October 27, 2023

"Last Saturday in a small foundry, a man in heat-resistant attire pulled down his gold-plated visor, turned on his plasma torch and sliced into the face of Robert E. Lee."

"The hollow bronze head glowed green and purple as the flame burned through layers of patina and wax. Drops of molten red metal cascaded to the ground."

I'm reading the New York Times version of the story of the melting down of the Charlottesville Robert E. Lee statue.

The Washington Post had its piece up first, with similar ornate prose — "dissolving into a sludge of glowing bronze.... a flash of bluish white light and orange sparks... seven long gashes into Lee’s severed head" — and I blogged it yesterday here

I avoid re-blogging something I've already blogged, but that precept doesn't save me from blogging the NYT piece, "The Most Controversial Statue in America Surrenders to the Furnace."  The WaPo article was written by reporters who observed the cutting and melting. The NYT's writer, Erin L. Thompson, also a first-hand witness, is a professor of art crime who has written a relevant book — "Smashing Statues: The Rise and Fall of America's Public Monuments" (Amazon link/commission earned).

So, though I am loath to read any more prose featuring deep gashes and glowing globs, I'm interested in Thompson's take on the ethical problem of destroying a work of art. We're talking about a statue that was already removed from its original position of honor in a public space, that could be moved somewhere else, perhaps to private grounds, to a museum, or into storage. In this case, a choice was made to melt the statue — Robert E. Lee and his horse — with some idea of using the bronze to cast a new sculpture, conveying the anti-Robert E. Lee point of view.
[A]nthropological theorist Michael Taussig would call a public secret: something that is privately known but collectively denied. It does no good to simply reveal the secret — in this case, to tell people that most of the Confederate monuments were erected not at the end of the Civil War, to honor those who fought, but at the height of Jim Crow, to entrench a system of racial hierarchy. That’s already part of their appeal. Dr. Taussig has argued that public secrets don’t lose their power unless they are transformed in a manner that does justice to the scale of the secret. He compares the process to desecration. How can you expect people to stop believing in their gods without providing some other way of making sense of this world and our future?...

Desecrating religious monuments does not destroy the faith of the believers! It fires them up. It also fires up their antagonists, enhancing their faith. Think of the Taliban's destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas. It doesn't stop anyone from believing anything. It increases the intensity of belief all around and drives people further apart.

How can you expect people to stop believing in their gods.... Either leave people to worship as they see fit or offer them something else to inspire belief. Your displays of destruction and hostility are not the best of America.

But that's Taussig. Let's proceed with Thompson:

Covering this story over the past few years, I’ve come to realize two things. First, when a monument disappears without a ceremony to mark why it is coming down, a community has no chance to recognize that it has itself changed. (Ideally the ceremony is public, but because of safety concerns, the melting I attended was not.) 
Second, if you are outraged that something’s happening to your community’s heroic statue of Lee, you’re not going to be any less outraged if the statue is moved to some hidden storeroom than if it’s thrown into a landfill. So if all changes, large or small, will be resisted, why not go for the ones with the most symbolic resonance?

Thompson missed all the people who care about art and history and bemoan destruction. The question that begins "So" is based on an "if" that isolates a segment of those who would not melt down the sculpture and proceeds as if there are no other opponents. If there are no people— or no fine people — who oppose the meltdown for any reason other than to worship Lee as a hero, then the side with all the fine people are entitled to do anything they want. This fallacious reasoning makes it easy for Thompson to give her stamp of approval:

That’s why the idea to melt Lee down, as violent as it might initially seem, struck me as so apt. Confederate monuments went up with rich, emotional ceremonies that created historical memory and solidified group identity. The way we remove them should be just as emotional, striking and memorable. Instead of quietly tucking statues away, we can use monuments one final time to bind ourselves together into new communities....

But there was no "rich, emotional ceremony." The melting was done in secret, conveying a message of shame and fear — fear of the others who were excluded. Do they even exist in this "community" that "we" are "to bind ourselves together into" or is the idea to coerce them into bondage? And how can this be "one final time"? You envision your statement as the last word, that your monument will be the permanent one, but where is the design for this monument? Is there much chance that it will please future Americans more than a statue of a man on horseback?

Lee’s face was the last piece to go into the crucible. Given how often the monument and its ideals were celebrated with flames — from Klansmen’s torches to the tiki torches of white nationalists in 2017 — it seemed fitting for flames to close over the monument....

Violence for violence. 

160 comments:

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

Whatever new statue is created from that bronze will be defaced. The progressives have created that kind of environment.

Donald Trump was wrong when he said there were good people on both sides. The people calling for the destruction of the Lee statue were not good people.

Jersey Fled said...

How many times were BLM’s ideals celebrated with flames?

Big Mike said...

The melting was done in secret, conveying a message of shame and fear — fear of the others who were excluded.

Sometimes Althouse gets it right. This is one of those times.

Levi Starks said...

I’m reminded of the episode of the golden calf and the Israelites in the desert.
Moses commanded that the Calf be ground to dust and sprinkled on the water, and the people forced to drink it.
My doctrinal take being that God wanted to make it impossible for the remains of the calf to be reused in any fashion.
As though having been misused the gold was permanently made unholy.
God did not want any portion of what had been the golden calf to end up in any of the articles of the tabernacle which was yet to be built. Maybe there’s a similar solution for the remains of Mr Lee

rehajm said...

The talking point these were not erected as reconciliation is absurd, this one excluded. Dollars to donuts this one was targeted not only for it's politically expedient geography but so NYT and WaPo could repeat the same false narrative- one the leftie commenters here were quick to parrot...

...and do try remember KKK and Jim Crow bigotry is the Democrats thing but election propaganda season is upon us and the elite in the left need a way to fire up the blacks again. Too early for the leftie violence but not too early to prep for it...

BG said...

Why do I have the feeling that the molten metal will be used to fashion a "modern" statue (that will probably look ugly?) Remembering Lucy.

re Pete said...

"My eyes collide head-on with stuffed

Graveyards, false gods, I scuff

At pettiness which plays so rough

Walk upside-down inside handcuffs

Kick my legs to crash it off"

Dave Begley said...

Ann nails it, per usual, with her comment that this melting was done in secret based upon the made-up claim that there would be right-wing violence.

And notice the reference to the tiki torches. That was fake.

"The way we remove them should be just as emotional, striking and memorable. Instead of quietly tucking statues away, we can use monuments one final time to bind ourselves together into new communities...."

Wasn't the Lee statue removed by a rioting BLM people?

And what "new community" is created by this?

The new statue should definitely be of George Floyd. And I have just the guy to do it: Littleton Alston. Alston is a professor of art at Creighton and just completed a nice piece of Willa Cather that now sits in the US Capitol. He's Black. He's also done Gale Sayers and MLK.

BG said...

P.S. They could have at least saved Traveler.

Kate said...

If the statue had stayed but a plaque had been added that gave historical context to its casting and setting, people would've been educated. I don't want to care about Lee. Now I must defend him and this statue because its removal is so fraught and underhanded.

Dave Begley said...

George Floyd was an abuser of women, felon, drug addict and dealer. Yes, he's the anti-Robert E. Lee.

n.n said...

The burdens of progress are excised with liberal indulgence of transformation. Let them bray. In Stork they trust.

Aggie said...

The title of the piece was a misdirection though, I guess in keeping with the paper's current philosophy on the treatment of facts. How does a mute statue surrender if it's being cut to pieces? Wasn't it (more properly) 'taken to slaughter'?

Maybe the title should have been " "The Most Controversial Statue in America - or we're not the NYT - goes to the Furnace, as MAGA melts down." Since that's the real point of the story, and even there, the NYT has it badly wrong. People don't long for the return of the statue of General Lee because they want the South to Rise Again!, with folks back in chains. They object to the erasure of history - because they know what comes next.

