September 16, 2010

Is lust a sin? Is masturbation a sin?

Back in the 90s, Christine O'Donnell — the new GOP candidate for Delaware Senator — said: "The Bible says that lust in your heart is committing adultery. You can't masturbate without lust!" She's getting teased or denounced or whatever for saying that, but it's not a stupid thing for a Christian to say.

The Sermon on the Mount is central to Christianity. In it, Jesus calls us to a higher level of morality than what traditional law requires. The law forbids murder, for example, but Jesus says that even to be angry with someone or to call him a "fool" is to expose yourself to the danger of God's judgment. (Are you sure you want to call O'Donnell a fool?)

Continuing with that theme, Jesus says:
You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
So what have you been doing with that hand, eh?

O'Donnell, unlike Jesus, did not go so far as to say that you ought to be lopping off your own masturbating hand. (If you think that, I recommend masturbating with your left hand, if you're right-handed.) O'Donnell took a much more moderate approach to the sacred text (as many believers do). In her view, the real offense against God is abusing the gift of sexuality by disconnecting it from the context of deep love in a marital relationship. In that interpretation, masturbation is sinful. It is mere lust, without love. Is lust a sin? You decide for yourself. She wasn't recommending that the law enforce this higher morality, but what is wrong with it as a personal, religious doctrine? Why is it not respected?

And let's remember: This was back in the 90s. Do you remember how insane everyone was back then? Here's a quick refresher course.



President Bill Clinton, a Democrat, fired Jocelyn Elders in 1994, after people freaked out when she said that young people should "perhaps ... be taught" about masturbation, because it is "is part of human sexuality" and useful in keeping them from doing riskier sexual things.

307 comments:

1 – 200 of 307   Newer›   Newest»
Bender said...

O'Donnell, unlike Jesus, did not go so far as to say that you ought to be lopping off your own masturbating hand.

WOW -- is THAT a grossly ignorant and offensive distortion of what Jesus said and meant.

And I thought you said you weren't going to say such things.

New York said...

Interesting that O'Donnell is 41 yrs old and has never been married. Quite unusual for someone who is socially conservative.

downtownlad said...

She wasn't recommending that the law enforce this higher morality

Bullshit She wants sodomy made illegal and she wants the punishment to be prison.

She also believes in spending tax money to try to convert gay people to be straight.

The question is why does Ann want her tax money to be used to force reparative therapy on those who don't want it?

Rialby said...

The press should seek to find out where Keith Ellison stands on such issues.

Ann Althouse said...

@downtownlad Could you provide links for where O'Donnell is proposing laws like this? I will denounce her if this is true.

madawaskan said...

O'Donnell is 41 and never been married.

Whacka, whaka whacka.....

She sure is spunky!

craig said...

The one idea intolerable to leftists is the idea that people have both the ability and the duty to control themselves in matters of sexual behavior. They view the sex drive in Bacchanalian fashion as an uncontrollable force that is dangerous to oppose. As Mark Steyn has noted, the left is willing to eliminate every other right that might have a possibility of hindering the left's goal of unrestrained sexual license.

garage mahal said...

A man goes to see his doctor about his masturbation problem. The doctor asks "do you remember the first time you masturbated? The man says "I don't remember the first time I masturbated today!

shoutingthomas said...

Bullshit She wants sodomy made illegal and she wants the punishment to be prison.

She also believes in spending tax money to try to convert gay people to be straight.

The question is why does Ann want her tax money to be used to force reparative therapy on those who don't want it?

Jesus Christ but you're an hysteric, DTL.

I seriously doubt the validity of your statements.

I think the more serious threat we probably face in the future is that the DTL's will succeed in making homosexuality mandatory.

So, DTL, are you really queer or are you an ideological queer? That is, did you convert for the political and social perks?

Plenty of that going around. This is the era of the closet hetero.

madawaskan said...

You know all the guys stationed over in Iraq, Afghanistan doing 18 month rotations-

siiiinnneeeerrrs.

{Dana Carvey}

Hoosier Daddy said...

@downtownlad Could you provide links for where O'Donnell is proposing laws like this? I will denounce her if this is true.

Oh Beard of the Prophet! DTL says this about everyone to the right of Lenin.

William said...

Her comment was made on MTV, and thus cannot be considered anti-sexual. Everything on MTV is, by definition, prurient. When an attractive woman talks about sexual abstinence, she is talking more about sexuality than about abstinence. This is like that Venus painting where Aphrodite tries to cover her breasts and pubes with her hands. The gesture does more to draw attention to the erogenous zones than to hide them. Christine is putting on a flannel nightgown and letting it ride up her thigh.....As a seduction technique, it probably works better on Irish Catholics than others, but it definitely works.

traditionalguy said...

The purity of thoughts is not a new law being taught by Jesus. Rather it is a freedom from self hatred for thinking the sinful act that Jesus suggests is the true goal. In any event a sinful act is easily repented of and forgiven since the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus and his atonement for our sins once for all by the eternal Spirit during Easter week 2000 years or so ago.

edutcher said...

In the Old Testament, a guy named Onan was zapped for spilling his seed, so we can presume it is.

New York said...

Interesting that O'Donnell is 41 yrs old and has never been married. Quite unusual for someone who is socially conservative.

No more than anyone else. Social conservatives have the same things happen in their lives that everyone else does, and that means some never marry. Witness the uncle(?) in Anna Karenina.

PS Leave it to someone like dtl to extrapolate a speculative comment into a Reign of Terror - like ZeroCare.

madawaskan said...

Althouse-

There's a lot more you don't know.

Just hang on to yourself.

shoutingthomas said...

The one idea intolerable to leftists is the idea that people have both the ability and the duty to control themselves in matters of sexual behavior

Somewhat accurate.

For the DTLs of this world, the junior high school orthodoxy is sexual license. DTL is a member of the clique, and sexual license is the fashionable mantra of the clique.

The days when sexual license was a sign of rebellion are long gone. Rebellion is the dominant theme of advertising and TV. Rebellion is the new conformity.

Every hick out there is a sexual rebel.

That's the new ethic of the junior high clique.

Pogo said...

Sure, let's put aside the fact that in the first 19 months of the Obama administration, the federal debt increased by $2.53 trillion, more than the cumulative total of the national debt held by all U.S. presidents from Washington through Reagan.

Instead, let us consider what a candidate said when she was in college.

Ignore the fact that the man responsible for this debt had no such record to peruse, vanished as it were, and that bothered none of his voters.

So pay attention to that bit of lint on her sweater. Don't listen to her arguments or plans. Shut her up. Mock her.


She. Must. Be. Destroyed.

MayBee said...

I don't understand what her opinions on masturbation are supposed to say about the job she'll do as Senator.

What do the people who are bringing this up think O'Donnell will do about it?
Tack an anti-masturbation amendment onto the Democrat's law banning salt?

Scott M said...

The question is why does Ann want her tax money to be used to force reparative therapy on those who don't want it?

No, the real question is "do you live in Delaware?" If not, it's not your fight"

Hoosier Daddy said...

You know if the teenies out there had the sense to wear a Mr. Happy Raincoat when doing the wild monkey dance, there probably wouldn't be much attention paid to teaching abstinence. Abstinence lectures only came about because of skyrocketing teenage girls getting knocked up and evidently the free birth control available well pretty much anywhere wasn't having much impact.

madawaskan said...

Althouse:

Just try to listen to the first couple of minutes of this.

O'Donnell radio interview

Really the anti-whackers position of hers is the least of her problems.

Paul Zrimsek said...

What is the Tea Party movement about if it's not about being master of your domain?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Sure, let's put aside the fact that in the first 19 months of the Obama administration, the federal debt increased by $2.53 trillion, more than the cumulative total of the national debt held by all U.S. presidents from Washington through Reagan.

Forget it Pogo. Garage educated me in an earlier thread that Obama has one of those Staples EASY BUTTONS that he just presses and money comes forth to pay for all that stuff. The Government can never run out of money or default.

Now just sit back and be quiet.

Pogo said...

Madawaska, I'd vote for a set of used dishware for Senator if I knew it would repeal Obamacare.

But I suspect Delaware is all in for the coming socialist regime in America. Go ahead and vote for the status quo. This nation is finished; stick a fork in 'er.

Pogo said...

@Hoosier " Obama ...just presses and money comes forth to pay for all that stuff. The Government can never run out of money or default."

I had read garage's post. I thought mebbe he was joking.
But no.
She-hit.
It's like finding out someone sez they were kidnapped by a UFO.
But in this case, them types are actually running things.


Into the ground.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Really the anti-whackers position of hers is the least of her problems.

Well hopefully her being a whacko will send a message to the RNC that when a whacko whacks your hand picked favorite, maybe they should start listening to the voters. Evidently the GOP interpreted the 'anti-incumbant' fever as anti-Democrat. Well here's a newsflash, it ain't.

