May 12, 2009

Tax soda to pay for health care?

But only sugared soda, not diet soda?

Michael Jacobson, executive director of the Center for Science in the Public Interest, says:
"Soda is clearly one of the most harmful products in the food supply, and it's something government should discourage the consumption of."
It's just sugar. Lots of things are full of sugar. Why single out the watery versions of sugar? And why be so sure that diet soda is not worse? Quite aside from the strange chemicals, diet soda seems to free many people to pig out on other fattening foods. Our terrible obesity problem correlates with the consumption of diet soda, not sugar.

In any case, what is the point, to raise money or to change what we consume? These are opposite goals.

But maybe I should be all for this devious scheme. I rarely drink soda, diet or sugared. And tax some other things I don't use, why don't you?

197 comments:

The Drill SGT said...

So shouldn't we pay people to drink red wine instead of taxing it?

Can I get a discount on my health insurance based on my Cabernet usage?

traditionalguy said...

This "scientist" is on to a new way to purefy the carbon based life forms polluting his planet. Deny them cheap access to sugar...You do know what is in sugar don't you. Then move on to a tax on potatoes and cake and cookies. At last we are being scientific again.

Palladian said...

Whenever I read the words "Center for Science in the Public Interest" I have the same reaction as when I read the words "Family Research Council", both dogmatic moralist organizations with totalitarian notions of the State's power to regulate and restrict my freedom. These kinds of organizations would be dismissible if they didn't so frequently have their fingers so close to the trigger of power.

Crimso said...

I think your brain cells will rise up and begin having Sweet Tea Parties...

In response, Obama will say "Let them eat ketone bodies."

knox said...

The campaign to convince people that coffee is bad for them keeps failing, so now soda's in the crosshairs.

k*thy said...

Can I get a discount on my health insurance based on my Cabernet usage?Until the time your premiums flip because you've had to enter rehab...

MadisonMan said...

The Public Interest in the Center for Science in the Public Interest isn't.

And can I add that the PhD appended to Michael Jacobson's name at the CSPI website does not impress?

Sincerely,

MadisonMan, PhD.
(Dr. of Milk Drinking, not soda)

Larry J said...

Groups like the "Center for Science in the Public Interest" are little more than a handful of zealots with a fax machine. Reporters are lazy, so they'll print the press releases from outfits like this without stopping to ask just who they are and what are their qualifications. It's like how they Press keeps going to John Pike of the Federation of American Scientists and GlobalSecurity.org on military or space matters. He's in no way qualified to discuss any of these topics but he makes for an easy soundbite.

I've actually considered doing an experiment. I want to create a fake organization and send out press releases to various media outlets and see how many of them get reported without any follow up. Actually, the experiment would be better to set up two fake organizations, one liberal and the other conservative. Each would send out releases with their slant and see which one is more likely to get reported.

Palladian said...

And this is how totalitarianism begins, by the way. The State usurps some basic industry like health care then claims that it has the right to regulate your lifestyle "because of the enormous cost of bad lifestyle choices to State-run health care". Then they usurp another basic industry like the petroleum industry and then claim that they have the right to regulate what you drive and where you can drive it "because of the enormous cost to the State-run petroleum industry and the enormous strain on the environment caused by your bad choices".

Soon every aspect of your life is administered and regulated by the State. And it doesn't happen by totalitarian thugs suddenly breaking down your door one night. They seduce you slowly, with offers of universal health care and economic stimulus, until they're in bed with you and you suddenly realize that while they've been whispering in your ear and caressing you, you've been handcuffed and tied to the bedposts.

Then they can rape you as often and as violently as they like.

It seems a trivial thing, soda, something I rarely ever drink. But the trip to hell begins with a single step and a 4 dollar can of Coke.

TosaGuy said...

What if we taxed the things that the neopuritan food police or affluent liberal yuppies enjoyed instead of things typically enjoyed by regular people?

Hoosier Daddy said...

In any case, what is the point, to raise money or to change what we consume? These are opposite goals..

Not really. Hell the expansion of SCHIP program is funded largely by tobbaco taxes which in turn is causing a massive decline in consumption which is a good thing. On the other hand, less consumption means less taxes and if they can't fund SCHIP with tobacco taxes then that means they'll need to raise revenue with another form of taxes. So it's really not an opposite goal, its killing two birds with one stone. Eliminate or drastically reduce tobacco use and then later claim the need for increased taxes because of the children. It's a win win for more government.

Palladian said...

"What if we taxed the things that the neopuritan food police or affluent liberal yuppies enjoyed instead of things typically enjoyed by regular people?"

They'd still buy it. If you put a 4 dollar tax on things at Whole Foods, no one would notice since everything there is already marked up by about 300 percent.

SMGalbraith said...

"Soda is clearly one of the most harmful products in the food supply
Yes, this is a person I'm going to listen to.

"One of the most harmful...." And "clearly".

How many times a day do you think he says this? Fifty? One hundred? One thousand?

Reminds me of that line by Rousseau where he argued that the state "must force men to be free" because men won't always make the right choices.

Force them...to be free...

NKVD said...

It is not easy to find sodas with sugar in them. Most use HFCS and that stuff is truly harmful.

Zeb Quinn said...

Today it may be soda pop, tomorrow it may include diet soda, but almost always it's the consumer aspect of American society that's in the crosshairs of "public interest" groups. Whatever is popular, whatever people are spending their money on.

Hoosier Daddy said...

They seduce you slowly, with offers of universal health care and economic stimulus, until they're in bed with you and you suddenly realize that while they've been whispering in your ear and caressing you, you've been handcuffed and tied to the bedposts.

The biggest beef I have with this is that a fraction of the working population is actually paying for all these government services. When roughly 40% of the nation is paying for the rest of the 60% I call bullshit. Honestly I'd have less of an issue with universal health care as long as every swinging cod is paying thier fair share. That means whether you're making $20K or $250K, you have to kick in something otherwise you're nothing but a hanger on with no stake in the system, just dependency.

Palladian said...

Michael Jacobson is the guy who initiated the short-lived acrylamide in fried foods scare of the mid-2000s.

CSPI is the PETA of food moralists. Wait, PETA are food moralists too...

By the way, Here's Michael Jacobson. He looks just as I thought he would look.

former law student said...

The state has no compunction in taxing my favorite beverages, merely because they contain a small amount of alcohol, so I have no sympathy here.

There is a scientific basis for treating sugary liquids differently from sugary foods: I have read recently that sugars the body drinks do not create satiety.

theobromophile said...

Something tells me that the Iowa/Midwest corn producers are not going to be happy with this. (As a slight point: soda usually contains high fructose corn syrup, not sugar.)

The more logical step, rather than daemonising a particular food group, would be to just tax sugar, fat, corn syrup, and the like. Not that I, as a cocaovore, would actually endorse any of that, but it would at least make sense.

They seduce you slowly, with offers of universal health care and economic stimulus, until they're in bed with you and you suddenly realize that while they've been whispering in your ear and caressing you, you've been handcuffed and tied to the bedposts.If it weren't the government doing the seducing, caressing, and handcuffing to the bedposts, that would be kind of hot.

Palladian said...

"I have read recently that sugars the body drinks do not create satiety."

Did you read that in a fortune cookie?

Hoosier Daddy said...

I know I mentioned this once before but if you have never seen the movie, I recommend watching Demolition Man with Wesley Snipes and Sly Stallone. Typical action flick set in the near future where all 'bad things' are illegal (swearing, fast food, tobacco, only health food is allowed, etc. )It seemed ridiculous at the time but considering how we're either taxing it to extiction (tobbaco, soda) or making it outright illegal (trans-fats) it is eerily prophetic.

Palladian said...

High fructose corn syrup is no substitute for real sugar.

AJ Lynch said...

The campaign for govt health care is in full swing. Yesterday, we saw them orchestrate a media blitz that claims they found $2 Trillion in future savings (who knew that a labor union, SEIU, could cut health care costs) and now today this libtard group suggests a way to find more tax revs to fund it.

I wonder what they will do tomorrow?

k*thy said...

The truth is, obesity is at the core of our health problems and health costs, in this country. To discourage it's use (sugared and diet) with a bit of a tax has a lot of up-side to it.

former law student said...

