November 13, 2006

"The sad fate of George Allen's A-list advisers."

From TNR. Poor Ed Gillespie:
[CHRIS MATTHEWS: Let me ask you this. The macaca thing, I think that's what started all this. ...

How do you explain that? Coming up with a word used as an anti-black term in North Africa years ago. ... He just made up a word that we know can be traced back to North Africa where his mother came from? Do you believe that, that he just made up the word macaca out of nowhere?

GILLESPIE: Well I know that he calls his finance director Jabba. I don't know why, and I don't know where that comes from.

MATTHEWS: Jabba the Hut.
Poor Mary Matalin:
TUCKER CARLSON: Wait a second, Mary. ... [T]he Allen campaign has beat Jim Webb over the head with this piece he wrote. ...

MATALIN: ... [W]hat was offensive about that was the language that was used. You know me, Tucker--I am no raving feminist here. But any man that ever says, in any context, or professes to know something about any woman's horny dreams, is not somebody that I want representing me or even in the same room with me.
Ouch.

49 comments:

PatCA said...

I saw another strange Hardball this weekend--or maybe I dreamt it. Chris and the usual gang were telling us what the government leadership thought going into the elections. Not conjecture. They knew! Perhaps the last person on the panel, a fumbling Dan Rather, really has discovered that frequency, Kenneth.

And chortles aplenty for the spot in which Iraq now finds itself. Hilarious.

johnstodderinexile said...

I wrote about George Allen's racial weirdness and its likely impact on his staff on my blog some weeks ago. He went to my high school, and I witnessed a truly bizarre and offensive racial incident that Allen instigated, one that was completely consistent with everything else that came out. I thought it was shocking that a guy who was always sort of a mini-celebrity because of his father -- thus his actions would gain particular notice -- would go around trying to deny words and deeds that took place in front of thousands of witnesses who would be sure to remember them.

So, now that he's lost, he's left a trail of embarrassed loyalists who will have to deal with having defended this head case for the rest of their careers -- when he knew damn well that he was sending them out there to deny the truth.

Truly, Webb's was the sweetest victory of election night.

Timothy said...

But any man that ever says, in any context, or professes to know something about any woman's horny dreams, is not somebody that I want representing me or even in the same room with me.

I take this to mean James isn't very good in the sack.

Telecomedian said...

Here in Northern Virginia, a lot of Republicans who were convinced that Allen would win are anguishing over the whole campaign. They keep looking for reasons he lost - the macaca comment, the racist remarks, questionable actions.

What they fail to point out is that Allen simply was not a compelling candidate. Webb did a much better job of distancing himself from poor statements in the past than Allen did.

NSC said...

I take this to mean James isn't very good in the sack.

Thanks for making my Coke Zero spew on my keyboard, bud.

troutjacki said...

John:

Where do you live because I thought Allen went to high school in California. Are you from California?

What ever George Allen's youthful attitudes may have been I suspect that Mr. Webb would have held racist beliefs in his youth.

Webb is a proud redneck from Southwest Virginia and grew up when Jim Crow was still in force in the state. I am sure his feelings to black Americans was hardly charitable.

His sanctioned attacks on both Harris Miller's and Allen's Jewish background is clear evidence that he still holds his youthful racist and anti-semitic attitudes.

Mortimer Brezny said...

Well, an artist is only so good as his inspiration...

Mortimer Brezny said...

...so cut James Carville some slack

johnstodderinexile said...

Where do you live because I thought Allen went to high school in California. Are you from California?

Yes. I went to Palos Verdes High School, class of '73. Allen was class of '69, so he was the starting QB the year I was a freshman. His father was coach for the Rams, and their house was on my paper route.

What ever George Allen's youthful attitudes may have been I suspect that Mr. Webb would have held racist beliefs in his youth.

That is the weirdest defense of Allen I've heard yet. 'Without any evidence, let's assume his opponent was a racist too.' You also forget that Allen has not owned up to "racist beliefs in his youth." He's denied that he ever was a racist or did anything racist.

Webb is a proud redneck from Southwest Virginia and grew up when Jim Crow was still in force in the state. I am sure his feelings to black Americans was hardly charitable.

I'm not from the south, nor have I ever lived there, but I think this is poppycock. Unless you can document something specific to Webb, I'd be careful making those leaps.

