January 21, 2008

Bill!



TPM snips together a great clip show... and saves the best for last. My, but Peggy kicks little Doris!

ADDED: Josh Marshall on Bill Clinton:
What troubles me is seeing the man who is in many respects still the de facto leader of the Democratic party, certainly its elder statesman, inject himself as an attack dog into a intra-party contest. I think it's damaging to him and more importantly I think it's damaging to his party.

59 comments:

rcocean said...

As a conservative, I hope we see a lot of Bill in the General election.

Every time we see him defending her, the less presidential she seems.

Joan said...

Doris Goodwin gets on my nerves even more than Peggy Noonan does. In that particular exchange, I agree with Peggy's point -- if Hillary can't stop Bill from popping off at all these campaign stops, what does that say about her? -- but Noonan's speech is so overblown I find myself gritting my teeth even when she's on my side. Has she ever been concise? Why use one adjective when a half-dozen will do? I'd send her a copy of the The Elements of Style, but I'm certain she wouldn't take my meaning.

Birkel said...

The Clintons aren't worried about the Democratic Party except to the extent it allows them to achieve power. That is the be-all and end-all of the Clintons. Narcissism is never pretty when it is so blatant as most people learned about 10 years ago.

That Marshall seems surprised is comical at best.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Noonan's really is a fair point. Took some of these pros long enough to figure it out. Probably too late to make any difference now.

rcocean said...

I can see why some People dislike Peggy, she can be maddenly indirect and vague at times. Here however, she crushes Doris, that Clinton lapdog, with her reply. Just beautiful.

If Hillary can't control Bill, we should all just take a breath and think about what that means.

George said...

Peggy Noonan, a Reagan operative, criticizing the Clintons...

I am shocked!

George Will, right-wing commentator, criticizing Bill Clinton...

Unbelievable!

Bill Kristol, a Quayle man, chastizing Bill Clinton...

Astonishing!

Katrina vanden Heuvel, a member of the Committee to Draft Ralph Nader in 1992, with bad things to say about the Clintons?

I just cannot believe it.

Then there's Rahm Emmanuel asking Bill Clinton to hush up.

Now why in the world would a Democrat from Chicago, Illinois, want that?

rcocean said...

Yeah, we get it "George" you're a liberal democrat and Republicans are bad.

Thanks.

Roger said...

Bill Clinton continues to drag the office of President thru the mud when he takes on his James Carville persona. A shame. The office of president emeritus deserves better. Clinton is fast approaching the Jimmah Carter model of ex president.

Good for Josh Marshall to make that point.

L. E. Lee said...

I am a very partisan Democrat and I am very active within my county and state party here in Wisconsin. I worked on the 1992 Clinton campaign and attended the inaugural in 1993 after he won.

Bill Clinton made hypocrites of us all ten years ago. What he did was unbelievable. He had the right wing coming after him on suspicions about his personal behavior and what did he do? He arranged blow jobs from a starry eyed nineteen year old. If he needed to stray outside of his marriage he could have done what most people who are high profile in Washington D.C. do. Was there not a discreet ambassador's wife he could tryst with?

Instead, Bill Clinton thumb his nose at the progressive cause and the country as a whole and chose an unbelievable selfish path that still blows my mind to this day.

Over the last ten years I am unaware of Bill Clinton ever sincerely apologizing either publicly or privately for how he placed his own selfish desires above that of the cause of progressiveism and the well being of the country. Instead, he allowed a extremely young woman, Monica Lewinsky, to become a world wide punchline for the rest of her life and for the annuals of history. At least Lewinsky had the class to apologize and remove herself from the lime light. Bill Clinton is truly the joke.

This year it is clear that the Clintons are again offering themselves up as "two for the price of one." I do not think we can even afford the price of one of them.

Voting Democrats and Democratic Party insiders need to fully appreciate that Edwards or Obama are the only viable alternatives. The Clintons are no longer credible.
Lindsey Lee
Wisconsin

George said...

RC--

I'm far from being a liberal democrat.

I watched half of yesterday's "Meet the Press." Half hour of nothing, except rich white people from D.C. working their jaws.

Tom Brokaw said last week he listened to an hour of Rush Limbaugh. Great research, Tom. Very impressive.

Another pundit had been to S.C. where he/she had talked with "conservatives." Another talked with "blacks" in S.C. Wonder how many each one had meaningful conversations with? Was it a day trip? Did they stay a luxury hotels?

