October 9, 2010

Witch! Whore!... Nazi!

A (Republican) Senate candidate has been called a witch. A (Republican) gubernatorial candidate has been called a whore. And now... a — guess which party? — House candidate is tarred with Nazi.

"Why is This GOP House Candidate Dressed as a Nazi?" You may click to see Rich Iott — posing and smiling in 5th SS Panzer Division Wiking uniform with 3 of his closest Nazi friends... I mean... with 3 of his fellow WW2 reenacters.  "It's purely historical interest in World War II." Hmm. Yeah. The high-profile article — by Joshua Green in The Atlantic — goes on, stoking your suspicion that a guy who dresses up and plays the part of Nazi has got to feel some affinity for Nazis. Sample:
Iott participated in the group under his own name, and also under the alias "Reinhard Pferdmann," which has also been removed, and which Iott described as being his German alter ego. "Part of the reenactor's [experience]," Iott said, "is the living-history part, of really trying to get into the persona of the time period. In many, not just in our unit, but in many units what individuals do is create this person largely based on a Germanized version of their name, and a history kind of based around your own real experiences. 'Reinhard' of course is 'Richard' in German. And 'Pferdmann,' 'pferd' is a horse. So it's literally 'horse man.'"
I was very far into the position of thinking man, this guy should not have been the candidate, what a screw-up for the Republicans when I got to this information — buried at the end of the 13th paragraph of the 15-paragraph article:
[Iott] added that he has participated in re-enactments as a Civil War Union infantryman, a World War I dough boy and World War II American infantryman and paratrooper.
What?! Green should be ashamed of himself for minimizing this. The 13th paragraph is about follow-up email with Iott. Did Green have the whole damning article written when he encountered this crucial piece of information? And then he decided — what? — to stick it where it's least likely to be read? A decent journalist would have ascertained how many war reenactments Iott has done and which roles Iott played in them. What is the proportion of Nazi roles he assumed compared to the number of times he played WW2 American infantrymen or paratroopers? Who decides, when war reenactments are done, which side somebody plays? Give me a realistic picture of what participation in war reenactments is really like so I can assess what Iott did.

Instead, Green's article is filled out with the well-known information that the Nazis were bad and that Jews and others are offended by signs that a person is sympathetic to Nazis. It's pretty obvious that Green is hot to smear Iott and help the Democrat in the race. And, unsurprisingly, the Democratic blogosphere welcomes Green's hearty slab of biased reporting.

TPM's Josh Marshall types up "Marcy Kaptur's Good Night's Sleep" ("whatever worry she may have had about reelection, I think that's over now that her opponent Rich Iott has been revealed as an avid Nazi reenactor"). Also at TPM ,Evan McMorris-Santoro has a long piece that looks like a rewrite of Green's piece, except that it leaves out the crucial information about other reenactments altogether. How incredibly slimy!

Look! Over there! Nazis! They're eeeevil! Sorry, but I'm looking over here, at journalists who should be ashamed of their shoddy political hackery.

143 comments:

ironrailsironweights said...

Men who participate in Civil War re-enactments are said to be just about the most pathetic bunch of Beta loser nerds this side of a science fiction or D&D convention. Ten guys at an NFL game probably have more lifetime sex partners than 500 Civil War re-enactors.

Peter

Montagne Montaigne said...

uh huh. if a DEMOCRAT was dressed as a nazi, for any reason, ever, would the press be as judicious as you suggest? That's the only way you can argue political bias. I would argue that the "press" (you only linked to one reporter, the others you complain about are overtly partisan) has a "OMG THAT GUY DRESSED AS A NAZI!!!" bias, rather than being specifically anti-conservative in this case.

making a big deal over someone dressing like a nazi may be unfair, but slimy? TPM is nakedly liberal! Would NRO go easy on a dem house candidate dressed as Mao for Halloween?

"incredibly slimy" no.

Quayle said...

Witches, whores, Nazis.

Charges still to come: adulterer, liar, child raper, wife beater, wife raper, child beater, a few thousand more racists and haters, and the occasional 'children starving bastards' and 'old people neglecting Scrooges'.

It's a regular Group W Bench.

Makes you proud to be a conservative.

Montagne Montaigne said...

Do you remember when conservatives (and this blog) went nuts when Anita Dunn said Mao was her favorite philosopher as a joke? HOW INCREDIBLY SLIMY

Meade said...

"Witch! Whore!... Nazi!"

And you thought the Democrats were the big tent party.

Drew said...

What's the difference between a history buff wearing a Nazi uniform for one weekend of play-acting, and a Hollywood actor wearing a Nazi uniform for several months while filming a war movie?

Does the Hollywood actor lose his lefty cred?

Hagar said...

So, did you guys watch NBC News last night?

This is no time foe squeamishness!
It's war, man!

Quayle said...

Oh, I forgot to add 'slimy' to my list.

Beta Rube said...

About 12 weeks before a major election, the media and Dems start their quest for menstrual synchrony. About 4 weeks before the election, the process is complete.

President Jesus puts the mouth on John Boehner, and lo and behold, he and his ties to lobbyists are on the front page of the NYT. The fact that Pelosi and Reid have both received more filthy lobbyist lucre is irrelevant here. When Jesus speaks, his scribes scribble.

One of these Sundays, 60 minutes will offer a damning, unproven bombshell about God knows what, complete with dramatic pauses and wounded women and children. Oh those heartless Repubs.

None of this matters this time. The Dems are going down and their asshole shills can't stop it.

Bye, Bye old media!

El Pollo Real said...

The Atlantic has long been obsessed with reenactors, especially pregnancy and uterine event reenactors.

Christopher said...

What?! Green should be ashamed of himself for minimizing this. The 13th paragraph is about follow-up email with Iott. Did Green have the whole damning article written when he encountered this crucial piece of information? And then he decided — what? — to stick it where it's least likely to be read?

This is how it's done, Ann. This is how it's always been done. It doesn't matter if it was the first bit of info Green gathered--anything countering the usual script was going to be shoved into the end. We're lucky it was included at all.

I ran into a reporter once at a congressional hearing where I was fretting about writing a story about it on deadline. She told me she always knew what she was going to write before she ever got there. So it is with most major/elite media whenever the topic gets anywhere near political and cultural issues. Their artillery is mounted on the left and aimed at the right. It's all they know what to do.

EnigmatiCore said...

Why would they be ashamed? It works, as your own reaction showed.

Yes, you read further and came to a different conclusion. Others won't read that far. On other days, you might not have read that far.

People do not go into journalism to just record what happened. They go into journalism because they want to change the world for the better. It should surprise no one that this leads to them playing games with the truth.

lucid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sheepman said...

Isn't there a distinction between dressing up as WWII German soldier and dressing up as a SS-Nazi for a war re-enactment?

Would it be OK to dress up as a KKK member for a lynching re-enactment?

lucid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lucid said...

The left believes they are the only ones who are right and that anyone with a different opinion is evil or stupid.

Liberals are today's most intolerant group, the equivalent of the Roman Catholic Church during the heyday of the Inquisition--Whoever Does Not Believe What I Believe Is a Sinner and Must Be Punished!

And Obama--with his virulent attacks on anyone who doesn't want to go down the road of government taking our property rights and controlling the details of our lives--is the high priest of liberal intolerance.

wv: decrud--what is going to happen to the Congress on November 2nd.

Steve Austin said...

I believe Obama's buddy Bill Ayers used real explosives during his re-enactments.

Trooper York said...

"uh huh. if a DEMOCRAT was dressed as a nazi, for any reason, ever, would the press be as judicious as you suggest?"

