August 7, 2023

"If Trump were accused of using fraud for pecuniary gain or of lying to federal investigators, there would be no free-speech problem."

"The complaint, however, focuses on the lies rather than any larceny or standalone crime. It is diffuse in saying that raising doubts over the election undermined the value or results of voting. Previous challenges have been made to certification of presidential elections with little basis (including by Democrats) and even alternative sets of electors have been submitted without criminal charges. This criminal intent is based on Trump being told by many people that the election was not stolen and he could not stop its certification.... However, Trump followed the advice of a second, albeit smaller, set of lawyers who told him there was a basis for challenging the election. That is not a crime. It is, in my view, protected political speech...."

Writes Jonathan Turley in "How Donald Trump’s Indictment Could Backfire on Joe Biden" (The Messenger).

"The very controversial linchpin used against Trump could conceivably be used against Biden.... For example, Biden conceded that his own White House counsel and trusted legal advisers uniformly told him that renewing a national eviction moratorium would be unconstitutional — but he listened instead to a Harvard law professor who reportedly assured him he had the authority. His eviction-ban order was quickly found unconstitutional by the Supreme Court...."

Turley applies this point to the Hunter Biden controversy, so go to the link if you want to read that.

68 comments:

Rusty said...

Ya think, perfesser.

rehajm said...

Fun stuff for armchair quarterbacks but like everything else with these Democrats legal basis won't have much to do with it. The appropriate number of handpicked DC kooks is all the they need to get what they want...

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Recall when pelsi ripped up Trump's speech. yeah. It's like that. Rage factor - full Maddow.

hombre said...

Turley's stuff is very interesting. It is rendered less relevant by the politically corrupt DC Judge and jury for whom legal niceties like the First Amendment and "innocent until proven guilty" likely mean nothing.

Most, maybe all, of this case should be disposed of by motion. Given Democrats, does anyone believe it will be.

West TX Intermediate Crude said...

So, by this formulation, it's not what Trump did, it's what he was thinking when he did it.
Thoughtcrime.

Thoughtcrime by me:
Trump apparently still believes that the 2020 election was stolen from him. Why would it be so difficult to believe that he thought the same way in Jan 2021?

Owen said...

Turley is talking sense. Who has time for that?

hombre said...

The lefty point is a reputed $40 million in legal fees. What conservative Republican will want to face that?

It is wishful thinking to suppose a DeSantis or Cruz would not face the same. Remember HitlerchimpyBush? And he was a RINO.

wendybar said...

It doesn't matter. The left has an agenda, and it will follow that agenda until America falls.

Lance said...

Hmm, impeach any president who oversteps constitutional bounds? I'm okay with that!

Sebastian said...

"How Donald Trump’s Indictment Could Backfire on Joe Biden"

How so? American law is a matter of who, whom. Ask Bill and Hill. Ask Comey and McCabe. Joe has nothing to worry about.

gilbar said...

This criminal intent is based on Trump being TRUMP
Not only, was Trump a republican (which is "okay" as long as it's in name Only); he was TRUMP
Some sins are Unforgivable. THIS is one

mikee said...

I would prefer Trump not be re-elected. He has proven himself unable to subdue the swamp beasts of DC. But it seems that his electoral success is the only path open this cycle to repudiate the Democrat's subversion of every government institution. I also fear that if Trump is not re-elected, his successor in opposition to the Democrats will be a truly totalitarian opponent who will make the Dem's cries that every Republican is a "Hitler" over the past decades seem even more ridiculous than they have been. When you tell a Big Lie, you have to beware is doesn't become true.

Enigma said...

In 2016, deep state serpent James Comey polished Obama's apple in saying: "No reasonable prosecutor" would bring charges against Hillary for her email server. At the same time, Hillary's fictitious pee dossier and Crossfire Hurricane happened, and these were shortly followed by the known-to-be-pointless-in-advance looooooong Mueller investigation.

These ongoing attacks on Trump merely verify a pattern of different rules for non-DC outsiders from the very start. Is he clean? Apparently no. Are the others clean? Absolutely not. Are others prosecuted? No. Were the others prosecuted? No.

See Kunstler.com for more.


https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/05/fbi-director-james-comey-has-concluded-the-investigation-into-clintons-emails.html

TreeJoe said...

