May 5, 2019

"Likability seems to have emerged as an important personality trait in the late 19th century, when it became closely associated with male business success."

"Before this, people liked or disliked one another, of course, but it wasn’t until after the Civil War, when middle-class men began to see virtue and character as essential to personal advancement, that success in business required projecting likability.... Americans were also taught that being likable was a quality that could be cultivated as a means to get ahead. In 1936, Dale Carnegie’s 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' warned that those who tried too hard to be liked would fail: Theodore Roosevelt’s naturally friendly greetings to everyone he passed, regardless of status, Carnegie noted, had made it impossible not to like him, but Henrietta G., now the 'best liked' counselor at her office, had been isolated until she learned to stop bragging. (Though looking back, we have to wonder: Would Henry G. have needed to hide his accomplishments?).... But as Dale Carnegie might have told [Hillary Clinton], if there is anything worse than being unlikable, it is wanting too badly to be liked.... That Mrs. Clinton lost the nomination in 2008, to a political virtuoso but still a virtual novice, seemed for some illustrative of the troubled relationship between gender and likability in politics. But then she lost in 2016. That voters could see Donald Trump’s rambling and bullying as authenticity seemed proof for many that the likability game was permanently rigged in favor of men.... Likability is associated with an emotional connection between candidate and voter that makes a politician worthy of trust. And yet because that connection is forged almost exclusively through the conduit of mass media, it can never be really about the candidate but only voters’ fantasies about how a politician they can never know ought to be. That women are disadvantaged by a dynamic that emphasizes fantasies over real achievements should perhaps come as no surprise: Popular fantasies about women, sadly, still don’t tend to feature intelligence, expertise and toughness at the negotiating table.... What would it mean if we could reinvent what it is that makes a candidate 'likable'? What if women no longer tried to fit a standard that was never meant for them and instead, we focused on redefining what likability might look like: not someone you want to get a beer with, but, say, someone you can trust to do the work?"

From "Men Invented ‘Likability.’ Guess Who Benefits/It was pushed by Madison Avenue and preached by self-help gurus. Then it entered politics" by Claire Bond Potter (NYT).

Potter fails to make a serious attempt to understand what people who like Donald Trump like about him. She tosses out the Trump hater's aversive summary, "rambling and bullying." Potter purports to be interested in "reinvent[ing]" what likability is, but she never takes the trouble to consider the ways in which Donald Trump has reinvented likability. She does breeze through the historical example of Theodore Roosevelt, though she only looks at him second hand, letting us know how Dale Carnegie saw him — "naturally friendly."

Potter rankles at the contrast between the male Roosevelt and the female ("Henrietta G.") who tries too hard, and she jumps to the feminist question whether the problem people had with Henrietta was her femaleness. Carnegie may have been right. People responded to the naturalness of Roosevelt's interactions and felt put off by the artificiality of H.G.'s trying too hard.

If we reframe likability as a sense that you can trust the other person, the distinction between Roosevelt and Henrietta G. already fits that frame! Roosevelt seemed natural, as if he really was friendly and showing his real self, and Henrietta felt like a phony who was trying to extract something from us.

Now, Trump haters, think about Trump and why the people who like him like him, and think hard. Don't shield yourself from the truth by reflexively interposing Trump-hating ideas like "rambling and bullying." Trump stands up in front of crowds for an hour and more at a time and speaks directly, without a script. You get to see how his mind works. He's a real person. It's weird but it's natural— natural in some way that's available to a 70ish billionaire TV-and-real-estate man from New York City.

By the way, if you're going to study "likability," you ought to also study hateability. It seems to me, the guys who've been winning the Presidency also have hateability. Speaking of trying too hard, maybe female politicians try too hard to expunge or hide any hateability, and that's what makes them seem to lack qualities — Potter's trio is "intelligence, expertise and toughness" — that we sense are crucial in the Leader of the Free World. We're not electing a Friend. We're electing a Protector.