I don't know. There was this Democratic Senator who dressed as a Klan Kleage for about sixty years and nobody seemed to have a problem with that.

Quayle said...

"I can see it all now in my mind's eye - my mind's eye, Horatio! - the evil slimy conservatives stealing the last morsel of bread right out of the mouths of the starving children, (No, not the children!), as they plaintively pine away for the good-ol' days of the Third Reich when they could really jackboot their way to the top."

"All in my mind's eye, Horatio!"

Ben G. said...

I've re-enacted for years. Revolutionary, Civil and World War 1, time periods that I study fairy in depth - I work in museums. It helped me develop a deeper understanding of what I read, especially diaries. It answered a lot of 'why did they do that' type of questions. I have never been a kraut though, their gear was too expensive for me, same with Brit Rev War stuff, I was always a loyalist, much cheaper.

Trooper York said...

In my younger days I tried to re-enact some of my favorite porno movies but when I showed up to fix the copy machine none of the secretaries ever dropped their pants.

Sometimes life is just not fair.

Hagar said...

Sheepman,

The SS was a quite schizophrenic organization. Parts were elite panzer units and not particularly "nazi," parts were rival set-ups to the Gestapo, Wehrmacht, or the Abwehr, etc., and could be evil incarnate.
Hitler in that respect was a typical dictator in setting up helter-skelter organizations with opposing elements that, however, were all dependent on him personally for survival.

Ann Althouse said...

Montagne Montaigne said..."Do you remember when conservatives (and this blog) went nuts when Anita Dunn said Mao was her favorite philosopher as a joke? HOW INCREDIBLY SLIMY"

Did you bother to find the old post of mine on the subject before you made that accusation? Here it is. Now, would you like to reframe your question into something more like an apology? If not... HOW INCREDIBLY SLIMY!

Ann Althouse said...

And, btw, she didn't say Mao was her favorite philosopher. You can see what she said at that link. She quoted one thing Mao said "you fight your war, and I'll fight mine." It's a generic saying that she was applying to her context. Not a joke.

Big Mike said...

Well my son got into Civil War reenacting, and there are numerous pictures floating around of him in butternut. So if he ever runs for office he'll have to run as a Democrat, or the press will say that he'd bring back slavery.

garage mahal said...

Suddenly, Nazis......not that bad!

Ann Althouse said...

"Would it be OK to dress up as a KKK member for a lynching re-enactment?"

Such a reenactment wouldn't be done by decent people, but let's follow through and ask why war reenactments are done? What's going on with that activity? A lot of people do it. A lot of people do other sorts of historical reenactments. I don't get that Renaissance Fair stuff either. I went to Monticello and saw real people pretending to be slaves, talking to the visitors about what they were doing and not accepting any criticism of Mr. Jefferson... was that okay?

Ann Althouse said...

"So if he ever runs for office he'll have to run as a Democrat, or the press will say that he'd bring back slavery."

The Democrats were for slavery. The Republicans were against.

Sheepman said...

Hagar,

I'm aware of the "schizophrenic" nature of the SS. But the bad part was, as you aptly phrased it, "evil incarnate". A lot of people suffered form that evil, some of them still living in Ohio.

I can understand dressing up as a SS soldier if the purpose was to teach about that evil. But to do so for historical game playing strikes me as wrong. Perhaps in another 50 years.

El Pollo Real said...

Hey, Nanzi Pelosi is all for re-enacting...The Fairness Doctrine!

Montagne Montaigne said...

And, btw, she didn't say Mao was her favorite philosopher. You can see what she said at that link.

No, you can't. She said Mao and Mother Theresa were two of her favorite political philosophers. It's on video. She said it was a joke, and you called her an idiot. But it's good to see that you can misread the past with such alacrity, in the service of... well, attacking the press and "the left" for being terrible, terrible people, like you do all the time.

Ritmo Brasileiro said...

Get a grip. Just because you found it "damning" doesn't mean others did or that it was meant that way.

And coming from someone whose own bias is not only obvious in the way she wishes to push things but usually uncritically so and over-the-top, this is rich.

One thing you can say for The Atlantic and Green. They never put out a disclaimer that says "you can't just stop by to drop an insult or a lie that you can't defend." (Emphasis added.) I guess that's because they never thought to categorize an outright lie as defensible in the first place. Though for some reason, this shop does.

traditionalguy said...

My favorite is W re-committing the crime of murdering a black man by dragging him chained behind a pick up truck. It was really hard to forgive W for that. But it shows to go you that people who have NO love for the truth will become stuck in delusional un-reality. But my question is why do they brag about being stuck and give awards to the delusion creators who do it the best?

MayBee said...

She said it was a joke

She said calling him her favorite was a joke. Fine. I'll accept that.

But she went on to quote him to make a positive point to school children. Which is abhorrent, when you think about the meaning of his words.

William said...

I would recommend to all politicians that they not be photographed in SS uniforms nor caught on tape praising Mao. In like way, Meg Whitman should not wear red fishnet stockings to any of her campaign events.

Sheepman said...

... let's follow through and ask why war reenactments are done?

Good question and I can only speculate because I don't know anyone involved with them. My guess is a combination of the social aspect, the boy in the guy that wants to play war and an interest in history.

I went to Monticello and saw real people pretending to be slaves, talking to the visitors about what they were doing and not accepting any criticism of Mr. Jefferson... was that okay?

Hard to say. It may very well be that Jefferson's slaves viewed him kindly. If so, the "slaves" were being historically correct in defending Mr. J. IMO, I think Jefferson deserves a lot of criticism and Monticello should present a balanced picture of him.

traditionalguy said...

The O'Donnell video consultants need to rush into production a "I am not a SS lover" ad. But they need to edit out any arm spasms of nazi salutes like Dr Strangelove struggled to control. The love for heroism shown by the German armies seems strange to me, because the SS was personally bound by occult oaths to murder anyone and everyone at Hitler's word. I would have trouble voting for him.

traditionalguy said...

As to Tom Jefferson's slaves, maybe they did not want to dis-honor their father, so things would go well with them on this earth.

Fred4Pres said...

I am not into civil war re-enactments, but I hear that most want to be southern, with no embrace of slavery or the southern cause want to wear the grey. There is something romantically attractive (go figure) on being on the losing side.

But I have to give pause to any American putting on a WWII era Nazi uniform for fun (other than playing a role in some play or movie). WTF?

Then again, should we question Warren Beatty when he dresses up like a Red? We know he was into that roll more than just an acting gig. Yeah, we should. It is revealing of something.

Hagar said...

"So if he ever runs for office he'll have to run as a Democrat, or the press will say that he'd bring back slavery."

The Democrats were for slavery. The Republicans were against.


You are irked, Professor, and missed it. If he wore butternut (CSA) in the re-enactments and runs as a Republican, he will be accused of being the modern day version of the Democrats then. If he runs as a Democrat, that is not a problem.

Sheepman,
The re-enactors no doubt are quite aware of the distinction between the "good" and the "bad" units of the SS, and I do not see anything wrong with them dressing up as the best of the opposition in military terms. They do not intend an endorsement of the "political" units of the SS.

edutcher said...

He dressed as an SS trooper because you have to have somebody be the enemy. You have to have Confederates in a Civil War re-enactment, Redcoats in a Revolutionary War, French in the French and Indian War (duh), etc.

Montagne Montaigne said...

uh huh. if a DEMOCRAT was dressed as a nazi, for any reason, ever, would the press be as judicious as you suggest?

The press would cover it up.

Hagar said...

Sheepman,

The SS was a quite schizophrenic organization. Parts were elite panzer units and not particularly "nazi,"


?????