This issue is great for Obama, as it directs negative attention away from him, making him look above it all. He has zero executive experience...at anything. He's an empty vessel people are pouring their hopes into. With the Clintons, at least we know what they're full of...

Experience.

Jim said...

The sure-fire way to tell if and when Hillary's campaign has decided that Bill is a detriment: she'll go back to calling herself Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Middle Class Guy said...

Birkel said...
The Clintons aren't worried about the Democratic Party…


Over the weekend, the LA Times- I can’t find the link- had a piece on why Hillary is running as the inevitable one and the only one. The Democratic Party’s rules on delegates allows them to keep a large amount of what are known as super delegates. The number of these delegates are large enough to determine the outcome of the convention no matter who wins the popularity vote. Those delegates had been pledged to Clinton ahead of time. The party is behind Hillary all the way unless Obama is able to surge way ahead of her or she makes a monumental blunder.

Simon said...

I'm not sure that I understand how Clinton's going on the attack hurts the party any more than the business as usual of primary elections. Sure, by tearing up Obama so badly now, he wounds a potential nominee in ways that might make it harder for the party to compete in the general election in the fall if it nominates Obama. But that's what happens in primary elections. It's primary politics as normal.

L. E. Lee said...

In the second paragraph of my above “screed” I wrote “Bill Clinton made hypocrites of us all ten years ago.” To make clear what I meant let me add that less than ten years before there was an out cry against Clarence Thomas making inappropriate jokes about Coke cans in the work place. Obviously, Bill Clinton’s behavior was a hundred fold worse than that.

I still believe impeachment would have been a mistake for the country. But, Bill Clinton’s gross behavior was inexcusable.

I suspect that the Clintons think that those who rallied against impeachment did so as an act of personal support for them. For most progressives that was truly not the case.

Birkel said...

Middle Class Guy,

If you meant to disagree with what I wrote you did not manage to accomplish the task. The fact that the Democrat Party operatives are beholden to Hillary doesn't mean that Hillary is beholden to the Democrat Party.

My point remains: The Clintons are concerned solely with their own ambitions. They are narcissism exemplified.

Meade said...

"...if Hillary can't stop Bill from popping off at all these campaign stops, what does that say about her?"

I think Peggy Noonan has it wrong. Hillary is totally in control. Bill is behaving exactly according to her plans; he always has. When he completes the mission, at the moment of Hillary's choosing, she will sacrifice his pink cheating doughy ass, under the bus it will go, and she will finally stand alone and she will reign supreme -- President Hillary Diane Rodham, Mother of Our Country- The United States of Socialist Republics.

garage mahal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
garage mahal said...

Meade
Iron Hillary's shirt.

:-)

Ralph said...

For more than 15 years, Bill Clinton has been the best thing to happen to the Republican Party since the Civil War. Was it on this site that someone recently linked this old, long, but interesting Reason article about Bill's intellectual powers?

Peggy looks a little ill, or is she becoming a social X-ray?

dax said...

Meade - I think Noonan nailed it.
Whether it's in the Senate or on the campaign trail, people tend to give Hillary much too much credit.
I for one minute don't think that Hillary has total control of her campaign. Bill is 'driving the deal'

Elliott A said...

As related to the blog about unintended consequences...

Had Bush 41 never uttered "Read my lips, no new taxes" the Clintons would have gone away. Bill would have lost and usually losers do not get another chance. No Bill, no Hillary. I have a dream...

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

she will finally stand alone and she will reign supreme -- President Hillary Diane Rodham, Mother of Our Country- The United States of Socialist Republics.

Wow! Meade. Cut back on the caffeine! I mean, really...

Middle Class Guy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dust Bunny Queen said...

I'm not sure that I understand how Clinton's going on the attack hurts the party any more than the business as usual of primary elections

Simon. I think it is several issues.

By Bill taking the limelight and putting himself as the central figure in her campaign he:

A. Diminishes her claims that she is a strong woman with experience and can be the President of the United States on her "own merit".. Basically he is making a mockery of her ability to stand up for herself against other Democrats. How can she hope to stand on her own against the Republicans or hostile world leaders?

Are the spouses of the other candidates so out front of their husbands? Can you see Ann Romney or even Elizabeth Edwards doing such attack dog pony shows?

