August 16, 2008

Some reactions to the Saddleback Forum.

My live-blog post on the Saddleback Forum has almost 200 comments, and after 200 comments, they get a little hard to read. (You have to click on "post a comment," then scroll to the bottom and click "newer.") So let me start a new post.

For substance, I'll point to Andrew Sullivan's live-blogging at the end of the McCain part:
9.57 pm. McCain's evolution into a candidate who knows how to stroke the Christianist base is somewhat impressive. It was a little canned at times, but it will work with evangelicals. All in all, this struck me as pretty much a draw....
And here's a segment of the Obama part:
8.42 pm. ... So far, this is a masterful performance. Having watched nothing but ads and soundbites and speeches for the past few weeks, I'd forgotten a little bit what a class act he can be.

8.34 pm. What a great moment in the history of race relations that a black presidential candidate can say that he would not have nominated Clarence Thomas - because he wasn't qualified enough!
Here's what Glenn Reynolds said about that:
OBAMA JUST SAID CLARENCE THOMAS DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH EXPERIENCE TO SERVE ON THE COURT: Kinda ironic, huh?
Allahpundit notes that he didn't complete the word "experience" and has the video:



So Obama had the wit to perceive the irony and squelch it.

It seems that disrespecting Clarence Thomas is going to be getting a lot of attention.

Let's check out FireDogLake:
... So far, Obama's won the night.

And let me add -- I fucking hate Rick Warren....

Most annoying to me, McSame refused to define what rich is and what middle class is. Warren asked this for a reason, and McSame weaseled it. Obama, who gave a very direct answer, looked like the straight-talker.

Obama wins the night, by a big margin.
Strange emotional venting. Seems to me that they both fudged the meaning of rich, and that the definition is not such a big deal.

ADDED: In fairness to FireDogLake, I think the line "I fucking hate Rick Warren" is probably meant as a wisecrack in response to his repeated calls for civility and as such, I find it amusing. If it's the usual random spew, then it's not funny.

MORE: Power Line reads the transcripts and likens Obama to Jimmy Carter.

135 comments:

Pal2Pal said...

McCain knocked it out of the park, Obama put everyone to sleep. He was awful. Did he really call Clarence Thomas dumb? Did he really say, "above my paygrade" in regard to abortion?

Best comment over at Patterico's:

"The Dems sent a boy to do a man’s job."

Rick H. said...

"Seems to me that they both fudged the meaning of rich, and that the definition is not such a big deal."

It's a big deal to someone like me who arguably fits within Obama's apparent definition of rich, lives in a very expensive area where even with that income one cannot afford to buy a normal-sized house, and who -- through the lack of any inherited wealth or the lack of a fortunate book deal -- is a layoff or economic downturn away from going from "rich" to "poor."

Peter Blogdanovich said...

Obama came off as way way way smarter than I thought he was. But McCain still beat him.

Seven Machos said...

Is the loony left always crazy-eyed and angry, or is that just when they lose? I do not ask this question rhetorically.

Also, what's going on at the right-leaning hothouses?

Seven Machos said...

Obama is brilliant. There should be no question about that.

Many, many people on the left are brilliant and always have been. Strangely, thought, look at the societies they tend to wrought.

Seven Machos said...

P.S.: I feel that I may have used the word "wrought" incorrectly. Sorry.

vnjagvet said...

What is the demographic that will determine the November election?

If it is left of center, then from the reaction on the selection of blogs I have seen, BHO won the day.

If it is middle or right of center, then McCain had a pretty good edge.

Don't take my word for it. Check the middle of the road blogs for your answer.

Chip Ahoy said...

Once a partisan, always a partisan. It's a special kind of retardation. <---92% of fact.

PatCA said...

Speaking of Warren's "cone of silence," I must have missed Obama's reference to his church.

And XWL was right, it's not that Obama doesn't have any values, it's just that he doesn't have any values that he wants the general electorate to know about.

Chip Ahoy said...

Here, let me put on these goggles that fit inside these blinders and adjust the vertical levelers to allow only slits, and then look straight ahead through this tube while carefully reading one of two columns and dismissing the second. <--- my characterization of partisanship.

Chip Ahoy said...

Demographic schmemographic. Young people make a BFD out of producing videos for a candidate then can't be bothered to actually vote because a party came up and they needed a ride.

ron st.amant said...

They both did well.

Obama seemed more thoughtful than McCain in his answers, but that is largely their personality- McCain is blunt so his answers were more blunt.

McCain's personal stories with his POW experience and the adoption of his child were perfectly suited for those points and the forum.

McCain is still struggling with finding the right distance from Bush, but he did well I think tonight on this by specifically mentioning torture.

Obama showed how easy he is discussing faith and values, much better than most Democrats. That might help to put some moderate Christians at ease with him.

McCain needed to make a more forceful pro-life statement, not just because of the audience, but because of the trial balloon he floated with Tom Ridge which apparently did not go over well with a lot of Right-wing evangelicals.

In the end I don't think either man moved the needle from where they were before.

Reading some of the comments I find it amazing that so many of the Obama haters seemed to totally have missed the message that Warren was trying to articulate: civility in political discourse.

Palladian said...

I appreciate the usefulness of the word "fuck" but why do left wing weblogs feel they have to write that way all the time? Do they think it makes them seem more "real"? Is it a way to SUBVERT THE DOMINATE PARADIGM and STICK IT TO THE "MAN"? Is it supposed to evince a sense of their GREAT ANGER over the INJUSTICE in the world? Or is it simply evidence of an overly emotional, intellectually underdeveloped person.