Did you read that in a fortune cookie?

Is your Googlefinger broken?

Here's a skeptical news story from three years ago that you might enjoy:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060305/news_1n5soda.html

hdhouse said...

Palladian said...
"But the trip to hell begins with a single step and a 4 dollar can of Coke."

And that sums up a lot of the non-thought on this board...expect the worst and plan that all parties involved will behave badly. Such low expectations you have.

the point of the article is sound. aside from the gazillion plastic bottles and tin cans sugared drinks do very little for anyone except help people get fat faster, destroy teeth and eat up stomach linings.

former law student said...

High fructose corn syrup is no substitute for real sugar.

The dreaded Whole Foods sells a number of "cane juice" or otherwise sucrose sweetened carbonated beverages. Dr. Brown's Black Cherry is very good.

Portions have changed, too. My mother coming home from high school would stop with her gal pals for a seven ounce Coke, not a 64 ounce MegaGulp.

chickenlittle said...

This may all just be a sly why to get the HFCS out of soda and instead get it (the corn syrup) into fermentors to make ethanol.

Darcy said...

This is what the party in charge right now is best at. Is this a surprise to people? And good question, Althouse. Is it only wrong-headed/dangerous/offensive when it hurts your own pocketbook?

ElcubanitoKC said...

They have thought of something similar beforeThey are not getting a cent from me, I quit drinking soda/pop/coke in 2005.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

High fructose corn syrup is no substitute for real sugar.

Absolutely. As anyone who has ever had a Coke made in Mexico or Latin America can attest, there is no comparison. Coke made with cane sugar versus corn syrup. The Mexican Coke wins hands down. Rum and Coke with cane sugar..... YUM.

This government intrusion into every aspect of our lives is getting worse and worse. First they come for the Crisco (ruining my southern fried chicken) then they came for the incandescent lights and now Obama is planning to regulate our heating by remote control. :-) I'm being sarcastic a bit here but I'm also very serious. As someone else said. It is the little things and it is insidious.

It won't end until WE put a stop to it.

Palladian said...

"aside from the gazillion plastic bottles and tin cans sugared drinks do very little for anyone except help people get fat faster, destroy teeth and eat up stomach linings."

Probably true. But why is that your business?

And I know you're 89 years old and in some sort of facility for the deranged, but soda cans aren't made of tin anymore, but aluminum. And aluminum is the easiest and most cost-effective consumer packaging material to recycle.

Aaron said...

Because once we are all paying for health insurance, then the government will have the right to run your entire life in the name of keeping health care costs low. never mind the fact that in fact a heart attack at 40 is about the cheapest way to die available, no, no, these busybodies will run your whole life.

Don't believe me? they used exactly this issue in NYC to ban trans-fatty acids. This new concept of liberalism is amazing. You are free to committ sexual acts that were once banned as sodomy, but you are not free to smoke. But you know, only one of those activities were legal at the founding.

It seems to me that if gay sex is a matter of free choice, so should eating a cheeseburger and having a soda with it.

AJ Lynch said...

Speaking of choice, here is some of this morning's news.

If you are under 21, credit card companies must get your parents' approval to give you a credit card.

Don't worry though, you can still get an abortion or the morning after pill without Mom or Dad's knowledge.

Sofa King said...

HFCS is fructose, which is sugar, it's just not sucrose.

Freeman Hunt said...

Perhaps each day the State Nannies should like to sit us down in Community Circles where we can be Given sippy cups with State Approved Healthful Beverages and State Approved Healthful Snacks, and if all of us should behave oh so well we shall be Allowed fifteen minutes to play on the State Approved Padding Ensconced Jungle Gym.

Hoosier Daddy said...

And that sums up a lot of the non-thought on this board...expect the worst and plan that all parties involved will behave badly. Such low expectations you have.
.

Isn't that pretty much the bedrock of contemporary liberal ideology; low expectations of all? Isn't that why you insist that the Federal government pay for cradle to grave care plus asswiping services in between because it takes a village to raise child?

AJ Lynch said...

Freeman:

Maybe we should buy the domain name stateapproved.org

former law student said...

you can still get an abortion or the morning after pill without Mom or Dad's knowledge.

The problem is that girls can have intercourse without Mom or Dad's written approval.

I'd see it as girls can't handle credit any better than they could handle pregnancy, childbirth, or parenthood.

Back to ethanol: A combination of drinking trends and MADD meant a decline in corn likker consumption during the 1970s. The second oil shock promoted adding ethanol to gas to stretch fuel supplies and (all together now) reduce our dependence on foreign oil. One result was that ADM bought the Hiram Walker distillery in Peoria,Illinois around 1980.

Tibore said...

Ok, if this isn't Nanny-State-ism, I really don't know what is.

knox said...

The truth is, obesity is at the core of our health problems and health costs, in this country. To discourage it's use (sugared and diet) with a bit of a tax has a lot of up-side to it.

Everything's harmful in excess. Take soda away, and obese people will just consume something else in excess.

Then what?

theobromophile said...

The truth is, obesity is at the core of our health problems and health costs, in this country. To discourage it's use (sugared and diet) with a bit of a tax has a lot of up-side to it.Actually, not so much. It's cheaper, from a lifelong cost perspective, to have people be obese and bite the dust when they are 50. They die of a heart attack, never collect Social Security, never retire, and don't hit the medical system for 30 years with various ailments.

If you actually wanted to reduce health care spending, you would push to increase obesity. Dead people are cheap.

former law student said...

obese people will just consume something else in excess.

Tax M&Ms and jelly beans.

Austria for years has taxed ice cream -- that should raise a lot of revenue in teetotaling states like Utah.

hdhouse said...

Palladian said...
"Probably true. But why is that your business?And I know you're 89 years old and in some sort of facility for the deranged, but soda cans aren't made of tin anymore, but aluminum. And aluminum is the easiest and most cost-effective consumer packaging material to recycle."

Such easy pickings...first of all "tin can" is an expression as is "pin head" (knowing full well that your head isn't made of pins....but I digress). Yes aluminum cans recycle well but about 20 BILLLION of them a year don't make it back for their 5cent deposit. Plastic bottles not recycled approach 40 billion and they last about 1000 years.

so why should i care? why is that "my business"? are you nuts?

former law student said...

It's cheaper, from a lifelong cost perspective, to have people be obese and bite the dust when they are 50.

But it doesn't happen that way. My Grandmother was obese for most of her life, and was chronically ill from her fifties on. Taking some two dozen pills every day, she lived to be 87.

Michael McNeil said...

High fructose corn syrup is no substitute for real sugar.

Okay, let's see… via Encyclopædia Britannica:

fructose, a member of a group of carbohydrates known as simple sugars, or monosaccharides. Fructose, along with glucose, occurs in fruits, honey, and syrups; it also occurs in certain vegetables. It is a component, along with glucose, of the disaccharide sucrose, or common table sugar.”

So, where does one find this supposedly non-fructose containing “real sugar”?

Jason (the commenter) said...

They're just running out of ways to tax tobacco is all. Like tobacco taxes, a soda tax will probably hurt the poor more than the rich. The poor will probably cut back on their fruit and vegetable consumption to be able to afford soda.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Dead people are cheap..

Longshanks: Not the archers. Arrows cost money. Use the Irish, the dead cost nothing.

Ann Althouse said...

"HFCS is fructose, which is sugar, it's just not sucrose."

Thanks. It just amazes me that people don't know what sugar is! And I remember back in the 80s when people thought fructose was fine but sucrose was terrible. I knew a perfectly intelligent lawprof who asserted that. It's all sugar, I said. And I don't think sugar is particularly good or bad. It's just empty calories. It's for you to decide if you want or need some empty calories. Maybe you do!

Jason (the commenter) said...

When I hear of a government trying novel ways to raise money I can only assume its balance sheets are in terrible shape.

Michael McNeil said...

Back to ethanol: A combination of drinking trends and MADD meant a decline in corn likker consumption during the 1970s.MADD wasn't even founded until 1980.

Joe said...

Many fruit juices have more sugar per ounce than soda; are they going to tax orange and apple juice?

Darcy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Darcy said...

Only if people are still fat and costing "us" money, Joe.

Joe said...

