March 23, 2013

"Why should they be forced to deal with the news that a male teacher they have always known as Mr Upton will henceforth be a woman called Miss Meadows?"

So wrote Daily Mail columnist Richard Littlejohn in an article headlined "He's not only in the wrong body … he's in the wrong job."

The school's headmaster had written to the parents telling them that Nathan Upton "has recently made a significant change in his life and will be transitioning to live as a woman" and would be called Lucy Meadows.

Now, Upton/Meadows has been found dead:
Helen Belcher, director of TransMedia Watch (TMW), which monitors media coverage of trans issues, stressed on Friday that while the circumstances surrounding Meadows's death were unclear, "we know that Lucy suffered a huge amount of monstering and harassment by the press when she was very vulnerable around Christmas. That level of press attention could not have helped her mental state one bit."
"Monstering," according to an Urban Dictionary definition from 2010, is "The art of abusing people. Of ambushing them with questions, following them with questions, hounding them with questions, driving them to their fucking graves with questions. It’s sort of being like a photographer, except no ones' killed any royalty doing it…yet."

Now, the monstering turns to Littlejohn:
[F]ormer Labour spin doctor Alastair Campbell... tweeted: "I hope journalists are doorstepping Dacre, Murdoch and Littlejohn for their reaction to Lucy Meadows' suicide. The Mail really is scum."
Jennie Kermode, chair of TMW, said: "What we want to come out of Lucy's death is for people in the media to think about what they are writing and the way they are writing it...."

132 comments:

chickelit said...

This reminds me of that nurse who committed suicide after the radio prank.

Mumpsimus said...

I never saw "doorstepping" before, either.

Terry said...

So it was suicide.
It's always society's fault when an LGBT offs his/her self, isn't it?
It's hard not to believe that LGBT's are actually a superior race, being immune to the sort of mental disorders that make non-LGBT's kill themselves.

Baron Zemo said...

It might be unsightly to see the dude dressed up like that but they didn't have to call him a monster...oh what...nevermind.

Palladian said...

It's always society's fault when an LGBT offs his/her self, isn't it?

Not always. But sometimes.

Ann Althouse said...

"I never saw "doorstepping" before, either."

Not in the Urban Dictionary yet, I see.

Seems like the English are eager to turn nouns into verbs. (And men into ladies.)

Palladian said...

This thread will be a good example of the hateful human impulse to gang attack anyone perceived as a "freak".

Ann Althouse said...

Those who commit suicide are responsible for what they have done, which is to kill a human being.

Others may have done wrong too.

edutcher said...

No mention of what grade he/she taught. Unless it was in the upper forms (unlikely), the columnist was right; it was the wrong job to do that kind of experimentation.

And then there's this line, "we know that Lucy suffered a huge amount of monstering and harassment by the press when she was very vulnerable around Christmas. That level of press attention could not have helped her mental state one bit."

Golly gee, it's OK if it's a Conservative or Republican, so why not treat this guy equally?

Skyler said...

It certainly didn't deserve to die, assuming there was foul play, but it also had no business being a school teacher. While it might be funny as satire on South Park, it is not funny in real life.

Bender said...

It's always society's fault . . .

Of course it is. It is society's fault that people did not respect this person's right to be treated like a woman, with all of a woman's rights, like the right to abortion.

Palladian said...

Those who commit suicide are responsible for what they have done, which is to kill a human being.

Oh you're not still pushing that shit, are you?

Dante said...

Those who commit suicide are responsible for what they have done, which is to kill a human being.

Are you saying it is morally wrong to kill oneself? Or pointing out the obvious, that the person has committed a homicide?

Palladian said...

You're condemning all people who commit suicide as murderers, yet what about the legal principle of innocent until proven guilty? And what about "not guilty by reason of insanity", if the act of suicide was provoked by mental illness such as severe depression, borderline personality, &c?

Bender said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
edutcher said...

Technically, anyone who commits suicide is unbalanced at that moment, our survival instincts being what they are.

The issue is whether it's the result of some greater pathology or the inability to cope.

Bender said...

Apparently it is monstering to refuse to play pretend and tell lies.

Meanwhile, demanding that other people embrace the lie, that they bow down to the lie and publicly state that what is a lie is truth, those people are the angelic heroes.

Terry said...

"My genitalia and hormones are wrong. I want you to remove my penis and fashion a vagina for me."

"Of course! Nature made a hash of you by giving you a penis! We'll get right on it"

"I want to kill myself"

"That's insane!"

Palladian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Palladian said...

Meanwhile, demanding that other people embrace the lie, that they bow down to the lie and publicly state that what is a lie is truth, those people are the angelic heroes.

You mean like unbelievers who politely accept your right to embrace and express your chosen religious beliefs?

It's not about embracing lies, it's about not being an asshole. I believe that people— transexual, religious, philosophy-wise, whatever— have a right to define themselves and, to a large degree, deserve a reasonable measure of politesse. Not being an asshole makes living with other messy humans a lot easier.

edutcher said...

Anybody who tries to change sexes has some major psychiatric problems.

Whether changing sexes is the answer to that problem or whether it just makes things worse is the issue.

