January 25, 2017

"President Trump reiterated his false claim that at least three million illegal immigrants cast ballots for Hillary Clinton..."

"... calling on Wednesday for an investigation into voter fraud, even though his own legal team has argued that no such fraud occurred," says the NYT.

I disapprove of the use of the phrase "false claim" in a news article. Trump deserves criticism if he is purporting to know things that he does not know, but the NYT is also asserting that it knows something it does not know. Trump's allegation could be true. How can you know for certain without a thorough investigation?

It would be much stronger for the NYT to say that Trump's statement is unsupported and merely a suspicion (a suspicion that supports his political interests).

The obvious reason for choosing to call it a false claim rather than an unsupported claim is that if we actually already know it's false, then no investigation is needed.

So the question is why would the NYT want to take that position? It makes me suspect that they are afraid something will turn up — if not 3 million illegal immigrants* voting, then other voting problems that are damaging to the Democratic Party.

I can see another reason to want to avoid an investigation: If there is an ongoing investigation, it will keep the question of illegal voting in the public eye. The NYT might want to say: There's no significant illegal voting, so let's just move on (or just talk about how dangerously delusional Trump is). But if there is an investigation, it prolongs our attention to the issue, and people's feelings about illegal voting are kept raw. There's no closure.

And there is resonance with other immigration issues. People hearing about the allegation and the investigation may feel stimulated to see the presence of illegal immigrants as a bigger problem than it actually is and they may increase their support for deportations and wall-building. Whatever the investigation eventually shows, those policies are going forward now and depend on public acceptance.

An investigation takes the pressure off Trump. We needn't dwell on whether he got it completely wrong or just alternative-factishly wrong. We can wait to see what the investigation says. And if the investigation says there is no illegal voting, Trump can take credit for finding that out for us (as he took credit for solving the mystery of whether Obama was born in the United States). The investigation, however, is likely to find at least some problems, and the focus can easily shift to those, causing us to forget about the precise allegation that got the investigation started. (I'm thinking about how the Whitewater land deal started Ken Starr's investigation into President Clinton but led to other things that completely distracted us from the question whether anything was corrupt about Whitewater.)
________________________

*I would normally avoid using the phrase "illegal immigrants," because I think some people find it offensive, but the NYT used it!

352 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 352 of 352
Mike Sylwester said...

The immigration was illegal, but the immigrant is a human being, and putting illegal in front of the word that represents the person seems to some to suggest that everything about the person is wrong. So it's disrespectful.

That argument is ludicrous.

Sammy Finkelman said...

It would be much stronger for the NYT to say that Trump's statement is unsupported and merely a suspicion (a suspicion that supports his political interests).

Unverified, what they call the Fusion GPS/Christopher Steele Russian dossier on Trump (about Trump's supposed investments in Russian entities, and what Trump supposedly did to the bed that Obama had slept it, and the supposed meeting between a Trump lawyer and a Russian official in Prague about hacking the Democrats)

It's faiurly safe I think to call what Trump said nonsense. NO way do the numbers reach the level he proposes.

How the NYT can be sure it is a lie and not a delusion or misinformation aides told him, remains to be explained. In the oonvestigation he oroimised tosay he's already looking at other things than ineligible voters.

Robert Cook said...

"Uh, Dude, Trump doesn't need a "stratagem" to "compel an investigation." He's the President. All he needs to do is instruct the DOJ to do so."

I was responding to someone who suggested Trump's assertion of 3 million illegal voters was a means to arouse interest in or spark impetus for such an investigation.

"Which he as already said he is going to do."

Trump sez lots 'o shit he doesn't mean or won't do. He's a fraudster, a flim-flim man. That's how he conned you guys & gals into voting for him--those of you here that did, that is.

Robert Cook said...

"Look everybody, Robert Cook said something true."

I always do.

MacMacConnell said...

There are how many legal non-US citizen immigrants residing in the USA, 20+ million? The Harvard study estimated 10% voted in Presidential elections, that number dropped to 6% during the midterms. The study used legal immigrants for obvious reasons and the questionnaires were anonymous.

This will be fun to watch. I believe part of the motor voter law requires states to purge illegal registrations, this failure of states like California will be the legal right for the new AG to investigate.

Birkel said...

And now Robert Cook has said something untrue.
My topsy-turvy world has righted itself.

Sammy Finkelman said...

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/28/upshot/serious-voter-fraud-um-no.html

The study is a panel survey, so many people had been interviewed in previous years. A comparison of their previous answers can help give a sense of just how often people might make a mistake. In 2012, 20 of the self-described noncitizens surveyed reported that they had been citizens when they took the survey in 2010. But that’s unlikely — very few people lose their citizenship.

What’s more, a similar number, 36 people, said they were noncitizens in 2010 but citizens in 2012. That’s possible — since people can obtain citizenship — but the finding is well above the rate of naturalization.

This phenomenon could explain all of the noncitizen voting in the congressional election study. Here’s the clincher: There were zero voters among the respondents who indicated that they were noncitizens in both 2010 and 2012.


This is only a partial explanation.

Birkel said...

Sammy Finkleman:
Did you read the URL of your own link?
It asks "serious voter fraud, um, no" forcing a reader to believe the New York Times admits there is voter fraud.

Mine is a complete explanation.

Anonymous said...

I'd agree. There is an unhealthy grapevine conversation between the media and the DNC to label anything Trump says as a lie. When it is really just Trump's opinion. The error lies on the DNC side. They should be forced to factualize their lies.

Sammy Finkelman said...

MayBee said...

=== the California Secretary of State and find out what they do to....make sure people who register are registering legally. ===

Probably nothing beyond the making them sign, under penalty of perjury, that they are a U.S. citizen, live at such and such an address and are telling the truth. Maybe they take down some other information.

=== It would be incredibly easy to register illegally in California and to vote illegally in California. If you knew your whole life depended on voting and you could vote easily, why would you not do it? ===

But your whole life doesn't depend on it, and voting illegally could get someone in trouble.

1/25/17, 11:28 AM

Bay Area Guy said...

Ahh, shining some light on the glorious state of California! I love it.

Facts:

1. Up until 1992, Cal voted for a GOP Prez in nearly every election since FDR (except 1964).
2. From 1982 to 1998, Cal had 4 consecutive GOP governors (Deukmejian twice; Pete Wilson twice).

3. In general, Northern California voted Dem; Southern Cal (Orange County, San Diego, Riverside, San Bernadino) voted GOP.

So, what changed, one might ask?

The demographics.

Cal population 1980: 24 Million
Cal population 2014: 40 Million

So, who were these 16 Million new Californians?

Well, a mostly a large group of US citizens looking for greener pastures on the West Coast, with a large chunk of illegals. According to Pew Research, about 2.4 Million Illegals live in California (noted above by commentators).

So, how do you prevent 2.4 Million illegals from voting, when they have a right to public schooling, Medical benefits, welfare benefits, and now drivers licenses?

Simple answer -- you don't.