Actually, not so much. It's cheaper, from a lifelong cost perspective, to have people be obese and bite the dust when they are 50. They die of a heart attack, never collect Social Security, never retire, and don't hit the medical system for 30 years with various ailments.Too bad being overweight or even obese is not a predictor of heart attacks or just about any ailment. Diabetes is associated with being overweight, but which is causative isn't clear (nor does diabetes affect only those who are overweight.)

In fact, overweight people live longer.

Damn that actual science.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Althouse : And I don't think sugar is particularly good or bad. It's just empty calories.

Blasphemy! It's like saying "love is just an emotion". I'm reminded of the story of the King who was mad when his daughter said she loved him like salt. Don't eat an Althouse dessert!

Palladian said...

"So, where does one find this supposedly non-fructose containing “real sugar”?"

"Real Sugar" refers to "cane sugar". As you know, the high-fructose corn syrup used in soft drinks is approximately 55% fructose and 45% glucose. Cane sugar is nearly 100% sucrose. Different molecules with different structures. Sucrose, in my opinion, tastes better in foods and drinks and has a more positive effect on the mouth-feel of food and drinks as well.

Dust Bunny Queen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dust Bunny Queen said...

so why should i care? why is that "my business"? are you nuts?


No. Why DO you care what other people do? How is it your business what I eat or drink?

BTW: I don't drink sodas more than once or twice a month and only when I'm out for lunch at a restaurant, so a tax on sodas would have no personal effect.

former law student said...

MADD wasn't even founded until 1980.

Since it was the most significant group in the anti-DUI movement that began around 1975, I used MADD as a convenient shorthand. But MADD had many predecessors [1]

1. See Marshall, Mac, and Oleson, Alice, "In the Pink: MADD and Public Health Policy in the 1990s," Journal of Public Health Policy 15:54-68, 1994.

former law student said...

How is it your business what I eat or drink?Fat people use up a lot of health care: doctor visits, blood and urine tests, blood pressure and cholesterol pills. All of this raises the cost of health insurance.

Joe: I've read it's not so much that overweight people live longer, but an artifact of data gathering: dying people lose weight.

Sofa King said...

As you know, the high-fructose corn syrup used in soft drinks is approximately 55% fructose and 45% glucose. Cane sugar is nearly 100% sucrose. Different molecules with different structures.

Indeed, sucrose is a disaccharide consisting of...one molecule of fructose attached to one molecule of glucose.

I'll grant you there is a slight difference in taste, but for the calorie-conscious, fructose tastes sweeter than sucrose, so you need less of it.

Sofa King said...

Also, beet sugar is sucrose as well, so "sucrose" != "cane sugar." Just FYI.

Michael McNeil said...

“Real Sugar” refers to “cane sugar.” As you know, the high-fructose corn syrup used in soft drinks is approximately 55% fructose and 45% glucose. Cane sugar is nearly 100% sucrose. Different molecules with different structures. Sucrose, in my opinion, tastes better in foods and drinks and has a more positive effect on the mouth-feel of food and drinks as well.

You didn't read what I posted. Fructose is a principal component (along with glucose) of sucrose, and is found in ordinary table sugar, including cane sugar.

So, once again I ask: where does one find this supposedly non-fructose containing “real sugar”?

theobromophile said...

Quickly, since I have to run:

"Obese" elderly live longer than non-obese elderly. I'll try to find the cite for it, but I'm almost certain that unhealthy, fat people actually cost the system less than healthy people who live a long time.

Former Law Student: not to snark, but you're obviously not a scientist. One anecdote is not a representative sample.

Re: HFCS v. sugar. HFCS has about 55% fructose and 45% glucose, not the 50/50 mix you would find if you were to break down sugar into its component parts. As for the last element of that (off the top of my head): when you break down sugar, it undergoes stereoisomeric inversion, which, obviously, changes the chemical nature of it. Saying that sugar is just two molecules bonded together, so therefore, it should act like those individual molecules, is like saying that water should act like hydrogen and oxygen.

Sofa King said...

Fat people use up a lot of health care: doctor visits, blood and urine tests, blood pressure and cholesterol pills. All of this raises the cost of health insurance.

So do people with STD's. Is it therefore automatically my business who you're schtupping?

former law student said...

One anecdote is not a representative sample.Grandma's build was fairly typical of the residents in her home. Are you a gerontologist?

former law student said...

Is it therefore automatically my business who you're schtupping?

Hmm... I don't think the problems are of the same order.

Put it this way: There's a Coke machine in the breakroom -- just how easy is it for you to get something strange?

dbp said...

Sucrose is a dimer consisting of one fructose and one glucose. In metabolic terms it isn't any different from corn syrup, but it certainly does taste different in foods and drinks.

chickenlittle said...

Careful there dbp. "Dimer" denotes two of something the same, which sucrose is not.

Michael McNeil said...

As for the last element of that (off the top of my head): when you break down sugar, it undergoes stereoisomeric inversion, which, obviously, changes the chemical nature of it. Saying that sugar is just two molecules bonded together, so therefore, it should act like those individual molecules, is like saying that water should act like hydrogen and oxygen.

Reference please!

Stereoisomers are related molecules in which all the atoms are linked together in the same order, but spatially twisted into a slightly different three-dimensional shape. Thus, a “stereoisomeric inversion” would appear to be a contradiction in terms — making your last inference above nonsensical.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Fat people use up a lot of health care: doctor visits, blood and urine tests, blood pressure and cholesterol pills. All of this raises the cost of health insurance.

If I drink sodas, how do you know I'm fat?

As to the rising cost of insurance with excessive use, I agree. But if I'm paying for it, and it is more expensive because may have health issues, how is that your business?

Perhaps when we get government rationed health care you can do a cost benefit analysis and determine that it is too expensive to treat fat people and they should just die. Hmmmmmm? Or that the 55 year old doesn't deserve a shoulder replacement or knee surgery because the amount of taxes that can be confiscated over their remaining working lifetime won't repay the cost of the surgery.

Do you really want government actuaries measuring our lives and rationing our health care. It's bad enough when insurance companies do it through their rate tier structures.

I know what your (and the so called liberal/progressives) REAL agenda is. You want to control every aspect of our lifes and you plan to use the "it's for your own good" excuse.

Be careful. That excuse can come back and bite YOU in the ass. It's the camel's nose under the tent.

dbp said...

Dimer is used for two structurally similar molecules. So, two sugars, or two ammino acids or two nucleic acids, etc.

At least that is how it was always used in converstation as well as journal articles back when I was in a research lab.

chickenlittle said...

So, once again I ask: where does one find this supposedly non-fructose containing “real sugar”?

Michael, you have to look at labels these days. A few higher end sodas are marked with "cane sugar" and contain sucrose instead of HFCS.

Sofa King said...

Saying that sugar is just two molecules bonded together, so therefore, it should act like those individual molecules, is like saying that water should act like hydrogen and oxygen.

Water does act like hydrogen and oxygen when you break it down into its components, just as sucrose acts like glucose and fructose when your body breaks it down into its components.

MadisonMan said...

Beets can't give you good brown sugar, or good molasses. Mmmm...molasses. That's the benefit of cane sugar.

Those HFCS ads (What? You get dietary information from your hair stylist?) annoy me just as much as CSPI press releases, btw. The simple truth is (IMO) that HFCS is the spoonful of cheap sugar that makes the lousily-made food go down. But if there's a market for it, why not?

Disclaimer: The family owns a corn/soybean farm in Ill-annoy, so I get money from the demand generated by HFCS and especially ethanol.

dbp said...

Out of curiosity, I just looked it up:

The term homodimer is used when the two molecules are identical (e.g. A-A) and heterodimer when they are not (e.g. A-B).

Now my memory is refreshing, I believe we used all three terms, with dimer used when it was clear from context which kind we meant.

Sofa King said...

Michael, you have to look at labels these days. A few higher end sodas are marked with "cane sugar" and contain sucrose instead of HFCS.

His point, and mine, is that "sucrose" is a compound of fructose and glucose. Maybe if I say it louder...SUCROSE CONTAINS FRUCTOSE.

former law student said...

But if I'm paying for it, and it is more expensive because may have health issues, how is that your business?