I'm not a party hack, I'd just as soon see a Dem hold a seat than a GOP whose going to sign on to any spending bill that rolls along. At this point there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two parties other than what their spending priorities are.

traditionalguy said...

Too bad for O'Donnell that she is not a lesbian. Then her sex style would be praised.

lucid said...

@Althouse

You're going to defend this?

You take great photographs, but I think you have a lot of trouble admitting when you are wrong.

bagoh20 said...

You might get the idea that religion sets up unattainable standards. This limits the market, especially today. Today, a lot of that stuff is in fine print or not on the label at all. It just won't sell otherwise.

downtownlad said...

Here you go.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/christine_odonnell_aids_gets_too_much_govt_money_condoms_dont_work_video.php

chuck b. said...

I don't have any problem with what she said*, but I still think it's funny. Because I don't always understand the Christian idea of lust (and I don't care--please don't explain). Erections happen. It's not a choice. I don't know what it's like for a woman, but for men sexual arousal is a constantly recurrent biological fact. And while it can be fun it is also distracting and sometimes annoying. If I can resolve that in a few minutes and get back to whatever it is I have to do, that is a good thing and I am not going to pile a bunch of *someone else's* moral judgment on it. You do what you want.

*particularly since she said it on MTV. What a refreshing counterpoint that must have been!

Dust Bunny Queen said...

DTL

Your url doesn't work. Can you try to link it.

k*thy said...

What MayBee said. If it is truly a personal, religious doctrine then that's fine. What does this have to do with her duties as a US Senator - because we never, ever look at a politician's personal attributes to reinforce our own opinions, right?

downtownlad said...

She ran an ex-gay ministry. Enough said.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Even if elected, O'Donnell doesn't have much of a chance to affect national whacking policy in any meaningful way.

garage mahal said...

Forget it Pogo. Garage educated me in an earlier thread that Obama has one of those Staples EASY BUTTONS that he just presses and money comes forth to pay for all that stuff. The Government can never run out of money or default.

It's a fact. Sorry if that doesn't fit your picture of the government getting an order for something, then going to the basement to print off the precise amount needed, signing an invoice then trucking that freshly printed money to the appropriate place.

Smilin' Jack said...

...it's not a stupid thing for a Christian to say.

Stupid things do not become non-stupid because a Christian says them.

She wasn't recommending that the law enforce this higher morality, but what is wrong with it as a personal, religious doctrine? Why is it not respected?

Because it's stupid.

Marshal said...

"Ann Althouse said...
@downtownlad Could you provide links for where O'Donnell is proposing laws like this?"

This is just his contribution to the whisper campaign.

Darrell said...

The Democrats should run that substitute teacher that was caught masturbating in the toy section of a Walmart against her. He would fit right in with the current crop of our betters.

GMay said...

The only thing I thought was freaky about Elders' comment in '94 was that people had to be taught about masturbation.

Clyde said...

@ edutcher

If I remember right, there was more to the Onan story than just a guy jerking off.

Wikipedia says:

"In the Book of Genesis, Onan (Hebrew: אוֹנָן, Modern Onan Tiberian ʼÔnān ; "Strong") was the second son of Judah.

"According to the text, after God had killed Onan's older brother Er, Judah told Onan to have sexual intercourse with and impregnate Tamar, the widow of Er, so that the child or children could be declared to be Er's heir(s). Onan had sex with Tamar, but performed coitus interruptus each time, spilling his "seed" (semen) on the ground, so that there would not be any offspring which he could not claim as his own. The passage states that this displeased God, who killed Onan as punishment for disobedience."

GMay said...

Ok, could somebody tell me what the fuck garbage is talking about?

Ann Althouse said...

downtownlad said... "Here you go."

Do you understand the difference between government regulation and government spending? The link you provide is full of opinion on how much govt money should be spent on various programs. Where does it say people should be forbidden to do things or coerced or regulated? I'm not seeing that.

Federal spending on abortions is currently prohibited, but abortion is legal and the right to get an abortion is preserved.

Could you please impose some structure and logic into your comments? You are so far off the mark you sound insane.

MadisonMan said...

Ok, could somebody tell me what the fuck garbage is talking about?

The context is in a thread from yesterday or the day before. Can't quite remember.

madawaskan said...

You had a guy-Castle that voted against Obama Care in the House, and you tossed him away because he was accused of cheating on his wife with a man, being senile, and "unmanly".

He was accused of ordering his staffers to break into her office in 2008 with absolutely no proof from her-she couldn't even be bothered to file a police report.

He was accused of wanting to switch parties after being elected, of voting to impeach a wartime Republican President. When they eroded his numbers with this damn garbage only then did Palin and DeMint jump on-after the dirty work.

Now you have a candidate with an established pattern of lying.

The IRS "accidently" put a lien on her house for 5 years.

The bank mistakenly put her house up for a sheriff's auction.

The Conservative think tank misunderstood when she told them she had a degree.

She has admitted to John McCormack of The Weekly Standard that she under reported her finances as being only 5,000 some dollars for a whole year because she didn't want how much she actually made to be held against her during the campaign-while she slimed Castle for his money.

So Castle was tossed away a politician that kept his word for decades because the Tea Party wants to be angry and "anti" everybody.

shoutingthomas said...

So, you didn't answer DTL?

Are you an actual homo or a political homo?

Are you a turncoat who glommed onto the homo fashion for the political, economic and social perks?

I've met plenty of them in Manhattan.

If you can become or pretend to be a homo for the perks, what's the problem with reparative therapy?

I've noted that the more vocally angry homos are quite often the political converts. You seem like a prime candidate.

And don't tell me people won't twist their sexuality into pretzels for fashionable approval. I've lived in Woodstock for 30 years. I've seen people twist their sexuality into the most incredibly hilarious pretzels for the sake of fashionable approval from the left.

Ann Althouse said...

"The only thing I thought was freaky about Elders' comment in '94 was that people had to be taught about masturbation."

People perversely pretended she had meant that kids should be taught how to masturbate. She meant that they should be taught "about" it, as you note. There is a lot that could be taught, that, even if people discover it easily on their own, would be good to know, for example, that it isn't harmful. Kids have a lot of questions and worries about it that could be met with education.

Marshal said...

"he ran an ex-gay ministry. Enough said."

Even if so and we agree this is bad (Why is choosing to change the outward half of a gender mixup laudable but not the inward half?) where is her claim she will use tax funds for this? Just making shit up again?

Oh, right, whisper campaigns are only bad when undertaken by conservatives. BAMN right?

GMay said...

downtownlad,

If you want to link something about the government spending your taxpayer dollars on stupid shit, it would look like this:

Dollars for Dicks

former law student said...

She's getting teased or denounced or whatever for saying that, but it's not a stupid thing for a Christian to say.

Did you see the snippet from S.A.L.T.'s Marketing Director? It's a stupid thing to build a movement -- and your career -- around.(Linked in says the Marketing Director was, more recently, a sales manager for a furniture rental company.)

Onan was not penalized for masturbation, by the way. He was supposed to impregnate his brother's widow so his brother would have an heir. Instead he pulled out and spurted on the ground. The Lord was displeased that Onan disobeyed.

And lust in one's heart for a specific woman is not the same as a generalized horniness. Are there any Jews here who can testify to the existence of a masturbation prohibition.

Pogo said...

The context is that garage thinks the gummint can print as much money as it wants without consequence.

And leftist Democrats in Delaware thinks so too.

But carry on worrying whether someone will propose laws about onanism. Ignore the Damoclean sword of debt overhead.

madawaskan said...

Her is her direct accusation:

They’re following me. They follow me home at night. I make sure that I come back to the townhouse and then we have our team come out and check all the bushes and check all the cars to make sure that—they follow me.

That’s what’s disgusting, as you can see from the YouTube videos. They knock on the door at all hours of the night. They’re hiding in the bushes when I’m at candidate forums. In 2008 they broke into my home. They vandalized my home. They wrote nasty notes on my front door, on my front porch. They jeopardized my safety. They did the same thing to our campaign office. They broke into our campaign office. They vandalized our campaign office. They stole files. My campaign signs that had my picture—they put a spear in my mouth poked out my eyes, and cut out the part of my heart, and wrote nasty names all over those campaign signs.

I would be a fool to be pressured into disclosing where I live, when I know that the stakes are even higher this time. What makes me think they wont do the same distasteful things they did in 2008 when the stakes are even higher, when we’re even more viable. I mean come on, John, you’re a class act. You don’t want to—you know that this is a security issue. You know what they’re capable of.


It goes on with this:

O'Donnell says there are no police reports of the 2008 break-in because she didn't want to make an issue of it at the time. She claims to have pictures of vandalized signs.