IN THE COMMENTS: Automatic_Wing said:
"You're likeable enough, Hillary" was funny because everyone knew she wasn't.
Let's see it again:



What I notice, watching it again today, is that Hillary was ready with a funny response. The question seems planned, and her response seems to have been practiced, and it is funny. She says "That hurts my feelings" in a mock-feminine way, then adds, sarcastically, "but I'll try to go on." I think the idea was to insinuate that her critics were sexist to talk about likability and to be likable by displaying that she didn't really care about those criticisms. Obama stepped on her little routine. (Paradoxically, that routine of hers was very feminine.) And he was actually kind of mean, saying she was "likable enough," which is to say, not all that likable, certainly not as likable as I am, but I've got so much likablity that I can spend some of it on being kind of an asshole to you, Hillary. Ironically, that ad lib meanness was likable! And it underscored how practiced and phony her effort to please us really was. She was trying too hard, like Dale Carnegie's Henrietta G.

194 comments:

Paco Wové said...

Not content with merely inciting racial strife, the NYT works to gin up a war between the sexes as well.

rhhardin said...

Someone you can trust to do what work, is the difference between men and women.

Tommy Duncan said...

"We're not electing a Friend. We're electing a Protector."

Obama?

MadisonMan said...

Why is not voting for Hillary because you didn't want her husband anywhere near the White House again a comment on her likabiity?

rhhardin said...

Trump corruption is likely to benefit both himself and the US.

Hillary corruption is likely to benefit herself but not the US.

etbass said...

I think the haters hate because Trump has refused to accept their hypocrisy and evil. He has shown them to be what they really are and has punched through their shield, the mainstream media.

Tank said...

“the likability game was permanently rigged in favor of men”

Omigod! Stop I say, you’re killing me with this jive.

rhhardin said...

Obama corruption follows the African model.

Automatic_Wing said...

"You're likeable enough, Hillary" was funny because everyone knew she wasn't.

rehajm said...

seemed proof for many that the likability game was permanently rigged in favor of men

Why not just admit she could be a fucking horrible candidate? Yes, she's a sour and unlikeable but it could also have something to do with the baggage, the corruption, the scandals, the whatever her relationship to Bill is, the hypocrisy, the phoniness.

It doesn't reflect well on women to not see these things. Maybe that's part of the problem, too?

MikeR said...

Don't forget that actors who tried imitating Clinton and Trump, but switching the genders. "Clinton" became even more unlikeable.

Chuck said...

Now, Trump haters, think about Trump and why the people who like him like him, and think hard. Don't shield yourself from the truth by reflexively interposing Trump-hating ideas like "rambling and bullying." Trump stands up in front of crowds for an hour and more at a time and speaks directly, without a script. You get to see how his mind works. He's a real person. It's weird but it's natural— natural in some way that's available to a 70ish billionaire TV-and-real-estate man from New York City.


He's a real person who has basically zero connection with any of the core beliefs of Christianity, apart from a kind of Fox News religion. He's a real person with little apparent knowledge of American history, politics and legal traditions. His core ability is as a hyperbolic salesman, spouting one exaggerated untruth after another.

I do see how his mind works, and it is repulsive and frightening. And his speech patterns are gross; imprecise, inarticulate and inaccurate.

mesquito said...

For me 2016 came down to: which Yankee vulgarian is less unlikable?

David Begley said...

Harris is cashing in on a different form of likeability.

narciso said...

That was not her job:

https://www.americanthinker.com/ar6ticles/2019/05/tragedy_tomorrow_comedy_tonight.html

Fernandinande said...

"Then it entered politics"

What a cliffhanger! I guess we'll never know what happened next unless we read the article. Oh, well.

Martha said...

I did not find Trump likable when he was a TV reality show host or when he was one of many running in the Republican primary. I do not find him likable as President. But he is not a conniving or lazy whiner who expected to be coronated. That he does not consider me to be a deplorable sealed the deal.

tim in vermont said...

Would Henry G. have needed to hide his accomplishments?