You never heard of Joachim Peiper and a place called Malmedy? The Waffen SS units were every bit as fanatical and cruel as the ones for behind the front lines extermination. The Limeys who served around Caen in Normandy have all kinds of accounts of hideously wounded kid (16, 17, 18) SS tankmen refusing medical care and trying to kill them for their trouble.

And then there are places like Ouradour-Sur-Glane.

PS The LA chapter of NOW endorsed Jerry Brown yesterday.

(Aren't you glad you left, Tammy Bruce?)

Thomas said...

I played cops-and-robbers with my brothers as a kid. From time to time I played the criminal side. I suppose any future political career is out of the question.

SGT Ted said...

Republican smeared as a Nazi by Democrat operative.

How ordinary.

Ann Althouse said...

"No, you can't. She said Mao and Mother Theresa were two of her favorite political philosophers. It's on video. She said it was a joke, and you called her an idiot."

What did I call her an "idiot" for? Come on... you can get yourself to a position of honesty if you care to.

Anthony said...

I think Althouse's criticism of Anita Dunn was accurate then and is quite applicable to Rich Iott. She said: "Dunn is a bit of an idiot, and though she is the White House communications director, she's not too good at communicating. She doesn't seem to know that things you say can be looked at in more ways than the one you intend."

I think there's more than one way to react to Rich Iott's decision to reenact a Nazi soldier. From the Wiking.org website it appears that one isn't assigned the role of the Nazi as in an audition for a play. Rather, Iott sought out the role of Nazi soldier. So I think it's fair to say that this was a conscious choice he made to play this part.

We can speculate about the motivations for his decision and those speculations are informed by a number of things, including that he's played other non-controversial characters. So I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. But with that said, as someone running for public office he has an obligation to be sensitive to how his actions are to be perceived, much like a WH communication's director should watch what she's communicating.

If Iott is oblivious to the notion that some of his future constituents would be offended by his behavior, I think that exhibits a lack of understanding of the sensitivities around World War II and an overall lack of judgment.

None of that, of course, makes him a Nazi sympathizer. That suggestion is smear.

Ann Althouse said...

I didn't rewatch the clip, btw. I read what I wrote. If she joked about "favorite philosopher" before using the saying, I obviously understood the joke and didn't in any way attack her for saying that. I understood exactly what she was doing, and I criticized her for not being good at framing her message and communicating -- a big problem considering that her job was WH communications director. So I *obviously* didn't go nuts about the thing that you said I went nuts over. I was precise, calm, and accurate. And you owe me an apology.

Hagar said...

Besides which the SS had very snazzy uniforms; the Wehrmacht not so much.

rcocean said...

Like Ed said, someone has to play the Indians. There also Red Army aka "Commie Stalinist" WWII re-enactors.

And I guess anyone who wears a Che T-shirt is a communist who supports concentrations and execution squads.

Big Mike said...

Professor, this post just got linked from Hot Air. Very good!

Big Mike said...

And I guess anyone who wears a Che T-shirt is a communist who supports concentrations and execution squads.

Well, actually yes. Provided they get to pick who gets put up against the wall. The thought that they'd be among the first executed never quite penetrates.

Sheepman said...

Besides which the SS had very snazzy uniforms; the Wehrmacht not so much.

The Nazis did have a sense of style, that certainly helped them gain power.

But, dressing up as a Nazi as a lark (Prince Harry) or for fun and games (isn't that really what these re-enactments are about?) is wrong so long as people who suffered from the SS are still living.

Big Mike said...

I played cops-and-robbers with my brothers as a kid. From time to time I played the criminal side. I suppose any future political career is out of the question.

You were playing with guns, even if they were toy guns. You're hosed even if you always played the cops.

rcocean said...

Waffen SS units varied. First, tens of thousands of Germans were drafted into the Waffen SS. Second, I lot of foreigners decided to fight for Germany (see Soldier of Orange) during WW II and they got stuck in Waffen SS units. One Waffen SS unit was full of Moslems from the Caucasus region.

Not all members of the Waffen-SS were Nazi's.

Trooper York said...

This year for Halloween I am going as Babe Ruth. I intend to re-enact the time he hate twenty-five hot dogs at one sitting.

Trooper York said...

I have the camel hair coat and the straw hat and everything like the one he wore in "Pride of the Yankees."

Hagar said...

But Anthony; I think you just suggested that he is a Nazi sympathizer.

There is a tendency to try to portray Hitler's Nazis as some kind of alien race or something, perhaps because of a fear not to be admitted that something like that could happen here and perhaps involve people quite like yourself or your family and other people you know. Trust me on this; if it could happen in Germany, it could happen anywhere. And in fact it has happened just about anywhere in the world - fortunately, so far just in smaller boils, and not involving a whole nation.

And for you Wisconsinites - Vidkun Quisling was a Norwegian, and some units of his government engaged in activities that disgusted even the Gestapo and the SS in Norway.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

Sheepman said...

Besides which the SS had very snazzy uniforms; the Wehrmacht not so much.

The Nazis did have a sense of style, that certainly helped them gain power.


There is a plausible theory that the side with the worst uniforms usually wins. American revolution, Vietnam, WWII et.al. support this thesis. Does not bode well for Afghanistan.

ted said...

what is the big deal about someone dressing up as a member of the

NATIONAL SOCIALIST GERMAN WORKERS PARTY??

The economic policies being practiced by our current regime mimic theirs.

edutcher said...

Hagar said...

Besides which the SS had very snazzy uniforms; the Wehrmacht not so much.

You're thinking of the guys in the SD.

Most Waffen SS, however, wore the field gray Wehrmacht uniform with black, rather than dark green, collar tabs and SS rank and unit distinctions.

But Anthony; I think you just suggested that he is a Nazi sympathizer.

There is a tendency to try to portray Hitler's Nazis as some kind of alien race or something, perhaps because of a fear not to be admitted that something like that could happen here and perhaps involve people quite like yourself or your family and other people you know. Trust me on this; if it could happen in Germany, it could happen anywhere. And in fact it has happened just about anywhere in the world - fortunately, so far just in smaller boils, and not involving a whole nation.

And for you Wisconsinites - Vidkun Quisling was a Norwegian, and some units of his government engaged in activities that disgusted even the Gestapo and the SS in Norway.


Excellent points all. If you compare some of the drivel in Hitler's stump speeches to what most American politicians say, the parallels are scary.

rcocean said...

Waffen SS units varied. First, tens of thousands of Germans were drafted into the Waffen SS. Second, I lot of foreigners decided to fight for Germany (see Soldier of Orange) during WW II and they got stuck in Waffen SS units. One Waffen SS unit was full of Moslems from the Caucasus region.

Correct, although I don't believe (you may be right) you were drafted into the SS, you were selected if you expressed an interest.

You're right about the foreign units. The Moslem one was the fave of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. By the end of the war, due to the need for bodies to fight for Germany, the Waffen SS had become the Nazi Foreign Legion.

Hagar said...

Tyrone Slothrop,

By gad Sir! You may be onto something there, but perhaps because the militarists are bound to lose against an aroused populace?

AlphaLiberal said...

Yeah, because dressing up like a Nazi and minimizing Nazi crimes is so understandable.

Uh, Ann? There are also Mr Iott's words, which I'm sure you think are unfair to publish:

"I've always been fascinated by the fact that here was a relatively small country that from a strictly military point of view accomplished incrediblei things. I mean, they took over most of Europe and Russia, and it really took the combined effort of the free world to defeat them," Iott explained

If this was a Democrat, you'd be all over him. You're partisan as the next person.

madawaskan said...