I don't know if you are catching the part where she is inferring that they will harm her -.but if all that is true-

Why in the hell is she whining about not getting Castle's endorsement?

You know the same guy that was having his guys out to harm her?

sonicfrog said...

But, really, isn't politics just another form of masturbation? And why am I reminded of the Jimmy Carter "I had lust in my heart" comment, for which Conservative razz Carter with to this day?

http://sonicfrog.net/?p=3928

Ver Word: gotho, which pretty much describes the woman who starts speaking at around 50 seconds in.

madawaskan said...

And here is the hypocrisy of it all Glenn Reynolds calls him a "loser" for not endorsing O'Donnell after all that.

OK but let's try to apply the name calling equally.

The Tea Party candidate in Washington state refused to endorse Rossi-that is being sold as "principled".

I thought the Tea Party was suppose to be against politics as usual instead they are nastier to their fellows.

Reagan would be disgusted.

Clyde said...

And how long was it going to be until this showed up?

Every Sperm Is Sacred

Original Mike said...

She's getting teased or denounced or whatever for saying that, but it's not a stupid thing for a Christian to say.

Ah, those tolerant liberals.

madawaskan said...

btw-

It's Tea Party folks and their fans who are posting that the Senate majority really isn't worth it.

Pogo said...

Do go on, madawaskan.

Still, I prefer any batshit crazy miser to the self-proclaimed Marxist she's running against.

Yes.
A self-proclaimed Marxist.
As Senator.

Original Mike said...

I love that skit, Clyde!

froggyprager said...

She wasn't recommending that the law enforce this higher morality, but what is wrong with it as a personal, religious doctrine? Why is it not respected?

What is wrong? Respect it.....? Her comment indicates that she is not living in the real world and does not understand human sexuality. I would hope that her views have changes since that video was shot but 90% of men masterbate and to say it is wrong as part of your personl religious views indicates that she is not accepting who we are as a species. It makes me seriously question to what extent she would consider any science in her life as a legislator.

Pogo said...

"the Senate majority really isn't worth it."

If R=D, they retain the majority anyway.
So what's the difference?

former law student said...

Believing only in sex within marriage yet still unwed at 41?Maybe Michael Moore could work on this movie: The Forty-One Year Old Virgin -- the Christine O'Donnell Story.

vw: adjob -- receiving sexual gratification from an advertisement.

shoutingthomas said...

"... she is not accepting who we are as a species.

Oh my God! Not accepting... Species...

What's the name of this type of bigotry?

It makes me seriously question to what extent she would consider any science in her life as a legislator.

The science of masturbation? Please elaborate.

GMay said...

MadMan,

Gah! thanks for nothin'.

I mean, I know garbage doesn't know much about finance or economics, but if he thinks the gubmint has a bottomless moneypit, well...he's just getting into weapons-grade dumb.

garage mahal said...

The context is that garage thinks the gummint can print as much money as it wants without consequence.

Never said anything remotely like that.

former law student said...

How will Christine O'Donnell get along with Paladino, who apparently likes porn enough to forward it to his buddies?Including bestiality porn:

http://gothamist.com/2010/04/12/paladino_really_enjoys_forwarding_b.php

Hoosier Daddy said...

Ok, could somebody tell me what the fuck garbage is talking about?

Its from a thread yesterday where garage told me to relax because the government can't ever run out of money or default because it just prints up whatever it will need to meet its obligations.

I suppose that is technically true once you leave off the consequences of, you know, printing trillions of dollars to pay for all that spending. But then in the liberal world, there are no adverse consequences.

Pogo said...

It's odd watching another female candidate get the Palin treatment.

It's almost like there's some list of news writers who collaborate and plan, sending out Alinsky rule #13 talking points on her.

Nah; couldn't be.

GMay said...

Re: O'Donnell

I don't care how batshit crazy she is or what her personal beliefs are as long as she votes the right way. Castle didn't really have a good history of voting the right way.

Both of them were shitty choices. The people DE have spoken. If Castle's too thin-skinned to take abuse in a primary to later give his endorsement for the good of the party, then he wasn't really working for the party was he?

Hoosier Daddy said...

pogo saidThe context is that garage thinks the gummint can print as much money as it wants without consequence.

garage saidNever said anything remotely like that.

Um yeah ya did.

The government then cannot run out of money, nor does it need to borrow from the likes of China to finance anything. They literally press a button on a computer and voila, money! There is obviously good spending and bad spending, but the austerity you're talking about would be suicidal in this recession. Look at the bond markets, they are and always have been overprescribed. Right now there is no inflation or deflation. Relax!

Pogo said...

Man up, garage.
Sure you did.

garage mahal said...

Its from a thread yesterday where garage told me to relax because the government can't ever run out of money or default because it just prints up whatever it will need to meet its obligations.

You are completely worthless to debate. I just told you the government doesn't print money to fund things. Where did you ever get this ignorant idea from?

former law student said...

Having refreshed my memory of the Sermon of the Mount, as a Christian I must point out that Meade is committing adultery because he has married the divorced Althouse. Not that I recommend stoning him.

I hope no liberals tease or denounce me for my simple statement of Christian faith.

In fact, I expect to receive support here when I start my anti-marriage-after-divorce movement. Who would like to be my Marketing Director?

madawaskan said...

btw-

If anybody bothered to listen to that podcast/radio interview-

Delaware has only three counties.

Clyde said...

And just a little sauce for the goose (NSFW!):

Mojo Nixon - "She's Vibrator Dependent" (audio only - NSFW!)

Mojo rocks! And he probably had the best take on the O.J. verdict, too in his song "Orenthal James Was A Mighty Bad Man."

Hagar said...

The voters of Delaware were presumably cognizant of all this, not just from the opposition advertising in this campaign, but she had run twice before, and they still preferred her over Castle, the "establishment" candidate.

The Republican "establishment," in Delaware and nationally, should think this over before they mouth off some more on TV.

GMay said...

garage mahal incredulously stated: "You are completely worthless to debate."

Funniest thing I've read all week.

Keep going garbage, you've got a ways to go before you top the funniest thing I've heard all week. That honor belongs to my 10 year-old who said last night during a conversation about stool size: "Sometimes, it feels like I'm shitting a lamp."

Fred4Pres said...

Given the choice of the forty year old virgin or Harry Reid's pet, I would take the virgin.

Ann Althouse said...

"What is wrong? Respect it.....? Her comment indicates that she is not living in the real world and does not understand human sexuality."

Explain why, specifically. What exactly was wrong with her statement. She's saying Jesus calls us to reject lust. Is your point that Jesus was asking too much? Are you saying all Christians are unrealistic? If your position is that lust isn't wrong, are you also saying it should be obvious to everyone?

" I would hope that her views have changes since that video was shot but 90% of men masterbate..."

The word is "masturbate." And 90% of men lie and cheat too. So what? What does that have to do with choosing a standard of morality for yourself. You're apparently advocating the "everybody else does it" theory of morality as if it's obviously correct. If you even listen to what you are saying you should know that's nuts.

"... and to say it is wrong as part of your personl religious views indicates that she is not accepting who we are as a species."

We are sinners, in the Christian view. The question is what do you do about it. If your answer is Go ahead and sin. It's natural!, then own up to that and tell us why the other position is wrong.

" It makes me seriously question to what extent she would consider any science in her life as a legislator."

You're the advocate of science, but you don't bother to apply reason and logic to your own statements. Absurd.

Fred4Pres said...

I am against spending tax dollars to convert anyone to anything.

I suspect it is less hard to convert someone to gay to straight, than it is to convert liberals to actually objective thinkers. I have no interest in the former; but I am open to suggestions on the later.

garage mahal said...

Gmay
I realize they don't talk about real things on winger blogs, things like monetary policies and the like, but how bout stepping onto the field where I can hit you instead of always sniping from the sidelines? Would be a nice little break from the endless Barack ZimbabweMussolinsky is deliberately ruining our economy by SPENDING MONEY WE DONT HAVE!!!1111

Scott M said...

And 90% of men lie and cheat too.

WHOA, now Ann. Just hold the phone for a sec...

Fred4Pres said...

If Christine O'Donnell is expressing her moral beliefs, that is fine. As a candidate she needs to explain what public policy she would pursue.

Those are two very different positions.

Because what is really driving this tea party movement and the current election cycle is this: "It is the spending stupid!"

And I have to admit, when Chris Christie does one of his youtube rants on spending--it turns me on! Intellectually.

Marshal said...

"It makes me seriously question to what extent she would consider any science in her life as a legislator."

She has a personal belief different than most Americans, and you think it says something about science?

Ok. So now let's all remember what the left means when they say conservatives are anti-science. It's just a scary way of saying they disagree about social matters.

Original Mike said...

