November 21, 2011

Prediction: Russ Feingold will run against Scott Walker in the recall election...

... if there is a recall election. I'm not predicting that the governor's antagonists will succeed in getting 540,208 signatures in 60 days, which is what they need to force an election. Once they've snapped up the easy signatures in Madison they've got to venture out to chillier places. For example, at yesterday's Packer game:


(Ha ha. The last guy in that video is great)

I'm only saying that if they get the signatures, Russ Feingold — despite repeated statements to the contrary — will step forward and run to take the governorship away from Scott Walker.

The fact that the signature effort may fail is just one of the reasons why Russ Feingold has taken the official position that he will not run. Yes, some people might be more willing to sign the recall petition if they knew the strongest-polling Democrat was ready to go, but the signature-gathering-effort would turn into a discussion about whether Feingold is preferable to Walker, and — as I read Feingold's mind — Feingold would prefer for people to leave him out of it and concentrate on how bad Scott Walker is.

By disclaiming the desire to take power, Feingold is able to present himself as a statesman, appearing at numerous anti-Walker events to bolster the morale of the protesters and, seemingly selflessly,  to criticize Walker. Here he was at Saturday's recall rally. Here he was at the Walkerville protest in June. And here he was embodying the Wisconsin protests for Netroots Nation people. That was back in March, before he'd done much at Wisconsin protests (oddly enough!), but when folks outside of Wisconsin, like FireDogLake, were straining to connect Feingold to the protests. FireDogLake noted that "practically every rally in Madison has included some variant of a 'Feingold for Governor' sign."

Back then, Feingold had only appeared at — I think — one anti-Walker protest: On February 18th, he marched with some firefighters. That was 2 days after he announced that he was starting a new organization called "Progressives United" (which hasn't made much... progress), about a month after he signed on to teach "Current Legal Issues: The U.S. Senate" at Marquette Law School, and 3 months after he was humiliated by the loss of his Senate seat to a political newby, the tea partier Ron Johnson.

As the protest season unrolled, and Walker-haters chanted "Recall Walker" and carried signs picturing Feingold with the slogan "This is what a Governor looks like," Feingold had to be careful not to look too eager to grab the governorship. Under Wisconsin law, there could not be a recall election until early 2012, and the time-line had to be managed. Feingold figured out — I'm guessing — that he needed to stay in the background, act as though he wanted nothing for himself, and let the demand build. People would have to beg to run.

If and when the recall Walker campaign come to fruition, there will be a painful, embarrassing dearth of willing Democratic candidates. The cry will reach a crescendo: Help us, Russ Feingold, you're our only hope!

And then, not for himself, not because he lost the Senate seat, not because he'd like to set himself up for a run at the presidency in 2016, but humbly, out of a pressing sense of duty, for the sake of the People of Wisconsin, Reluctant Russ will step forward. Oh, the liberal love that will gush forth that day!

Will he win? I don't know. He could be rehumiliated. First, that tea partier Ron Johnson, and next, that weasel Walker!

But what else can Feingold do with himself? Teach more courses about law and politics at Marquette? No, he has big ambitions, and the most ambitious path leads to the presidency. Russ wanted the presidency in 2008, (and his campaign collapsed early). What is the one thing that would — by far — help launch Feingold to the presidency if anything is going to launch him? Executive experience — successful executive experience — running a state.

He can't wait until 2014 — when Walker's term runs out — to run for governor. He must have realized that when he lost his Senate seat. This recall is exactly what he needs to restore his political career. Note that he declined to run for the Senate seat Herb Kohl is vacating. Why? I think it's that he already had fixed his ambition on the governor position. Why? It would be too small an accomplishment to crawl back to the Senate, where Ron Johnson is sitting in his seat. And the Senate is not a good path to the presidency. Feingold learned that the last time around, in the 2008 campaign. You need executive experience (or you need to be Barack Obama). Senator doesn't cut it. Especially for 2016, after Barack Obama.

So you take over as Governor of Wisconsin. You bring peace to our state after all of this discord. The liberals lapse into a snooze of bliss. Realistically, they know you can't do anything, because the Republicans hold the legislature. All you need to be is our dear Russ, the liberal, who ended the pain that was Scott Walker. While the liberals are sated and sleeping it off, Russ will build his new reputation. He'll demonstrate bipartisanship, working with the Republican legislature, gathering in a few symbolic accomplishments. The economic outlook will probably brighten — with Walker's reforms remaining in place — and Governor Feingold will glow over every tick upward. Feingold will seem so mature and moderate, so responsible and effective, so intelligent... so excellent!

Blah blah blah...  

President Feingold!!!

147 comments:

MadisonMan said...

Is this the conspiracy theory you talked about around Halloween?

purplepenquin said...

There's been little doubt in my mind that the recall election will be held, but all bets are off on Walker winning or losing the race.

Hopefully, this prediction of yours is true and Feingold does end up getting into the race afterall. That would changes the odds quite a bit.

Ann Althouse said...

@MadisonMan No. That one's bigger and more interesting... a more perverse thing to be doing. That Russ will run is pretty straightforward political theater, in my view.

Ann Althouse said...

"Hopefully, this prediction of yours is true and Feingold does end up getting into the race afterall. That would changes the odds quite a bit."

The changing of the odds is the substance of the sense of duty that will press down upon Reluctant Russ.

m stone said...

Feingold would prefer for people to leave him out of it and concentrate on how bad Scott Walker is.

True to a point, but Feingold is a smart pol who won't commit until his odds improve: a successful and solid recall turnout.

Every senator---and ex---is an oddsmaker.

traditionalguy said...

Feingold is the valiant Progressive Warrior GI Joe doll, but he needs an amorphous enemy force to fight so that his principled valiancy will stand out.

Walker is not an amorphous enough enemy. Walker merely rescued public education in Wisconsin from suicide by Union.

Walker needs to do something that sounds evil.

Come on Garage. Think of some crimes to accuse the Governor of besides doing the voter's will.

ndspinelli said...

Firstly, I didn't know Marge Gunderson was doing local news..she was such a good cop.