Indulging someone's alternative reality usually doesn't help and I don't think this person was strong enough to handle the stress.

Getting the change doesn't seem like it was the answer for him. He needed to look more deeply into his emotions, rather than going for the superficial solution.

My $.02

Jeff Teal said...

I'm absolutely fine letting most people define themselves however they want.Some because of their chosen professions or advocacy not as much.A childrens teacher made a choice ro fulfill a certain societal role. Then a personal choice conflicted with society's needs for that role.Conflict ensued.Despite what people think we are not Gods to live Life without consequences.Can you live with what you have done?Can you look in the mirror ecery day and not hate the person staring back at you?Sadly some of us can't.May this conflicted soul find peace ,compassion,tolerance,and understanding.They are in a better place.

bagoh20 said...

"Those who commit suicide are responsible for what they have done, which is to kill a human being"

The real tragedy in the world is the near universal crime of self-rape. Some extremely foul sexual self-assaults are taking place by the millions every day, and nothing is being done to stop it. Don't even get me started on the self-voyeurism, and self-bullying. There was a guy watching me take a shower today. The fact that he was a very attractive man did nothing to make it any less disturbing for me. I'm still shaking from it.

Jeff Teal said...

By the way it is really hard to be flippant about suicide if you have actually known someone who committed the act-successfully.But it is murder.The German word for suicide is Selbstmord.Murder of the Self.Makes me sad-not depressed-sad.There are things beyond my control.

DADvocate said...

I don't buy the gender changing thing. I don't see that physically changing your gender is needed for anybody to be who they really are or whatever. Sometimes people just need to learn to adapt or adjust rather than expect some sort of miraculous state of being by fulfilling their delusions.

Titus said...

I have worked with a couple of employees "going through the transition" and it was hell.

What was really weird is that they were these nerdy type geeks who were straight. One was an UNIX Systems Admin and another a Cytogenifist-or something like that.

Anywho, they both had to dress and be like woman for a full year before their change. Which also ment using the women's bathrooms. Every time they went to a lou a "buddy" went with them to clear the place out before the shim pinched a loaf.

Tranny's are like so gross.

Fucking freaks.

tits.

bagoh20 said...

The thing about this kind of issue is that nearly all of us would agree that there has to be a line somewhere. There has to be some personal preference that is deemed unacceptable. While I sympathize with gay rights, I think that it is the wedge that pries open Pandora's box.

The basic standards up till now were based on long running limits, and we are stepping across those lines in a big way for the first time in history.

For example, Gay marriage: Interracial marriage, while often suppressed, has been around forever, and most religions have not had a problem with it, but gay marriage has been pretty universally prohibited everywhere. This is a new line we approach. Erasing that line logically leads to nearly any combination of partners under the same arguments, and I think that will become a constant problem and fight from now on, as the line keeps moving being unable to be justified ever again.

The one man/one woman line was clear and definitive with a number of long standing rationales. While some have weakened in modernity. Crossing that line leaves almost nothing as a barrier that can be defended.

Same with this issue of transgender acceptance in all areas of life. It's just the beginning of something that I think nearly everyone will regret.

Or maybe we will go through one of those spurts of evolution and become an entirely immune to offense, tribalism, discrimination. Maybe flaps of skin will grow over our eyes... and genitals.

Titus said...

One of them didn't have a wig on but decided to grow his stringy geeky hair out and wear it in a bun. He looked like that teacher on Little House On the Prairie-what was that school marms name? Ms. Beetle or something like that? She was latin and went by the name Consuelo- I referred to her as Juana!


The other thing kind of looked like Ginger from Gilligan's Island in dress and hair and the face of Don King. I called her Tenisha but she went by Claudia.

I would prefer not to have the T in LGBT-I actually hate the term LGBT.

Titus said...

Their tits were a different size everyday-totally unacceptable.

MadisonMan said...

Children are a lot more accepting of something like a teacher morphing than parents are. I suspect children would talk about it for about 1 day.

Unless it's Junior High/Middle School.

bagoh20 said...

"By the way it is really hard to be flippant about suicide if you have actually known someone who committed the act-successfully."

Not in my case, and I've known more that one suicide "victim". Murder victims, drug overdoses, hang-gliding accidents and on and on. I can still be flippant about it all. And I expect to be a victim of such a thing myself. I hereby give everyone permission to be as flippant as you feel inspired when that happens. I'd be honored.

AReasonableMan said...

bagoh20 said...
The thing about this kind of issue is that nearly all of us would agree that there has to be a line somewhere.

The one man/one woman line was clear and definitive


You argument should be with divorce, which affects a huge swathe of society, not these tiny minorities.

bagoh20 said...

I saw a documentary once about sex change patients and their stories throughout the process. While there were time of joy and satisfaction they mostly seemed dissatisfied before during and after most of the time. A few people do seem to make the trip successfully without ever looking back, but it seems to be a minority from what I gather. Not a particularly successful medical procedure for a problem that is more than medical.

Palladian said...

While I sympathize with gay rights, I think that it is the wedge that pries open Pandora's box.

You're a filthy man.

bagoh20 said...

"You argument should be with divorce, which affects a huge swathe of society, not these tiny minorities."