This is why I always read everything backwards.

I'm not kidding about that.

Start from the bottom, work your way up.

Hagar said...

I am pretty sure I have seen pictures of SS panzer units dressed in spiffy black uniforms.

I have read Gen. Patton required his tankers to wear Class A O.D's going into battle.

A friend once said that when there's a war on, you are glad there is a Patton and that he is on your side. The problem is what to do with him when the war is over!
Of course, in Patton's case, that problem resolved itself.

AlphaLiberal said...

edutcher reflexively makes excuses:

"He dressed as an SS trooper because you have to have somebody be the enemy. "

Ha ha!

So why does this group extol the Nazi Wiking fighting prowess, their fight against "the Bolsheviks" and sanitize their history of rounding up, beating and killing Jews?

They are historical revisionists, as well as grown men paying dress up like Nazi games.

This man's actions are offensive. Period. And bizarre and juvenile. Watch that video for cripes sake. I haven't done that since I was 12.

Randy said...

Joshua Green's commentary on The Atlantic website tends towards the juvenile. Green's alleged insights are rarely perceptive, and his reportorial skills are largely limited to retailing inaccuracies and half-truths. Green needs an editor.

AlphaLiberal said...

I do find this defense of Nazi apologist and re-enactor to be stunning.

That final paragraph is not exculpatory, Ann.

Iott and his pals are glorifying the Nazis. They downplay or ignore completely the atrocities these Nazis committed. They extol the Nazis.

In Mr. Iott's own words, he praises the military prowess of the Nazi's. Against allied, if Soviet, forces, no less.

Do you think they re-enacted the killing of the Jews?

Althouse reads this and finds no fault with Iott. No, she is pissed at the reporters and commentators who have the "audacity" to tell the public about this.

You guys are making excuses for this man and demanding he not be criticized for his own actions.

madawaskan said...

Well Alpha I took a look at it.

Here's my perspective on it FWIW.

My father who was actually in the Battle of the Bulge-with the Bloody Buckets [go google that] doesn't have a whole lot to say about it.

There are a few things he does say about it.

He had to walk through or by a whole corps [or some description of a unit-I think he says corps-the two times he talked about it] of Americans that had been slaughtered.

And, the g#$% damned movies and Hollywood pretty it up.

They make it look like the generals knew where they were and that it was organized.

My Dad says it was a bloody mess.

If re-enacting it-in anyway drives that home and people learn from it then it's a good thing, you got that?

Plus I had a military history prof who always warned one day they won't let you learn about it, talk about it. They will critique the style in which you fight back against Nazism, genocide and things devolving to the point of war.

They will sit on the sidelines and they will critique the style in which you do that.

No one is allowed to mention Nazi! on the internet you lose the argument-what's that stupid rule again?

Now no one is allowed to demonstrate the enormity of it.

Eventually as my military history professor warned when that happens everyone is allowed to do what they really want to do-

FORGET.

What happens then?

History has a funny way of repeating itself.

Warren said...

So, we're still playing the games of our political masters. Divide and conquer and distract us from what is important. 'Keep the people divided amongst themselves and they'll never unite and force us from power.'

If you are more concerned about protecting your ideology - or forcing it upon others - than you are about promoting and extending individual freedom, you are not a part of the solution to our nation's present difficulties. You are a part of the problem.

peter hoh said...

Remember when those nasty Democrats spread rumors that John McCain had an illegitimate daughter with a black prostitute?

amba said...

What about actors who play villains, for Christ's sake? Being fascinated by the psychology of villains doesn't necessarily mean you are one.

Cedarford said...

Sheepman - "Would it be OK to dress up as a KKK member for a lynching re-enactment?"

Why, yes! Hollywood and TV have done it hundreds of times, and not to reenact history, but make money! They even hire black extras on occasion, and the black extras gladly take the role!!
Sometimes, they dress up black and Jewish comedians in KKK outfits for jokes!
(Hollywood also has a rich tradition of Jewish comics dressing in Nazi gear to make a buck)

=======================
Something commentors have overlooked: the guys bio of service to the United States and Ohio:

Rich (Iott) is a proud member of the Ohio Military Reserve, a component of the Adjutant General’s Department of the State of Ohio, where he holds the rank of Colonel. He is in his 28th year of service. He is a graduate of the USMC Command and Staff College and the USAF Air War College. He has been awarded the highly coveted Israeli jump wings and the Senior Parachutist wings of The Netherlands.

Joshua Green? Squat for military service.
Josh Marshall? Don't make me laugh.

As for Nazis and bravery, lets say a case can be made that the elite Waffen SS Panzer Divs were the best soldiers ever fielded. Ever. After WWII, every military professional in armor and infantry studied their esprite d'corps, cohesion. tactics that led to successes against overwhelming odds on the Eastern Front...the Soviets respected them as much as hated them.
That makes them irresistable to reenactors and to professional military students focusing on Mechanized land warfare, inc. the Israelis.
Let's also say unlike the Nazis (because Jews not Chinese or Filipinos or Indonesians or Koreas are prominent in American media) - that like Ash in "Alien" - there is considerable admiration in the open in America for the "purity" of the fanatic Japs, their fanatical bravery and sense of duty, oath to the death for their leader. We now romanticize them. Though they were more cruel and inhuman than the Nazis.
We make movies about Japs nobly dying to the last man. Their kamikazes and Banzaai charges.

We also at times are forced to have gratitude for monsters. Though the Soviets were greater butchers than the Nazis, we are greatful they did 80% of the fighting and dying against a comon enemy. Though the Mongols out-did the Nazis or Japs in savagery and DID wipe out civilizations - we are greatful for what the Mongold did to the Islamoids. Otherwise, Europe would be bowing to Mecca in poverty, and the New World settled by Han and Nipponese.

Alex said...

So by this definition, Ralph Fiennes and Tom Cruise are uber-Nazis.

Alex said...

Suddenly, Nazis......not that bad!


You know what at little turd you are. Ready to be flushed down the toilet!

Biggles said...

By Jesus' estimation, we are all whores, nazis, racists. Not speaking such things doesn't mean you don't think it. Truly examine your own thoughts, not speech, over the day, and you will see Jesus was on it when he likened to thinking about homicide or infidelity to actually doing it.

It makes me laugh to here people in these forums try to "circle the racist" or paint others as worse than themselves. Hah, we are all sh** to some degree.

Biggles said...

By the way, Nazis weren't that bad. It was their commanding officers and the political party in power that drove the horror. Kind of like should we hold all dems responsible for the horros of Obama Pelosi Reid.

ReRe said...

I find it refreshing to read someone who can still muster outrage over so-called "journalists" who are completely devoid of integrity or professionalism. No matter how many examples I see, I am similarly outraged. As a result, I have canceled my subscription to my local, AP-fed, news rag, and my blood pressure has come back down to normal levels.

I like madawaskan's approach, to read everything from the bottom up; but I'm afraid that, in too many articles, the pertinent information isn't just buried at the bottom - it's completely omitted.

ReRe said...

Oh, and ironrailsironweights:

"...are said to be..."? "...just about..."? "...probably have..."?

With such factual assertions and pertinent content, perhaps you have a career in "journalism" ahead of you, too.

unclesmrgol said...

AlfaLiberal,

It takes two sides for every reenactment.

I too have worn the uniform of the Wehrmacht in a reenactment, and I am about as far removed from being a Nazi as you are.

You show your ignorance with the words you pen.

AlphaLiberal said...

madawaskan:

If re-enacting it-in anyway drives that home and people learn from it then it's a good thing, you got that?