Well, there is a difference between hiding and declining opportunities to brag, and BTW, since we are really talking about Hillary here, what did she have to brag about?

Her support for the Iraq War?
“We came! We saw! He died!”
Her idea of thwarting Congressional oversight by using a private server?
Her carpet bagging usurpation of a Senate seat from a state where she never lived?
Her political climbing based on her marriage?

What these analyses of Hillary’s lack of “likeability” all overlook is her sordid ethical history. You can’t get to the truth by sweeping under the rug so much of the knowledge of her character that the people who dislike her are plainly well aware of.

This is all about assuming what you want to prove, and what they assume is that all of the ethical noise about Hillary is based on sexism, even though it is all there about her husband too. Unless they have some way of explaining, for example, why she got away with destroying her daily schedules as SoS while. she was making 50 million dollars in “speaking fees” etc, her arguments are going to be dismissed by the people she is purportedly trying to reach, and only serve as denialism fodder for Hillary’s supporters.

I would be interested in a list of her “accomplishments” on which she could brag, though.

Ralph L said...

Popular fantasies about women, sadly, still don’t tend to feature intelligence, expertise and toughness at the negotiating table

I was going to say there might be a reason for this, but that would be unlikeable, so....

Who's having these fantasies about women in politics and business? Other women.

David Begley said...

DDB: Senator, some people say that you remind them of Hillary Clinton.

KG: Is it the blonde hair? [Laughs.]

DDB: Maybe that. You’ve won elections in New York. Some of these same people say that you are not very likable. What would you say to those people? [Laughs.]

KG: Okay, I’ll ask everyone here. Raise your hand if you find me likable tonight. Raise your hands. [Crowd cheers and raises hands.]

KG: Unfair question. Let me say something I believe about Hillary Clinton. She’s been a role model for more women and girls globally than any woman in America. She’s somebody that people look up to. [Crowd cheers wildly.] Hillary won the popular vote. [Cheers.] … She’s someone I’ve always looked up to. We are very different people. We have very different stories…. I’m an expert on dairy farming. … But I really respect her greatly. I’m so grateful that she tried so hard to represent this country and try to do what’s right. [Wild cheers.]

tcrosse said...

"We're not electing a Friend. We're electing a Protector."

We're casting the best person to play the President on television.

tim in vermont said...

He's a real person who has basically zero connection with any of the core beliefs of Christianity,

“I love the poorly educated!”

Wince said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
tim in vermont said...

But I really respect her greatly. I’m so grateful that she tried so hard to represent this country and try to do what’s right. [Wild cheers.]

"So all of you ladies out there, marry well, and if you want to greatly increase your odds of marrying a future president, choose a man over six feet tall and left handed! It’s a proven formula!"

Fernandinande said...

Tank quoted “the likability game was permanently rigged in favor of men”

The false statements in the headline make clear that it's just a feminista article, but I particularly like the passive phrasing in that sentence.

I suppose the fair-minded authorette didn't want to embarrass men by saying straight out that "the patriarchy permanently rigged the likability game in favor of men".

AMDG said...

What people fail to see is that Hillary possesses all of Trump’s flaws with none of the entertainment value x plus the judges.

In what ways would the nation be better off if Hillary had been elected?

alanc709 said...

another Drive-By Chuck appearance, to dispense his left-wing talking points and utter ignorance of Christianity.

tim in vermont said...

I am not going to read garbage, the content of which is utterly predictable, so I am going to predict that a search for Maggie Thatcher is going to come up empty.

Wince said...

Trump stands up in front of crowds for an hour and more at a time and speaks directly, without a script. You get to see how his mind works. He's a real person. It's weird but it's natural— natural in some way that's available to a 70ish billionaire TV-and-real-estate man from New York City.

In that way Trump is a remarkably honest politician, even if you don't believe he is ethical.

I did a search of Potter's article and neither the word "honest" nor "ethical" appeared.

Hillary is not likable, among many other reasons, because people perceive her as neither honest nor ethical.

