"[T]he instinct to focus purely on physiological explanations is both rooted in and serves to reinforce the misogynistic stereotype that 'women’s sport participation is dangerous predominantly due to female biology.'... 'The focus on anatomical differences means we have left out the other parts, the extrinsic factors'.... It just so happens that those are the ones that might, feasibly, be addressed...."
July 19, 2023
"'There are obvious anatomical differences' between men’s and women’s knees... Not just the knees, in fact — the whole leg...."
"There are differences in the hips, the pelvis, the engineering of the foot. Increasingly, too, there is a body of evidence to suggest there is a link between hormonal fluctuations and susceptibility to injuries in general, and A.C.L. injuries in particular...."
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How can they define "woman" when even Supreme Court justices cannot do so?
What do you expect when you live in a time in which a female Supreme Court Justice cannot define what a woman is?
This seems like an argument for allowing more trans women to play: less prone to knee injuries!
So ... the conclusion that I've drawn from this story is that you can identify who is a woman by the shape of their knees, their hips, their pelvis and the engineering of their feet. Not how they see themselves (or claim to in order to compete in easier categories of sport).
I thought this sort of "science" was no longer allowed.
Pure crap. Knee injuries in soccer have long been a problem. Nothing new and nothing exclusive to women. Much the same as shoulder injuries in ice hockey.
I swear a prerequisite for being a writer at the NYT is to know nothing about anything.
So this is the next "shocking finding" about female anatomy and physiology after the NYT belatedly discovered in 2012 that women can't do as many pull-ups as men?
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/women-cant-do-pull-ups-explained-001222911.html
this is The MOST Racist, Sexist, Transphobic crap i have EVER Heard!!
There are NO Differences between Men and Women!!!
Men are NOT "stronger" than women!
Men are NOT taller, bigger, or faster than women!
MEN AND WOMEN ARE EXACTLY THE SAME!!!
The Only differences are between front hole 'people', and REAL people that have dicks!!!
Keep the 19th Amendment! STOP letting front hole 'people' have Any say; They exist to breed, Only
I’m sorry, in order to claim there are “anatomical differences between men’s and women’s knees” you first have to be able to define why a woman is, right?
So is this article Trans phobic?
And if you say “no” or disagree in any way, that’s evidence of your transphobia.
Hey, I think I’m getting the hang of this…
And where are all the large breasted world-class female athletes?
Asking for a friend.
Because of the hips (for carrying a baby) women's knees tend to be tipped inward--knock knees and pigeon toed. Not ideal for athletics. Women also have lower bone density. Women in basic training tend to get severe pelvic injuries that can even prevent them from having kids. The article tries to argue that a focus on biology is wrong--but it over-rides ideology. Sorry libs, but reality bites.
Male Major League pitchers have a disproportionate number of elbow and shoulder injuries.
Oh, the misandry!
I can't sit and watch a whole football match. After regular time, added time, extra time, half-time, overtime and then the shootout, a 1-1 final tally is just not satisfying.
I watch most sports in highlight form on UTube.
Very true based upon what I've seen with college basketball.
Since it's the NYT I will not read the article. This is old news. Apparently women's sports medicine is beginning to catch on to this problem and exercises to minimize the problem are being developed. There is, however, no way to change the various knee/pelvic angles that cause women trouble. Another point in the men should not be competing against women argument.
"Pure crap. Knee injuries in soccer have long been a problem. Nothing new and nothing exclusive to women. Much the same as shoulder injuries in ice hockey. "
From the article:
"It is established fact that women are more at risk of suffering an A.C.L. injury than men. Quite how much more at risk is a little murkier. Martin Hagglund, a professor of physiotherapy at the University of Linkoping in Sweden, puts the risk at “two to three times greater, based on a systematic review of studies.” Culvin goes a little higher: Some studies, she said, suggest the risk for women could be “six or seven” times as great as that for men."
Huh. I'm unfamiliar with this 'women’s sport participation is dangerous predominantly due to female biology' stereotype. I thought that was just the explanation for why women's sports are typically less compelling to watch than men's sports.