Ok, I already know the answer. My question was a purely rhetorical device. A fucking rhetorical device.

See, there, I'm "keepin' it real".

Seven Machos said...

Right. Civility in discourse. Obamers are class acts when it comes to that. It's all over the Internets.

Chip Ahoy said...

Obama would make a good Taoist. He's good at finding the middle path.

Seven Machos said...

No, no, Palladian. You have it wrong. It's we the Obama haters who fucking have it wrong. It's we who need civility in discourse.

Palladian said...

"Reading some of the comments I find it amazing that so many of the Obama haters seemed to totally have missed the message that Warren was trying to articulate: civility in political discourse."

Really, you only noticed that from the "Obama Haters"? What part of "I fucking hate Rick Warren" don't you understand?

I hate all this fucking "civility" bullshit (See, I'm keepin' it real!) Obama is wrong about almost everything about which he isn't vague. McCain is wrong about some things but is almost never vague. McCain wins.

Beth said...

Palladian, I can speak only for myself, but I've had a gutter mouth ever since I spent eight years in the restaurant business, mostly in the kitchen. I acquired a rich vocabulary and I figure why waste all that effort?

Randy said...

Chip: RE: partisans. LOL! So true. We shall have ample proof of that shortly. That's what makes the world go 'round, it seems.

Ron: I'm not. It has been building up for some time. We haven't heard the worst of it, yet. It is an endless game of "tit for tat" played by hyper-partisans of both sides.

Palladian said...

"I can speak only for myself, but I've had a gutter mouth ever since I spent eight years in the restaurant business, mostly in the kitchen. I acquired a rich vocabulary and I figure why waste all that effort?"

I picked up my fucking foul mouth from my mother, from my stint at Yale and from teaching college students. That's a profession bound to turn the meekest among us into a fucking foul mouthed fuck.

Chip Ahoy said...

Pardon me, that was insufficiently clever or vile. That's obamassiahtroid is would make a fucking good Taoist.

Jim Hu said...

In McCain's three choices for sources of wisdom I was struck by his inclusion of John Lewis (D-Georgia). Lewis switched from Clinton to Obama in the D primary. McCain was reinforcing the meme that he reaches across the aisle while Obama just pretends to.

It will be interesting to see what Lewis says about this!

mschaff said...

"strangely, thought, look at the societies they tend to wrought."


I couldn't stop laughing. Post of the night.

Beth said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Beth said...

Ah, civility in discourse. Probably would include not calling your wife a cunt in front of reporters. It's smarter to leave it to the filthy mouthed left-wing bloggers to do that.

Palladian said...

Fuck Lao Tzu!

Chip Ahoy said...

My mum would cast a frown whenever I said fuck, but dear ol' dad picked it up (from me) as eminently useful when employed sparingly.

Beth said...

Palladian,

Gesundheit!

Methadras said...

Little Miss Sully had to get the word Christianist in there somehow.

Palladian said...

I'm sure Michelle called Barack a cunt after that rather weak showing.

Chip Ahoy said...

Wrought means create, right?

Palladian said...

Andrew Sullivan is a fucking douche-bag.

Palladian said...

I fucking love you Beth.

Beth said...

That's a profession bound to turn the meekest among us into a fucking foul mouthed fuck.

I always begin the sophomore poetry survey course with Philip Larkin's "This Be the Verse" just to get it out of the way. It's poetry; we're going to encounter some naughty words and rude sentiments.

Chip Ahoy said...

I call my male acquaintances cunts as a much harsher form of pussy, but my once my housekeeper gasped when I said it so I try to really watch that one. My Spanish friends taught me to swear gloriously. It involves traducing the entire family in lengthy strings.

Seven Machos said...

I don't know about any of you, but I feel totally fucking liberated right now. I have had to restrain my aversion to these two fucking candidates for a long time at this site. Fuck that now, though. Now that I am known for a lack of civility in political discourse.

Palladian said...

This swearing is fucking amazing! I'm already starting to think positively about fucking social justice, treason and carbon fucking footprints. Thank you Jane Hamsher! You fucking cunt!

Beth said...

Palladian, fuckin' A. Me too.

Chip Ahoy said...

Andrew Sullivan under a different name.

Palladian said...

In fact, I now think I fucking love Noam Chomsky and think that "Natural Born Killers" was a really fucking great and important film. My fucking taxes really aren't high enough! Where's my fucking credit card, I'm subscribing to both the Utne Reader and The Nation!

Seven Machos said...

Smegma!

Palladian said...

*cough*

Ok. I'm starting to think that maybe saying "fuck" isn't so liberating after all. It's just a way of saying nothing, forcefully.

No wonder "progressives" are so fond of it. Saying nothing, forcefully and repeatedly, does rather sum up "progressivism".

Palladian said...

Ok, I'm putting my Adam Smith poster back up.

XWL said...

For those scoring at home, here's my unofficial scorecard (as compiled from my own liveblog):

Q1)3 wisest. Point to McCain, he was specific, chose people he actually met, and picked wisely (a soldier, a civil rights pioneer and an entrepreneur)

Q2) Moral failure, personal and national. Point to McCain, fessing up to his failed marriage is a plus.

Q3) Gone against party. Point to McCain, but unfair question McCain is barely in the GOP, so that was too easy for him to answer.