B. Reminds us all of the unsavory aspects of a Clinton previous Presidency. Whether you agree or not about the Starr investigation it just brings up bad memories... Do we want to be in that kind of national soap opera again? Sometimes deja vu is not pleasant.

C. Most importantly. By Bill being the attacker on Obama it takes away the touchy issue of a black man attacking a white woman in a political campaign. Bill has now made "himself" the target/bad guy as a white man attacking a black man running for office. Obama can say things about Bill and in ways that he would never consider saying about Hillary.

The man vs woman thingy was already a delicate issue. Bill has now made it even more about race being the White Establishment guy attacking the Black Minority guy. How do you think this is going to play with the minority vote. Not in the Clinton camp's favor for sure.

And finally. The spectre of Bill Clinton taking over control of the White House by proxy thereby creating a Presidency that is unconstitutional. The confusion. Just which of these Clintons is in charge? Will it change from day to day?

reader_iam said...

Go, Peggy!

Middle Class Guy said...

Birkel said...
Middle Class Guy,

If you meant to disagree…

I agree with what you said. The article was just added ammunition. The speculation was that Hillary would not run unless she was guaranteed those delegates. She is ruthless in the quest for power. She got the guarantee. She is the party’s choice. For now.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Outstanding comment, DBQ! BTW, it seems to me (BWDIK?) Obama blew yet another opportunity today with his pretty mild criticism of Bill Clinton. As you say, going after him as the designated attack-dog would help Obama greatly.

peter hoh said...

The Clintons always held a commanding lead among the superdelagates, IIRC. Obama could still get the nomination, but he has to generate significant momentum through the rest of the primaries. A knock-down, drag-out fight helps the Clintons.

Should Clinton get the nomination, I look forward to seeing her beaten by John McCain.

rcocean said...

George, if your point is that the some of these pundits are predictable, out-of-touch, members of the DC-NYC axis, welcome to the club.

For example, I have no idea why Will and Kristol are chosen to appear. I assume its because both write for establishment Newspapers and are "reasonable". As for MTP panel, Noonan was the only heavy hitter - I dont' care what Evan Thomas, Tom Brokow or Andrea Mitchell thinks. Was Keith Olbermann unavailable?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Should Clinton get the nomination, I look forward to seeing her beaten by John McCain.

I look forward to seeing her beaten like a rented mule even if it has to be with McCain

The other problem that the Democrat party is going to have by Bill intruding himself into the campaign is that it allows the Obama supporters to bring even more to the forefront Black and other minority issues, as we have seen in Nevada with the culinary workers who are mostly hispanic and other ethnicities. Bill has allowed the opening for Obama and his proxies to really start beating the race/discrimination drum. You saw what happened with just a simple remark on Hillary's part and the over reaction by the standard race baiters like Sharpton, Jackson etc. They reigned themselves in somewhat because of Hillary's gender. No such luck with Bill others especially since Obama will not be able to control the rhetoric from some of his proxies.

A big big portion of moderate, blue collar working stiff Democrats and Southern Democrats especially are going to be turned off by this race baiting. Also the Democrats stance on illegal immigration just isn't ringing any bells with their working class base. You know, the guys who are losing their jobs by being undercut by illegals.

And frankly....like it or not just because someone votes with a "D" doesn't mean that they are not going to vote with their prejudices in the privacy of the voting booth. Too much emphasis on race and the backlash is only going to hurt the Democrat Party.

Simon said...

By the way, this all reminded me to head over to ABC News and watch the video of this week's round table (I was on the road and missed it). Is it just me or is Katrina van den Heuvel an unbearably obnoxious and obvious shill? You might as well go the whole hog and have John Edwards on. She does not play well with others.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

No, Simon, Katrina does not play with others, especially her inferiors, and everyone is her inferior, except maybe Noam Chomsky. But he's a god, so that doesn't count. Is she really shilling for Edwards these days? You know what Russ Feingold said about Edwards...

Balfegor said...

What troubles me is seeing the man who is in many respects still the de facto leader of the Democratic party, certainly its elder statesman, inject himself as an attack dog into a intra-party contest. I think it's damaging to him and more importantly I think it's damaging to his party.

Says Marshall of the man who delivered Congress into the hands of the Republicans for the first time in like 40 years, in 1994. Of the man whose signature policy achievements -- forcing poor people off welfare, signing NAFTA, signing the Defense of Marriage Act, and kicking the drug war into overdrive -- were all achieved over the backs of his Democratic "allies."