Aggie said...

The title of the piece was a misdirection though, I guess in keeping with the paper's current philosophy on the treatment of facts. How does a mute statue surrender if it's being cut to pieces? Wasn't it (more properly) 'taken to slaughter'?

Maybe the title should have been " "The Most Controversial Statue in America - or we're not the NYT - goes to the Furnace, as MAGA melts down." Since that's the real point of the story, and even there, the NYT has it wrong. People don't long for the statue of General Lee because they want the South to Rise Again!, with folks back in chains. They object to the erasure of history - because they know what comes next.

Amadeus 48 said...

Like I said below, at your WaPoo post, let's put up a monument to St. George Floyd, the greatest man of his generation.

Aggie said...

The title of the piece was a misdirection though, I guess in keeping with the paper's current philosophy on the treatment of facts. How does a mute statue surrender if it's being cut to pieces? Wasn't it (more properly) 'taken to slaughter'?

Maybe the title should have been " "The Most Controversial Statue in America - or we're not the NYT - goes to the Furnace, as MAGA melts down." Since that's the real point of the story, and even there, the NYT has it wrong. People don't long for the statue of General Lee because they want the South to Rise Again!, with folks back in chains. They object to the erasure of history - because they know what comes next.

Dixcus said...

"I'm interested in Thompson's take on the ethical problem of destroying a work of art."

Why not ask the Taliban why they destroyed the Buddah's of Bamiyan.

Exact same vibe.

Please tell me in the history of man when people are doing things in secret, dark rooms - when has that ever been done by the good guys? These people are EVIL and it is past time to rid our country of them.

Sebastian said...

A statue "surrenders," a "choice was made"? No, progs bent on destruction seized the statue, progs chose to erase on more piece of art and history.

Call it the decolonization of American history. Next up: erasing actual Americans. "From the ocean to the ocean," to coin a phrase.

rcocean said...

The Soviet communists, the French Revolutionaires, the Spainish Repubulicans, all destroyed Christian art, and beautiful Christian churches and they all said it was for a good reason.

This is just more of the same. This act of artistic vandalism is somehow cast as good thing. More bizzaro world thinking from our MSM.

If people in Charlottsville didn't want an R.E. Lee Statue they could've given it to some small town or some other museum that DID want it. I'm sure there are quite few small southern towns, or small towns outside the South, that would love a beautiful, free, statue of America's greatest General.

But they'd rather destroy it.

One question is: Why the "passion gap"? why are there people so dedicated and obsessed with destroying a statue that's been there for almost 100 years. And why, OTOH, are there so few people who realize this is just step 1 in erasing our "racist past". which means anything prior to 1965? Or care about art being destroyed for political reasons?

I dunno. It seems like the WASPs either don't care about anything except $$, or they're just beautiful losers.

Enigma said...

Politicians used to talk about welcoming peace, and "turning swords into plowshares." In the cruel spirit of 2023, I expect they'll do the reverse: melt a functionless statue into cannon barrels, gun parts, and swords. Brass/bronze was widely for weapons in the past, even though it's not as strong as steel.

These folks surely want more weapons to destroy the Jews and Hispanic White Supremacists(tm).

iowan2 said...

There is no controversy surrounding these statues.

Only propaganda by a vocal, ignorant few, seeking publicity to keep the donations flowing. The media is more the happy to promote the noise, lacking substance. Because dog bites man fails to generate clicks, but man driving with dog on his car roof, does generate clicks.

Only 5% of the population knows about this, and of the 5% only 1% has any strong opinion one way or the other.

Just 40 years ago "The Dukes of Hazard" was a top rated TV show. fI there was controversy, it was at a level so close to zero, as to be indistinguishable from zero.

Always have to remember the incentives for the media to keep such a story drawing oxygen.

MadTownGuy said...

"Last Saturday in a small foundry, a man in heat-resistant attire pulled down his gold-plated visor, turned on his plasma torch and sliced into the face of Robert E. Lee."
"The hollow bronze head glowed green and purple as the flame burned through layers of patina and wax. Drops of molten red metal cascaded to the ground.
"

Was just the viewing window gold-plated (as is normal), or the whole visor? If it was the latter, it sounds like a ritual.

Gagg said...

Liberals are luxuriating in their Red Guards moment. They are who we thought they were.

Gagg said...
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Gagg said...
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Limited blogger said...

Dude had a 'gold plated' visor? Sounds like something Trump would do.

Jupiter said...

"In this case, a choice was made to melt the statute — Robert E. Lee and his horse — with some idea of using the bronze to cast a new sculpture, conveying the anti-Robert E. Lee point of view."

Why the passive voice?

"In this case, a choice was made, to drag the naked body of the young woman they had raped to death through the streets of Gaza, so that their fellow orcs might spit on it, and ululate in vibrant celebration of their insatiable lust and hatred". And then a choice was made, to call her mother, in Germany, and tell her that her daughter was still alive, in hopes of working some further devilment. Oh, yeah, points of view do get conveyed. Bronze works. Lead works too.

Rich said...

It was Robert E. Lee himself who wanted no statues to the Confederacy, as they would "keep open the sores of war."

There are people who need to debunk their ‘Lost Cause’ myth. The “Lost Cause” of the Confederacy has been portrayed as a noble struggle for freedom rather than what it actually was, a defense of slavery.

While this particular statue was erected in 1924, many of those at the heart of the controversy the past few years were actually erected in the 1950s as a statement of defiance to the burgeoning civil rights movement.

They were not about honoring the past but rather about rejecting the future.

Bob Boyd said...

They did it "in secret", not out of genuine concern, but to push the narrative that we're surrounded by dangerous white supremacists.

How can you expect people to stop believing in their gods without providing some other way of making sense of this world and our future?...

And these genius Progmullahs are so good at that. All you have to do is look at their tremendous success persuading the people of Afghanistan and throughout the middle east to abandon Islam and embrace modern values like women's rights and gay rights.

I just coined a new word there, "Progmullah." What do you think? Apt?

Jimmy said...

"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped." Orwell
Academia, NYT,WaPo,MSM, all understand full well what they are doing.
Unable to deal with ideas, history, or facts, our fine universities have decided to simply eliminate those ideas from our culture.
Our education system, where all this garbage started, is rotten and beyond fixing.
All supported by those equally fine institutions of journalism who produce nothing other than propaganda for their masters.

John henry said...

We're these people ok with the Taliban destroying the giant Buhdas a few yesrs back?

Or was that bad because cultural heritage, world history and all that?

Is one ok and the other bad?

I'm confused

John Henry

Saint Croix said...

Weird how the media reminds me Islam and Communism.

Going into a place, and smashing up the art.

Christians did that too, I think. In the middle ages, maybe?

"Icons" -- they wanted to destroy the icons.

mezzrow said...

The melter and the meltee are both subject to the timeline of Ozymandias.

The statues were built at a time the nation was healing from a great wound. This is a time for tearing those wounds back open for unfinished business and score settling by those who were found peripheral when the statues were first erected. I'd love to see the look on Woodrow Wilson's face when when he learns the history of progressivism in the 21st century.

Talk about your unintended consequences...

RideSpaceMountain said...

Iconoclasm and purity spirals go hand in hand. Have for 10,000 years, and counting...

Bob Boyd said...

He compares the process to desecration. How can you expect people to stop believing in their gods without providing some other way of making sense of this world and our future?

The Muslims and the Christian church accomplished that goal with swords and fire. Jesus accomplished it another way, but look what happened to him. Somehow, I doubt the Progmullahs will choose Jesus' way.

These Confederate statues are not the gods of the people of red America. That is typical Prog projection. Those who ruled us at "the height of Jim Crow" were the Progressives, believers in central planning, white supremacy and eugenics. The Progressives put those statues up. Maybe that's why their progeny hate the statues so much today.

