September 7, 2022

"When the [European Union] began subsidizing wood burning over a decade ago, it was seen as a quick boost for renewable fuel..."

"... and an incentive to move homes and power plants away from coal and gas. Chips and pellets were marketed as a way to turn sawdust waste into green power. Those subsidies gave rise to a booming market, to the point that wood is now Europe’s largest renewable energy source, far ahead of wind and solar. But today, as demand surges amid a Russian energy crunch, whole trees are being harvested for power. And evidence is mounting that Europe’s bet on wood to address climate change has not paid off. Forests in Finland and Estonia, for example, once seen as key assets for reducing carbon from the air, are now the source of so much logging that government scientists consider them carbon emitters.... The industry has become so big that researchers cannot keep track of it. E.U. official research could not identify the source of 120 million metric tons of wood used across the continent last year — a gap bigger than the size of Finland’s entire timber industry. Researchers say most of that probably was burned for heating and electricity...."

146 comments:

MikeR said...

Absolutely surreal.

RideSpaceMountain said...

Well I’m proud to be an American
Where at least I have cheap heat
And I’ll disregard Greta Thurnberg’s cries
As Europeans are burning peat
And I’ll GLAAAAADLY sit down in my house
Enjoying warmth without a care
That toasty breeze
While Europeans seethe
God bless my central air

Temujin said...

I don't know much about EU forestry habits, but I do know that in North America, there is a constant effort to reforest, replant, and replenish lands that have been clear cut, lands that have been devastated by forest fires, lands devastated by infestations. It is estimated that, in the US there are 765 million acres of forested land. This is actually a bit more than the amount estimated in 1907- over 100 years ago. Yet we've built more, heated more. It seems like we've cleared more, but we do seem to cover our tracks.

Honestly, there would be no logging industry if they just clear cut without replenishing their stock.

Europe will survive this, unless the EU Government gets in the way of the people in the industry that know what they're doing.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Combined with shutting down the nuclear generators this is the least green solution one can imagine. Environmentalism is a cult and they are killing the world economy with their insane utopian schemes. This couldn’t have happened in a world where mathematics is taught and commonly understood. When did the Greens repeal the Laws of Thermodynamics?

Bob Boyd said...

Trust the experts.

Jersey Fled said...

Another lefty failure based on a fake crisis.

This is my surprised face.

Enigma said...

Many people start to pray in combat trenches.

Many greens become browns when they are cold.

MayBee said...

Yes! More government in charge of science! They know all the things and understand how to successfully science us into the future!

Beasts of England said...

Why does reality keep interfering with the success of green energy?

Cappy said...

They are risking the wrath of the forest nymphs, fairys, and hobbits.

Karen said...

Burning wood is green? What’s the carbon footprint of all that? In California, we aren’t even allowed most of the time to have a wood fire in our fireplace.

Jersey Fled said...

Quote from Friedrich Hayek:

The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

rehajm said...

Well, if the bloody birds would stop leading on the men the men wouldn’t be burning the place down…

And when I awoke I was alone
This bird had flown
So I lit a fire
Isn't it good
[Finnish and Estonian] wood

Michael said...

How characteristic of Progressives to look ten feet ahead of them and pay no attention to what may be 10 yards ahead. Or ten months vs. ten years if you prefer. It is all performative.

holdfast said...

Remember not so long ago the Europeans also made a big push into diesel cars, because it’s a little more efficient than gasoline - and so has slightly lower CO2 emissions. Too bad about all the NO2, SO2 and other ACTUAL pollutants that ended up blanketing some European cities and causing real health damage.

It’s bad enough that these idiots in power worship mindlessly at the Church of Glow-Ball Worming, but the “solutions” that they impose tend to be truly horrifying - and of course counter-productive to their stated aims. I mean, replacing a modern, efficient natural gas furnace with a particulate-spewing wood stove is dirty and regressive. It’s policy insanity. `

John Borell said...

If only there was some dense, black stuff underground we could use for energy.

And what’s happening in Europe is why one should not formulate energy policy based on the rantings of a twelve year old.

Buckwheathikes said...

You gotta be trying really, really hard to not notice where 120 million metric tons of something disappeared to.

Do these idiots realize that trees consume CO2 and turn it into oxygen?

Jefferson's Revenge said...

The concept that wood would be able to energize actual power and industrial plants and not just homes is insane. We had a small second home for years for skiing and a pellet stove was fine for occasional use on weekends but to think that it could be applied on a large, almost industrial scale is nuts. The volume to heat ratio off and it needs to be transported (trucked) to each individual location, unlike natural gas which comes in a series of eco-friendly pipes. At large scale it is obviously net negative environmentally.

From unchecked immigration to a suicidal energy policy to minimal defense spending it seems like Europe has made every bad decision conceivable in the last 10+ years. Has Merkel's halo worn off yet?

I've always felt that the only thing that held Europe together was their common hatred/jealousy of the US. Without us to despise, they would be at each others' throats again today.

One of the reasons that I think we should be disengaging from our unexplained commitment to Ukraine is that it ties us too closely to Europe.

European leadership- constantly confident and preaching. Also constantly wrong.

B. said...

So unelected bureaucrats make stupid policies?

Creola Soul said...

If you look at old pictures of western Virginia, from around 1860-1870 or so, you see that the Shenandoah mountains were denuded of trees. The trees were cut for household fuel as well as stoking train boilers and firing the foundries. The EU will face a similar situation if they don’t get their energy policy righted. Oh, and of course burning wood produces CO2 and soot.

Static Ping said...

Just because something is plentiful and useful on the small scale does not mean it is plentiful and useful on the large scale. This has been a running theme with the environmentalist movement. Adding a small amount of solar panels and wind turbines to the electrical grid did not cause significant issues, so we can now replace everything with solar panels and wind turbines! Adding a relatively small percentage of electrical cars to the auto fleet worked out fine, so now everyone has to buy electric cars! We had sufficient resources to build all our green technology currently, so if we increase the needs by several orders of magnitude then the resources will be readily available and cost the same!

This is often referred to as magical thinking. I am not sure that is accurate. Magic as it is usually imagined does have limitations on it, so while you can do all sorts of fantastic things, you cannot do literally anything and everything. The green movement is beyond magical thinking. They think they are gods.

Ampersand said...