Whereas I can personally attest to Allen doing a shocking racist stunt -- covering my school with vicious anti-white graffiti on the morning of a big game against a school from a primarily black area, with the clear intent of arousing racial hatred on the part of our fellow students. Allen was forced to apologize for it on the school intercom. Everyone I know who attended PV High that year recalls this.

This is why I was stunned when allegations of this nature came out, that Allen sent out surrogates to deny them. Not to excuse them as youthful indiscretions, as you would do, but to deny that they happened.

I can't imagine you believe that lying was the right way to handle this issue.

troutjacki said...

John:

Seems like you forgot to deconstruct my comments about Webb's anti-Semitic pamphlet that he used against Harris Miller in the primary and the attacks on Allen's ancestry that were conneced to the Webb campaign.

I can't find the quote be I do recall that in Born Fighting Webb says that the Scots-Irish are drawn to the "fighting" professions the way Jews produce lawyers. That is anti-semitic stereotyping if I have ever heard it. He seems to overlook Commodore Morris Levi USN, a master in riverine warfare; or MG Muarice Rose, the highest ranking US officer to die in combat in Europe during the Second World War or RADM Maurice Hirsch, who was cited for bravery aboard the USS Lexington at the Battle of Coral Sea to name just three. (
Above everything else Webb is a nativist and a self-defined redneck. He is Buchananite to the core. I think racist generally goes with anti-Semitie and nativeist. Don't you agree?

AJ Lynch said...

John:
The class of 69 would have graduated before you (class of 73) began your freshman year.

Just saying check your dates again.

AJ Lynch said...

And I have to add that Larry Sabato coming out and saying people he knew at UVA claimed Allen used the "N' word in college was so lame and unfair to Allen. Because, it is not right to stand up and cry "hearsay evidence" but not have the balls to back it up with some facts.

And I am not a big Allen fan but right is right. And John you have just done exactly what Sabato did and that is not fair to Allen either. So, give us the dirt I mean facts.

corporate law drudge said...

Allen was in my (and Larry Sabato's) class at Virginia, so I suspect that like us he graduted from high school in 1970.

HaloJonesFan said...

troutjacki: Wow, that's...interesting. So Webb is from the South and that's reason enough to assume that he's a racist and a bigot? Gosh, no stereotyping there...

Shawn L. said...

Nitpicking geekery: That's "Jabba the Hutt" with two "T"s not one.

johnstodderinexile said...

AJ,

You are correct on the dates. The incident occured in the fall of '69, so that's why I made that mistake. Allen graduated with the class of '70.

I've given you "the facts." I can accurately characterize the racist grafitti--because I saw it and it was shocking. I can accurately characterize Allen's apology -- because I heard it. My recollections have been backed up (since I blogged about them) by several old friends who recall the incident the same way I do (the only factual dispute being whether it was before a football or a basketball game. I recalled it happening during football season but one other person says it was basketball season. It's a difference of perhaps two months.)

Sabato's allegation was disputed because it was second-hand hearsay. And if that was the only allegation, I'd completely agree with your rejection of it. But the most convincing allegation (to me) was made by the ex-wife of Allen's rugby coach in Virginia, who joined her husband at practices and games and heard Allen repeatedly and relentlessly use the "n" word, and finally confronted him on it. He dissed her, and she recalls being heartbroken because she was a fan of his father -- by that time, coach of the Redskins -- and hated to think that Allen was learning this at home.

As for the alleged anti-Semitism of Webb...I don't think you've got enough to back that up. It was mischievous of that reporter to raise Allen's mother's heritage during the campaign. But Allen's responses, including the infamous "my mom loves pork" statements, were revealing of his character.

I've looked and can find no reference to the alleged antisemitic pamphlet against Harris Miller. According to a lengthy article I did find in Washington Jewish Week (http://tinyurl.com/yaxhum), Harris Miller endorsed Webb, and encouraged the Jewish community to support him. The story fails to mention any anti-semitic attack on Miller, which would certainly seem like a strange omission in this newspaper.

troutjacki said...

Halojonesfan:

I assume nothing. The evidence I use comes from Webb's own adult words and actions.

When the cartoon flyer attacking Harris miller used Der Sturmer imagery to portray him I, like many conservatives, passed it off as being hypersensitive but when the business with Allen's mother came into play it was pretty clear that Webb has shown animosity toward Jews. His comments, if I remember correctly, show the same prejudice. You know, Jews are all shyster lawyers and not good fighting men like a good southern rednecks.