Fans resent politicians @ games. When introduced they almost invariably boo. The only pol who knew how to use the crowds well was Sen. Proxmire. When I first moved here he would be outside Brewer and Packer games. Proxmire would simply shake you hand and introduce himself. People would shake his hand, smile, and walk on.

MadisonMan said...

Feingold as a candidate gets a big "Meh" from me. I know the people in the Democratic Party who are a little bit to my left would swoon, but I'd prefer fresh ideas. (I know, I know, fresh ideas from a Political party just won't happen).

Feingold can be earnest and likeable..but not when he's appealing to Unions, in which case he sounds a little too shrill, IMO, and shrill is not electable. So he'd have to tack to the center if he runs, but the problem with that is all the video of him in the middle of the "troubles" sounding shrill and unexective-y.

purplepenquin said...

The changing of the odds is the substance of the sense of duty that will press down upon Reluctant Russ

If more people in the GOP had a sense of duty then they would be urging the most polarizing governor in the history of our state to resign rather than face a recall election.

Walker is too disruptive for our state, and he needs to go. And yes this is about Walker, not the Political Party he is a member of. I'd vote for Tommy if he changed his mind about the Senate and decided to give a primary challenge in the upcoming recall election...

Fen said...

"And without missing a beat, Feingold pivoted and damned the GOP for politicizing Wisconsin's debt crisis."

What a hypocrite. Whenever I see pols of Riss Feingold's ilk, I am reminded that the Athenian experiment with Direct Democracy failed because of corrupt demogouges and sophists like him.

Petunia said...

Feingold's unelectable as president. Far too partisan, and after Obama the electorate won't pick a far-left loon again for awhile. Feingold is far too left for even the appearance of bipartisanship.

If he were to run against Walker, he might actually win, because the left is so deranged they'll vote for anyone who runs against Walker. After all, 750,000 people were dumb enough to vote for Kloppenburg.

I don't think Feingold will run against Walker, though, since there's a good chance he'd lose, and that would put an end to any presidential ambitions he might have.

Fen said...

PurpleLibtard: If more people in the GOP had a sense of duty then they would be urging the most polarizing governor in the history of our state to resign rather than face a recall election.

*snicker*

Walker is too disruptive for our state,

Agreed. But Walker should be the one to stay. The rest of you parasites who have become so disruptive over losing your collective bargaining scam should be the ones to leave.

I'm sure the Fleabaggers can give you tips on where to scurry off to.

The Crack Emcee said...

I think you're right but "President Feingold!!!"?

If he's thinking that he's delusional,...

Curious George said...

If he does, and loses, his career is officially over. Done. Kaput.

I'm not sure he wants to gamble all that on a six week campaign.

And sure the Madison liberals will love him...but the rest of the state just gave him a big ole "fuck you". And that's after he tried to tack to the middle...can he do that and keep the libs excited?

He's going to have to take a strong pro-union position. Will the rest of the state be open to the taxation that will follow?

He is a big choo-choo supporter...is that a winning position?

Of course if he does and wins th life he saves will be PurplePenguins! No regularly scheduled lunches or beaks can be deadly. Why you ask? We don't know. It won't say. We just have to trust and recall a Governor.

Petunia said...

The only reason Walker is so polarizing is that he had the guts finally to bring the public unions under control after decades of their ripping off the taxpayers of this state, and the response of the unions and their supporters was to throw a tantrum.

The union heads are the ones who should resign, not Walker.

Kit said...

I don’t disagree that it’s smart for the dems to be ambiguous, at this point – potential, dream candidates always poll better than specific candidates. It’ll help get signatures and Feingold is playing that hand pretty well. I don’t doubt that he might reconsider, but this is a guy, who pretty stubbornly, sticks to his guns. He could put himself out there, right now, get the same effect, but he hasn’t. My guess, is if things fall right for the dems, he could maybe, maybe, at best, be talked in being a place-holder and to let the bench develop for the next regular election. I don’t think he has the long term aspirations you paint.

Allie said...

From Althouse's lips to.....

But she will be proven wrong, he's not going to run.

dreams said...

I think Althouse has it figured out.

garage mahal said...

This post has a "I know what Hillary is really thinking!" vibe to it. I wish Feingold would run, but he isn't going to.

The contrast I want to see is a cantankerous familiar older statesman like Dave Obey finally having enough, calling a family meeting, and sending this juvenile delinquent off to boarding school where he belongs.

Triangle Man said...

@Althouse

Your speculation that Feingold will be the candidate has given me the extra motivation I needed to go sign a recall petition. Thanks!

John Althouse Cohen said...

You need executive experience (or you need to be Barack Obama).

The two candidates who came closest to beating Senator Obama were Senator McCain and Senator Clinton. So Obama being Senator wasn't just a fluke.

alan markus said...

Nice post - lot of speculation to ponder.

A few thoughts:

You bring peace to our state after all of this discord.:

Probably yes, but only because one can count on Republicans and conservatives and independents to not pull the stunts that WI has been subjected to this past year. Imagine if that table were turned. Governor Doyle got away with way too much because of that - maybe that won't happen again.

Another variable to the equation is this:

There must be any number of current and former WI Democrat politicians who might fancy themselves as Governor some day and take this opportunity to "grab the brass ring". Imagine some out-state "hack" politician (or a few) running and necessitating a primary. Then imagine all those Walker supporters voting for someone opposing Feingold. Imagine Feingold losing the primary to some current/former state legislator. Oh, the humility!

Jay said...

then they would be urging the most polarizing governor in the history of our state to resign rather than face a recall election.


That is laugh out loud funny.

Aw, are you still all mad that you have to contribute a tiny fraction to your pension now?

Poor baby.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

The woman/teacher near the end perfectly encapsulates the simplistic and wrong opinion of many that feel the governor should be recalled.

Ignorance, unfortunately, is our most plentiful resource.

Bob Ellison said...

Great word, "rehumiliated"! It sounds like a climate-control system.

Calypso Facto said...

Kind of what I've figured all along as well: Russ will be "compelled" to humbly offer his services out of what he'll call a feeling of duty to the People of Wisconsin (so long as a strong recall signature turnout convinces him he can win).