There is a constitutional problem here that I'd like to understand what legal options there are to redress:

We have a fairly well documented 7 year history of the DoJ, and through them the FBI, illegally and/or abnormally pursuing a president-candidate/president-elect/president/former-president non stop. Using extremely shaky grounds, lies, mis-representations, withholding of evidence, and more.

Now we have this latest salvo. What is the recourse against the FBI/DoJ possible from the courts?

Leland said...

I noted in a previous thread that Kamala Harris is going around spreading lies and disinformation in red states. Perhaps the AG’s will convene a grand jury, since that is how politics is done these days in the US.

Buckwheathikes said...

Joe Biden HIMSELF has publicly cast doubt on our elections (and rightly so, since they are tainted by fraud.)

During one of his forays from the basement in 2020 he went to a local diner in New Hampshire.

After a woman claimed she had a "very severe case of what's called Trump Derangement Syndrome," she claimed that Trump is an "illegitimate president in my mind." Biden responded: "I absolutely agree."

Reporters covered the event and wrote about it here: https://www.insider.com/joe-biden-says-he-agrees-trump-is-illegitimate-president-2019-5

People need to be disabused of the notion that there are facts, that this is a case, that justice is being sought. Because none of that is true.

This is a Soviet-style show trial meant to remove the Republican candidate so that the Democrat wins the election.

The conviction is already written. It only remains for the actors to take the stage.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

Prosecuting politicians for lying is a novel idea. It’s one of those things that sounds good.

Let’s call it Critical Political Theory.

Novelist and commentator Walter Kirn compares it to prosecuting a cow for mooing.

Emery said...

You can sincerely believe in the Easter Bunny, too ... but if your parents, your aunties and uncles and your neighbors all tell you that they have been the ones hiding the Easter eggs, then your "sincere beliefs" are quaint, but no longer valid.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

Dave Chappell calls it honest lying.

link to video

Michael K said...

Nothing about the Trump prosecutions has anything to do with the law or the Constitution. Once you understand this the rest becomes clear. The billionaires who rule us through Deep State creatures will not allow the people to choose their government. What comes next is either the Soviet Union or Pinochet.

rhhardin said...

The problem is malicious prosecution, not anything deeply constitutional.

rhhardin said...

pecuniary gain

All hat no cattle.

Gusty Winds said...

Turley pretends in his analysis that the rule of law still matters in the American justice system. It doesn't, so all his points, however valid, are worthless. This Obama appointed judge is a Trump hater, and obviously in the bag. She'll just make things up as she goes along. I'm sure she is coordinating with the DOJ.

We will see the same lawlessness from the new liberal WI Supreme Court and they openly legislate from the bench and ignore the WI State Constitution.

Gusty Winds said...

The notion that Trump took bad advice from a small group of lawyers is laughable. We all saw the 2020 election fraud planned and then carried out in real time. Trump knows what tens of millions of Americans know. They didn't want him to be President anymore, and Biden was installed.

What we are seeing is the full implementation of the thought police. The American thought police have been growing for years, and it's not just you Karen neighbor. It's now our "justice" dept.

In national elections, if you are in a tight purple state with Democrat controlled metropolitan areas, your vote will never count for shit again if this is successful.

Rich said...

The indictments of Trump have nothing to do with Hunter Biden, or Hillary Clinton's email server, or any of the other hypothetical what-about-isms Trump’s supporters toss out as if they had any relevance. They aren't Democrats trying to indict Trump out of the race. They are the legal system of the United States upholding the rule of law.

Gusty Winds said...

DeSantis could be the hero here, but he is choosing not to be. If he is truly as anti-deep state as he claims, he'd be more vocal about this bullshit even if it means he has to wait until 2028 for his chance.

The Twitter/X accounts being employed for DeSantis are saying NOTHING that will sway the MAGA base to abandon Trump. Their messaging and tweets are very coordinated and redundant. They now sound like the new Lincoln Project.

If he [DeSantis] is waiting for these prosecutions to somehow disqualify Trump so he can step in, he loses the general election in a landslide to Gavin Newsome. For the 35 million voter MAGA base, this isn't just about Trump. It's about stopping the left and the GOPe from taking us to a point of no return.

Looking at the trajectory, we are well on our way there. The MAGA base is in for the Hail Mary, and willing to accept defeat. If Trump doesn't win, the American working class loses. It's that simple.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

I remember Jimmy Carter, may he rest at home, not dead yet, saying at his debate with Reagan that he consulted with his daughter Amy about nuclear issues.