I actually have "worked" for Jim Webb. I was on OPNAV staff when he became SECNAV. Everybody thought he would be better then John Lehman who was viewed as an amateur meddler. When Webb left 10 months later it was good riddance. He had proved to be a self-centered adolescent who hurt the Navy.

By the way, the Confederacy was much Jewish friendly the Union Army. Lee always granted leave for Jewish soldiers to celebrate the holidays. Grant and Sherman made it very difficult for their Jewish soldiers to practice their religion.

johnstodderinexile said...

I choose to remain optimistic about Webb. I doubt he's perfect, and I'm in a position of authority he might be a total prick, which is a stereotypical characteristic of the Scots-Irish. :) Nonetheless, Webb is part of a mini-wave of pro-defense center-right Democrats, a trend that comes, historically, just in time.

I mean, let me ask you. How do your friends of OPNAV feel about Rumsfeld? Are any of them glad he's gone?

troutjacki said...

John:

Here is the ad:

http://card.wordpress.com/2006/08/16/james-webbs-anti-semitic-campaign-fliers/

Perhaps you should read someting beside the WaPo and the NYT.

troutjacki said...

John:

No.

AJ Lynch said...

I had heard about the controversial (and many said anti-semitic) Webb ad many weeks before the election but I don't remember if I read it in the Post or the NYT (LOL).

I think the Post may have been too busy writing its 99th story about Macaca.

johnstodderinexile said...

Trout,

Actually I searched Google and Google News. Thanks for the link. Your case is still weak. This flyer is offensive -- no question. It's obviously meant to play on both anti-semitic and economic nativism.

But did Webb draw it? Did he approve it? Did Webb ever make any comment that would have encouraged anyone to think he, himself (not some labor union cartoonist) blamed Jews for outsourcing? Miller apparently didn't think so in June, when the Times-Dispatch story ran, and didn't think so when he endorsed him.

But it's worth watching. The whole phenomenon of economic nationalism is worth watching. Other ethnic groups obviously have been more prominent targets, but if there are people out there blaming Jews for outsourcing, that should be opposed just as fiercely as the stereotyping of Mexicans, Indians, Chinese, etc.

But how does this incident offset what we know about Allen? If Webb's office was festooned with Nazi paraphernalia, as Allen's was with Confederate and Jim Crow souvenirs, this story might've gotten more traction. As of now it is a one-off expression of another person, not Webb.

Anyway, the campaign's over. Apparently you think your guy got a raw deal. Join the club. A lot of losing candidates felt the media was unfair to them. That's what happens in campaigns. The difference is, I think Allen's political career is finished. No one is going to fund another campaign for that guy. He's been found out, and from what I can tell, the right wing is glad to be rid of him.

LarryK said...

I don't have any quotes handy, but pick up a copy of "Born Fighting." Jim Webb is a proud son of the Confederate South - he defends his ancestors who fought for the Confederacy, named one of his sons for Robert E. Lee, and I even recall a few words in defense of Nathan Bedford Forrest who I'm sure you know was a Confederate officer who started the KKK after the war (my memory could be faulty here though, but I'll check the book tonight). The record on Jim Webb's pro-Confederate sympathies is crystal clear, unlike Allen's or any other sitting Senator.

For the record, I thought the macaca thing was absurd - using racial code words that are so coded, they may be a slur in French, or then again maybe not. I always thought what he was really doing was making fun of the guy for being foreign, so he just picked kind of the first foreign sounding name that came to mind. Not especially noble, but if this is what qualifies as racism today it shows how far we've come.

johnstodderinexile said...

Do you guys not see the difference?

James Webb: Wrote about his pride in his confederate ancestors in a book, and never disavowed it. Expressed sexist attitudes toward women in the military. Owned up to it, and explained why he changed.

George Allen: Wouldn't admit what the word 'macaca' meant to him. Got spokespersons and surrogates to deny past episodes of racial slurs.

If Allen had handled 'macaca' by saying, "this was something I grew up hearing my mother say, and it just slipped out. I realize it is offensive. I'm sorry," and handled the various N-word episodes by saying "When I was young, I was not the man I've since become, and I said and did some things that I regret, including all the things alleged," he might still be senator.

(As an aside: Unlike Webb, Allen had no family or geographic connection to the Confederacy. As we've established, he went to high school in California. His dad was from Michigan. His mom was from a North African colony. His affection for big confederate flags was adopted. One has to ask why. It's clearly different from claiming a family legacy of military heroism, which is all Webb was doing.)