Typically insurance spreads costs among the subscribers based on their demographics. If you have, for example, Aetna, all Aetna purchasers pay a portion of your health care, but the cost for women your age is based on the amount of health care women your age consume.

If you run up the tab, women your age will all pay a little more.

former law student said...

SUCROSE CONTAINS FRUCTOSE

Sucrose doesn't separate into glucose and fructose till it hits your stomach acids.

Sofa King said...

Sucrose doesn't separate into glucose and fructose till it hits your stomach acids.

So?

Smilin' Jack said...

The problem isn't sugar, the problem is fat people. We need to tax fat people. Not only do they use more than their share of health care, they take up too much space in general. They're also unsightly and block our view of the attractive thin people behind them. They should pay for the many costs they impose on society.

chickenlittle said...

dbp: funny how the word dimer parallels the word marriage. And not to be pedantic, but I don't think the term "dimer" is common in sugar chemistry.

As for the effect of stereochemistry and molecular properties, just consider the huge differences between cellulose and starch and what causes them.

former law student said...

So?

for the calorie-conscious, fructose tastes sweeter than sucrose, so you need less of it

Sucrose has a different mouthfeel, and if this assertion were true, people would consume less of an HFCS sweetened drink.

But I doubt this, because Coke with HFCS has the same calories as Coke made with sucrose (available for Passover).

But the point is that the assertion that sucrose = glucose and fructose is true only in one's stomach, not in your mouth.

Sofa King said...

Whether some people prefer the feel or taste of sucrose is not the issue. There's no accounting for taste, after all. Personally, I can't tell the difference in blind testing. What IS the issue is the hysteria about HFCS and how "bad" it is compared to sucrose.

Buford Gooch said...

The Center for Science in the Public Interest has no real involvement with science nor the public interest. This is a group of radical whackos who has had nearly every warning proved false, after some of said warnings caused immense financial damage, sometimes to entire industries (think Alar).

Michael McNeil said...

Sucrose doesn't separate into glucose and fructose till it hits your stomach acids.

It isn't “stomach acids” that breaks down sucrose but the enzyme sucrase secreted by the small intestine.

Jeremy said...

for hd and fls, in all seriousness why shouldn't this also be extended to candy bars, red meat, unprotected sex, getting pregnant or doing extreme sports?

-The Other Jeremy

Michael McNeil said...

As for the effect of stereochemistry and molecular properties, just consider the huge differences between cellulose and starch and what causes them.

The principal difference between starches and cellulose, as far as food value for humans and animals is concerned, is that animals and we can make the enzyme α-amylase (included in saliva as well as secreted by the pancreas) which breaks down starches into sugar, but do not possess the enzyme cellulase (only some bacteria and certain protozoa know about that) for breaking down cellulose into sugar.

former law student said...

It isn't “stomach acids” that breaks down sucrose but the enzyme sucrase secreted by the small intestine.

So Michael answers his own question. Sucrose retains its chemical identity until it is broken down in the small intestine.

rhhardin said...

The diet green iced tea isn't bad. It's convenient and then makes useable dog toys because it crackles when smushed.

Unsmushed.

Smushed.

Chris Althouse Cohen said...

I read somewhere that drinking soda contributes to Alzheimer's and I haven't been drinking soda since then. Something about the chemicals in soda, not the sugar. I will occasionally drink Sprite, which I for some reason imagine isn't that bad.

Michael McNeil said...

So Michael answers his own question. Sucrose retains its chemical identity until it is broken down in the small intestine.

I didn't ask any such question. Nor does the exact place that sucrose is broken down (as long as its resulting products are ultimately absorbed by the body) matter one whit.

downtownlad said...

I see nothing wrong with this. The government has to have taxes, so why not tax that which we want less of. I would think having less obesity is a good thing. Taxing gasoline is a similar thing I could support.

They tax beer and wine. Why not the uproar over the alcohol tax?

Of course, there is an easier way to raise the price of soda. How about we stop SUBSIDIZING corn. That is why soda makers switched from sugar cane to corn syrup. And there is a lot of evidence that it is corn syrup that is making us fat.

Or maybe the government should just tax sugar in general, rather than taxing soda. Or you could tax sugar that makes up over a certain percentage or pre-packaged goods to try and discourage their use.

Most foods have way too much sugar anyway. Does Coke really need 9 grams of sugar? I'd like to know more about the reasoning behind this. I use one teaspoon of sugar in my coffee and it tastes sweet enough. I could understand 3 sugars if you want it really sweet. But 9 teaspoons? Aren't there diminishing returns?

http://www.sugarstacks.com/beverages.htm

MadisonMan said...

What would George Harrison say?

Sofa King said...

The government has to have taxes, so why not tax that which we want less of

One obvious reason that comes to mind is it empowers majorities at the expense of less popular minorities. I would assume you would be against, say, a tax on sodomy, despite your belief that the majority want less of it.

It seems to me your position ought at least be backed by some requirement of the existence of externalities.

downtownlad said...

And I don't buy the argument that people were saying the opposite 20 years ago, therefore how are we supposed to believe what they are saying today.

Are we really supposed to pretend that scientists don't know what they're talking about? There has been a hell of a lot of progress in the study of nutrition over the last 20 years. We used to think that fat was bad for you. Now, we know that there are such things as good fats (monosaturated fats, etc. - which lower cholesterol) and bad fats (trans fats).

Will we learn more? Absolutely. Keep the research coming. And I have no qualms banning things like trans-fats, which only appeared in a modern diet any (last 100 years), can be replaced with no difference in taste and barely a blip in cost, and are very close to poison. Does anyone in New York City really miss their trans fats? is anyone there clamoring to get their trans fats backs? Do McDonalds fries in New York or Dunkin Donuts taste any different?

downtownlad said...

There is a tax on sodomy Sofa King. Gay marriage is banned, and that is an effective tax on gay couples who have to go through all sorts of complex legal arrangements, which are expensive, just to get a fraction of their rights.

Try again.

So your argument is that the government should tax things that we want more of? Or everything should be taxed equally? We should tax a polluter the same as we tax someone who uses environmentally friendly technology? We should tax cigarettes the same as we tax milk? We should tax subways the same as we tax cars? We should tax church bingo the same as we tax gambling?

former law student said...

The original assertion:

High fructose corn syrup is no substitute for real sugar.

Michael questioned this, because fructose is one component of the real sugar molecule:

So, where does one find this supposedly non-fructose containing “real sugar”?

Michael later told us that sucrose remained sucrose until it was broken down in the small intestine. (Although the hydrochloric acid found in the stomach inverts sucrose in the laboratory, for some reason Michael knows but I do not, the same HCl does not invert sucrose in the stomach.)

Thus sucrose remained distinct from fructose from the mouth through the stomach till the small intestine, i.e. during consumption. Only during later metabolism did sucrose become fructose. One might more justly say that starch is sugar, because salivary amylase starts breaking down starch in the mouth.

Thus it makes more sense to say that potatoes are the same as apples than it does to assert that sucrose contains fructose.

dbp said...

DTL Said: "I see nothing wrong with this. The government has to have taxes, so why not tax that which we want less of. I would think having less obesity is a good thing. Taxing gasoline is a similar thing I could support."

One could quibble with this, but I would like to focus on the "why not tax that which we want less of." part. Why isn't it clear and obvious that high taxes on income will produce...less income?

dbp said...

DTL Said: "And I have no qualms banning things like trans-fats, which only appeared in a modern diet any (last 100 years), can be replaced with no difference in taste and barely a blip in cost, and are very close to poison."

This reminds me of a lame organic chemistry joke:

What do you call people who are afraid of trans-fats? Cis-ease.

Michael McNeil said...

Thus it makes more sense to say that potatoes are the same as apples than it does to assert that sucrose contains fructose.

Only if one imagines (or is seeking to dissimulate by much arm-waving) that what happens in the mouth (as opposed to what gets absorbed into the body) is the end-all and be-all of existence. I don't happen to share that affectation.

Sigivald said...

Short but invriably correct heuristic (echoing Palladian):

If CSPI says it, it's complete bullshit and should be ignored not just for scientific reasons, but for reasons of moral integrity.

Jeremy said...

There is a tax on sodomy Sofa King. Gay marriage is banned, and that is an effective tax on gay couples...

