January 18, 2008

Should a 10-year-old be permitted to go hunting?

There's a proposal to lower the hunting age from 12 to 10 in Wisconsin, something we talked about on "The Week in Review" on WPR this morning. Go here and scroll to the 43:45 point. I have something to say about it.

ADDED: Let me transcribe the key part of my comment:
A young boy who's 10 is very different from a young boy who's 12. I have two sons, and I think you go through a lot of changes in those years, and somebody who's 10 might be really open to bonding with a parent and learning how to do something new and something technical. I think being able to include a 10-year-old boy — a 10-year-old girl too (I mean, I don't have a girl, so I don't know) — but a boy who's 12 is more in his adolescence and more rebellious, and it may be a lost opportunity to really do something with your child....

I remember the way I was able to share activities with [my sons] when they were pre-adolescents. It's a wonderful time — I don't know if you have boys — but it's a wonderful time to do things with boys right before they go into adolescence... when they change... their emotions, their atttitudes... the things they want to do with you change. And so, I think that 10 should be seen as a very special age.

146 comments:

MadisonMan said...

Yes. What better way to learn that at the side of your parent, sharing a gun. Ten is the age to do this -- at twelve, a child has started on his or her walk to independence and might not care to hear what a parent has to say on any subject.

Matt said...

I don't really care for hunting, but inasmuch as anyone is allowed to do it, sure, a 10 year old should be allowed to as well.

dbp said...

As long as it is limited to squirrles, I am all for it.

In truth, I have a 10 year old daughter and I would let her shoot firearms, if we ever did that kind of thing, only under very controlled conditions.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Madison Man makes a great point!

Roger said...

I am not sure what it means to "go hunting." I am assuming it makes 10 year olds eligible to carry a firearm and shoot game. I think that is a parental decision.

On the broader point about hunting, I let my kids accompany me on my grouse and woodcock hunting trips when they were even younger--and according to them that remains one of their very important memories. They are now in their 30s and still remember their days in the woods. It taught kids about nature, and it also taught them that hunting involved killing, and to respect the game you killed, and make that killing a serious activity. Lots of very important lessons involved when hunting that are difficult to get in any other respect.

The Drill SGT said...

22 rifle, hunting squirrels, with a parent?

I can understand that

JSinger said...

Yes. What better way to learn that at the side of your parent, sharing a gun.

I'm with the guy quoted in the article: sharing a gun is dangerous and prevents the formation of safety habits. I also don't understand the logic for not requiring HSE for these kids.

former law student said...

There's no age limit in California; anyone who can read, write, and understand the questions on the Hunter Education exam well enough to pass can obtain a hunting license. As a practical matter that's age 10.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Under adult supervision why not?

Roger said...

I should clarify my post above: I did NOT let my kids carry or use my shotgun on these trips. Not until they went through hunter safety education and firearms training.

Salamandyr said...

I went hunting with my grandfather at 6. My uncles carried their rifles back and forth to and from school to hunt rabbits. I don't even really see why this is controversial.

ZPS said...

Ahh yes. Guns. Hunting defenseless animals.

Because how else would insecure men (and some women) fulfill themselves?

By all means...10 might not even be young enough. 8 years old seems more fair. As long as they can stand on their own two feet and the shotgun blast doesn't knock them backwards, any age is acceptable, really. 5 seems about fair.

Best to learn what it feels like to kill something at a very, very young age.

Lovely, Ann. Lovely.

Gary Carson said...

I think I was 6 when I went dove hunting with my daddy and deer hunting with my grandfather.

When I was 8 I went to visit my daddy at his summer Army Reserve summer camp and I fired some field artillery. It was really loud.

What's the problem?

Original Mike said...

My fondest memories of my Dad are hunting together when I was young. It started with me just accompanying him, and progressed to me hunting as well as I grew older (I don't remember how old I was at each stage). Not only was it a very important bonding experience with my Dad, but it lead to a lifetime love of the outdoors. I don't hunt anymore (though I did just go turkey hunting with my son-in-law) but these expeiences lead to a lifetime of camping, backpacking and wilderness canoeing. I am so grateful my Dad took me hunting when I was young.

knoxwhirled said...

Because how else would insecure men (and some women) fulfill themselves?

yikes. It's obvious who's insecure here. Look, it's ok... there are masculine activites that you might not like. But you don't need to be so threatened by them!

Sofa King said...

Because how else would insecure men (and some women) fulfill themselves?

I don't know...preening moralism maybe?

ZPS said...

For dads and their sons...I guess it's more fun than a game of Scrabble or a weekend camping trip. I guess it's more exciting than a lively discussion on the meaning of life around the dinner table. I guess it's more important than sporting events and roadtrips and bedtime stories.

Oh wait, I'm sure they do all of these things AND hunting, too! It's just something "special" about the hunting. Bonding over blood.

Worth dying for, even!

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/es/enforcement/safety/huntstats.htm

JSinger said...

Ahh yes. Guns. Hunting defenseless animals.

As Roger already noted, hunting and fishing teach kids about what their food looks like before it lands on their plates, and what it means to turn animals into meals. That way they don't make it into adulthood thinking that deer are "defenseless" but chicken breasts just materialize on supermarket shelves.

It won't keep you from launching into speeches with "Ah, yes", unfortunately; I'm not sure what will.

Roger said...

ZPS: You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you really have no idea. None.

former law student said...

zps: I eat defenseless animals every day, as do most people I know. What defense does anyone have against being loaded into a chute, stunned and having your throat cut? Hunted animals have the chance to escape the hunter, and be eaten by coyotes instead.

Trooper York said...

Gun safety lessons and father/son bonding are a common right of passage. In Brooklyn you also get to learn how an empty 7-up bottle makes a great improvised silencer for a 22 target pistol.

howzerdo said...

I am not crazy about hunting (full disclosure: or meat eating generally) but I am even less charmed by factory farming. That said, having grown up in an area where deer are plentiful and hunting is commonplace, I can only shake my head at the attitude of ZPS. My brother has shared a lot with his now grown up son and they have a great relationship: baseball, woodworking, an interest in politics, music, etc. That list includes hunting and fishing, btw.

goesh said...

- of course they should. At age 12, I was on my own with a .22 after gophers and the bounty their tails could bring. At age 13, I was hunting alone going after ducks, geese and pheasants, at 14, deer. I do advocate taking youngsters to slaughter houses to wrench out the stupidity Walt Disney tries to instill in their little heads. From the sweet grass to the packing plant, our canine teeth help keep us on top of the food chain and that means lopping off the head of Henny Penny, slitting the throat of Bambi, knocking Shirly the sheep in the head and of course cutting the nuts off Billy the bull calf so he can make his little trip to McDonalds when he gets bigger and fatter.

ZPS said...

Call it whatever you want, but violence is violence.