Come to think of it, pointing to biological differences between men and women should really be the pro-transwomen in sports go-to argument. "Do you want dunking in the WNBA or not?"
The NYT is late to the story. From WebMD, nearly a quarter century ago: Hormones and anatomy make women more prone to knee injuries
One in 10 female college athletes suffers a major knee injury (usually an ACL tear) every year -- five to six times more often than their male counterparts, Hewett says. And while nobody knows how often casual athletes injure their knees, it's not a rare event, says Hewett, citing a recent study of recreational soccer players that found that women were roughly five times more likely than men to seriously damage their knee ligaments.
So is the problem that the frequency of knee injuries in women’s soccer is increasing? Or is the problem that right now random chance has left more top players with knee injuries? If the latter, is it due to women’s international teams practicing against top young men’s teams (u-23) and getting the shit beaten out of them?
I swear a prerequisite for being a writer at the NYT is to know nothing about anything.
@Michael, you broke the code!!!
Gilbar said:
“The Only differences are between front hole 'people', and REAL people that have dicks!!!“
I believe the proper term is “bonus hole”. You really need to read more you hateful country music loving hick from Pikeville.
Wow, I really am getting the hang of this. Pretty soon I’ll be able to vote Democrat.
Give it a few minutes to percolate, then I'm sure Pink-Hair Rapinoe will weigh in with the proper way to blame the Patriarchy.
According to one person quoted in the story, focusing on physiological explanations reinforces a misogynistic stereotype. Later on we are told what an outrage it is that the players are wearing shoes not specifically designed for women.
As was wisely stated in Andy Richter Controls The Universe, we need to both ignore, and celebrate, the things that make us the same, and different.
The particular vulnerabilty of women's knees to injury in soccer was common knowledge when my children played. The oldest is 52. The youngest is 37.
How nice that NYT has discovered it. Right on top of things as always.
"It is established fact that women are more at risk of suffering an A.C.L. injury than men. Quite how much more at risk is a little murkier. Martin Hagglund, a professor of physiotherapy at the University of Linkoping in Sweden, puts the risk at “two to three times greater, based on a systematic review of studies.” Culvin goes a little higher: Some studies, she said, suggest the risk for women could be “six or seven” times as great as that for men."
I've heard they're more likely to get pregnant, too!
Defining what a "woman" is will hold up research on stuff we knew 50 years ago. Women (TM ) are also more likely to have meniscal tears.
Your standard annoying NYT's (msm) article about sports. First, a complete lack of hard data. What is the rate of ACL's in mens soccer vs. women? We get no numbers, just some vague statement it "May be" 2 or 3 times or "May be" 7 times.
Than a SJW statement that "hey, don't blame that on Women's bodies, you sexist pig".
Then a plea for more $$. Women need special shoes. Women need more "support". Women need.. Women need...women need... Oh, and poor babies are now having to play more games. Not as many as the men of course.
Notice the author never goes outside soccer. Women get more ACL injuries in Skiiing. They get more in running. they get more in tennis. So, its not about "More money" or "special Shoes" its that women just are more likely to get injured. Probably because their bodies are built to have children and the men's are built to run around and hunt big game or whatever.
Of course the real reason women are getting injured more often is because they are more virtuious then men. If men weren't so selfishly involved in keeping fit and in shape, they'd get injured more often. Women, y'see, are focused on helping others, which leads to less fitness and more injuries.
Althouse rule invoked.
So, physiology is now "misogynist" if women are shown to be more prone to certain injuries than men. Reality is misogynist now.
Sigh.......women suffer more knee injuries because they have knees not optimally designed for running and changing direction. This has literally been known for over a century at a minimum. If there is an increase in such injuries it is all due to a change in the participation levels of women in sports like soccer plus a likely increase in the intensity of such participation (the same has happened for men- the athletic requirements for participating in serious team sports are higher than they were 50 years ago- thus more joint injuries for men, too).