What did socialists use for heat and power before wood?
Nuclear power.

Lurker21 said...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a lot of carbon in wood?

exhelodrvr1 said...

Isn't it good Norwegian wood

TreeJoe said...

I've been a wood burner in SE PA for 12 years and have studied this a good bit. I had an efficient wood burning stove in my last house and I just built a new home and literally built around a free-standing wood burning stove in the new house with design accomodations to maximize it's heat retention in the home.

The concept that burning wood is a bad carbon emitter is, to some degree, noxious. When trees grow, die, and rot on the ground....their carbon is largely released. When forest fires clean out forests, they emit huge amounts of carbon. And large amounts of wood burning carbon is captured in ash, soot, and creosote that does not enter the atmosphere or immediately returns back to the ground. Meanwhile, you are eliminating energy that would've required power plants or petroleum sources to deliver home heating.

But perhaps also critically important, there are millions of people in Europe and elsewhere who are facing unreliable home heating resources. They may not be able to get adequate fuel from infrastructure OR they may suddenly lose access to what they expected to have (i.e. public gas supply).


Wood burning in a home is an incredible resource. It allows the owner to use their resource on demand, to a degree needed. When hand cut and moved, it requires nothing but calories and maybe an axe to utilize and transport. It provides a semi-durable on-demand home heating resource that can be sourced very close to the home used to heat it.

To denigrate this resource right now is....noxious. Cold hearted (pun intended!). Elitist.

Energy diversification has personal, state, national, and global strategic importance. EVERY form of diversified energy is good to have on tap - Nuclear, Wind, Solar, Geothermal, Bio (i.e. wood), and Petroleum. They all serve purposes. And when you avoid reliance upon one, they all become cheaper and more accessible. And the world becomes a safer place too.

Dave Begley said...

I told the Cass County, Nebraska Planning Commission (including a Mr. Althouse) that the course of human economic history has been faster, cheaper and more efficient. All of this solar, wind and wood energy is all retrograde. We are regressing.

Note well that it is all subsidized.

CAGW is the biggest scam in the history of the world. Nothing else comes close.

mikee said...

Fossil fuels are just finely aged wood. Maybe use that kind of wood.

Lawrence Person said...

So being a tree-hugger means embracing burning trees to keep warm.

NelsonHaHa.jpg

Richard said...

It's probably a surprise to the best and brightest, but people get tired of being cold. Even being chilly gets to be a pain in the butt after not too long.
An awful lot of what is considered old forest came back after Paul Bunyan retired, and when people could heat with gas and oil. Minnesota was almost all white pine. Now the hardwoods which replace the pine provide a pretty neat autumn.
The CCC's planting efforts are sometimes still visible in the lines of trees--mostly pine-visible in places in Michigan which had been logged off.
But, apparently, such considerations are beneath those who themselves will not be cold this winter.

Original Mike said...

My God, who thinks burning wood for fuel is green? We turned to coal when the large cities deforested their surrounding countrysides, now we're going to do it again? This has gotten out of hand. These people are painfully stupid yet they're driving our energy decisions.

Europe Household Electric Bills Estimated to Jump by $2 Trillion Next Year, That’s 12% of Their GDP

Europe is on the way to making itself economically irrelevant. I had two European funds at the beginning of the year. I sold one and am seriously thinking of selling the other one. Their future is bleak.

Howard said...

They are burning Beatles infested Norwegian Wood

chuck said...

And the NY Times is on it! This has been going on for years. The amazing thing about the power transition is the complete lack of planning. To screw things up so badly requires an expertise far above my level.

Ralph L said...

Whenever I think our national government is a dangerous shambles, I can just look at the EU to feel better.

John henry said...

More propaganda that can't even tell us that it is talking about Carbon DIOXIDE A clean gas that we eat in donuts, drink in beer and use to put fires out among other things. It wants us to think that carbon, a dirty nasty solid like coal and graphite and soot is being emitted by the trees.

This is nothing more or less than propaganda. Nobody claims that atmospheric carbon in a problem. The problem, allegedly, is 0.04% carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

But my real comment is that trees are only carbon dioxide sinks when they are growing. When they are cut down or die, they release all the CO2 that they have absorbed over their lifetime. This can be slow, natural rotting or fast as in burning. Or it may not occur for 100 years such as lumber used in houses or millions, coal and oil.

But it always comes out eventually. Why anyone would think that burning trees would be better for the environment than buring coal, NG or oil just baffles me.

In addition to the alleged problem of releasing CO2, it also creates smoke and particulates.

John Stop fascism, vote republican Henry

Randomizer said...

In the US, the EPA has been tightening up regulations on emissions from wood burning stoves. The regulations are overkill as most people who burn wood don't live in densely populated areas. Wood burning is seen as carbon neutral as the carbon dioxide that is released was taken in by the trees as they grow.

It's difficult to believe that ancient forests in Europe are being logged for firewood. Lumber and hardwood are more valuable. Perhaps the economics are different, but the wood burners I know all source their wood from landscaping companies and their own dead or downed trees.

Kate said...

Wood burning ruins air quality, especially if everyone in a city uses it. We've known this for hundreds of years. My entire youth was inundated with worry about diminishing forests, which seems to have been blithely forgotten.

I don't blame Gen Z for wanting the Boomers to get out of the way.

Robert Marshall said...

They'll probably be burning the dining room furniture before this winter is done.

For comic relief, replay the scene from a few years ago, where Trump warns Europe that relying on Russia's Nord Stream gas pipeline is dangerous, and the entire German delegation laugh at him like he's an idiot.

Who's laughing now, Jerry?

Original Mike said...

It took 7 times more land to grow the same amount of food before modern agricultural methods, yet we're supposed to go back to "organic" farming and eat only plants because it's somehow better for the environment. It took 100 times more land to produce charcoal to cook and heat before we turned to fossil fuels, but apparently burning wood is better for the environment. Our unwillingness or inability to teach simple history will be the ruin of us.

wild chicken said...

Is this why Carole King is on TV telling US to stopping cutting down trees?

I switched the channel. Not a lot of logging going on around Montana anymore. I mean, minimal.

tim maguire said...

Since the 70's the earth has become much greener. How ironic (and yet unsurprising) that the environmental movement is devastating our forests. When was the last time the greens did something good for the environment?

JK Brown said...