Q4) Mind changed. Point to McCain, the drilling answer was pretty brilliant in the way he presented it, and played well with the crowd.

Q5) Gutwrenching decision. Point to McCain, again totally unfair, I mean, how can Obama compete with, 'I had to decide not to accept an end to turtuous incarceration by sadistic Vietcong'?

Q6) Chrisianity. Point to McCain (but barely), he edges out Obama, cause his anecdote is a powerful one (even if he's told it before).

Q7) Abortion. Push, neither won this point, both are extreme on this issue, though Obama did a better job of trying to sound moderate.

Q8) Marriage. Push, they really did say much different from each other.

Q9) Stem Cell Research. Push, again, once again, not a lot of differentiation.

Q10) Evil. Point to McCain, even though he trotted out the Gates of Hell again.

Q11) Supreme Court. Push, Obama was worse, but they both answered very politically, which hopefully worries most people.

Q12) Faith-based and federal funding. Advantage Obama, Obama's right, if you accept federal money, you accept federal non-discrimination guidelines, end of story.

Q13) Schools. Point to McCain, massively, and hugely, competition and choice are popular with voters, just not the unions.

Q14) Define rich. Point to McCain. We are a country that strives for success, believes in opportunity, and identifying the real problem as spending and not taxation was a smart move (one that Obama failed to do)

Q15) What's worth dying for? Point to McCain, not cause his answer was better, but mainly cause of personal history, it's easier to believe his answer considering he's had his life on the line before.

Q16) Religious persecution. Point to McCain, smart to throw in the Reagan worship in his answer, Obama was too nuanced by trying to show the difficult path we have with countries like China.

Q17) Orphans/Adoption. Point to McCain, another unfair question based on comparative life stories. How can you beat, 'Cindy came home with a beautiful girl given to her by Mother Teresa'?

Q18) Why should you be president? Push, both answered well in their own ways, McCain was a good answer, but a bit canned, Obama's answer came across with a bit more charisma and glamor.

Q19) Was it right to hold this forum here? Push, both gave the same basic answer.

By my count only 1-Obama, 6-Pushes, and 12-McCain.

No matter how you weight the importance of each question and answer, I think McCain did well for himself.

Chip Ahoy said...

Oh fucksocks and cuntymints, I missed Dr. Who again!

Sloanasaurus said...

First, I really like the format. Candidates should do more debates like this where they don't know how the other guy responds. Maybe they can do a forum where the quetioner is a lefty like Katie Couric.

The first question really st the tone of the whole debate. Obama stats that his wife and grandmother are the wisest people he has known. That's like saying in a job interview that your greatest weakness is being motivated too much.

Six months ago Obama would have said the wisest person he had known was the Rev. Wright. So he had stated as much before. But, we all know how that ended.

There contrasting views on economics was also prevelent ere. Obama beleives that it is good policy to take from one group and give it to another. A la his oil winfall profits tax and his discussion on how he is going to tax the rich to give tax cuts to the middle class. Note that Obama is not taxing the rich to make things better for all Americans such as to build up the military, or to build better roads, or to build nuclear power... no he is taxing the rich to transfer wealth to the middle class and poor. This is pure class warfare and pure socialism. A horrid a evil policy.

ron st.amant said...

Seven Machos- are you saying you don't hate Obama? I retract "Obama haters" and instead will use the "anti-Obama commenters" as the preferred nomenclature.

Pal2Pal said...

Liberating? It makes a writer sound low class and dumb, IMHO.

I can honestly say that I never heard either of my parents ever use anything more than damn or hell's bells. And my husband, a 26 year Navy vet, not once used foul language in his own home or in front of me or the kids. What he did at work is a different story. I can't imagine him using either the eff or "c" word in mixed company. And if he heard dumbass do it in front of me or the kids, they'd most likely be sporting a few less teeth.

Seven Machos said...

Ron -- It is really possible for a person to miss the joke of a whole community on so many levels?

Beth said...

Ok, I'm putting my Adam Smith poster back up.

Sexy. What's going on with his invisible hand?

Chip Ahoy said...

Nice numeric tally there xwl, although I do believe people respond emotionally over rational tallies.

evil = mistakes. errors intended or unintended against the will of God, whatever that is. Like a man who shakes a crying baby and kills it, then feels like crap for having done that.

sin = the willful repetition of evil.

inequity = making a lifestyle out of sin. Living a life counter to the will of God, whatever that is.

I hate these kinds of questions. I'd get kicked out. A big boot mark on my bum.

ron st.amant said...

pal2pal writes: "Obama put everyone to sleep"

The applause from the audience was pretty good for people sleeping.

Palladian said...

"Sexy. What's going on with his invisible hand?"

I'm sure it's busy screwing the poor.

Chip Ahoy said...

Beth, my brother has a friend who's like that. An ex Navy diver, not a seal, just a regular diver. I never heard him say a single sweary word, although he tolerates my potty mouth.

Chip Ahoy said...

Applause embarrasses me. On the food network, they applaud every time Emeril Lagasse says the word garlic.

ron st.amant said...

Q1)3 wisest. Point to McCain, he was specific, chose people he actually met

Um...so Obama never actually met his wife Michelle or his grandmother? And General Petraus is the wisest man McCain has ever met?

Q2) Moral failure, personal and national. Point to McCain, fessing up to his failed marriage is a plus.