Yes, there are exercises that can strengthen the joints and help prevent such injuries, but you will get more mileage by knowing your limitations on the court or field. There is a skill at protecting yourself from such injuries and perhaps we aren't teaching kids this properly.
But there are no antomical differnences in the genitals in the eyes the left...
That's because to a leftist, minors of either gender are equally worthy of sexual predation.
Whenever a feminist starts talking about something being "rooted in.....[whatever their hot button is]" you can just stop reading as they're just being hysterical. They have no facts, no data, just ideology and fantasy.
I notice mostly the elbow difference, which in women allows the lower arm to clear the hips.
Yank Your Girls Out of P.E. And Get Them in Home Ec, Now!
You've Got a Woman's Knee and You Should Go Home, Girly
If You Ladies Took More Steroids Like the Doctor Said This Shit Wouldn't Happen To You
I Had A Rainbow Sticker On My Car and Now My ACL Is Ripped Up
Man Gives Birth Unless We Are Making This Shit Up
We're Just Trying To Pay the Bills Until We Blot Out the Sun
The Bloodbath in Our Cafeteria Between the Woke Feminists and the Gay Mafia Is Not Newsworthy At All So Mind Your Own Business
We're Not Mexico, Don't Climb Over Our Pay Wall, You Cheating Bastards!
For years I was sorry I had missed the women's soccer trend which wasn't a thing in the 60s. I loved Fieldball which was just something they made you do in girls PE to fill the time.
Now I'm glad I missed it because all these games just seem to injure you permanently before you've even got started in life. Ortho surgeons weren't that plentiful back then.
You Can't Use Us To Wipe Your Ass, Our Newspaper Has Been Specially Treated To Keep All the Shit Out
Almost every serious female skier I know has had an ACL tear. The rest have other knee injuries. I know far more male skiers and very few have knee problems, almost none with ACL tears.
If come up from behind a jogger, you can tell male from female from a long distance.
"No one can say for sure"
Just as no one could say for sure that OJ did it.
What? If there were a rash of unexplained knee injuries to male players, the focus would be on a physiological explanation for a long time too. Because it is a physiological reason 99% of the time. Even if it is because of badly designed equipment, the design is bad because it isn't working with the players' physiology.
"there is a body of evidence to suggest there is a link between hormonal fluctuations and susceptibility to injuries in general, and A.C.L. injuries in particular...."
This body of evidence has existed for the 25 years that I have coached soccer. And I think we discussed it in my college sports physiology courses, back in the 1980s. ACL tears are a blight on women's and even more so girls soccer. In my experience, high school girls teams can expect an ACL injury almost every year. In coaching boys soccer it was less than 20% of that rate.
There are exercises that can be done to increase the strength of the structures around the knee and reduce knee injuries, but even the best trained girls are substantially more likely to blow out a knee than the average boy.
"there is a body of evidence to suggest there is a link between hormonal fluctuations and susceptibility to injuries in general, and A.C.L. injuries in particular...."
This body of evidence has existed for the 25 years that I have coached soccer. And I think we discussed it in my college sports physiology courses, back in the 1980s. ACL tears are a blight on women's and even more so girls soccer. In my experience, high school girls teams can expect an ACL injury almost every year. In coaching boys soccer it was less than 20% of that rate.
There are exercises that can be done to increase the strength of the structures around the knee and reduce knee injuries, but even the best trained girls are substantially more likely to blow out a knee than the average boy.
Quit focusing on the physiological differences. It's the patriarchy ruined them ladies' knees, I tell ya.
HS said...
One in 10 female college athletes suffers a major knee injury (usually an ACL tear) every year -- five to six times more often than their male counterparts,
how does this relate, to pickleball injuries ?? Let, FIND OUT!!
NCBI: Non-fatal senior pickleball and tennis-related injuries treated in United States emergency departments, 2010–2019
..women were over three-and-a-half times more likely to suffer a fracture (OR 3.7, 95% CI = 2.3–5.7) compared to men and nine times more likely to suffer a wrist fracture (OR 9.3 95% CI = 3.6–23.9). Patterns of senior tennis and pickleball injuries were mostly similar.