Europes first "wood crisis" was in the 12th century. Coal saved the forests. But it's nice to be back in the Dark Ages, no?

"By 1230, England had cut down so many trees for construction and for fuel that it was importing most of its timber from Scandinavia, and turned to what would then have been called an alternative energy source: Coal. "
--William Rosen, 'The Most Powerful Idea in the World'

Tina Trent said...

Yet we still have substantial tax credits here for those who buy wood pellet or 75% plus HHV clean burning wood stoves. I'm shopping for one, which is why I found out about the tax credit. It's large and even larger this year.

Aggie said...

The comments almost write themselves, don't they?

R C Belaire said...

"E.U. official research could not identify the source of 120 million metric tons of wood used across the continent last year..."

Government doing what government does best: Raising incompetence well beyond Peter Principle levels. And yet they'll continue to claim the Climate Beast is being tamed.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Wait. “Carbon dioxide” you say? OMG there’s poison in my Coke can!

Levi Starks said...

The good news is that increased CO2 levels have caused an increased greening of the planet.
So Bonus!
There’s more wood to burn.

Yancey Ward said...

This sort of thing is what happens when you elect clowns as leaders.

Aggie said...

You know, it's not as if the EU leadership decided to clear cut the old-growth forests intentionally. It's not as if they set strict (wrong-headed) CO2 regulations and then proceeded to willfully blow past them, it's not as if they shuttered functional nuclear power plants because they preferred wood, it's not as if they foolishly put sanctions and price caps on energy from a hostile foreign power - it's just that they failed to make a plan that considered the consequences, and they seem to be still making it up as they go along.

Often wrong, but never uncertain. These myopic leaders are on their way to becoming society's new heretics this winter. They'll be burning them at the stake - not because they're witches, but just to keep from freezing.

Howard said...

The USA has enjoyed a huge improvement in water and air quality since the USEPA was established. In addition, wildlife is roaring back to becoming a nuisance once again. In fact, the US leads the world in pollution control technology and has crushed Europe with CO2 reductions. If you people had your way back then, the US would still be polluted like China.

Your Welcome!

GRW3 said...

It will be interesting to see how this works this winter. Burning wood cleanly requires special equipment. Elsewise think about putting would in your smoker, you get lots of smoke. I suspect this wood use will expand to the increased use of fireplaces. That has some issues. Here, most people use their fireplaces for ambiance reasons and don't run them aggressively to heat their house. Doing the latter will generate a lot more smoke and, cummatively, it could have real air quality issues. Over here there are a lot of decorative fireplaces that can only be used with specialized clean burn synthetic logs or a gas insert. There have been fires in houses where people tried to use wood in them, the wood resides colleting on the inside of the aluminum flu and then catching on fire. I wonder if there are many such decorative fireplaces in UK/Europe.

Paul said...

I thought killing forrest was bad bad double ungood among the greens?

I mean 'save the rain forrest' stuff?

And think of the burning wood... air pollution! That is double ungood to!

Hypocrites!

Dude1394 said...

So will California have ANY trees left once they go to all electric cars?

As Thomas Sowell said, green zealots never think past phase 1 economics.

tommyesq said...

Something about a Lorax...

Drago said...

Howard: "The USA has enjoyed a huge improvement in water and air quality since the USEPA was established. In addition, wildlife is roaring back to becoming a nuisance once again. In fact, the US leads the world in pollution control technology and has crushed Europe with CO2 reductions. If you people had your way back then, the US would still be polluted like China."

LOL

Too funny.

Howard, Team Left/Democratical/GOPe has ENSURED that your ChiCom allies can massively pollute and NEVER pay a trade/economic price for it! EVER! And then your team rewards your ChiCom allies with even MORE US jobs and work!

Your ChiCom allies have singlehandedly wiped out all of your stupid Greta Thunberg-driven "science-y" CO2 "gains"....and all with your permission, and blessing, and best wishes and promises of more to come.

But I guess it has been worth it for you. It kept Hunter in crack and underage trafficked prostitutes.

Congrats!

tim in vermont said...

Fracking and nuclear power are the way forward. Environmentalists have fought both hammer and tongs, probably subsidized by Putin, as Hillary claimed in that leaked speech a few years back.

Gospace said...

Europe imports wood pellets from teh USA. I don't see any other mention of this.

from biomassmagazine.com:

USDA: US wood pellet exports expand in November
By Erin Voegele | January 06, 2022

The U.S. exported 764,259.6 metric tons of wood pellets in November, up from both 422,109.4 metric tons in October and 660,312.5 metric tons in November 2020, according to data released by the USDA Foreign Agricultural Service on Jan. 6.

The U.S. exported wood pellets to more than a dozen countries in November.


Now if we opened the USA up to fracking again, and built pipelines and LNG export terminals, we could be delivering boatloads of LNG to Europe. They have the receiving ports already in place.

Solid fuel in any form is a royal PIA to burn. Especially in a firetube boiler. Really, unless you're producing wood pellets and chips and irregular wood chunks as waste from your sawmill, there's no good reason to burn wood when ANYTHING else is available. I have a wood stove and 8½ acres and enough wood already cut, dried, and stacked I could go all winter heating my house without using the oil fired boiler. With the boiler and a thermostat the temperature varies from 69-71 when set at 70. With the wood burning stove the temperature varies from too hot to too cold. It's for emergency use only.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

John Borell said...

If only there was some dense, black stuff underground we could use for energy.

I'm sure the Euros long for the days when they had those terrible black smogs that killed young children and old people who had respiratory issues.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

I would have loved to have been in the NYT editorial meeting for this story. I'm sure there was quite a lively fight over whether to spin this as a bad thing or laud the health benefits of spending a good chunk of your day chopping wood to keep warm.

LA_Bob said...

All this hand-wringing over the Europeans burning wood! Folks, it's only temporary to get them through while we wait for Russia to see the error of its ways and resume its position as Fueling Station to Europe.

From there, it's a short, proud march to Wind and Solar and Clean Energy in perpetuity! Relax, the Euros have this, uh, Stuff all figured out and under control.

Beasts of England said...

‘If you people had your way back then…’

You mean a Republican president named Richard Nixon who created the agency?

Original Mike said...