But you're against that. Why would you be in favor of that kind of government interference in another sector?

why not tax that which we want less of
Who is this "we" that you speak of?

My other thought is that a lot of conservatives can get on board with the notion of ending corn subsidies. The ends might be the same, but the means make all the difference.

-The Other Jeremy

Sofa King said...

Try again.

Why? It seems you illustrated my point. Aren't those burdens you outlined justified by the fact that "we" want less sodomy?

So your argument is that the government should tax things that we want more of? Or everything should be taxed equally? We should tax a polluter the same as we tax someone who uses environmentally friendly technology? We should tax cigarettes the same as we tax milk? We should tax subways the same as we tax cars? We should tax church bingo the same as we tax gambling?

I think that such taxes ought at least be justified by the showing that the taxed behavior imposes negative externalities roughly equal to the size of the tax. So specially taxing polluters would be justified by the uncompensated costs that polluters impose on others. But what is the externality imposed by my decision to consume sugar or trans-fats or cigarettes?

Steven said...

I'm just trying to figure out how you structure a tax on soda so that the burden only falls on the richest 5% of the population.

Chip Ahoy said...

Wanna hear something stew-pud? Okay.

Once I made marshmallows.

Marshmallows are pure cane sugar and gelatin. They should be heavily taxed.

Michael McNeil said...

Sugar is already heavily taxed — by a tariff that results in retail prices for sugar being perhaps thrice what they would be if one could import it from tropical countries like Brazil which can produce it efficiently. As a result products like Coke are virtually forced to use HFCS. (As this piece points out, a 1/10th of a cent increase in sweetener expense per serving would cost Coca-Cola more than $122 million.)

PatCA said...

This "public interest" watchdog also came out yesterday, blasting with both barrels, against that horrid substance salt.

They're fascists, and they know they have a sympathetic administration.

Vigilance, even in small things, is the price of freedom.

Justin said...

But what is the externality imposed by my decision to consume sugar or trans-fats or cigarettes?It's the increased cost of caring for you when you get diabetes or hyperglycemia or lung cancer - diseases that can, in many cases, be avoided. If you're on Medicare or Medicaid, then taxpayers are spending money that could have been spent elsewhere had you been a better decisionmaker. If you had private insurance, premiums go up for everyone to defray the disproportionate costs you impose on the overall system through your poor decisionmaking. See how that works? If we're going to have some form of national healthcare (and we already do, with Mdicaid and Medicare), doesn't it make sense to penalize behavior like that and funnel the money into health care? Why shouldn't you be required to absorb those costs?

Jason (the commenter) said...

Chip, how did they taste? They look lovely.

former law student said...

blasting with both barrels, against that horrid substance salt.Let me add my own salt to things. I own a salt shaker and I know how to use it.

Pouring myself a glass of delicious (and organic, natch) tomato juice the other day, I was somewhat dismayed to find out that eight ounces contained a third of my day's sodium allotment.

Beth said...

Cane sugar - yum. Cane Syrup - yum. Everyone should have a can of Steen's Cane Syrup on the table for pancakes and waffles.

Cane vinegar - also yum. I use it in bbq marinades.

I like the flavor of diet coke, but I'm willing to adapt back to regular if Coke would return to cane sugar.

Cane is big bidness here in Louisiana -

knox said...

Fat people use up a lot of health care: doctor visits, blood and urine tests, blood pressure and cholesterol pills. All of this raises the cost of health insurance.

Oh your skinny ass off your high horse.

William said...

The Puritans are always with us. It's just that the objects of their puritanism vary. Pornography and gambling are now harmless diversions. Cigarettes and sugar are tools of the devil....I have no objection to letting the feckless and the weak pay for my sense of superiority. Still one must observe that the sanctimonious have caused more wreckage than the carousers. During Prohibition the number of traffic fatalities plummeted. Nonetheless the aggregate number of untimely deaths skyrocketed as a result of organized crime and wood alchohol......One can erect toll booths on the road to hell, but the resourceful find alternate routes, that are, in fact, short cuts.

Steven said...

Justin, that's exactly why we shouldn't have national health care. Socialism gives an economic excuse to moralistic, liberty-destroying laws.

After all, the exact same logic would support putting a tax on heterosexual vaginal intercourse. Pregnancies impose significant costs on the health care system whether they're aborted or brought to term.

Sofa King said...

It's the increased cost of caring for you when you get diabetes or hyperglycemia or lung cancer - diseases that can, in many cases, be avoided. If you're on Medicare or Medicaid, then taxpayers are spending money that could have been spent elsewhere had you been a better decisionmaker.

First: unless you're willing to apply the standard of "avoidability" neutrally, then it's really a bogus excuse. Pregnancy is "avoidable" as well, so ought we regulate the details of peoples' reproduction?

Second: increased premiums are only an externality when insurance companies are not allowed to raise the premiums of those who incur the risks. In a less regulated system, smokers as a group would cover the increased costs of smoking through their premiums.

Third: if groups such as, say, smokers are such a net burden on government-provided health care, why not allow them to "opt out" - pay no taxes into the system, but be eligible for none of the benefits? They might actually be able to then afford an insurance plan that would cover them, or even pay their own way, and government-run system saves money by not having to provide their care.

Conclusion: these externalities you speak of exist only because the government has mandated that they exist. And now you want to use them as justification for further government mandates. That's a rather circular kind of argument.

Steven said...

By the way, it's also a lie.

Fat people and smokers actually, when you do the analysis, save the government money on health care. You see, they die earlier and thus spend less time as 70+-year-old nonproducing consumers of health care resources. And that's before you count the savings to Social Security.

Pogo said...

A Modest Proposal:

1. People are too stupid to decide what they put in their own mouths.

Every bite you make should be pre-approved. A 1-800 number should be called with every chew.

2. Fat people cost money, maybe not more money than thin people altogether, but we don't like fat people so forget taxing them.

Kill them and feed them to the poor.

3. Old people are a waste of time and space, especially when they are no longer productive. They waste too much medical care, especially in the last year of their lives.

Kill them and feed them to the poor.

4. The retarded and the lame?
Ibid.

Pogo said...

Oh hell.
Just kill the poor in shifts, and feed them to ones left.

former law student said...

Pogo, do fat people have the courtesy to die young, in your experience, or do they persistently sop up medical care till they're quite aged?

Brian said...

downtownlad-

"We used to think that fat was bad for you. Now, we know that there are such things as good fats (monosaturated fats, etc. - which lower cholesterol) and bad fats (trans fats)."

That's incorrect as to nutritionists (correct as to the average idiot layman), but the facts are far more damning of "nutritional science".

Previously, it was believed that saturated fats were the great evil; the more unsaturated the fat, the better. Isomers were not considered a major issue, so there wasn't much concern over whether the unsaturated fats were cis- or trans- isomers. This had practical effects; our food supply switched away from saturated animal fats to omega-6 polyunsaturated vegetable oils and, when you needed something that stayed solid at room temperature, trans-fats.

The current state of the art in lipid nutrition is almost the reverse of that. The Mediterranean diet folks will tell you that omega-6s and trans-fats are the great evils; long chain saturated fats aren't that bad, and the best fats are monounsaturated omega-9 (i.e., olive oil) and omega-3s (found commonly in green vegetables, flax, and fish).

This isn't the "approaching the right result" sort of situation, where we refined a broadly correct doctrine; what nutritionists were telling us 25 years ago simply contradicts what nutritionists tell us today. Given that the quality of evidence hasn't changed much between the two conclusions, I don't see much reason to credit them with real scientific findings.

Arturius said...

People are too stupid to decide what they put in their own mouths.

Well to a certain extent this is quite true considering the other things that people willingly put into their bodies while being fully cognizant of their ill effects. If we lived in a true libertarian society in which we all dealt with our own individual consequences I would agree that the government has no business taxing products for the purposes of social engineering but unfortunately we don’t. I think the collapse of the housing market demonstrated quite well that a good chunk of the populace has almost no grasp of basic finance and here we are all paying a big price for their ignorance. The same goes for our health care system which is burdened to a large extent by a populace that is probably as unfit as anywhere else in the world. When I was a child, there was always the one ‘husky’ kid in class and the very thought of cancelling the hot lunch program was met with cries of starving children. Now 30 years later you have 2-3 candidates for bariatric surgery before they hit their freshman year and yes, we all pay for their choices in the form of taxes and increased insurance premiums. All because quite a few people are too stupid to stop eating after they finished off their first large Papa John’s with all the fixings.
Ideally if we could levy a ‘stupid tax’ we could probably pay off the national debt in 4 years.