Mark said...

This event - which wasn't even worth a news story - certainly has descended into some kind of lefty porn.

Just an old country lawyer said...

The barbarians are always trying to simplify complex issues for propaganda purposes whether they are beheading statues or babies. When people express revulsion at their ancestors, it's probably safe to assume that the ancestors would be even more appalled at their descendants.

I don't believe that the Confederate monuments and statues, most of which, I think, were erected between 1890 and 1910, were done to celebrate the Jim Crow laws, which had basically been in place since the end of Reconstruction in 1876.

In the years immediately following the War, the white South was too poor to be erecting monuments to itself. They had their lives and an economy to rebuild, and the veterans themselves had little interest in revisiting their pain, humiliation and defeat.

It was their children's generation who developed the myth of the noble Lost Cause, and whose ladies' authors created the Moonlight and Magnolia genre of literature. Finally the economy had recovered sufficiently to afford a measure of tribute to be paid to "the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his gods."

wendybar said...

What Mike of Snoqualmie said...
@ 9:14 AM

The Crack Emcee said...

White America has too many things that are "privately known but collectively denied" for me to worry about them. Because they're just going to deny it. Enough - and good riddance.

I hope Lee will forgive them.

n.n said...

Democrats sequester carbon... copper... babies... their progress under a veil of prose with empathetic appeal.

wendybar said...

I just coined a new word there, "Progmullah." What do you think? Apt?

10/27/23, 9:42 AM

Extremely APT!!!

Oligonicella said...

I'll start off with what I've said before, ethics are nothing more than codified subjective beliefs, not truths.

The ethics here isn't so much about "destroying a piece of art" as it is "succumbing to the edicts of a mob".

You can destroy (and argue the ethics of) a piece of art that's integral to a building.

This is very different.

Still, and with not a rare frequency, you will see these activists wearing a Che T-shirt or sickle and cross.

Those are the ethics to debate.

Oligonicella said...

Mike of Snoqualmie
Donald Trump was wrong when he said there were good people on both sides.

No he wasn't. There are good people left of center. They're just scared. They've seen what the far left does to those who don't conform.

TestTube said...

It will leave a lovely space for a future Donald Trump statue...

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

You had me at the Lincoln address.

Thank you.

n.n said...

Wilson and Palmerism who would surely celebrate progressive liberalisms' choice to reduce, reuse, sequester the Democrats' burden.

Tina Trent said...

The most painful and mocking rewriting of history is the statue of MLK embracing his long-suffering wife, Coretta, in that weirdly sexualized giant sculpture in Boston.

King's serial sexual betrayal of his wife and his sexual abuse of several other women are no longer disputed by credible historians. To create a statue emphasizing this unfortunate aspect of his life, rather than his courageous leadership, seems both perverse and contemptuous of Loretta Scott King, who endured extreme danger both in her home and in her public life. It seems to cement a lie that degrades several women's lives -- and his positive legacy.

What should public statuary be for?

Howard said...

It seems like Jim Crow is cancelled in a blaze of Glory followed by sad Lamentations of an obsolete culture that is gone with the wind. Frankly my dears, I don't give a damn.

Tina Trent said...

Sorry. Coretta Scott King. Sneaky spellcheck.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

You miss the point Althouse. This is about justifying a bunch of small minded elitists doing a victory dance and getting vicarious revenge for slavery.

Because such things have always worked well before....

Breezy said...

Helter Smelter!

Saint Croix said...

It's weird to declare war on the past and try to rewrite it.

The past is dead! All you can do now is lie about it.

Through careful research, we might be able to discover facts about the past that we didn't know before. That's of interest, because we can learn from the past.

But to wipe out history, to pretend like you have traveled through space and time and you are stabbing the bad guys and fixing all the sins, is moronic.

I get the urge. I'm still pissed about Roe v. Wade! I've had more than one fantasy that I'm on the Supreme Court in 1973, throwing a law book at Harry's head. The fucking arbitrary memo, for fuck's sake.

Saint Croix said...

The Democrats used to have this group called Move On. I forget what they wanted to move on from. I remember it as a stupid group, but the idea is pretty good.

Yesterday in Bible study, one of our Democrats was ranting about the president, and how awful he is, the worst we've ever had.

And I told that every generation has awful presidents and feels like this is the worst.

And then, a few minutes later, I was like, "Wait a minute. Are you talking about Joe Biden?!"

And she was like, "No! I'm talking about Trump." And she spouted hate for a sentence or two. And I said, "But he's not in office anymore."

He hasn't been president for two years. Move on!

Roe v. Wade was overruled last year. Move on!

You'd think "progressives" would notice the progression of time. It's okay for me to be stuck in the past. I'm conservative! That's what we do!

Amadeus 48 said...

To blazes with R E Lee...and the horse he rode in on.

Oligonicella said...

Rich:
... what it actually was, a defense of slavery.

American Civil War - 1861.
Emancipation Proclamation - 1863.

The New York Draft Riots occurred in July 1863, when the anger of working-class New Yorkers over a new federal draft law during the Civil War sparked five days of some of the bloodiest and most destructive rioting in U.S. history.

****
Thoughtco.com

Study'n'Learn

****

It was never as simplistic as you present.

Michael said...

Rich. Where are these 1950s confederate statues located. Just one will do.

Lilly, a dog said...

From this woman's wikipedia page:
Thompson publicly commented on a video showing protesters preparing to tear down a Minneapolis statue of Christopher Columbus, saying that, "I'm a professor who studies the deliberate destruction of cultural heritage and I just have to say... use chain instead of rope and it'll go faster."

Dude1394 said...

"Mike of Snoqualmie said...
Whatever new statue is created from that bronze will be defaced. The progressives have created that kind of environment."

This will also be done in secret. Our secret government.

Robert Cook said...

"George Floyd was an abuser of women, felon, drug addict and dealer. Yes, he's the anti-Robert E. Lee."

????

Completely irrelevant.

No one is (or should be) valorizing George Floyd, a chronic but minor criminal. The entire point was objection to the fatally excessive act of a police officer (and the failure of his fellow officers to intervene). This officer had a history of abuse complaints and written reprimands. Those who applaud (or do not feel outrage at) such behavior by law enforcement officers approve by default of such unwarranted abuse by any police officer against any person they encounter. Even if you don't give a shit about "riff-raff" such as Floyd, do you want a friend or family member--or yourself--to be the next victim of such excess police violence?

As for Lee, perhaps we should stop making statues of any and all military personnel of all ranks.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

We let, scratch that, we facilitate Guantanamo’s worst practicing their religion. The religion they say propelled them into the most heinous acts against our country. Find out why we do that and you’ll find out why destroying the Lee statue is not the best way of going about changing hearts and minds.

Make no mistake, this is a clear sign of a people in decline. Those of you so inclined please pray for our nation.

Quaestor said...

If memory serves, the causative bailiwick of this iconoclasm was a political demonstration by young white men carrying tiki torches who were damned as Nazis on account of the tiki torches that weren't used to commit acts of arson in stark contrast to many "black lives matter" demonstration. Let's ask the lynch mob about their opinions regarding Hamas and Israel. That should clarify which side of the Robert E. Lee statue question most resembles Hitler's National Socialists.

Just a bit of historical irony -- in the long conflict between the Philistines and the Hebrew confederacy as given in the books of Judges and Samuel, the Philistines were noted for acts of vandalism against Hebrew shrines and monuments, by which the pejorative philistine entered our language to describe disrespectful attitudes and actions regarding objets d'art. The Philistine center of operations, as it were, was Gaza.

(I've moved this from the earlier discussion to this more later, more fitting one.)

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

In this case, a choice was made to melt the statue — Robert E. Lee and his horse — with some idea of using the bronze to cast a new sculpture, conveying the anti-Robert E. Lee point of view. What, I wonder is the anti-Lee POV?