The idea of prosecuting Jimmy for that would have seen preposterous.

Now? Anything goes.

Which really if you stop and think about the main point of liberty and democracy is, if you had to succinctly define it, it’s about self restraint. Restraint Of both the individual and the government. It’s a dance between the two.

The prosecution of Trump is a halt to that arrangement.

Gunner said...

Dems are allowed by the media to listen and associate with any wackos on their side.

wendybar said...

What do you expect from a daughter of a mafioso??


https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fnymag.com%2Fintelligencer%2F2023%2F08%2Fhow-nancy-pelosi-long-game-led-to-trumps-indictment.html

MalaiseLongue said...

Hillary Clinton said in a new interview that Joe Biden should not concede the 2020 presidential election “under any circumstances,” anticipating issues that could prolong knowing the final outcome.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/hillary-clinton-says-biden-should-not-concede-2020-election-under-n1238156

“We wanted to be mindful of when was the right time to call for moving masses of people into the street” . . . As much as they were eager to mount a show of strength, mobilizing immediately could backfire . . . . So the word went out: stand down. Protect the Results announced that it would “not be activating the entire national mobilization network today, but remains ready to activate if necessary.”

https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/

Yancey Ward said...

Turley is correct on the law but is shockingly naive on the rest of it. Biden is not endangered by any of this- the Democrats know, literally know, that their own legal tactics won't and can't be used against them by the Republicans.

Gusty Winds said...

The ONLY way this backfires if if single women who are keeping the Democrat party floating, decide to remove their heads from their asses.

I don't see that happening.

Rich said...

Trump’s level of public support should matter not a whit to how the application of justice is administered. If he’s done something wrong, and any dispassionate observer will agree that he has, then he should face the consequences. Naturally he’s going to play the victim card to the point of tedium and naturally his hard core of supporters will join in the whinge fest.

But a mature democracy can only exist and function if its leaders are as accountable as its most humble citizens. If social status is to be a factor in determining whether or not someone pays a penalty for wrongdoing then we might as well hand the keys of the shop over to the mob and its chosen messiah.

Let justice take its course, regardless of how the process affects his standing among Republicans. They’ll say it’s politically motivated regardless of the evidence.

But doing wrong should *always* carry consequences.

henge2243 said...

Say it with me, "Joseph R. Biden, super genius".

madAsHell said...

Kamala Harris is going around spreading lies and disinformation

The George Costanze politician.........it's not lies, and disinformation if you believe it.

She's not smart enough to exercise her judgment.

wendybar said...

Sharyl Attkisson 🕵️‍♂️💼🥋
@SharylAttkisson
If someone genuinely believes an election was unfair (as they have the right to believe in the US) and believes electoral votes can be downvoted (as they have a right to believe in the US), why are they prohibited from asking? And when you declined, did he have you arrested or prosecuted, as others are doing to him?

Mike Pence
@Mike_Pence
·
Aug 2
President Trump and his gaggle of crackpot lawyers asked me to reject electoral votes and chaos would have ensued. To keep faith with the oath that I made to the American people and to Almighty God, I did my duty that day.

Kevin said...

Closing argument: Trump is bad. Vote accordingly.

Rich said...

Trump and Trump's lawyers are conducting a legal defense in the court of public opinion, possibly at risk to the legal defense to be mounted in the courtroom. Trump seems to be undermining his own fair trial.

Are Trump's arguments being made in the court of public opinion designed to influence the presidential election or the legal proceedings inside the courtroom?

Can the moods created in the court of public opinion affect in any decisive way the legal proceeding conducted in the courtroom? American courtrooms are designed to insulate process and judgments from external influences. Will this hold?

Can the federal judge supervising the trial constrain the defendant sufficiently to protect the objectivity of the legal proceeding in the courtroom while allowing him enough freedom of speech to run for president? Even when Trump's oratorical pyrotechnics are designed to undermine the proceeding in the courtroom? Will the appeals court and the Supreme Court support the trial judge in conducting a fair trial or must the coming trial be a trial by combat and not a trial by law?

Virgil Hilts said...