Sugarcoating it by calling it a bonding experience or a meaningful moment doesn't take away the fact that you're killing in the name of sport.

I'm so fortunate to not have been raised under such horrific circumstances!

***

Bird dog steps on gun, kills hunter

Wed Jan 9, 2008 9:10am EST

HOUSTON (Reuters) - A Houston-area man was killed in a hunting accident after his dog stepped on a loaded shotgun in the back of a pick-up truck, triggering a blast that pierced the vehicle and the hunter's leg, a local sheriff said.

Perry Price, a 46-year-old math teacher, shot a goose on Saturday then put his gun in the back of the truck where the dog was waiting to retrieve the bird.

"I've been in law enforcement 20 years and this is probably the strangest one I've had," said Chambers County Sheriff Joe LaRive.

Investigators found paw prints and mud from the dog, a chocolate Labrador retriever named Arthur, on the shotgun, LaRive said.

Price was taken to a local hospital, but died from a loss of blood after doctors were unable to revive him.

SGT Ted said...

Because how else would insecure men (and some women) fulfill themselves?

eeeek. They're shooting bambi! Because they are insecure! What a stupid statement.

Grow the ef up, you moron.

Humans who kill their own food are more intellectually honest about life and death than preening faux moralist idiots like yourself who pays others to do the ugly work of getting your food ready for you, just so you can sneer at people who have a lifestyle with which you disapprove.

Don't like guns? Fine, don't own one. Or get therapy for your inability to cope with ordinary things of life.

Roger said...

goesh and howzerdo make some great points about factory farming. I found it interesting that in the latest Coen brothers movie, Tommy Lee Jones' character had to explain the stunner that the killer was carrying around. How many people would have known what that particular device was had not it been explained? We avert our eyes to the horrors and inhumanity of factory farming yet complain when the price of beef gets too high.

former law student said...

you're killing in the name of sport

Hunting an animal you're going to eat is intensely spiritual because you realize that that animal is giving its life for yours.

I found that James Swan's In Defense of Hunting captures such feelings. I recommend it to everyone, hunter, non-hunter, and anti-hunter.

SGT Ted said...

Call it whatever you want, but violence is violence.

Yep, and what you prove is that you are a coward who hides behind others doing violence on your behalf and then you berate them for doing so, all in a tone that suggests you are superior and more enlightened.

What you actually are is a parasite; alive, well fed and safe only because of the efforts of men and women better than yourself, who will do that deplorable violence for you, so that your delicate, enlightened sensibilities will not be shocked with the reality you avoid.

Trooper York said...

HOUSTON (Reuters)
A chocolate Labrador accused of shooting his master on a hunting trip has pleaded not quilty. The dog who is named Arthur has claimed that his master had been sexually abusing him ever since he had been adopted as a puppy. “He never let me alone, always pushing on me, it was gross. I saw the opportunity to be free of his abuse and it was the only way to get out of this relationship. After all he owns me.” Andrew Sullivan of the American Man Dog Love Association has said that the arrest is a grave miscarrige of justice. “I don’t know if the abuse allegations are true, but the love that a man and a dog can share are like nothing else on this earth” the rotund beagle fancier shouted in a rally outside the courthouse. “ I will not rest until a marriage between a man and his beagle are treated with the same repect as that between a mere man and woman.” Also present was the Rev. Al Sharpton who claimed that the only reason the dog was arrested was because he was brown. “Another example of guilty by reason of being a canine of color. No justice, no peace.” The district attorney was not available for comment.

Roger said...

For those that enjoy osso bucco or scallopini, please visit a confinement shed operation for holstein bull calves. They can usually be found near a large dairy operation.

reader_iam said...

violence is violence.

You're vegetarian, right?

Modern Otter said...

I don't have a strong view on this particular proposal, but I find it startling that any proposal in any legislature today actually aims to lower the minimum age for anything. Generally, the trend over the last few decades has been toward prolonged infantilization, don't you think?

Roger said...

Trooper: Subsequent investigation revealed the Chocolate Lab in question actually belonged to the tax attorney that VP Cheney shot. After agressive questioning by local police (waterboarding was suspected), the dog finally confessed that he believed it was VP Cheney he was shooting.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Someone's posturing, Lord, kumbaya,
Oh Lord, kumbaya.

Middle Class Guy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Revenant said...

Should a 10-year-old be permitted to go hunting?

I don't see why the government should have any say in the matter at all. The parents are best able to judge if their son or daughter is ready.

Middle Class Guy said...

jsinger said
...sharing a gun is dangerous and prevents the formation of safety habits.

You are presuming that a responsible person would take someone into the field without teaching them firearm safety and rudimentary shooting skills. No responsible sportsman would do that, no matter the age of the person they are with.

As to ZPS, you are entitled to your opinion about hunting and killing. But you are ignorant about hunters. Hunters have a higher respect for animal life and teach others that respect. Most conservation efforts in this country were started and pushed by sportsman- not environmentalists. They came late to the game.

As to accidents, yes, unfortunately there are accidents. So what? There are accidents, some fatal, in every pursuit. The most dangerous activity we participate in every day is to drive. So do we ban driving because it permanently injures and kills more people every year than major wars? I guess shopping is a pretty safe pursuit. It teaches children all about conspicuous consumption, they get exercise by mall walking in a controlled environment and the only worry is child predators at the mall.

If you can train your child in hunter and gun safety or have them attend classes, then ten is not too young. They are old enough to understand and it is a good time to teach responsibility. They have an appreciation for participating in your activities. It is also an age they develop patience, which is necessary in the field.

Bottom line; you raise your kids your way and leave the rest of us alone.

The Drill SGT said...

SGT Ted said...What you actually are is a parasite; alive, well fed and safe only because of the efforts of men and women better than yourself, who will do that deplorable violence for you, so that your delicate, enlightened sensibilities will not be shocked with the reality you avoid.

The SGT interestingly made a statement about hunting that resonates in our other shared experience:

something like:

Good folks sleep safely at night, because rough men are willing to do violence on their behalf

or something from Heinlein that he probably got elsewhere but I remember from "Starship Trooper"

the mudfoot who places his frail body between his loved home and the war's desolation — but is rarely appreciated... he has the toughest job of all and should be honored."[

reader_iam said...

I'm not vegetarian, and I also have no illusions as to how the meat on my plate is produced. Non-violent isn't an adjective I'd choose in connection with that; in fact, violence is inherent to my diet.

My husband IS vegetarian, for philosophical reasons.

We can respect each other's views (obviously, since it's an issue faced, practically speaking, on a daily basis).

What we, jointly, do not respect are those who rail against hunting on the grounds of violence to animals but who eat meat mass produced, because somehow that violence doesn't count. That somehow, someone killing an animal with a gun is committing more violence than a slaughterhouse worker doing his or her job. That because of the latter, the non-hunting meat eater is has greater moral purity than hunters.