And 90% of men lie and cheat too.

Wow! I'm letting down my gender. Sorry guys! I'll have to get on that, pronto.

shoutingthomas said...

I realize they don't talk about real things on winger blogs...

What is a conservative these days?

Apparently, it's come down to this: any person who holds any belief that a liberal dislikes is a "winger."

We need some definitions here.

Fred4Pres said...

And 90% of men lie and cheat too.

Where did that craptoid come from? That is like pulling a a half digested kernel of corn from poop.

And downtownlad, find those links, becuase that would be obviously offensive for a majority of voters (myself included).

And william, damn you cracked me up with that flannel Irish Catholic seduction. Hah!

Fred4Pres said...

Here is downtownlad's link.

GMay said...

garage mahal,

Hey Champ, don't project your childish tactics onto me. I've engaged you multiple times with reason, logic, and facts only to have you pull one of the patented lib disappearing acts when the going gets tough.

I always, always stay in threads and respond to each and every point, line by line when one of you lefties actually make a serious attempt to engage.

I'll even turn off the condescending snark and sniping for you if you can manage to argue in good faith. Deal?

What exactly would you like to bring up? Fire away.

Marshal said...

"Apparently, it's come down to this: any person who holds any belief that a liberal dislikes is a "winger.""

What do you mean "it's come down to"? America has been this way since at least the 60's.

blake said...

madawaskan,

Why in the hell is she whining about not getting Castle's endorsement?

Because it would be helpful for winning the election.

Duh?

Hoosier Daddy said...

You are completely worthless to debate.

Coming from someone who says this:

The government then cannot run out of money, nor does it need to borrow from the likes of China to finance anything. They literally press a button on a computer and voila, money! There is obviously good spending and bad spending, but the austerity you're talking about would be suicidal in this recession. Look at the bond markets, they are and always have been overprescribed. Right now there is no inflation or deflation. Relax!

I'll take that as a compliment.

Or the flipside is you have split personalities and I'm talking to Francine right now because Horace is taking a dump.

garage mahal said...

You've yet to refute any of it. And you've had close to two days to do so.

peprgirl said...

Let's all substitute Jesus with Mohammed and it would be ok? No Leftie would be squawking??

Was interesting to read this post and comments shortly after reading the post and comments about the illustrator hiding

shoutingthomas said...

She also objected to calling those with AIDS "victims" and said the disease was a consequence of a certain "lifestyle."

This is the first of the top 10 statements, as defined by her opponents.

And it's absolutely true. AIDS is a consequence of the infected person's lifestyle.

You have to work really hard to get AIDS, and the mechanism of infection is well known.

Who else is to blame, except for the person who engages in the behavior.

Oh, I forgot... Ronald Reagan actually caused the AIDS epidemic!

Martin L. Shoemaker said...

A Madonna post followed by a masturbation post including 80s and 90s flashbacks. Oddly appropriate juxtaposition.

blake said...

garage,

The government can, of course, run out of money. Yes, they can print more. But when they print more, the devalues what exists--it is, in essence, a tax on anyone who currently holds said currency.

If they print too much or spend too much, it can actually become worthless, meaning they have, in fact, run out of money.

Marshal said...

From the link noted as DTL's, O'Donnell discussing nude sunbathing.

"I mean, it is very difficult, I'm sure, for a man to sit there and stare at his girlfriend naked and not want to go a little bit further."

This is one of TPM's top ten? Are they trying to show how aburd the anti-O'Donnell press is?

GMay said...

Wait a sec, I thought garage said that wasn't what he said.

Sigivald said...

I've already heard an idiot claiming "she wants to ban masturbation".

I blame the way that idiots like the one who made that claim are unable to comprehend thinking something is bad, and wanting the State to make it illegal.

Downtown: Sodomy isn't masturbation, which was the context of the discussion. The "higher morality" in question was that of the Sermon on the Mount, not of Leviticus, which is where the religious ban on homosexual sex comes from.

I realise that these subtle little distinctions like "context" and "the Sermon on the Mount in the New Testament isn't the same thing as the Old Testament's Levitical law", but, hey. I managed to figure that last one out, and I'm a lifelong atheist.

I'm pretty sure you could manage, if you bothered, or actually cared about it as something other than a target for partisan ire.

(Well, that and I share everyone else's skepticism of her being on record for those things, since we'd have had them put all over the media by now if they were there...)

GMay said...

In trying to wrap my mind around this absurdity garage, could you please explain to me how you believe in "good spending" and "bad spending", yet also believe that the government can't run out of money?

Also - could you also provide examples of "bad spending"?

garage mahal said...

If they print too much or spend too much, it can actually become worthless, meaning they have, in fact, run out of money.

But the gov doesn't actually "print" money to pay for things. When the government spends or lends, it adds numbers to private bank accounts. When it taxes, it marks those same accounts down. When it borrows, it simply shifts funds from a demand deposit (called a reserve account) at the Fed to a savings account (called a securities account) at the Fed.

shoutingthomas said...

Here's another of O'Donnell's top 10 offensive statements:

"Well, I know that the one here in Los Angeles, there was S&M going on. There was mocking sodomy, mocking, you know, all kinds of crude sexual acts," O'Donnell said. "Because -- because authorities were too afraid to be called, quote, unquote, 'homophobic' because these homosexual special rights groups do get away with [anything]."

I've been to the gay pride parade in NYC.

One of the dominant themes of the parade is mocking Catholicism. Many paraders wear priest and nun outfits that are horrific or erotic or sexually repulsive.

Should they be more sensitive of my Catholic sensibilities? Should I issue my own fatwa?

Don't see many of them mocking Imams. Wonder why?

Hoosier Daddy said...

You've yet to refute any of it. And you've had close to two days to do so.

What's to refute? You one one hand stated the government can just print money therefore we can't run out (or be in default) and then in the next breath you claim you never said the government prints money to cover its obligations.

Maybe you need to refresh yourself with you own argument before claiming its worthless to debate me.

shoutingthomas said...

Don't see many of them mocking Imams. Wonder why?

I take that back. I've never seen our brave paraders mock an Imam.

The reason is obvious.

GMay said...

garage mahal said: "But the gov doesn't actually "print" money to pay for things. When the government spends or lends, it adds numbers to private bank accounts."

What are these "numbers", pray tell?

"When it taxes, it marks those same accounts down."

What is the government taxing?

"When it borrows, it simply shifts funds from a demand deposit (called a reserve account) at the Fed..."

What are these funds?

"...to a savings account (called a securities account) at the Fed."

And what is backing the securities?

Sigivald said...

So, uh, I don't know (since nobody's linked to the thread) if garage mahal quoted his source for that "the government can't run out of money" [and nothing bad will happen because of all that money printing] quote.

It's Warren Mosler, who appears to be a grade-A economics loonie and gold bug.

Seriously, look at the "mandatory readings". He's barking fucking mad on macroeconomics and monetary theory.

Which, I suppose, explains why garage mahal, quoting him blindly, appears equally barking fucking mad.

The idea that the only reason there's unemployment is that deficits are too law? Seriously? This is weapons grade nuts.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

But the gov doesn't actually "print" money to pay for things. When the government spends or lends, it adds numbers to private bank accounts. When it taxes, it marks those same accounts down. When it borrows, it simply shifts funds from a demand deposit (called a reserve account) at the Fed to a savings account (called a securities account) at the Fed.


You have to be joking. Is this REALLY what you understand about monetary policy?

Monetary policy is referred to as either being an expansionary policy, or a contractionary policy, where an expansionary policy increases the total supply of money in the economy rapidly, and a contractionary policy decreases the total money supply or increases it only slowly. Expansionary policy is traditionally used to combat unemployment in a recession by lowering interest rates, while contractionary policy involves raising interest rates to combat inflation. Monetary policy is contrasted with fiscal policy, which refers to government borrowing, spending and taxation.[2

If expansionary policy is used to combat recessions and unemployment by increasing the money supply and lowering interest rates......and interest rates are just about at ZERO....how much longer do you think we can keep up this farce before the entire economy collapses?

What is going to happen if the government continues to print money or increase the money supply and we are already at ROCK BOTTOM?

The fact that the Banking Industry world wide has just increased the reserve requirements tells us that the World Economy is going to go into a tightening or contractionary mode. What do you think THIS, is going to do to our recession and to unemployment in the US in a world that is now backpeddling as fast as it can from the spending and expansionary policy that we have been on for some time?

Think about it.

garage mahal said...

You one one hand stated the government can just print money

Hoosier, for the 5th time now I've said the opposite. It doesn't print money to pay for things. It doesn't wait for your taxes to pay for things.

garage mahal said...

So, uh, I don't know (since nobody's linked to the thread) if garage mahal quoted his source for that "the government can't run out of money" [and nothing bad will happen because of all that money printing] quote.