As opposed to not having a failed marriage which is a negative?


Q10) Evil. Point to McCain, even though he trotted out the Gates of Hell again.

A point maybe in that audience, but the Manichean worldview after 8 years of 'axis of evil' rhetoric...I'm not sure that wins for McCain, even if it won for Bush in '04.

Q13) Schools. Point to McCain, massively, and hugely, competition and choice are popular with voters, just not the unions.

If you use the words 'competition and choice' sure, but wander into 'vouchers' and the numbers go down.

Randy said...

I can honestly say that I never heard either of my parents ever use anything more than damn or hell's bells.

LOL! Same holds true for me, although my dad did toss in the rare "Jesus Christ, Mary and Joseph" usually followed by "What are you doing?" when we were doing something really stupid.

Chip Ahoy said...

Does st. stand for saint or for street? That always gets me. In sign language, I take it in phonetically and I try to get a "st" sound out of it, which fails, then I totally miss what follows. This is a problem.

ron st.amant said...

pal2pal writes: I can honestly say that I never heard either of my parents ever use anything more than damn or hell's bells

As a preacher's kid I never heard even those! In fact the first time I used the f-word, playing football in a neighbors yard, I actually waited for the lightening bolt to strike. Having to live in a profanity forbidden household has helped me rein in my tongue now that I have two little ones of my own!

Seven Machos said...

I think it's a degree of some kind bestowed by Jesuits.

Zachary Paul Sire said...

speaking of "fuck" i plan to do that tonight. it's been a while and i deserve it.

ron st.amant said...

Chip, it's 'saint'...please blame the French, and the abbey and town from which my ancestors hailed.

...having my name mispronounced 3 million times in my life has always been enjoyable

Randy said...

And General Petraus is the wisest man McCain has ever met

He could be. If you look around, you should be able to find an article showing that Petraus has had significant influence over promotions of the next generation of military leaders, so here's hoping McCain is right. Although I'm not enamored with McCain, I thought his answer to this question was much more appropriate and interesting than Obama's.

As opposed to not having a failed marriage which is a negative?

That wasn't the question, was it? The question was about a personal or national moral failure. McCain admitted his failure. What more did you want? What would you have preferred?

If you use the words 'competition and choice' sure, but wander into 'vouchers' and the numbers go down.

They sure do. An even bigger loser is to place responsibility and blame where it belongs, squarely on the shoulders of parents. Electoral suicide.

Fen said...

I retract "Obama haters" and instead will use the "anti-Obama commenters" as the preferred nomenclature.

No, please don't. Demonizing us as "haters" while lecturing about the need for civility in discourse was delicious irony.

Seven Machos said...

Words and phrases not to wander into:

*. race-based admissions
*. abortion
*. raise taxes
*. tax and spend
*. take away guns
*. appeasement
*. military defeat
*. amnesty for illegal immigrants
*. big government
*. liberal


Please make a note of it. Thank you.

Chip Ahoy said...

... I deserve it.

How so? Are you on a reward system?

Pal2Pal said...

Randy: For my parents, Jesus Christ was replaced with an emphatic "Jiminy Cricket."

My Mom, who died in 2004 at age 94 told me she never heard the eff word said out loud until she was in her late fifties when she overheard a young man talking to another young man (and job applicant) outside her office. He was there for a job interview. He had the unfortunate experience of having to interview with my Mom, who had already written him off as not up to the caliber of employee she wanted in her organization based on that remark.

When she was in her seventies, she wrote to a best selling author and told him that he was far too talented a wordsmith to resort to gratuitous foul language like his last published novel and he should return to his brilliant writing style and storytelling and leave the potty mouth to the hacks. He wrote back and thanked her and for the next fifteen years they carried on an active correspondence.

Fen said...

From FDL, this one's a keeper:

I’m furious that a candidate for President is forced to discuss his/her deepest theological feelings and belief. This is nothing other than destroying the notion of Church versus State.

We are so fucked.

Welcome fascist America.

Wake up America.

Chip Ahoy said...

words and phrases

*. Bush
*. Cheeney
*. Halburton
*. Blackwater
*. Nixon was my al-time favorite president
*. inflation, isn't that fun?
*. Windmills atop my backyard nuclear plant located in Yellow Stone
*. Polar bear soup
*. Self-reliance

Seven Machos said...

No one expects the Saddleback Forum Inquisition.

Chip Ahoy said...

fen, we're awake, thank you very much.

Jim Hu said...

For those who want to pore over the responses, there are transcripts.

More on McCain naming Lewis as one of his three on my blog.

Although I didn't see the whole thing, based on Althouse's liveblog and other reactions, I think the problem for Obama is that "above my pay grade" is sound bite/YouTube/negative ad material. Is there anything like that in what McCain did?

ron st.amant said...

Fen, so *I'm* the one that's guilty of demonizing around here for using the word 'haters'...yes yes such delicious irony indeed.

Seven Machos said...

Polar bear soup

I am intrigued. I'm thinking something with a garnish of the rarest caviar. With a hint of American eagle claw. Served as a gazpacho, of course.

Seven Machos said...

Ron -- Please show us these demonizations or shut the fuck up. Thank you.

Chip Ahoy said...

If FDL honestly thinks that's nothing other than destroying the separation of Church and State, then FDL has the entirely wrong idea about exactly what the separation of Church and State is.