The key is to get them Registered, but never audit the registrations. Once an illegal is registered, voila, he is permitted to vote. Registration is very, very easy -- you fill out a form, and swear that you are a citizen. Nobody ever checks.

Then, various community organizers can gather up reams of absentee ballots of improperly registered folks, to create a lotta votes.

That's how the Dems do it in California. That's what helped transform California from Ronnie Reagan Red to Billy Clinton Blue.

That's what all this porous border policy at the federal level was about too -- to try to turn Texas blue a la California.

Thankfully, a few smart folks and DJT have thwarted this plan. God Bless Texas!








Anonymous said...

Does fraud ever occur? If it does wouldn't voter fraud be very appealing to a fraudster then? It doesn't register because the standards are so high and the tracking so weak that common fraud is untouchable.

Big Mike said...

And the first person discovered who is registered to vote in two different states is ...

Senior Trump advisor Steve Bannon!

That's according to the Guardian, so take with a grain of salt. But it's almost too good to check.

Sammy Finkelman said...

traditionalguy said...1/25/17, 1:15 PM

An unalienable right is for Americans.

An unalienable right, is, like it sounds, a right that also belongs to aliens. It says in the Declaration of Independence "All men are created equal" not "all Americans are created equal"

You'd be better off arguing all men are created equal, but some are more equal than others.


Birkel said...

Sammy Finkleman: "...and voting illegally could get someone in trouble."

As opposed to, say, illegally entering a country which is by definition illegal and can get somebody in trouble. But I can totally see how a population that has committed one crime would never commit a second crime. Because that might get them in trouble.

Bro, do you even logic?

Birkel said...

In which Sammy Finkelman argues that the Creator has endowed all Men with rights.
God approves your endorsement, Sammy.
Women disapprove.

John henry said...

I agree about "illegal immigrant" I find it offensive to legal immigrants and citizens. Also somewhat oxymoronic since I think the word "immigrant" implies legality.

The correct term is "Illegal alien" and that is the term we should be using.

An alien is defined as a person present in a country where they are not a citizen. If I visit Toronto, I am an alien in Canada.

If someone comes from Mexico on a green card, they are still an alien in the US. If they want to lose the alien appellation, they need to become citizens.

And as someone else pointed out, President Trump never used the term with reference to voting. He talked about illegal voting. That could include voting by illegal aliens but doesn't need to.

John Henry

Derve Swanson said...

The immigration was illegal, but the immigrant is a human being, and putting illegal in front of the word that represents the person seems to some to suggest that everything about the person is wrong. So it's disrespectful.

That argument is ludicrous.
------------

You could make the same argument about labeling someone a criminal. They're still a person too! How disrespectful!!

Words matter, proffy.
You'll get used to it, now that you're out of your tower living in the Real World.

Sean Duffy, eh? What a cutie...

Sammy Finkelman said...

RE: Voter ID

The modern ones say nothing about citizenship.

The old one was tghat you had to present either a birth certificate or citizenship papers to reister, and then you got a voter card.

I Callahan said...

But, but, but, isn't being registered in two different states voter fraud?!

No. But voting in two different states is voter fraud.

Next question.

Big Mike said...

A bunch of years ago I served on a jury in a civil case. During the proceedings one side was challenged to produce a certain document and they couldn't or at any rate didn't. Part of the judge's instructions to us was that if one side has information but refuses to disclose it, under Maryland law we are free to assume that the information would be damaging to the side that fails to produce it.

[@Althouse, please help me out here.]

Anyway, to me the ridiculously hard line that the Democrats take with respect to investigating voter fraud is sort of like what the judge sais. If they are stonewalling efforts to investigate fraud, and they are alleged to have benefited from voter fraud, then we are entitled to believe the allegations unless and until voter fraud is thoroughly investigated and either remedied or shown to be nonexistent.

Chuck said...

James Kahn;
The study that is featured in the daily caller article that you linked is the same one I cited above, as one which Hans von Spakovsky wrote about some time ago.

But please note the limits placed on it by its own authors; “In spite of substantial public controversy, very little reliable data exists concerning the frequency with which non-citizen immigrants participate in United States elections. Although such participation is a violation of election laws in most parts of the United States, enforcement depends principally on disclosure of citizenship status at the time of voter registration...”

"...very little reliable data exists..."

These are the guys who have forgotten more about election law and voter data, than Donald Trump will ever know. And they certainly can't back up Trump's claims about voter "fraud."

We Republicans do have an agenda for serious and contentious election law reforms. Many of those reforms are not about Trump's personal grievances. And Trump needs to be careful, lest he hand our opponents some ammunition in the fight.

Sammy Finkelman said...

But now a birth certificate is considered proof of nothing except the age of a particular person. Not identity.Not taht the person presenting it is that person. And one decades old is worthless for legal purposes. That's probably why Obama didn't keep track of it, but was ashamed to admit it..

John henry said...

A question for Ann or another lawyer here:

Is there any federal requirement that a person be a citizen, or even here legally to vote?

For example, could California change their state law or constitution to allow anyone present in the state on election day to vote whether or not they are a citizen, whether or not they are here illegally?

Could they lower their voting age to 14?

My understanding is that each state has pretty absolute authority to allow anyone they wish to vote. Subject to the various anti-discrimination amendments, of course. Can't prevent women from voting, for example.

John Henry

FullMoon said...

Gore vBush 2000 5,861,203 4,567,429
Obama v Romney 7,854,285 4,839,958
Clinton v Trump 2016 8,753,788 4,483,810

Dem votes increase substantially, Repub votes stable.

Ca the high tech capital of the world. All the millionaires and billionaires except Thiel wanted Hillary to win. Absolutely no way the most creative guys in the world, guys who send rockets and satellites into space,for fun, manufacture electric cars, have robots for servants and sex slaves, could somehow manipulate vote results. Nope, no way at all.

Sammy Finkelman said...

Bruce Hayden:

The stories about JFK's father complaining about buying too many votes in IL,

That was JFK joking about what his father had told him about the West Virginia primary (don't buy a single more vote than necessary - he'll be damned if he'll pay for a;andslide) not the IL general election in Noveber. When did LBJ personally stuff ballots?

JaimeRoberto said...

Remember the kerfuffle about whether Obama encouraged illegals to vote? Here's the question from Gina Rodriguez that prompted Obama's response: "Many of the millennials, Dreamers, undocumented citizens -- and I call them citizens because they contribute to this country -- are fearful of voting." Based on the question it appears that Ms. Rodriguez was expecting illegals to vote, and that she was ok with it. Why might that be?

Chuck said...

Big Mike said...
A bunch of years ago I served on a jury in a civil case. During the proceedings one side was challenged to produce a certain document and they couldn't or at any rate didn't. Part of the judge's instructions to us was that if one side has information but refuses to disclose it, under Maryland law we are free to assume that the information would be damaging to the side that fails to produce it.

[@Althouse, please help me out here.]

It is a standard rule of evidence going back to Wigmore and beyond. Called generally an "adverse inference" instruction. But to get the instruction, the document or other evidence must be shown to have been in existence and within the control of the opposing party.