Never said nothing bad could come from it, I just said as a monopoly issuer of currency, it's not possible to run out of money.

pduggie said...

Thanks for posting this, Anne.

Come to think of it, its not even like Jesus is saying something particularly religious.

If you fantasize about killing somebody, yes, you are committing murder in your heart. And yes, if you fantasize about sex with someone not your wife, yes, you are committing adultery in the heart.

It's just a fact of existence. The religious point is that all are sins and all bring condemnation before a holy God.

Original Mike said...

I just said as a monopoly issuer of currency, it's not possible to run out of money.

As someone pointed out upthread, since the money loses its value it is, in fact, as a practical matter, possible to "run out of money."

Wish I could stick around for the fun, but I gotta go.

TMink said...

"Could you please impose some structure and logic into your comments? You are so far off the mark you sound insane."

Althouse, you write this as if you just discovered it. This is sop for dtl. This is dtl on a good day. He is really unhinged and so borderline that he is difficult to understand.

I believe he was horribly mistreated by his Christian parents for being gay, or he has said as much. That is horrible. But he has also not sought medical and psychological treatment, or none that has worked, and that is irresponsible and foolish. It is high time that he stopped bleeding on everyone here. He is disrupted.

Trey

edutcher said...

Clyde said...
@ edutcher

If I remember right, there was more to the Onan story than just a guy jerking off.

Wikipedia says:

"In the Book of Genesis, Onan (Hebrew: אוֹנָן, Modern Onan Tiberian ʼÔnān ; "Strong") was the second son of Judah.

"According to the text, after God had killed Onan's older brother Er, Judah told Onan to have sexual intercourse with and impregnate Tamar, the widow of Er, so that the child or children could be declared to be Er's heir(s). Onan had sex with Tamar, but performed coitus interruptus each time, spilling his "seed" (semen) on the ground, so that there would not be any offspring which he could not claim as his own. The passage states that this displeased God, who killed Onan as punishment for disobedience."


I agree (didn't want to get into the whole thing), but the point, as I was taught in Theology class at Villanova, was that he spilled his seed. Not that he was having intercourse when he did it.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Never said nothing bad could come from it, I just said as a monopoly issuer of currency, it's not possible to run out of money.


The problem is that if you increase the monetary supply to imbalance the supply and demand curve..... our currency will eventually become as valuable AS Monopoly money.

Sure you won't run out, but it will be worthless.

You can have a wheelbarrow of money and still only have the value of a bottle of Coca Cola.

Argentina hyperinflation 1989.

At the beginning of the 20th century, Argentina was the seventh richest nation on earth. It’s very name means “silver.” “As rich as an Argentine” was a byword. Even after falling from the heights through a series of bad decisions, the country was still so wealthy that, in 1946 when new president Juan Peron first visited the central bank, he could remark that “There was so much gold you could barely walk through the corridors.”

Argentina had actually defaulted on its debt in the late 19th century, not once but twice! But still they managed to avoid destroying the currency and devastating the country. But in 1989, after years of massive budget deficits that were financed with borrowing from abroad and Argentinian citizens, the country was left with so much debt and no one was willing to lend it any more money, that the leaders felt compelled to resort to the printing press.

There were no prices on any items in the grocery stores. There was a man with a microphone who would announce the prices of various items, often increasing the price every few hours by 30% or more. Workers would get their pay in cash and rush to the store to buy anything, as by the end of the week their pay would be worthless. Of course, shelves were empty. The US dollar was king, and could purchase things at amazing prices.


Any of this sinking in? I wonder what currency will be king when ours collapses?

Dust Bunny Queen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TMink said...

Shoutingthomas, do you disagree with what she said? You seem to agree with it. Then where is your concern? Did those things take place? Were they appropriate or legal? Were the police afraid of PC backlash?

Trey

Dust Bunny Queen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
GMay said...

garage said: "Hoosier, for the 5th time now I've said the opposite. It doesn't print money to pay for things. It doesn't wait for your taxes to pay for things."

Well, if you'd actually bother to answer my series of questions above, you'll see that this was precisely what you said.

It's not like I think you're actually going to answer any questions posed of you though, but one can hope.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

GAH!! Blogger sucks.

sorry for the multiple posts.

rhhardin said...

Masturbation isn't lust in the first place. It's getting rid of an attention-robbing obsession, at least for guys.

It's not being fruitful and multiplying, however.

They have the wrong sin.

Find a nice girl, marry and have kids, is the commanded solution.

k*thy said...

If Christine O'Donnell is expressing her moral beliefs, that is fine. As a candidate she needs to explain what public policy she would pursue.

The shiney object in the room vs. what really matters. The mistrust out there, I suspect, is that the former greatly influences the latter. Given the importance it seems to be to her, it seems a logical step, but we'll see how she answers.

A.W. said...

the truth of all of this is that the democrats are jerking us around.

Who the hell cares what she thinks of masterbation. Or that she is a young earth creationist. these positions are irrelevant to the core issues. Kill the terrorists, bring down the debt, kill the health care law--that is what needs to be talked about. speculating about whether she is a virgin is irrelevant.

and i will remind everyone that supposedly bill clinton screwing everything that moves was no one's business. so how is her possibly not screwing anything our business?

garage mahal said...

Sure you won't run out, but it will be worthless.

And where are the signs that any of this is happening? That was my original point to Hoosier that keeps getting ignored. No inflation, or deflation, and the bond markets are overprescribed. I would think there would be some warning signals showing up there, and the people that have predicted that have been proven wrong so far.

Scott M said...

Find a nice girl, marry and have kids, is the commanded solution.

A wife and kids will definitely take some of the wind out of your sails. This is, of course, in direct opposition to a 13-year-old, who can be completely set of BY the wind (and a pair of loose shorts).

Hoosier Daddy said...

Hoosier, for the 5th time now I've said the opposite. It doesn't print money to pay for things. It doesn't wait for your taxes to pay for things.

Like I said, you need to remember which one of the garage mahals said this.

The government then cannot run out of money, nor does it need to borrow from the likes of China to finance anything. They literally press a button on a computer and voila, money!

garage if you want to hang on the 'literal' sense of the 'the government can't run out of money because its the sovereign issuer of the currency then fine. I concede the 'literal' meaning. But in the real world, were even governments have to repay its debt, it can either do so by issuing more currency (that's called quantitative easing in money speak) or it borrows more or it taxes more.

Well you acknowledge that we just can't print money without adverse consequences. Good, glad to see some synapses are still working but that largely goes to my original point from last thread. We are spending money we don't have; I left unsaid as a given that printing trillions more to cover all this spending would lead to hyperinflation.

Anyway, this has been beat to death and I'd much rather see the conversation go back to important things like spanking the monkey.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

And where are the signs that any of this is happening?

I strongly suggest you take of the blinders that you have put upon yourself.

It is happening now. We are so far in debt that we will never be able to pay it back. The only way is to default or increase the money supply by printing ever more and more. You can read how well that worked for Argentina.

We are at the very bottom of the income curve, expansionary monetary policy hasn't worked, the recession is still going strong, unemployment is going higher and we will have a permanent class of unemployed at 10% or more for quite some time (decades), people are NOT investing, they are purchasing hard assets like gold and silver, the last Treasury auction was a flop, countries don't want to lend to us unless we can give them better rates and terms......need I go on?

Wake up!!!

Martin L. Shoemaker said...

A.W. asks a very good question:

and i will remind everyone that supposedly bill clinton screwing everything that moves was no one's business. so how is her possibly not screwing anything our business?

The Democrats trusted Clinton to say one thing and do another. They knew that he would support their agenda -- abortion specifically -- so they didn't care how he acted personally.

They fear Ms. O'Donnell may not be the hypocrite he is.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I'd much rather see the conversation go back to important things like spanking the monkey.


To spank or not to spank....that is the question.

Hagar said...

Was Garage here in the -70's, when the bills came due for Viet Nam and The Great Society?

Then Volcker, under Reagan, reined in the consequent inflation with interest rates running to 14-15 percent for mortgages and a recession with 12-14 percent unemployment.
Does Garage see anyone on the horizon today with the guts to wring out the nation like that? And even if he does, what exactly does he consider worth repeating the experience for?

former law student said...

and i will remind everyone that supposedly bill clinton screwing everything that moves was no one's business. so how is her possibly not screwing anything our business?

Christine O'Donnell felt so strongly about young people's masturbation she started a national youth movement, The Savior's Alliance for Lifting the Truth.

Now if Billy Jeff had felt so strongly about adultery he had started a dirty old man movement: Studs' Alliance for Lust and Turpitude -- then the two situations would be comparable.

We are so far in debt that we will never be able to pay it back.