"You got that?"

No, your statement is patently false. This group has a web site and they define their purpose rather clearly:

Wiking
About the Reenactment Unit

The purpose of ths website is three fold. First - to serve as a general reference source for World War Two reenactors. Second - to provide a historical reference source on the European and Scandinavian volunteers serving in the Waffen-SS on the Eastern front. Third - to provide source of reference on the equipment used by the Pioniere (Combat Engineers) in the Wehrmacht (German Armed Forces), which we portray at our World War Two reenactment events.


My emphasis, because they are protraying a false history of this SS unit. Show us where they describe the killing of the Jews and others. The SS massacres. Do they even lay out the role of the SS in Hitler's war machine?

You guys, and Ann Althouse, should be ashamed to support such holocaust denial and Nazi-friendly historical revisionism.

Oh, look at the nice photos of the real SS. Aren't they a bunch of good ol' boys! They didn't do anything wrong, according to some modern American conservatives. They just took orders, who cares what the Nuremberg tribunal said?

Where are the conservatives who will criticize this?

AlphaLiberal said...

Also, mad, their reenactments shown in the video may be awful, but not because they portray the gruesome reality of war.

AlphaLiberal said...

Principles of the
Nuremberg Tribunal, 1950


Principle IV
The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.

Also:

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."

During the Nuremberg trials, Wilhelm Keitel, Alfred Jodl and other defendants unsuccessfully used the defense.


From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders

Synova said...

Alpha Liberal is an ass.

You know... this is why Sarah Palin's populism works and Barack Obama's populism fails horribly.

Let us not ridicule someone for a hobby that we do not ourselves partake in. Because it's not something we do every day we can not even IMAGINE a normal person doing this. Not war re-enactments, not study of History, failing to leap back screaming "UNCLEAN!!!" when studying military tactics (makes one wonder what our military War Colleges do).

Some people even play evil characters on MMORPGs... no one could POSSIBLY identify with the desire to do that.

Or dress up in Storm Trooper and Bobba Fett costumes.

Or drive motorcycles across country to meet up at Sturgis.

Or go bowling.

Or bring children to term.

The ability to understand the motivation of others is what leads to this sort of outright ridicule and mocking and it's why any liberal who tries to express their favor for the "common man" FAILS.

madawaskan said...

Alpha-

a World War I dough boy and World War II American infantryman and paratrooper.

He also did this stuff.

You gotta get after that more.

madawaskan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Paco Wové said...

"I am about as far removed from being a Nazi as you are."

Well, what makes you think α-lib is far removed from being a Nazi?

madawaskan said...

Dude-

I would think it helps for people to understand the magnitude of it.

I'm actually going to follow one of your links because you know I'm more reluctant than you to call a guy that has served his country for almost three decades a -

Nazi loving holocaust denier.

Synova said...

"In Mr. Iott's own words, he praises the military prowess of the Nazi's. Against allied, if Soviet, forces, no less."

So... Alpha... you believe in Truth, right?

Truth?

Please evaluate the German military and the elite units from a military tactics and effectiveness standpoint.

Now *defend* the need to lie about that. Defend needing to turn away and lie about that. Explain why it's morally wrong to study History analytically.

If the Germans, if some units of the German military were *better* with land warfare and tactics than the Allies... explain why we should lie about that.

Maybe we should refuse contemporaneously to examine our military honestly or to examine anything that the enemy might be doing right. If something so much as approaches the line of seeming to suggest that the enemy has a worthy tactic or effective operation, we must shun that for the Truth that they are bad fighters. Right?

Defend that.

madawaskan said...

Alpha-

So I see why you directed me to a subpage or back page of their website because if you get curious and go to their home page you get this message;

Disclaimer: This page or anyone involved in its creation, or members of reenactment groups listed here, are in no way affiliated with real, radical political organizations (i.e., KKK, Aryan Nation, American Nazi Party, etc.) and do not embrace the philosophies and actions of the original NSDAP (Nazi party), and wholeheartedly condemn the atrocities which made them infamous. May the victims of this unspeakable horror rest in peace. As we portray the German combat soldier, we are only interested in recreating his daily life, furthering our understanding of what it took to be a soldier, and at the same time having fun reliving history. We honor the men (and women) who really experienced the war, and we salute their courage and loyalty to put their lives on the line in defense of their native soil, no matter what nationality or government.

Main Page of the WW II Re-enactors

AlphaLiberal said...

Read elsewhere:

"Would you be OK with this guy dressing up and playing Atta in a 9/11 reenactment? "

AlphaLiberal said...

madawaskan:

So what? They omit a part of the history of these guys. The bad and gruesome part.

When you only show the good parts of human actors in history and make them all personal and friendly, it's contorting history.

Do they reenact massacres?

Look, show some independence from your party. This is awful and that's no-one's fault but the candidate who is comfortable putting on a Nazi SS uniform!

We have to argue this?

madawaskan said...

Synova-

Defend that.

Ha! I was just saying something akin to that to someone:

There's this guy that has served his country for almost thirty years-I'm going to take a couple of minutes to defend the guy.

*****************

Cripes I do have to get going.

Alpha you're going to have to raise your own bar or something.

madawaskan said...

Alpha-

They are re-enacting a unit that was on the Eastern Front.

Then I can't imagine what you would do with the fact-if they did re-enact the death camp aspect.

What I think they are re-enacting are the movement of troops and counter maneuvers on the Eastern Front.

*************

I'll check back in later.

murgatroyd666 said...

Once again, the Right is looking for converts and the Left is looking for heretics.

One thing about Monty Montaigne and MUL and Delta-Minus Liberal and Garbage Mahal is that they're so damned predictable. I'd almost rather read comments by Titus about pinched loaves.

Freeman Hunt said...

I went to an event last year where you could meet Civil War reenactors at a local Civil War battlefield. It was great. One of the older guys had amassed quite a collection of both antique and reproduction equipment that he let the kids handle as he explained how all of it worked.

I'm glad there are people who put out that kind of effort to bring history to life.

This, of course, would be impossible if all the reenactors refused to play bad guys.

In fact, for those who think there's something wrong with a reenactor playing a Nazi, how do you think movies are made? Do you watch them? What horrible people are portrayed!

roesch-voltaire said...

Funny I do not need to put on a Nazi uniform and play act in order to understand their field maneuvers or philosophy. Actually I would suggest his group salute the Russians ,without whose help we would not have won the war- and not the Waffen-SS troops as the site does, which I find strange and offensive.

Gary Rosen said...

C-fudd ejaculates his compulsive Jooo-hatred once again.

Cedarford said...

AlphaLiberal said...
Read elsewhere:

"Would you be OK with this guy dressing up and playing Atta in a 9/11 reenactment?
=======================
Not only would I defend it, we are currently training airline and airport personnel and US military in traits of Islamoid terrorists or insurgents. The US Army has built two whole villages - using real life Iraqi and Afghan reenactors that soldiers train with to learn key warning signs of danger as displayed in the Iraqi and Afghan cultural setting - of what body language or behavior shows fighting is expected by villagers. The villagers are set up to be hostile to infidels, and angry at Americans, and loudly jabber away in Arabic at the Americans. Troops learn good reactions amenable to Iraq or Afghan culture to hopefully defuse things and get the villagers to believe they are not out to fuck with them unless the Islamoids in their ranks fuck with us 1st.