But just like in 2010, the tripling of the Federal debt while he was a sitting member of the Senate is a big albatross around his neck outside of State-Employee-opolis (Madison) or Food-Share-istan (Milwaukee). He has zero credibility on the number one Wisconsin issue: balancing the budget.

MadisonMan said...

Having watched the video, I'll say that if I were governor, I'd never sign a bill with multiple pens.

That would be part of my platform.

People who supported the passage of a bill would just get the satisfaction of the bill's passage, and not some fool ceremonial pen.

Calypso Facto said...

...sending this juvenile delinquent off to boarding school where he belongs...

Just like Obey did to that young Republican challenger Sean Duffy! Oh...wait...that's right. He quit in the face of that challenge.

garage mahal said...

Yea right Calypso. After 21 consecutive terms, Obey quit because of Sean Duffy running? Good one.

Sorun said...

The social worker: "I believe he's representing the private sector only, and not considering the common people."

Apparently, there's some difference between the private sector and the "common people."

The anti-Walker people in the video appear to have IQs about 40 points below the pro-Walker people. Not a surprise.

Petunia said...

So why didn't Obey run again? It's not like he's retired now, or that he didn't have enough power where he was. If he was such a shoo-in, he wouldn't even have needed to campaign much.

Ann Althouse said...

MadisonMan said..."Feingold as a candidate gets a big "Meh" from me. I know the people in the Democratic Party who are a little bit to my left would swoon, but I'd prefer fresh ideas. (I know, I know, fresh ideas from a Political party just won't happen)."

Who is the fresh-ideas Democrat for the recall election? There's no one! Walker had fresh ideas. The Democrats want old ideas. They are the reactionaries here. Face that. Be honest!

"Feingold can be earnest and likeable..but not when he's appealing to Unions, in which case he sounds a little too shrill, IMO, and shrill is not electable. So he'd have to tack to the center if he runs, but the problem with that is all the video of him in the middle of the "troubles" sounding shrill and unexective-y."

He'll have to find an appropriate attitude, which I think will be calmness, maturity, stability, fairness, sensibility, etc. etc. The left-liberals will still love him.

purplepenquin said... "'The changing of the odds is the substance of the sense of duty that will press down upon Reluctant Russ' If more people in the GOP had a sense of duty then they would be urging the most polarizing governor in the history of our state to resign rather than face a recall election."

LOL. I think you missed some sarcasm! I'm speaking of the theatrical presentation of Reluctant Russ's emergence into the campaign.

"Walker is too disruptive for our state, and he needs to go. And yes this is about Walker, not the Political Party he is a member of."

And when there's a Democrat in office, do you promise to take the same position if Tea Parties encamp at the Capitol and bang drums and chant? You will blame that new Governor for being so disruptive? Right? Promise?

Petunia said... "Feingold's unelectable as president. Far too partisan, and after Obama the electorate won't pick a far-left loon again for awhile. Feingold is far too left for even the appearance of bipartisanship."

That's why he needs to become Governor and reinvent his image. That's the plan in the scenario I paint.

"I don't think Feingold will run against Walker, though, since there's a good chance he'd lose, and that would put an end to any presidential ambitions he might have."

His getting to the presidency is a long shot. What better path can he see open? Remember this is about analyzing his thoughts about running in the recall election, his motivations, not whether he will succeed. He wants to be President, but it's extremely unlikely. Is there any path open? Ah! Yes! He sees a clearing up ahead! Go toward the light!

edutcher said...

Since she's become a media star, Ann's turned into such a cynic.

John Althouse Cohen said...

You need executive experience (or you need to be Barack Obama).

The two candidates who came closest to beating Senator Obama were Senator McCain and Senator Clinton. So Obama being Senator wasn't just a fluke.


I'd argue that neither GodZero nor the Hildabeast were really Senators, but it was one of those harmonic convergences where all the real choices had already been eliminated.

After this, it should be another 50 years before we make a member of Congress POTUS and another 150 before we make somebody from IL TOTUS.

purplepenquin said...

Aw, are you still all mad that you have to contribute a tiny fraction to your pension now?

Despite what you've been told, not every union that contracts with the city/county/state gets a pension. Or healthcare. Or sickdays.

Like I've said many times, I ain't against Walker 'cause he cut the pay/benefits for other workers...rather I say he has to go because he has made it illegal for workers to negotiate safety rules and workplace conditions into contracts with gov't agencies.

So yeah, I am mad that Walker has made it more dangerous for me and my co-workers to earn a living. Wouldn't you be upset with someone who made your workplace less safe?

MadisonMan said...

And when there's a Democrat in office, do you promise to take the same position if Tea Parties encamp at the Capitol and bang drums and chant?

I will. Guaranteed right there in the Constitution of this great State.

I notice you said When and not If.

Petunia said...

Wisconsin has some of the strongest worker-protection laws in the country, and their existence long predates collective bargaining.

Not to mention federal worker-protection laws.

Did those go away too? No? Didn't think so.

garage mahal said...

And when there's a Democrat in office, do you promise to take the same position if Tea Parties encamp at the Capitol and bang drums and chant?

You won't see the Tea Party doing anything that strenuous for one thing, and they already have the McIver Institute, lying Charlie Sykes, Americans for Prosperity, Club for Growth, Media Trackers, Wisconsin Reporter, and the Bradley Foundation to do all the work for them.

E.M. Davis said...

After 21 consecutive terms

Citizen legislators, my ass.

AJ Lynch said...

Feingold probably misses his govt paycheck.

E.M. Davis said...

rather I say he has to go because he has made it illegal for workers to negotiate safety rules and workplace conditions into contracts with gov't agencies.

Link?

E.M. Davis said...

most polarizing governor

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Sorun said...

So yeah, I am mad that Walker has made it more dangerous for me and my co-workers to earn a living.

Tell us more about your workplace dangers, Purple Penquin, and how Walker made it more dangerous.

Alex said...

The reason you see so few TP protests compared to OWS/union is because TPers work for a living unlike those unemployed, dirty lazy hippies funded by the Soros/MM machine.

E.M. Davis said...

position if Tea Parties encamp at the Capitol and bang drums and chant?

Most of them will be too busy working, and will only be able to come down on weekends.

But at least they'll clean up after themselves.

Alex said...