Hogwash.

reader_iam said...

/OT

OT: I think it comes down to the maturity of the kid, and government isn't so great at determining that on an individual basis. I think you let the parents decide, absence compelling evidence that they're incompetent to do so.

Middle Class Guy said...

zps,
The guy was not killed because of hunting. He was not killed because of an accident caused by his dog. He was killed because he was an irresponsible human. He neglected to unload his gun prior to putting it in the vehicle. His own stupidity killed him.


Hey, trooper, did the article say anything about recovering a muffalata sandwich? A chocolate brown lab ran off with mine because his owner let him off leash.

I tried to take a shot at the mutt, but a lady walking a poodle got in the way and I did not want to kill the poodle.

Middle Class Guy said...

zps said:
...lively discussion on the meaning of life around the dinner table.


Ruining a good meal with drivel? There is only one thing I discuss at my dinner table- the food and of course the next days menu planning. How can one properly enjoy a meal with fine wine and discuss the meaning of life with children at the same time?

Trooper York said...

My dalmatian stole a roast beef right off the stove once and I chased all around the yard. She loved to jump up on the table to see what she could grab. The bitch.

Kirk Parker said...

reader_iam,

"
You're vegetarian, right?
"

Good heavens, no. That would mean cruel violence against poor, defenseless fruits, vegetables, and grains.

Clearly breatharianism is the only moral choice here.

reader_iam said...

I'd have to look up the statistics, so I write the following with great caution, which is how people should read it: I believe it's been reported that slaughterhouse workers suffer injury at something like three times the rate of other manufacturing workers, and it may even be one of the most dangerous occupations.

SGT Ted said...

I actually did read that in Heinlein. But it merely confirmed what I have always thought about the protectors of society and what is wrong with pacifists and pacifism; a lack of taking responsibility for one's safety and then acting superior to those who DO provide that function.

It is the classic limousine liberal elitist mindset. Those that DO the hard, dirty work are inferior, and are to be scorned by those who won't sully their hands or "conscience" with same.

They should be grateful, but are ingrates. Parasites.

Superdad said...

"that you're killing in the name of sport"

For me it is not sport. It is part of the education of my children. From very early on, I tought them where every thing they ate came from. Burger = cow; bacon = pig. We planted a vegitible garden so they could understand the process of planting, harvesting and preparing the food. Hunting allows me to do that same process with animals. We process our own venision. My children know that everything we eat was alive at one point (plants too) and that each animal and plant gave its life so she could live. My children understand how all living things are connected better than most.

But I guess, I am just a simpleton and should go get some factory farm burger and pretend no cows died in the process.

goesh said...

- way back when, 'boys' could go to Viet Nam and kill men at age 17. I have ancestors who at age 14 and 15 were militia men/Indian fighters on the Virginia frontier and later enaged the British in one battle each at ages 16 and 17. Times have changed but not so much us.

reader_iam said...

How can one properly enjoy a meal with fine wine and discuss the meaning of life with children at the same time?

Want some pointers?

(Don't worry: I'm kidding.)

Trooper York said...

You just have to duct tape the kid into his Packer's jersey and tape him to the chair. Isn't that the style in Wisconsin?

JSinger said...

You are presuming that a responsible person would take someone into the field without teaching them firearm safety and rudimentary shooting skills.

I'm not presuming that at all, and am not sure how you've reached that conclusion. Habits are distinct from training, and sharing a rifle is a bad idea regardless of training.

Mr. Forward said...

Ed: "...Everyone knows that the surge is failing..."

Ann (archly): "The surge is failing? ... That's your position?"

Ed: "You got it. Yes it is."

Ann (dismissively) "Oh... OK."

31:20

The Drill SGT said...

Well SGT Ted, since I'm on a roll with Heinlien, here is another that Trooper York would like as well, fits the topic at hand:

"There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men."

SGT Zim

ZPS said...

People who hunt for food, because that's the way they provide for their family, are fine. If you need to put food on your table and killing rabbits or squirrels is the best way to do it...have at it.

People who kill for sport...to hang antlers on their walls or get off on the "hunt".......I will never understand.

Bonding over taking animal life is the same thing... something I will never understand. War and violence and death are all around us...and I think it would be more productive to engage in "bonding activities" that don't involve death and violence.

former law student said...

Re: breatharianism

My father-in-law, who is retired and will talk to anyone who comes to the door, ended up with a pamphlet on Fruitarianism. According to the pamphlet, eating fruit is ethical, not only because eating fruit does not harm the plant, but because the plant produces it to be consumed, as a way of propagating its seed. Vegetarianism, even veganism, is unethical because they allow consuming entire living beings. If you eat a cabbage or a broccoli, that's the end of the road for that living being. Therefore, eat fruit, and look askance at vegetable eaters.

Smilin' Jack said...

I like meat, and eat a lot of it. I don't have a problem with killing animals for food. I'd do it myself if I had to, and I don't have any problem with the guy at the slaughterhouse who kills animals because he's paid to. But they guy who gets up before dawn, drives miles away from the supermarkets into the cold wet woods and spends hours trying to shoot a deer--he's killing animals because he enjoys killing animals and for no other reason. That strikes me as weird, and a little creepy.

Trooper York said...

Cole Thornton: (grabs rifle away from Joey MacDonald)
If you point a gun at someone young lady, you should use it or don’t point it at all.
(El Dorado, 1966)

Sheriff John T. Chance (to Angie Dickinon’s breasts) If you point those at someone, you better use them or don’t point them at all.
(Rio Bravo, 1959)

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Habits are distinct from training, and sharing a rifle is a bad idea regardless of training.

Quite so.. each person should have their own firearms and be responsible for safety, cleaning and maintenance. The firearm or rifle suitable for a large man may not be the best weapon for a smaller child or a woman. That was what you meant?

People who hunt and children who partcipate in 4H activites raising animals that will end up in the freezer have a greater respect for life than those who have no connection to the chain of life. They assume that chickens and steaks magically appear in the grocery store and have no thoughts about how they actually got there.

I agree with the Sgts take on hunting and those who are parasites on society. It seems that the parasites want to dictate to the productive.

"The creator stands on his own judgment. The parasite follows the opinions of others. The creator thinks, the parasite copies. The creator produces, the parasite loots. The creator's concern is the conquest of nature. The parasite's concern is the conquest of Man. The creator requires independence - he neither serves nor rules. He deals with men by free exchange and voluntary choice. The parasite seeks power. He wants to bind all men together in common action and common slavery"

When civilization crumbles the plumber, the farmer, the hunter, the carpenter.. all the persons who "can" will be kings and queens. The ZPS's of the world will be....redundant and useless.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

The ZPS's of the world will be....redundant and useless.


Ummmm.....and that also includes my occupation. Good thing I know how to clean and cook the game :-)

SGT Ted said...