Here's a primer for you. The framers were concerned too much power can be consolidated by combined positions of church and positions of state. Think Cardinal Richelieu. Actually the phrase isn't a part of any actual government document, just a note that Jefferson made. It's a phrase that been perverted to mean whatever the speaker intends. Usually a complete absence of religion at any point in government. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Religion is alive and well in the hearts of the politician and public servants.

When asked such a question, the proud atheist should simply say so. They'll no doubt get a round of applause. But as far as nothing less than destroying the concept of separation of Church and State, not so much. Sorry Bozo. Try again. Thanks for playing.

Randy said...

Ron: I am probably wrong, but it seemed to me that you were basically dangling a shoe, and thus bear no responsibility for anyone who steps forward, slips it on, announces it fits, and then proceeds to wear it.

ron st.amant said...

Randy, I wasn't taking issue with what McCain said, I was commenting upon XWL's giving a 'point' to McCain for 'fessing up' to failing in his marriage as a 'plus'.
First, what exactly was he 'fessing up' to? Everyone knows he's been divorced. Can you 'fess up' to a fact already known?
That McCain pointed to his failed marriage as a moral failing is an honest, brave assessment. Something that I think many people in his position, and in that setting, would rather avoid- so I agree with XWL to a point. I just thought the 'plus' assessment was strange I guess, especially when his opponent has evidenced no such 'failing'.

Seven Machos said...

A professor of mine once made an absolutely convincing case that the Constitution prevents the federal government from making a religion, not the states. (Now how the 14th Amendment affects that, he didn't address.)

Whatever the case, religion always has affected politics and always, always will, everywhere.

Chip Ahoy said...

Polar bear soup. Gamey at the best of times, overly fat which must be rendered, always tough. Matches well with Rosemary. Chose a robust red. I'm imagining.

Seven Machos said...

My making I obviously mean designating as official.

Chip Ahoy said...

Chaps, you've been a delight, but the sound of this water fountain is really getting on my nerves. I must now shut it off. Good night.

Fen said...

ron: Fen, so *I'm* the one that's guilty of demonizing around here for using the word 'haters'...yes yes such delicious irony indeed.

And now you're using Tu Quoque as a defense. Priceless.

Seven Machos said...

Have a great fucking night, Chip.

vbspurs said...

I put it on just before I left to go watch a late showing at the cinema.

It was McCain answering questions before they had been finished to be asked.

I must say, very impressive on McCain's part. He almost sounded like a Republican for a moment.

What cannot be denied is his emotional rendition of the two Christians celebrating Christmas...whilst he was being tortured as a POW.

He had more lifetime of experience in that moment, than Obama has had 'til today.

I arrived back just now, and I see I just missed Obama. I'll take it on faith he did well.

Why not indeed. These are two fairly decent candidates. Venezuela should be so luck as to have either.

Cheers,
Victoria

Joan said...

Chip, lovely summation there, but you're giving the FDL poster too much credit. The words were "Church versus State." The writer bemoans the destruction of an adversarial relationship between the two, positing that such thing actually exists. Well, I'm sure in the minds of most FDL readers, that's the status quo, or should be.

Palladian said...

"speaking of "fuck" i plan to do that tonight. it's been a while and i deserve it."

From the tenor of your comments lately, it seems that you need a good fucking. May he be well hung and show you no mercy, bitch.

"Venezuela should be so luck as to have either."

One of the two would fit right in in Venezuela.

Fen said...

Is there anything like that in what McCain did?

He joked that he would define "the rich" as those making 5 million. He'll regret that one.

But yes, Obama's "above my paygrade" was so bad that even the lefty blogs are cringing.

Sofa King said...

Oh, I missed all the swearing.

Semprini!

My grandmother is a proud Catholic and not the type to ever swear, ever, though she does bust out with "God Bless AMERICA" when particularly vexed, and was even heard to use the scathing epithet "Ah, Manischewitz!"

ron st.amant said...

Please show us these demonizations

Here's a sampling-

Joan: How can we know if he has the courage of his convictions if he has no convictions to begin with?

Paddy O: McCain is showing real, authentic passion. I didn't see that in Obama.

EnigmatiCore: Obama is a complete and utter phony

EnigmatiCore: Obama really is that bad. He's the worst kind of empty suit--- one who makes people think he's a fellow traveler but in reality he's just a say-anything do-anything to get ahead unprincipled jagoff.

PatCA: this was all about underlying values, and Obama doesn't have any...he's very attractive, world-citizen-ish, and morally vacuous.

Simon: Because Obama would be an apalling President who would do immense, lasting and possibly irreparable damage to this country

shut the fuck up

Oh yes, I forgot that one...thank YOU.

vbspurs said...

Great, Palladian. Now I have a vision of Obama in a raspberry beret with a parrot on his shoulder, just before turning in.

Ah well.

Night!

Randy said...

Victoria, a source for your statement that Colin Powell officially endorsed Obama last week would be appreciated. I've searched around and couldn't find one.

Fen said...

ron: Here's a sampling-

Your samples are all good faith criticisms of Obama. None of them demonstrate hate or demonization. You attempted to marginalize these people by implying their opposition to Obama was based on hatred.

shut the fuck up

With that lone exception, which you deserved.

vbspurs said...

Randy, I heard it on NPR. One sec, be right back after a specific Google! :)

vbspurs said...

Retraction, Randy.

Seems that Bill Kristol broke the news, and NPR merely must've reported that he had a "scoop". Here's a CNN story about it.