My attitute towards DT is (I think) similar to Ann's. I don't take a lot of his hyperbole and bombastity seriously and do not see him as a threat to democracy, etc. I kind of like how his team ran the country, foreign policy and cut back on some of the regulatory state. I will give him a pass on covid. And yes he's an asshole.
But I read Andrew Sullivan's screed this morning (I like Andrew even though he's deranged on some things; I think until recently he was OK with a DeSantis presidency). His absolute hatred of DT and fear of the damage he could so is similar to my daughter's. It's really something to read - he thinks this could be the beginning of the end of the country. What's the point? - -- I am starting to think this could be a self-fulfilling prophecy on both sides. I have no doubt there would have been massive riots had DT won a close election in 2020, and a lot more deaths. It's not very fun anymore. I have no idea where we're going.

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

Jack Smith is assuming the powers of a U.S. Attorney without going through the necessary process of nomination by the President and confirmation by the Senate. He was appointed by our so-nonpartisan Attorney General, Merrick "I hate Republicans and normal Americans" Garland. Trump should file RICO charges against Smith for exercising police powers that he has no authority for. Next thing Smith will indict Trump for is littering at Mar-a-Lago.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

Can’t wait to see the 51 “intelligence experts” who lied about Hunter’s laptop to undermine an election brought up on charges.

Maynard said...

We are bearing the fruits of decades of Neo-Marxist and Postmodernist brainwashing in our universities.

Trump is being financially punished by people who twist the meaning of words and laws into incomprehensible forms. Anyone who follows in his footsteps is likely to face similar law fare.

We are entering a political era where only Soviet Democraticals and GOPe enablers will be avowed to run for and hold office.

It is a Brave New World.

Big Mike said...

@Althouse, a couple years back, when you were explaining prosecutorial discretion to us Deplorables, did you have any inkling of the slippery slope ahead?

alanc709 said...

We don't have a government anymore- we have several crime families working in concert to eliminate opponents

Mutaman said...

First Dershowitz and now Turley. Who's next-Rudy? Wonder if the day will ever come when Althouse cites a legal opinion by a non - right winger attorney.

Mikey NTH said...

Essentially, a lawyer giving a client advice from a minority perspective is now a criminal act. Lawyers should feel a chill going up their spines. And the implications for any litigation to challenge existing statutes and precedents is going to be quite grim.

Buckwheathikes said...

Since when in America do we allow the donors of one political party to criminally prosecute the donors of the opposing party?

https://justthenews.com/government/courts-law/trump-prosecutor-donated-thousands-biden-democrats-records-show

This lawyer is the definition of "conflict of interest" and it is unethical that he is allowed to hunt down Donald Trump.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

We told him that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. And Bush listened.

The dozens of "intelligence officials" signing some letter saying the Hunter laptop was a Russian disinformation/election interference, has any of them faced any repercussions?

Those are only two off the top of my head.

Every presidency has been chuck-full of these.

Buckwheathikes said...

Oh, did anyone else notice that the lead FBI agent that helped Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and James Comey bring down Donald Trump's presidency is set to please guilty to money laundering this week.

Yeah. He was actually worked for the Russians.

https://nypost.com/2023/08/07/ex-fbi-official-slated-to-plead-guilty-in-corruption-case/

But yeah, J6 ya'll.

Tim said...

Any honest ( yeah, I know that is no one on the Left) knows it was stolen.

Arashi said...

Hey, once they finally 'get Trump', then get the CCP social credit score system fully implemented here and in the rest of the west, all of us guilty of wrong think will finally be dealt with - of to the gulags for us.

There will be no opposition to the narrative. There will be other party except the democrat party. Period. I wonder if they will have neat little lapel pins for the party faithful to wear to show the rest of us who is in charge?

holdfast said...

Ultimately, there is appeal to the USSC. That's not really redress, but it can over-turn an improper conviction.

holdfast said...

Biden isn't personally worried.

I think he sees Father Time coming for him soonish, and so knows he will have a short ex-presidency, if at all.

holdfast said...

"Yet it maintains that Trump can be convicted for lying because he really did not believe what he said."

If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.

Drago said...

Looks like "Rich" is another "random" LLR just popping in to take up the LLR commenting slack!

You'd think these LLR self-anointed rocket scientists could go about it in a more subtle fashion...

...but nope.

It is election season after all and Omidyar, Reid Hoffman et al want some bang for their astroturf bucks.

