February 17, 2017

Well, affirmative action has been upheld by the Supreme Court, so maybe that filters down to people...

... as meaning that discrimination in favor of a historically-discriminated-against group never violates the Constitution.

At the University of Wisconsin-Madison — where I used to teach at the law school — the Associated Students of Madison voted for a resolution that said the university should give free tuition and housing to all black students, according to this AP article.

I'm not seeing the text of the resolution or enough detail about the debate, so I don't know if there was any consideration of whether the proposal violated the Equal Protection Clause. Did anyone even mention it? 

128 comments:

PB said...

Yeah, but how much reverse discrimination is allowed before it becomes plain-old discrimination again?

It's a fool's game. It sounds good but it doesn't produce the results projected for it, yet people persist. It was said best as "the soft bigotry of low expectations".

Bay Area Guy said...

Free stuff! Because......past slavery.

Known Unknown said...

So free tuition and housing to all black students at Madison?

That should cost about $11,000. #Wiskysowhite

Hagar said...

Short a zero.

John said...

So if my pretending to be a woman makes me a woman, for legal purposes, would pretending to be black make me black for legal purposes?

In other words, how will the university determine who is black and who is not?

Sounds like free tuition for everyone.

John Henry

mezzrow said...

Sounds like free tuition for everyone.

I suspect they'd be OK with that, too.

gspencer said...

"Did anyone even mention it [the Equal Prot. Clause]?"

Haven't you learned by now that law matters little, if at all (e.g., Milo and UCLA), to these leftist-minded people?

PB said...

How "black" do you have to be to win this jackpot? All black? Half-black, quarter-black? Will just a single drop of black blood do?

DanTheMan said...

So, Obama would get a 50% discount then, right?

DanTheMan said...

Since the Chinese who built the railroads were essentially slaves, do Asian kids get a free ride, too?

Bob Ellison said...

Affirmative Action. It gets tiring to explain.

If you assume that a citizen has suffered from racism and therefore deserves recompense, then finish the argument. You're black and I whipped you? Because I'm white?

AAction got traction as an identity-politics thing. If you're black, you deserve payback, and I have to pay it, because I'm white, even though I had nothing to do with slavery.

The concept of AAction had a little, tiny bit of sense to it for a while. If racism exists, and it's a problem for some people, then maybe we could cure the problem by giving those people an advantage that they didn't earn, because then others would learn from that.

But it doesn't work, and AAction is un-American, un-constitutional, and downright crappy in every respect.

jaydub said...

Virtue signaling with other people's money is the best virtue signaling.

Maybe the administration should accept the proposal with the caveat that white students' tuition, room and board will be increased to partially offset the lost revenue from African American students and that teaching and admin staff pay and benefits will be reduced by the percentage of African American students on campus to make up for the remainder. That way everyone can show their commitment social justice rather than just their involvement. Win for the AA students, win for the white students, win for the UW staff, win for the tax payers - so much winning everyone will get really tired of winning.

Ann Althouse said...

@PB The question of who is a member of the designated group already comes up in the context of admissions. But all the students who get in have gotten in, so who will complain? I assume that the great majority of white students want there to be a diverse student body and would like to see the percentage of black students be at least as much as in the general state population. I think the current percentage is only one third what you'd want it to be if you had that goal.

But the emotional dynamic might change if people are starkly aware of who's getting a completely free ride when they are piling up debt, especially if you start suspecting somebody is cheating or undeserving.

But that's not at stake when you vote for a resolution like this, which is only the abstract idea of doing something that the university would never do in this form. It's possible that the students' resolution would actually hurt the university if it got embroiled in litigation defending a more subtle policy that took account on the actual legal requirements.

Bob Ellison said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Ann Althouse said...

Let's try to discuss the specific resolution and not just go back to old arguments about why you don't approve of any affirmative action. Try to say something you wouldn't have said if this post had just said: Hey, everybody, let's talk about affirmative action again!

Ann Althouse said...

I'm deleting your comment, Bob Ellison at 8:11, because it's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about at 8:13. Please try again.

The proposal is free tuition and housing for all black students.

Bob Ellison said...

I've forgotten that post at 8:11. What's the argument here? We're talking about giving freebies to people on a race card?

Laslo Spatula said...

Remember those ads where you could 'adopt' a poor foreign child for only dollars a month?

Maybe we just think of this as 'adopting' black college students.

But they better well send cute crayon drawings to their sponsors.

Is Sally Struthers still alive?

I am Laslo.

Seeing Red said...

A few years aho there was an interesting article about the psychology of this and they spoke to a kid from Northwestern.

AA is not healthy for students because they don't really know if they earned entrance on merit.

Birkel said...

Thomas Sowell produced a wealth of information about how and why affirmative action does not work. And it's not just that it doesn't work but that it produces results opposite of those allegedly intended.

The students who voted for this measure are unaware of the research of a black economist who was dehumanized by those self-same people who wish to institute affirmative action programs. It is as if they were kept ignorant on purpose by those who would control them. And a majority of the students have allowed themselves to be controlled. In fact I believe they wish to be controlled.