Non-military people as well as military are watching Atta and other terrorist caught on video tapes. From reenactment actors, SAG-holding employees of DOD, Homeland Security -ironically - they get real life simulation of people you can't get by just seeing a monitor. Showing certain "tell-tales" of hijackers and suicide bombers. Confronted with people trained to display "red flag" behavioral warnings by reenacting the conduct of Atta and others before boarding a plane. Learning from the actor trained to duplicate the appearance and movement and facial signals of a suicide bomber that make them stand out in a crowd.

Obviously, they are also "trained" by the demands of PC liberals like Alpha to ignore the most obvious markers - ME young man, Muslim - as "profiling".

You probably have a couple of reenactors now training to "be" Major Nidal Hassan, or Faisal Shahdaz. It would be a great thing if Iott or others are interested in doing that.
And there is also a mix of Muslim and non-Muslims that study force-on-force Jihadi tactics and reenact that in training Marines, Army, Spec Ops in jihadi fighting tactics encountered in Fallujah and in N Waziristan.

Cedarford said...

Gary Rosen said...
C-fudd ejaculates his compulsive Jooo-hatred once again
======================
No, Cedarford articulates his historical knowledge. Which the craven Gary Rosen can only respond to with a smear.
Time to crawl under your rock again, neocon.

Robin said...

There seems to be quite a bit of bile directed at reenactors - especially given that those spewing it seem to have no clue about the hobby at all.

peter hoh said...

murgatroyd wrote: Once again, the Right is looking for converts and the Left is looking for heretics.

Mike Castle was not available for comment.

---------

Amba and Freeman, while I'm opposed to the smear, and predisposed to give re-enactors a pass on the kind of dress up uniforms they like, it's ridiculous to compare them to actors.

Trooper York said...

AlphaLiberal said...
Would you be OK with this guy dressing up and playing Atta in a 9/11 reenactment? "


Why not? You would be perfectly fine with a bunch of people doing that while they walked into a mosque built on the rubble of the Twin Towers.

Have you no shame you lying sack of shit.

balbo1 said...

I'm reminded of a scene from the UK comedy Peep Show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1TTxj2q6eE

There's controversy within reenactment and gaming circles regarding SS units. I can't reproduce the article, but one U.S. group was banned (?) by an umbrella organization after it learned the group was more or less taken over by Nazi sympathizers. This is also a feature of online World War II games -- the Axis side tends to attract the occasional freak with questionable political loyalties, which you can either see in the racist, homophobic and anti-Semitic comments they make in the game or in their coming together in SS-themed groups.

Those are extreme examples, but seriously... I do have to raise an eyebrow at these SS units. If they wanted to reenact the daily lives of German soldiers, why not choose a supply company assigned to some Slovenian backwater, or something like that? Why are there so many SS units? Because they're so wicked awesome looking, I suppose.

It would be anecdotal and guilt by association to claim that anyone, however, who joins up in such a group, or even bats for the Axis team *in a game* is a Nazi. After all, someone's got to be the baddy.

On the other hand, this particular group clearly whitewashes the SS, and separates out the political nature of the Nazi regime and the SS from the ordinary soldiers, so as to not deal with the messy ideological nature of who they want to reenact. This is irresponsible, at the least. Ordinary Axis soldiers don't get a pass for just following orders, and they don't have an excuse because of ignorance or apathy.

AlphaLiberal said...

So, most conservatives here, including Althouse, hold a blind eye to the group's glorification of the Nazis as freedom fighters. From their site:

Nazi Germany had no problem in recruiting the multitudes of volunteers willing to lay down their lives to ensure a "New and Free Europe", free of the threat of Communism.

Except for that whole the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact.

Yeah, I know it's the eastern front. So what? It's still Nazi's who were killing Americans and many other people. They are putting out historical revisionism.

Conservative Talking Points:
"Someone has to play the bad guy."
I've seen no indication the good guy role was taken. This is a one-sided reenactment, far as I can tell.

"It's like a movie."
No, really it isn't. If it were a movie it would be pro-Nazi propaganda.

What roesch-voltaire said...

save_the_rustbelt said...

I have met Rich Iott a couple of times many years ago, he is a pretty boring Toledo grocer who used to manage the family grocery chain.

Marci Kaptur is a pretty standard lefty who gets some credit for standing up for US workers while much of our manufacturing has been shipped to China.

save_the_rustbelt said...

For many years the US military had a force in the southwest that "played" Soviet armored forces. Didn't make them commies.

Jake said...

Yeah, and when you find some Democrat who participated in Vietnam War re-enactments dressed as a Vietcong guerilla, you and the rest of the right-wingers will rise to his defense, saying, "He's a history buff. What's wrong with that?"

AlphaLiberal said...

More from the Wiking web site, web site for this Republican Nazi Reenactor's group:

We salute these idealists; no matter how unsavory the Nazi government was, the front-line soldiers of the Waffen-SS (in particular the foreign volunteers) gave their lives for their loved ones and a basic desire to be free.

They just want to humanize the poor misunderstood SS, who fought for freedom.

Yet, Althouse says liberals are off base here. Wow..

jimspice said...

There must be something to it, as the GOP has scrubbed him from their young gun contender page: http://bit.ly/nazi-yanked

Robin said...

Yes, AlphaLiberal, you are off base.

But I guess you have no shame, anything in the pursuit of partisan advantage, right?

madawaskan said...

balbo1

[Iott] added that he has participated in re-enactments as a Civil War Union infantryman, a World War I dough boy and World War II American infantryman and paratrooper.

Cedarford said...

Jake said...
Yeah, and when you find some Democrat who participated in Vietnam War re-enactments dressed as a Vietcong guerilla, you and the rest of the right-wingers will rise to his defense, saying, "He's a history buff. What's wrong with that?"

===============
Everyone knows that liberal Democrats (after WWII) and progressive Jews rarely join the service. They wouldn't know how to even play a VC, past feeling sorry for any VC they see getting killed watching a reenactment.

It's like trying to recruit a bunch of Mormons to become hippie reenactors for the glory psychedelic days of Haight-Ashbury.
===============
Balbo1 - "If they wanted to reenact the daily lives of German soldiers, why not choose a supply company assigned to some Slovenian backwater, or something like that?"

Pretty simple - Re-enactors play the major battles or pivotable moments in a war. Civil War reenactors do not focus on a Confederate mule train squad moving victuals to the frontline troops, nor the Union soldiers garrisoned 4 years in Washington, DC. Nor WWII reenactors focus on Vichy troops guarding Marseilles, the US Army uniform and supplies inspection corps in Philly and NYC, or those Soviets lucky enough to avoid the Eastern Front because they were busy watching over and sometimes shooting Ukrainians, Tatars, etc.

paul a'barge said...

Here is the vile Joshua Green.

Slither, Joshua. Slither.

Joe said...

I sometimes play Germans in Company of Heroes.

madawaskan said...

You know what kind of "visual" Liberals need?

About 800 billion anything....

If you have 800 billion dollars and each dollar was a cubic litre you could fill....

Or how about if you have 800 billion people?

Could you hold hands, wrap the world, and teach it how to sing?

Hell how about something you really care about?

How many Michael Moore videos could you buy?

hillbilly said...

Who designed those snazzy uniforms?

You may have something by him in your closet.

Hugo Boss.

AlphaLiberal said...

Ha ha! From TPM:

I look forward to Iott's new campaign commercial, "I'm not a Nazi. I'm you."

madawaskan said...

I think Obama is a Nazi lover-

he's trying to re-enact the Weimar.

Synova said...

"They just want to humanize the poor misunderstood SS, who fought for freedom.

Yet, Althouse says liberals are off base here. Wow..
"

And yet again it's the liberal who insists that we *de*humanize the enemy.

Wow...

What's up with that?