Why on earth would it surprise him that Clinton I is willing to walk all over the Democrats again?

I'm with Birkel -- this is kind of funny.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

There I part company with you, DBQ - Obama definitely does NOT want to beat that drum and has tried jsut about everything possible to avoid it. He KNOWS its a loser for him. Banging on that sure as Hell isnt going to get him any more Latino votes, and he didn't have to bang on it to get Black voters to "come home." What he had to prove was that he was viable and he did that in Iowa & NH.

(BTW, at least one of the two unions you mention have a history of "progressive activism" at the top that has not been supported by the rank and file at the bottom. I imagine the other is the same way.)

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Peter: I was thinking of putting $100 on Romney to win the nomination. Maybe I'll have to reconsider. When is Florida voting again? *LOL*

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Yo! Peter:

The Clintons always held a commanding lead among the superdelagates, IIRC.

Of those that are declared, yes. And why not? Almost all of them owe their careers to them: gave them jobs in the Clinton Administration, found them jobs elsewhere, campaigned for them or their candidates, and raised millions upon millions of dollars for them, too. Why should they behave otherwise? (I ask rhetorically.)

Obama could still get the nomination, but he has to generate significant momentum through the rest of the primaries.

Do you still think so? Because of the large numbers of absentee voters, and the 24 primaries/caucuses on a single day (Feb. 5), I think it may be too late.

A knock-down, drag-out fight helps the Clintons.

No. It doesn't. Only helps the GOP.

(BTW, did you know that McCain cannot lift his arms above his head? His wife has to comb his hair. Never read that before - was in a relatively sympathetic article about him.)

Simon said...

Randy - she's really not attractive enough to get away with that kind of act. In either sense. If you're stunningly beautiful, or if you have that kind of personal gravitational attraction - idiosyncrasy, charisma or otherwise - that captures and captivates, or if you're conspicuously and incisively perspicacious (or better yet, if you're all three), sure, one could get away with that kind of act if so desired. But Katrina? Not so much.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Obama definitely does NOT want to beat that drum and has tried jsut about everything possible to avoid it. He KNOWS its a loser for him. Banging on that sure as Hell isnt going to get him any more Latino votes, and he didn't have to bang on it to get Black voters to "come home

I doubt also, that Obama wants this to happen. He is much to astute of a politician to try to make this part of his campaign.
If you re-read my post you see I say Obama supporters and other people that Obama can't control are beating this drum.

Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on which party you are rooting for, the "professional race baiters" on both sides see openings that have been presented by Bill Clinton that they want to use for their own advantages. They can't attack or support Hillary in some of these areas, but they can and will attack Bill. The Dem Party insiders know that this is going to drive a wedge into the party solidarity. This is why they are irritated with Bill for his narcissism allowing this opening.

Middle Class Guy said...

Rocean said:
Was Keith Olbermann unavailable?




His owners took him to the vet for his rabies and distemper shots.

XWL said...

With presidential term limits, a tendency to pick youthful nominees (not always, but I think for the foreseeable future, most presidents will be in their mid50s or younger in their first term), you have ex-presidents who can look forward to potentially 40-50 years of ex-presidency.

Bad presidents can be good ex-presidents (Hoover comes to mind), and bad presidents can be horrible ex-presidents (Carter comes to mind).

The ex-president Bush has been a great ex-president, even with the extra tricky position of being the father of a president. Bill Clinton should not be campaigning for his wife, Pres. Bush didn't campaign aggressively for his son, and that was the right decision.

Terminal limits, rather than term limits would solve this problem of what to do with ex-presidents, but I don't think we are quite ready as a people to go to that extreme.

Larry said...

I see on "Ace" that Bubba has taken thr "chill" advice--slept through a MLK speech.

Trooper York said...

Many ex-presidents have very useful and honorable careers after they leave the Oval Office. William Howard Taft was of course the Chief Justice, and John Quincy Adams served in the House where he was one of the chief voices in the move to abolish slavery. Herbert Hoover invented the vacuum cleaner and Millard Fillmore opened the string of rock and roll ballrooms that have endured to this very day. However the greatest contribution made by an ex first Lady Dolly Madison, who as we all know invented ice cream.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

... and cupcakes, trooper, don't forget the cupcakes!

Mutaman said...