Another Round Of Rolling Blackouts In California

Temperatures in California, particularly in the Bay Area, are indeed running unusually hot, although in most cases not all-time records. You won’t be surprised to learn that one mainstream press source after another attributes the power shortage and resulting blackouts to “climate change.” But the funny thing is, as hot as the temperatures are, they are no hotter than temperatures experienced this year — and indeed every year — in other states like Arizona and Texas. And yet those states are not having rolling blackouts caused by inadequate electricity on the grid. Nor have those states had rolling blackouts in other years when their all-time record temperatures have been set.

In other words, these blackouts have essentially nothing to do with “climate change,” and everything to do with criminally incompetent government policy supposedly responding to “climate change.”

LakeLevel said...

There have been massive global unintended consequences of Europe's fixation on renewable energy. One example: I was in Costa Rica around 2014. I could see massive clouds of smoke rising from the Pacific coastal plains. I asked a local what's with the forest fires. He told me that the forests were being burned to make way for palm oil plantations, for renewable fuel for Europe. If you google earth those areas south of San Juan, the forests are gone. What looks like forest turns into neat rows of palm oil palms when you zoom in.

LakeLevel said...

Of course now that Europe's forests are at risk, it's an issue. Costa Rica, not so much.

Flat Tire said...

I've been heating with wood for 50 years with only the wood from often massive oaks that came down on this ranch. California's ban on chainsaws in 2024 will be disaster but Newsom will be happy I guess. Splitting them without a wood splitter will be hopeless.

pacwest said...

Dung.

R C Belaire said...

@ Howard, 9:52 -
My understanding is that the majority of US CO2 reductions are due to burning natural gas as opposed to coal. Other measures are secondary. So, still a "fossil" fuel but more benign.

Lars Porsena said...

Auf Wiedersehen, Schwartzwald!

Jefferson's Revenge said...

Howard- Nixon created the EPA and the pollution control technology you mentioned was developed by the private sector. Also, the crushing of Europe in CO2 emissions comes from fracking and natural gas. Gas is a very clean source of energy.

Let's not let the facts get in the way of the narrative though.

cubanbob said...

I hope the Europeans freeze this winter. It will knock back their arrogance and condescension and possibly put their stupidity in remission. I suggest they burn Greens this winter for heat, it's not Greens have any real value.


Howard you never miss an opportunity to get things wrong. Try the concept of scalability along with the concept that the difference between a poison and a drug is the dosage.

cubanbob said...

I hope the Europeans freeze this winter. It will knock back their arrogance and condescension and possibly put their stupidity in remission. I suggest they burn Greens this winter for heat, it's not Greens have any real value.


Howard you never miss an opportunity to get things wrong. Try the concept of scalability along with the concept that the difference between a poison and a drug is the dosage.

cfs said...

Okay. We can't heat and cool with nuclear power, nor coal, nor gas and oil, and now wood. Is sun and wind the only energy sources we are allowed?

Also, are the ones currently promoting the use of solar and wind using only those two sources to heat, cool, and light their homes and businesses? Are they using products manufactured only with solar and wind power? If not. Why not?

Some of you might be fine with sitting in the dark and alternately freezing or burning up, but I'll not participate in such foolishness, thank you very much.

cfs said...

Okay. We can't heat and cool with nuclear power, nor coal, nor gas and oil, and now wood. Is sun and wind the only energy sources we are allowed?

Also, are the ones currently promoting the use of solar and wind using only those two sources to heat, cool, and light their homes and businesses? Are they using products manufactured only with solar and wind power? If not. Why not?

Some of you might be fine with sitting in the dark and alternately freezing or burning up, but I'll not participate in such foolishness, thank you very much.

Richard said...

"Before the industrial revolution, our energy needs were modest. For heat, we relied on the sun—and burned wood, straw, and dried dung when the sun failed us. For transportation, the muscle of horses and the power of the wind in our sails took us to every corner of the world. For work, we used animals to do jobs that we couldn't do with our own labor. Water and wind drove the simple machines that ground our grain and pumped our water."**

The environmentalists are taking us back to the future!

**From an article written by the Union of Concerned Scientists

walter said...

Please excuse Howie's attempt at distraction.
He's had exposure to both industrial waste and multiple jabs.
He'll have this same retort when folks are burning furniture for heat.
Semper Fudd!!

Inga said...

Are people here actually happy that Russia invaded Ukraine and because of sanctions for doing so by European countries, they will pay the price by being cut off of natural gas this winter? Is that a good thing to you people? Do you think Russia was right in invading a sovereign country? Why do you sound positively thrilled that Europe and Germany in particular will have a hard time keeping warm this winter? I really must ask once again, what is wrong with you people? Are you trying to make Biden’s words about you true?
—————————————————

An excellent comment from TreeJoe…

“Wood burning in a home is an incredible resource. It allows the owner to use their resource on demand, to a degree needed. When hand cut and moved, it requires nothing but calories and maybe an axe to utilize and transport. It provides a semi-durable on-demand home heating resource that can be sourced very close to the home used to heat it.

To denigrate this resource right now is....noxious. Cold hearted (pun intended!). Elitist.”

walter said...

We have one pellet burner in our subdivision. You definitely know when it's working.

Michael K said...

Howard:

If you people had your way back then, the US would still be polluted like China.

Howard does not seem to remember when everyone supported clean air and water. That was before greenies went crazy. Do you know who started the EPA, Howard? Nixon.

Robert Marshall said...

Howard celebrates the establishment of the US EPA, telling us that "[i]f you people had your way back then, the US would still be polluted like China. Your [sic] Welcome!"

Well, Howard, guess which (Democrat?) president established the EPA?

Trick question! None. It was Tricky Dick Nixon, a Republican!

Not one of the Socialists in the Democrat crowd. Wealthy capitalist countries are far cleaner than the Commie dumps of the old USSR, Eastern Europe, China, Cuba, etc.

Michael K said...

"By 1230, England had cut down so many trees for construction and for fuel that it was importing most of its timber from Scandinavia, and turned to what would then have been called an alternative energy source: Coal. "

After the forest recovered, they were cut down for charcoal as iron began to be used for the early Industrial Revolution. By 1700 the Royal Navy was importing wood for ship building

Carol said...

This is especially funny considering how hard cities like Missoula worked to outlaw wood stoves. They had the worst air in the country between wood stoves, seven teepee burners and oh yeah vehicles.