MayBee said...

I assume that the great majority of white students want there to be a diverse student body and would like to see the percentage of black students be at least as much as in the general state population. I think the current percentage is only one third what you'd want it to be if you had that goal.

If the university knew it had to provide free tuition and room and board to all black students, do you think that would be incentive to accept more or fewer black students into the school?

Seeing Red said...

If you don't pay something, you become disenfranchised.

Everyone needs to pay something.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Obama wasn't descended from American slaves, and he got an affirmative action admit. Which historically oppressed group did he belong to?

Michael K said...

It's been pretty thoroughly proven over the years that giving blacks, or any other protected group, free stuff just increases the appetite.

That sort of reasoning is lost on white college students these days.

Personally, I think residential college is going away and not that far off.

Black students will next demand that grades be done away with, If they flunk out, they lose a lot of money that the free stuff cost.

Seeing Red said...

I swear, Burkel, Loki in The Avengers covered control for a modern audience in a nutshell.

dda6ga dda6ga said...

I just emailed my son to change his last kid's name to Roosevelt Anderson...everyone can play this game now...

Seeing Red said...

I also recall O'connor saying AA should start ending about 25 years in the future.


As the first female judge, she was a disappointment to me. She was more concerned about her image than some crucial rulings.




Seeing Red said...

To rule one way but suggest the law should be sunset....

Eleanor said...

I was one of the first women to attend a traditionally all- male college. Women got slightly better financial aid, got stuffed into half a floor in the guys dorm, and got harassed by both male students and the faculty for which there were no repercussions or sanctions. After a couple of years of the "woman experiment", they decided to recruit AA students. They got a free ride, their very own clubhouse, and a car at their disposal for when being a minority on campus became too stressful, and they needed to get away. Anyone who looked at them funny got a meeting with the Dean. The question about whether other students who are struggling to pay their way through school while others get a free ride because some of them may have had ancestors who were slaves over 150 years would be resentful is ludicrous. Of course, they'd be overjoyed. They might even throw a party with big signs saying how much they loved paying more money so people who aren't even means tested can go to college free.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

I'm fine with the idea of free tuition and housing for blacks at UW as long as it's paid for by tuition increases and pay/benefit cuts from Associated Students for Madison members. It's too easy to be generous with other peoples wallets. Let them put their money where their mouths are.

Owen said...

This topic can only be intelligently discussed if everybody first reads "Mismatch" by Stuart Taylor Jr. and Richard Sanders. Seriously, folks: they document the intellectual and moral corruption behind AA and (paraphrasing the subtitle of the book) "how affirmative action hurts the very students it purports to help." Psychologically AA leaves the kids wondering if they are good enough; often they are not well prepared and flounder, flunking out or settling for a major in Grievance Studies rather than electrical engineering. And they grow resentful and paranoid, and project their problems onto the System.

None of this is exactly news. IMHO the gift of free school will not improve matters for the recipients, and will certainly create resentment in the disfavored student body. Some white guy working two jobs and carrying six figures of debt to earn his BA is not going to appreciate being lectured by some minority harridan that he needs to check his white privilege.

DanTheMan said...

Poor white kids have to pay full price, but Obama's daughters get to go to UW for free, because they are "disadvantaged".

Yeah... that's fair.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Free makes it sound like there is no money involved. Call it 100% subsidized instead and taxpayers are more likely to see that it amounts to handing tens of thousands of dollars to people based solely on their race -- not need, not merit, but their race.
Hard to see how that squares with the 14th.

The Cracker Emcee said...

White Liberals never tire of condescending to Blacks and many Blacks lack the pride to refuse the fruits of that condescension. I'm looking at you, Barack.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Whenever the discussion here at Althouse turns to affirmative action I feel a need to remind people that w/o AA, in an admittance system based purely on SATs and high school grades, nearly every student will be East Asian or white.
In turn, this means that in American society, nearly every professional person you meet will be East Asian or white.
That's just the way it is. We have AA to stop that from happening.

Static Ping said...

From the article, the university is admitting what the ASM is requesting is illegal.

Being a student with no real power let's you demand whatever you want. It's kids pretending to be important. It is more adorable when when it is an eight-year-old in a princess dress.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Ann Althouse said...Let's try to discuss the specific resolution and not just go back to old arguments about why you don't approve of any affirmative action.

The resolution sounds like a great idea to me, but it's not nearly inclusive enough. Why should non-African American women pay full price, for instance? Why should a member of the LGBTQ community pay full price? That's preposterous.
Clearly there should be a scale, with the percent of "actual" tuition charged based on each person's individual identity groups. A foreign-born Hispanic transexual might pay 20%, while an Amerindian vegan daughter of two lesbians might pay 38%. A cisgender white man would pay something like 300-400%, of course, since somebody has to pay for all that "free" tuition.