You see... it's one thing to defend the enemy by calling them minutemen and somehow make them into heroes, and another to understand that they are people, are *human*, and thus subject to both compassion as well as held to human moral standards.

The best story I heard of our invasion of Iraq was about an officer in the Iraqi Army who had fought against us and who was walking home after the Iraqi Army had surrendered, apparently still in uniform, and who was saluted by our men when he passed checkpoints... because he was an officer, in uniform, who had fought for his country. He may well have killed Americans, no one stopped to ask because that wasn't the point.

And I recall, when there was talk of bringing insurgent groups in, offering amnesty of sorts, or letting them join up with "our side" that those expressing outrage that we might treat with men who had killed Americans, at least in these comments, were those on the left. Not the right.

War isn't vengeance, and refusing the *humanity* of the enemy, even monsters, means that we become blind... it means that Carter goes and visits with the leader of Sudan and comes back convinced that he's a decent person, and not a monster at all who couldn't possibly be undertaking genocide. Because we refuse to see *monsters* as people, who love art and literature, who are smart and even often kind, and who might well be an exemplary soldier - a professional. And that means that we can't see monsters at all.

And that is *dangerous*.

Dehumanizing anyone is dangerous. It causes blindness about real motivations, among other things, and makes it impossible to understand and predict or even to solve problems between people groups.

Why do you insist on dehumanizing people, Alpha?

I wonder... is it a factor of way way deep down believing that people are good?

Does looking at evidence this isn't true really hurt that badly?

rcocean said...

The depth of historical ignorance shown here is astounding. I wonder how it ever came to pass that people think Waffen SS = Holocaust. Yep, some people in the Waffen SS were Nazi's, and...

On second thought, who cares about historical truth anyway? I can't figure out who's the bigger idiot, the "NaaNaa-you're-a-Nazi" commentators or me for responding to their stupidity.

balbo1 said...

I have to disagree with the commenter who said the hobbyists play the SS because they "play the major battles or pivotable moments in a war." Because I swear, the SS were not as pivotal as these hobbyists make it seem.

It appears (to me) that SS units are some of the most popular of the reenactor groups because of how super hardcore they were, and that these guys like to get off on it. A "wargasm" in other words. They live vicariously through Euro death squads complete with Nordic runes and skulls on the helmets and MG42s and Tiger I tanks and oh my God did you see how awesome that was? Whether or not they are Nazis is immaterial, and hard to prove. Doubtful, though these groups tend to attract them, they realize this and explicitly reject anyone who sympathizes with National Socialism.

I like what Christopher Hitchens wrote about Confederate reenactors: "Some of these are in need of a life; others are genuine history students; still others tend to regard the movie Deliverance as an invasion of their personal privacy. But, for all those who chafe at the redneck jeer, the Stars and Bars is a title and connection to nobility."

Synova said...

On further thought... that seems like it must be it: it is the logical conclusion of an ideology that insists that people are naturally *good*.

Because it has human=good at the foundation, anything that says someone is human becomes a claim that they are good.

It's yet another way that the relatively recent turn away from an understanding of inherent sinfulness trips us up. In practice what seemed to be condemnation and thus had to be rejected in favor of an ideology that insisted that people can be pure and that certainly children are innocent, was actually acceptance and forgiveness.

Which is why the new ideology is so unforgiving.

Mark said...

"uh huh. if a DEMOCRAT was dressed as a nazi, for any reason, ever, would the press be as judicious as you suggest? That's the only way you can argue political bias."

The press would bury the story until some blogger broke it. Then they'd burn the blogger.

Mary Martha said...

I am a WWII re-enactor. I do either USO, Army nurse, German Nurse of Russian sniper.

In our group there are super strict rules for those who are doing German impressions. No swastikas, no heil Hitler salutes, and you are NOT allowed to do a German impression until you have done a GI impression for at least a year (usually longer). A basic rule of thumb is that if a guy comes into the group only wanting to be German... then we don't let him.

Even with those rules none of my friends would do an SS impression. There are no SS units in our group. In my experience WWII re-enactors are extremely anti Nazi. Mostly because they are people who have done a great deal of research about WWII and they know in detail about the horrible atrocities of the era.

Re-enacting isn't just 'fun and games (though there is lots of that). It is educational as well. Nearly all of my friends take time off from their jobs to go do demonstrations at schools or to do static displays at retirement homes.

A friend will dress in the uniform of the unit of men who served in WWII who are now alzheimers patients and will sit down and talk with them as if it were still 1943. It is a tremendous service because it will often bring these men out of their shells and allow them to truly communicate in a way they rarely can today.

Crimso said...

First off, AL you desperately need to read something (anything) about the SS. The Waffen SS were essentially a parallel army established by the Nazis. They were not Totenkopf (another type of SS member; similarly not every SS member was part of the Gestapo), though they certainly weren't good guys (check out the Peiper reference above). Now if we wish to insist that being any form of Nazi=Jew killer, then we clearly didn't hang nearly enough Germans by orders of magnitude (and I'll note that Peiper was not only not executed but was eventually released, only to die under suspicious circumstances, which is not surprising).

As for reenactors, the great majority of the reading I have done for pleasure over the past 15 years (and I read a LOT) has been in the area of the American Civil War (more properly, The War of the Rebellion). Watching two lines of about 50 men each stand 100 yards apart and fire muzzle-loading muskets at each other as fast as they can is rather impressive. The usefulness is that it gives me a frame of reference for visualizing, say, Hood's attack at Franklin, the wrecking of Sedgwick's division at Antietam, not to mention the havoc wrought by the Spencer repeaters of Wilder's brigade in the Viniard field at Chickamauga. And contrary to roesch-voltaire's assertion, you DO need that to more fully understand the hows and whys. And I have actually participated in ACW reenactments twice, and I can tell you that even knowing there are no slugs of metal coming at you, it is still an exhilirating and quite frightening experience. This gives you a frame of reference to try to understand the totally alien (to us) mindset that would allow men to actually fight thusly, and not turn and run like Hell.

Crimso said...

Damn, I can be one pedantic motherfucker. Worse yet, about things in which I have no real expertise. I feel like I may have insulted you a little AL. I apologize if you took any offense.

peter hoh said...

Mary Martha, that bit about your friend who visits with alzheimers patients got me a bit choked up.

He's doing good work.

Kirk Parker said...

peter hoh,

"while I'm ... predisposed to give re-enactors a pass on the kind of dress up uniforms they like, it's ridiculous to compare them to actors."

Darn right--actors are whores, they only do it for the money.

Gary Rosen said...

"No, Cedarford articulates his historical knowledge."

Bwahaha. It's only your fevered, pompous bullshit which is regularly exposed as lies every time someone with actual knowledge weighs in.

"a case can be made that the elite Waffen SS Panzer Divs were the best soldiers ever fielded. Ever."

What is the evidence for this (never mind the fact that it is ludicrous to claim that any unit of soldiers could somehow be objectively called "the best ever")? People like Fudd and his butt buddy Patti Buchanan love to say what great soldiers the Nazis were (not that they love the Nazis or hate Joooos or anything like that) but if they were so great why did they lose the war so badly? They led a great nation to an abjectly humiliating and devastating defeat. They did great against weak-kneed Western appeasers (the kind Fudd and Buchanan admire so much) and their ally the Soviet Union when they attacked it by surprise, but once their opponents got their shit together they were driven back and destroyed, their nation left in ruins.

dave in boca said...

About 12 weeks before a major election, the media and Dems start their quest for menstrual synchrony. About 4 weeks before the election, the process is complete.