People who kill for sport...to hang antlers on their walls or get off on the "hunt".......I will never understand.

It's because you have lived a sheltered existence. Same with Smilin' Jack. You think it's weird to hunt? It's a normal human activity. I thinks it's weird that people DON'T hunt or are put off by it. It shows an ignorance of humanity and history. They are missing out. I know people that go hunting and fishing right before work and right after work. They don't sneer at people who don't hunt.

I think that people who enjoy living in large cities are a bit weird, but I don't pass judgement on them, because lots of good things come from cities. I prefer hunting in the wild to going clubbing or whatever city people do for fun.

And that guy who hangs antlers on his wall or bypasses the grocery store to go hunting in the woods? He is eating what he takes. He is proud of his hunt. There are very few trophy hunters anymore and is an exclusive minority of hunters that go for such, usually because of the cost.

You guys need to open your minds and show more of your oft proclaimed tolerance towards folks who are different than you.

Chip Ahoy said...

I saw a preacher-hunter take his two kids bow hunting, that would be hunting with bows, not hunting for them. The girl was about 10 yrs. and the boy about 8 yrs. They were hunting Canadian geese.

"Now aim just a few feet in front of them, Honey." Girl nods. *schwing* An arrow flung so slowly you could watch it go right into the neck of a goose. The girl seemed struck silent as if facing the enormity of it all, of her act. No childish gleeful hopping up and down there, just amazement.

Then, of course, they would have to clean it and that part they didn't show which bums me out because I'm rather curious how one does that without feeling just a little bit Jeffery Dahmer.

Like the video of the mother squirrel-hunting with her boy, she didn't let him, or us, see that part.

SGT Ted said...

It seems that the parasites want to dictate to the productive.

As it has ever been. They call themselves "Progressives". Hillary! self identifies as such. That isn't a coincidence.

swisnieski said...

Can Americans have one discussion about guns that doesn't degenerate into insinuations of the proponents' psychological instability and/or the inadequate girth of their genitalia?

rhhardin said...

Hunters in Ohio don't seem to be making much of a dent in the deer population, to judge by the deer wreckage by the side of the road each day.

Here's one devouring Ohio's wildflower crop.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Then, of course, they would have to clean it and that part they didn't show which bums me out because I'm rather curious how one does that without feeling just a little bit Jeffery Dahmer.

Just concentrate on fava beans and nice chianti.

Trooper York said...

It's lenght not girth. Any erection counts as a chubby, but not all chubbys are really erections. Your milage may vary.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I think, statistically speaking, girth may be a more important component.

Royce said...

ZPS: "War and violence and death are all around us..."

Yes they are ZPS. You see, these things are part of something that, for lack of a better term, we call life.

Keeping you as insulated as you apparently are from this whole "life" thingy, takes tremendous money, resources and the (what I'm sure you would find "dirty") work of others.

As for "getting off on the hunt", what better way for the male squad of the hunter/gatherer team to express their authenticity...? My sons and I only kill things that we eat (except for varmints) and it's thrilling, challenging and quite often does not render a dead animal. That's why it's called "hunting", not "killing". Who they hell are you to question my culture!!!???

ZPS, your anthropomorphizing, nonsensical attitude about animals and your clueless take on the human condition would be just plain laughable if not for the fact that it's shared by so many. But, nature will out. We’re one major natural disaster (think Yellowstone caldera…) from you and folks like you meeting the “life” thingy first hand.

Good luck with that.

Roger said...

Re swisnieski's comment: I know it is common to hear freudian references to firearms, but does Freud himself talk about such references? And this question is specific to Freud's writings; not any other psychologists.

Trooper York said...

Perhaps but an under reported issue is of course the partners circumference so to speak. At full elasticity the aperture should be cohesive enough so it's not like throwing a hot dog down a hallway.

Middle Class Guy said...

ZPS said:
I think it would be more productive to engage in "bonding activities" that don't involve death and violence.

Then you better stop those dinner discussions on the meaning of life. They happen to involve death and violence I forget how many homicides I have handled where people were killed over dinner time discussions. Thanksgiving has an unusually hig rate of murders at the dinner table. Had some great suicides at the dinner table too.

Farm raised rabbits and pheasants do not taste the same as wild ones. The same goes for ducks, geese, and deer. I like to eat grouse and woodcock. The only way to eat them is to hunt them, as they cannot be raised in captivity. No one sells squirrels, so if I need to eat a good squirrel stew, I have to go out and kill some.

Should I be denied my right to culinary diversity? I also like fois gras, and do not care how it is produced. Just let me eat it.

birdie bob said...

ZPS at 12:34:
"War and violence and death are all around us..."

Then I can be safe in assuming that you are encouraged by the fact that only 1.2 million abortions were performed last year since it is a decline from a peak of 1.6 million but that you are still dismayed that 1.2 million abortions are being performed each year?

Royce said...

Middle Class Guy,

Add wild turkey (the bird, not the bourbon...) to that list. Grouse is wonderful to eat and bloody hard to hunt. Also...you may be the only other person I've heard of that like to eat Woodcock!

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trooper York said...

Yeah MCG, you really shouldn't post that on the internet, Pinnochio might start stalking you.

JSinger said...

Quite so.. each person should have their own firearms and be responsible for safety, cleaning and maintenance. The firearm or rifle suitable for a large man may not be the best weapon for a smaller child or a woman. That was what you meant?

No, it's not. The law here would require that the adult carry the gun. That:

1) Is unsafe for precisely the reason the article says. Hurriedly exchanging guns is dangerous. The person who is going to shoot should be carrying the weapon. (Unless your native gunbearer is lugging around your elephant rifle for you, which seems unlikely in Wisconsin.)

2) Does not develop safe habits for carrying a weapon. Even if the child has learned in theory how to, say, safely step over a fallen log, there's no learning by doing.

Roger said...

Royce and Middle Class Guy--Grouse is the finest of game birds, IMO. Woodcock, and their cousin, the Wilson Snipe are also great eating and great hunting. I hunt the latter two with a 28 double.

Trooper York said...

When hunting woodcock is the girth or the length the most important consideration?

Roger said...

Trooper: girth without doubt.

Trooper York said...

Good. I was hoping it wasn't what tastes great and what's less filling.

Roger said...

Although you might want to check with Dust Bunny queen who apparently has her own criterion.

Royce said...

My sons walked with me many times on hunts without a rifle/shotgun before they even went to hunter's safety. It showed them what hunting was about - to see if they were truly interested. And it gave my friends and me a chance to teach by example.

We never, ever carried a loaded weapon for another hunter and handed it to them - child or adult - to take a shot at game.

Trooper York said...

Hey whatever floats your boat. Remember the immortal words of John Paul Jones upon meeting the Empress of Russia, "It's not the sixe of the ship baby, it's the motion of the ocean."