At the end of WW II our national debt was an incredible 120% of GDP. Yet we made steady progress reducing our national debt as a percent of GDP year after year, until Reagan and the Bushes reversed the trend.

pashley said...

Who cares. Might even amount to a "Dan Quayle" moment (Dan was right), but again, who cares.

The more important insight is that the left is so unnerved by O'Donnell, so much so that they shot their bolt within minutes of her primary victory. This is the type of material that doesn't withstand too much daylight, so best shot off 2 days before the election.

Hagar said...

And I do not know if Germany and Zimbabwe actually ran out of paper to print currency on, but both resorted to handstamp larger denominations on bills already printed.
My mother had a collection of German marks altered from 10 or a 100 to 10,000, 100,000, 1 million, and so on.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

At the end of WW II our national debt was an incredible 120% of GDP. Yet we made steady progress reducing our national debt as a percent of GDP year after year, until Reagan and the Bushes reversed the trend.


You don't think that the unprecedented and obscene expansion of the entitlement society aka: Great Society foisted upon us by Lyndon Johnson had anything to do with it?

Nah....of course you don't.

Scott M said...

At the end of WW II our national debt was an incredible 120% of GDP. Yet we made steady progress reducing our national debt as a percent of GDP year after year, until Reagan and the Bushes reversed the trend.

That's disingenuous at best. At the end of WWII, what other industrialized, modern nation that could hold a candle to our manufacturing power wasn't in rubble? The world took the better part of 20 years just to get back on it's feet, mostly with our help, and the next 20 catching up quickly, mostly with our help.

By the time the 80's rolled around, the American economy was already starting to move from industry to service. Now we're limping along trying to do both and doing neither very well or cost-effectively. Thus, the rest of the world that has successfully overcome their WWII hangover is kicking our ass.

Further, our wonderful leaders decided that things were just so peachy here in the US that we could afford the Great Society.

So...not only don't we have the better part of the industrialized world in rubble, we have crushing, unfunded entitlements and public debt. Debt which is owed, in a very large part, to the very economy that IS industrialized and kicking our ass, however unfairly due to labor practices.

Explain to me how to the two situations are similar and your basis for thinking that we're going going to be able to slug it out the way things are going.

I will admit that I don't have enough economic chops to believe or disbelieve the punditry that says the real debt is so high we could never possibly pay it back... that it's literally bigger than all of the money in the world. However, I do know that we are spending way, way beyond our means and have way, way too much wasteful spending and a system of unnecessary and/or abused entitlements.

peter hoh said...

Craig wrote: The one idea intolerable to leftists is the idea that people have both the ability and the duty to control themselves in matters of sexual behavior. They view the sex drive in Bacchanalian fashion as an uncontrollable force that is dangerous to oppose. As Mark Steyn has noted, the left is willing to eliminate every other right that might have a possibility of hindering the left's goal of unrestrained sexual license.

Is that you, Larry?

Jeremy said...

Speaking of dumb fucks who represent the tea bagger movement:

PENSACOLA, Fla. — Anyone listening to Rush Limbaugh’s radio show Tuesday could be forgiven for thinking that Judge Roger Vinson has the federal government dead in his sights.

Mr. Limbaugh spent some time profiling Judge Vinson, a senior judge on the Federal District Court in Pensacola, who had just announced he would allow a legal challenge to the new health care law to advance to a full hearing. The conservative radio host informed his listeners that the judge was an avid hunter and amateur taxidermist who once killed three brown bears and mounted their heads over his courtroom door to “instill the fear of God into the accused.”

“This,” Mr. Limbaugh said, “would not be good news” for liberal supporters of the health law.

But, in fact, Judge Vinson has never shot anything other than a water moccasin (last Saturday, at his weekend cabin), is not a taxidermist and, as president of the American Camellia Society, is far more familiar with Camellia reticulata than with Ursus arctos.

Apparently, Mr. Limbaugh had fallen prey to an Internet hoax.

And the tea baggers just keep getting dumber by the day.

peter hoh said...

FLS, she's not a 41-year-old virgin.

Tim said...

Garage, not to pile on, but if you think the government cannot run out of money I suggest you check with the leaders of the Weimar Republic, or any one of several African countries (Zimbabwe springs to mind).

As to what can happen, I refer you to the first example above. If you think this country will not elect itself a President for life, then ask people who survived the Great Depression why they voted for FRD the 3rd and 4th times (hint: from talking to my mother, the only reason FDR is not still President is that he died.)

Paddy O said...

I'd say Althouse pretty much understands the Christian perspective. I'd connected the hand with stealing, but I suppose whatever that hand does that is wrong is applicable. Jesus was being deliberately provocative.

He also says some other stuff.

Limiting the link to only chapter five empties a bit of Jesus' rhetoric.

Go on to chapter six:

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


The Christian response to avoiding temptation is not to sit and absorb all the frustration. You are to redirect the energy towards others. You can choose to do what is shameful in secret, which is sin, or you can choose to do what is helpful, also in secret. The hand that gets cut off with the first is much better used in the second.

You are to turn your lust for self-gratification into the practice of helping those in need. You are to turn your selfish desires into generous exocentric love for others.

These two aspects have to go together. Otherwise the prohibitions become legalism and the charity becomes distorted by corruptions.

Jeremy said...

Scott - 300 Economists Warn Congress: Don't Kill Growth And Jobs In The Name Of Deficit Reduction

A small army of economists warned Congress on Thursday not to focus on deficit reduction instead of job creation or else risk a 1937-style double-dip recession.

"History suggests that a tenuous recovery is no time to practice austerity," says a statement signed by more than 300 economists and policy experts. "In the Great Depression, Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal generated growth and reduced the unemployment rate from 25 percent in 1932 to less than 10 percent in 1937.

However, the deficit hawks of that era persuaded President Roosevelt to reverse course prematurely and move toward budget balance. The result was a severe recession that caused the economy to contract sharply and sent the unemployment rate soaring."

Now, instead of whining about how I didn't tell you where you can find this article...take a minute to dome research on your own for a change.

A.W. said...

FLS

movement or not, it is IRRELEVANT TO THE JOB OF A SENATOR whether she gives herself a helping hand or not.

Sheesh.

And right now, there is literally not enough cash in the world to pay off our debt. when are you going to say it is too much?

roesch-voltaire said...

Just for some historical perspective. Onan’s transgression was one of birth control, not providing his dead brother with an heir, and not masturbation, according to rabbinical interpretation. The Christian church took a different stance particularly with St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) who taught that any sexual activity that did not lead to procreation was deviant, even within marriage, and of course ejaculation without coitus was very bad, as was deviation from face to face position. This hostility towards sex was offset by Jean Jacques Rousseau, who was frank about his masturbation. This craziness towards masturbation has its cycles, but to link to Jesus, or simple lust, as does O”Donnell is a very narrow view taking us back to the 1800s. That mind set that belief trumps all, allows her to make the many strange claims that alarmed even Karl Rove, and should alarm others.

blake said...

And where are the signs that any of this is happening?

All right. So we can take this as a concession that, as a practical matter, the government really CAN run out of money.

That's progress. Because a lot of people, garage, believe that it's possible to just keep printing money for whatever you need with no consequences.

That was my original point to Hoosier that keeps getting ignored. No inflation, or deflation, and the bond markets are overprescribed.

Here's a guy who lived through Chilean hyper-inflation in the '70s, and how he thinks it will happen. On the plus side, he points out that, while it sucks, it's not the end of the world.

I don't think I agree with him--I certainly hope he's wrong, because he regards hyper-inflation as a near certainty--but the thing to keep in mind is that there is a basic algebra to this which can't be messed with:

1. Money requires confidence in the issuing body

2. Reckless spending, defaulting, etc., undermine that confidence

It's as basic as physics that anything perceived as #2 will erode #1. This can be entirely a change in POV, as in, "OMG! They're only tulips!" or it can be an actual presentation of bad faith, as in, "OMG! They're defaulting on their loans."

I would think there would be some warning signals showing up there, and the people that have predicted that have been proven wrong so far.

The warning signals will all be there after the fact, you know?

Scott M said...

Hi, Jeremy. Wonderful to have you here. That has zero to do with what FLS and I are talking about, but thank you for your input. It's certainly interesting, if off topic.

By the by, were you born a tool or did you become that way after a life of disappointment?

seattleWa said...

People need to be taught to masturbate??

Somebody needs to tell Obama!! He can put masturbation lessons in the stimulus package!!

BWAHAHAHAHA!

peter hoh said...

Fred: Because what is really driving this tea party movement and the current election cycle is this: "It is the spending stupid!"

You and I have gone back and forth about this before. I think the Tea Party is going to have to appease social conservatives.

O'Donnell has a track record as a social conservative. Maybe she has track record as a fiscal conservative that extends beyond soundbites, but I haven't heard anything about it.

blake said...