Usually things that are determined with relative certainty in discovery. Indeed the failure to supply/answer something in discovery can also lead to similar damaging presumptions.

So your comparison/hypothetical fails. Because the Democrats have never had such an exculpatory report. None exists.


Anonymous said...

Another voter fraud according to Trumps standard.

"President Trump's pick for Treasury secretary, Steve Mnuchin, is registered to vote in both New York and California, CNN reported Wednesday amid new concerns from the administration about redundant voters on ballot rolls."

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/316134-steve-mnuchin-registered-to-vote-in-new-york-california

Chuck said...

John said...
A question for Ann or another lawyer here:
Is there any federal requirement that a person be a citizen, or even here legally to vote?
For example, could California change their state law or constitution to allow anyone present in the state on election day to vote whether or not they are a citizen, whether or not they are here illegally?
Could they lower their voting age to 14?
My understanding is that each state has pretty absolute authority to allow anyone they wish to vote. Subject to the various anti-discrimination amendments, of course. Can't prevent women from voting, for example.


Federal statutory law prohibits it, in federal elections. States have had differing treatments going back to early American history, but it is really hard to imagine any state right now changing its laws to allow non-citizen voting. I don't think any state currently allows it under any circumstance.

Matt Sablan said...

"Another voter fraud according to Trumps standard."

-- Can no one parse complex sentence structure?

John henry said...

Question about drivers licenses:

I renewed mine last year. I've had a local drivers license since 1972 or so. Renewal still required proof of citizenship - I used my passport, proof of residence like a utility bill and an original, not a copy and some other stuff.

The proof of citizenship is new, I think. I am under the impression states are required by law to require it. (Or a green card etc)

What do other states do?

John Henry

Michael K said...

The lefties don't need logic and stuff like that.

I just moved to Arizona. I am registered to vote in California. When I get my AZ DL, I will register here. That is not vote fraud idiot. It is illegal to vote in BOTH places.

John henry said...

If I lived in the upper 50 I doubt that I would even vote. Your elections just do not strike me as inspiring any trust in the process at all.

I think an voting should require:

Paper ballots
Voting ID card. Not a drivers license but a card specifically and only for voting
Very limited absentee and early voting.
Voting in person
Inked fingers
Public counting of the ballots

Folks, it ain't that hard to do. We do it here every 4 years. Most of the rest of the world votes similarly.

John Henry

Chuck said...

John said...
Question about drivers licenses:

I renewed mine last year. I've had a local drivers license since 1972 or so. Renewal still required proof of citizenship - I used my passport, proof of residence like a utility bill and an original, not a copy and some other stuff.
The proof of citizenship is new, I think. I am under the impression states are required by law to require it. (Or a green card etc)
What do other states do?


All states do it now, as a result of the post-9/11 legislation (REAL ID is I think the name of the specific provision). The feds allocated some money, and got all the states to promise to update and enhanced their procedures. Including more secure licenses with stuff like holograms.

mockturtle said...

Where do you live, John Henry?

John henry said...

Blogger Bruce Hayden said...

I will admit to having received ballots from two statesv(CO and MT).

So a legal question for you: Can you be a legal resident of more than one state at a time? A "citizen" under the 14th Amendment.

My understanding, IANAL, has always been no. You had to be a resident of a single state.

Do CO and MT have voting laws requiring you to be a legal resident to vote? My guess would be yes but I don't know.

So if your legal residence was MT, wouldn't it be illegal for you to vote in CO? Or vice versa?

John Henry

eric said...

Blogger HeideC said...
Another voter fraud according to Trumps standard.


Is it voter fraud to be registered in two or more states?

No.

Is it voter fraud to vote in two or more states?

Yes.

Please understand the distinction.

Anonymous said...

Trump says it is voter fraud, dummy. Trump's own daughter too! Ermagod!

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/01/steve-bannon-is-registered-to-vote-in-two-states.html

(Update: Heat Street has broken the news that Trump’s daughter Tiffany is also registered to vote in two states. Sad to see the president’s own family get roped into the investigation.)

eric said...

All states do it now, as a result of the post-9/11 legislation (REAL ID is I think the name of the specific provision). The feds allocated some money, and got all the states to promise to update and enhanced their procedures. Including more secure licenses with stuff like holograms.

In Washington state you only need proof of citizenship if you're applying for an EDL (Enhanced Drivers License). Not for a regular license. We were told federal buildings and airports would no longer accept the regular Washington license as valid ID starting in Jan of 2016. We got a waiver and it's since been postponed.

Maybe Trump will change this also.

eric said...

Blogger HeideC said...
Trump says it is voter fraud, dummy. Trump's own daughter too! Ermagod!


Fake news. You really should stop listening to it.

Gahrie said...

The left didn't lose; the left were not represented in the last election.

Remember, comrade Cookie considers Pol Pot to be a moderate......

Matt Sablan said...

Heide, if this is the quote where you think "Trump says it is voter fraud," you need to read it closer:

""I will be asking for a major investigation into VOTER FRAUD, including those registered to vote in two states," Trump tweeted, as well as "those registered to vote who are dead (and many for a long time). Depending on results, we will strengthen up voting procedures!""

Because, Trump is saying: I (SUBJECT) WILL BE (VERB) -- asking for a major investigation -- into, this list of things:

Voter Fraud
People registered to vote in two states
People registered to vote who are dead

If you bother to diagram the sentence, he's not saying that two and three are voter fraud, but are things he wants to investigate.

Diagramming sentences! Yes, this is a copy and paste from the second page, but the fact that a new poster has shown up, on the next page, to spread the same misinformation as appeared on the last page means that people aren't reading page two and might not understand that Heide is just wrong.

Chuck said...

eric said...
Blogger HeideC said...
Another voter fraud according to Trumps standard.

Is it voter fraud to be registered in two or more states?

No.

Is it voter fraud to vote in two or more states?

Yes.

Please understand the distinction.



Actually, depending on your definition of "voter fraud" (an overused term these days), it is a crime in many of the United States -- a misdemeanor, generally -- to register to vote in state B if you also registered to vote in state A, or if you claim a right to vote anywhere else.

Not all states' laws read that way. I don't have a personal count on how many do operate that way. But under the aforementioned REAL ID law, I don't think you can get a drivers license in state B if you already have a current drivers license in state A. And voter i.d. laws (Yay, Republicans!) would thereby have a prophylactic effect on that sort of wrongdoing. You'd need to show your current, accurate state id to vote. Your "old" state would not accept your new license to vote.



Todd said...

HeideC said...
Trump says it is voter fraud, dummy. Trump's own daughter too! Ermagod!

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/01/steve-bannon-is-registered-to-vote-in-two-states.html

(Update: Heat Street has broken the news that Trump’s daughter Tiffany is also registered to vote in two states. Sad to see the president’s own family get roped into the investigation.)

1/25/17, 3:22 PM


And Obama said that there were 57 states. Just because the President says it, doesn't make it so. If it did, I would still have my old insurance plan and my old doctor...

Anonymous said...

Tiffany Trump registered to vote in two states.