So yeah, I am mad that Walker has made it more dangerous for me and my co-workers to earn a living.

Proof by assertion.

Alex said...

Tea Partiers are actual h. sapiens they don't bang on drums like wild howler monkeys.

Curious George said...

"purplepenquin said...

Like I've said many times, I ain't against Walker 'cause he cut the pay/benefits for other workers...rather I say he has to go because he has made it illegal for workers to negotiate safety rules and workplace conditions into contracts with gov't agencies.

So yeah, I am mad that Walker has made it more dangerous for me and my co-workers to earn a living. Wouldn't you be upset with someone who made your workplace less safe?"

And just to repeat, the pp means no guaranteed regularly scheduled lunches and breaks. Those are the "safety rules and workplace conditions" at issue.

Seriously.

Does the pp get these today? We don't know.

Alex said...

Poor Reluctant Russ.

yoobee said...

@John Althouse Cohen

Actually, it is somewhat of a fluke. Before Obama, the last senator to be elected President was Nixon. Only five of the last fifteen presidents (back to 1923) were former senators.

I think Hillary is an arguable choice to prove your point, since she campaigned for President on the Executive experience she obtained as First Lady. In fact, most of her campaign for the Senate in New York was based on her celebrity as the former First Lady.

Historically, senators don't fare well in presidential elections, and Obama had a number of other factors (such as a polarizing incumbent and a base that was more energized than usual) that contributed to his election.

Canuck said...

"most polarizing governor"

"You say that like it's a bad thing."

Depends. But live by the sword, die by the sword.

I got no patience for complaints by the sword.

Interesting comments about Feingold. Will watch with interest to see what happens.

Alex said...

Actually, it is somewhat of a fluke. Before Obama, the last senator to be elected President was Nixon.

Actually Nixon had attained VP before winning President. The last sitting Senator to be elected POTUS was JFK.

garage mahal said...

Most of them will be too busy working, and will only be able to come down on weekends.

They seemed to have all kinds of time during the health care townhalls held during the week. Remember?

Alex said...

They seemed to have all kinds of time during the health care townhalls held during the week. Remember?

So what garage - what is your point? The right wing is not allowed to protest your precious God?

edutcher said...

garage mahal said...

And when there's a Democrat in office, do you promise to take the same position if Tea Parties encamp at the Capitol and bang drums and chant?

You won't see the Tea Party doing anything that strenuous for one thing, and they already have the McIver Institute, lying Charlie Sykes, Americans for Prosperity, Club for Growth, Media Trackers, Wisconsin Reporter, and the Bradley Foundation to do all the work for them.


As opposed to the Demos with the AFL-CIO, SEIU, ACORN, MoveOn, Dr Evil, The Establishment Media, GodZero, Big Sis, Holder, the IRS...

Calypso Facto said...

Yea right Calypso. After 21 consecutive terms, Obey quit because of Sean Duffy running? Good one.

Oh? The fact that Obey paid a polling research firm $30 grand right before he made his announcement was just coincidence, right? You think he was just overwhelmed with all the good news they had to give him?

Canuck said...

"rather I say he has to go because he has made it illegal for workers to negotiate safety rules and workplace conditions into contracts with gov't agencies."

"Link?"

Is there confusion on this point? It's pretty well established what can be negotiated in the new law.

MadisonMan said...

Feingold probably misses his govt paycheck.

Wouldn't he be drawing a nice Senatorial Pension now?

Alex said...

Canuck - maybe it's true that non public safety government employees can't negotiate for workplace conditions. But so fucking what? That's their fucking problem, not mine. They should find a job in a place that wants them. Go flip a burger or something you fucktard.

"Some day a rain is going to come and wash away all the scum" - Taxi Driver.

Scott M said...

They seemed to have all kinds of time during the health care townhalls held during the week. Remember?

Hysterical inapt comparison. All of the townhalls here were in the mid-to-late afternoon or in the evenings starting at 6pm. If you care about something enough to go to a Townhall, and your boss is like-minded, you'll have no problem getting out of work for a one-off event like that.

yoobee said...

@Alex

Good catch. That is what I meant to say.

Triangle Man said...

Aw, are you still all mad that you have to contribute a tiny fraction to your pension now?

That tiny fraction took $10,000 a year out of the pocket of Althouse.

Christopher in MA said...

"President Feingold."

I can hear the campaign song now:

They needed a man who was brave and strong,
To rid the town of crime -
Feingold!
That's I'm!

purplepenquin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chuck66 said...

Triangle man, my brother was laid off recently from his real world job and that cost him $45,000 a year. He will be very happy to change places with you. He can do you little government job and contribute to his generous benefits, and you can be unemployed this Thanksgiving and be out looking for a job.

Carol_Herman said...

That's hysterical!

Whose gonna donate the money? The unions? When did they have their last real victory?

Even the John Deere plant WON. While they had unionistas sitting in front of their gate for TWO YEARS!

Oh, and the union funded Occupy Wall Street was an utter failure!

But, of course, Russ Feingold will run! He's a born politician ... who actually lost his seat in congress.

For further news like that ... wait for 2012 ... as other "old timers" get knocked over. Others? Will race to the exits, first.

You want a campaign against Russ Feingold? PRINT HIS PENSION NUMBERS!

Here's my guess. Russ Feingold gets $4-million a YEAR!

You think that number can be kept secret? (Okay. I pulled the number out of my ass. But the senator's pension will open plenty of eyelids. IF IT WAS KNOWN.)

purplepenquin said...

And just to repeat, the pp means no guaranteed regularly scheduled lunches and breaks. Those are the "safety rules and workplace conditions" at issue.

Uhm, nope. That isn't the whole issue at hand but rather one simple example I gave in an earlier thread. Like I said then, often times the work we do can be very physically demanding while still needing to be very mentally aware. I know that getting worn out ain't that big of a deal when you're sitting at a desk all day, but it is a whole different story when you're doing some dangerous shit with heavy items (often time high-voltage as well) with some of the crew suspended in the air above you. (being a non-flying bird, I tend to stay on the ground.)

Other job-specific items we have in our contracts involve rigging/climbing conditions, rules regarding thunderstorms/adverse weather while working outside, and turn-around time between work calls.