Yeah, seems like a perfect “dudes-pretending-to-be-chicks to the rescue” narrative opportunity.
The current lunacy is not without it’s delights for this Orwell fan.
The Cubs new shortstop Dansby Swanson's wife plays professional soccer for the Chicago Red Stars, and was on the women's world cup team until she tore the patellar tendon in her left knee.
I watch most sports in highlight form on UTube.
To each, his own.
Carry on. But it is clear you lack the understanding, of what ever you are watching. Not a dig at you, just an observation. I watch the whole thing. With dvr, stop action, replay. It is not just the play, but all the subtleties, that add to the experience. Baseball, football, basketball. All is about the whole matchup. I'm learning soccer because of grand kids. I have learned alot in the last years. It becomes more interesting and holds more of my attention, as the quality of play goes up.
Caitlyn Clark, woman's Basketball player of the year, has greatly expanded the womens game, because of the way she plays. A transformative player. She greater than the sum of her impressive statistics.
I swear a prerequisite for being a writer at the NYT is to know nothing about anything.
That's why they only hire from the best schools of journalism
John Henry
So Megan Rapinhoe is right. Letting men play on women's soccer teams IS good for women.
Silly us for doubting.
Extrinsic factors. In other words, women's soccer needs to become a separate sport. I suppose the Nooyawk Times would rather not admit it's one already. The fact that mid-tier amateur teams have rolled over the women's world champion team like the Panzers rolled over the Third Republic ought to have given them the hint, But no, the NYT resorts to coded language. Extrinsic factors. Pure weasel-ese. Well, eeek-eeek to you too, Artie.
There is a solution that keeps women's soccer objectively soccer, and that's to ban women entirely. Let the players be drawn from the poseur community. There's no shortage of poofs who'd be all too happy to pretend to be women pretending to play soccer.
I think KJB can probably tell who is a woman and who isn't about as well as any of us. The interesting question is, why did she think she had to pretend that she couldn't? Was she worried the progs were going to cancel her if she admitted to knowing what a woman is? She can't very well have been concerned that the Republicans would be offended.
"The Curse Stalking Women's Soccer" - I thought this might be about menstruation at first, perhaps akin to the decision by Wimbledon directors to allow women players to wear non-white undergarments.
Are women's knee injuries correlated to a) less muscular strength in the knees/legs, b) something in women's leg structure and motion, or c) hormonal fluctuations, i.e., menstruation?
"Anatomy is destiny", Ed Hashimoto, MD - Professor of Anatomy at University of Utah School of Medicine
My bitch Vanna apparently tore her ACL years ago and just walked it off.
We bonded over Fetch
She's an Olympic Athlete and I'm her Coach
Years and years after she tore her first ACL, she tore her ACL in her other hind leg.
She was holding her leg off the ground, that's how I knew there was a problem.
Took her to the vet, who did an X-ray
That's when we discovered she had torn her ACL in both hind legs. She had the old tear in her left leg that had healed on its own. And she had a new tear in her right leg.
I paid $5,000 for a bionic knee.
And she's still fetching. She loves it. This morning I'm throwing the soccer ball and Vanna with the two torn ACLs outraces my other dog, Blue, who's super-excited and running in circles.
"No one can say for sure why it’s happening...." Yeah, right. As a woman who suffers from patellar instability, which is extremely rare in men but common in women, I've known about the "anatomical differences' between men and women's knees" since I was a kid.
I warned about this shit when they were pushing to put women in the infantry, and how women in initial entry training are 800% more likely to incur stress fracture injury from marching, running, and humping rucksacks -- something we've known for years. But NOOOOOOOOOO!
"The Curse Stalking Women’s Soccer/The World Cup is missing some of the sport’s biggest stars because of a knee injury epidemic. No one can say for sure why it’s happening, or how to fix it"
Like most Americans I don’t give a damn about soccer. Now, if it starts to affect women’s beach volleyball, that’s another matter.
Saint Croix said...