Anyway it's pretty obvious that what's needed is a big fight over which historically-oppressed groups deserve which special handouts, and in which amounts/proportion to what other historically-oppressed groups (or, of course, to currently-oppressed groups and those who self-identify as oppressed).

Sebastian said...

"I don't know if there was any consideration of whether the proposal violated the Equal Protection Clause. Did anyone even mention it?" What difference, at this point, does it make? If a nineteenth-century due process clause can be used to prohibit states from limiting marriage to a man and a woman, anything goes.

Rick said...

How could this possibly violate the equal protection clause? Everyone knows that by definition the correct interpretation of the equal protection clause allows anything good leftists think is appropriate. If this were not the case how could virtually every university in America already have race preferences in admissions?

MadisonMan said...

Virtue Signaling by the ASM.

Lewis Wetzel said...

I think it would have to be free for everyone, or merit or some other non-racial discriminant used.
First two years are free. Most two year community colleges have abysmal two year graduation rates with the students paying for tuition and books. If the student finishes the first two years in two calendar years, the second two years are free.
I think that the effect of this would be to provide proportionately more Asians and whites than Hispanics and Blacks with college degrees, but what ya gonna do?

Achilles said...

Ann Althouse said...

"The proposal is free tuition and housing for all black students."

Who are the slaves that are forced to pay for it?

Otto said...

Definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

glenn said...


"I'm not seeing the text of the resolution or enough detail about the debate, so I don't know if there was any consideration of whether the proposal violated the Equal Protection Clause. Did anyone even mention it? "

Do you really think any of the proponents care about equal protection. They are looking for free stuff.

Bruce Hayden said...

As to the illegality - my memory is that the two SCOTUS University of Michigan cases split on the point of whether the use of race was explicit, or was, rather, just a factor. This would seem more extremes than the racial quotas that were rejected. Explicitly racial discrimination should face the strictest of scrutiny, and under that, the proposal should fail miserably. What is the compelling state need? And, aren't there any feasible less restrictive alternatives that might work better? Such as, for example, only giving black students free tuition if they really need it?

mockturtle said...

The idea is lunacy, of course. That you are even discussing it in a serious way shows that you are not yet free from the years of immersion in the UW culture.

William said...

Slavery, Jim Crow and ongoing racism have something to do with the malaise within the black community. To say that such things are the sole and exclusive cause of all black problems is itself a cause of many black problems......I've no objection to many forms of affirmative action. My spidey sense tells me, however, that any student accepted under such a program who later goes on to fail at his course work will blame racism for that failure.......A program meant to ameliorate racism may instead exacerbate it.

Peter said...

I went to school as an older student, having saved some cash and then maximized student loans. Part of what flowed from this was an attitude of, "I'm not about to blow my savings and go into debt just to get flunked out!" Without that motivation, might not at least some young people just decide it's a free party, figuring they'll have time to get serious later- until, perhaps, it's too late? Did they even consider the effect of personal financial investment on motivation, and the effect of motivation on graduation rates?

De-facto reparations and proportional admissions may sound like a great guilt-expiating idea, but have they thought it through? Even if it could be done, but wouldn't it have to be followed up with guaranteed proportional graduation rates? If not, isn't this a nasty "gift"- to admit someone on a full-ride scholarship, tell them they're there because they deserve it (admission and full ride) only to tell them, by flunking them out, that, no, really, it was all a big mistake?

Sort of like awarding someone "Queen for a Day" only to bust them back to lifetime domestic service.

Or, they could just guarantee proportional graduation, at the cost of seriously devaluing the UW degree.

Did anyone actually think this through, or is this driven purely by emotions plus the need to conform, lest one be accused of racism?

Birkel said...

Correct, Bruce Hayden. Race can be used as part of a holistic approach to admissions (the law school case) but race cannot, in effect, be determinative.

This is price discrimination. That might run afoul of some laws beyond the 14th Amendment.

Rick said...

Lewis Wetzel said...
Whenever the discussion here at Althouse turns to affirmative action I feel a need to remind people that w/o AA, in an admittance system based purely on SATs and high school grades, nearly every student will be East Asian or white. In turn, this means that in American society, nearly every professional person you meet will be East Asian or white.


This is nonsense. It may be largely true of someplace like MIT, but those who would go there under the current program would end up lower level schools. They wouldn't be excluded from higher education entirely. We're to believe state schools don't provide professionals? I'm looking at 50 of them right now.

This is a guy standing in an airplane at 10,000 feet claiming air travel is impossible because planes and people weigh too much.

Rick said...

Or, they could just guarantee proportional graduation, at the cost of seriously devaluing the UW degree.

Why do you think they developed grievance studies majors and push diversity offices to hire such graduates?

Jupiter said...

Ann Althouse said...
"I assume that the great majority of white students want there to be a diverse student body and would like to see the percentage of black students be at least as much as in the general state population."

Really? Do you assume most people who don't live in a black ghetto wish they did? "We found this wonderful little place with drug dealers on the corner and drive-by shootings all weekend. I got punched in the face and had my iPhone stolen before we even got out of the car! But it was so expensive! That, and the schools were too good for our kids. So, we ended up surrounded by white people. God, I hate living around other white people!"