Again, I totally understand how someone who works in an office setting (NTTAWWT, of course! Done it myself for many a year) would have a hard groking the concept that not every safety issue in every profession is covered via OSHA or state law. But the lawmakers and civil servants don't always think of every situation, and specific clauses are sometimes needed for specific trades/industries.

And yes, I also totally understand that some partisan hacks are probably now gonna play the "Oh boo-hoo, you just don't want to work in the rain!" card. That's fine...haters gonna hate...but I am just trying to explain to the reasonable folks that collective bargaining goes way beyond just $$$. Hopefully this helps shed some light on why me and my co-workers have the concerns that we do.

Canuck said...

"Canuck - maybe it's true that non public safety government employees can't negotiate for workplace conditions. But so fucking what? That's their fucking problem, not mine."

Not mine either. I don't live in the state. But it is Purple Penguin's business and it's an issue for the people of Wisconsin.

Facts are stubborn things. Let's get a link if Purple Penguin can still negotiate for safety.

If he lost the right to negotiate for job safety, well, nobody should be surprised if he's not pleased with his governor.

Jay said...

Triangle Man said...

That tiny fraction took $10,000 a year out of the pocket of Althouse.


Really?

I'd love to see some proof of that assertion.

AllenS said...

I worked for a non union shop, and we had plenty of safety rules. The thought that you have to have a union so there are safety rules in place is idiotic. Not to mention stupid.

Canuck said...

"I worked for a non union shop, and we had plenty of safety rules. The thought that you have to have a union so there are safety rules in place is idiotic. Not to mention stupid."

The oil patch in Canada is not unionized. It's quite dangerous to work there.

Guys can make a lot of $$$, but it's a big risk. No doubt unions can make things safer.

AllenS said...

Dangerous work, is dangerous work. Whether there is a union or not. I put a steel roof on my house that had very steep pitches. I didn't need a union to figure out that I needed to use safety ropes.

Calypso Facto said...

No doubt unions can make things safer.

Or not. We've imported many policies from our non-union shops to our union facilities. Good ideas come from many sources.

The fallacy of PP's argument is that just because safety measures can't be codified in a public union contract anymore doesn't mean there won't still be safety policies and procedures.

AllenS said...

There are enough lawyers around to ensure that if you are injured at work, union or non-union shop, there'll be a settlement big enough to satisfy the injured party. Believe me, non-union shops know this.

purplepenquin said...

The fallacy of PP's argument is that just because safety measures can't be codified in a public union contract anymore doesn't mean there won't still be safety policies and procedures

Difference being, of course, that one can be contractually enforced and the other is merely a suggested way of doing things.

Jay said...

"purplepenquin said...

Like I've said many times, I ain't against Walker 'cause he cut the pay/benefits for other workers...rather I say he has to go because he has made it illegal for workers to negotiate safety rules and workplace conditions into contracts with gov't agencies.

So yeah, I am mad that Walker has made it more dangerous for me and my co-workers to earn a living. Wouldn't you be upset with someone who made your workplace less safe?"


You are a bald faced liar.

AllenS said...

purplepenquin said...
Difference being, of course, that one can be contractually enforced and the other is merely a suggested way of doing things.

Bullshit. There are plenty of work place rules in any non-union shop.

Scott M said...

Bullshit. There are plenty of work place rules in any non-union shop.

With those that, if not followed, can end in termination.

AllenS said...

You've got that right, Scott. Easier to fire a non-union employee for not following the rules than a union worker.

Curious George said...

PP, do you work for a public union?

E.M. Davis said...

..but I am just trying to explain to the reasonable folks that collective bargaining goes way beyond just $$$.

All we're asking for is specifics. I'm not sure I know where to look.

Curious George said...

"purplepenquin said...

Difference being, of course, that one can be contractually enforced and the other is merely a suggested way of doing things."

Uh, no. Sorry. An amendment was added to the BRB and is now part of WI Law:

66.0509  Civil service system; veterans preference.
(1) Any city or village may proceed under s. 61.34 (1), 62.11 (5) or 66.0101 to establish a civil service system of selection, tenure and status, and the system may be made applicable to all municipal personnel except the chief executive and members of the governing body, members of boards and commissions including election officials, employees subject to s. 62.13, members of the judiciary and supervisors. Any town may establish a civil service system under this subsection. For veterans there shall be no restrictions as to age, and veterans and their spouses shall be given preference points in accordance with s. 230.16 (7). The system may also include uniform provisions in respect to attendance, leave regulations, compensation and payrolls for all personnel included in the system. The governing body of any city, village or town establishing a civil service system under this section may exempt from the system the librarians and assistants subject to s. 43.09 (1).

(1m) 
(a) A local governmental unit, as defined in s. 66.0131 (1) (a), that does not have a civil service system on June 29, 2011, ,shall establish a grievance system not later than October 1, 2011.
(b) To comply with the grievance system that is required under par. (a), a local governmental unit may establish either a civil service system under any provision authorized by law, to the greatest extent practicable, if no specific provision for the creation of a civil service system applies to that local governmental unit, or establish a grievance procedure as described under par. (d).
(c) Any civil service system that is established under any provision of law, and any grievance procedure that is created under this subsection, shall contain at least all of the following provisions:
1. A grievance procedure that addresses employee terminations.
2. Employee discipline.
3. Workplace safety.
(d) If a local governmental unit creates a grievance procedure under this subsection, the procedure shall contain at least all of the following elements:
1. A written document specifying the process that a grievant and an employer must follow.
2. A hearing before an impartial hearing officer.
3. An appeal process in which the highest level of appeal is the governing body of the local governmental unit.

(e) If an employee of a local governmental unit is covered by a civil service system on June 29, 2011, and if that system contains provisions that address the provisions specified in par. (c), the provisions that apply to the employee under his or her existing civil service system continue to apply to that employee.

So stop your bullshitting and crocodile tears. And START endorsing Walker because he has your back. If your local governing body doesn' give a rat's as about your safety then RECALL THEM.

David Blaska said...

A big question for Feingold and all Democrats who would replace Walker: what would they do different? Or, exactly how much would they increase taxes?