The Jerk said...

By the way, the Confederacy was much Jewish friendly the Union Army. Lee always granted leave for Jewish soldiers to celebrate the holidays. Grant and Sherman made it very difficult for their Jewish soldiers to practice their religion.

Traitors in defense of slavery, sure, but hey, at least they were nice to Jewish soldiers!

Shanna said...

His affection for big confederate flags was adopted. One has to ask why.

I’m southern and I get the whole “Yay, the South Rocks” sort of attitude some people have (which I think comes more from being made fun of frequently outside of the south and in tv/movies for being southern. (witness the above comment by the jerk about Lee and such being “traitors”). It creates some of that need to display pride in your heritage.) For the most part, I see the whole Confederate flags on pickup trucks as more a symbol of Southern Pride than racism (with some exceptions).

But I definitely agree with this statement. I am very suspect when I see someone from, like, Massachusetts who owns a Confederate flag or other such paraphernalia. Because it’s not southern pride you’re sporting there, bub.

Balfegor said...

On the Macaca thing, I initially thought the argument for its being a racist slogan was persuasive, and Allen's use of it consequently shocking. But then I googled it (in the middle of a thread here, actually), and now I'm kind of dubious that it actually is a racist term in the formerly French bits of North Africa, where his family came from. For example, see this (apparently Tunisian) blog post. All it says about "Macaca" is:

Cette polémique s'ajoute à une autre puisque notre cher gouverneur a traité un des volontaires de son challenger de MACACA (mot qui ne veut rien dire en anglais mais qui ressemble étrangement à macaque).

So that certainly suggests that macaque might be racist . . . but "macaca"? Not really. Even if I search "macaca" with racisme, all I get is a measly 61 hits (limiting to French language); these seem to consist of pretty much nothing but Francophones commenting on the Allen situation. Contrast that with the n-word and "racism," where you get half a million.

What's more, with racist terms of art, "almost" doesn't really cut it -- "Niger" isn't a racist term, but add another "g" and it is. "Niggardly" isn't a racist term either, but lop off that last syllable and it is. So "macaque" being close to "macaca" doesn't count for much, as far as I can see.

Certainly Allen's subsequently explanations (with things like "mohawk" and whatnot) were not particularly, ah, plausible -- in any event, that he was mocking the volunteer and that to do so was uncouth are not exactly deniable -- but the original epithet doesn't seem to be an actual racist term of art in North Africa. If it is one, it's apparently so obscure it's known only to specialists.

So I'm no longer convinced that Allen was expressing his inner racist. He was just being rude. Which is bad, of course, but not exactly a disqualification for high government office.

troutjacki said...

John:

I won't go and get Google citation you can check the WaPo site yourself but you might want to read the ombudsman's article in Post the Sunday before the election. She admitted that the Post "over did" the maccaca and the racist stuff but so what. In other words, the Post smeared George Allen and failed to mention all sorts of negative things about Webb. He really is opposed to the current policy on women in the military and would close down the Naval Academy rather then admit women. He still feels that way. His apologists claimed he changed his mind and point to his actions as SECNAV. However, Webb made those changes under orders from the White House and the SECDEF. It was one of things that led to his resignation. I happen to more or less agree Webb on the issue but I am simple bureaucrat and follow orders.

Ask yourself the following two questions. If Webb and Miller were in a Republican primary do you think that the Post would have ignored the campaign brochure? How do you think the Post would have reported the Allen ancestry flap if he had the D after his name and Webb had the R? I think you what the answer is. Webb would have been hounded out of the race.

Webb did approve of brochure and chalked it up as unthinking and insensitive. That’s BS. He knew exactly what he was doing. Same thing happened with the Allen ancestry. You have to believe the Webb campaign orchestrated the entire episode. .

Cedarford said...

JohnStoddardinexile - Interesting story. That Allen did some dumb things in the past isn't an issue - it's how he reacted to revelation of them - dumbly - in the present. And added other dumb faux pas to the voters judgment. IMO, the guy's toast.

troutjacki - I can't find the quote be I do recall that in Born Fighting Webb says that the Scots-Irish are drawn to the "fighting" professions the way Jews produce lawyers. That is anti-semitic stereotyping if I have ever heard it. He seems to overlook Commodore Morris Levi USN, a master in riverine warfare; or MG Muarice Rose, the highest ranking US officer to die in combat in Europe during the Second World War or RADM Maurice Hirsch, who was cited for bravery aboard the USS Lexington at the Battle of Coral Sea to name just three.