Trump said in a tweet that being registered in two different states is tantamount to voter fraud. Did he have any idea of the can of worms he just opened? This is actually quite humorous.



Matt Sablan said...

Willy: See above. Trump's quote, if read without trying to misunderstand it, is a list of things he wants to investigate, not a list of things that are voter fraud.

Fabi said...

You're right, Chuck -- I meant to write six percent illegally cast, not illegal aliens. I've known Hans a long time and his work and C.V. are very familiar to me.

Big Mike said...

@Chuck, your comment's conclusion is written like a life-long Democrat.

The point is that one side says we need to investigate and one side has consistently done everything it can to prevent investigation. Which side should we believe would suffer if the truth came out?

Matt Sablan said...

Did Althouse get linked to from anywhere? It's kind of odd that a bunch of people with the same talking point just kind of showed up out of the blue.

John henry said...

Blogger Chuck said...


Federal statutory law prohibits it, in federal elections.

Not questioning you but if you happen to know the statute I'd be curious to see it. If not, I suspect that I can find it.

I wonder how this squares with the right of states to determine the manner of choosing electors?

And, Section 2

Electors (for Congress) in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature. Later amended to include senators

So can the feds put a citizenship requirement on voting for state reps? And if not, wouldn't a federal law that require citizenship make the qualifications different for State and Federal legislators?

As I say, not questioning you. Just that I would be interested to know more.

Looks like an interesting rathole for me to disappear down some evening.

John Henry

Francisco D said...

Chuck said: "Fuck you to hell, you ass."

Gee, I must have hit a sore spot in talking about how voter fraud works in big cities.

Perhaps we have underestimated Chuck. He's not just a Moby. I suspect he's an active participant in Democrat voter fraud among other nefarious activities.

Have a nice day. :-)

Big Mike said...

With regard to Steve Bannon and Tiffany Trump we need to consider the possibility that they de-registered from one address but the authorities failed to remove them from the rolls. This might be due to ineptitude or it might be part of a deliberate strategy to have identities that could be used by fraudsters to vote illegally in the old location.

Wife and I took pains to change our registration when we moved last summer. If I'm still registered at our old address that is manifestly not my fault.

Balfegor said...

Re: steve uhr:

Balfegor You are wrong. The president does not have the power to fire career prosecutors. Career employees can only be fired for good cause.

You're correct that AUSAs and other staff are protected by civil service regulations. But prosecutorial and investigative decisions are ultimately controlled by U.S. Attorneys, who are appointed by the President and whom he can fire. Or if he directs them to pursue an investigation (or drop an investigation) in contradiction to their professional judgment, they may resign.

The check on the president is fundamentally political.

John henry said...

My son spent a year in Philly and needed a PA drivers license to sign up for zipcar.

In order to get one he had to physically turn in his PR driver's license.

He had to get a new PR license when he came back.

John Henry

Todd said...

John Henry & Chuck...

It was my understanding (and I know I could be wrong) that a citizen does NOT have a right to vote. That there is NO right to vote.

That it is up to the states to determine how electors are selected and it does not have to be a one person one vote arrangement. If it is, though it must pass constitutional muster as well as civil rights laws.

http://www.acslaw.org/acsblog/does-the-us-constitution-guarantee-americans-an-affirmative-individual-right-to-vote

Chuck said...

eric said...
All states do it now, as a result of the post-9/11 legislation (REAL ID is I think the name of the specific provision). The feds allocated some money, and got all the states to promise to update and enhanced their procedures. Including more secure licenses with stuff like holograms.

In Washington state you only need proof of citizenship if you're applying for an EDL (Enhanced Drivers License). Not for a regular license. We were told federal buildings and airports would no longer accept the regular Washington license as valid ID starting in Jan of 2016. We got a waiver and it's since been postponed.

Maybe Trump will change this also.


Wow, you prompted me to look it up and you are right! Washington is one of just two states that don't require "citizenship" proof.

But I still think that the REAL ID Act requires states to obtain a social security number from drivers license applicants. Does Washington ask for that? (I don't know.) For the most part, ss# = citizen.


Seeing Red said...

Just goes to show how the rolls need to be updated.

eric said...

Blogger Willy said...
Tiffany Trump registered to vote in two states.

Trump said in a tweet that being registered in two different states is tantamount to voter fraud.


More fake news talking points. He didn't say it was fraud, nor did he say it was tantamount to fraud.

MayBee said...

People posting the Trump people's double registration don't realize they are making the point exactly. The voter rolls are sloppy.

JAORE said...

"Why should Trump have the power to demand Justice conduct a major costly investigation without significant evidence? Justice should handle it the same as if I wrote them a letter asking for an investigation. "

Dear DOJ, please investigate the finances, associates, travel, voting habits and living arrangements of a Mr. Steve Uhr.

Respectfully,
Someone with the same authority as the President

Sweet Baby Geebuzz

Bay Area Guy said...

Plan A: There is no evidence of voter fraud!

Plan B: Voter fraud? Tiffany Trump and Steve Bannon are registered in two states!

The Left never sleeps do they?

God Bless the Electoral College, which anticipated all this nonsense.

James K said...

"For the most part, ss# = citizen"

I don't think that's correct. Anyone with a work permit can get a SSN (and I think must get one if they are to be employed), and even legal immigrants without a work permit may be able to get one. Here's info from the SSA

MayBee said...

But your whole life doesn't depend on it, and voting illegally could get someone in trouble.

Of course your whole life depends on it, if you are being told one candidate wants to round you up and deport you, and one candidate wants you to live free in the US.

buwaya said...

"For the most part, ss# = citizen"

No, all permanent residents and persons with working visas (H1B, etc.) have ss# also. I do.
They can check for valid SS#, but as far as I know SS does not track citizen vs non-citizen.

And there are ubiquitous fake SS cards/numbers.

MayBee said...

James Kahn is right. If you've ever made money in the US, you may need a Social Security number.

I knew a guy who was a British citizen living in Hong Kong who was traveling back to the US for business, and he was nervous because he hadn't paid some of the social security taxes he owed. He was afraid he would get caught at border control.

eric said...

Actually, depending on your definition of "voter fraud" (an overused term these days), it is a crime in many of the United States -- a misdemeanor, generally -- to register to vote in state B if you also registered to vote in state A,

I'm pretty certain this is wrong.

If you are registered to vote in State A and move to state B and then register to vote in State B without first going back to State A and unregistering (how is that even done?) Then under the strict parsing of what you just wrote, even if State A and B had an agreement to unregister those who were newly registered, just by the act of signing up you'd have committed a crime. Because you didn't unregister first.

Now, if you tweak the language some and take out the Or and just start with if, then it is plausible.

MayBee said...

Anyone here illegally who has a job at a restaurant or grocery store is using a fake Social Security number. Having a SS# isn't a problem, and using one that isn't really yours is only a problem if someone actually verifies the numbers. They don't for taxes, and we don't know if they do for voter rolls, because they won't tell us. And when CNN had the California Secretary of State on they didn't ask him. They just let him say how outrageous this is.

JAORE said...