Trooper York said...

That's "size" of the ship. Sorry teacher.

Middle Class Guy said...

One of the finer delicacies is the liver from a freshly killed deer, cooked and eaten as soon as possible. Another is a French delicacy whose name escapes me. It is the cooked innards of the woodcock spread on toasted baguette slices. They only way to enjoy these is to hunt.

I remember one cold thanksgiving years ago. We handled a murder at the dinner table. The family was having a discussion on the meaning of life and what they had to be thankful for. Some time during the passing of the gravy and the scooping of mashed potatoes, the victim was having a rather heated discussion with his brother over the meaning of who was going to get the remaining drumstick. It was a meaningful life and death discussion. His brother wanted the drumstick and meant it. He stabbed his brother and got his drumstick and ate it. What made the murder so memorable? The family was still eating dinner and talking with the body slumped face down on the table. When we went to remove the body, we discovered he was pinned to the table with the carving knife. We had to cut the table up. Family was PO’d. It was a nice table.

Middle Class Guy said...

I was reminded I left out wild turkeys. They have a whole other flavor than the bland farm raised birds we eat. Wild boar is also very good too.

I have never hunted moose, but I understand that the snout makes a fine meal. Others have told me that beaver tail, roasted over a hot fire is delicious.

save_the_rustbelt said...

ZPS:

The most violent thing I have seen lately is a deer being hit by a Chevy Cobalt. The deer won.

I don't anyone who hunts for just for sport, venison, rabbit, squirrel, turkey..... yum, yum.

Trp. York - you are a very bad boy, but since you have memorized more movie lines than I you are forgiven :))

Trooper York said...

I understand moosecock is a Canadian delicacy. But that could just be a rumor.

Original Mike said...

JSinger said: The law here would require that the adult carry the gun.

Where did you get that idea from? I don't see it in the article, and it doesn't make sense to me. What's the point to this law, then? To my knowledge, nothing now prevents a 10 year old from accompanying the adult hunter.

Trooper York said...

The word in the cartoon world was that Ariel the little Mermaid also enjoyed moosecock. But Bullwinkle always claimed that was just fan mail from a disgruntled flounder.

former law student said...

Trooper: My uncle who proudly displayed his woodcock was married to a woman who treasured her cedar chest.

Trooper York said...

Ouch, splinters.

paul a'barge said...

I'm sorry, but the last person who should opine about the relationship between a 10 year old boy or a 12 year old boy and his father is a mother.

Venus, Mars and all that stuff, but that's a fact.

If you're a woman/mother with sons, you may think you know about a son's relationship with his father, but you do not.

rightwingprof said...

A minimum hunting age? Indiana has no such thing, and neither does Kentucky, which explains why I have never heard of a minimum hunting age. Why is it the business of the government, and not the parents, to decide when a kid can hunt?

knoxwhirled said...

People who... are fine.

People who... I will never understand.

I think it would be more productive...


And here we have the building blocks of the nanny state.

hdhouse said...

former law student said...
you're killing in the name of sport Hunting an animal you're going to eat is intensely spiritual because you realize that that animal is giving its life for yours."

Not that the animal voted on the matter. My father took me hunting at 8 with a 22 that I still own. We did, however, use blanks which he felt was in the interest of safety and there was no sense in killing anything just to eat. I never learned that it wasn't satisfying to not kill. When I was old enough to use ammunition I didn't and haven't shot the rifle since with no great loss.

I don't dislike hunters or put them down. I do the Cheney types who put the birds in sacks and shake them up and toss them in the air...that isn't hunting. 70 birds in an afernoon isn't hunting so there is a moral limit here in my mind at least.

but to the point, would any parent let a 10 year old out with a gun without strict supervision? in this day and age? so of course if it is a responsible adult guiding then the only question is addressing the values to be taught during a time when there is no i-pod, no tv and no distractions - just interaction.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Oh, wooden tit be loverly!
(My Fair Lady, 1956)

hdhouse said...

trooper york...

pour some wild turkey please...up, neat?

rightwingprof said...

"What you actually are is a parasite; alive, well fed and safe only because of the efforts of men and women better than yourself, who will do that deplorable violence for you, so that your delicate, enlightened sensibilities will not be shocked with the reality you avoid."

Very well said, sir.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

OMG. Leave for a moment to actually work with clients and see what chaos erupts. Hot dog down a hallway. Woodcock. Pinocchio. Bwaaaahaaaa.

Here is my recipe for marinating wild duck, pheasant or goose breast before smoking in low heat smoker or bbq.

First...to gross out ZPS (and probably everyone else) and confirm all his suspicions about evil hunters...rip the guts out of the bird with your bare hands.. giggling madly at the cruelty and gore of it all, reveling in the death of one of God's creatures. Cut off the neck try not to rupture the birds crop. Cut off the feet and wings. Too tough and not enough meat to save. Skin it. (If it is a Pheasant save the pretty feathers and/or salt dry the skin with feathers on for future crafting projects.) Or you could just breast the bird and forget all the other gore. :-)

Rinse the inside and debone the breasts. Save the rest of the carcass for something else. Duck pot pie is pretty nice.

1/2 cup non iodized salt
1/4 cup Grandma's Chili Powder (or combine regular chili powder and and 1 tbsp cumin 1 tsp oregano to equal 1/4 cup.)
1 lb light brown sugar.

Combine and sift heavily over meat and let sit overnite or for at least 6 hours. Smoke at 225 to 250 deegrees for several hours in hickory or apple smoke. Less if they are small breasts. Medium rare is best.

Now...back to work.

Trooper York said...

No problem hd, you are always welcome. I will even introduce you to my Old Grand Dad.

Synova said...

Not to pile-on or anything (because it's not as though ZPS holds *unusual* views)...

"If you need to put food on your table and killing rabbits or squirrels is the best way to do it...have at it."

I'd be the first to criticize someone who killed an animal and let it rot. The idea that it's moral to hunt only if you NEED the food, is wrong though. It isn't a reasonable concession, though I'm sure it's meant to be. Why is it better to let someone else kill for you and wrap it up in plastic?

I would think that hunting for food is more moral and if you *need* to buy food killed by someone else to put food on the table, well then that's okay, too.

I grew up knowing where my food came from. Meaning of life discussions around the dinner table often included the name of the creature we were eating, "Hey, this steak is good. Is this still Eric or have we started on Rusty?"

(Feeding baby mice to our pet snakes is the closest my kids have gotten to the same type of experience with the circle of life. It's valuable.)

When I was a kid I went duck and deer hunting on our own property but never saw any ducks or deer to shoot at.

One sort of funny hunting story... one day during duck hunting season these guys in a nice car drive up to the farm. The answer to "can we hunt on your pond" was always "no" but they didn't want to hunt on our pond.

