tics, mosquitoes and pathogens. Those fuckers must all die, and will.

tim in vermont said...

Every fish I catch, I catch in the act of trying to kill something or other.


bagoh20 said...

Our politics sucks, but not as bad as insect politics, lately, we are giving the flies a run for it though.

bagoh20 said...

'Every fish I catch, I catch in the act of trying to kill something or other."

That makes fishermen kinda like superheroes. Marvel, get on it.

Bilwick said...

I'd sacrifice most of humanity to preserve Pewdiepie's "Fist Me, Daddy."

wildswan said...

The way I look at it is this. In the non-sensory fringe looking at hens we get feelings of imminence, of familiarity, and of rightness, and a whole host of context dependent feelings of relation, all of which act as “low resolution” markers or guides, directing the flow of cognition. And then apply this and you find its leads to the conclusion: "Eat hsit and die. And home from a day of work at philospohy.

Anonymous said...

I know he's just playing with ideas and going to one of those "Modest Proposal" extremes...

A mildly more interesting question than his is "why is this hackneyed dorm room 'philosophy' exercise being given NYT op-ed space?"

And more interesting than that is how a philosophy professor managed to come up with this mess of an assertion:

"Unless we believe there is such a profound moral gap between the status of human and nonhuman animals, whatever reasonable answer we come up with will be well surpassed by the harm and suffering we inflict upon animals.

I guess if he tightened up his argument to meet basic standards of rigor and clarity, even the targeted audience of pseuds would recognize its vacuousness.

Big Mike said...

Back in the sixties, when we were questioning authority, and wearing our hair long, and not trusting anyone over thirty I read something very prescient. It went something like “if a society values bad philosophers over good plumbers, then neither their philosophy nor their pipes will hold water. Fifty years later, behold Todd May.

Maillard Reactionary said...

I agree with what sdharm said.

What a ying-yang. Lucky for him he is well-positioned in a society wealthy and orderly enough to support, if not entirely take seriously, his fatuous nonsense. Otherwise he might have to, you know, go out and catch animals to eat for food.

RMc said...

Would Human Extinction Be a Tragedy?

It would be for the humans...

gilbar said...

Bob Boyd said... The answer of course is to eliminate those who can't produce the proper credentials.

THINK of the CO2 that is produced by caravans and boatlifts
THINK of the CO2 that would be prevented from DESTROYING OUR WORLD if we eliminated ALL without proper credentials . Paul Ehrlich warned us that the earth is overpopulated, and that MASSIVE Dieoffs are just a few years away. Granted, he said that in the 1970's, but still.
In the interest of ALL THE POOR LITTLE ANIMALS, we need to get a Final Solution to the whole refugee problem

</sarc?

Robert Cook said...

"It would be for the humans...."

Yep, but not for the rest of the universe. Or this planet.

Robert Cook said...

"'Unless we believe there is such a profound moral gap between the status of human and nonhuman animals.'

"We do.

"Pretty goddamn obviously, in fact, we all feel exactly that way, and for defensible reasons."


That's not a "moral gap." That's self-interest.

MBunge said...

Combine this with Jonah Goldberg's recent missive on the economic realities of "The Big Bang Theory" and you start to wonder if Pol Pot's whole idea of forcibly relocating urban populations to work on collective farms might not be worth another try. There's a lot of people with college degrees and way too much time on their hands.

Mike

Assistant Village Idiot said...

Animals will of course have no further suffering once we are gone.

I am not trying to justify cruelty to animals, but let's keep things in perspective here.

Assistant Village Idiot said...

People here have touched on this well, but let me simplify. "Compared to what?" is always a good question.

D 2 said...

For those feeling in solid brotherhood with the philosophy professor, perhaps a stay in a maximum security prison (choose whatever country where you don't speak the language / you look different / poverty) might help one to see that there is beauty in this world because of humanity, and that evil can only destroy / tear down / make nothing out of the something we can see all around us. If we look for it. And if you still think it is to you to make a ledger of all the beauty vs the evil that we do, well, maybe spend a few more days.

Yes yes yes man is fallen. Got it. I think some Hebrew tribe wrote that thought down many many millennia ago, and they carried that truth around, while getting enslaved and slaughtered and genocided since like forever. Maybe Mr Misery can go find some new insight to riff off.

The difference between good pessimists and bad pessimists is that the first group knows that we are never going to be perfect, but each tribe/village/individual can keep trying to make it a little better, in their own way, even if we are all a little crooked. The second group thinks we should be damned, and some should pay for whatever sins we carry, and that they are most likely the wise ones to set up the checkpoints to decide who goes and who doesn't.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

Which side are you on?

The Godfather said...

And then, some time after the last human breathes her last, some creature (I'm betting on a racoon) will figure out how to pick up a sharp stick and use it as a weapon to become the top predator in its ecosystem, and it will all begin again.

But maybe racoons won't evolve philosophy professors, so there's that.

Warren Fahy said...

He's my villain, Dr. Thatcher Redmond, from my novel Fragment. The one some said was too absurd.... Bwa-ha-ha.

OldManRick said...

I always thought an interesting sci-fi story would be based on the idea that a conscious Gaia evolved humans because it got tired of getting hit by asteroids/large meteors. The human race was designed to create an asteroid/meteors defense system that protected "mother Gaia" from massive extinction events and the resulting disruption to the peaceful life of Gaia. Gaia can handle the little stuff that man does but couldn't handle the shit that the rest of the solar system throws at her.

Michael McNeil said...

Yep, but not for the rest of the universe. Or this planet.

Humans are the means by which the entire biosphere of earth can and will achieve liberation from this tiny dustmote of a planet and enter the wider world of living in the universe as a whole. “Dumb” life has no such capability, and without humans, life on earth will therefore eventually become extinct — as the planet becomes uninhabitable. As as result of humanity's help in this regard, contrariwise, the earthly biosphere (which is perhaps all the life that exists) can achieve immortality — or at least become as immortal as the universe itself.

Thus it would be a tragedy — an immense tragedy — for a) life on this planet, and b) indeed the universe itself, if humans were to disappear.

Lucien said...

Brings to mind the plot of the quasi-Clancy novel “Rainbow Six”.

Of course, the real Tom Clancy novel “Debt of Honor “ featured someone flying a 747 into the Capitol, but not enough people thought seriously about that.

TheDopeFromHope said...

You should read the comments to the article. NYT readers are sick, sick people. They hate humans, especially children, and are just miserable in their existence. They are hoping for human extinction, and soon! Maybe then higher functioning animals like dolphins will rule the planet.

What we need is a new Jim Jones (Al Gore would be perfect) and a nice, big vat of kool-aid.

Rusty said...

Let's put thisin a little perspective.
Even if not hunted half of the mourning dove population dies each year.
The author makes a moral equivilency argument that isn't there.

gerry said...

And then a whale ate it. Grateful too.

Mmmmmmmm. Freshly washed seal.

gerry said...

Somewhere, two bacteria are debating about whether viruses can think.