I'm struck by the fact that Progressives simply do not do nuance. To them it is just a word used to disguise their own evil intentions and excuse their fellow travelers who receive some kind of, almost always well-deserved, light public rebuke. As many pointed out in yesterday's thread, many feel Lee should be honored for his help in reunifying the country after the civil war. Others feel that any honoring of Lee is interpreted as approving of slavery, as Taussig feels that the statue served as a Jim Crow monument disguised as a heroic statue.

All of those contradictory and partially overlapping narratives could have been presented in the statue's new home. But that takes the will of the people in charge to even admit there are different points of view. Progressives no longer brook any dissent. Therefore they cannot acknowledge any other point of view has legitimacy. As a 20th Century conservative living in this 21st one I do not know who has the best description of the meaning behind the sculpture or what the artist was trying to say by creating it. I would prefer to have that context and an intact sculpture presented with well-written explanations exploring all the points of view.

But we know longer live in that world even with the veneer of freedom Americans have. No ours is a totalitarian world where "Charlottesville" as an event can have only one meaning, the one the totalitarians assign it. Just as Trump's statement, ironically about this very statue, "There's fine people on both sides," can now only have the one meaning: he's pro-Nazi. Opposing our totalitarian President who sees Charlottesville the "correct" way, but has never been asked by the media about the actual statue, to my knowledge, is to oppose the state power he projects. To question if banning AR-15's, to put the issue in today's context, and ask if it would have prevented this Army firearms instructor from getting his hands on a weapon and doing the damage he did is to oppose "common sense," says the totalitarian President's spokesmop.

No, Progressives don't do nuance. Because like farming, it's just too much hard work. We've got eggs to break.

Narayanan said...

awaiting what will American Taliban do to StoneMountainCarvings? once they get ahold of F-15 etc.

Ampersand said...

I still wonder about the tiki torches people. Who were they? What were they saying? Why tiki torches? How come they seem to have suddenly appeared, and just as suddenly disappeared? If their cause has a rationale, who is articulating it? Given the centrality of Charlottesville to the Dem narrative of Repub wickedness, you'd think we'd know all about this.

Quaestor said...

Limited Blogger writes, "Dude had a 'gold plated' visor? Sounds like something Trump would do."

Another example of the miserable education journalists receive. Everybody knows something true and accurate, except J-school grads, who know virtually nothing about anything. The Gell-Mann Effect, it's everywhere they tread.

Those visors aren't gold-plated. They're made of gold leaf sandwiched between layers of tempered glass. I own one and use it to observe solar eclipses. Astronauts' EVA helmet visors are similar. They're made from gold leaf sandwiched between layers of optically clear Lexan.

Narayanan said...

Limited blogger said...
Dude had a 'gold plated' visor? Sounds like something Trump would do.
==========
did they fly the yuuuge statue into space to melt down? could have cast it into sun!!

The outer sun visor is made from polycarbonate plastic and coated with a thin layer of gold. This combination gives complete protection to the astronaut.

Rosalyn C. said...

There's nothing quite as infuriating as our current "woke" leaders who encourage stupidity. Have a grievance and don't like a work of art because of how it makes you feel? Well, tear it down, destroy it! They seem to believe it's really intelligent to melt it down and use the bronze for another more inclusive work. Apparently they believe that artists work for free, you just have to supply the material. IMO this is the same philosophy as the rioters at fast food restaurants -- if the fries are cold or it the place ran out of dipping sauce, the obvious reaction is, "Let's tear the place apart!"

In Dallas the city took down a sculpture of Robert E. Lee by another illustrious but lesser known artist, Alexander Phimister Proctor and it was sold at auction for $1.4 million. That is probably a whole lot more than the value of the melted down bronze. Seems to me that's also more respectful of art and a much more positive and productive solution.

It's anybody's guess what a work by the much more accomplished and famous artist, Henry Shrady, sculptor of the Charlottesville Robert E. Lee sculpture, might have raised if sole in auction.

Revenge is priceless, is that the message the city wanted to impart?

We're not even talking about the inherent value of the work of art and preserving that for future generations who won't have an emotional connection or trauma and can just appreciate the form and beauty of it. It's also stupid economically.

Robert Cook said...

I just saw that they are in the process of creating a "George Floyd Square" in Minneapolis. This is ridiculous and stupidly wrong-headed. One can be horrified and rightly object to the abuse or murder by police of a person in their custody who is not resisting--is unable to resist--without turning the police's victim into a "hero" he never was. The only valid response is to decry police abuse of their authority, fatally or not.

Well, most humans are stupid beyond belief; this just perpetuates and proves such stupidity, and is a craven and cheap gesture to mollify those who are (rightly) outraged, rather than take systemic organizational steps to prevent such police misbehavior in the future, the only genuine way to address public outrage to police violence. We have to be able to condemn bad behavior by the police without erasing the bad behavior of their victims.

TestTube said...

Statues are to guide the living, not serve the dead. They reflect the values that society wishes us to emulate, serving as a combination teaching tool, warning, declaration, and yes, treaty.

Robert E. Lee was the hero the South was ALLOWED to have by the North. In defeat, he served as a role model that "good" Southerners were meant to model themselves. The mythological Lee peacefully submitted to the victorious North, penitently and humbly laboring throughout his life to build unity and promote the new paradigm. No inconvenient questions! Just a grandfatherly old gentlemen guiding his followers meekly unquestioning into the future.

Much better to have him in the public square than some troublesome rabble-rouser who might question the new order! Let the local populace raise their own statues, and who knows what sort of ideas they might get into their heads! The South is a big, diverse place, and some of the local yokels might wonder exactly what they had in common with Virginia, after all.

They might seek a third way, and while the large population centers were more or less under control, there was a large rural segment that was not.

But now, Lee is getting torn down. When a statue is torn down, there are two parties -- those who tear down the statues, and those who allow the statue to be torn down. The latter seems to no longer venerate the sadder-but-wiser old gentlemen. And now there is a space to place a new, more relevant figure that espouses different ideas.

Who will that be? Trump? Let us look to the Romans, for they erected many statues. The right-wing talk show host Jesse Kelly posits that Trump corresponds to the Populares, rulers who championing causes important to the plebian masses, but who attempted to work through the system. Other than Julius Caesar (who should not even be considered a populare anyway), the Populares are largely forgotten. Compare the fates of the Gracchi brothers to the current ordeals of Trump.

However, is the Tyrants who foment and exploit chaos to seize power, destroy the old system and create their own to rule autocratically, who get the statues. Julius Caesar was more properly considered one of these Tyrants, but there were many others, and their names we know well -- Claudius, Commodus, Nero, Sulla, Caligula. Who will the future Tyrants be? I don't know. Certainly not any of the current crop of Presidential hopefuls, who show no sign of bucking the system. It may be a Republican, a Democrat, but more probably someone entirely outside the two-party system.

I do not think that those melting down the statue of Lee will like this new person. Perhaps they should not have been so quick to pull down the old statues, and the old order.

Jamie said...

we can use monuments one final time to bind ourselves together into new communities....

This is so close to a Caesar Flickerman take on why the Hunger Games exist that it's almost a parody.

The problem is not that either in this blog or elsewhere in the nation there is a great resurgence of Lost Cause-ism. The problem is that history happened, and the way these forces seem bent on destroying it - tearing down statues instead of adding context, retelling well-documented stories so that intersectionally privileged participants become the real and only heroes, rewriting history books on ridiculous and unsupportable premises because they advance a victimhood narrative (interestingly, autocorrect made that "victorious") that makes them feel morally superior not just to the people of the past but to their dissenting contemporaries - doesn't send the message Our society has grown and changed for the better, but rather We the virtuous are the same as we've always been - but the forces of regressive evil are strong and We Are The Resistance!