Peter--

I must have missed those discussions, but I don't see why the Tea Party would have to appease anyone. It's a group coalesced around essentially economic concerns (Taxed Enough Already).

peter hoh said...

shouting thomas:
You have to work really hard to get AIDS, and the mechanism of infection is well known.


Tell that to Ryan White.

Marshal said...

"Christine O'Donnell felt so strongly about young people's masturbation she started a national youth movement, The Savior's Alliance for Lifting the Truth."

I wonder, is this true or is it the sort of thing which if said by O'Donnell would be evidence of mental instability? Since I suspect the latter, I'll take it as evidence of DTL's mental instability.

Scott M said...

I must have missed those discussions, but I don't see why the Tea Party would have to appease anyone. It's a group coalesced around essentially economic concerns (Taxed Enough Already).

I heard something yesterday about someone whining the Tea Party needs to do better to reach out to the Jewish community.

If they really want to change the way things are done, they need to dismiss such crap. Make it well known that EVERYONE is invited and police yourself to make sure the opposite is not happening. Thus, we might be able to put a stop to the endless special interest groups and classes that seem to pervade contemporary discourse.

Synova said...

"The days when sexual license was a sign of rebellion are long gone. Rebellion is the dominant theme of advertising and TV. Rebellion is the new conformity."

Rebellion is O'Donnell.

(Also, the "cut off your right hand" in context may well have meant masturbation, but it would be wrong to insist that is so. I think it's possible that the bits about "spilling seed" have more to do with property and inheritance than wasting some sperm.)

Jeremy said...

"An I.Q. of about 55 is O'Donnell."

The woman is an absolute dunce.

But, as usual, the local tea bagger crowd can't get enough of this moron.

Jeremy said...

99% of the tea baggers got a tax reduction via president Obama, but they don't read enough to even realize it.

garage mahal said...

people are NOT investing, they are purchasing hard assets like gold and silver, the last Treasury auction was a flop, countries don't want to lend to us unless we can give them better rates and terms......need I go on?

Foreign countries don't lend money to us, or finance our spending. What do we care if China or Japan buys our bonds? I would love to see the data on treasury auction flops, they are always overprescribed, and they NEVER fail. They are designed not to fail. We don't even issue bonds to fund our spending. The bond market exists only as a monetary tool to control the overnight fed funds rate and control excess reserves in the system. the auctions never fail because there is always excess reserves in the system with deficit spending.

Jeremy said...

peter hoh - So are you saying it's easy to contract AIDS?

Do any of you dolts ever actually read anything before posting this drivel?

Jeremy said...

Scotty - I could ask the same type of question of you.

Were you always a tea bagger at heart or is the fact that we have a black president what's got you all up in arms?

And were you sound asleep during the Bush years?

You should enter a whining contest...I have a feeling you could run away with it.

blake said...

and they NEVER fail. They are designed not to fail

Precisely what the Chilean guy says will cause the collapse.

Jeremy said...

Masturbation if one of the few times (especially for many of the local wing nuts here) that you are indeed making love to someone who does really love you. (compliments of W.A.)

Revenant said...

The fact that O'Donnell's belief is entirely consistent with the teachings of Jesus in no way rules out the possibility that the belief is deeply stupid.

shoutingthomas said...

Winner of this thread for post evoking maximum revulsion and annoyance:

Were you always a tea bagger at heart or is the fact that we have a black president what's got you all up in arms?

Cleverly juxtaposed homo reference and usual bigotry accusation wrapped up in one sentence!

Congratulations!

Revenant said...

They are designed not to fail

Like mortgage securities were?

Scott M said...

Were you always a tea bagger at heart or is the fact that we have a black president what's got you all up in arms?

Smaller government and limited spending? Yep. As far as the president goes, I'm on record here, both before and after the election as saying, "well, he won and won big. Let's see what he can do with it". Only to be nearly as disappointed as a great many on the left are with him.

And were you sound asleep during the Bush years?

Nope, left the GOP over Bush, as I've told you before, but you don't seem to grasp the concept.

You should enter a whining contest...I have a feeling you could run away with it

Probably. But then I try to excel at whatever I do. Merit has it's place.

A.W. said...

Jeremy

> Were you always a tea bagger at heart or is the fact that we have a black president what's got you all up in arms?

> And were you sound asleep during the Bush years?

The bush years is nothing compared to the obama years. obama has already increased the deficit 7 fold. our obligations are officially outstrippign the entire money supply. That means that if the government had every dollar in the world, it still couldn't pay it.

We do not judge the black race by this idiot president. But we are judging the democratic party by him.

Synova said...

"peter hoh - So are you saying it's easy to contract AIDS?

Do any of you dolts ever actually read anything before posting this drivel?
"

I forget how Ryan White got AIDS.

Most of us live in this world and some of us are old enough to remember it. The whole situation around AIDS was irrational. People were supposed to hold two utterly conflicting beliefs... that anyone could get AIDS, it wasn't a "gay" thing, it was an "everyone" thing... and that only a bigot would be afraid of getting AIDS because it was next to impossible to get.

But anyway, glad to see you agree with O'Donnell on that one Jeremy. Peter was just pointing out an exception.

alan markus said...

Would have much preferred this video over the one posted:
Cyndi Lauper - She Bop

MTV was great in the 80's!

Dust Bunny Queen said...

People need to be taught to masturbate??

Somebody needs to tell Obama!! He can put masturbation lessons in the stimulus package!!



Hell, why not!! We just spent 800,000 to teach African men how to wash their dicks.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/75198

Hagar said...

At the end of WWII, all the world owed the U.S. money, and American industrial production had not even got into high gear yet.

Today, the U.S. owes everybody money, and U.S. industrial production is nearly dead in the water.

Garage is delusional.

Revenant said...

And it's absolutely true. AIDS is a consequence of the infected person's lifestyle.

Saying "they aren't victims, it is a result of their lifestyle" is idiotic. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

alan markus said...

Just read Chuck Berry interview in Rolling Stone - he said he made some serious coin with this one:
My Ding-A-Ling

shoutingthomas said...

Saying "they aren't victims, it is a result of their lifestyle" is idiotic. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

I agree, sort of.

I have several friends who are infected with AIDS.

But, they are realistic about it. They don't spend a lot of time feeling sorry for themselves and blaming other people.

I feel compassion for them. But, I'm not looking for a scapegoat for their predicament.

Synova said...

"The fact that O'Donnell's belief is entirely consistent with the teachings of Jesus in no way rules out the possibility that the belief is deeply stupid."

Of course not.

It could be deeply stupid... what it isn't is wildly erratic or unbalanced.

I went to the link Fred4Pres (I think it was) gave and found all the top 10 "horrible" quotes by her to be more or less reasonable, if entirely unfashionable. As Jeremy pointed out... it's really hard to get AIDS. The complaint about sodomy was a complaint about public lewdness and simulated sex acts that were tolerated (she felt) because of a fear of being called homophobic. The only relevant question with that quote is if her description of the LA pride parade was accurate or not.

Those who want to paint O'Donnell as a crazy person not to be trusted need to be careful. Social cons and people with familiarity with conservative Christianity (or conservative any other religion) are not going to find talk about lust as a bad thing alarming. Even if they disagree about masturbation, the idea isn't bizarre. Those people won't be swayed into believing that O'Donnell is a crazy person. They're going to think that her attackers are crazy people.

But the reaction is bizarre. Middle of the road, centrist... moderate..., the swing voters could well be pushed *toward* O'Donnell. Not because they agree or because they are convinced that she's right on these social issues, but because they understand that people exist who believe differently than they do and perhaps they admire those who at least make an attempt to do something difficult.

Recall how wonderful everyone seemed to think that picture was of the little girl with the yellow dress, braids and bare feet?

That.

It may be unrealistic and idealized, but the gut reaction and longing for that idealized purity is far far more widespread than any practice of it.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Saying "they aren't victims, it is a result of their lifestyle" is idiotic. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.


So, if you repeatedly hit yourself over the head with a hammer and get brain damaged, this makes you a victim of Craftsman Tools?

I would say that the people who didn't know anything about AIDs in the beginning when it was an new emerging disease could be classified as victims. The mechanism, transmission and results of AIDS are known. People who contract it now through lifestyle (drug use, sexual practices), are as dumb as a bag of hammers,

A.W. said...

guys there are SOME victims of AIDS. like if a cheater catches it, and gives it to his faithful wife, blaming is a little harsh. i mean i suppose you could call her naive, but well, to be naive and stupid in love is human, right? And frankly can happen to most people.

Big Mike said...

If I were a Delaware resident and had choose between a person who held, some number of years ago, strange views on masturbation versus someone who, some number of years ago, described himself as a "bearded Marxist," then I'd choose the former over the latter.