They wanted to buy ducks.

So my mom, entirely bemused, sold them a few ducks. So, they put the ducks in a box and shot them. And went back to Minneapolis to show off the "mallards" they got on their trip.

Too fat to fly, but at least they were the right color.

rightwingprof said...

I was raised on a cattle farm, so we had no delusions about where the food came from. I am curious about this bizarre concept of a minimum hunting age. We didn't hunt off the farm without Dad or Grampa until we were teenagers, but when we were kids -- six, seven, you know, kids -- we shot varmints on the farm all the time. Had this odd, intrusive, and silly law been on the books, would we be in jail now?

I was 10 when I got my first .22 and put the BB gun up.

Middle Class Guy said...

Synova said...
Too fat to fly, but at least they were the right color.



It was only a matter of time before someone introduced race and obesity into the mix.

LOL

Middle Class Guy said...

If there was no hunting then there would be no hunting dogs. Now hunting dogs are great breeds. They are affectionate, love to please, and are willing to work hard all day in the woods, fields, or on the water for nothing more than a pat on the head and some kibbles.

They are loyal and loving family members too. Once, in the woods of Minnesota I was hunting grouse with a friend's dog. A bird flushed. Before I could get the gun up, the dog jumped and snatched it in mid air. Hell, who needs a shotgun whit a dog like that?

On and the absolute only good thing canned cream of mushroom soup is good for is cooking wild game birds. Just add some extra black pepper, freshly ground of course.

John Kindley said...

I have a memory from about age 10 of drinking a (i.e. one) Strohs and shooting a huge-ass .357 Magnum across the river (at an upward trajectory ... but the other half of our city was over there) with my uncle and his friend. I got a real "kick" out of it.

ZPS said...

Everyone's defensiveness is truly telling.

I'll say it again...people who get off on the hunt and kill animals in order to bond or engage in "sportsmanship" are obviously lacking something in their lives.

I'd love to see something shoot you in the head from 200 yards away. Never saw it coming...did ya?

reader_iam said...

I'd love to see something shoot you in the head from 200 yards away.

I love the smell of irony in the late afternoon.

Never saw it coming...did ya?

Well, yes. Yes I did, as a matter of fact. I'm only surprised it took you so long to write it.

Middle Class Guy said...

One snowy Christmas Day we got a call of a man shot. When we arrived, there he was, sitting in his chair at the kitchen table and a semi-automatic pistol on the floor under his dangling hand.

The investigation revealed that he was a dope dealer who had received the semi-auto as a Christmas present from one of his homies.

While the family was having their Christmas dinner and discussing meaningful things like the birth of Christ, peace on earth, and the meaning of Christmas, this mook decided to use his new toy to recreate one of the Russian Roulette scenes from the Deer Hunter- which was popular that year at the dinner table.

Got the shock of his short life. Never can trust those damn autos.

Royce said...

ZPS - You're silly. You don't shoot a big game animal through the head. You shoot them in the heart-lungs.

Synova said...

People enjoy hunting because we are made to enjoy the activities that contribute to survival of the species.

It's the same reasons we are prone to like sports and competitions.

It's the reason we like sex.

It's the reason we enjoy gardening.

It's the reason we compulsively breed better plants and better dogs and have discovered genetics and how to breed odd colored snakes and white cockatiels and prettier flowers.

All of those activities, though we don't all enjoy each of them in the same amounts, tickle the parts of our brains that give us *pleasure*.

Hunting is fundamental on that list for the same reason that hunting was fundamental to our cave person ancestors, *as was* agriculture, as was Adam's first task of taxonomy... the basis of science itself is the very first task God gave to man.

And we *love* it.

And we love contests.

We love puzzles.

And we love hunting.

To NOT enjoy the things essential to biological survival is what indicates that something is "obviously lacking" in a person's life.

Royce said...

Well said synova!

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Synova: another funny hunting story. People in our area swear that this is a true story.

A bunch of local guys would annually go to a neighboring state which shall remain un-named (but where prostitution and gambling are legal) supposedly to shoot upland game, sage grouse in particular. The trip would last for about a week.

One of the wives being suspicious of the entire trip and sick of the expense of it all, rolled up a one hundred dollar bill and put it into the barrel of the shotgun.

When the hubby came home with the cleaned grouse, she inquired about the trip. He basically said they had a great time and bragged about what a good shot he was etc etc. Imagine his surprise when she broke down the shotgun and removed the one hundred dollar bill.

Synova said...

Arguing that hunting is only acceptable so long as it's done for food and not done for fun is like arguing that sex is necessary for reproduction and should be done for reproduction only and never enjoyed by well bred young ladies.

Royce said...

It’s probably late in the game at this point, but to answer the original question.

Depends on the 10 year old and depends on who's his/her hunting mentor.

I know some 30+ year olds who should not be allowed to drive or handle firearms.

On a related note… Did you know that there's no age requirement for piloting a plane; none whatsoever, provided as there is a licensed instructor with the child in the aircraft.

Royce said...

Puritanism has many and sundry forms synova.

Revenant said...

I don't think you can really draw a parallel between killing things for fun and having sex for fun, Synova. I think most people have a gut feeling that animal life shouldn't be taken for no reason. Say your neighbor kept bringing a new dog every week. You ask him what he's doing with all these dogs and he says "oh, I use 'em for target practice". Wouldn't you think the guy was a little sick? Mind you, I don't place any moral value on the life of a deer, so as far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with hunting for fun. But it gives me the creeps on a personal level.

The Drill SGT said...

MCG said... this mook decided to use his new toy to recreate one of the Russian Roulette scenes from the Deer Hunter- Got the shock of his short life. Never can trust those damn autos.

basic rule: Understand your technology :)

Middle Class Guy said...

Synova said...
It's the reason we like sex.
It's the reason we enjoy gardening.


It's the reason we like sex in the garden.

Royce said...

revenant,

I'll have to disagree. Sex, like hunting is a pleasurable human activity that’s tied to our nature. Killing helpless creatures for no reason – as in your dog example - is not hunting. It’s pathology. So are rape and sexually abusing a child.

I think the analogy stands.

howzerdo said...

It's a rare post that makes me want to respond twice. I was raised in a rural mountainous area, my mother grew up on a farm, and I never had any illusions about how food was made.

I am a vegetarian for philosophical and health reasons. I used to eat meat, and becoming a vegetarian was a process and a decision that I struggled with for many years. I grow as much of my own food as possible using organic methods, I am opposed to factory farming and I am not ashamed to say I that I believe in animal rights. Obviously I don't hunt or fish or own livestock that will wind up on a dinner plate. I post my land and do not allow hunting on it.

(I do have two hounds, and yes, they are wonderful companions :-).