" For the most part, ss# = citizen."

Since "for the most part" = greater than 50% your statement is true. But there are still many, many with a SSN who are not citizens.

Remember all the folk who tell us non-citizens pay taxes, including SS taxes. That's them. Can't have it both ways.

JAORE said...

I was referring to real SSNs held by non-citizens.
In addition, MayBee is absolutely right. There are also a bunch of fake SSN's out there, but you'll never find them if you don't look.

MayBee said...

I've lived in many US States and have never been told how to de-register to vote.
I'm not even sure how it could be against the law to be on the rolls in two places, since maintaining the voter rolls isn't up to the individual.

MayBee said...

This is what it says on a website called USA.gov:

"Anytime you’ve moved permanently
You can’t be registered to vote in more than one place at a time. When you register to vote in a new location, you’ll be asked for your previous address. Your new election office will send a cancellation form to your previous election office."

I have no idea if this happens, and I have no idea if the previous election office does anything about a notice they may receive. Obviously not, if so many people are registered in more than one place.

MayBee said...

I've just never seen anything like this news reporting on this story before. They openly call this "Trump's continued false claim". Every story on cable news repeats, over and over, that there is no evidence to back it up.

Did they ever do this with the fake "women make 70% of what men make" or "1 in 4 women get raped" claims whenever Obama or a Congressperson made them?

Their hysteria makes me believe there is something more behind this than the love of facts.

buwaya said...

A comprehensive citizen-alien resident personal identity system with a central clearinghouse is necessary.

Its clear that this hodge-podge of repurposed drivers licenses and state ID's and easily scammed SS#s is too easily abused for all sorts of illegal purposes, not just in voting but identity fraud and benefits fraud also.

Other countries have had effectively bulletproof national ID systems for a hundred years.

eric said...

Blogger MayBee said...
I've just never seen anything like this news reporting on this story before. They openly call this "Trump's continued false claim". Every story on cable news repeats, over and over, that there is no evidence to back it up.

Did they ever do this with the fake "women make 70% of what men make" or "1 in 4 women get raped" claims whenever Obama or a Congressperson made them?

Their hysteria makes me believe there is something more behind this than the love of facts.


Nah. This is just typical covering of a Republican administration. You've gotten used to eight years of Obama.

You'll get used to the new normal soon enough.

Just wait until they focus on how awful the economy is. You think this is bad.

eric said...

Blogger MayBee said...
This is what it says on a website called USA.gov:

"Anytime you’ve moved permanently
You can’t be registered to vote in more than one place at a time. When you register to vote in a new location, you’ll be asked for your previous address. Your new election office will send a cancellation form to your previous election office."

I have no idea if this happens, and I have no idea if the previous election office does anything about a notice they may receive. Obviously not, if so many people are registered in more than one place.


Which means you're not responsible if you're still registered at your old address. As long as you didn't lie when registering under your new address.

Anonymous said...

Maybee,

It is pushback against Trumps lies. If the Press doesn't report his lies, who will?

MayBee said...

eric- right. So once again, it comes back to who is in charge of maintaining the voter rolls, and how they do it.
Which apparently is very uninteresting to the people determined to tell us how wrong Trump is.

Michael K said...

It is hilarious that Trump will get his vote fraud study done and Democrats opened the door with the fake Russian hacking story.

The Voter ID bill will be ready before the 2018 election.

Chris of Rights said...

"*I would normally avoid using the phrase "illegal immigrants," because I think some people find it offensive, but the NYT used it!"

I do find the term offensive.

But if you're not willing to use "invader", or at least "illegal alien", I can tolerate it.

The very word immigrant implies legality in my mind, which is why I can't stand it.

buwaya said...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_identity_card

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNI_electr%C3%B3nico_en_Espa%C3%B1a

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carte_nationale_d'identit%C3%A9_en_France

Well, comprehensive centralized systems for 75 years more or less.
In Spain and its colonies, the cedula was locally issued (no central registry, but it was a mandatory ID) since 1824.

Anonymous said...

Trump asserted in a tweet that it is voter fraud to be registered in two states. trump lied or Trump is stupid.


"I will be asking for a major investigation into VOTER FRAUD, including those registered to vote in two states, those who are illegal and even, those registered to vote who are dead (and many for a long time),” Trump said in a pair of Twitter posts on Wednesday. “Depending on results, we will strengthen up voting procedures!”

Tank said...

I like illegal alien because it sounds like they came from another planet.

I would be ok with invader too.

rcocean said...

Methinks the liberals doth protest too much. Its amazing how incurious they are to determine how much voter fraud is occurring.

You'd think they'd love to "fact-check" Trump and come back with "Wrong Trump, latest studies show illegals only make xx.xx% of voters". But they never do.

Its always just "liar liar" and no discussion of what the TRUE number is.

Bad Lieutenant said...

All the winning! Mr President, I can't take all this winning! But please don't stop, my explosion of joy is my sacrifice to the nation! Just simmer down a bit until I can encase myself in shrapnel and get near a high concentration of Leftists! It's okay, I'll die laughing! aaaaaaaaahahahahahahahhaha!!!!!!

Bad Lieutenant said...

Willy,

Nobody cares!

PS You're nobody!!! Ahahahahaa!

Bay Area Guy said...

Democrats argue that investigating voter fraud will suppress the vote .

Shorter Dems: There is no voter fraud and don't you dare try to find out if there is!

Dr Weevil said...

Chuck (11:48am) can't seem to do simple arithmetic. He triumphantly reports that "Hans von Spakovsky likes to cite a study showing that about 6% of non-citizens actually vote in US elections" as evidence that Trump is "spouting off a lot of bullshit that sounds like Breitbart and InfoWars" when he says that there were 3 million illegal votes. So how many non-citizens does von Spakovsky think voted? There are over 22 million non-citizen legal immigrants in the U.S. and anywhere between 11 million and 40 million illegal immigrants, depending on who's doing the estimating. If the latter number is 28 million, then we have 50 million non-citizens (legal and illegal) who may not legally vote. If 6% of them did vote, that comes out to . . . 3 million votes. If there are more than 28 million illegals, the estimate would be even higher, if fewer, not all that much lower. In short, only 6% of a very large number is still a pretty large number. And we haven't even started to add in the double voting by people registered in two states, voting for dead people, mail-in ballots stolen and voted by someone else, and so on.

I've mentioned this before, but I have been personally encouraged to vote in two states in the same election by a Democratic canvasser who treated me as if I were the asshole in the conversation when I told him what he wanted me to do was illegal, immoral, unethical, and probably unconstitutional. (University City, Missouri, 1982 - I told him I didn't need to hear about his candidate because I was moving before the election, and he said "That's great! Get an absentee ballot before you move, and register as soon as you get to Maryland, and you can vote in both places!")

rcocean said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bad Lieutenant said...

What's wrong with "bastards?" Maybe if we didn't sugar-coat the poison, fewer would swallow it.

rcocean said...

People have already mentioned it, but California (which Hillary won by millions) operates on the honor system.