Owen said...

PB @ 8:03: "How 'black' do you have to be to win this jackpot? All black? Half-black, quarter-black? Will just a single drop of black blood do?"

Ask Elizabeth Warren or Rachel Dolezal how that works.

Jupiter said...

Ann Althouse said...
"I assume that the great majority of white students want there to be a diverse student body and would like to see the percentage of black students be at least as much as in the general state population."

I suppose, if what really concerns you is getting good grades ...

AlbertAnonymous said...

Professor Althouse: "I assume that the great majority of white students want there to be a diverse student body and would like to see the percentage of black students be at least as much as in the general state population. I think the current percentage is only one third what you'd want it to be if you had that goal."

Professor, you taught this stuff, didn't you? Isn't this percentage goal the type of thing that was specifically rejected by Scotus? I thought we had to use vague terms no one can calculate, like "critical mass" so we'll never know when we hit nirvana and can stop discriminating on the basis of race.

I hope they report how much the alumni donations drop off because of this garbage.

Basil said...

If black folks get to go for free, then we need to pay the Indians to go, because they really got messed over by whitey.

How much should Wisconsin taxpayers pay for Senator Warren or her children or grandchildren to attend?

Birkel said...

@ Peter

As to your last paragraph: No. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Jupiter said...

Ann Althouse said...
"Try to say something you wouldn't have said if this post had just said: Hey, everybody, let's talk about affirmative action again!"

Hmmm... OK. Do you think the vote used a secret ballot?

Birkel said...

@ Basil

I accept your offer to get paid to attend school.

Abdul Abulbul Amir said...

There is no equal protection problem if it covers anyone that claims to be black.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Blogger Rick said..
This is nonsense. It may be largely true of someplace like MIT, but those who would go there under the current program would end up lower level schools.
Like UW?
Or a brickalying school?
No matter how you slice and dice it, Blacks end up on the bottom. If you set aside x number of seats to the people with the highest SAT scores from broken families, virtually all of them will go to Asians and whites. Ditto if you set aside X number of seats for people from broken homes, people from families where neither parent is college grad, people from low income families, etc.
This is why colleges fight so hard to get the courts to allow them to discriminate by race. There is no other metric that will give them the racial 'balance' they want.

Tim said...

Go for it. UW will be 95% "black" in short order.

Owen said...

Prof. Althouse: "I assume that the great majority of white students want there to be a diverse student body and would like to see the percentage of black students be at least as much as in the general state population."

I question that assumption. Maybe white students think that way but only if it costs them nothing. They got in, so they won't complain that others also got in; and (brainwashed by PC doctrine) they equate skin color and ethnicity and gender with real diversity. Which is inward and cannot be counted by the social engineers. So the students vote for this, it seems to cost them nothing and lets them bask in a sense of virtue.

But I think what kids really want is to be with their peers, especially those who are a bit better than they are, who can raise their game, inspire and teach by example. You don't get faster if you join a track team whose members are slower than you.

If the kids admitted on a race preference are generally less ready, they will not mix well. They will not be seen as intellectual peers or leaders. Everybody will know it and nobody will say it. That kind of hypocrisy, a brittle substrate for the official gooey virtue-signaling, is anathema to a healthy academic environment.

Of course my saying this is rude and my reference to the ideal case is laughable.


Mike Sylwester said...

The university's student government should stick to planning the Homecoming festivities -- electing the Homecoming king and queen and doing a bonfire.

If that gets accomplished OK, then the student government can also plan a spring prom.

Michael said...

Well, the resolution doesn't go nearly far enough. Not only should tuition and room and board be free but so should books and transportation to and from school as well as to educational-ish spring and fall break locations. Admissions should also be open to all African American having a desire to attend the lily white U of W at Madison regardless of white test scores and white testing norms.

Jupiter said...

Ann Althouse said...
"I'm not seeing the text of the resolution or enough detail about the debate, so I don't know if there was any consideration of whether the proposal violated the Equal Protection Clause. Did anyone even mention it?"

Well, let me fill you in. The debate went like this;

"I signal 15 virtue points."
"I signal 20 virtue points."
"I signal 35 virtue points!"
"Doesn't this proposal violate the Equal Protection Clause?"
"Kill the racist!"
"Kill the racist!"
"Kill the racist!"

chickelit said...

This sounds exactly like the sort of fearless shifting and whining by which alone the truth can be found in Madison these days.

Fernandinande said...

For some reason the article contains this:

Last spring, pictures of swastikas and Adolf Hitler were posted on a Jewish student's door,

A prank, the "victim" didn't care.

someone hurled racial slurs and spat at a black student in a dorm,

IIRC, the black students had started a fight...? Wouldn't turn down their stereos..?

and police arrested a black student during class for spray-painting anti-racist messages on campus buildings.

The article tried hard to make the vandal into a victim.