Which is a cowardly lie.

(And interestingly again, autocorrect made virtuous "virus.")

Enlighten-NewJersey said...

On June 16, 2021, the city of Newark, N.J., unveiled a statue of George Floyd sitting on a park bench and resting with his arm outstretched. The 700-pound bronze sculpture was erected in front of Newark's city hall. No one can name one thing that man did that would justify this honor. So can we demand the statue be removed from the public's view and melted down for reuse?

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Dude had a 'gold plated' visor? Sounds like something Trump would do.

Just another data point showing the writer's ignorance of life outside his bubble. Welding lenses often have a vapor-deposited metal coating, like aviator sunglasses do. That process is a long way from "plating" of course. But to NYT writers plating, filling, anodizing and coating are all the same: something those people do that doesn't require my limited attention span to understand. Just interchangeable words like "republican" and "Nazi."

Here's a fun fact though: the same Swedish genius who invented the Baby Bjorn infant carrier invented numerous ergonomic items and one was the coolest welding helmet I've ever seen. The visor would automatically raise or lower with a sharp nod of the head via a tiny motor, which was powered by a battery pack charged by a photovoltaic array built into the front of the helmet. The battery was charged by the light from the torch. Then the lens changed from optically clear to standard dark welding glass automatically, triggered by the light of the torch. The act of welding produced enough light to keep the helmet's electronics functioning. Touring the professor's workshop was the most amazing experience I had in Sweden.

Birches said...

Oh brother. They try so hard to be high minded about their iconoclasm.

"Are we the baddies?"

I've been to Stone Mountain. It's interesting how the carvings are there and for the most part ignored. A really good museum curator could redo the area as a snapshot of history, but we can't trust anyone to do a good job so it's probably best to leave it alone.

Oligonicella said...

Robert Cook:
No one is (or should be) valorizing George Floyd

I present to you the valorizing of George Floyd.

Now go talk to those people about their wrong thinking.

Joe Smith said...

Dear Penthouse Forum...

The prose reads like porn for fascists.

Can't wait to see the statues of St. George melted down.

What's good for the goose...

Oligonicella said...

Robert Cook:
As for Lee, perhaps we should stop making statues of any and all military personnel of all ranks.

No.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

If someone owned the statue, they can do whatever they want with it. I don't see the problem. If it was public, then the government of elected officials decided.

I don't live in Charlottesville, or in North Carolina, and I don't care much what people do there. It's none of my business.

Scott Patton said...

That poor horse.

Joe Smith said...

"While this particular statue was erected in 1924, many of those at the heart of the controversy the past few years were actually erected in the 1950s as a statement of defiance to the burgeoning civil rights movement."

All bought and paid for by the same Democrats who were brutalizing blacks in the South with Jim Crow laws, the KKK, and lynching.

So you're saying your people are doing the right thing now?

Night Owl said...

The statue was part of the history of our country. Why wasn't it put in a museum, as part of a display about the civil war? It could have been used to educate people; instead, based on the description given from the two articles, it appears to have been sacificed to the Progressive god of vanity.

Unfortunately, no amount of destruction is going to be enough to purge the demons that haunt these unhappy, angry people. They need to find faith in something other than themselves.

n.n said...

The progress of relativity... first, they came for the babies.

Fandor said...

The sculptor Henry Merwin Shrady, who created the Robert E. Lee sculpture, also did the tri-sculpture memorial of Ulysses S Grant that stands in front of the Capitol Building in Washington DC.
The individuals who gave the go ahead to destroy a work of art by Shrady deserve to be held in contempt for their shameful decision.
Let's post their pictures and names so all can see who these "champions" of Woke politics are.
They need to have their 15 minutes of "fame", if they can take it.

Ironclad said...

How many soggy “In this House we Believe” virtue signaling signs have been regulated to the trash or the back of the garage when the “ blood on the lintels” value of them went to zero? How many St. George of Fentanyl murals have faded away? The present cherished “values” fade quickly - so of course you must destroy the things of the past that might outlive your silly causes.

When will the MLK statue in DC be destroyed? Give it time. Let’s face it - if you are in a strange town and turn onto MLK Boulevard, isn’t your first impulse to get out of that area as fast as possible? That’s the legacy now of the man - more of a warning sign than a inspiration.

Enlighten-NewJersey said...

On June 16, 2021, the city of Newark, N.J., unveiled a statue of George Floyd sitting on a park bench and resting with his arm outstretched. The 700-pound bronze sculpture is erected in front of Newark's city hall.

Michael K said...

No one is (or should be) valorizing George Floyd, a chronic but minor criminal. The entire point was objection to the fatally excessive act of a police officer (and the failure of his fellow officers to intervene). This officer had a history of abuse complaints and written reprimands. Those who applaud (or do not feel outrage at) such behavior by law enforcement officers approve by default of such unwarranted abuse by any police officer against any person they encounter. Even if you don't give a shit about "riff-raff" such as Floyd, do you want a friend or family member--or yourself--to be the next victim of such excess police violence?

Cook waxing eloquent about the drug overdose victim who was NOT murdered by a police officer but who has given us the new model of lynching. The Medical Examiner lied under oath and Cook and his fellow leftists love it.

Jamie said...

The entire point was objection to the fatally excessive act of a police officer (and the failure of his fellow officers to intervene). ... Even if you don't give a shit about "riff-raff" such as Floyd, do you want a friend or family member--or yourself--to be the next victim of such excess police violence?

The entire point? The entire point of months of violence and years of grift and God knows how many deaths in vulnerable neighborhood thanks to the deranged "Defund the Police" "movement" was to protest the actions of a rogue police officer?

And then you undercut your own point, I imagine because you don't actually believe it yourself, by implying that we're all in grave danger from the police. When statistically it is undeniable that even the group were told are most susceptible (and they are, but not because the police are out to get them), young black men, are not in grave danger. Even the criminals among them aren't.

And there is literally no sane person on any side of the question who doesn't oppose police brutality (though there are some who dare to wonder whether the Floyd case was actually an instance of such, under those particular circumstances - but it's beyond the pale even to wonder, isn't it?).

But Lord knows, you'd better replace your avatar with a black square, you'd better post one of those "In this house" yard signs, you'd better parrot the lie that - as one of my son's college friends, a well-to-do Eritrean getting a degree in finance or something like that, said to him, "Being black in this country is a death sentence" (to which my Bernie bro son said he couldn't make any reply, because as a white guy, what could he say?). Because if you don't, why, you must be one of those types who hates black people and poor people and belongs to a lah-di-dah country club where they don't let Jews or Catholics join -

Robert Cook, you've been very... old school lately. What's going on?

Michael K said...

Blogger Howard said...

It seems like Jim Crow is cancelled in a blaze of Glory followed by sad Lamentations of an obsolete culture that is gone with the wind. Frankly my dears, I don't give a damn.


Yes, Howard is happy that the culture that was once America is gone.

stlcdr said...

Oligonicella said...
Mike of Snoqualmie
Donald Trump was wrong when he said there were good people on both sides.

No he wasn't. There are good people left of center. They're just scared. They've seen what the far left does to those who don't conform.

10/27/23, 10:07 AM


And will they vote back in the perpetrators of that fear? Just like in 2020 (sic)?

loudogblog said...

They really missed out on an opportunity to make the stature a teaching moment. It could have been put in a museum with an explanation of who Lee was and what he did.

A lot of museums in the United States have planes, ships, tanks, submarines, ect on display from the people that we fought. They're there to teach about the past, not to glorify our former enemies.

But maybe that is a part of a different time when we people weren't so adolescent about such things.

Michael said...

Rich. Where are these 1950s confederate statues located. Just one will do.

Michael said...