Good luck Rich! I am sure LLR ***** and LLR lonejustice will be along shortly to "spontaneously" respond to your "authentic" and totally not coordinated post!

It should make for a virtual tidal wave of changed opinion!

LOL

Left Bank of the Charles said...

I concede that the fraud charge requires proof of a lie or falsehood but what about the obstruction of an official proceeding charges? That’s a standalone crime, as is the charge of conspiracy against the right to vote and to have one’s voted counted.

Jim at said...

If he’s done something wrong, and any dispassionate observer will agree that he has, then he should face the consequences.

Great. Just what this blog needs. Another arrogant leftist peddling a bunch of horseshit.

Rusty said...

Rich said...
The same post and sentence structure.
Piss off Chuck.

wendybar said...

What Gusty Winds said @ 10:14 AM

wendybar said...

But doing wrong should *always* carry consequences.

8/7/23, 11:20 AM

If true...Hillary, the FBI liars, Obama and Biden would already be in prison. They aren't. Worry about them before the fake charges against Trump.

wendybar said...

Drago said...
Looks like "Rich" is another "random" LLR just popping in to take up the LLR commenting slack!

My thoughts exactly.

Jamie said...

Can the moods created in the court of public opinion affect in any decisive way the legal proceeding conducted in the courtroom?

Gee, I wonder whether the protests outside courtrooms where abortion cases are being heard have ever been intended to affect in any decisive way the legal proceeding conducted in the courtroom.

For that matter, I wonder whether the violent, fiery riots of 2020 were intended to affect in any decisive way the legal proceeding conducted in the courtroom when Chauvin was on trial.

Until someone can explain convincingly how this indictment differs from the tedious, years-long chorus of "Bush lied, people died!" that apparently was not enough to warrant legal action, I'm going to say that the judge's gag order on a front-running presidential candidate is another brick in the "protect Biden" wall.

boatbuilder said...

"But doing wrong should *always* carry consequences."

Good Lord. Send better trolls.

boatbuilder said...

"I concede that the fraud charge requires proof of a lie or falsehood but what about the obstruction of an official proceeding charges? That’s a standalone crime, as is the charge of conspiracy against the right to vote and to have one’s voted counted."

There's got to be some sort of bullshit charge that we can get him on. Any bullshit will do. Just get him!

Kai Akker said...

---What do you expect from a daughter of a mafioso?? [Wendybar]

Right. And what the article doesn't say is that Pelosi had cleverly maneuvered the Capitol security in a strategy to make sure that a Jan. 6 protest could be turned into a "riot." We've seen the weird footage and heard from officials like the police chief that he was kept in the dark and denied assistance. Plus all the FBI provocateurs. Nancy;s careful planning bore fruit and then all the indictments and prosecutions could flow right out of her craftiness and into this Trump persecution.

Some, like Powerline's John Hinderaker, argue that this is part of a Democratic plan to make sure Trump is the Republican nominee and the Democrats can change the subject from Biden to Trump and win again with some other candidate entirely. But Pelosi's Roman hatred of Trump seems so personal and petty that it's probably at least as much revenge as political strategy. Kill him with 1,000 blows and maybe that sucker will stay dead this time.

U.S. law Sicilian style.

iowan2 said...

First Dershowitz and now Turley.

Mutaman, your absence of specific facts of the law these people got wrong, throws you into that basket of deplorables called mindless trolls, seeking only to stir the pot, not engage on the topic.

Tina Trent said...

Mutaman: you're wrong. Dershowitz is a Democrat who voted for Hillary Clinton and campaigned against Trump. He's also a scumbag who has defended (and lobbied for the release of) scores of sex traffickers, child pornographers, child rapists, and murderers, including Epstein, Weinstein, and O.J. Simpson. Sure, he's smart. But I'd love to see one of the fathers of his clients' many, many child rape victims give him everything he is due, slowly.

Jonathan Turley calls himself a libertarian, but he is iconoclastic in his political leanings. He defended terrorist-money-launderer USF Prof Sami Al-Arian. He refused to represent Trump. He is one of the most logical and consistent interpreters of the law that we have today.

Mutaman said...

iowan2 said...



"Mutaman, your absence of specific facts of the law these people got wrong, throws you into that basket of deplorables called mindless trolls, seeking only to stir the pot, not engage on the topic. "

There are "facts" and there is "law". Don't think I ever heard of "facts of the law".