Minority students spent the semester pressuring administrators for change.

Wonderful wonderful change.

MaxedOutMama said...

I am pretty sure that I could win the case that this is legal under federal law, provided it were teamed with a selective admissions policy biased toward black students who want to major in STEM.

The reason I would win is that in effect, this would make UW shoot to the top of the list for black students around the country, and it would be by far the cheapest way to attract gifted black students. The weather at UW is a factor that hurts UW in competition for such students.

If affirmative action is legal, and it is, then it follows that due process considerations do not apply to these programs. The question is whether they are effective or not.

AlbertAnonymous said...

Did the resolution also say that all these new AA admittees would have their own separate dorms and facilities? I thought that used to be bad, but I've be reading a lot lately that I was wrong, and it's really a good thing. So confused.

Michael K said...

Psychologically AA leaves the kids wondering if they are good enough; often they are not well prepared and flounder, flunking out or settling for a major in Grievance Studies rather than electrical engineering. And they grow resentful and paranoid, and project their problems onto the System.

I've seen this with medical students who should be well into the role of superior achievers.

My foreign black medical students did not understand American blacks. They considered the system a wonderful opportunity while the American kids were still feeling oppressed.

I had one kid that I was really concerned that he might be schizophrenic. The students interview patients both at the County Hospital and the University Hospital. This kid was thrown out of a patient's room at the U hospital.

I had a talk with him. His parents were black activists. He did not know what to say to white people who had had never encountered.

I wrote him a script of what to say and what questions to ask in a medical history. He eventually did OK. He got along with kids his age, just not white adults.

The black college students want segregation.

Rick said...

Lewis Wetzel said...
Like UW?
Or a brickalying school?


I'm unclear: are you really this racist or do you think racism in service of leftist policy is no vice?

Fernandinande said...

DanTheMan said...
Since the Chinese who built the railroads were essentially slaves, do Asian kids get a free ride, too?


Exactly the opposite.

Affirmative action is based on bad test scores (ACT, SAT, classes). The racists pretend that the bad test scores are the result of being "historically-discriminated-against", which is not true.

Jupiter said...

Owen said...

"...they equate skin color and ethnicity and gender with real diversity. Which is inward and cannot be counted by the social engineers."

Oh, pack it in. "Real diversity" my rosy red one. Why can't you argue against bad ideas without pretending they are merely mistaken approaches to good ideas? There are situations in which "diversity" has value, but they mostly involve boxes of chocolates. Actual human societies are predicated upon homogeneity, and racial and cultural diversity stress them severely.

Birkel said...

MaxedOutMama:

Price discrimination.

The Drill SGT said...

I think their demands are understated.

I can read this (AP):

The resolution demands free access to the university for all black people, including former inmates.

as

Let all blacks, including illegals just off the boat from Nigeria to free everything, regardless of test scores, or grades, or life history, cause "Black"

Jupiter said...

Rick said...

"I'm unclear: are you really this racist or do you think racism in service of leftist policy is no vice?"

Yeah, you're unclear alright. You are aware, aren't you, that the average black IQ is 85? You knew that right? Oh, you don't believe it? Well, good, let's continue the discussion, but we'll use your facts. They do seem to be a lot more conducive to optimism.

mockturtle said...

If the kids admitted on a race preference are generally less ready, they will not mix well. They will not be seen as intellectual peers or leaders. Everybody will know it and nobody will say it. That kind of hypocrisy, a brittle substrate for the official gooey virtue-signaling, is anathema to a healthy academic environment.

This has been the problem all along with AA. Those minority students who genuinely merit their positions are devalued.

Rick said...

Jupiter said...You are aware, aren't you, that the average black IQ is 85?

Do you support admitting students based on racial group membership? It seems an odd position for someone on the right. If we adopted this practice we wouldn't be admitting any whites either so why would not also admitting blacks be a problem?

Presuming you don't actually advocate this why do you suppose this data point would be relevant?

Lewis Wetzel said...

Rick wrote:
"I'm unclear: are you really this racist or do you think racism in service of leftist policy is no vice?"
I'm unclear, Rick. What I've written is the truth. Talk to a college admittance person about it. They blame the poor Black SAT performance on white racism, or say that SATs are racist, but they don't deny that it is there. Or you can read some of the Supreme Court opinions on AA cases. This is common knowledge, Rick.

Roughcoat said...

Wouldn't the money for free college tuition for blacks be better spent on preparing them for college, i.e. on remedial education programs? In my admittedly limited experience most black college students were, in terms of intellectual development and straightforward education, woefully unprepared for college-level education. They could scarcely read and write, had no advanced math skills, no meaningful background in science, and tended to be emotionally unstable and troubled.

I'm sympathetic. I was a terrible student; I shouldn't have gone to college straight out of high school. I made a botch of my time in college. The difference is, I had a the tools but didn't use them. I was a screw-up. Black kids, on the other hand, didn't have the tools. They started, through no fault of their own, at a disadvantage.