Well, you can always add exceptions to any working general rule in anything - but the value of general rules, even in areas to ethnicity - do make it inevitable they will be used. Jews in the Diaspora generally did avoid military service. Part of the surprise of the world about Israel's early battles was Jews did make good soldiers once they applied themselves to that field rather than the professions.

But if you wonder what country has the highest number of lawyers per capita? Surprise, surprise! It's Israel.

In Webb's case, he is correct on Jews in the US military. Rare in the enlisted ranks. Exceptionally rare in the Vietnam Era Draftee ranks. Rare in the officer ranks - above exceptions noted or a unique bird like Rickover - until you get past line command officers into officer specialties like JAG, the medical corps, procurement officers, lawyers serving as Pentagon schmoozers, influencers in areas outside practicing law.

I don't see your criticism as any more than you disapprove of Webb being a straight talker stating the military facts. Scotts Irish do serve in higher levels than most ethnic groups, Jews among the lowest levels. Rates of participation of Southerners, Mormons, blacks, New Englanders, Filipinos, Swedes all have been binned and analyzed for various studies or recruiting efforts.

Same with Webb's observation that anyone who says females and combat are good fits, is stupid. Bad news for women's advocates that believe women "deserve" special forces slots - but the truth. And very refreshing in an America whose military has been victimized and weakened on occasion by PC - especially the Left-leaning Democrats. If Webb is the return to the legacy of Democrats like Nunn, Jackson, Russell, Moynihan, and Stennis - thats good for the country.

troutjacki - By the way, the Confederacy was much Jewish friendly the Union Army. Lee always granted leave for Jewish soldiers to celebrate the holidays. Grant and Sherman made it very difficult for their Jewish soldiers to practice their religion.

It is not surprising that the Confederacy was Jewish-friendly. Their finances were under Judah Benjamin, and (still a serious area of black-Jewish friction) Jews prominent in the slave and cotton trade were strong financial backers of the South. Not just here, but European Jews in Europe. Thus Confederate commanders had every reason to be supportive of Jews and not get into the "hanging the warprofiteers and leeches" dialogue Grant did with Jewish camp followers and provisioners who he thought were ripping off his Army.

BTW - Interesting show on the other night on Judah Benjamin financing Confederate bioterror attacks (The Yellow Fever Plot) and arson terror plots in the latter phases of the Civil War.

troutjacki said...

Cederford:

I can see where you stand by your statement which is extremely ignorant. The number of Jews who have served in the Armed Forces throughout our history is quite large given their relative numbers in the population. My father was a pre-war regular and when they started calling up National Guard units and integrating them into the force he got assigned as a regular NCO to a unit of the New York National Guard. These men were volunteers and about half of them were Jewish.

I personally know many Jewish military personnel in my daily work. Jews are principally urban and middle class which is the group of the general population that is under represented in the military. If Jews are underrepresented it is not because they are Jewish but because they come from the class of anti-military culture. During WWI and WWII Jews got drafted like everybody else so they served in proportion to their numbers.

Prior to the Second World War Jews were not so middle class and you will find that many jointed the military for the same reasons that anybody else would do it. Times were hard and military offered three squares and cot plus a steady paycheck. Opportunities were quite limited.

Be careful because you sound like the Nazis in the early 20’s who talked about how the Jews stabbed the Army in the back The truth was just the opposite. One Hundred thousand Jewish Germans out of a total of 900,000 served at the front and 38,000 died in combat. That was a higher rate then the general population.

The partisan moderate said...

johnstodderinexile, the fact that you had difficulty finding the pamphlet, is evidence of the generally free pass the Webb campaign received. The Washington Post ombudsman admitted that their overall coverage was biased for Webb (of course after the fact).

While, I have no idea if the George Allen high school and college incidents were true, I do find it odd that people just came forward now. He has been in public service for a long-time and now all of his sudden, people decided to say what they allegedly knew for years.

Webb's record on race which was barely examined was less than ideal to say the least. He previously called affirmative action "state-sponsored racism" which likely would have been the kiss of death for any Republican politician. He has since conveniently modified his position to support affirmative action for blacks and poor whites from apalachia. Webb could not deny that he might have used the n-word in the past.

While Allen may have been and may still be a prick, he didn't and almost no one deserves to receive the character assination that he had to endure. He was called unfairly a racist, a self-hating jew, and other names throughout the campaign. The question the TNR reporter referrred went far beyond "rude", it was "did you spit on your first wife".