Yet when I first got here in 1975 singles ads regularly specced "wood stove type" meaning rustic hippie-dippie I guess.

Anyway it was a battle for the ages with wood burners mobbing council meetings to call them all a bunch of communists.

The City won and outlawed all new wood stoves in the airshed. Now they banned all new natgas starting 2030.

Where does electricity come from, anyway?

Mason G said...

"Chips and pellets were marketed as a way to turn sawdust waste into green power."

"Forests in Finland and Estonia, for example, once seen as key assets for reducing carbon from the air, are now the source of so much logging that government scientists consider them carbon emitters"

Supporters of "green power" are turning carbon reducing forests into carbon emitters? Seems to be a disconnect here...

J Melcher said...

Mike says: [wood burning] is the least green solution one can imagine.

Does using fossil fuel to make fertilizer to grow corn to make alcohol to replace a percentage of fossil fuels in automobiles come in as second-least green?

Butkus51 said...

Hey Howard, turn off the computer. Youre wasting energy needlessly. Practice what you preach.

Or you can wait for Gavin to force it on you.

Sucker



chuck said...

Your Welcome!

Don't thank me, thank Nixon.

Static Ping said...

Howard, there is a point there, but not the one you think it is.

The problem with environmentalism, as is with many different movements, is diminishing returns. The first steps are typically obvious, ones that produce massive benefits and/or are cheap to implement. The problem is after you complete those big early gains, the next steps are significantly less useful. The trick with these sort of things is to know where to stop, to figure out when that next step is not worth the cost, at least not right now. The environmental movement is, essentially, fanatical and the cost is irrelevant to them. And when you start pushing more and more extreme steps, then you need coercion, which is when the government gets more and more involved. And the government bureaucracy typically does not care about much of anything other than the government bureaucracy. So, sure, they will push extremely painful but environmentally dubious policies not because they care about the environment but because they care about their own jobs and their own well being. They are mercenaries for hire, essentially.

This is further exacerbated by the unholy alliance of environmentalists and government not understanding how any of this actually works. The electrical grid cannot handle everyone having electric cars, and it is not clear that electric cars are any better for the environment in the first place. Solar and wind power are unreliable and cannot be used as a basis of functional grid except in very niche circumstances. There are simply not enough resources to make all their dreams come true. There's also the matter that environmentalists seem to have a very "out of sight, out of mind" view of their goals, as if a small reduction in pollution in the United States is a big win, despite it causing a lot more pollution in China where they are getting their solar panels and wind turbines. These people are genuine fools, and the fools are making policy.

alanc709 said...

Howard:

If you people had your way back then, the US would still be polluted like China.

Come visit downtown Seattle, if you want to see garbage strewn everywhere. Any city that caters to the homeless "crisis" looks like a landfill.

Jimmy said...

'You people'. When facts fail you, resort to putting people in convenient boxes. Makes it so much easier to be self righteous, being a member of the elite.
Do we wear arm bands next, or will our love of American flags be enough to id us for censure?
So easy to slip, and show 'you people' your true nature.

Howard said...

Since Obama killed coal, the Northeast air quality is close to pristine. Natural gas is the best fossil fuel bridge to nuclear. Too many boomers bought into the China Syndrome then Chernobyl confirmed their worst fears. Coal is filthy and the particles increase global warming at half of the CO2 rate. Burning wood at scale is brain damage. Nixon was a liberal.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

You hurt my brain Melcher. No, my proposal is now in second place to your biofuel boondoggle. Hard to outcrazy evironmentalists.

traditionalguy said...

The Peach State is no longer boasting about its peaches. Nor its cotton nor its peanuts. We now are boasting about loads wood pellets put on ships headed from Savannah to England. “ Tall as a Georgia pine” entered the language when Yankees marched through in the winter of 65.

Amazingly the southeastern third of Georgia’s timberland was bought up by Europeans starting in the early 1990s. The State Bar had to cooperate with the Legislature to change Real Property laws to facilitate the mass purchases.

But deforestation was never an issue. The timber industry is flourishing in an area that planted trees in the depression years. The old widows and heirs are happy to sell. The owners can just plant more trees

jpg said...

I know we are f'ed, too, but BwAHAHA!

Richard Dolan said...

Some will remember Planet of the Humans, by Michael Moore (yes, that Michael Moore) who exposed a tree-burning power plant in either NH or Maine (forget which), where the proprietors tried to stop his crew from filming. His film is still available on youTube. The facility was billed as a 'renewable' one but the owners wanted to be vague about just what was being renewed -- didn't want publicity about all the CO2 to say nothing of the forest clearing. That wasn't his only target among the sacred cows of Green Eco-Land -- some sharp take-downs of the solar-power pushers too, among many other targets.

There was a lot of griping when he released that film, and it must have been a real bummer for the tree-burners and eco-freaks being exposed by an uber-lefty.

Original Mike said...

"I really must ask once again, what is wrong with you people?"

I'd ask you to stop sticking words in other people's mouths.

hombre said...

"... burning timber for green power." Really?

I'm not up for reading NYT caca, so I don't know what "green" means in this context. However, when I lived in New Zealand there was a drive to reduce reliance on wood burners for heat due to the high incidence of respiratory afflictions, particularly in children, associated with the smoke.

Additionally, I have never heard the term "green power" associated with deforestation.

cubanbob said...

Inga has it possibly occurred to you that Europe is going to suffer from its own stupidity? Had they not gotten so dependent on Russian energy they would not be in the position they are in. Reagan warned them. Trump warned them and they laughed at him. Energy suppliers just like investment portfolios should be diversified and invested in reliable sources. Green isn't. Nuclear and natural gas is. Developing homegrown is best.

hombre said...

Blogger Howard said...

"They are burning Beatles infested Norwegian Wood."

Funny how the excerpt said the EU cannot race the source of millions of metric tons of the wood, but Howard knows.

We are lucky to have him. LOL!

Beasts of England said...

‘Are people here actually happy that Russia invaded Ukraine and because of sanctions for doing so by European countries, they will pay the price by being cut off of natural gas this winter?’

I’m thrilled they’re soon to learn a valuable lesson, re: the folly of green energy.

Michael K said...

Inga said...

Are people here actually happy that Russia invaded Ukraine and because of sanctions for doing so by European countries, they will pay the price by being cut off of natural gas this winter?