Pogo said...

Data show fat young people die off earlier.

But if you live past 50, fat is actually protective for longevity (not morbidly obese, though).

Pogo said...

Yes, Arturius.

People are also too stupid to decide what to watch and read.

They should appoint me their keeper.

MadisonMan said...

When I was in high school, I went through a candy making phase, and did marshmallows for a while. They were superior to Divinity (ugh) but far inferior to (yum) fudge.

In all cases, I used pure cane sugar, refined. And corn syrup (but not HFCS).

Arturius said...

People are also too stupid to decide what to watch and read.

They should appoint me their keeper.
.

I tend to lean toward the philosopher-king form of government myself :-)

Again, I'm not advocating state intervention in my life but you must admit, the populace has demonstrated that they can't make sound choices without negatively affecting those of us who tend to follow the path of common sense. If I'm going to be forced to pay for the poor life decisions made by my fellow man (or woman) then I expect the government to start mitigating that cost to me by transferring some of it to those who engage in such behavior.

Example: I have no problems with massive taxes on those who insist on inhaling toxic chemicals into their body thereby increasing health care costs across the board.

madawaskan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
madawaskan said...

You could just drink-

The Kool Aid[You just need some aide in choosing...]

madawaskan said...

Chris-

I thought that was diet soda...

Pogo said...

"...you must admit, the populace has demonstrated that they can't make sound choices without negatively affecting those of us who tend to follow the path of common sense."The history of government is the search to live off of other people's work.

So here.

TitusHasMoved said...

Since reading Eat This Not That, The Grocery Store Addition, I have almost done away with all soda consumption.

I don't drink coffee. Just don't like the taste.

I used to drink 2-3 cans of diet coke a day and I am down to 1 tiny little can-the new 8 oz cans, they are so cute too.

I have lost almost 9 pounds in the past month.

Try something different.

Do it for your waistline.

Do it for the upcoming beach season.

Just do it.

Thank you so much and have a super special day with balloons and magic markers.

Jason (the commenter) said...

I don't envy Obama. He was elected to enact all sorts of new programs, but no one will let him raise the money to do it.

TitusHasMoved said...

Also, as a recommendation try the organic non fat chocolate milks. They are delish and full of really good things for your body.

I was just spooning a rare clumber and got a woody.

TitusHasMoved said...

The worst soda is Sunkist Orange. Drinking a 12 ounce can is equivalent to eating 17 chewy chips ahoy cookies. You would need to ride your bike 7 miles to get rid of this crap.

Arizona Kiwi Stawberry is like eating 7 bowls of fruit loops. You would need to run 13 laps to get rid of that drink.

Courtesy of Eat This Not That.

Now let's stretch, and work it out, and reach for the sky, and over and back, and down and up, you are very special.
Thanks so much.

I really care so much about all of God's children and animals.

former law student said...

Titus, are there any low sugar beverages?

When I make lemonade I don't even use a tablespoon of sugar in 12 ounces.

TitusHasMoved said...

A bottle of snapple lemon iced tea is equivalent to eating 6 fugsicle bars.

You would need to pull the weeds in your garden for 55 minutes to get rid of this junk.

Now let's make it happen.

And back and forth and down and up and side and side and reach and exhale and bring it back home, YOU ARE GREAT! Now let's take it to the floor and chest to the knees and spread those legs and bring the head down and shoulders and neck and all the way down to the floor. Sing With Me- We are All American Girls and We Love the Life that We Lead.

Let's go.

TitusHasMoved said...

Of course there is Former Law Student. Let's focus on Eat This now: Pom Pomengrate Lynchee Green Tea, Izee Sparkling Clementine, Simply Grapefruit Juice, R.W. Knudsen Just Cranberry,Motts Apple Juice.

But don't forget about NOT THAT: Sunny D, Oceanspray Cran-Grape, Dole Pineapple Juice, Starbucks Frappucino.

And be careful about the Smoothies and Shakes you can find in the stores. There are good ones and bad ones. And read the labels!

These little steps you take in the grocery store can make all the difference in the world.

Now let's work.

No Odwalla either.

Now are you ready? Are you with me? Are you excited? Let's go.

Shanna said...

The truth is, obesity is at the core of our health problems and health costs, in this country. To discourage it's use (sugared and diet) with a bit of a tax has a lot of up-side to it..

Well, if HFCS is really worse than sugar, the actual problem is that not only was it’s use not discouraged, it was encouraged by government action, ie, subsidizing corn farmers. So thanks, Govt! And, we were given a boatload of wrong information in the 70’s about what was healthy and what was not. So again, thanks. So, why would anybody think the government can fix it? They will just be wrong, again, about everything and create more problems. Let us go back to what we used to eat and many of our problems would go away.

(I do think soda is terrible for you and have pretty much stopped drinking it)

Jen said...

Just don't f*&k with Splenda. Splenda is keeping me in size 6 skinny jeans. I don't care if it causes cancer.

Cancer schmancer. I want to be on the hot girls with douchebags site Beth was talking about on the wedding photo thread.

That and Rioja. If there's an imposed limit on rioja or petite sirah I'm leaving the country.

TitusHasMoved said...

Part of our obesity problem is the supersize mentality.

Huge drinks are never good for anyone unless it is water.

We aren't horses. We don't need to drink a gallon of soda or pop as they say in Wisconsin.

I never used to give a shit about what I ate but I started researching on how and where the shit is made. It turned me off big time. I think people should know where their food comes from and and how it is made. But I think it should it be their own responsiblity.

madawaskan said...

Chris-

Never mind I think it had more to do with the aluminum in the cans and the acid in the soda leeching that out and the ions....yada, yada..can't remember!

madawaskan said...

Titus-

The ultimate-you take your FAGE yogurt and some blueberries and make a smoothie in the blender.

TitusHasMoved said...

OMG Mada I have Fage Yogurt and blueberries for breaky today.

By the way Fage Yogurt is the best yogurt out there.

How funny. Hugs.

Now lets bring it home and cool down.

madawaskan said...

No Odwalla seriously? What about-and this is my newest addiction-I trying to kick my Cole fetish-only thing I go into withdrawal over-seriously-

Anyways-what about-

Hansen's Mandarin Lime Cane Soda?

madawaskan said...

YA FAGE is the bomb titus-but don't do that workout 900max I was talking about over at Troop's-it'll kill your back.

The one Kutcher is pimpin'.

He made Demi do it-next week she was posting pics of herself getting acu puncture on her lower back.

They made no connection between that turbo workout and the back pain...gad!

madawaskan said...

I'm off to do Pilates...much better.

TitusHasMoved said...

I can't remember every product Madawaskan. Read the book! Tell em Titus sent ya!

I have done away with one of my favorite meals after reading the book. Tombstone Pizzas-yum. They are very Wisconsin and very very bad for you. But my abs are loving me and in two weeks I will be on the beach in Ptown whipping off my shirt with confidence and frolicking with the rare clumbers.

It's a win win situation.

Thanks so much.

Let's work it.

former law student said...

I will look for the Clementine stuff.

The Strictly Cranberry is strictly tart, but my wife loves it. And Mott's Apple Juice is a standby.

Our go-to yogurt is Trader Joe's French, which is whole milk with the cream on the top.

TitusHasMoved said...

I feel like I have really made an impact here today.

I can feel the energy in the house.

I am really glad to be to service to all.

Don't forget to smile today.

Big smiles. Freak people out. It will make you laugh and if you can laugh the entire world is laughing too. Haaa haaa haahahahahaah.

Let's all laugh.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Let us go back to what we used to eat and many of our problems would go away

Right. If it has to be "manufactured" and is made with industrial chemicals, don't eat it. (with the exception of hydrogenated Crisco for fried chicken /wink)

Butter not margarine

Olive oil

Make your own cookies instead of buying Oreos

Bake your own cakes, breads

No prepackaged meals, quick mixes, hamburger helper etc. Too much salt and preservatives

Iced tea instead of sodas or just plain old good water

Nothing wrong with a little single malt scotch either.