Its against the law to ask for proof of citizenship and anyone with a Drivers License is automatically registered. Nor does California do anything to make sure your mail-in vote is legitimate.

So if you're an illegal, or if you want your dog to vote, you can do it in California without any fear of being caught or punished.

Bay Area Guy said...

Mississippi poll tax circa 1947 = Voter Fraud

Showing your valid driver license circa 2017 = Voter Fraud

Why we don't believe Dem politicians on this issue.....

MayBee said...

Trump asserted in a tweet that it is voter fraud to be registered in two states. trump lied or Trump is stupid.

Who gets joy out of playing word games like this? Trump can't see your comments here, he can't see the nearly identical comments from the others who came here to post them, so you aren't going to hurt his feeling with your sick burn.

Just as it is not illegal to be registered to vote and be dead (how could it possibly be? You can't unregister after you've died), it is not illegal to be registered in more than one place. But both of those things- along with people who cannot legally vote registering to vote- enable voter fraud. If you show up to vote and give a name that is on the roll, they are going to let you vote. Fraud has to be stopped via registration maintenance.

Now, you can choose to believe Trump is really stupid, or you can see your talking point is really stupid. Actually, feel free to believe both.

Unknown said...

Blogger Michael K said...
"It is hilarious that Trump will get his vote fraud study done and Democrats opened the door with the fake Russian hacking story."

Funny you should bring up the Russian hacking story. Looks like the House Intelligence Committee will also be investigating as well as the Senate Intelligence Committee.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/house-intelligence-committee-russia-trump-234168

"The House Intelligence Committee is now looking into alleged ties between Russia and the Trump campaign, the panel’s leaders said Wednesday, making it the second congressional investigation into the sensitive issue.

Intelligence Chairman Devin Nunes (R-Calif.) said in a joint statement with his Democratic counterpart, Rep. Adam Schiff of California, the committee is conducting a broad probe of Russia’s meddling in the 2016 presidential election."

Drago said...

Willy: "Maybee, It is pushback against Trumps lies. If the Press doesn't report his lies, who will?"

It is really important to create the lies if the folks on the right aren't willing to make them when needed.

Just like all the "hate crimes" that did not occur but received an astonishing amount of airtime on the MSM feeds.

MayBee said...

Bay Area Guy- that is so jaw-dropping.

MayBee said...

Funny you should bring up the Russian hacking story. Looks like the House Intelligence Committee will also be investigating as well as the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Good.

Let's get some light shown on the hacking story, rather than just all this heat.

Drago said...

There will continue to be lots and lots of investigations into the Russians hacking the DNC...but don't expect the servers or the content therein to ever be looked into heavily or reported upon.

Because REASONS Hater!

Seeing Red said...

There's an article st Insty about Loretta Lynch's DOJ.

Fireable offense?

geoffb said...

The WaPo in 2014 published a piece about a study done a group of social science and political science researchers.

Is this the study mention by others above?

rcocean said...

The more bat-shit crazy his critics are on this issue, the more I believe trump is right.

Warren Fahy said...

You're right, Althouse - the weird assertion of certainty against Trump's uncertain assertion inserts uncertainty. Why so serious? Hmm. Now we're wondering. Is that Trump's opening move?

Sammy Finkelman said...

Richard said...1/25/17, 11:23 AM

CBS was worse. CBS radio news called it a disproven claim. When was it disproven?

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/18/us/voter-fraud.html

The New York Times asked election officials in all 50 states, and none reported any kind of major voter fraud.

But inquiries to all 50 states (every one but Kansas responded) found no states that reported indications of widespread fraud. And while additional allegations could surface as states wind up postelection reviews, their conclusions are unlikely to change significantly.

kentuckyliz said...

Unvisa'ed visitors. (Instead of illegal immigrants, illegal aliens, or undocumented workers.)

I have no doubt that noncitizens vote. I witnessed it when I was working at a boarding high school that was one-third international students. They were bragging about registering to vote and voting (and they were not citizens or even 18 yet).

A colleague of mine's husband has been dead for at least 15 years but he keeps voting, and I know that firsthand because his name is near mine on the register and I look each time I go...yup, dead guy voting.

I bet the Democrats are cringing at the reporter who challenged Spicer, "Why don't you investigate then?" I imagine Donna Brazile yelling at the TV, "Noooo!"

Seeing Red said...

Major voter fraud.

Start parsing.

Sammy Finkelman said...

Is this the study mention by others above?

1/25/17, 5:23 PM

I think it is referring to it, but it doesn't gve a link.

This is the link: which contains some links to criticisms of it)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/24/could-non-citizens-decide-the-november-election/

Theer's also the Ore study on extra people on the voting rolls.

MayBee said...

But inquiries to all 50 states (every one but Kansas responded) found no states that reported indications of widespread fraud. And while additional allegations could surface as states wind up postelection reviews, their conclusions are unlikely to change significantly.

Yes, and if I audited my own taxes, I would never find any errors.

MayBee said...

First, I could make my own rules about which taxes I had to pay.
Then I could audit my own taxes.

I would have 100% compliance, I tell you.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Ron Wyden was on NPR again this morning, arguing for mail-in ballots nationwide. He says there's no risk of fraud. I think there's basically unlimited risk of fraud. All you have to do is (1) fake registrations; (2) arrange for ballots to be sent somewhere, which can be an accommodation address or whatever you like (several dozen ballots were sent to the house of one elderly woman this election cycle); and (3) fill them out and mail them yourself. Easy-peasy. By the side of this, in-person fraud is unbelievably difficult.

As for other immigration problems, yup, been there, got those. The six-times-deported murderer of Kate Steinle was trumped (!) by the seven-times-deported murderer of three (with a fourth wounded) just north of here.

Leigh said...

Re the use of "illegal alien," there is nothing offensive about calling a spade a spade; to claim otherwise is Orwellian. The phrase "undocumented person" is obviously psychological in design. It forces people to adjust their vocabulary and change their thinking, so that criminals are normalized and rational thinking becomes aberrant. That is full-on Orwellian.

Re voter fraud, Trump's claim was not limited to illegal aliens. Countless U.S. citizens vote illegally. For instance, I was a poll watcher in Boston for Scott Brown in his race against Martha Coakley (for Ted Kennedy's seat). A young, strapping lawyer volunteered with me and we were sent to a heavily Democratic precinct. When we told the warden (a very large woman) that her election workers were repeatedly handing out two and three ballots to ONE voter, she was hostile and aggressive. If I'd been alone, I would have felt physically intimidated and afraid. (We discovered the multiple-ballot problem when voters tried to feed two at a time into the machine.)

When the warden opened up an absentee ballot on which the voter had selected both Coakley and the independent candidate, she declared the ballot to be a vote for Coakley because she "knew the woman and she's a lifelong democrat." We filed a written objection and she started screaming.

Brown's team finally called the Elections Department. Several hours later, an irritated woman from the Elections Dep't came by and it was a big MEH. She saw no problem with the fact multiple ballots were being handed out because "it was just a mistake." Imagine what mischief would have gone on, had we not been there. Scott Brown would have lost that election without the army of volunteers he deployed to Democratic precincts all over Massachusetts.