Mr. Kristol is wrong, but I was rash not to have double-checked. Sorry about that! :(

Fen said...

Mr. Kristol is wrong, but I was rash not to have double-checked.

Not so rash. I remember hearing the same thing, then conflicting reports about the veracity, quickly drowned out by more newsworthy topics.

ron st.amant said...

Fen- no underlying values, no convictions, morally vacuous...those are merely 'good faith criticisms'?

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Randy said...

Ah, yes. Mr Kristol. I wondered.... Always have two or three doses of salt when reading Mr. Kristol ;-)

Randy said...

If it happens, Vics, I'm betting on it happening during the convention. But he's an extraordinarily cautious man, as you know.

Peter Blogdanovich said...

I've been ruminating, cogitating, and generally putting my big brain to work analyzing Obama's tax policy proposals. The argument on the right is that people work hard to make money, and if you take away that inducement, they will work less. The argument on the left is a fairness argument, that if you are making big bucks, you should pay back to the system that made this possible. I believe both arguments miss the mark. The real problem lies in structural realities faced by entrepeneurs. If you are a creator of value, an inventor, an innovator, a fountainhead as per Ayn Rand, you are driven ineluctably by our current tax system into the arms of capitalist gate keepers, such as venture capitalists, investment bankers, and other assorted vermin who populate our financial systems. Briefly, these guys successfully stop the true innovators from accessing capital at a fair price. They claim they perform the important function of due diligence, vetting competing projects according to the merits. In reality, they put 99% of their effort into getting access to capital, while claiming they add value by sorting through deals. As a substitute for due diligence, they buy "spaces", for example, like lemmings, they buy (invest in)every company they can find working on e.g. nano-technology. If nano-technology hits big, they are covered. If you're a genius,and a fountainhead, you quickly figure this game out, and decide to go it alone. If you choose this path,you quickly realize the only working capital you have is your after tax retained earnings. When government raises tax rates, the effect is to starve out entrepreneurs who are going it alone, driving them into the arms of the financial gatekeepers. Entrepreneurs like me don't give a shit whether you tax us once we achieve our goals, but we care deeply about our projects, and their success. Ironically, Obama is playing into the hands of Wall Street investment bankers by raising marginal rates.
If he knew how venal, and avaricious, and ultimately unproductive these guys are, they'd be on the top of his list of people to screw, but he doesn't know. I believe he's a smart guy with his heart in the right place, who desperately needs to read "Atlas Shrugged", and "The Fountainhead".

Fen said...

Fen- no underlying values, no convictions, morally vacuous...those are merely 'good faith criticisms'?

They certainly aren't demonizations.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Not if you're going to presume that my disagreement is based on raw hatred and therefor invalid.

The Drill SGT said...

Chip Ahoy said...The framers were concerned too much power can be consolidated by combined positions of church and positions of state

I don't see that as a huge issue in English political experience. Very few Becket's, and even he only wore 1 hat.

I think the founders were far more cocerned about the TEST ACT, which prohibited English Catholics from holding offices. Hence the explicit text in the Constitution.

EnigmatiCore said...

Argh! All this f-ing here and I missed it.

The Drill SGT said...

The argument on the left is a fairness argument, that if you are making big bucks, you should pay back to the system that made this possible.

Their complaints are not grounded in the facts of the tax collection stats IMHO. From the WSJ 8 July 08:

New data from the IRS will be out in a few weeks on who pays how much in taxes. My contacts at the Treasury Department tell me that for the first time in decades, and perhaps ever, the richest 1% of tax filers will have paid more than 40% of the income tax burden. The top 50% will account for 97% of all federal income taxes, while the bottom 50% will have paid just 3%.

rhhardin said...

So Obama had the wit to perceive the irony and squelch it.

``Obama deserves credit for this minimal self-awareness.''

EnigmatiCore said...

"EnigmatiCore: Obama is a complete and utter phony

EnigmatiCore: Obama really is that bad. He's the worst kind of empty suit--- one who makes people think he's a fellow traveler but in reality he's just a say-anything do-anything to get ahead unprincipled jagoff."

Is criticizing the same as demonizing? I'd love to hear your explanation.

To show I am an equal opportunity "demonizer", I said much the same about Mitt Romney when he was running. So please leave me out of the partisan games.

I'll try to help you see the difference between being critical and demonizing. When Howard Dean says that Republicans are wrong on an issue, or are not being substantive, he is being critical. When Al Gore says Republicans want to kill more old people, he's demonizing. When I say Obama is an empty suit, I am criticizing his lack of substance. When someone calls him the Antichrist they are demonizing. Saying Bush spends money like a drunken sailor is criticism. Calling him a fascist is demonizing.

Surely this isn't hard to comprehend?

But if civility means never being critical of our politician overlords, I'll stay uncivilized.

AllenS said...

The definition of rich is anyone who has more money than me. If I had Obama's money, I'd throw mine away.

I don't use the f*** word on the blogs. I do like to use the word damnit.

EnigmatiCore said...

"Fen- no underlying values, no convictions, morally vacuous...those are merely 'good faith criticisms'?"

Since you used two comments of mine (wow, that's like holding two spots on the Billboard charts, idn't it?), I'm going to defend them.

I said "Obama is a complete and utter phony" (at least how you quoted it). I said that in response to Ann's line "I'm sure in his heart he supports full rights for gay people, but obviously, at this point, he can't say it.""