You Can't Use Us To Wipe Your Ass, Our Newspaper Has Been Specially Treated To Keep All the Shit Out
=========
from an engineering standpoint : Our Newspaper Has Been Specially Treated To Keep All the Shit Out [added] 'to make room for your shit while wiping'
"'There are obvious anatomical differences' between men’s and women’s knees... Not just the knees, in fact — the whole leg...."
I became acutely aware of this difference when I was about 11-years-old. Which is why, if given a choice, my preference is to be between the legs of women.
"Give it a few minutes to percolate, then I'm sure Pink-Hair Rapinoe will weigh in with the proper way to blame the Patriarchy."
^^This^^
As someone who coached women's sports at the elite level and therefore loves to see women excel in their chosen sport, I really hope the US women's soccer team gets their ass handed to them in the first round of the 2023 FIFA Women's World Cup.
"The current lunacy is not without it’s delights for this Orwell fan."
Yesterday, somewhere on the Internet, I saw a picture of guy wearing a baseball cap that read, Make Orwell Fiction Again.
I really hope the US women's soccer team gets their ass handed to them
So do I. Unfortunately, unless things have drastically changed since I stopped following the USWNT that's not very likely. While they lose to male 15-year-olds, they really are the class of women's soccer.
There is a Doritos commercial currently on Youtube highlighting the USWNT. The (unintentional I'm sure) funny part is when they mention names of specific players, they use the names of a player who hasn't played in 8 years (2 world cup cycles) and another who hasn't played in 19 years (nearly 5 world cup cycles).
If I was one of the current players, I'd be pissed.
Earlier this year I spent a day at the Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City. They had an exhibit that said scientists can look at a skeleton and determine if it was male or female. I was literally shaking. We need to send the Gender Studies Brigades to the Halls of Montezuma to educate those mouth breathers. It's the woke person's burden.
This is not new. I had ACL reconstruction in the early 90's at NYC's Hospital for Special Surgery. (Excellent work, very professional.) My surgeon and I were talking about ACL injury demographics in the initial consultation and he said they clustered in two group; men in their early- to mid-thirties (my cohort then) and women athletes in their late teens and early twenties.
If my daughter were an athlete I'd insist that she wear knee braces at all times.
Anyone with a grasp on reality and the ability to observe could have told you this, just based on what is visible.
I had the distinctly eye-opening experience of having the first women assigned to a combat arms unit under my care as platoon sergeant. Of the first three we got in, none of them managed to make it to the end of their first enlistment without having done enough damage to their bodies via trying to keep up with the males such that they wound up being eligible for medical discharge. We broke them, plain and simple.
Men's bodies are different. In some ways, women have superior abilities, but they don't matter much on the sports field or anywhere that traditional male dominance in terms of physical effort has ruled. They can't walk or run as efficiently, and they're way more prone to injury. I read something years ago that pointed out that the only area where women had better performance was in some long-distance and relatively slow ultra-marathoning where they had better endurance due to physiological factors related to their higher body fat percentages. Everywhere else, you have a biological woman trying to compete with a biological male, she's going to wind up breaking long before he does.
The VA bills are gonna be huge, in decades to come. Someone needs to do a cost-benefit analysis, and figure out what recruiting all these women into things like the combat arms is really costing us in terms of expense in the budget. Of course, the fact that we're abusing the hell out of these trusting young women means nothing; I'm a misogynist for even pointing that out.
The wife of a friend was an EMT and firefighter (now retired ). I’ve lost track of the number of reconstruction and replacement surgeries she has had on her shoulders, knees, hips, and probably other joints I don’t know about.
"Earlier this year I spent a day at the Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City."
A great place, You are allowed to buy a six pack of beer and carry it around with you drinking it as you view the exhibits, I think Superior beer is the best. You can get a guide, which makes the visit much more enjoyable, but it costs US$10 per hour.
I remember the story about the Aztec "Calendar Stone." Actually it was a circular stone where they would cut peoples hearts out.