The bloggers on sites like raising kaine (which was Webb's campaign nets roots) called Allen really dispicable names, one which Webb never denounced. The Daily kos referred to Allen on numerous occassions as "macacawitz" playing on his recently discovered jewish heritage, which was a pretty dispicable slur.

Then Webb in his victory speech had the nerve to claim he ran a clean campaign and won on the issues which was ridiculous as once you got past his opposition to Iraq, he really had few ideas. Furthermore, for him to claim he ran a clean campaign is ridiculous as he was the benefit of one of the nastiest campaigns in recent memory by his subordinates. One in which he never seemed to acknowledge or denounce.

The fact was Macaca combined with the allegations against Allen lost him the race. Allen was leading by a sizable margin before the Macacca incident. Allen, may be a prick, but he was a good and popular Senator and he would have won if the campaign focused on the issues.

Sorry to go on a rant but I am still really annoyed about the conduct of the Democrats in this campaign and the mainstream media's outright bias in reporting in this campaign.

The partisan moderate said...

Also, please note that the Macaca slur was used by the French to refer to North Africans. Allen's mother was a Tunisian. So why would he knowingly use a term that insults him? It would be like a black person calling a white person the n-word and then being told they were racist. I don't where he would come up with the word but it is higly unlikely that he would knowingly use a word against someone on camera that was actually insulting his heritage.

johnstodderinexile said...

Of course you don't know me, have no reason to believe me, and might think I'm a Democratic plant. Fair enough. But if you think I'm an authentic human being with a specific life history, then I can assure that the high school incident occurred exactly as I described it, because I was there.

You do raise a good question, however. Why didn't I tell this story before? I was tempted to do so, many times. However, I held back because I had no knowledge of any other racist acts by Allen into which the act I witnessed fit contextually. I figured, well, this is a pretty incendiary episode, and by publicizing it, I might ruin Allen's career. My sense of fair play held me back, even though I wasn't a fan of Allen's politics.

But when the macaca thing opened up the floodgates for other witnesses to tell stories about Allen in other locations that were so close to my own experience, I figured I should at least blog about it, because the other stories lent credibility to mine, and vice versa.

I found out later that my post was about six months after the New Republic described the incident -- I hadn't seen that article.

Palos Verdes is an upper-middle-class to upper-class community. Back in 1969, it was almost 100 percent white, with a smattering of Asians, and not even that many Jews. (Now, it's far more diverse.) It was in no way a "redneck town." What racism existed was of the smug superiority variety, rather than the hatred and fear variety. A minority might get blackballed from a tennis club, a drunken party guest might blurt out a racial epithet, but nothing would ever happen that might make a black person feel physically in danger. That's another reason Allen's action was so memorable. It was like, This thing happened here??? It was such an overt act, and seemed designed to foment violence. That's just not the kind of thing that would happen in snooty Palos Verdes. Certainly, I can't think of anything like it that has happened since.

The other thing that made it seem so especially bizarre for Allen to act this way was the high regard his father seemed to have for the black players on the Rams, and vice versa. The Rams' owner fired Allen after the '67 or '68 season, but the players revolted and demanded (and won) his return. Some of the most influential stars on that team were black players like Deacon Jones and Rosie Grier. Wherever Allen got his attitudes, it wasn't from growing up with George Allen the football coach.

Cedarford said...

moderate - Also, please note that the Macaca slur was used by the French to refer to North Africans. Allen's mother was a Tunisian

You obviously miss the point. His mother was from a white French settler family. Macacca was a term of derision (or affection) used for the darker skinned native Tunisians, Moroccans, Algerians.

So why would he knowingly use a term that insults him? It would be like a black person calling a white person the n-word and then being told they were racist.

So because his mother was French settler your analogy is flawed. The term doesn't apply at all to her. Analogous to claiming a White S African is free to use "nigger" or "kaffir" to describe blacks since they are African themselves and so cannot be racially hostile to native africans.

That said, Allen had many good moments as governor and senator, and he deserved better than the situation Bush had him in or the campaign he himself ran.

Cedarford said...

Troutjacki - Without getting into an extended debate, my statement supporting Webb's contention that Scotts Irish were over represented in the military, Jews under represented...is factually accurate.

It may be factually inconvenient for you and lead to to call other names and recite personal experience to dispute the facts. But the truth is the truth.