Scott M said...

what would they do different? Or, exactly how much would they increase taxes?

Raising taxes isn't doing anything different for the Democrats.

Chip S. said...

Now I'm really curious about the penquin's job.

He's already told us that regularly scheduled, not-too-short lunch breaks are essential for safety, which indicates that he works by day.

He's now added that this dangerous job requires a high degree of mental alertness. The safety of the penquin and his co-workers hinges on it. He is no desk jockey.

And yet he's been posting in this thread at regular intervals since 9:30 this morning.

Sounds like someone's not paying complete attention to his very hazardous job, thereby recklessly endangering others.

Scott M said...

Now I'm really curious about the penquin's job.

He and his crew worked on the Indiana State Fair concert stage. I thought he mentioned that already.

Curious George said...

"Chip S. said...
Now I'm really curious about the penquin's job."

I don't think that the penguin works for a public union at all. Sounds like her (I think she is a she) company contracts with the local and state governments. So her union can negotiate safety rules.

AllenS said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
purplepenquin said...

Nowhere in that amendment that CurioGeo copied/pasted does it spell out any actual workplace safety issues. All it does is says that "workplace safety" is something that is allowed to be filed under a grievance system. It is silent in regards to what those rules are, nor even how they are to be determined.

Some lawyers across the state have opined that the law even makes it illegal for the governing agency to seek input from the workers in regards to safety issues. I'm not licensed to practice law in this state, so I'm not gonna issue my own opinion one-way-or-the-other about that detail....but there are several school districts that are acting according to that legal advice.

Again, I'd like to mention that nobody is suggesting that all the rules will simply vanish if they aren't in the contract but rather that it is much easier for an employee to ignore their own rules/procedures than it is for an employee to ignore a contractual obligation.

Curious George said...

"Scott M said...
He and his crew worked on the Indiana State Fair concert stage. I thought he mentioned that already."

Heckava job Penguin

garage mahal said...

I wonder why Purple Penguin doesn't want to disclose details where he/she works?

Jay said...

Some lawyers across the state have opined that the law even makes it illegal for the governing agency to seek input from the workers in regards to safety issues.

So what?

By the way, I find it comical you're able to post here all day despite working this "dangerous" job that Gov Walker has made even less safe.

Oh, you're lying.

Never mind.

ricpic said...

purplepenquin said...

Walker is too disruptive for our state...

Translation: the SOB dared to thwart MY WILL #%@#!!!

purplepenquin said...

And yet he's been posting in this thread at regular intervals since 9:30 this morning

Dude ain't allowed a day off?

Jeeesh...and ya'll wonder why we want the protection that organized labor provides!

:D


PS - I wasn't personally at the Indiana State Fair, and I apologize if the impression given was otherwise.

AllenS said...

garage mahal said...
I wonder why Purple Penguin doesn't want to disclose details where he/she works?

He/she doesn't, just the type of work he/she is talking about. A company doesn't have to be named. It would give us some idea as to what he/she knows.

AllenS said...

Sick day?

Scott M said...

PS - I wasn't personally at the Indiana State Fair, and I apologize if the impression given was otherwise.

It was snark, I say, snark, son.

purplepenquin said...

Anyone else surprised that CurioGeo would use a video of people dying as a way to make some sort of cheap shot against me personally?

Like I said in a different thread, the amount of evil in some peoples' hearts never ceases to amaze me....

Chip S. said...

Dude ain't allowed a day off?

Let's see...there's today, and last Friday was another big posting day for you; did you also have Sat. and Sun. off?

Whether your job is dangerous or not, I'm starting to believe that it's government work.

Now my break is over, so it's back to the sweat shop for me.

purplepenquin said...

Really? You're gonna try and bust my balls 'cause my work schedule doesn't fit your perception of what you envision it to be?

That is REALLY what this has come to?

*rolls eyes*

Ya'll are sad clowns...which are the scariest kind.

Chip S. said...

There's no crying at Althouse, penq.

Your entire justification for an expensive recall election is that Walker's reforms have endangered you and your coworkers. People have questioned various aspects of your claims. You consistently offer only a vague reply. When that fails to persuade people, you complain that they're being mean to you, or just inhumane in general.

None of this would happen if you didn't base your argument completely on your unverifiable assertions of fact.

Now I'm gonna be late getting back to work.

I blame you. ;)

Don't Tread 2012 said...

WTF?

Has anyone seen this video purporting an exchange of a bogus signature for the 'recall' of the WI governor for smokes?

Do kids vote in WI?

Joe said...

"Some lawyers across the state have opined that..."

The last refuge of a scoundrel is prefacing statements with "some", "claim", "I've been told" and so forth.

MadisonMan said...

Let's see...there's today, and last Friday was another big posting day for you; did you also have Sat. and Sun. off?

It is hunting season.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

Just what we need. Another Senator who thinks he can run something beyond his own campaign. Let's face it, Rusty isn't qualified to run a Chuck E. Cheese much less Wisconsin state government.

Don't Tread 2012 said...

9 out of 10 dead voters vote democrat.

Allie said...

Garage Mahal said;
I wonder why Purple Penguin doesn't want to disclose details where he/she works?

11/21/11 1:53 PM
Yup, exactly, that's why my profile is back to being anonymous.

Curious George said...

"purplepenquin said...
Ya'll are sad clowns...which are the scariest kind."

What a steaming pile. You want to recall a governor, forcing mass debt and tax increases, on taxpayers of the state because of something that might...just might be a problem.

Even thought here is legal relief if your safety is put in jeopardy. Even thought there has not been any definitive changes in your workplace safety that you can state.

I don't think you even work for a public union, do you?

AJ Lynch said...

PP:

Jeez, you libruls think all good things can only spring forth from the govt's big ass.

If you don't have adequate workplace safety rules and safety history, I bet you could not get work comp insurance at a reasonable price. And if you can't afford insurance, you are out of business- it is as simple as that.

AllenS said...

I think that we can come to the conclusion that nothing Walker has done has made the work place unsafer.

MadisonMan said...

You want to recall a governor, forcing mass debt and tax increases,

Where is the evidence that this will happen if Walker is recalled?

Especially given that his opponent isn't even known -- for either the Republican Primary or the General Election.