Divorce is not a new line. It may be a problem, and more common than ever, but it's not changing a long-standing universal standard.

Palladian said...

While there were time of joy and satisfaction they mostly seemed dissatisfied before during and after most of the time. A few people do seem to make the trip successfully without ever looking back, but it seems to be a minority from what I gather.

That's a perfect description of life.

bagoh20 said...

"You're a filthy man."

In every sense, and with an eye toward continuing to improve the quality of my filth. One should never quit trying to be their best self.

Terry said...

Jeff Teal wrote:
By the way it is really hard to be flippant about suicide if you have actually known someone who committed the act-successfully.
I, at least, wasn't being flippant. If someone wants to change their sex, it probably means that they have serious mental issues. Instead of a cry for help, PC attitudes demand that we look at it as a problem of cultural bigotry rather than a mental disorder.

chickelit said...

Eyes on the pries

bagoh20 said...

"That's a perfect description of life."

Agreed, so the doctors should just tell people: "Look, were all miserable. You just think yours is caused by your gender. The rest of us have to deal with it, so stop looking for a cure."

bagoh20 said...

"Eyes on the pries"

That was not a typo. I actually think that's how you spell it. It was not in my dictionary, so it's as correct as any other spelling. That's the rule here.

Michael K said...

Johns Hopkins gave up transgender surgery, after being the pioneer, when it became apparent that so many of these people were emotional wrecks. Some wanted to be changed back after having surgery.

Dante said...

I don't buy the gender changing thing. I don't see that physically changing your gender is needed for anybody to be who they really are or whatever.

Sometimes, rarely, when babies come out, doctors aren't sure if they are male or female, and have to decide which gender direction to send them down. I've also read they sometimes get it wrong.

tim maguire said...

Palladian's right and, dammit, all of you stop having discussions that force me to say that Palladian's right.

There is only one person in the entire world justified in giving a damn about Lucy Meadow's sex change and that is Lucy Meadows. Everyone else with strong feelings about it is welcome to get bent.

Ann Althouse said...

I case you think it's required to have opinions on the subject, I have known individuals who have committed suicide, including a very close friend.

Jeff Teal said...

Bag of mostly water-I' m glad you can cope with the absurdities with your brand of dark humor.But sometimes the coping mechanisms fail.I've seen it happen too often to completely dismiss it anymore.

Dante said...

Guys now Gals who seem to do OK:

At Iran Proud, Transgender Miss Canada looks pretty happy.

And here's the transexual James Bond cover girl, Tula.

bagoh20 said...

My mother was married 4 times, with two divorces, so I'm clearly an example of the social decline we need to reverse. I'm a victim! You people and your crummy society have screwed me up for life. You owe me big time.

Jeff Teal said...

Professora-Sorry for your loss.Sad that we lost another soul to their own despair.

edutcher said...

Dante said...

Guys now Gals who seem to do OK:

At Iran Proud, Transgender Miss Canada looks pretty happy.


They better watch out for the Dinner Jacket.

He says there are no homosexuals in Iran.

Lydia said...

Interesting article here on why Johns Hopkins stopped performing sex-change surgery.

Its conclusion:

"As for the adults who came to us claiming to have discovered their 'true' sexual identity and to have heard about sex-change operations, we psychiatrists have been distracted from studying the causes and natures of their mental misdirections by preparing them for surgery and for a life in the other sex. We have wasted scientific and technical resources and damaged our professional credibility by collaborating with madness rather than trying to study, cure, and ultimately prevent it."

I like that "collaborating with madness". Could be applied to oh so many things, couldn't it?

Titus said...

I once heard as a child that Neenah Wisconsin was a famous tranny surgery place.

Is that true any cheeseheads?

Palladian said...

Palladian's right and, dammit, all of you stop having discussions that force me to say that Palladian's right.

Why? Ideas are ideas. Agreeing on a single point doesn't mean agreeing about everything.

With a few notable exceptions, I've agreed with almost everyone who comments here, at one time or other.

bagoh20 said...

"I' m glad you can cope with the absurdities with your brand of dark humor."

I don't see it as coping. It's just how I am. I have had a number of people close to me killed in various tragic ways and I would be faking it if I pretended that it devastates me, and makes me extremely sad. None of these people I lost would appreciate me being depressed or even spend much time sad about it. Life is now, for the living. I assume it could be me tomorrow, and I don't intend to spend my last days being upset, depressed, or even angry. That lasts maybe one day after such a tragedy. Then on with life, and that always includes humor. Maybe, I'm just a cold S.O.B., but I can't do the cloying sorrow thing, and I don't think anyone would want me to just because they are gone. I know I would hate for my death to have that effect, and I think that's true for most people.

bagoh20 said...

Because of my health issues and my idea of what's a fun activity, I'm likely to suddenly disappear from these pages sooner rather than later. When that happens, please, by all means, have fun at my expense. It's not like I'm gonna bitch about it, but that would freak you out wouldn't it? I'll try to contact this blog from the others side. So Meade, don't delete me. I'll be waiting for you if you do, and I'm gonna have some unsavory friends with me.

chickelit said...