The partisan moderate said...

johnstodderinexile, I never said I didn't believe you, instead I said "while, I have no idea if the George Allen high school and college incidents were true, I do find it odd that people just came forward now." I thank you for your explanation of why you came forward now.

Cedarford, you are incorrect and I am actually correct. From the web, "Allen's mother, Henrietta Lumbroso, comes from a prominent Sephardic Jewish family from Tunisia."

His mother's family came to France from Tunisia, not the other way around. Unless you are now suddenly claiming that Sephardic Jews in Tunisia who have lived there since being expelled from Spain are somehow white settlers from France.

troutjacki said...

Cedarford:

Jews represent less then 2% of the US population. Since it is a aging population the number of Jews of prime military age is probably on the order of 1%. I assure you there are at least 14000 soldiers, sailors and airman of Jewish decent in today's military. So your assumption of under representation is certainly incorrect. There are few Jewsish members of the military because there aren't many Jews. But how would we know such a statistic because the military doesn't compile them.

Your perception is an anti-semetic perception. Case closed.

Anonymous said...

Actually, his mother's family came to Tunisia originally from Portugal and then Italy after the inquisition. It's a pretty fascinating family, whose community ties reach back to the Medicis. It's a shame he didn't know more about it as he was growing up.

Moreover, Webb's campaign literature in his primary referred to his Jewish opponent as the anti-Christ of sourcing.

Nice.

I also saw Richard Clark casually say on Bill Maher's Real Time, like it was a big joke, in Virginia, these days, Allen's known as Senator Macacawitz. This was after one of Webb's people was let go from his campaign for making the same comment in a forum where it was picked up by journalists. Obviously it was a big joke at their campaign headquarters. Especially given the creeping alignment of the left with anti-semitism these days.

Anonymous said...

I wrote:

Moreover, Webb's campaign literature in his primary referred to his Jewish opponent as the anti-Christ of sourcing.

Whoops, that was supposed to say the anti-Christ of outsourcing.

Webb himself referred to it in a debate and he used it on a flier as well, archived here.

The Jerk said...

(which I think comes more from being made fun of frequently outside of the south and in tv/movies for being southern. (witness the above comment by the jerk about Lee and such being “traitors”).

That's not making fun. It's a simple statement of fact. If taking up arms against your country isn't traitorous, then what is?

hdhouse said...

i love the fresh smell of hypocrite in the fresh post election air.

mary matlin had no problem working in the same general office of scooter libby who penned such thrilling passages as little girls being turning into whores by having sex with bears so they would loose the inhibitions.

how quickly the republicans lift their little noses and move past their own piles.

troutjacki said...

hdhouse:

err, it's not the Republicans who are hypocrites on this, it is the Democratic Party's chorus in the MSM that is guilty. They all savaged Libby's book for the section you site. Webb's sexual passages are called literature. I will ask question of you that I did of John.

Suppose Webb had an R after his name. Do you thing the MSM would have just said "oh, that's good literature?" You also know the answer to that one as well. They would have gone after him with both barrels.

In American political culture the Democrats are above both written and unwritten laws while it is culturtally illegal to be a Republican. Webb, who is a Buchananite knew that he could not run as Republican so when he found a reason to run for office he jumped at the chance to run as the Democratic candidate in Virginia. You can be a Klan member (Byrd) and still win praises from the MSM if your Democrat. A Republican saint is still and evil Republican.

Cedarford said...

The Jerk - That's not making fun. It's a simple statement of fact. If taking up arms against your country isn't traitorous, then what is?

The Jerk needs to learn a few basic legal definitions.

Treason is taking up arms against your country or encouraging others to or betraying your country by spying or sabotage or certain acts of wartime sedition..for a foreign power.

Rebellion or insurrection is rising up against the real or perceived tyranny seeking revolutionary change, autonomy, or certain denied rights that are being fought for.

LarryK said...

In case anyone is interested, on p. 232 of Born Fighting Jim Webb assesses Nathan Bedford Forrest as "the unparalleled Nathan Bedford Forrest, a semiliterate who proved to be a master of maneuver and manipulation and who defeated every West Point general he faced." It's not extensive but is literally unqualified praise - no mention of the fact that this is the same guy who started the KKK which terrorized Southern blacks for 100 years.