These are my personal beliefs and of course it would be lovely to live in a world that shared all of my philosophies, but I never judge others on these issues or advocate for my beliefs to be imposed (except for especially abusive instances such as dog fighting and humane transport). To be honest, I'd rather skip posts that detail the joys of killing or gutting animals.

However, I have a much greater respect for those who hunt and fish or work a small farm than for people who seem to believe meat appears magically at McDonalds or the supermarket. I know there are trophy hunters out there, but I have never met one and I know a lot of hunters. I own a pair of antique antlers myself and I'm sure whomever killed that deer ate the meat.

My brother does not hunt for sport and he does not enjoy killing. He is a great shot who just likes venison. Defensive? Maybe. He is also a top notch person who has raised three outstanding children.

It is also true, by the way, that many hunters and hunting and fishing organizations are in the forefront in terms of fighting for conservation and the environment.

And sneering about how best to bond? I think even the bonding label demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the process of knowledge transfer from elders to children.

Middle Class Guy said...

zps,
There are many women entering hunting and the shooting sprots field every year. They come from all walks of life and all social classes. The ones I have met seem to be pretty secure and have their heads screwed on striaght.

There is nothing insecure about it. It is a sport. It provides fun, relaxation, comuning with nature, and best of all, food on the table.

Middle Class Guy said...

zps,
I'd love to see something shoot you in the head from 200 yards away. Never saw it coming...did ya?


Someone tried that once. He was holed up in a top floor vacant apartment in a high rise housing project. We eventually were able to get him- he ran out of ammo.

Let's just say he will never play the piano again and tap dancing is no longer his forte.

Synova said...

"There are many women entering hunting and the shooting sprots field every year. They come from all walks of life and all social classes."

The best natural shots seem to be 13 year old girls.

Seriously.

Synova said...

"It's the reason we like sex in the garden."

I just ordered a subscription to the magazine "Garden and Gun."

Middle Class Guy said...

synova,
Garden S.W.A.T. is also a good mag. Rifles and Roses is pretty good too. But one of the better ones, in that it is more erudite, is the English Shotgun Gardener. Outdoor Life is planning a garden section next year.

Revenant said...

Sex, like hunting is a pleasurable human activity that’s tied to our nature. Killing helpless creatures for no reason – as in your dog example - is not hunting. It’s pathology.

I'm not sure by what standard a deer qualifies as anything other than "helpless" when its opponent has a rifle. What's it going to do, climb up in the tree and wrestle the gun away from you?

As I see it, there are three steps here:

(a): Stalking the animal
(b): Successfully targeting it
(c): Killing it.

Steps (b) and (c) still exist in my "using dogs for target practice" scenario. The only thing it doesn't have is the stalking part, where you actually have to work to get close enough to the animal for a kill shot. But if that's the fun part, the part that taps into our innermost nature the way sex does... then why do you need step (c)? Just sneak up on the animal and yell "boo". Or photograph it, instead. Unless you need it dead because you plan to eat it or stuff it or use its carcass for research... why kill it?

Trooper York said...

The most famous hunting story I know was when Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford and Billy Martin all went hunting on this farm upstate one fall weekend. The guy that owned the farm was a friend of Mickey’s and while they were unloading their stuff into the outer building, he pulled Mickey aside. He asked him for a favor. He said he had an old mule that was blind and suffering and on it’s last legs. But he had raised him from a foal and couldn’t bring himself to put him down. So he asked Mickey if he could shoot the mule before he went out hunting. Mickey said sure no problem. But he decides to play a joke on Billy and Whitey. He goes over to the mule takes his gun and shoots it in the head. Whitey and Billy go “Holy shit, Mickey, what are you doing?” Mickey sez “This jerk doesn’t want to let us hunt on his farm so screw him.” Well Whitey started pissing and moaning and saying “Mickey, we’re gonna get in a lot of trouble. George Weiss is gonna have our ass over this. What were you thinking?” So Mickey cracks up and tells Whitey what was going on. And they both start laughing their ass off. But then Whitey goes “Hey where’s Billy?” They hear six quick shots. Billy comes running out of the barn and jumps in the car. “Come on lets get the fuck out of here. I just shot all of his fucking cows.”

And that is just one reason why Billy Martin should be in the Hall of Fame.

Synova said...

http://www.amazon.com/Garden-Gun/dp/B000O1PKOG

SGT Ted said...

Well said above Synova.

This post seems to be getting vortex-y.

Theo Boehm said...

Not all hunting is slaughter.  Here, for example, you see the Worst Hunter vs. the Most Stupid Deer.
The most that happens is that some pieces of metal get driven into the dirt at 1800 f.p.s.

Most of the time when incompetence meets stupidity, the results are worse.  Much worse.
But there's no need to start off on the Administration in this thread, is there?

TMink said...

Long thread, and I did not wade throug it all.

In my work, I get to know a lot of 10 year olds. Some are absolutely mature enough to hunt while some others are not. Some 18 year olds are not mature enough to hunt.

Leave it to the parents, require their supervision below a certain age.

Trey

Synova said...

"This post seems to be getting vortex-y."

Yeah, and that's even when I missed the opportunity to make a crack about eating what you kill when someone tried to bring abortion into the conversation.

Synova said...

(I blame the thought on an earlier reference to Jeff Dahmer... but the timing would have been off, so...)

Trumpit said...

Hunting should be outlawed and anyone caught doing it should be sent to a reeducation camp at Guantanamo Bay. I'm all in favor of torturing them there preferably with electric shock, so they learn what real pain feels like, like what they are inflicting on animals. Btw, I believe cigarettes should be outlawed because I'm sick (literally) and tired of secondhand smoke. What to do with people caught smoking illegally? Send them as well to Guantanamo, not to be tortured, but to blow smoke into the faces of the hunters until they die from asphyxiation. This is not a tongue-in-cheek comment; I mean every word of it.

Middle Class Guy said...

Trumpit,
As a hunter and a smoker I resent your position. If you do not like hinting, do not hunt. If you do not like smoking do not smoke.

But you go beyond the pale. Like the progressive facist that you are, you demand reeducation camps and torture.

Life is about choices. I choose to hunt, smoke, and sleep with women. Those are my choices. If you do not like them, too damn bad.

You can avoid secnd hand smoke. All you have to do is not go to places where people smoke. It is a choice. But I guess you liberal progressives are not pro choice.

I also choose to eat fois gras, own guns, and live my life the way I want. I do not impose my beliefs on others and expect to be treated the same. That is the American way. What country were you raised in?

BTW, I did not realize that the liberal progressive way was reeducation camps and torture. You sound just like the hero of the left FDR.

Synova said...

"I mean every word of it."

Yet obviously recognize it for the unbalanced screed that it is.

Oh, and, you're a vegan, right?

Right?

Theo Boehm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Theo Boehm said...