President Jesus puts the mouth on John Boehner, and lo and behold, he and his ties to lobbyists are on the front page of the NYT. The fact that Pelosi and Reid have both received more filthy lobbyist lucre is irrelevant here. When Jesus speaks, his scribes scribble.

One of these Sundays, 60 minutes will offer a damning, unproven bombshell about God knows what, complete with dramatic pauses and wounded women and children. Oh those heartless Repubs.

None of this matters this time. The Dems are going down and their asshole shills can't stop it.

Bye, Bye old media!


Thank you, Beta Rube, for the best analysis of the 2010 media whore-streetwalker-mafioso-DNC meltdown yet. This short bit should be engraved in marble on the NBCBSABCNYT tombstones after they are thankfully interred in all but name during the next decade.

Can't come too soon for me!

Greg said...

I guess those pictures of me from the Renaissance Faire will doom my future candidacy for high office.

http://rhymeswithright.mu.nu/archives/306692.php

AlphaLiberal said...

Good comment by Mary Martha at 10/9/10 7:23 PM. We're fine, Crimso.

rcocean said...

"The depth of historical ignorance shown here is astounding. I wonder how it ever came to pass that people think Waffen SS = Holocaust. "

Well, my comment on this was in reference to the accounts, expunged from the history told by by Iott and his pals, of when they conducted mass murders of Jews, forcing them to run a gauntlet of beatings, where they were shot at the end and dumped in a mass grave.

That's the type of action that was the Holocaust. It wasn't all concentration camps and gas chambers.
-------------

And, I gotta say, we've seen elements of the Tea Party calling Obama a Nazi for some time now and Althouse didn't get the vapors over that!

Doyle said...

It's so sad when the liberal media decides to smear Republicans like this. I mean sure, the guy likes to dress up AS a Nazi in his spare time, and no one is actually suggesting anything else, because that's (at least) politically dicey enough, but still. A shame.

AlphaLiberal said...

I see, Doyle. So the Tea Party recruited a candidate who is a Nazi enthusiast and is comfortable wearing the uniform of mass murderers and...

...that mean liberals did something wrong?

Did you keep a straight face as you typed that?

Eric Cantor is rejecting this candidate:

"Now Debbie [Wasserman Schultz, Cantor's co-panelist] went and launched into her attacks as to some of the reports about candidates that are running, particular the one in Ohio having to do with Nazi re-enactment. She knows that I would absolutely repudiate that and do not support an individual who would do something like that."

At this point Wasserman Schultz urged Cantor to actually articulate his repudiation. "I'm doing it right here," he replied. "I'm doing it right here Debbie. You know good well that I don't support anything like that."


-From today's Faux News Sunday.

Trooper York said...

AlphaLiberal....do you have any idea who Doyle is?

He is even more liberal than you. Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. He is trying a little irony.

He's pulling your prick here.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Rob Crawford said...

Anyone think AlphaLoser would see nothing wrong with Che paraphernalia?

Synova said...

"...but if they were so great why did they lose the war so badly?"

Seriously?

A relatively small and economically crippled European country practically took over the whole place before anyone knew what was happening, attacking Britain and Russia and fielding troops in Africa... at which point (as you say) the WORLD got it's shit together, Russia poured untold bodies and blood into the conflict, while the allies drowned who knows how many troops on Normandy and walked the rest through a wall of bullets and BEAT them...

And that proves that they were crappy soldiers?

I do *get* it. The Nazis are evil. The Germans were the bad guys. We all RIGHTLY paid the price in blood to stop them.

But deciding that they were not good at WAR is delusional. Demanding that everyone else call them panty-waist poopy-pants pretender patrols is sort of wacked, you know. It's unbalanced.

Anita said...

Imagine there's no whores, but only nice girls, as this one.

TheRaven said...

Tell us, Althouse, does Rich big idIdiot re-enact all Waffen SS "military tactics"? Or does he just sashay around in his snappy uniform? Genuine re-enactment would include favorite SS tactics on the Eastern Front, for example...

* Spearing babies on bayonets
* Forcing civilians to dig their own graves, then shooting them*
* Raping young girls , then leaving them to bleed to death
* Stacking dead civilians like cord wood, for kerosene-fueled bonfires
* Letting millions of prisoners of war freeze and starve to death
* Beating old women unconscious, as they begged SS troops not to drag their husbands away to slave labor camps
* Stealing food from civilians and leaving woman, children and babies to starve in the Russian winter

Does the IdIott have a fake marksmanship badge for baby-spearing, to match his other fake marksmanship badge, for non-existent military service?

Your defense of IdIott is a lame attack on a journalist who wrote a good article. Who cares if IdIott wore other uniforms and who cares if such information is in the 13th paragraph? IdIott was photographed in an SS uniform. The SS weren't conscripted. They volunteered to enforce Nazi ideology in brutal anti civilian campaigns. By defending IdIott, you endorse the worst kind of ignorance.

* for genuine historic realism, the civilian re-enacters would need to beg for their lives, on their knees, in Polish, Lithuanian, Ukrainian, etc., while Waffen SS troops smoke, tell jokes and otherwise laugh at their plight as sub-human Slavs. Then, of course, these civilians are murdered and unceremoniously kicked into their graves. Bonus points for a reenactment in which all civilians aren't shot at one time. The Nazi's were murderously efficient. They'd keep a core group of victims alive to fill in the graves. Then this last group, if they were very lucky, might get shipped to a slave labor camp, where they'd die in a few more months.

TheRaven said...

Tell us, Althouse, does Rich big idIdiot re-enact all Waffen SS "military tactics"? Or does he just sashay around in his snappy uniform? Genuine re-enactment would include favorite SS tactics on the Eastern Front, for example...

* Spearing babies on bayonets
* Forcing civilians to dig their own graves, then shooting them
* Raping young girls , then leaving them to bleed to death
* Stacking dead civilians like cord wood, for kerosene-fueled bonfires
* Letting millions of prisoners of war freeze and starve to death
* Beating old women unconscious, as they begged SS troops not to drag their husbands away to slave labor camps
* Stealing food from civilians and leaving woman, children and babies to starve in the Russian winter

Does the IdIott have a fake marksmanship badge for baby-spearing, to match his other fake marksmanship badge, for non-existent military service?

Your defense of IdIott is a lame attack on a journalist who wrote a good article. Who cares if IdIott wore other uniforms and who cares if such information is in the 13th paragraph? IdIott was photographed in an SS uniform. The SS weren't conscripted. They volunteered to enforce Nazi ideology in brutal anti civilian campaigns. By defending IdIott, you endorse the worst kind of ignorance.

TheRaven said...

A reenactment is the complete re-staging of an event. That's why genuine Civil War re-enactment of the most important Civil War battles, like Gettysburg, have the boys in gray going home in defeat.

A re-enactment represents complete history by definition. If Rich IdIott was sincere about his expressed interest in WW2 history, he and his buddies would recruit 10 times more guys to play the Red Army. Then they'd starve for a few weeks and re-enact the 1944 collapse of Germany's eastern front, way up in the Michigan UP, in January. The real history includes millions of Russians, seriously pissed off after four years of Nazi atrocities, crushing the Wehrmacht like a grape, all the way back to Hitler's doorstep.

Rich the IdIiott celebrates ignorance. He's a litmus test for all of us.

You fail.

MikeR said...

Ann, I think you need a follow-up on this. Green has posted a number of follow-ups of his own, and I am definitely feeling that Iott is probably creepy. Help!

karl said...

Hello:

Not the first connection.........
Do a Google Image search on Tony Zirkle.

Karl

karl said...

Hello:

Not the first connection.........
Do a Google Image search on Tony Zirkle.

Karl