Suicides in my family? Two cousins (half brothers) and their father. Different times and circumstances. Related?

I have so many cousins that every human trait is expressed.

AReasonableMan said...

bagoh20 said...

Divorce is not a new line. It may be a problem, and more common than ever, but it's not changing a long-standing universal standard.


You must know this is BS. Throughout the period of western history dominated by the Church, divorce was largely prohibited. Divorce was rare up until and including my parents generation.

Terry said...

Dante wrote:

Sometimes, rarely, when babies come out, doctors aren't sure if they are male or female, and have to decide which gender direction to send them down.

I hope, Dante, that you don't believe that this is generalizable to the non-congenitally-hermaphrodite population.
The APA says it has nothing to do with biology. Probably. What they are certain of is that it should not be described as a disorder, except when necessary to justify expending society's resources to correct it with surgery.

XRay said...

"This thread will be a good example of the hateful human impulse to gang attack anyone perceived as a "freak"."

No attack here, but I will say that 'in the old days' individuals with 'differences' lived on the outskirts of the village, didn't call attention to themselves, and were mostly ignored to live their life as well as they could, given societal circumstances.

I believe it is the 'everything' is normal that causes consternation in the general population nowadays. It does with me, anyways, as I'll never accept as normal a 'teacher' looking for validation of their sex change from their students as normal. That's fucked up bullshit in my opinion.

Palladian said...

That's fucked up bullshit in my opinion.

I find so much of what humans say and do to each other to be fucked-up bullshit.

In my opinion.

The Godfather said...

What interests me more than obsession with sex change is the verbal attack on the press for reporting and commenting on it. I'm not sure what "doorstepping" means, but it seems to imply harassment of the reporters, editors, etc. Yet, again based on the linked story, there's no specific allegation of misconduct by the press (I don't think the mere reference to "monstering" counts), and it's too soon to know whether the press reports had anything to do with the suicide.

DADvocate said...

Sometimes, rarely, when babies come out, doctors aren't sure if they are male or female, and have to decide which gender direction to send them down. I've also read they sometimes get it wrong.

True, I'm talking about adults who choose to change their bodies from one clearly identifiable gender to the other.

I guy I knew from high school had gender change surgery. He was 6'4", had played goalie on a minor league hockey team, quite athletic. Now he's a 6'4" trans sexual lesbian. Tell me that that was in the wrong body just wanting to get out. Absurd.

bagoh20 said...

"You must know this is BS. Throughout the period of western history dominated by the Church, divorce was largely prohibited. Divorce was rare up until and including my parents generation."

Yes rare, but there were plenty of dissolved marriages in the west and everywhere else. Not common, but infinitely more common than accepted gay marriages, or gender reversals.

I'm talking about us approaching a line that was virtually never crossed before. To quote one of the bright lights of our time: "This is a big fucking deal."

Kit said...

Sometimes people just need to learn to adapt or adjust rather than expect some sort of miraculous state of being by fulfilling their delusions.

Sometimes, maybe, but really who are we to say?

XRay said...

So then, P., from my specific example from which you quoted, out of context. Exactly what was bullshit?

XRay said...

Or, perhaps, I misunderstood you.

Mark said...

You know, Mr Upton applied for and was awarded the position. I believe Miss Meadows should have been required to re-apply with no guarantee of success, given Mr Upton had left the field.

It's really that simple.

edutcher said...

AnUnreasonableTroll said...

Divorce is not a new line. It may be a problem, and more common than ever, but it's not changing a long-standing universal standard.

You must know this is BS. Throughout the period of western history dominated by the Church, divorce was largely prohibited. Divorce was rare up until and including my parents generation.


It was also unnecessary.

You waited a year and somebody died of childbirth, being kicked by a horse, or the latest epidemic.

Pogo said...

From the new Pope, echoing bagoh:

"But there is another form of poverty! It is the spiritual poverty of our time, which afflicts the so-called richer countries particularly seriously. It is what my much-loved predecessor, Benedict XVI, called the “tyranny of relativism”, which makes everyone his own criterion and endangers the coexistence of peoples. And that brings me to a second reason for my name. Francis of Assisi tells us we should work to build peace. But there is no true peace without truth!

There cannot be true peace if everyone is his own criterion, if everyone can always claim exclusively his own rights, without at the same time caring for the good of others, of everyone, on the basis of the nature that unites every human being on this earth.
"

XRay said...

A comment of mine was there, for several refreshes, and then it wasn't, suddenly.

I don't have effort nor energy to deal with that.

Forget anything you may think I have said, P.

Palladian said...

There cannot be true peace if everyone is his own criterion, if everyone can always claim exclusively his own rights, without at the same time caring for the good of others, of everyone, on the basis of the nature that unites every human being on this earth.

Fucking socialist.

edutcher said...

All he's saying is no man is an island.

The same lesson as Buddha

AReasonableMan said...

edutcher said...
AnUnreasonableTroll said...

Divorce ... It was also unnecessary. You waited a year and somebody died of childbirth, being kicked by a horse, or the latest epidemic.