Jay said...

purplepenquin said...

Really? You're gonna try and bust my balls 'cause my work schedule doesn't fit your perception of what you envision it to be?


Actually, it is just a clear indication that you're an under worked government drone.

garage mahal said...

Actually, it is just a clear indication that you're an under worked government drone.

So tell us what you do Jay that allows you to post here.

Curious George said...

"MadisonMan said...
Where is the evidence that this will happen if Walker is recalled?"

Dude, seriously? Clearly Pengiun wants to eliminate the collective baragining reforms...were do do you think the budget balancing came from?

Sofa King said...

But George, public employee unions have always been so reasonable in the past, I demand that you prove that they would ever even dream of featherbedding their contracts.

MadisonMan said...

Clearly Pengiun wants to eliminate the collective baragining reforms..

You've cracked the code, apparently. Purple Penguin is running for Governor.

Get back to me when the actual Candidate for the State Office advocates that plan -- and gets it through the Legislature.

My own opinion is that the newly elected governor -- if it's not Walker -- will not touch the Collective Bargaining laws. They certainly will not campaign on it.

garage mahal said...

My own opinion is that the newly elected governor -- if it's not Walker -- will not touch the Collective Bargaining laws. They certainly will not campaign on it.

Completely idiotic if the candidate didn't campaign on it. They will have to take a position on it whether they like it or not. Union busting isn't nearly as popular as conservatives will have you believe. Look at Ohio.

Sofa King said...

My own opinion is that the newly elected governor -- if it's not Walker -- will not touch the Collective Bargaining laws. They certainly will not campaign on it.



But, then why go through all this?

Jason said...

Completely idiotic if the candidate didn't campaign on it. They will have to take a position on it whether they like it or not. Union busting isn't nearly as popular as conservatives will have you believe. Look at Ohio.
-----------------------------------

Let me know how Scott Walker's budget bill is "union busting". Walker has done nothing to prevent people from being in unions.

Lets get real. The reason why state employees and teachers are pissed off at Walker is because he is making them pay more for the stuff they are getting.

People need to stop pretending that the loss of some collective bargaining is some straw that broke the camels back in this debate. State employees and teachers paychecks are smaller - for the first time EVER. And they cant stand it, because of the entitlement society they have been a part of their entire professional lives.

Stop dancing around it. This is all about money. And once Walker is able to show how many districts in this state have saved hundreds of thousands of taxpayers dollars without a loss of services, its an argument he is going to win. Which is why nobody wants to run.

Mark said...

Jason said:

"State employees and teachers paychecks are smaller - for the first time EVER. "

You conveniently forget the furlough days from the last couple of years.

You know, smaller paychecks from mandatory unpaid time off.

Please tell me how those smaller paychecks don't count.

Otherwise, perhaps admit you aren't from Wisconsin, have no dog in this fight, and are just spewing hateful rhetoric.

Seriously, get educated before you get opinions.

garage mahal said...

"Lets get real"

Walker had the National Guard on standby, so he knew there would be a shitstorm. And should have known a possible recall. At least some in the WIGOP tried talking him out of it, but he wouldn't listen. Now he gets to face the voters again.

sorepaw said...

Completely idiotic if the candidate didn't campaign on it. They will have to take a position on it whether they like it or not.

The unit known as Garage apparently has so little RAM that it no longer retains any output concerning the State Senate recall elections (where the Democrats conspicuously avoided campaigning on the issue of reining in public employee unions).

Jason said...

Jason said:

"State employees and teachers paychecks are smaller - for the first time EVER. "

You conveniently forget the furlough days from the last couple of years.

You know, smaller paychecks from mandatory unpaid time off.

Please tell me how those smaller paychecks don't count.

Otherwise, perhaps admit you aren't from Wisconsin, have no dog in this fight, and are just spewing hateful rhetoric.

Seriously, get educated before you get opinions.


LOL. Furlough days? Not being paid for time off? Well...duh. Most hourly people dont get paid for being off, unless they use vacation time.

I am from Wisconsin. Im a regular poster here. Stop telling me I "dont have a dog in this fight".

As far as "spewing hateful rhetoric" - Im not the one who just told someone else to "get educated before I get opinions". Oh, but thats right...you guys are above everybody else.

Its posts like yours that are the reason so many people hate unions.

sorepaw said...

Walker is too disruptive for our state, and he needs to go.

Penq, you do realize that many consider Barack Obama "too disruptive" for our United States, and are of the firm opinion that he needs to go.

But it won't kill us to wait till the next scheduled election to see whether enough of us want him kept in office.

Curious George said...

"garage mahal said...
Completely idiotic if the candidate didn't campaign on it. They will have to take a position on it whether they like it or not. Union busting isn't nearly as popular as conservatives will have you believe. Look at Ohio."

Yep, you are correct on the first part. But miss by a mile on the second. Ohio never inplemented the things Walker did. WI can see the reforms worked, and the sky didn't fall.

Ohio also included cops and firemen...so they Dems could use scare tactics there.

sorepaw said...

The contrast I want to see is a cantankerous familiar older statesman like Dave Obey finally having enough, calling a family meeting, and sending this juvenile delinquent off to boarding school where he belongs.

The architect of Porkulus, who retired so he wouldn't lose his House seat?

If the unit's programmers can't think of anyone better than David Obey, they're truly at wit's end.

garage mahal said...

The architect of Porkulus, who retired so he wouldn't lose his House seat?


Wow, Porkulus. That's some Phd quality material there. Did you come up with that all on your own? Was that upload from 2009? I think Curious George is wrong, but at least he lives here, and interacts with people that live here. You don't know shit about Wisconsin politics.

garage mahal said...

And this
The unit known as Garage apparently has so little RAM that it no longer retains any output concerning the State Senate recall elections (where the Democrats conspicuously avoided campaigning on the issue of reining in public employee unions).

Which was idiotic as well. And I have said so on numerous occasions.

hstad said...

11/21/11 4:29 PM
Blogger garage mahal said...
"...Union busting isn't nearly as popular as conservatives will have you believe. Look at Ohio."