Jupiter said...

Rick said...

"Presuming you don't actually advocate this why do you suppose this data point would be relevant?"

Eh, Rick, LW suggested that ability-based admissions would lead to a blacks attending brick-laying school. And you suggested in reply that he was a racist. Always a handy substitute for argument, no? So, I thought that data point was relevant.

mockturtle said...

One could even extrapolate the whole concept to include the 'every kid gets a trophy' practice. And 'no child left behind'. Why excel? The lowest common denominator is the standard.

An old high school friend was very bitter about AA and years later wrote to the local newspaper about it. She was black and had been an excellent student and saw the hiring and promotion of unqualified blacks as demeaning to her position. She complained that people would assume she was promoted because she was black rather than because she earned it.

Rick said...

Lewis Wetzel said...What I've written is the truth. They blame the poor Black SAT performance on white racism, or say that SATs are racist, but they don't deny that it is there.

Let's be clear: you didn't claim blacks as a group do less well on SATs. You claimed even blacks who perform well enough to get into MIT under the current program couldn't get into second rate state schools strictly on merit.

This is common knowledge, Rick.

Bullshit.

Owen said...

mockturtle: "This has been the problem all along with AA. Those minority students who genuinely merit their positions are devalued."

Thanks. That is the corollary to my point. AA is a counterfeit currency. Valuations become unstable (in both directions) and the result is less trust, less trade, and an unacknowkedged resort to unofficial mediums of exchange.

You might even say it produces a black market.

mockturtle said...

The bottom line to the entire AA philosophy is racist. White leftists believe that blacks are incapable of succeeding without their help. It's the old paternalistic slavery mentality. They even took credit for the Civil Rights Movement because, heaven knows, these colored folks can't manage it themselves.

Roughcoat said...

What good is an undergraduate liberal arts college education anyway? Nowadays earning a B.A. is akin to having a union card. Which is important, to be sure. Most job announcements stipulate that applicants must have a liberal arts B.A. of some sort. So, yes, a B.A. is important in that respect. And it's obviously necessary if you want to pursue your studies at the graduate level. But a stand-alone liberal arts degree, and the so-called education you received to get it, is worthless and a waste of time and money.

Rick said...

Jupiter said...
So, I thought that data point was relevant.


It isn't even according to your own data points. The IQ of applicants and admitted students is relevant. Follow:

According to the study below 67% of whites attend college (all levels). For simplicity assume white IQ average is 100 and attendance is strictly according to IQ. This means 17% of white attendees are below 100, which would correspond to somewhere in the low 90s IQ. If the black average is 85 somewhere between 40 and 45% of blacks would be of the same IQ range as whites attending college.

So in short your arguments are complete horseshit and it's obvious to anyone who considers the matter for more than two seconds.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/16/pf/college/college-enrollment-race/

rcocean said...

The law says no one can discriminated based on race. The SCOTUS then read that as "some people can be discriminated based on race".

That's why Constitutional law is Bullshit. They decide the cases on politics and then make up Constitutional bullshit to justify it.

rcocean said...

Black students today have been living under laws mandating equality and forbidding racial discrimination their entire lives. In fact, if you under 50, you've lived your entire life under Civil Rights laws and Affirmative action.

To say Blacks need special treatment in 2017 is bizarre.

Lewis Wetzel said...

You see the word "nearly" in there, Rick? It's called a qualifier.
Whenever the discussion here at Althouse turns to affirmative action I feel a need to remind people that w/o AA, in an admittance system based purely on SATs and high school grades, nearly every student will be East Asian or white.

rcocean said...

Look, lets just cut out the crap and institute quotas. I could live with that. 50% women. 12% black, 12% Hispanic, 5% Jewish, 6% Asian, etc.

Do the same for the Professors. Make colleges look like America.

Rick said...

Lewis Wetzel said...
You see the word "nearly" in there, Rick? It's called a qualifier.


Pro tip: upon reaching the point where your best argument remaining is that 40% is "nearly" zero you should stop writing and go surf for porn.

jimbino said...

Our Black, Brown and Red Amerikans should definitely be bused to all those national parks, forests, monuments and BLM lands they otherwise will never get a chance to see. Either that or sell off those expensive lands to Ted Turner and return the stolen wealth to our minorities. In contrast to our federal gummint, Ted Turner actually succeeds in raising buffalo.

Michael K said...

After reading "Rick's" comments I have no desire to join this thread.

Jupiter said...

Rick said...

"So in short your arguments are complete horseshit and it's obvious to anyone who considers the matter for more than two seconds."

Rick, suppose that all Asians had IQs of 175, and all white people had IQs of 174. Then in an IQ based system of admissions, 100% of Asians would be admitted before any white people.

I'm not sure where you are going wrong, but wrong is where you are going.

Rick said...

Jupiter,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. It was your position that the group average be used as the proxy for all group members. If you're saying your current hypothetical using this convention is not the real world you're arguing against yourself not me.

Jupiter said...