I would be ok with this if promised there would be no replacement statue, no public “art.” Better a graffitied plinth than a new piece of crap created by an “artist” picked by the color of his skin.

TestTube said...

Howard, the salient factor is not that you don't give a damn, but that the demographic that normally WOULD give a damn does not.

Apathy can be more subversive than opposition.

Kay said...

I don’t think it should be destroyed, but agree that the citizens and their representatives have a right to take the statue down.

who-knew said...

Enigma said "Politicians used to talk about welcoming peace, and "turning swords into plowshares"" . And Rich quotes R.E. Lee to show that was exactly how the General reacted to his defeat. The case can be made that R.E. Lee's post war actions were instrumental in preventing it from turning into a decades long guerrilla war. It would make sense to honor him for that but that would require the progmullahs (thanks for the great new word Bob Boyd) to exercise some actual nuance.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

Mike (MJB Wolf) for Speaker of the Althouse blog.

Assuming Supreme Althouse allows it 😉

Cato said...

Appropriate for Halloween; they are but ghouls and grave robbers.

Rabel said...

"Think of the Taliban's destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas. It doesn't stop anyone from believing anything. It increases the intensity of belief all around and drives people further apart."

That's the version we tell the children. A well executed and brutally enforced plan of domination and suppression of resistance will win out over the fairy tales most of the time if those in control have the will and the power.

The Buddhas are down, the Taliban is still standing, and no one stood up to stop the destruction of the Lee memorial.

Narr said...

The statues were erected by partisan Democrats, who wanted to spike the ball after losing the Woah but winning the peace. They were taken down by partisan Democrats, who wanted to spike the ball after winning some elections.

In both cases, it was a pure power play, but that's Dems for ya.

A really lousy statue of Jefferson Davis (a sometime Memphian) was erected in what was then Confederate Park in Memphis in the late 1950s. It was removed when Forrest's statue was, and Forrest Park renamed. Unlike the Forrest equestrian work, it was a crappy work--fitting for a crappy leader.

Dave Begley said...

Robert Cook:

George Floyd died of a drug overdose. The autopsy proved it.

The prior "bad" acts should have been inadmissible.

Chauvin is an innocent man and he was railroaded because of his race.

Earnest Prole said...

Americans are so childlike. Here’s how adults address this issue:

Macron says France won’t ‘tear down statues’ amid anti-racism protests.

“The republic will erase no trace or names of its history, it will forget none of its works, it will tear down none of its statues. We must instead lucidly look together at our history, and in particular our relationship with Africa,” Macron said in a televised address.

The French president acknowledged some citizens still face discrimination because of their race.

“Our fight must continue . . . to fight against the fact that one’s name, address, skin color still all too often reduce the equal opportunities everyone should have,” Macron said.

Abolish the police?

“Without republican order, there is no security or freedom, and this order is ensured by police officers and gendarmes,” Macron said.

Dave Begley said...

Lee's horse, Traveler, has had his grave defaced.

The horse!

TestTube said...

The statue was one of a set of four commissioned and donated by Paul Goodloe McIntire, a philanthropist who semi-impoverished himself with his philanthropy.

McIntire took great pains and expense with the setting of his statue -- buying a city block and turning it into a park. Then donating all of it.

Why did McIntire choose these four subjects for statuary? What was he trying to convey? How did Lee fit in with the other subjects? They were all prominent Virginians, but there were many prominent Virginians who could have been so honored. How did this rather impressive multi-sculpture project fit in with McIntire's other works of philanthropy? McIntire did not commission statues of himself. Why statues to the ancestors of his first (divorced) wife?

Apparently the statue of Lee was considered the finest example of equestrian statuary in the United States.

Was any of this discussed in the article?

Oligonicella said...

stlcdr
And will they vote back in the perpetrators of that fear? Just like in 2020 (sic)?

I don't know if they will anymore than you know if they will. I also don't equate ignorance with "bad".

chuck said...

Foundries are interesting places, I doubt many NY Times readers have ever been in one. That puts the story in with the exotic travel stories.

rcocean said...

"While this particular statue was erected in 1924, many of those at the heart of the controversy the past few years were actually erected in the 1950s as a statement of defiance to the burgeoning civil rights movement."

What an amazing piece of rhetoric. I admire the smear-job. Well done! Leaving aside the statue in question was of R.E. Lee and put up in the 20s. Tell us the following:

First, which statues are "at the heart of controversy"
Second, which statues were "actually errected in the 50s"
Third, why you used the word "50s" when the Civil Rights actually didn't start till Little Rock and late 50s.
Fourth, how you can mind-read the motives of people 65 years ago.
Finally, what is your position of tearing down statues of other slaveowners. Like say, Washington.

Gusty Winds said...

I wonder if Martin Sheen regrets playing Robert E Lee in "Gettysburg".

Wonder if they'll ban that movie like "Song of the South".

Dude1394 said...

"Mike of Snoqualmie said...
Whatever new statue is created from that bronze will be defaced. The progressives have created that kind of environment."

This will also be done in secret. Our secret government.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Lem the misspeller said...
Mike (MJB Wolf) for Speaker of the Althouse blog.


LOL I'm curious what in this thread would elicit your nomination. Was it my story about Olle Bobyer the inventer?

Paul From Minneapolis said...

I have to believe some mainstream liberals can't hide from the shame of being on the side causing this to happen, and celebrating it.

Paul From Minneapolis said...

Howard, at some level where you never go you're lying to yourself.

Real American said...

Those who lived through and fought in the Civil War were far more able to reconcile with the confederates than the current generation of historically illiterate crybullies who seek only to destroy the history they don't understand. They claim they want the "full" story to be told, but really, they want to erase what their tiny little pea brains can't comprehend.

Josephbleau said...

This sad orgy of progporn impresses me as a voodoo ritual or exorcism where a certain type of weak person must dig up the body of his nemesis and defile it. Perhaps they could have sold tickets to pee on it before it was ritualistically murdered. This says more about the government officials than about Lee.

I think most mental illness is caused by a foolish search to find a better past. You find sanity when you realize that you are not going to find one. If you are heathy you look at the good and bad and know it in your mind.

When I drive through a small town north or south and see an old green statue of a civil war soldier I stop and try to understand the times this little place has seen, and how the men of olden times dealt with the national forces that blew them around and forced them to act how they did. We are sure good at judging them are we not?

No one caused more evil than Napoleon, but his grave is a prominent national shrine in Paris. Perhaps the French are more civilized and thoughtful. Hitler was hidden in a vault in Moscow, a powerful totem to be feared perhaps. So it goes, eh.

Saint Croix said...

Rich at 9:41

It's always hard to know people's hearts and minds. Hugo Black was in the Klan and he turned out to be civil rights champion of the Supreme Court in the 20th century.

(Thurgood Marshall asked him to swear him in when he was confirmed to the Court).

Black was my favorite jurist in law school, and he remains my favorite jurist to this day. In Alabama in the 20's, if you wanted poor whites to vote for you, you had to get the Klan endorsement (apparently, I wasn't there). And to get the endorsement they required him to dress up one day and say some shit to them. He had to crawl through the shit to become a Senator of the United States.. You can either despise what he did, or applaud it. It doesn't matter to me.

I personally would never argue, "the ends justify the means," and damn if I would seek an endorsement of a group of terrorists. Black did. And the attacks on him from Republicans -- they tried to derail his nomination to the Supremes -- caused him to be fearless, and relentless. And he developed a jurisprudence ("textualism") to make himself immune to any charge that his jurisprudence was political.

Lars Porsena said...

The very people that celebrate the destruction of the Lee statue are the kind of people that who would never have volunteered to meet Lee and his men across that battlefield in four bloody years of war.

Saint Croix said...

Anybody interested in Civil War controversies should google Stone Mountain, which is like Mount Rushmore, except way bigger.