I mean, back when Reid's favorite pet poodle was calling himself a Marxist it was already pretty plain that Marxism had failed everywhere, after lowering the standard of living for everyone.

Crazy Joe Biden will be followed by Crazy Chis Coons or Chris O'Donnell. Is there something leaching out of the soil thanks to three centuries of DuPont?

A.W. said...

Btw, i like James Taranto's attitude on this:

> Don Surber of the Charleston Daily News, dean of the West Virginia political blogosphere, thinks she can. He notes that O'Donnell's victory has driven the left to "lunacy." New York magazine complains that she's "not a big fan of evolution." TalkingPointsMemo.com accuses her of being "anti-masturbation." Seriously, anti-masturbation! These liberals really have a government program for everything. There's nothing they think Americans can do for themselves.

former law student said...

R-V presents a different argument against masturbation, a Thomist Natural Law argument. And this is a Catholic argument and not a Protestant, Bible-based one.

A Natural Law argument follows: Staring at my penis, it's obvious that it's meant to inject baby juice into my lawfully wedded wife. Any activity that deviates from this is unnatural and thus ungodly. Without the pleasure that accompanies the penile sneeze, qhy would anyone put up with raising a child for the next two decades? Clearly such an experience should be saved for baby-making. So, careful not to touch it, I cover it up once more with my roomy garments.

garage mahal said...

Blake
Interesting read. He's predicting a run on Treasuries this fall, or no later than fall of 2011. We shall see.

peter hoh said...

Marshal @2:09 -- are you actually saying that you don't believe that O'Donnell formed a group named S.A.L.T.?

peter hoh said...

Jeremy, do you read anything before your knee jerks in response?

Shouting Thomas had written the following:

AIDS is a consequence of the infected person's lifestyle.

You have to work really hard to get AIDS, and the mechanism of infection is well known.

Who else is to blame, except for the person who engages in the behavior.


I pointed out a glaring exception to his analysis. Ryan White was infected through a transfusion. It had nothing to do with his "lifestyle."

Similarly, there are infants born with HIV. HIV isn't always the result of a lifestyle choice, and that was my point.

Synova, thanks for coming to my defense.

blake said...

garage,

I'm not saying I believe him, but I am buying silver and gold....

A.W. said...

FLS

actually you are not getting the catholic argument.

They believe that reproduction is a part of the continuing creation of us. So they believe that wasting sperm is wasting the stuff of creation. they believe that using birth control pill is wrong, because you are artificially preventing creation. they believe that in vitro is wrong, because it is artificially helping. the only influence you are allowed to excercise is more or less the rhythm method, where with calenders and thermometers you learn to know when a woman is ovulating and target that time or avoid it depending on whether you want to have children. which isn't really consistent, either, but whatever.

mind you, i don't support that point of view. i am positively pro... um... self help. but that is how it has been explained to me.


wv: "nonmen." heh.

Marshal said...

peter hoh said...
Marshal @2:09 -- are you actually saying that you don't believe that O'Donnell formed a group named S.A.L.T.?

There are actually three things I question in his statement.

Did she form it or join it?
Is it national?
Are there enough people in it to legitimately call it a movement?

Or is each of these an aggrandizing embellishment meant to make a relatively minor faith based social work seem sinister?

Paddy O said...

New York magazine complains that she's "not a big fan of evolution." TalkingPointsMemo.com accuses her of being "anti-masturbation."

The pressing issues of our Republic are under siege!

Chris Coons should use this picture as part of a campaign strategy showing exactly what good Americans really see as important, and how they won't stand for Christine O'Donnell.

david7134 said...

I don't get it. I would feel that I was in a more moral environment in a prison than sitting in the Senate or House of Representatives. Whenever I meet with political people I know I always feel like I need a bath. Somewhat like when you go to a used car lot. Yet people are dissecting everything about this poor woman. All I want her to do is vote no, except were it involves proactively reducing the size of DC.

Trooper York said...

Best masturbation song ever!

I got to hand it to me!

Tim said...

Hey Jeremy, if you collect a paycheck, take a look at that first one after Jan 1 and tell me about that big tax reduction under Obama.

Scott M said...

In the interest of health self-love, which I'm sure the massive Obamacare bill has some sort of regulation (and fee) for, am I correct in understanding that, due to the law being passed, every single business, regardless of sector or size, will have to issue a 1099 for every single purchase over $600? Is this B2B only?

If my understanding of this issue is correct, I'm wondering while they didn't use that as a major selling point...hmmmm....

E.M. Davis said...

Garage-

Ask Greece how that government paying for stuff and just magically making money, etc. business is working.

shoutingthomas said...

The anti-mastubatory agenda of the Republican Party was exposed long ago in the final post of BlameBush!

http://blamebush.typepad.com/blamebush/

It's Official: Republicans Hate Sex

Without help from the Fed, how will Americans continue to properly masturbate?

ralph said...

Christine is putting on a flannel nightgown and letting it ride up her thigh.....

oh my; I'll be in my bunk.....and I'm neither Irish nor catholic......not that there's anything wrong with that

shoutingthomas said...

Clearly what we need is a stimulus program for masturbation.

That will really get the economy growing again!

peter hoh said...

Blake, are you buying gold through Glenn Beck's recommended source?

Scott M said...

Clearly what we need is a stimulus program for masturbation.

That will really get the economy growing again!


Yes, it will fill out and bang right along for a short while, shooting up to climax in a huge euphoric peak, but than the recovery will quickly go flaccid, putting the entire economy into what leading economists refer to as "turtling".

bagoh20 said...

"So Castle was tossed away a politician that kept his word for decades because the Tea Party wants to be angry and "anti" everybody."

If she wins, it may not be the best example of the Tea Party effect, but I believe that a completely blind "anti everybody" approach would still improve the legislative body at the current time in politics.

But in fact, it is not a blind anti everybody approach, it can look that way in some cases, and I can live with that.

If a movement is gonna have a blind default position, anti-incumbent is as close to wisdom as I think it ever gets. I'll take that, but we all know it's much better and more nuanced than that in most cases. Mileage will vary with determined critics.

Scott M said...

For shame bagoh,

If the last 30 years haven't taught you that the right is not allowed nuance, I don't know what will. Please return to your knuckle-dragging, already in progress.

former law student said...

AW, I dont think we disagree. Inspection of the penis helps us understand God's plan for it -- it is meant to "go off" only where the sperm can produce babies. Which obviously is not inside a Kleenex or sweaty sock. Encasing it in a balloon obviously thwarts the Divine Plan as well which is to let the little wrigglers reach the egg. Not to mention the wrongness of a woman's tampering with her baby-making apparatus.

Now there are other bits of God's Plan for us to discover. If one's missile fires when you are asleep, unconscious, obviously this is because God arranged it so. And not every act of intercourse leads automatically to a baby. Nor does a husband have to perform the marital duty every day. So the controlled abstinence of they rhythm method still complies with God's Law.

Revenant said...

The mechanism, transmission and results of AIDS are known. People who contract it now through lifestyle (drug use, sexual practices), are as dumb as a bag of hammers,

Not "sexual practices". Sex. The "lifestyles" that lead to HIV infection are (a) IV drug use (easy to avoid) and (b) having sex with anyone, ever.

Good luck on avoiding (b). Outside of a few monks and nuns, few do.

sonicfrog said...

Jeremy, there many more economists who will point out that the government cuts did not cause the recession, but the tightening of the monetary supply by the Fed was the prime culprit. This forced banks to tighten money supplies, read tighten credit requirements for loans to businesses. When the govt cut back on spending on programs such as the AAA, businesses couldn't expand to grow because money supplies were too tight. Couple that with labor unrest here at home and economic downturns in Europe (which recovered even slower than we did from the Great Depression) and you have a recipe for the 1937 recession.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the cuts were inconsequential, but, like the people who want to blame the current Great Recession on Freddy and Fannie alone, that singular view ignores everything else that has to go wrong economically to produce a worldwide economic of these proportions.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Good luck on avoiding (b). Outside of a few monks and nuns, few do.


And spouses who are faithful to each other who are not already infected will also avoid AIDS There are really quite a few of those types of people around you know.

When my husband and I were dating, over 18 years ago, but not yet intimate, we were both coming out of bad marriages with unfaithful spouses and since neither of us had ever been a Monk or Nun in our earlier years, I insisted that we both be AIDs tested and wait the appropriate time recommended by the medical studies. (Actually, I had already been tested since I had increased my life insurance when I became a single mother I wanted to make sure that if anything happened to me, my child would be able to go to college etc)

Since this wasn't the 'first rodeo' for either of us, it wasn't that big of a deal. My exact words: "I love you honey, but not enough to die over". It would be a big deal if either of us had refused to be tested or to wait.

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