No, Rick, I am saying that you can't calculate the overlap of two distributions if all you know is their means. Which is what you purported to be doing. I gave a counterexample. But I think you misinterpreted LW's original comment anyway, so NM.

Sal said...

In fact, if you under 50, you've lived your entire life under Civil Rights laws and Affirmative action.

Blacks need Affirmative Action programs like this to compensate for 50 years of suffering condescension and low expectations.

Rick said...

Jupiter,

So let me understand:

The mean itself was sufficient to support your conclusion without evaluating the distribution intersect at all. But when the distribution patterns demonstrate something contrary you're suddenly the statistical expert concerned about whether the distribution patterns are different? Do you have any evidence the distributions are materially different?

This is an example that any evidence is sufficient to support what people want to believe while no evidence is sufficient to prove otherwise.

Jupiter said...

Suppose the Associated Students of Madison had conducted a secret ballot on their resolution. Then people would have been free to vote against it, because although it would be clear that someone had voted against it, no one would know who. Except. What if everyone voted against it?

Heatshield said...

Anyone who truly cares about disparate impact on blacks would focus on dramatic improvement in the K-12 system. Find a way to truly prepare the disadvantaged for college so that they do not need a gift admission. A poorly prepared student admitted based on virtue signaling is only set up to fail.

If they gain admission based on academic qualification but can't afford tuition, then means-based (not race based) scholarships should close the gap.

Tom said...

I had my genetics tested and I'm 0.3% Sub-Saharan African. Thanks for the free tuition!!

mockturtle said...

Why are the inmates running the asylum?

Tom said...

I wonder if a voluntary system could be created. For instance, I don't agree with the taxpayer financed free-ride. But I might agree to pay more tuition so someone less advantaged might have a chance to attend school.

I'd actually prefer this ala cart approach to taxes. I'd love if I could say I don't want to pay for executions or planned parenthood or the Iraq war - but I don't mind if others choose to finance those things via the government.

AllenS said...

Michael K said...
My foreign black medical students did not understand American blacks. They considered the system a wonderful opportunity while the American kids were still feeling oppressed.

You see the same thing in factories. I've often thought that the reason so many corporations want "open borders" is to hire foreign minorities so that they can skip "people from the hood".

n.n said...

Institutional [class] diversity reconstituted under Pro-Choice/character.

It could be worse. The Left is notorious for final solutions. Still, the denial of individual dignity, and debasement of human life, places us on a progressive slope.

mockturtle said...

Tom says: I'd love if I could say I don't want to pay for executions

It shouldn't be expensive. We could probably find a lot of volunteers.

mockturtle said...

My foreign black medical students did not understand American blacks. They considered the system a wonderful opportunity while the American kids were still feeling oppressed.

Michael, this is so true! I have worked with many foreign born scientists and physicians, many of whom were black. They never played the race card.

mockturtle said...

The fact is, it's not really about race at all. It's about culture.

Kevin said...

Althouse said: "I assume that the great majority of white students want there to be a diverse student body..."

The issue isn't the desire of those admitted, but discrimination against those who didn't.

In times of segregation the majority of white students would have preferred an all-white student body. The court didn't find that persuasive.

Kevin said...

Free college for black students + race is just a construct = Bernie Sanders' Plan

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Here is a great idea. Show preference for one group over the other based on nothing more than skin color or race. Then advantage one group and make the disadvantaged group pay for the advantaged group. Suppress the rights of the disadvantaged group and elevate the entitlements to the other group. All based on nothing more than race.

One group gets to be entitled and advantaged...just because. The other group is put down, disadvantaged....just because. Eventually the un-entitled group becomes aware of the complete and utter unfairness of giving advantages not for merit but because of the color of your skin. Resentment grow and seethes.

You want a race war? THIS is how you get a race war.

J. Farmer said...

@mockturtle:

The fact is, it's not really about race at all. It's about culture.

What does that mean?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

In turn, this means that in American society, nearly every professional person you meet will be East Asian or white.

And will be competent, qualified, capable and not likely to kill you if they happen to be your doctor.

That's just the way it is. We have AA to stop that from happening.

AA is why you look at your non white professional askance because you don't know if they are qualified or a product of being given their degree based on nothing more than their race instead of merit.

A better solution would be to put all that "free" (ha ha ha) money into early education so that more people of color will be able to compete on a level playing field.

MadTownGuy said...

It's not about education. It never was. It's about indoctrination.

n.n said...

THIS is how you get a race war.

This is how the Left constructs an argument to wage social justice. South Africa was not the first. Israel only barely escaped their influence. Others have been more and less fortunate targets of left-wing adventurism.

n.n said...

A better solution would be to put all that "free" (ha ha ha) money into early education so that more people of color will be able to compete on a level playing field.

A conservative American idea.

Insufficient profit and reduced leverage. No.

mockturtle said...

The fact is, it's not really about race at all. It's about culture.

What does that mean?


What it means is that most--not all--American blacks have grown up in a subculture that blames whites for their lack of prosperity, their high crime rates and their extraordinary proportion of out-of-wedlock births.