My god, you are stupid. I understand your participation on this forum is part of a court ordered mental competency program but why not try a fucking fishing forum instead. Yapping away like demented poodle at every librul that has the temerity to venture onto your lawn makes you look like a complete fucking idiot.

Inga said...

BRAVO, ARM.

Palladian, my first thought was similar to yours ( without the cussing), hearing the Pope's words.

Titus said...

Of course the Littlejohn guy is hideously looking. Fat, multiple chins, horrible hair, etc.

Once can't one of these characters be decent looking?

Bender said...

There is only one person in the entire world justified in giving a damn about Lucy Meadow's sex change and that is Lucy Meadows.

You're right. The person born as Nathan Upton is entitled to call himself whatever he wants. But this is not about his right to define his own concept of existence. This is about other people being forced to advance the lie that he is a she.

But the truth is that a man who is castrated and has the flesh taken out of his penis and the skin turned inside out and shoved up inside him is exactly that, a man who has been castrated, etc. -- he does not thereby become a woman. His inside-out penis is not a vagina.

And the monstering is not that people refuse to call a he a she, the monstering is that people are expected to become liars and say that he is a she. Well, that is all well and good for the former Nathan Upton. He can call himself whatever he wants. That's his right. But his right does not become everyone else's obligation.

Shouting Thomas said...

Jesus the Lord!

I go way to play some music and watch a basketball game and I come back to this!

I'm writing a song titled Get Offa My Lawn.

Thanks for the line about the demented poodles. I'll try to work that in.

Palladian said...

Palladian, my first thought was similar to yours ( without the cussing), hearing the Pope's words.

Fortunately, as a Protestant, I'm not bound to the fancifully distorted notions of the Bishop of Rome.

Palladian said...

Thanks for the line about the demented poodles. I'll try to work that in.

I think Zappa's already been there.

kimsch said...

AReasonableMan said...

bagoh20 said...

Divorce is not a new line. It may be a problem, and more common than ever, but it's not changing a long-standing universal standard.

You must know this is BS. Throughout the period of western history dominated by the Church, divorce was largely prohibited. Divorce was rare up until and including my parents generation.

Less common because it was more difficult. No fault divorce made it easier and more common. When one had to prove infidelity or some other fault on the part of one spouse divorce was harder to accomplish. Even when no fault started and a woman would move to Nevada for a certain period of time to establish residency for the purpose of a "quickie" divorce was more difficult than it is now.

Maybe if it wasn't so easy to terminate a marriage people would work harder on maintaining one. There are circumstances such as abuse (spousal or child) where such a marriage should be on a fast-track to termination - but the abuse should have to be provable.

Many marriages are terminated like a dating couple "breaking up"...

Shouting Thomas said...

I didn't see the relevance of the Pope's quote to sex change operations.

Somebody please explain.

Somehow, I don't think the Pope is that concerned about sex change operations since his flock probably doesn't want one.

bagoh20 said...

A marriage should be able to be dissolved by following the provisions of a contract that lays out exactly what is required of each party to end it. When those things are fulfilled, it's over. The idea that every marriage should need to be ended under the same rules is unrealistic and bound to be unfair most of the time to one party or the other.

Get the government out of our personal relationships. They can't manage their own. Let 'em get the potholes filled first.

Bender said...

A marriage should be able to be dissolved by following the provisions of a contract that lays out exactly what is required of each party to end it.

"For richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, til death do us part."

The provision in the contract permitting dissolution is death.

It is the government which comes in and interferes by permitting for dissolution by divorce.

SOJO said...

Oh my god. Are you kidding me? Those who commit suicide are responsible for killing another human being? And what kind of extreme pain have you been through Miss Annie?

What a load. They own themselves and they can off themselves any time they like without having "killed a human being." It's akin to throwing away their own property.

In any case, I feel sorry for this guy. It'd be terrible to have to live your one life in that situation whether it be DNA or environment – even if everyone were incredibly kind to you until the end of time, everywhere you went, it'd be little more than a cruel joke.

creeley23 said...

bagoh20: I'll miss you, if it comes to that. You have an oddball take that I take to.

William said...

Amputation of the penis is a permanent solution to a transient problem......I think the guy involved had a lot more problems than bad press. If you're stuck with that condition, you're going to have a very complicated and unhappy life. Choosing to be a schoolteacher seems to be a surefire way of increasing the unhappiness and complications. But maybe he was looking for the breaking point for his exit sign.....I don't know if there are any cojoined twins on this forum, but my guess is that they also have difficult lives. And that's true whether they're in circus freak shows or find dignified employment as marriage counsellors. Some conditions are just painful and difficult and societal acceptance is irrelevant.

Palladian said...

It is the government which comes in and interferes by permitting for dissolution by divorce.

Indeed, or by pretending to limit civil marriage to one man and one woman. Fucking intrusive government!

creeley23 said...

I grew up in a suicide cluster -- mother, father, stepfather, aunt, cousin and college roommate. I don't know how that happened.

I'm against suicide. I think Americans despair way too easily. I was on a suicide switchboard and we were taught to keep people on the line as long as possible because the desire to kill oneself was usually the result of a person's emotional and physical cycles hitting low points simultaneously. They would probably be OK if you got them past those low points.