But like Titus said. It should be your own choice what you eat.

AJ Lynch said...

Titus mentioned we should not drink supersized drinks.

That reminds me there is a diet book somewhere and i heard the first chapter tells you to go to a fast food restaurant and sit in the parking lot and just obersve the people leaving the restaurant.

The author said the fattest people tend to be carrying the biggest takeout bags along with a 36 oz. soda.

I think it would be funny to tax fat people more.

Shanna said...

Iced tea instead of sodas or just plain old good water.

Iced tea, unsweet, and water with lemon are all you really need to drink. Occasionally milk. Coffee.

Shanna said...

Oh and WINE of course.

Palladian said...

"Huge drinks are never good for anyone unless it is water."

We don't need huge amounts of water either.

I replaced Diet Coke with Perrier.

TitusHasMoved said...

I agree with DBQ. Hugs.

People should educate themselves on the shit they put in their body. They probably would not get as sick.

It's not hard to find good food and good food doesn't need to be expensive or purchased only at Whole Foods.

Lots of the labeling on food is bullshit.

I never thought I would like the taste of more healthy food but I have actually started to enjoy eating more than ever. I sound like a fucking weight loss commercial.


One thing I can't do away with though is my vodka tonics...sorry.

TitusHasMoved said...

I agree Palladian we don't need huge amounts of water. I drink a couple of bottles a day. I drink one every morning when I wake up. I drink Perrier too. Hugs, we have something common. I knew we were destined for something special.

Palladian said...

"Iced tea, unsweet, and water with lemon are all you really need to drink. Occasionally milk. Coffee."

My list is a little different:

Hot tea, coffee, sparkling mineral water, tap water, and real-sugar Coke at Passover.

Oh and gin. Lots and lots of gin. Preferably Plymouth or Boodle's. And Dolin vermouth. And single malt Scotch, particularly Islay.

Oh and Bordeaux. And Riesling. And a bunch of Napa Valley reds. Ok, really all wines.

Chartreuse! Can't forget that. And cognac, Martel Cordon Bleu or something from the Borderies. And Chimay, delicious Chimay.

And I need Cointreau occasionally. And Campari. Both are great for dessert recipes as well.

Ok, why don't I just revise my list:

Hot tea, coffee, sparkling mineral water, tap water, and real-sugar Coke at Passover, and all booze, wine, beer and other assorted hooch ever made anywhere.

madawaskan said...

Ya I've tried San Pelligrino-with just a splash of OJ....

Ga! Still have a thing for Coke and it has to be Coke maybe I should try titrating down.

Which reminds me my Dad grew up during the Depression, in East Pittsburgh-back then Coke actually had cocaine in it or some derivative-he swears to this and he and his gang of kids use to pick a three mile radius for scrap metal just to get their Coke fix.

They even started pulling up...railroad ties or some such thing.

Titus-

I worked in a frozen pizza plant at about 17.

Ummm.....never ate frozen pizza again....I don't want to gross you out with the multitude of stories I got about that.

Just.don't.do.it.

madawaskan said...

Oh and I've seen this brand sold on the East Coast...I'm just sayin'.

Sofa King said...

People should educate themselves on the shit they put in their body. They probably would not get as sick.


Have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water, or rain water, and only pure grain alcohol?

Cedarford said...

Palladian said...
And this is how totalitarianism begins, by the way. The State usurps some basic industry like health care then claims that it has the right to regulate your lifestyle "because of the enormous cost of bad lifestyle choices to State-run health care".
.



Yeah, right....Just as FDR bringing electricity to rural America, creating the TVA, was the "road to totalitarianism". One just has to look at how universal health care in managed in other countries to dismiss Palladian as engaging in hysterical hyperbole.

*************
But Henhouse, taking the contrary view, also gets it wrong:
- And that sums up a lot of the non-thought on this board...expect the worst and plan that all parties involved will behave badly. Such low expectations you have.

the point of the article is sound. aside from the gazillion plastic bottles and tin cans sugared drinks do very little for anyone except help people get fat faster, destroy teeth and eat up stomach linings.
Speaking of non-thought...

1. Eliminating a gazillion plastic bottles and tin cans of sugared product just means a gazillion other plastic bottles & cans of non-sugared stuff substitutes.

2. Sugar is fattening? My gosh! So are bread, rice, fruit, pasta, frenchfries, hamburgers...cereals, pancakes, eggs..Basically any other food or calorie containing product eaten to excess. And no, "more nutitious" things like blueberries, carrots, the little boxes of vitamin-containing apple juice the ghetto fatties suck down boxes and boxes of - don't lose their inherent caloric content simply by being "more nutritious".

3. Soft drinks eat up stomach linings? Sugar does? Stupid...

4. Is a diet of taffy potentially more harmful than lettuce? Well, duh...But with all our incredible problems, it perhaps is better to remind people to brush their teeth and floss than set up a Ministry of Taffy Regulation and a Ministry of Lettuce Promotion...

Palladian said...

"Yeah, right....Just as FDR bringing electricity to rural America, creating the TVA, was the "road to totalitarianism". One just has to look at how universal health care in managed in other countries to dismiss Palladian as engaging in hysterical hyperbole."

I love taking lessons in totalitarianism from the Kleine Goebbels of the Althouse comment section. I bet you could do up a nice centrally planned State, eh Mein Herr?

Palladian said...

Arbeit macht frei! Jedem das Seine! Ja! Ja!

Jen said...

Come on. . . Godwin's Rule.

Has this discussion gone on long enough?

Paul Zrimsek said...

In the late-evening table-talk seesions at Berchtesgaden they used to have a rule that the first person to mention Cedarford automatically lost the argument.

madawaskan said...

Jen-

You're new here...
I see you've made friends with Jeremy and now you want to defend Cedarford...

Too funny.

Jen said...

I was being critical of Palladian and his Nazi comment.

I don't know who Cedarford is. That reference came after my post.

joewxman said...

The problem isn't sugar, the problem is fat people. We need to tax fat people. Not only do they use more than their share of health care, they take up too much space in general. They're also unsightly and block our view of the attractive thin people behind them. They should pay for the many costs they impose on society"

Actually the problem is thin people especially those in the fashion industry who have set a standard of leaness that makes us feel bad about ourselves. I suggest a self esteem tax!

Jen said...

madawaskan:

Are you marking your territory?

Because if you could find a way to pee on this blog I'm sure it would keep other commentators away.

madawaskan said...

Have fun with Jeremy and C-4...


gad...

TitusHasMoved said...

I am actually interested in what people eat and drink. I find is fascinating.

More food and liquid posts please.

I have never been a tea person. I really haven't tried it. Maybe that will be my next adventure.

I do love Vodka though. I drink between 5-8 glasses of vodka tonics a week.

I hate drugs though. I was never into drugs. I tried almost everything once and hated most of it. I liked pot for awhile but then I started getting paranoid when smoking it. Coke is gross. X made me sick. I never did crystal thank God or Special K or any harder drugs. I did do mushrooms a couple of times in college though and had a blast.

I am judgmental about people who do drugs though. If I meet anyone anywhere that is high on something I am grossed out, no matter if they are hot or not.

I grew up in Wisconsin where everyone around me drank Mountain Dew. When I was drinking it on the East Coast people were like WTF? Go to any quick mart in Wisconsin and the largest amount of soda is always rows and rows of Mountain Dew.

Also, I did not have a variety of foods when growing up. Pasta meant spaghetti from Pizza Hut. Mexican was ChiChis. And Seafood was Supper Clubs where all the fish was deep fried and all you can eat with french fries and fried fritters and a "salad bar, all you can eat".

When my parents come out here to eat they only eat spaghetti at italian restaurants because they don't know what any of the other meals are. Also, they have french and thousand island dressings on their salads. Good luck trying to find that anywhere out here. Oh and a brandy alexander natch.

I am not embarassed about that at all that is not my point. But when taking them out to eat here it needs to be very basic. If it is seafood it needs to be deep fried shrimp.

Palladian said...

"I was being critical of Palladian and his Nazi comment.

I don't know who Cedarford is. That reference came after my post."