This sort of cheating explains why we see more votes than voters in so many heavily Democratic counties. The Democrats are blatant about it, and shameless. When you catch them in the act, they push back like thugs. "Yeah? So what are you gonna' do about it?" Voter fraud is alive and well in the United States. Based on my own experience, I'd say it's entrenched.

Bring on the investigations ASAP. Start with the precincts in Detroit (and elsewhere) that were so mismanaged, recounts (requested by Jill Stein) were rendered impossible.

kentuckyliz said...

And there's crap like this. Eastern Kentucky is rife with political corruption.

"Millow Dean McCarty told Scott McCarty that Gary Risner was upset about a male who asked him for money [for his vote]. Gary Risner put the male in one of Gary’s barn stalls. Gary started a chainsaw and made the male strip his close off to prove he did not have a recording device on him."

FBI notes about vote buying in Magoffin County KY

geoffb said...

Link to study though I'm not credentialed to get it without paying $20, which I won't do.

Michael in ArchDen said...

So, if the President ISN"T the"boss of the DoJ, he has no authority to set prosecutorial priorities, like say, stop looking for persons with an irregular immigration status, or don't prosucute marijuana crimes...right, Steve Uhr? That's all determined "internally" by DoJ and is never influenced by political results!

Bad Lieutenant said...

Why didn't they just ask the Southern states if any blacks were being denied the vote, civil rights, etc? Much simpler than all that court business, or say Eisenhower sending troops.

Ah, that's what I want. Federal troops kicking down doors at the capitols and forensics teams camping there and not leaving till they find the vote fraud.

Maybe he could spare a four-man team to go look in on Steve Uhr--that's your real name, right?--wait wait don't tell me, Google will know which house to knock at.

aaaahahahahaha

TFW...

Bad Lieutenant said...

And if you don't like illegal immigrants,

Intruders?

Invaders?

Burglars? Breakers-and-enterers?

Bad Lieutenant said...

Threats?

Targets?

DanTheMan said...

>>found no states that reported indications of widespread fraud.

To my lefty friends here: In California, there are about 2.5 million illegal aliens.

How many would have to have voted before you would consider it a problem? 0.1%? 1%? 10%?

A serious question...

DtM

exhelodrvr1 said...

I would be surprised if it's only 3M - do the arithmetic, progressives! At least some of you went to school before Common Core, right?

Gk1 said...

Remember when ACORN collapsed with just the slightest push after the O'Keefe videos came out? I had heard about ACRON's voter scams for years back in the 1980's for crying out loud. That is what I hope for with a DOJ investigation. It won't take much to turn over this rock and see all the creepy crawlies. And THANK YOU LEFTIES for making this all possible! :-)

Quaestor said...

The left didn't lose; the left were not represented in the last election.

Damn! there goes another keyboard!

Oh, really? The fact that the Left has always been a collection of mountebanks and morons is a problem the Left entirely owns. Just as Stalin defeated Trotsky Hilliary defeated Bernie. Left leadership always accrues to the most ruthless and unprincipled. The fact that Sanders sold out for a promise of money is merely typical.

Michael K said...

"Funny you should bring up the Russian hacking story."

Yes, it's very funny because it is going to be the open door to a voter ID bill before the next election.

Leftist idiots brought this on themselves with the silly refusal to accept that Hillary LOST !

They could realistically analyze what happened. In 2008, she assumed she would be a winner before Super Tuesday and ran out of money for the late primaries.

This time she made sure she had lots of money but still failed to campaign in swing states. Both times, she was over confident.

Now, the Democrats have, in trying to excuse her failure with fake stories about Russians, opened the door to stop all their cheating with dead voters and double voters and precincts where 140% of registered voters vote.

It is just funny to watch.

walter said...

Right. Prove his number wrong. Then address "every vote matters".

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I disapprove of the use of the phrase "false claim" in a news article.

This is the reason you would never get a news job, other than as an announcer for fellow partisan hacks. The press simply does not have time to indulge Trump's never-ending stream of delusions. He is a narcissist, he is a liar; everything he says is meant to satisfy some strange, internal, ego aim. He lies reflexively, he contradicts himself the next day, he does it over and over again without any regard for correction or actual, factual claims. The press has made the right decision early on that there is no purpose to pretending that he suddenly sprouted a sincere interest in truth and reality. To believe otherwise is as delusional as pretending that your next-door neighbor is doing something newsworthy every day if the two of you so much as happen to say "Hello" to each other in passing. There are priorities in life, and pretending that a known congenital liar deserves to be taken more seriously than anyone else just because he's the president is farcical and a blatant ploy to keep the press hamstringed from reporting on actual news. Trump has his own propaganda arm - and it's failing miserably. He has no right to co-opt a free and independent media into his idiotic and destructive shenanigans.

Is this post seriously the best you can do? You're not his lawyer. You must really harbor a burning hatred for objectivity.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Trump's surrogates actually referred to his campaign as part of a "post-truth" strategy and their narrative as "alternative facts." Sorry, but the press won't be going along with that bullshit. Get your own "post-truth alternative facts." Oh yeah, that's right. The blog.

Anyone can make things up. This tantrum over the press for deciding they have better things to do than that is the epitome of ridiculous.

walter said...

"He has no right to co-opt a free and independent media "
We need to get one of those.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

We need to get one of those.

Until Republicans stop confusing money with freedom, you'll have to settle for the best propaganda money can buy, instead.

LilyBart said...

I would normally avoid using the phrase "illegal immigrants," because I think some people find it offensive

Did they immigrate illegally? Why yes they did! So, it's quite appropriately descriptive.

They WANT us to use words that make it sound like there is just a little snafu with the paperwork, because words matter.

walter said...

Oh..I was thinking of the self-described "hacks" revealed in those dastardly emails.
I know..forget that ..RUSSIANS!!!

walter said...

Diregarding the exact number, though Trump wasn't the first to invoke similar, I think it would have been better to go with the Hil troupe mantra of every vote matters and see where that actually leads.

Chuck said...

Fabi said...
You're right, Chuck -- I meant to write six percent illegally cast, not illegal aliens. I've known Hans a long time and his work and C.V. are very familiar to me.


I think I called him a very friendly and quiet guy. If you've seen him in a debate, you'll know tough he can be too. No retreat, no prisoners.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Ron Wyden was on NPR again this morning, arguing for mail-in ballots nationwide. He says there's no risk of fraud. I think there's basically unlimited risk of fraud. All you have to do is (1) fake registrations; (2) arrange for ballots to be sent somewhere, which can be an accommodation address or whatever you like (several dozen ballots were sent to the house of one elderly woman this election cycle); and (3) fill them out and mail them yourself. Easy-peasy. By the side of this, in-person fraud is unbelievably difficult.

As for other immigration problems, yup, been there, got those. The six-times-deported murderer of Kate Steinle was trumped (!) by the seven-times-deported murderer of three (with a fourth wounded) just north of here.

SukieTawdry said...