On the other hand, people die, one way or another, and that's the plain fact of it. If I was in enough pain for a long enough time, I don't know what I would do either.

I don't judge. I also laugh. My sisters and I can laugh heartily about those who exited early.

It's a wild world.

Take care.

Bender said...

Likewise, if Bob and Ted want to proclaim to themselves that they are "married," they are certainly free to do so. In fact, common law marriage is based upon such self-declaration - no government needed.

But this is not about the right of two men to define their own concepts of existence and insist they are "married." This is about other people being forced to indulge in their fantasies. It is about fucking intrusive government using its power to force people to publicly say "yes" to the lie that a man and a man can be married.

Palladian said...

It's a wild world.

Take care.


Amen. I'm genetically loaded, with a family legacy of insanity and suicide, but I've managed to survive 37 years and quite a few dark nights of my soul.

Palladian said...

This is about other people being forced to indulge in their fantasies

My dear Bender, I'm also "forced" to indulge in your fantasies about God and the natural order. Again, it's called "not being an asshole". You leave me alone and I leave you alone. I don't require your approval or consent to live my life as I choose to organize it, and you don't require my approval or consent, likewise. You see, just as the secular State shouldn't require you to approve of my choices, so it also shouldn't allow you to limit my choices either.

But you and your ancient, immutable institutions are far too insecure for that degree of liberty.

Gary Rosen said...

"My god, you are stupid. I understand your participation on this forum is part of a court ordered mental competency program but why not try a fucking fishing forum instead. Yapping away like demented poodle at every librul that has the temerity to venture onto your lawn makes you look like a complete fucking idiot."


So how many people besides Inga consider this as definitive proof that ARM himself has a 3-digit IQ?

chickelit said...

So how many people besides Inga consider this as definitive proof that ARM himself has a 3-digit IQ?

My working hypothesis is that Inga and ARM are related or in cahoots.

Am I right?

chickelit said...

I prize and value the individual and defend them to the death, regardless of party; I despise co-conspiracies and seek to undermine them at every turn.

William said...

Divorce in haste, rejoice at leisure. I think that if people would take the trouble to divorce early in their marriages before there are children present, the institution of divorce would be held in greater reverence and esteem......Too many people choose to divorce when there are small children present. Divorce then is a sinful and self indulgent act. You're pretty much guaranteed to add a lot of tics and grimaces to the psyches of those kids. So divorce early or not at all.

Bender said...

I think that if people would take the trouble to divorce early in their marriages before there are children present . . .

Better still than divorcing early in marriage, people should take the trouble to divorce early before they get married.

Achilles said...

My moms twin killed herself. Left my two cousins under the age of 10 behind. Known several others who killed themselves. People say it is victimless. That is bullshit. Same vein as married people who have kids getting a divorce. Before the obvious "what about abusive relationships?" line is used why are you having kids with someone that abuses you?

People are no longer taking responsibility for their actions. Kids that are born into unstable relationships or to selfish single women are the result of the government involving itself in family matters and taking the place of fathers. Making excuses for people that kill themselves to avoid their life choices and responsibilities fits right in.

As for a tranny being a teacher? Just one more argument for privatizing education. Palladian can send kids to schools where people are taught not to be ass holes and edutcher can send his kids to schools taught by normal people. If they had kids of course.

None of these issues should divide us. They only do because the government, with no discernable constitution authority, has inserted itself into our lives at the behest of people on both sides who want to force everyone to do what they think is right.

Lia said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MayBee said...

I wouldn't have a problem with a transgendered person teaching my kids, but I do believe transgender surgery is the new lobotomy.

People are responsible for killing themselves. This new trend of blaming others for someone's suicide is dangerous. Whether its Aaron Schwarz or Ms Meadows, people are responsible for their own suicides. Blaming others, in the end, will just encourage people to follow suit rather than fight in their moment of weakness.

edutcher said...

AnUnreasonableTroll said...

It was also unnecessary. You waited a year and somebody died of childbirth, being kicked by a horse, or the latest epidemic.

My god, you are stupid. I understand your participation on this forum is part of a court ordered mental competency program but why not try a fucking fishing forum instead. Yapping away like demented poodle at every librul that has the temerity to venture onto your lawn makes you look like a complete fucking idiot.


No, not rebutting my point makes you look like the idiot.

If you think I'm wrong (if you think at all), then give a reason.

Troll can't stand anybody that gets in his face.

Inga said...

BRAVO, ARM.

and here's the She-wolf of the SS, ready to join the latest Lefty lynch mob.

AllenS said...

I can assure you, that those children in his/her class would have been laughing behind his/her back. For the longest time, I hear this: "Oh, that's just gay." To ridicule any aspect of life.

Aridog said...

Nothing in the article indicates "Lucy's" transformation over a holiday period was anything more than mental on "Nathan's" part.

No. 1...the kids would have barely stifled giggles and forever more joked about the weird teacher. Planning such a momentous change to implement over a brief holiday mid-school-year is evidence of bullshit, pure and simple....it was all about Nathan/Lucy. Waaaaagh.