This guy isn't hunting in the middle of the night, but firing his flintlock musket, which makes a great photo.  Gives a whole new meaning to the term "muzzle flash."  Reminds me that there is an aesthetic side to firearms that some people appreciate and others don't.

The picture is mislabeled as "Tom Firing his Shotgun..."  This mistake is corrected in the comments, as you can clearly see the flash from the pan and the ramrod.  No modern firearm that. The photographer, despite her ongoing photographic celebration of rural life, apparantly knows nothing about guns.  But she's not in the least self-righteous about it.
 
BTW, the photoblog this image came from is one of the most beautiful and striking I've run across.  You owe it to yourself to poke around a bit. 

rightwingprof said...

"The best natural shots seem to be 13 year old girls."

My niece is a crack shot, has been since she was a kid. Her father (my brother, may he rest in peace) was an Army sniper. She joined the Army to follow in his footsteps.

Pogo said...

1. Sorry I missed this one. I used to think like ZPS. I said things, when I was 15, very very close to his statements. I was quite the superior being.

When older, I learned a few things. Mainly I learned that SGT Ted is right, I was wrong, and I was a a liberal Puritan, and stupid as hell. I still feel ashamed about it.

2. Who gives a damn about the writer's strike, when Trooper York has better lines than a month of sitcoms. "Hot dog down a hallway"? Jayzus on roller skates!!

Omaha1 said...

This is a good thread about hunting and bonding. But I don’t think I saw anyone specifically addressing the point about ten-year-olds being at a unique point in their development and socialization. It is the age where children are the most mature cognitively without their emotions being influenced by sex hormones. They can be somewhat worldly-wise and yet still innocent. For boys this phase may last a bit longer but there is hardly a more disagreeable creature than an eleven-year-old girl, childish and sweet one minute, and a deranged harpy the next.

Ten is an age where adults may have a very powerful impact, since a child that age is capable of comprehending and responding to reasoned argument. Their world is no longer as black and white as that of a younger child, and they possess sophisticated thought processes. They are aware of the concepts of sexual morality but are not really affected by them yet. I used to teach Sunday School for that age group and was frequently amazed at some of the things they were able to articulate.

Re the hunting, fishing, outdoorsy lifestyle – if the mother and/or father and/or adult friend or relative enjoys these kinds of activities, and does not share them with the child, it is almost a crime against humanity. My husband and I took our children backpacking from the age of six and it meant so much to all of us. They learned to appreciate the beauty of nature and to be more self-reliant as a result. My father took me hunting as soon as I was old enough to follow him through the woods. Though I never shot anything myself (although I do enjoy fishing, and eating fresh-caught fish), my memories of those times with him are the most vivid and pleasant recollections of my childhood. Ann, I hope that your father took you hunting and fishing as well. Now that I am an adult, one of my greatest joys is fishing with a child.

Trumpit said...

Middle Class Guy,

You need to use some self-restraint and limit yourself to one comment per thread. You are a tiresome bore, and I disagree with 99% of what you say and stand for. Are you confined to a wheelchair with emphysema and psychiatric issues? Do these conditions cause you to be labor your mindless point to the point of utter exhaustion. People like you give open commenting a bad name. You are nothing more than a peeping tom and a pervert. Have a nice day!

Middle Class Guy said...

trumpit,
I do not advocate sending people to Gitmo to be re educated and tortured into complying with your narrow wishes. And mean every word of it.

I do advocate people haveing choices and taking responsibility for their choices. Evidently responsibility is something you lack.

History is laced with people like you. They are called conquerors, tyrants, and dictators. They have been responsible for genocide, disappearances, and the ensalvement of whole populations.

Now, please, go back and play with the pre-schoolers at Kos. If they will let you.

Middle Class Guy said...

trumpit
BTW,
You really should get out of your mother’s basement more often, if she has not locked the door to keep you from civilized society. You would discover that there is a whole world of ideas out here in the real world. There are also real people out here, adults, who may disagree on issues, but do not impose their small minded beliefs on others. Adults, intelligent adults, have the capacity to agree to disagree.

So live in your basement, eat your tofu, breath your artificially purified air, and watch Animal Planet on your little TV. You can even masturbate if you want. Live your pathetic restricted life. The rest of us will just live, love, and laugh at you.

Sir Archy said...

All Piety consists therein
in them, in other Men all Sin.

—Butler

To Professor Althouse.

Madam,

A self-righteous Asperity will neither advance an Argument, nor improve the Publick's Opinion of an Author.  You will commend my Philosophy, when I tell you that, upon reading the Notes of certain of the Groundlings in this, your Theatre of Topicks (as I call it), I did not rush upon the Deer in the Park outside my Window with Gun & Sword.  That I was prevented from doing so by my ghostly State, also fell to me before I made haste to find my Rifle, Powder & Bullets.  They, alas, together with every other Possession I once did enjoy, have long fled my Purview; for I am a disembody'd Ghost, and not possessed of even the modest Powers of Physicality given those Spirits, known in High Dutch as Poltergeists.

The Gentleman whose Brain I haunt, has giv'n me Means of Expression by his Hand upon the Computer (as 'tis call'd); but I have not been able to prevail upon him to engage in any of the refreshing and healthful Exercise I once enjoy'd

I was in my Day, Madam, a keen Equestrian, and I confess that I hunt'd upon my Estate when it were lawful.  My Gentleman is a Town-Dweller, and has neither Horse, nor Gun, nor keeps any Hounds, and so for Exercise must descend to pushing Levers on a Machine in a crowded Establishment & turning a Tread-Mill in the same Place.  That such so-call'd Sport is fitter to the Convicts in Newgate, or a Draft-Horse upon a Pump, need hardly be said.  I am very sorry, however, that in this latter-day World, millions have no other Chance of Physical Refreshment, and so must play the Prisoner turning the Crank.  That there be few Marks these Days, distinguishing Men from Prisoners, is a melancholy Observation that I hope to turn to better account upon another Occasion.

Before I close, Madam, I hope you will not take it amiss if I make a small Confession.  The wretch'd and unnecessary Game Act of my Day disallow'd hunting by any Gentleman with an income of less than £100.  Shameful as it may have been to own it were I alive, there were Years when I fail'd the Test.  I shall not play the Hypocrite upon my Generosity; but for the Sake of Tranquility on my Estate, there were not a few Years when my Tenants grew fat, and I lean.  I kept up Appearances as best I could, and avail'd myself of every Means of Ĺ’conomy.  Among these was riding horseback, in all Weather, from Scotland to London, saving the cost of a Carriage.  I could thus console Myself, saying that what I had miss'd riding to the Hounds and hunting the Stag, I had Recompense by Guineas in my pocket, and Pains in my Body, having had Excercise enough.

Fondly recalling my Years out-of-doors, and hoping that such a Law as the Game Act may never come to your Country,

I remain ever, Madam,

Your humble & obt. Servant,

Sir Archy