Only Burisma Joe could have done this, you idiot. The Europeans chose to go "green" and are now paying the price Brandon wants for us.

Michael K said...

Take it easy on Howard, guys. He went through Marine basic (he says) and part of that is learning to butt your head through a brick wall. Some of them come out of that OK.

Original Mike said...

If Western governments were responsible stewards of their people's energy needs, Putin wouldn't be in a position to blackmail us. But isn't it so convenient to scapegoat the consequences of their mismanagement on a thug? Is it disingenuous to label people pointing out Europe's insane energy policies as pro-Putin. Stop it. It is tiresome.

Ambrose said...

Markets work.

What's emanating from your penumbra said...

What do you mean by "unintended consequences?" We have a planet to save!

Drago said...

Inga: "Are people here actually happy that Russia invaded Ukraine..."

Putin took Crimea under obama.
Putin did nothing while Trump was President.
Putin invaded the Eastern Ukraine under Biden.
Putin and russia have reaped many excess financial awards under obambi and Slow Joe, none under Trump.

Now, dont you have another lie-filled hoax to push? Do you really have time for another ignorance-driven moronic sojourn into geopolitics and global economics?

Mason G said...

"I'm not up for reading NYT caca, so I don't know what "green" means in this context."

The answer is: Whatever the left needs it to be today. Tomorrow? Different answer.

You might as well ask what a woman is.

Narayanan said...

Jersey Fled said...
Quote from Friedrich Hayek:

The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
==========
can anybody explain what these words mean in clear language?


Narayanan said...

It will be interesting to see nightview satellite images of Europe and N Korea side by side

has anybody updated those?

Curious George said...

"By 1700 the Royal Navy was importing wood for ship building"

I wouldn't call it importing...but England said that all trees in the colonies bigger than a certain diameter were the "property of the King." So the colonists responded with a fuck you by cutting them down. Hence the scarcity of Southern Long Leaf Yellow pine.

Jersey Fled said...

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
==========
can anybody explain what these words mean in clear language?"

You need better than a 5th grade education to understand it.

TickTock said...

Someone (somemany?) confused renewable with carbon neutral ...

Buckwheathikes said...

There's going to be a record number of people who freeze to death this winter due to the mismanagement of the economy by their leaders and the "experts" are going to marvel at how "unexpected" it all was.

It's expected. I'm telling the experts that it IS GOING TO HAPPEN. And there's nothing that can be done about it. It's too late. Those people are just going to die and there is nothing unexpected about it.

n.n said...

How very green. It's Green, not green.

Inga said...

“Inga has it possibly occurred to you that Europe is going to suffer from its own stupidity?”

Has it occurred to you Cubanbob that the shortage of baby formula was due to the US’ own stupidity? Good thing Europe didn’t think the way selfish Trumpists think because they very generously sent us planeloads of baby formula to help us in our need.

The Vault Dweller said...

Wood Burning can be a couple of orders of magnitude more polluting than even that terrible, nasty, absolutely not at all acceptable coal. PM 2.5 Emissions of Wood v. Coal In most developing countries going from a wood burning stove to a coal burning one is an upgrade. PM 2.5 pollutants can cause serious and chronic health problems in a population. If people want to use wood that is fine, but these people are being excluded from what many would find to be a better option, burning coal, by bad energy policies.

Joe Smith said...

And they'll be burning their fine wood furniture this winter.

Oh well...

Aggie said...

Blogger Howard said...

"Since Obama killed coal, the Northeast air quality is close to pristine...."

Nope, not even close. What cleaned up the air in the NE was the realization of acid rain derived from SO2 and other noxious outputs, from coal-fired plants, as well as other polluting endeavors. The cleanup started well before St. Obama; the environmental science data was starting to come in by the early 90's and policy decisions were being made accordingly. One of the other big polluters in the NE area were the paper & pulp mills. Each had its own noxious aroma being pumped straight into the air, while the liquid fraction went straight into the rivers. I grew up forecasting the weather depending upon which mill was being smelled that morning - you got to where you knew the smell of each one. And it was a lot worse when it got foggy, which on the Maine coast, is often.

'The air is clean now because Obama'. Now that's funny, right there.

Robert Marshall said...

Narayanan asked about the Hayek quote:

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."

I'm not the guy who offered the quote (that was Jersey Fled), so I'm taking a chance here, but I think it means that old-style central planning (which lately seems to be making an unfortunate comeback) is an exercise in futility, because it is not possible for even the most informed central planning bureaucrat to know what needs to be known to make sound economic decisions.

That's what markets are for: consolidating and distilling the wisdom of crowds of people who don't even know each other.

Howard said...

You got me dead to rights, hombre.

effinayright said...

hombre said...
Blogger Howard said...

"They are burning Beatles infested Norwegian Wood."

Funny how the excerpt said the EU cannot (t)race the source of millions of metric tons of the wood, but Howard knows.

We are lucky to have him. LOL!
***************

Yes. Howard deserves the "Thanks of a Grateful Nation."

snort

effinayright said...

Narayanan said...
Jersey Fled said...
Quote from Friedrich Hayek:

The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
==========
can anybody explain what these words mean in clear language?
*****************
Progressive economic planners don't know what they don't know.

See Dunning-Kruger effect

Spiros Pappas said...

My grandmother had a wood burning stove in Greece. Heat was good but no hot water.

cfs said...

In the rural area in which I live, the farmers and land owners are a lot better stewards of the land than any "greenie" in Greenwich Village. People replant timber when it is cut down for lumber. We have food plots for deer, which all the animals enjoy. We clear up dead-fall in the forests to use for our wood stoves in the winter plus make sure the creeks and streams are protected from harmful run off. You seldom see reports of large forest fires in the south, even when lightening starts a fire. That's because we maintain the timberland so that it does not have a lot of on-ground fuel to burn.

Original Mike said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cfs said...

In the rural area in which I live, the farmers and land owners are a lot better stewards of the land than any "greenie" in Greenwich Village. People replant timber when it is cut down for lumber. We have food plots for deer, which all the animals enjoy. We clear up dead-fall in the forests to use for our wood stoves in the winter plus make sure the creeks and streams are protected from harmful run off. You seldom see reports of large forest fires in the south, even when lightening starts a fire. That's because we maintain the timberland so that it does not have a lot of on-ground fuel to burn.