I hadn't seen Peggy in awhile but boy is she aging rapidly and badly. You'd think she'd stay off national TV.

Trooper York said...

That was her niece Little Debbie.

Trooper York said...

Of course Dolly Madison’s family was full of interesting characters. Her sister Sara Lee
Payne (Dolly’s Maiden name) was a scandal and a caution. She posed for sexy woodcuts for the farmer’s almanac which had her buxom breasts falling out of her night shift. Thus the concept of cheesecake was born.

John Lynch said...

It's funny that a lot of liberals are shocked at Bill Clinton, but conservatives see nothing new. I guess it depends on whether you are on the receiving end.

2008- the schadenfreude election. Even if your side loses, you can enjoy watching the other side suffer. The Democrats tear down a the best black candidate ever, and the Republicans self-destruct five different ways. And there's always the Ron Paul nuts to laugh at. What a great year to be an independent. Too bad I'm not...

Trooper York said...

Dolly’s Madison’s great, great, great, great grand nephew Oscar was a divorced New York sportswriter who was famous for being the platonic roommate of a homosexual photographer named Felix Unger. Mr. Unger did not realize he was homosexual because it was 1970 and homosexuals had not yet been discovered. However his interest in show tunes and his two rare clumbers were a dead giveaway.

JackDRipper said...

The voters don't care what this Echo Chamber of White media blabbermouths think.

Speaking of blabbermouths, notice the oratory gifts of this guy. Obviously inherited from Coretta.

I wonder if Obama's handlers can spin this to Obama's advantage.

We all have a need to dream........

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/33364.html

Trooper York said...

Mr. Unger was always intrigued by the Madison family’s long and storied involvement in the desert industry. Oscar loved to brag about the various deserts and pastries that had been invented by the Madison clan, and was generally insufferable on the topic. Mr. Unger decided to invent his own tasty snack and in 1971 created a new desert. He baked a long yellow tube shaped cake filled with cream, that he named Twinkie after the Filipino house boy who had been his nanny when he was a child.

Revenant said...

Back in 1996, Democratic candidates complained that the Clintons were sucking up too much of the available donor money building a huge war chest for the Presidential campaign. The health of the party as a whole has never been a priority for them.

Trooper York said...

Mr. Unger finally embraced homosexuality after he met the love of his life in the famous Italian Chef Enrico Boyardee. Felix always considered himself the better gourmet, but he was very fond of Chef Boyardee because he liked it in the can.

Trooper York said...

The Madison clan has been one of the enduring success stories in American History. Their name has of course been memorialized through out our history. Madison Avenue in New York has always been associated with shoddy and deceptive advertising that bilks the hard earned money of the masses through sophisticated and misleading advertisements. Madison is also the name of a nondescript college town in Wisconsin which is famous for its cheese festival and faculty members who are so out of touch with normal Americans that they refuse to blog about American Idol. It is a shame how the name of Madison has fallen so low. Dolly who as a woman of the people must be rolling in her grave.

Simon said...

Trooper York said...
"Many ex-presidents have very useful and honorable careers after they leave the Oval Office. William Howard Taft was of course the Chief Justice...."

And not a bad one, either - to my recollection, he's credited as the prime mover behind getting the court's own building, pushing Congress to pass the cert act, and of course, in his downtime, he wrote Myers v. United States.

Trooper York said...

His most famous dissent was of course in Oscar Mier vs. Boarshead in which he postulated that his bologana was spelled with a second name of M-i-e-r which is the landmark case in trademark law.

Ralph said...

Trooper, did Felix's Prince Albert get stuck in the Chef's can?

Trooper York said...

No, but there was rumors of a misplaced oso bucco.

Randy (Internet Ronin) said...

Congratulations, Trooper! Your stories are far more interesting than the Democratic Gladiator-wannabe slugfest going on tonight. Its taking longer than planned to rearrange the furniture. WOnder if one of them threw a chair at the other.

Meade said...

"The campaign has settled on a new strategy: Turn Bill loose. "



Okay, all my smarty pants head-in-the-sand detractors upthread, have it your way. Just don't come crying to me a few years hence as you are being led away to put in another long grueling 14 hour shift washing and sorting genetically engineered ginsing (for export to China) on the People's BioAgritronic Health Collective 49780PPP.

Take it up with President Rodham's press secretary, Chris "Had Balls" Matthews.

And may God have mercy on your gullible little unconscious ids.