Bob Loblaw said...

I'm all for it, provided it's the white students at UW who make up the difference and not the taxpayers.

Otherwise this is just empty posturing.

Michael K said...

" I have worked with many foreign born scientists and physicians, many of whom were black. They never played the race card."

They think it is stupid and self defeating.

I examine kids applying to the US military,

The vast majority of these kids just want to make something of their lives.

In LA lots were Hispanic. In Arizona, where I am now, not many Hispanics. IN LA I would see kids who were African coming in as legal aliens joining an Army program that grants citizenship after a tour. I had some fun conversations with some of them.

Somebody on another thread was going on about IQ. What we see in the military is the right tail of the curve. The same in college.

Mean IQs only describe populations, not individuals.

One of Charles Murray's concerns in the "Bell Curve" was the higher birth rate among the inner city feral kids.

We can't talk about that because of Margaret Sanger.

damikesc said...

The proposal is free tuition and housing for all black students.

Seems utterly racist in any possible reading of it and it seems to violate Equal Protections eight ways from Sunday. It's immoral, to the highest, to reward one group for crimes not committed upon them (and, simultaneously, hurt another group who did not commit those crimes). If the supporters wish to unilaterally double their tuition to pay for a black student, feel free. But to demand others to do so is one of the least moral acts I've seen in my life.

Assuming all blacks are less privileged than all whites is pure insanity. My kids don't have the perks the Obama girls have.

I'd argue that this resolution is why student government is such a bad idea.

And it's why white ethnic identity is going to become a very real thing very soon. You cannot dump all problems on one group and expect them to take it in perpetuity. And when 40%+ of the population decides to vote, lockstep, for a group, it's going to cause major problems.

I assume that the great majority of white students want there to be a diverse student body and would like to see the percentage of black students be at least as much as in the general state population. I think the current percentage is only one third what you'd want it to be if you had that goal.

They'll say it because they have to say that. But, no, I doubt most if any actually give two shits. They love virtue signalling because they believe it won't HARM them to do so, so they can be "noble" and not have to sacrifice a thing.

Also, at the risk of being one of those guys, people don't appreciate or respect that which is given to them. Why do you think parents of private school students tend to be way more involved than parents of public school students? Because they are directly paying the costs out of their own pockets. With public school, it is "government money" and doesn't matter to them. Do they believe black students will excel if they are just GIVEN enrollment and tuition? It goes against basic human reality. We saw the garbage heap that the projects turned into.

openidname said...

If your ONLY problem with this proposal is that it violates the Equal Protection Clause, you need to find your way of of academia and into the real world . . .

R. Duke said...

I love it, free tuition and housing for blacks. Econ 101; price drops, demand rises. Price is free, demand soars. 95% of applicants are now black. Can't reject them, that would be discrimination. 90+ percent of the incoming class isn't paying. School goes out of business. End of experiment, bad luck.

SukieTawdry said...

Doesn't affirmative action already violate the Equal Protection Clause (Sandra Day O'Connor notwithstanding)? If the Court can find "compelling interests" as reason enough to set it aside, what kind of equal protection does it actually provide?

Madison (ASM) is composed of roughly 50 elected or appointed students, 50 student employees, 12 professional staff members, and 200 student appointees on committees that hold legal rights to recommend university policies, budgets, and candidates for UW employment. Cool, a legal right to recommend. Do you seriously think a possible violation of the Equal Protection Clause would have concerned this group?

Achilles said...

Michael K said...

Somebody on another thread was going on about IQ. What we see in the military is the right tail of the curve. The same in college.

Scientists think up a test where magically scientists score higher than everyone else. Color me dubious. Most of them couldn't even change a tire on their own.

Mean IQs only describe populations, not individuals.

Exactly.

Jupiter said...

Dust Bunny Queen said...

"A better solution would be to put all that "free" (ha ha ha) money into early education so that more people of color will be able to compete on a level playing field."

The US has been doing that for forty years. Results; nil. Achilles may think that your IQ is no more indicative than your astrological sign, but educational and professional outcomes argue otherwise. There is a reason that college admissions are (partially) based on SAT scores. Education works better on some people than it does on others. They like to pretend that SATs measure your "preparation". But the fact is, they track IQ very closely.

LW is correct. The choice is between continuing AA indefinitely, or watching blacks become essentially nonexistent at highly selective schools. Of course, there is a lot of genetic intermixture occurring, and that has an effect. You take a guy like Eric Holder, he looks about as "black" as I do. There was at least one cracker in that woodpile. And he may be a cheap race-hustler, but he isn't stupid. Same with Obama. If Americans were anywhere near as non-racist as they claim to be, races would disappear in a few generations.

PackerBronco said...

I'm all for having a checkbox on the tuition form saying:

"Please double my tuition so that I may pay for the tuition of a minority student who's ancestors were brutally oppressed by my ancestors."

No reason for other people to pay for their virtue signalling.