No. 2...I should have thought of this merely mental decision [scam] to be a girl before I enlisted. Trust me, in 1968, there were plenty guys who would have kissed MP's and Drill Instructors if they thought just "deciding" to be a girl would be enough to get out or avoid altogether.

Erika said...

Agreed with those who voiced concern that there seems to be a trend to blame the people around a suicide. The decision to kill yourself is yours and yours alone, even if it is a response to treatment from others. It would be nice if the pendulum would swing away from finding someone else, anyone else to blame for bad decisions by individuals.

Erika said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AllenS said...

Ann Althouse said...
Those who commit suicide are responsible for what they have done, which is to kill a human being.

So, how do you feel about abortion?


Ann Althouse said...

The idea that the suicide hurts only himself is obviously wrong.

And especially in this case. Upton was, we're told, a popular teacher. The children were asked to deal with his sex change, which some people thought was too much to ask children, and now the children will need to deal with his death.

Whether hostility toward others is part of the mental state of the person who directs murderous hostility toward his own body might depend on the particular case.

Whether sex change entails hostility toward one's own body... that's a question too.

Ann Althouse said...

"So, how do you feel about abortion? "

As I've said many times on this blog, I think -- or as you put it "feel" -- that is it is killing a human being and a great moral wrong.

Ann Althouse said...

"So, how do you feel about abortion? "

As I've said many times on this blog, I think -- or as you put it "feel" -- that is it is killing a human being and a great moral wrong.

David Gray said...

"Lucy" is responsible for his own death. All Littlejohn said is what is blazingly obvious. Yes, let us sacrifice children so that sick adults may indulge themselves.

Ann Althouse said...

I also think the death penalty is morally wrong and I am opposed to euthanasia.

I recommend killing in self-defense, however.

Rusty said...

Palladian said...
It's a wild world.

Take care.

Amen. I'm genetically loaded, with a family legacy of insanity and suicide, but I've managed to survive 37 years and quite a few dark nights of my soul.

It helps if you don't take the world too seriously.
After all it doesn't take you seriously.
It is. Down at the heart of it, absurd.

Ann Althouse said...

""Lucy" is responsible for his own death. All Littlejohn said is what is blazingly obvious. Yes, let us sacrifice children so that sick adults may indulge themselves."

Bullying Littlejohn is an effort to silence debate and discussion around an important issue of public concern.

Much was asked of the children, and the lesson we're supposed to learn is that a person undergoing a sex change is so mentally fragile that all care and concern must be directed at him/her.

The person who commits suicide silences himself. It's a terrible idea to give the suicide the power to silence everyone else or to allow the threat of suicide to end debates.

AllenS said...

and now the children will need to deal with his death.

Once the sex change occurred, his death happened whether or not she lived on. The kids won't be bothered by this death, except that their laughing at his/her situation will soon fade from their memories.

AReasonableMan said...

edutcher said...

No, not rebutting my point makes you look like the idiot.


This is the problem, you don't have a point, just incessant blather at anyone you perceive as a librul. If you actually read the posts you would realize that my position on divorce is quite conservative. The decreasing stability of marriage is harmful for everyone involved. And, I don't think there is much the government can do to affect this trend.

SGT Ted said...

Terry said...
"My genitalia and hormones are wrong. I want you to remove my penis and fashion a vagina for me."

"Of course! Nature made a hash of you by giving you a penis! We'll get right on it"

"I want to kill myself"

"That's insane!"


Perfect.

MayBee said...

Bullying Littlejohn is an effort to silence debate and discussion around an important issue of public concern.

Much was asked of the children, and the lesson we're supposed to learn is that a person undergoing a sex change is so mentally fragile that all care and concern must be directed at him/her.

The person who commits suicide silences himself. It's a terrible idea to give the suicide the power to silence everyone else or to allow the threat of suicide to end debates.


Yes!

The middle paragraph Althouse wrote reminds me of the Rutgers case. We of course feel for the gay kid who couldn't handle things and killed himself, but make no tempt to understand the 19 year old who has a depressed roommate who is having trouble adjusting.

We expect so much of the people who don't know how to react to people who don't know how to react to themselves.

edutcher said...

AnUnreasonableTroll said...

No, not rebutting my point makes you look like the idiot.

This is the problem, you don't have a point, just incessant blather at anyone you perceive as a librul. If you actually read the posts you would realize that my position on divorce is quite conservative. The decreasing stability of marriage is harmful for everyone involved. And, I don't think there is much the government can do to affect this trend.


No, I made a point about the serial polygamy of widowhood and it went right past you (or under your radar). If you want, I can write in purple crayon, which is probably all Troll understands, that the real issue with divorce is that, thanks to the Lefties, people are so incredibly emotionally immature that some will divorce for any reason or no reason at all, but we have always had the phenomenon of serial polygamy.

You're still mad because I shot down your stupid Puffington-inspired point about Zero's "victory tour" and Netanyahu's "interference in the election" and his "becoming Berlusconi".

Go sulk someplace and leave the adults alone.

AReasonableMan said...

You are such a fool. Obama made Netanyahu apologize to the Turks during his visit. Everything you said was nonsense, and Netanyahu was notably weakened in the last election.

edutcher said...