James Kahn said...This was 2008, before CA gave out drivers' licenses to illegals.

The DLs issued to illegals can't be used as identification. Under the motor voter law, people who apply for regular licenses must provide proof of age, residence and citizenship.

The problem in California is that you can register by mail and even if you don't provide the required ID numbers, you will still get registered. They'll tell you that you may, that's MAY, be required to provide appropriate documentation at the polling place. You can get around that by voting by mail.





SukieTawdry said...

I normally use the phrase illegal aliens because that's exactly what they are and I don't care if offends people.

JAORE said...

"Another voter fraud according to Trumps standard."

I've heard of rose colored glasses.

But there now appears to be miss-read-in-whichever-way-is-worst-for Trump glasses.

Kind of like a fun house mirror. You move around until the image suits you.

Chuck said...

Dr. Weevil;

Reviewing my 11:48 post fairly, it doesn't say what you have claimed.

I did criticize Trump's sounding like Breitbart and InfoWars. But that 3 million number of possible illegal votes, as you derive it through the study that von Spakovsky was writing about, was not part of my calculus. I said explicitly that it was not a study that I had, uh, studied.

My problem is Trump's style; it always is. Trump blunders his way into this fight talking about dead people voting, and "illegals" voting, and registered citizens voting in multiple places. Witness, please, the ABC interview of the President done by David Muir. It airs tonight, in less than an hour.

If Trump doesn't produce a DoJ report that proves a lot of that stuff, I fear what it might do to real Republican election law reforms that have nothing to do with the statistically small numbers of non-citizen voting, etc.

I don't know; perhaps some genuinely smart guys hired into Justice by Jeff Sessions can turn this Trump kerfuffle into something good in the end. IN the meantime, I agree with Lindsey Graham in hoping that Trump would just quit talking about it.

SukieTawdry said...

Robert Cook said...Trump sez lots 'o shit he doesn't mean or won't do. He's a fraudster, a flim-flim man.

I dunno, I'm getting dizzy from the speed by which he's moving forward on campaign promises.

JAORE said...

"But inquiries to all 50 states (every one but Kansas responded) found no states that reported indications of widespread fraud."

OK, how many of you election officials are incompetent or crooked?

None?

Good! That puts this voter fraud crap to rest.

JackWayne said...

What I would like to see is if Trump is a Grand Master Troll. The donkey in the room is our poorly written Constitution that apportions Representatives on a census of People. Not Citizens. How many districts have been apportioned to California, Texas, Mew York and Florida that have a very high number of illegals? How different would the apportionment get if the Constitution mandated Citizens instead of People? I hope Trump's investigation touches on this point.

mockturtle said...

Good point, Jack!

Chuck said...

Jack Wayne;

You are talking about the Evenwell case from last year. Unanimous decision of the Supreme Court.

It's about eight congressional districts' worth, if you believe this interesting analysis found at Five-Thirty-Eight:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-supreme-court-could-give-the-gop-another-8-seats-in-congress/

BN said...

Professor: "*I would normally avoid using the phrase "illegal immigrants," because I think some people find it offensive, but the NYT used it!"

OK. Now I'm getting [close to] tired of winning.

JAORE said...

"the statistically small numbers of non-citizen voting"

And you know this for a fact because........

JackWayne said...

I don't buy 538's analysis at all. The point is the gerrymander would be very different. I propose the difference would be 10-15 Democrat districts would flip to Republican, maybe more. Part of my expectation is that California would lose 4 Representatives. Texas a couple as well as NY and Florida.

Gahrie said...

Voting should be one day, in person, show an ID. the only people who get to vote absentee are military and governmental officials serving overseas. paper ballots, based on bubble in scantrons that we all use in school.

Leigh said...

Here's the link to the Harvard study that many earlier commenters referenced, about the level of "non-citizen 'participation' in elections."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261379414000973

The on-going Harvard study -- rooted in scientific methodology, using scientific statistical sampling -- concludes that non-citizens do indeed participate in U.S. elections. Moreover, the study finds, non-citizens "participate" (by casting their votes) in numbers large enough to affect the outcome of elections, including presidential elections.

Can we now agree that the science behind voter fraud is settled? If not, can we agree at the very least that the science behind voter fraud is unsettled? Because the consensus in the scientific community, per a review of the credible evidence available, is that substantial and significant voter fraud has occurred and continues.

The leftist, lying media is unabashed in its mission to perpetuate borderline-hysterical, unsourced, and wildly unsubstantiated claims (a/k/a "propaganda") about voter fraud: namely, that there is no evidence to support Trump's concerns about voter fraud and, moreover, his unfounded concerns have been affirmatively debunked. But only the lying leftist media's claims about voter fraud have been "debunked." The so-far uncontroverted evidence that is available shows that non-citizens vote in numbers too big to ignore. Non-citizen, illegal votes have been large enough to change the outcomes of important elections. Small wonder, then, that the lying, leftist media ignore the data from the Harvard study and refuse to acknowledge, much less report it. Non-citizen immigrant voters are a constituency that, much like the blacks, the left embraces and then recklessly abandons as political expedience dictates.

Gospace said...

Ann Althouse said...

The immigration was illegal, but the immigrant is a human being, and putting illegal in front of the word that represents the person seems to some to suggest that everything about the person is wrong. So it's disrespectful.


The immigrant is in the country unlawfully. Therefore, the immigrant is NOT an immigrant at all, but an invader, if you're going to use the proper terms. And it's pretty darn disrespectful to enter a country unlawfully, knowing you did so, and continuing to live there.

So like most citizens of the United States, I really don't give a crap that thoughtful and oh so polite lawyers think it's disrespectful to call illegal immigrants illegal immigrants. Perhaps you'd prefer illegal invaders?

Gospace said...

Robert Cook said...
Trump sez lots 'o shit he doesn't mean or won't do. He's a fraudster, a flim-flim man. That's how he conned you guys & gals into voting for him--those of you here that did, that is.


Trump didn't con very many people I know into voting for him. His dishonest lying opponent convinced us to vote against her, and the only candidate that could keep her out of the presidency was Trump.

Heinlein's quote applies to this last election, in spades: “If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for ... but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong.” In case of doubt, vote against. And that's how a lot of us made our decision.

Rusty said...

"...very little reliable data exists..."

Very little data exits on a lot of illegl activity. Especially if that activity is directly beneficial to political corruption.
Ask any Chicago aldermn.

Robert Cook said...

"Heinlein's quote applies to this last election, in spades: “If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for ... but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong.” In case of doubt, vote against. And that's how a lot of us made our decision."

I agree, and I voted against both Hillary and Trump.

mockturtle said...

No state is going to investigate voter fraud or admit to it. If we had an honest, objective press, it would be a great journalism project. IF...

readering said...

It was pretty obvious last fall that if Trump got elected we were looking at a 4 year clusterfuck. It will be interesting to see when Althouse admits that's what's going on.

Achilles said...

"Is this post seriously the best you can do? You're not his lawyer. You must really harbor a burning hatred for objectivity"

The nature of bias is that the holder of the bias is unaware of their bias.

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