So what did I say?

"I still don't know what is right or wrong with regards to gay marriage, but Obama is a complete and utter phony (claiming to be for states' rights on the issue but opposing the DOMA and opposing Prop 8) on the issue and a complete and utter coward as well."

Holy cow, I've been dowdified! Talking about him on a specific issue in response to a contradiction seems to me to be well within the bounds of good-faith criticism. I just wonder why you left off the words "on the issue" from mine; I would have thought they would have gotten sucked in so that you could use the coward line.

Obama is a phony when it comes to gay marriage, and he was a coward for not speaking to that he believes. If this is demonizing to your eyes, then hurrah for demonization, and may our politics never be rid of it.

The second one you quoted, I am afraid I cannot defend nearly as well.

"But Obama really is that bad. He's the worst kind of empty suit--- one who makes people think he's a fellow traveler but in reality he's just a say-anything do-anything to get ahead unprincipled jagoff."

On this, I was responding to "There are 27 million slaves in the world. What will he do about that? Give prosecutors "the tools to crack down" in this country"

I was so gobsmacked at the incredible vacuousness of Obama's answer regarding slavery that I called him unprincipled and a jag-off. I should have left those two words off. He has principles, but mainly they are kept inside if he feels they will endanger his ability to get ahead.

John K. said...

Seven Machos said: "P.S.: I feel that I may have used the word "wrought" incorrectly. Sorry."

Yes, I think you meant to say, Look at the societies they [liberals] tend to have "reeked."

John K. said...

Defining "rich" versus "middle-class" is arbitrary, useless and unnecessarily loaded. For any conceivably relevant purposes, what should matter is whether a household makes more than the mean income. While I think income taxes in general are an abomination, if you're going to have them, only income above the mean should be taxed, on a flat-rate basis. My authority for that is Adam Smith, who pointed out how absurd and destructive it is to tax people on the "necessaries" of life -- understanding necessaries more broadly than the essentials of bare subsistence, to include everything necessary to establish and maintain a decent and reasonably secure standard of living in the society in which one lives.

Paddy O. said...

Paddy O: McCain is showing real, authentic passion. I didn't see that in Obama.

Vocabulary check. Demonization does not actually mean criticism.

It implies harsh accusation of particular evil or deranged character.



Did you also note that I said I liked Obama here? Such dastardly demonization!

What's very interesting is that you see criticism as demonization, which is worrisome. I blame the failing schools.

It's worrisome because when criticism equals demonization, when any negative comment is seen as extreme we are entering into a dangerous world where no criticism can be allowed, the kind we see in China, or other not so nice countries.

I think you owe me, and others here, an apology. You come here, mischaracterize our statements, re-categorize them, all to fit into the narrative that you almost certainly formed before you showed up.

Honestly, that's more obscene to me than any of the colorful language in this thread.

You should be ashamed of yourself, and I really mean that, because if you keep it up you are going to be quite unhappy, always offended, and maybe even dangerous if you get some power.

Fen said...

I think you [Ron] owe me, and others here, an apology. You come here, mischaracterize our statements, re-categorize them, all to fit into the narrative that you almost certainly formed before you showed up.

I don't think he even realized what he did. Thats why the calls for "more civility in discourse" annoy me. The people who pick up that argument don't even consider applying it to themselves.

Case in point:

Ron: Reading some of the comments I find it amazing that so many of the Obama haters seemed to totally have missed the message that Warren was trying to articulate: civility in political discourse.

Middle Class Guy said...

Palladian said...
I appreciate the usefulness of the word "fuck" but why do left wing weblogs feel they have to write that way all the time?



Because they are like little children. It is the same reason they make insulting snarks against anyone they do not like. It is the same reason they refuse to use a persons name, but refer to them in an insulting manner; McSame e.g.

Unfortunately, if one is a liberal scribe, one is not taken seriously unless they deman and dehumanize the opposition. You, know, you must be all the things the liberals are against.

Middle Class Guy said...

Chip Ahoy said...
words and phrases
*. Polar bear soup


I had some polar bear soup with an entree of Jamaican Jerked baby seal last week. Does this mean I can never run for public office. OH FUCK! (For Palladian)

AJ Lynch said...

No coverage of this debate in my morning paper. It was over at 10PM EDT. I find this to be curious. Anyone else have it covered in their papers? Or is the MSM avoiding it because it was held in a church?

PatCA said...

"I appreciate the usefulness of the word "fuck" but why do left wing weblogs feel they have to write that way all the time?"

To be hip and trendy and to shock the bourgeoisie--a demographic they live in but vehemently deny being part of.

Better watch your language, though. Anonymous sources could report it in the newspapers. And we all know they wouldn't print anything that isn't true.

Paddy O. said...

"To be hip and trendy and to shock the bourgeoisie--a demographic they live in but vehemently deny being part of."

Oddly enough, that's exactly the same reason I hear a lot of young Evangelicals and other chic Christians use salty language.

Comes off as terrible immature, and suggests a paucity of authentic emotion. Those are great words and shouldn't be watered down by overuse. We need them to be strong and stay offensive!

Dave said...

Middle Class Guy: ". Does this mean I can never run for public office?"

Nah, it just means that *if* you run for office you'll have to lie about it. Sort of like having terrorist bombers for friends.

From Inwood said...