People who are obsessed with ideas and symbols and want to destroy the bad ideas, want to blow it up.

So, for instance, the SPLC -- which is a corrupt organization now, and people are noticing the Jew hatred -- decided in the middle of the Trump administration to attack the "largest shrine to white supremacy in the history of the world."

(the three people on the monument are Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, and "Stonewall" Jackson).

Now, I grant you it was a horrible waste of money to put up this shrine in the 1920's. "Robert E. Lee is as tall as a nine-story building." Holy shit!

Anyway, it's a bad idea to destroy Stone Mountain. People like the SPLC or the NAACP don't ask questions like "how much would it cost" or "isn't history important" or "do we really want to censor and destroy public art."

Here's the website today. They've got an interracial couple on the front page, which doesn't surprise me, and it's a fun place for the kids.

How can it be fun? Well, the sculpture is what it is. It's three men from the Civil War, on horseback. Parents can ignore the racist history or teach the racist history.

I guess I would just tell people in the realm of ideas and art and ideology -- free speech is important.

Howard said...

I am sure that is quite a pithy comment Paul in Minneapolis however I am sufficiently dense that it passed right through the void between my ears without ringing a bell. Where I never go? 30 some odd years ago I used to hike to the top of Kennesaw mountain almost every weekend. Did you know that so many soldiers on both sides lost their lives that the soil was permanently stained red there.

Craig Mc said...

I can't wait to see the "replacement" torn down and melted. After all, that's the precedent now.

FullMoon said...

If not for the publicity, half the people under 30 would have no knowledge of Lee.

Narr said...

"No one caused more evil than Napoleon."

Really? Show your work.

rcocean said...

Here are descriptions and histories of the four statues commissioned and given to the City and University by Paul G. McIntire mentioned above:

1. "Their First View of the Pacific," the Meriwether Lewis and William Clark Sculpture by
Charles Keck depicts three heroic-sized figures in bronze: William Clark is in the
foreground; Meriwether Lewis is above and behind him; and Sacagawea, the Indian guide,
crouches at their left. The sculptural group is set atop a rectangular pedestal of pink granite carved with scenes from the expedition's travels that is also of Keek's design. The art work was presented to the city of Charlottesville on 21 November 1919.

2. The Thomas Jonathan Jackson Sculpture by Charles Keck portrays a heroic-sized Jackson
riding into battle on his horse, Little Sorrel, in bronze. Keck designed an elaborate oval
pedestal of pink granite with the allegorical figures of Faith and Valor carved in high relief on the front as a special tribute to the revered Confederate general. Paul Mclntire gave Jackson Park, a formal landscaped square adjacent to the Albemarle County Courthouse and bounded by High, Fourth, and Jefferson Streets, for the display of the art work, and the sculpture was presented to the city of Charlottesville on 19 October 1921.

3. The George Rogers Clark Sculpture by Robert Aitken depicts a seven-figure group in
bronze atop a simple trapezoidal pedestal of pink granite also of Aitken's design. Clark is
portrayed in conference with a standing Indian chief who shares the central focus. The statue was presented to the University on 3 November 1921.

4. The Robert Edward Lee Sculpture by Henry Shrady and Leo Lentelli portrays an heroicsized equestrian figure of the celebrated Confederate general in bronze. A solemn and
dignified Lee rides his horse, Traveller, atop an oval pedestal of pink granite designed by
architect Walter Blair that is decorated front and back with wreaths and an eagle carved in
relief. Paul Mclntire gave Lee Park, a formal landscaped square between Jefferson and
Market Streets and First and Second Streets NE, for the display of the sculpture, and it was presented to the city of Charlottesville on 21 May 1924

Robert Cook said...

"George Floyd died of a drug overdose. The autopsy proved it.

"Chauvin is an innocent man and he was railroaded because of his race."


Nope.

Maynard said...

I wonder if Martin Sheen regrets playing Robert E Lee in "Gettysburg".

I have probably seen the movie 10 times (or more) and my only regret is Martin Sheen playing Robt. E. Lee.

Gods and Generals was also directed by Ron Maxwell and it starred Robert Duvall as Gen. Lee. He was much much better.

Robert Cook said...

"On June 16, 2021, the city of Newark, N.J., unveiled a statue of George Floyd sitting on a park bench and resting with his arm outstretched. The 700-pound bronze sculpture was erected in front of Newark's city hall. No one can name one thing that man did that would justify this honor. So can we demand the statue be removed from the public's view and melted down for reuse?"

Yep.

Mason G said...

"Was any of this discussed in the article?"

Reporters couldn't be reached for comment, they were attending the "Ow! My Balls!" premiere.

The Crack Emcee said...

John Oliver had a good take on this

Clyde said...

I saw another statue of General Lee sitting atop Traveller last year, on the Virginia Monument at Gettysburg. It is one of the 1,328 monuments and other markers that surround the town, maintained by the National Park Service, and it will not be going anywhere, despite the outcries of the Philistine iconoclasts. It is too bad that they have so little understanding of history.

It might help if they read this article about the 1913 Gettysburg reunion, when over 53,000 veterans of the battle (~8,750 of them Confederates) came together on the 50th anniversary of the battle in a spirit of reconciliation. Twenty-five years later in 1938, there was a much smaller 75th reunion with 25 veterans of the battle and 1,845 of the nation's approximately 8,000 living Civil War veterans, who averaged about 94 years of age.

If you have never been to the Gettysburg Battlefield, I think it is worth a visit. Most of the Union monuments are for individual units which had raised funds to honor their contribution to the battle, although each state also has its own monument, with the Pennsylvania monument being the largest and most impressive, in my opinion. When the Confederate veterans visited Gettysburg decades after the battle and saw all of the monuments around the battlefield, they asked, "Where are our monuments?" And of course, there were none, so they went home and raised the money to honor their fallen comrades. The Virginia Monument was the first of the Confederate monuments to be built and dedicated.

Clyde said...

Dave Begley said...
Lee's horse, Traveler, has had his grave defaced.

The horse!


The idiotic know-nothings vandalized the Shaw 54th Regiment Memorial in Boston during the George Floyd riots. It honors the first all-volunteer black regiment in the Union Army.

California Snow said...

I remember when the Left promised statues and such could go in a museum so we wouldn't forget our history. Instead, it's melted down. Maybe let's educate ourselves on Robert E Lee, who he was, and his contribution to the country AFTER the war?

Truthavenger said...

Someone should start a fund raising campaign to create an exact replica of the statue, same size or larger, to be erected on private property as close to the original place as possible. This would be a giant middle finger to the ignorant zealots who destroyed the first statue. I, a northerner who has mild admiration for Lee but no great love, would contribute. But I have much more desire to stop the whitewashing of our history.

Narr said...

Back in the 1990's, when I was just getting used to online discussions at soc.hist. and alt.hist. usw I became part of a group of people who met F2F in various numbers and combinations. We spent one weekend actually staying on the Perryville KY battlefield, and I was among people who knew that episode better than almost anyone--that was great.

One of the guys raised enough money over several years to have a small equestrian statue of Old Pete Longstreet installed at the Gettysburg park. I saw it in '03 when my old friend from work and my brother made an ACWABAWS road trip all over that theater of war.

There were only three Tennessee regiments at Gettysburg, the 1st, 7th, and 14th VIR of Archer's Brigade of Heth's Division. They were mauled on the first day at the RR cut.

I've visited almost every major battle site of that war, and a lot of the smaller ones, often more than once, and don't consider myself done yet.







n.n said...

They destroy secular gods to emancipate themselves from their past, present, and progressive parade full of pride and prejudice. That said, all's fair in lust and abortion.

Static Ping said...