Now, if George Allen or any other Republican lawmaker had such nice things to say about this character, do you he or we would ever hear the end of it? I know Webb was only praising his military skills but what an author chooses to omit is significant. And isn't a fondness for the creator of the KKK a wee bit more consequential than whether Allen is sending out coded racist messages to Virginia's French speaking Tunisian community?

I don't know whether Webb really is a racist (my gut tells me he's more of an advocate for his own particular ethnic group, which is bad enough) but there is much, much more on the record to support this conclusion for him than for Allen, and in the end Allen lost the election because the media ignored Webb's racial baggage and exaggerated Allen's.

Balfegor said...

And isn't a fondness for the creator of the KKK a wee bit more consequential than whether Allen is sending out coded racist messages to Virginia's French speaking Tunisian community?

I don't think that particular cite is particularly damning -- after all, his subject (based on the title) appears to be how his glorious Scotch-Irish forbears were good at fighting, not how his race happens to be an exemplar of racial tolerance. And noting someone's brilliance in battle doesn't mean you have to turn 90 degrees and mention unpleasant battle-unrelated things he's done elsewhere.

If Webb has a race problem -- and I think he has a mild one, mild enough that it doesn't really bother me -- it's that he quite plainly overflows with race pride, so much that he wrote a book about it. It's fine of course, for people to take pride in their ancestry -- certainly I would be a rank hypocrite if I tried to condemn it -- but in the US today, race pride when you're White comes off as the unacceptable kind of racism (viz. the kind White people have) so it counts as a kind of problem. On the other hand, running as a Democrat seems to be enough to dupe the yuppies, so maybe not.

hdhouse said...

LarryK said...
In case anyone is interested, on p. 232 of Born Fighting Jim Webb assesses Nathan Bedford Forrest as "the unparalleled Nathan Bedford Forrest, a semiliterate who proved to be a master of maneuver and manipulation and who defeated every West Point general he faced." It's not extensive but is literally unqualified praise - no mention of the fact that this is the same guy who started the KKK which terrorized Southern blacks for 100 years.


ahhh Larry K, forrest's reputation as a tactical genius was and is still widely regarded. union generals were in awe of him. his abilities were brilliant and that was Webb's point.

i invite you to look at history as a set of facts that you can either love or hate but they are still facts and how you can link some swill to Webb and people who thought that his stuff was pretty good reading and then question the fact - irrefutable fact - that forrest was a tactical genius is beyond me.

he is studied at west point still.

what is your real issue? that scooter libby's "girls and bears" isn't universally admired because he is a soon to be republican felon or that it is just garbage and mary m. showed her true colors (and so what..she is paid to do that..who cares) as to what she will put up with and what she won't stay in the same office with?

you may abhore the new democratic wave. that's fine. democrats have abhored the bush wave for 6 years. .. but don't confuse fact with belief - please.

LarryK said...

House

My real issue is pretty simple - all the focus on "macaca" and Allen's racist past by the media, and by Webb, was ludicrous. As I said, I doubt Webb is a racist, but if any Republican said anything even vaguely positive about the founder of the KKK do you really believe it wouldn't be a campaign issue? Trent Lott was bounced out of his leadership position for saying even more vacuous things about Strom Thurmond.

And by the way, I don't "abhore" the Democratic victory, I welcome it. One week later and look what the Democrats have put back on the table - Hillary's health care reform, tax increases (Robert Rubin), immediate withdrawal from Iraq (bonus points for bringing back George McGovern to deliver the message!), and Henry Waxman and John Conyers speculating about who they should investigate first. Not to mention the first interparty/ideological fights for leadership positions. There's nothing like a couple years of Democratic rule to remind the public of why they voted against them in the first place..

The Jerk said...

The Jerk needs to learn a few basic legal definitions.

Treason is taking up arms against your country or encouraging others to or betraying your country by spying or sabotage or certain acts of wartime sedition..for a foreign power.


"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." U.S. Const. Art. III, s. 3.

Cedarford should stick to Jew-baiting and leave the law to the trained professionals.

hdhouse said...

LarryK said...
House

Trent Lott was bounced out of his leadership position for saying even more vacuous things about Strom Thurmond.

my my my LarryK...are we forgetting that it was a fellow republican, bill frist, who sought the leadership position and engineered the removal? are you forgetting that democrats had nothing to do with trent lott and that it was strictly a GOP matter? are you forgetting that Mr. Bush gave his active consent to the action?

How is Trent Lott and that issue remotely connected to anything on the democrat side of the senate? How?

Why don't you guys slay your dragons first before you try and play in the reality arena?