Drago said...

Inga: "Has it occurred to you Cubanbob that the shortage of baby formula was due to the US’ own stupidity?"

LOL

Oh, so now its the "US's" fault.

The entire US!

What a strange and very very vague comment.

Oh wait, thats right! It's the dems in complete control so naturally, we all have to share the blame New Soviet Democratical failure!

But notice how Inga works in "Trumpists" by name! This is similar to how Inga blames republican Christians in the US everytime her islamic supremacist allies commit an atrocity.

Original Mike said...

"Good thing Europe didn’t think the way selfish Trumpists think because they very generously sent us planeloads of baby formula to help us in our need."

And we're to ship Europe energy how?

Josephbleau said...

“The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
==========
can anybody explain what these words mean in clear language?”

Future real world economic outcomes demonstrate that humans can’t predict the benefits or losses of the systems they create.

Jim at said...

Good thing Europe didn’t think the way selfish Trumpists think because they very generously sent us planeloads of baby formula to help us in our need.

Yeah. Bailing their asses out of two world wars - and protected their backsides for the last century (not to mention the Berlin airlift) - is now all even steven because they sent us some formula because your administration shut down the main producer here.

How fucking selfish of us.

The point we're making is we warned them - time and again - not to be reliant on Russia for fuel. We warned them - time and again - their 'green' policies will come back to bite them in the ass.

So you'll pardon me if I don't care if they freeze their asses off because they failed to heed numerous warnings.

Michael K said...

Good thing Europe didn’t think the way selfish Trumpists think because they very generously sent us planeloads of baby formula to help us in our need.

The dullard has another brain wave. What did "Trumpists" deny Europe? We sent them liquefied natural gas, Trump warned them about Russia and energy policy. Told them to up their NATO contributions.

You lefties seem happy that Biden started the war in Ukraine.

Jamie said...

The electrical grid cannot handle everyone having electric cars, and it is not clear that electric cars are any better for the environment in the first place.

I'm visiting family in CA for a bit, and I'm sure everyone is aware of the new diktat that by - 2035 is it? - you'll no longer be able to buy a gasoline-powered car here. Simultaneously with all the high-fiving over that, there's been a voluntary electricity usage reduction going on because of a heat wave, with owners of e-vehicles specifically asked not to charge their cars during peak hours (4-9pm) to avoid rolling blackouts (yes, a/c is a big factor too, I'm sure - though man, I wish it were even an extant factor at my in-laws' house, as they don't have it and it's been like living in the 1950s Midwest since we got here). And simultaneously with that, there was an article saying that the CA grid can support up to 5 million e-vehicles (there are fewer than a million on the road here at present).

Simultaneously with that, we're noting the fact that my in-laws' street is positively lined with parked cars these days - it seems that there are a lot of adult family members living together in single family homes here. We're wondering if they'll just have to run extension cords out there - to say nothing of my son's neighborhood in LA where virtually all parking is street parking.

CA has a lot to accomplish in the next decade.

Gospace said...

Inga said...
“Inga has it possibly occurred to you that Europe is going to suffer from its own stupidity?”

Has it occurred to you Cubanbob that the shortage of baby formula was due to the US’ own stupidity? Good thing Europe didn’t think the way selfish Trumpists think because they very generously sent us planeloads of baby formula to help us in our need.


Wow. What a colossal display of ignorance. Our formula shortage was caused by government action, period. First shutting down the one major US production plant, then complete inaction in recertifting the plant to resume production. Actions taken by the DemoncRAT administation of brain addled Biden The planeloads of formula brought here from Europe were bought and paid for by our goernment, not donated by the generous Europeans, which is a contradiction in terms anyway, and ferried here by US military aircraft. And- were a drop in the bucket of daily US needs.

Industry could have imported formula directly in smooth seamless commercial transactions- but our government has rules on formula production that pretty much prevent import of that particular item.

Gahrie said...

Has it occurred to you Cubanbob that the shortage of baby formula was due to the US’ own stupidity?

You almost found that nut you blind squirrel you... It was the Biden administration's stupidity.

Good thing Europe didn’t think the way selfish Trumpists think because they very generously sent us planeloads of baby formula to help us in our need.

They sold us baby formula. And every study ever done proves that conservatives are more charitable and generous than liberals and progressives.

Original Mike said...

Yeah, I liked Inga blaming the baby formula shortage on "us". I suppose it's "our" fault too that the EPA is shutting down LNG production so we meanies can't ship LNG to Europe: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/epa-denies-cheniere-energy-request-lng-pollution-waiver-89424115

Narr said...

"Where does electricity come from?"

Ohh! Me! Me! I know!

The wall.

Before the Boston Tea Party there was the Pine Tree Riot, in which American colonists clashed with British authorities over who could fell the biggest, straightest trees, which were needed for the masts of the ships-of-the-line of the Royal Navy, and which the Admiralty claimed as a strategic resource. The colonists saw things differently.

Officials were employed to find and mark the best trees; the Riot was a direct inspiration to the BTP and the source of the pine tree imagery on early American flags.

(Details courtesy of Ennos's book "The Age of Wood.")



Michael K said...

According to the U.S. Energy Information Association (IEA), U.S. storage of Liquified Natural Gas (LNG) is 12% below the five-year average (LINK). Additionally, the IEA is expecting the U.S. to export 11.7 billion cubic feet of LNG per day during the fourth quarter of 2022 — up 17% from the third quarter. The destination of that export is Europe.

Consider that 43% of U.S. households use LNG for home heating, and power suppliers use LNG to create electricity. With the massive 2022 exports of LNG to Europe (+17% in fourth quarter alone), that means lower domestic supplies and increased prices here in the United States for electricity and home heating. We are seeing and feeling these massive price increases right now. As a result, consider this reality….

Not only are U.S. taxpayers directly paying for the majority of costs in Ukraine, but we are also subsidizing the European Union by exporting LNG and driving up the price here at home.


News for the resident dullard.

effinayright said...

Joe said:
"Wood burning in a home is an incredible resource. It allows the owner to use their resource on demand, to a degree needed. When hand cut and moved, it requires nothing but calories and maybe an axe to utilize and transport. It provides a semi-durable on-demand home heating resource that can be sourced very close to the home used to heat it."
***************

How about an actual analysis of how much labor it takes to cut, haul and stack a cord of wood, and how many cords to heat a standard home for a month? What's the total?