Enigm (8:27 AM)

You just don't understand :-)

(1) Any, repeat, any, criticism of the Obamessiah (OOPS, even calling him the Obamessiah as I just did) is per se racist, which puts you (& me) beyond civilized debate.

(2) All reasonable people just feel (feeeeelings, oh, oh, feeeeelings) that Bush is, indeed, a fascist warmonger who went to War for Oil, &, QED, any such reference is not a demonization since the guy is already a demon. And all right-thinking people feel that Republicans want to, shall we say, f**k your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore (OOPS that last phrase is not in keeping with 21st Century multicultural thinking, so strike it), so calling attention to this reality is, well, calling attention to reality, &, QED, not demonization.

So there.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

"Seems to me that they both fudged the meaning of rich, and that the definition is not such a big deal."

Everyone seems to be fuged or confused on the definition of "rich". The politcians want to make "rich" all about income. Wealth /= income. Granted a good income is how to build wealth but they are not interchangeable concepts.

Likt Rick H. If you live in an expensive area like San Francisco it takes a LOT of income just to get by but that doesn't mean you are rolling in the dough.

Besides, in what world other than a socialist or communist world, do we have the right to rob some people of their wealth and income to give to others?

It is a big deal. A very very very big deal.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

oops. I mean Like Rick :-)

I really don't like McCain and disagree vehemently with many of his policies but I did think he did a very good job in the debate. I also liked the format in that they were both asked substantially the same questions so we could compare their answers.

The questions reminded me of many that are asked in job interviews for executive positions. "What is a moment you were most proud of?" "Describe a time you felt you failed and why?" etc.

Trooper York said...

I just came in from Mass and turned on the computer and read this thread. On a Sunday morning no less. All I can say is you should all be ashamed of yourselves.

You fucks.

From Inwood said...

Enigm

According to the Atlantic Monthly, Mark Penn urged Hill to portray Obama as un-American.

That is not demonization since it was said by a fellow Democrat. it would only be demonization if a Republican fascist said it.

Get it? If not, f**k you!:-)

Trooper York said...

I mean I expect that from Palladin. Smelling all that perfume does something to a person.

But Beth I must admit I am shocked. Do you kiss your partner with that mouth while rubbing oil on each other in a sensual bubble bath?

No really, I want to know.

AllenS said...

Answer the question, Beth.

DAMNIT!

vbspurs said...

Peter, great informative comment at 2:44 AM. I love it when I learn something.

And kudos to XWL for the scorekeeping!

KeesKennis said...

Hi Prof A,
My first time here.
I used to pay TAX in SA, hoping that at least part of it went to the wellbeing of mankind. Alas.
These days I will lie and cheat not to pay anything to any government.
No Taxes can be considerred "well spent"
I will take care of me and mine and those that I can help.
Not perfect, but we, me and my wife, have helped more people than we saw benefitting from the SA's ANC crowd.
What have this B Obama ever done to be able to compete in this race?
I won't be voting or paying taxes in the USA, but they will go up OHB wins, for sure.

Ruth Anne Adams said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sonicfrog said...

Palladian said:


I picked up my fucking foul mouth from my mother, from my stint at Yale and from teaching college students. That's a profession bound to turn the meekest among us into a fucking foul mouthed fuck.


LOLRMfuckingHO!!!

Well, Zach, how was it? Feeling better now? (and were you thinking of Michael Phelps at the time?)

Seven Machos said...

Ron, wow, dude. Fuck. Those are demonizations?

You don't really understand the word word "demonization." Or the word "hater."

Those are solid criticisms.

Kev said...

Does st. stand for saint or for street? That always gets me. In sign language, I take it in phonetically and I try to get a "st" sound out of it, which fails, then I totally miss what follows. This is a problem.

LOL. That reminds me of one of my visits to the Crescent City Brewhouse in New Orleans. It's on Decatur St. (street) in the French Quarter, and they named a burger after their location. As the server went around to everyone at the table, one of my friends looked up and promptly ordered a "Decatur Saint Burger," and he was being totally serious. Everyone else in our group (including the server) looked at him like he was from Pluto.

(Second-most-funny Brewhouse experience: With an even larger group, one guy (who obviously missed the giant vats at the front and the signs on the table advertising all the various beers brewed on site) manages to order a Miller Lite. Laughter again ensued from all.)

From Inwood said...

Palladian

I've got it: The Audacity of Fuck!

I've just sent your 12:36 around to some friends (with attribution, of course) with my emendation above as a re line.
********
Seven

st, "a degree of some kind bestowed by Jesuits".

Ha Ha.

How about an SCL Degree: a Licentiate in Caritas Theology, i.e., a Licentiate in the Theology of Hope. One of the Jesuit colleges can award it to the Obamessiah.

***********
Trooper Y:

NYY: The Audacity of Nope?

Hey, Jeter is 12 fer 19. Is it too audacious to hope that he can end up @ .300?

Trooper York said...

He will bring his average up but we have a tough road to make the playoffs. It's still possible but we have to go on big time winning streak. We have a lot of games left with Tampa and Boston so it's still possible. With Damon in center now and Matsui back to DH we are going to take our best shot at it.

Chip Ahoy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Host with the Most said...

Well, McCain supporters, we should all enjoy this small respite of joy in the "McCain won glow" while we can.

Because today, all the debates and all the Obama imagery will be controlled by the Main Strem media, where any McCain "attack" on Obama will be immediately questioned or countered by the media themselves. And where in any article on McCain, Obama's people will always get the last word.