And that's about all Barry was able to do, he was so busy making a fool of himself, or did you miss Netanyahu telling Little Zero Israel was always going to defend itself?

As for weakened, how weak does someone have to be if he can't "win" without an organized campaign of massive vote fraud?

As I say, Troll is just mad because somebody shot him down.

AReasonableMan said...

edutcher said...
how weak does someone have to be if he can't "win" without an organized campaign of massive vote fraud?


Ultimately this is your problem. You cannot deal with the fact that a majority of people do not agree with you on most issues. You conjure up hate and conspiracy theories and obsessively defend your little turf on Althouse to compensate. If you can't take a more rational approach you would be much better off on a fishing forum. Here you are just creating conflict without making any meaningful contribution to the discussion.

edutcher said...

And you can never rebut a proposition because you have no rebuttal.

And, if "a majority of people do not agree with you on most issues", then why, O why, do more people here seem to agree with me and not you?

The best you've got is, "Why don't you go someplace else" (what you want all the Conservatives to do), and "blah blah ad hominem blah blah you don't understand my brilliance" (no one else does, either) .

You are pathetic.

AReasonableMan said...

edutcher said...
why, O why, do more people here seem to agree with me and not you?


Well, first, this is a very conservative group, unrepresentative of the country as a whole, and second, you do not seem to get much support from your fellow conservatives since they no doubt recognize that you are not very thoughtful.

edutcher said...

Unrepresentative of the country?

40% of Americans are Conservative, the biggest ideological group in the country.

And, as I say, people here tend to agree with me far more than you.

As I say, you are pathetic.

Aridog said...

I asked before and now I'll ask again....someone, anyone, Althouse, AllenS, et al., here point me to the part of this story where it says Nathan in fact had a "sex change" other than in his own imagination? Y'all keep using the term "sex change"...it has meaning beyond "choice" in my experience.

Maybe I am missing something, but I read the linked article and nowhere in it does it say "Lucy" had any physical gender change from male to female, or whether "she" was born a hermaphrodite, among other things, such as genetic disparities [pseudohermaphrodism], impacting gender concept in a person. It simply implies that Nathan believes he was born a girl in a man's body....in Nathan's emotional opinion.

edutcher said...

If so, then he was possibly quite delusional and couldn't deal with the fact most people weren't going to indulge him.

Good point.

AllenS said...

I must confess, I didn't read the article.

I did read this: The school's headmaster had written to the parents telling them that Nathan Upton "has recently made a significant change in his life and will be transitioning to live as a woman" and would be called Lucy Meadows. And I assumed there was a sex change.

Aridog said...

AllenS ... the sex change idea was what you were supposed to think with wording by the reporter, used as post title here,...emphasis mine:

... a male teacher they have always known as Mr Upton will henceforth be a woman called Miss Meadows?"

One cannot "be a woman" if born a man without some physical change, short of hermaphroditism {dual genitals] or pseudohermaphroditism [male and female chromesomes, but one gential set, one or the other].

Anything else, short of surgical intervention, is mental or emotional choice....or it certainly seems that way to me.

AllenS said...

After reading the article about gender transitioning, I got this from wiki:

Transitioning is the process of changing one's gender presentation permanently to accord with one's internal sense of one's gender - the idea of what it means to be a man or woman. For transsexuals, this process typically involves sex reassignment therapy (which may include hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery), and their new sex is "opposite" that of birth sex; for intersex people it is different from how they were raised; for genderqueer people it is neither solely female nor male. Cross-dressers and drag queens and drag kings tend not to transition, since their variant gender presentations are (usually) only adopted temporarily.

Irregardless, my comment about the children laughing at him/her still stands whether or not the surgery happened. When all of a sudden a man that they have known shows up dressed as a woman, that action will be ridiculed.

Because that's just gay.

Aridog said...

AllenS said ...

Irregardless, my comment about the children laughing at him/her still stands whether or not the surgery happened.

Without a doubt, kids are going to be kids and mock. Period. I think I also said that.

And the article is deficient without at least a modicum of detail regarding the "change" per se.

And I also got sucked in again by a weird article with about as much reality involved as Alice's looking glass.

Dang!

PS: Partial excuse is that I know a young man who has been through gender reassignment, a failed one where the experts selected a female re-assignment in the first 12 months, and now find they've got a young man, growing whiskers, whose dick and balls they cut off.

In other words...fuck this dead "Nathan/Lucy"...the kid I know has real problems to face and work his way through. He can't just decide to "be" this or that...he already is what he physically isn't.

AllenS said...

I don't know anybody like that.

SGT Ted said...

I remember the scene in Life of Brian where the PFJ member tells everybody he wants to be a woman and how they all fell over themselves to support him, except for one who points out the obvious, he can't have babies because he hasn't got a womb.

Nowadays, the guy pointing out the obvious is a bigot and the person who thinks he is a girl is the sane one.

Aridog said...

AllenS ... I never thought I would know anyone like that either, but shit happens. In this case, the child was born to a friend and now Judi and I try to assist whenever we can. He has several hurdles to cross most of us never have to think about. So...yeah, I don't sympathize much with the mental "choice" transitions.