Statues are typically melted down by one of two types of groups, of which there is often overlap:

1. Looters who want to convert the valuable metals into something easier to transport.
2. Conquerors who are trying to impress on the conquered that they are defeated and should submit.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Hooray! racism is over now, right?

William said...

I think the melted remnants of the statue should be recast as a bell. It should be hung in the National Cathedral and should only be rung with the passing of great American heroes. Then whenever anyone asks who the bell is tolling for, we can reply that it tolls for Lee.

Sprezzatura said...

Doc Mike: "Cook waxing eloquent about the drug overdose victim who was NOT murdered by a police officer but who has given us the new model of lynching. The Medical Examiner lied under oath and Cook and his fellow leftists love it."

So, according to Doc Mike, this "new model of lynching" is not a real problem but presumably the "high-tech lynching for uppity blacks who in any way deign to think for themselves, to do for themselves, to have different ideas. You will be lynched, destroyed, caricatured by a committee of the U.S. Senate, rather than hung from a tree" is a bad thing.

Never mind that the theoretically high-tech lynched dude was a sexual predator re more than one gal (but the committee of the U.S, Senate hid most of this evidence other than one person they presented) that he had power over. And rather than being dead the high-tech lynched dude has continued to live and he has been paid off with hundreds of thousands (millions?) of dollars (trips/RVs/$ and houses to relatives/and so on), OTOH the black guy that Doc Mike doesn't like is dead as a doornail.

So I ask you Doc Mike, which is closer to being lynched: living the life of a fat cat, or being dead and six feet under ground?

buster said...

It could be worse for Lee. Oliver Cromwell's corpse was exhumed, then hanged and beheaded, the head was mounted on a spike and displayed from the roof of Westminster Hall.

buster said...

It could be worse for Lee. Oliver Cromwell's corpse was exhumed, then hanged and beheaded, the head was mounted on a spike and displayed from the roof of Westminster Hall.

Saint Croix said...

John Oliver had a good take on this

Sorry, it's glib as shit.

Suppose fans of Ruth Bader Ginsburg wanted to put a statue of her up in Boston. And they did, using public money.

I wouldn't care. I have no opinion. If it was on the Althouse blog, I would just skip that one. Boring!

I don't hate Blackmun, or Ginsburg, or any of those people. They did horrific things because they were wrong on the moral issue before them.

Just like Washington, Jefferson, and Madison did horrific things because they were wrong on the moral issue before them.

If some socialists wanted to punish Madison, Wisconsin for naming their city after a slave-owner, and that was on the Althouse blog? I would read the shit out of that and comment multiple times and enjoy myself mocking the dumb fuckers who hate Madison, Wisconsin.

Does that make any sense? The people celebrating the spiking of the football for 19th century crimes against humanity are not serious people. Not the least of which because these same morons are ignoring the 18th century crimes against humanity, the 15th century crimes against humanity, or the B.C. era crimes against humanity.

Slavery was fucking widespread in human history. People who want to blame America as if we're the original sinners are too dishonest for words. John Oliver can burn the Magna Carta or whatever damn British history was signed by slave-owners, rapists, or pedophiles. He's a funny guy but as a moral thinker, Crack, you're better than he is.

Saint Croix said...

I hope Lee will forgive them.

Crack!

Did you find God?

You're talking about Lee as if he's in alive in the afterlife.

(The answer is yes, of course they are forgiven, people in heaven hold no grudges)

Saint Croix said...

Jamie at 11:15! nice

Saint Croix said...

Clyde, your comments are fantastic, thank you

Saint Croix said...

the horse!

Saint Croix said...

Narr at 5:43

I cannot find the original Napoleon comment

"No one caused more evil than Napoleon."

but I now propose Narr's Law

When hillbillies start throwing down the Napoleon insults

things have gotten really fucking insane

Doug said...

Let us hear your cries, progs, when they blowtorch your statues.

Narayanan said...

Slavery was fucking widespread in human history.
-------
true

People who want to blame America as if we're the original sinners are too dishonest for words...
-------
but did the dishonesty by founding fathers baked the sin into cake/cured into concrete??!!

wendybar said...

Robert Cook said...
"George Floyd died of a drug overdose. The autopsy proved it.

"Chauvin is an innocent man and he was railroaded because of his race."

Nope.

10/27/23, 5:54 PM


Yep!!!

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/new-court-docs-say-george-floyd-had-fatal-level-of-fentanyl-in-his-system/89-ed69d09d-a9ec-481c-90fe-7acd4ead3d04

Narayanan said...

In Dallas the city took down a sculpture of Robert E. Lee by another illustrious but lesser known artist, Alexander Phimister Proctor and it was sold at auction for $1.4 million.
=======
Hitler Moustache by itself would fetch more!!!

Narayanan said...

In Dallas the city took down a sculpture of Robert E. Lee by another illustrious but lesser known artist, Alexander Phimister Proctor and it was sold at auction for $1.4 million.
=======
Hitler Moustache by itself would fetch more!!!

or maybe Trunp Orange Scalp!!

Josephbleau said...

"No one caused more evil than Napoleon."

“Really? Show your work.“

Napoleanic war was a war of empire and theft with total deaths from 5 to 7 million. World population was 1/8th that of today. Ww2 deaths 52 to 56 million, 8x7 mm = 56million. So equivalent, but Many deaths were in Asia in ww2, out of scope for Napoleon. French army raped, pillaged, and starved its way across Europe for 12 years. Napoleon was as bad as Hitler in raw death, and as bad as Alexander the Great, perhaps not as bad as Gengis Khan. Napoleon created the war himself.

Stalin and Mao? Yes but their deaths were not solely due to declared war, so they are out of scope.

Narr said...

Josephbleau, your comment at 2:51 about Napoleon and evil--I don't object to your opinion, I'm just curious about your standards of comparison. Hitler killed more people while taking the world backward, and then there are Stalin and Mao to account for, just to name a few.

Narr said...

Actually, Napoleon had war declared against him as often as not--declared by powers as greedy for land and wealth as he was. As Andrew Roberts puts it, there were no peace loving democracies in early 19th C Europe. He just happened to be better at war than they were, and also--a big part of his success--had a more dynamic, appealing, and progressive ideology to exploit

Substantially different from Hitler.

There will be debate pro and con about Napoleon as long as historians exist; Hitler's case is much starker.


Rusty said...

Saint Croix said...
"Narr at 5:43

I cannot find the original Napoleon comment

"No one caused more evil than Napoleon."

but I now propose Narr's Law

When hillbillies start throwing down the Napoleon insults

things have gotten really fucking insane"

Gotta admit. Pretty damn funny.

Josephbleau said...

I guess I don’t understand the joke, but since I am a fucking insane “hillbilly” I guess that is the way it works.

rcocean said...

The French Revolutionaires were evil, Napoleon was just a little less evil.

Narr said...

FTR, I haven't called anyone a hillbilly, insane, or an insane hillbilly. I'm just trying to have a civil conversation on a subject of interest.

lostingotham said...

Old news...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/world/taliban-destroys-bamiyan-buddha-statues-in-2001/2015/07/29/8e0c35ca-362f-11e5-ab7b-6416d97c73c2_video.html

Josephbleau said...

Narr, I was not talking to you, I previously answered your question about what I thought about Napoleon and there was another comment that seemed to suggest that talking about Napoleon meant that I was a "hillbilly". Sorry for the confusion, thanks.

Denever said...

"It also fires up their antagonists, enhancing their faith. Think of the Taliban's destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas."

What a strange example. How exactly were Buddhists "fired up" about this? Were there protests? Demonstrations? Denunciations? How did this act of destruction "enhance their faith"?

Narr said...

No problem, Josephbleau.

Mind your own business said...


"The Confederate monuments, as noted above, served to heal the wounds of the Civil War. I guess we have moved beyond that." - Amadeus

No, we've just reopened those wounds. Not a smart move.