Then compare that to heating with gas, oil or electric.

Might not be so "incredible" after all. Especially for people living in urban areas, or without the stamina and resources to do all that work.

And let's not forget that during their lives trees produce oxygen. Sure, they might be renewable----but are YOU doing/paying for the reforestation yourself, or you just assuming others will?

BUMBLE BEE said...

Back in 79 I was reading about pollution in Denver because of woodstoves. Catalytic exhaust was kicked around for all stoves. Jotul ruled the industry for efficiency back then. Did some googling and true to form, bless my Oshkosh Bibs, Mother Earth has a D.I.Y. for it.
https://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/wood-stove-catalytic-converter-zmaz83jfzraw/
I remember their electric car D.I.Y. being a surplus jet engine starter motor and a small gas engine powering the electrical generator. Real Futuristic Howie!

Mason G said...

"The electrical grid cannot handle everyone having electric cars..."

Democrats don't want people to have cars and a transition to EVs is how they're going to accomplish this goal.

"There's not enough electricity to go around so unfortunately, you (and you and you and you) aren't going to be permitted to own one."

Mason G said...

"And every study ever done proves that conservatives are more charitable and generous than liberals and progressives."

Not with other people's money.

effinayright said...

Blogger Howard said...

"Since Obama killed coal, the Northeast air quality is close to pristine...."
*************************
Bushwa.

Coal-fired energy plants have been declining in New England since 2005, well before the Lightbringer waved his magic twanger at the problem.

In any case, shut=downs need to be phased out while alternative sources come on line to replace them.

That's what California is NOT doing.

In Mass., Beatific Baraka also prevented new gas pipeline construction to make up for the loss of coal. Energy prices are already very high here as a result----they are gong to get worse.

Better buy a barrel of elbow grease, Howard: you're going to be spending a lot of time splitting wood this winter!

See this article:

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42716

and this graph:

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2020.02.04/main.svg

The Godfather said...

I live in NC. This is one of the places where forested lots are being clear-cut to provide wood (pellets) to Europe. It's "renewable" if the clear-cut lands are replanted (renewed after how many decades?). But they don't seem to be replanting them. After clearing the land, the owners seem to be waiting for the subdivision developers. Not just in NC. Same thing seems to be going on in SC and GA. (Since the pandemic, we haven't been driving north or west.)

Narr said...

"Obama's magic twanger"

These parts, we'd say 'wanger.' Obama's magic wanger. Just one of those regional differences that make the American language so much fun.

The house we moved into on the last day of first grade, so, 1960(?) was a standard 3/2 1500 sf with a brick hearth and fireplace. For some years after I became senior guy (I was always the most mature) I was main firestarter and keeper.

Years later the wood paneling above the hearth caught fire; it was put out quickly and the paneling replaced with brick.

During the severe ice storm of '94, while my mother was at her sister's who had power, my brothers stayed in the house and relied on the fireplace for all their heat for a couple of
weeks. Batteries for the radio, plenty of drugs, some cards and a chess set, and they were set.

We have a gas fireplace here, operational when we moved in but never used. But neither natural wood or natural gas fp's actually heat efficiently, and good firewood is aged and dried. Trust me, it makes a difference.

Perhaps the Euros will revert to those great porcelain stoves that used to crowd the corners of palaces?

walter said...

Jamie said...CA has a lot to accomplish in the next decade.
--
No worries. They did great with that train...

walter said...

Eff',
Though Howie cheered it, I still can't be;ieve how R's failed to bludgeon Obama mercilessly with his promise "necessarily skyrocket" energy costs.
It's REALLY stupid for a New Englander to cheer that.
But then..Semper Fudd!

KellyM said...

effinayright said..

"How about an actual analysis of how much labor it takes to cut, haul and stack a cord of wood, and how many cords to heat a standard home for a month? What's the total?"

Depends. Do you quantify the labor in terms of hourly wages or the total contribution of effort to a family unit? Do you add it in with the other labor intensive things like gardening or raising animals? Or even minding the younger siblings?

Growing up, it took anywhere from eight to ten cord of wood to heat our modest three bedroom house from November to April. In remote northern Vermont where the temps in February easily dropped to -40F at night. A giant load of logs was dumped at our house in early spring even before the snow had completely melted. Working a few hours each weekend, my dad blocked the logs, and split them by hand. He'd let them dry in piles a little before they were put in the drying sheds for the summer. Stacking wood was something that you did a couple of summer evenings a week when the weather was good. Otherwise you were trying to keep up with the garden and freeze and can as much produce as possible.

By midsummer the original log pile was gone, but the drying sheds were filled to capacity. Then, in September and October those stacks were transported across the field, and thrown into the basement wood room where they were stacked again. I guess you could say that the labor expended was greater than the value of the wood, but it was what was expected. It taught me the value of hard work and sacrifice.

As an aside, I also stood at the kitchen sink with my mother on late fall evenings as freshly killed turkeys were brought in by my father to be washed and prepped for freezing. Not what a teenage girl would have preferred doing, but I liked to eat.

@Farmgirl, I wouldn't be surprised if your experiences were similar.

Drago said...

walter: "I still can't be;ieve how R's failed to bludgeon Obama mercilessly with his promise "necessarily skyrocket" energy costs."

Because McCain/Romney/Ryan/GOPe-ers were far, far too busy telling the republican base voters how horrible they were while sumultaneously praising obama.

Gospace said...

Nobody heats or generates power with LNG. LNG is a way to ship and store NG in a more dense form. LNG ships and stores at -260°F, possibly colder than Hillary's heart. Some NG is vented off at all LNG storage facilities and flared- burned wihout producing power. LNG is boiled off- without need of heating devices- and enters pipelines in gaseous form.

Propane is stored in liguid form at homes that use propane. Because of the temperature-pressure properties of propane. Still must be converted to gaseous form to burn. If you've been camping with LP cylinders half empty in below freezing temperature, you're familiar with how hard it is to get the propane flowing to your burners. If you live in an area where outside air (not wind chill) gets to -50°F and you rely on LP for heating and hot water- you're going to have real problems keeping a flow. Vapor pressure of LP is zero PSI at that temperature. There's not going to be any pressure in an outside tank to force the flow into the house.