The wife of a friend was an EMT and firefighter (now retired ). I’ve lost track of the number of reconstruction and replacement surgeries she has had on her shoulders, knees, hips, and probably other joints I don’t know about.
This quote tells more-or-less the whole story:
"As a paper published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine in September 2021 pointed out, though, the instinct to focus purely on physiological explanations is both rooted in and serves to reinforce the misogynistic stereotype that “women’s sport participation is dangerous predominantly due to female biology.”
It also runs the risk, in Hagglund’s mind, of turning a blind eye to the host of other issues that may have played a part in depriving the World Cup of so many of its brightest lights this month. “The focus on anatomical differences means we have left out the other parts, the extrinsic factors,” he said. It just so happens that those are the ones that might, feasibly, be addressed."
1. That the NYT seems to not point out or know that physiological and anatomical are not synonyms, doesn't inspire confidence in their reporting.
2. Here is where they say the quiet part out-loud. We can't do anything about women's biology so let's focus on some kind of mitigation--even if (chartered flights v commercial, really?) it won't make much difference.
Blogger rhhardin said...
I notice mostly the elbow difference, which in women allows the lower arm to clear the hips.
That's the "carrying angle" which is another invention of the patriarchy.
Women's soccer, basketball, lacrosse, field hockey, ice hockey, tennis, squash, track & field, etc. vs. men's soccer, basketball, lacrosse, field hockey, ice hockey, tennis, squash, track & field, etc.
They are different games.
Here is a high school player's perspective on the differences in the lacrosse rules from a somewhat defensive point of view. https://southblueprint.com/29707/opinions/the-polarizing-differences-of-women-and-mens-lacrosse/#:~:text=There%20are%20three%20positions%20in,checking%2C%20like%20women's%20lacrosse%20does.
Short version: the men's game is brutal.
No wonder the the late Jim Brown was one of the greatest college lacrosse players of all time as well as the greatest running back in NFL history.
@JMS: “No one can say for sure why it’s happening....
Yeah, right. As a woman who suffers from patellar instability, which is extremely rare in men but common in women …”
My daughter had surgery to correct patellar instability when she was in high school.
Australian soccer player has already found a way to blame the patriarchy.Her claim is that lack of research into cause of womens injuries. The reason for the lack of research is of course sexism
The NYT and all y'all except Amadeus 48, are missing the forest for the trees. The problem has nothing to do with biology.
The ENTIRE problem is that the ENTIRE world, including sports, was designed and built by and for the PATRIARCHY.
The whole system, every bit of it, must be utterly torn down, and then redesigned and rebuilt from scratch, by CAREFULLY SELECTED people. The RIGHT people this time.
(This is only a slight exaggeration of statements I have heard, admittedly made by recent university grads, but made nonetheless. Also please note the perfectly non-sexist language.)
I've coached youth soccer for both boys (2 seasons) and girls (4 seasons) teams. The injuries that worried me most were concussions. I taught the kids to play the long and high speed balls off their chest. Only head a ball if it's really low speed. They should change the rules to require this for youth soccer.
Even with the research finding of 2x or 3x rate increase in female vs. male ACL injuries, it doesn't seem that the incidence is high enough to deter participation.
Parents of female children need to be aware of the risks involved in sports (or any other activity that acutely stresses the skeletal system.) The mantra has been that a girl can do anything a boy can do. And yes, girls can do the same activities and really shine.
In the end though the real world can be an unfair place. Short guys are going to have a lot harder path to basketball greatness than a guy who's 6'8". That's just the nature of the game.
If the hip joint flares out of line with the knee that's going to increase the stress on the ligaments holding the knee together, compared to individuals whose hips and knees are in-line. That's just physics, and physics doesn't care about your philosophy.
Parents need to understand that and make sure their female children know the risks, because again, these type of injuries happen earlier in life for girls; joint reconstruction and rehabilitation is no joke. And a lot of the damage may start well before anyone would consider these athletes "adults." (Ask a ballerina.)
"physics doesn't care about your philosophy."
See? No matter where you look, you find the patriarchy rearing it's ugly head.
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