Bullshit! If Ohio had exempted Firefighters and Police, like Wisconsin, that Prop. would have failed! Union busting my ass! Get a clue!

garage mahal said...

If Ohio had exempted Firefighters and Police, like Wisconsin, that Prop. would have failed! Union busting my ass! Get a clue!

Cops and firefighters in Wisc were/are solidly against Walker. Locally they were protesting almost everyday in Madison, and even sleeping in the Rotunda.

Jay said...

You conveniently forget the furlough days from the last couple of years.

Hilarious.

Well, if it is so bad, you could always quit, right?

Jay said...

My own opinion is that the newly elected governor -- if it's not Walker -- will not touch the Collective Bargaining laws. They certainly will not campaign on it.

So the entire point of the recall would be ____?

Michael Haz said...

That Russ Feingold believes he could one day be POTUS should disqualify him as a candidate. He's delusional.

Unless the Amnesty Bomb is dropped on America, the Obama presidency will sour Americans for many years in another far-left president.

As for his running against Walker - not going to happen. A second loss in Wisconsin electoral politics would push him out of the game forever. More likely - a federal judicial appointment, then to the Supreme Court.

hstad said...

Cops and firefighters in Wisc were/are solidly against Walker. Locally they were protesting almost everyday in Madison, and even sleeping in the Rotunda.
11/21/11 5:51 PM

You are either a simpleton or master of misdirection! Voters in Ohio voted for that Prop. because of the silly commercials scaring people about fires and crimes. Would not have worked if they where exempt!!! And no amount of sleeping in the Rotunda by police and firefighters helped persuade Wisconsin voters!!!

MadisonMan said...

But, then why go through all this?

Exactly.

Maybe my cynicism is too strong today.

Unknown said...

----And once Walker is able to show how many districts in this state have saved hundreds of thousands of taxpayers dollars without a loss of services, its an argument he is going to win. Which is why nobody wants to run. ...


It might be quibbling, but lets update this....

And NOW THAT Walker is able to show how many districts in this state have saved hundreds of thousands of taxpayers dollars without a loss of services, its an argument he IS WINNING. Which is why nobody wants to run.

Ken said...

For a long time I believed that there were two honest Democrats, Paul Wellstone and Russ Feingold. After Wellstone died his family betrayed that image with the funeral. If he raised them that way then he was as much of a crook as the rest of his party but there was still Feingold.

But since McCain-Feingold he has acted like every other left wing extremist. He's a crook. There are no honest Democrats.

Synova said...

"He only represents the private sector, not the regular people."

(Okay, if someone approached me with a microphone I'd refuse to give them a sound bite to mock me with. No one sounds intelligent in that situation.)

murgatroyd666 said...

The fact that the signature effort may fail is just one of the reasons why Russ Feingold has taken the official position that he will not run.

And that's the sort of bold, courageous leadership that Wisconsin needs!

Carol_Herman said...

Feingold's name is recognized.

In Milwaukee (where you can't see the video), there are organizers going around to CHILDREN, and getting them to sign petitions. In exchange they give them free cigarettes.

You know what? The organizers are not handing out 9000 cigarettes a day. And, some kids handwriting is so poor ... some of the signatures are gonna get "challenged."

Who will "challenge?" Walker's people.

Feingold KNOWS the recall is a flop!

PLUS, if Walker has to go through it ... by the time he's finished ... he's gonna tack on time to his current term.

He won't have to leave in the middle of his term ... to be re-sworn in ... without benefits.

Let alone, in 2012 ... Wisconsin is a TOSS UP state! Be funny to see a real blowout, then, against democraps, no?

sorepaw said...

The unit known as Garage now fails to recognize the character string "Porkulus."

I've been calling the ARRA aka the "Stimulus Package" "Porkulus" as long as I've been commenting here.

Don't know who originated it, but I've read that Rush Limbaugh used it. Can't verify that, as I don't listen to his radio show.

But since the biggest chunks of that insane piece of legislation shoveled taxed or borrowed money to every constituency and every program on every old-time Washington Democrat's wish list, "Porkulus" is the right name for it.

More recently, Barack Obama has tried to push a second, smaller stimulus package, so now I refer to Obama's failed legislation as Porkulus Jr. and its daddy from 2009 as Porkulus Sr.

Now perhaps the unit known as Garage has not been programmed to recognize that the writing of Porkulus Sr. was farmed out to the Democratic leadership in the House of Representatives, David Obey in particular.

Or perhaps the unit has been programmed to claim that David Obey retired for reasons of wanting to spend more time with his family, not because he was in danger of losing a seat he'd held for 40+ years to a Republican.

All I can say is, if my analysis of David Obey's exit from the House shows my ignorance of Wisconsin politics, my analysis of John Spratt's exit from the House shows my ignorance of South Carolina politics, my analysis of Jim Oberstar's exit from the House betrays my ignorance of Minnesota politics, my analysis of Alan Grayson's exit from the House betrays my ignorance of Florida politics, etc.

None of this will compute, for the unit known as Garage. Its programmers don't appear to recognize the existence of the 48 states not called Wisconsin or Ohio.

David said...

just say,"Thank you Scott Walker."

Allie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Allie said...

Carol Herman, the girls are over 18

Roger J. said...

Seems to me this is a Wisconsin issue--let wisconsites handle it.;

E.M. Davis said...

Voters in Ohio voted for that Prop. because of the silly commercials scaring people about fires and crimes.

To this I can attest. I saw a lot of "we won't be able to keep you safe" nonsense.

E.M. Davis said...

Nowhere in that amendment that CurioGeo copied/pasted does it spell out any actual workplace safety issues. All it does is says that "workplace safety" is something that is allowed to be filed under a grievance system.

And yet you have shown zero evidence that the previous safety-related bargaining tenets have been changed or eliminated at all.

That's what I meant by specifics ... I could care less what's in your profile or where you work.

sorepaw said...

Still waiting for the unit known as Garage to show how chalking up the defeat of Alan Grayson to his support for Porkulus Sr., Cap and Trade, ObamaReidPelosiCare, and FrankenDodd, plus his rabid denunciations of anyone who criticized these legislative initiatives, proves my ignorance of Florida politics.

Does the unit even recognize the character string "Florida politics"?