Jen, Cedarford is a regular here. While he is sometimes coherent and even agreeable, he also frequently veers into paragraphs-long explications of the nefarious and widespread influence of International Jewry on the affairs and culture of the United States. He's a quintessential isolationist Jew-hating paleocon, hence my Nazi references. His ability to ascribe a wide spectrum of world problems to Jews makes him fair game for Nazi taunts in my book.

And Godwin's Law does not state that an internet discussion is ended by a reference to Nazis; it merely posits that:

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

One has to be able to compare Jew haters to Nazis, Jen!

Jason (the commenter) said...

Jen : I was being critical of Palladian and his Nazi comment.

Great, now Palladian is going all Joan Rivers on us. Too soon! Too soon!

madawaskan said...

Jason-

Have you ever confronted C-4 or have you sat idly by?

And somehow you think that is better?

Jason (the commenter) said...

madawaskan, my grandma had brothers in the SS and told everyone she "sold tickets on the train" during the war.

Don't know if that's true, but I'm sure she would have thrown ME on it. And after River's looseness with the concept I'm not exactly appreciative of the stretched analogy.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

One thing I can't do away with though is my vodka tonics...sorry.

Tonic water is good for you /wink. Especially if you are in malarial areas.

I make green tea for iced tea and while it is still warm, stir in a few tablespoons of ginger syrup I have left over from when I make candied ginger. Delicious.

My family has always been into good home cooking and gourmet cooking. Growing up in California the foods that I took for granted until I met my first husband who was from Ohio where evidently all they eat is Spam, mayonnaise and potatoes. Most of the food that I cooked he had never eaten or attempted to eat

Artichokes with garlic butter, avocados, Chile Rellenos made with real poblano chilies, mangos, kiwis, plantains, fresh dungeness crab (yummmmm) with garlic butter natch, fresh oysters. And really strange. Savory rice with mushroom gravy or rice pilaf. The only way they ever ate rice was as a sweet breakfast cereal or rice pudding.

AJ Lynch said...

This just came to me. Are these this two of the most common fibs people tell:

"I rarely drink soda .....and I pretty much only watch The History Channel or The Discovery Channel".

Jen said...

Palladian:

I agree. I was just surprised to see it actually happen.

Jason (the commenter) said...

My beverage choices are not very refined.

It's tap water for me and generic soda.

If I drink tea, it's the kind that tastes like dirt; with cream and honey mixed in. ("It tastes like dirt because it's made from dirt!")

And my coffee has chicory in it and comes out of a can. I'll make it in a cheapo metal filter and drip it into condensed milk. With ice is best!

Sometimes I'll make lemonade or squeeze some fruit.

And anything with alcohol ends up being used in food.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

And my coffee has chicory in it and comes out of a can.

OMG!!! Never buy coffee from a can. I quit doing that when I read an article, years ago, about the amount of foreign matter that is allowed to be in the ground coffee. Rotten beans, dead wasps, rocks, sticks, animal droppings.

I always grind my own beans.

Palladian said...

"I always grind my own beans."

Me too. And the addition of chicory is a hateful but I suppose tolerable regional tradition.

Jason (the commenter) said...

Rotten beans, dead wasps, rocks, sticks, animal droppings.

LOL, but those add body!

Jason (the commenter) said...

And the addition of chicory is a hateful but I suppose tolerable regional tradition.

Yes, but how else do you cover the flavor of dead wasps and animal droppings?

Palladian said...

"Yes, but how else do you cover the flavor of dead wasps and animal droppings?"

Cream & sugar!

Dust Bunny Queen said...

LOL, but those add body!

Um...yeah. And if you let your kids eat dirt and french kiss the dog they won't have as many diseases. HOWEVER, being beyond the dirt and dog stage....I'll just continue to grind my coffee beans.

TVM

madawaskan said...

Well I hate that Godwin's law crap-what self appointed thugs decided to roam the internets with that one?

My Dad during WW II with the "Bloody Buckets" I think they liberated one of the concentration camps-I say I think he starts to talk about it and then grabs a martini....

Ugh-a lot of his war memories I think they involve the smell of things...

Anyways enough about that!

I swear I've tried a lot of coffee beans Cain's coffee from Oklahoma and Eight O'Clock-real cheap but good.

Jen said...

There is no more Grey Goose in my house.

Which is heavily taxed, btw.

I say, tax soda. Free up the booze.

There is an organic coffee roaster directly across the street from me. They have the most spectacular coffee I have ever had.

former law student said...

If you're talking Cafe Du Monde, you have to use the can up right away before the chicory makes it taste nasty. I don't know if freezing it would help. Vietnamese folks love it though; they even make a knock-off brand.

former law student said...

Titus, at Trader Joe today I found Fage yogurt. So I bought one based on your recommendation. They also had a housebrand pomegranate and green tea drink; I bought one to try. I will keep my eyes open for the Pom version, as well as the other drinks.

Jason (the commenter) said...

former law student, that's my brand! And I even have the filter the Vietnamese use. It's easy and always works.

They make the best food too.

Joan said...

DBQ, we have to get together and cook, sometime. Your menu sounds about perfect to me.

Ann said something about sugar being sugar, and it all being "empty calories." The problem with empty calories is that they're not "empty", they actually consume micronutrients in the processes of digestion and metabolism, micronutrients that are therefore unavailable to process more, um, nutritious foods. So sugars in excess can have a more negative impact than just helping you pack on the pounds, they can lead to deficiencies in other necessary substances (calcium being one) because of how they are metabolized.

In the late-evening table-talk seesions at Berchtesgaden they used to have a rule that the first person to mention Cedarford automatically lost the argument.

Paul Z wins the thread!

Crimso said...

Sorry I've been away all day, as the biochemical discussions are in my area of expertise (I thought my ketone bodies crack was pretty damned funny, but I guess no one got it). I'd like to point out that sucrose, glucose, and fructose all are glucose and fructose when they actually enter your body (your digestive system is not "inside" your body). They may taste differently, and they may have different effects on satiety (or maybe not), but once they get into your intestinal cells, sucrose is no longer sucrose; it's glucose and fructose. The issue with fructose (and it's higher levels in HFCS) probably has to do with the fact that in the liver, fructose is utilized more rapidly than glucose. It feeds into the pathway whereby glucose is broken down (glycolysis), but it takes a shortcut and bypasses the major regulatory step of the glycolytic pathway. Since no metabolic pathways operate in isolation (and they are coordinately regulated in elegant, efficient, and amazing ways), this skirting of an important regulatory step in glucose metabolism could result in fructose causing essentially ill-controlled effects on other major metabolic pathways, most notably lipid metabolism. In other words, when glycolysis appears to be running too quickly and is told to slow down, fructose (to an extent) ignores those speed limit signs. So there is at least some reason to believe that there is an amount of fructose in your diet beyond which metabolic problems may result.

I know this has nothing to do with the law, American Idol, pinching loaves, or napping pooches, so I'll shut up now. It's rare that I can actually make a comment wherein I know what I'm talking about.

Beth said...

I know I've said this before, but Cafe du Monde was my first job, at 16, in 1976. They'd just begun hiring females, with the exception of WWII, of course. I began drinking coffee at the same time, and I've never been able to tolerate lousy coffee, not after being weaned on hot, fresh chicory coffee, with fresh, steaming milk.

Palladian said...

"I know I've said this before, but Cafe du Monde was my first job, at 16, in 1976."

!!!

I wasn't yet drinking coffee in 1976. I was 1 year old.

Ralph said...

I imagined Beth as some young squirt, but she's older than me. I was 15 for most of 1976. Played Pooh Sticks on DC's Memorial Bridge on the Bicentennial, which Palladian doesn't even remember!

Joan said...

Crimso: hey, I got the ketone bodies thing! I just couldn't think of a decent reply. Thanks for posting on the metabolic pathways issues -- many people think that metabolism is an immutable set of processes, when the reality is much the opposite.

Wow, Beth's three years older than me, and Palladian's 12 years younger. I wouldn't have guessed.

As for chicory coffee, as much as I love New Orleans and all its cuisine, the coffee at Cafe du Monde is the one thing I've never tried -- the times I was there, they didn't serve decaf. I haven't intentionally drunk caffeinated coffee since 1984. I imagine that chicory coffee is really heavenly with beignets...