Michael K said...

Oh, those darn men !

They used to gather in their clubs but we put a stop to that.

Then we women got involved in the business world and wanted men to mentor us just like they mentored other men.

If they didn't do that mentoring right we sued for sexual harassment. That'l teach those bastards.

Now, they want to leave the office door open and avoid being alone with us. I guess we'll just have to keep suing until morale improves.

Dan in Philly said...

Obama was not a political virtuoso, he was a hack who was blessed with bad opponents and a fawning press.

tim in vermont said...

Tl;dr: “Ban bossy!”

tim in vermont said...

Now Dr K, don’t go mocking pretzel logic, it’s the only logic most feminists have!

mockturtle said...

The Willy Loman [Death of a Salesman] theory.

rehajm said...

What would it mean if we could reinvent what it is that makes a candidate 'likable'?

Partial credit for the assertion but it's missing the opportunity. Why only consider the possibility of changing the thing men discovered that works for them? Some guy somewhere figured this thing out. GO AND INVENT YOUR OWN THING THAT WORKS TO GET WOMEN ELECTED!

I get the impression that never occurs to her, or to other women.

Drago said...

LLR Chuck is now LLTheologian Chuck who is still operationally aligned with the far left and thus infanticide and the destruction of our republic.

Thanks for your input Friar Chuck!

LOL

Of course LLR and Durbin Cuckholster Chuck is simply launching smears in alignment with far left talking points in a doomed to fail attempt to separate conservative religious voters from Trump. Not gonna happen.
Those voters are well aware that Trump is the one that stands between them and LLR Chuck approved antifa types who want to destroy them.

Still, its fun to watch as LLR Chuck transparently attempts to weave the latest version of the fake conservative lefty talking points into the conversation via the exposed lefty rhetorical tactic of "The Conservative Case For (insert every lefty/dem policy here)"

Actually, I thought Chuck would give the "how can religious types support Trump?!!" schtick a rest and instead go with the much more typically lefty pro-Biden narrative boosting "republicans are racists and John Birchers and for Jim Crow and will put ya'll back in chains" ploy.

The day is young however.

Wince said...

How would Potter explain this combined, gender-neutral metric of "likability", even among Clinton supporters?

Ticket prices plunge for Bill and Hillary Clinton’s speaking tour

Tickets to the latest stop on Bill and Hillary Clinton’s speaking tour were going for as little as $20 on the secondary market as their 13-city adventure continued to struggle to find an audience.

The best seats in the house at Seattle’s WaMu Theater on Friday could be had for $829, a steep 54% drop from the $1,785 that the former first couple fetched when the tour was announced in early November.

But organizers soon had to slash listed prices and even offer discount ducats through Groupon to boost sales.

The official prices for Friday’s appearance ranged from $66.50 to $519, the Seattle Times reported.

“I really believe that we are in a crisis, a constitutional crisis,” Hillary Clinton opined during the 90-minute performance, presented as an interview of her and her husband by actor Bradley Whitford. “This is a test for our country.”

“These people, they don’t believe the same set of rules apply to them that apply to everyone else,” Bill Clinton said of the Trump administration.

Amadeus 48 said...

I don't find Potter very likable.

Henry said...

The more interesting idea, to me, is that Trump garnered votes despite being unlikeable.

And Hillary did too.

mockturtle said...

Judge Judy isn't 'likeable' but I like her. She puts whiners and losers in their place. No coincidence that Trump does the same.

chuck said...

Good luck with changing peoples' perceptions about who is likable, but how typical of the left to diagnose the problem as societal rather than personal.

Slightly off topic, but speaking of the Gilded Age (and Hillary), I'd like to see a book about the Methodist influence in American industrial development and politics.

Darrell said...

The Left is pushing another narrative--lots of articles quoting George Washington or talking about how charming a man Napoleon was. Of course they have other narratives designed to eliminate all recognition of Washington as a non-woke 18th Centurion.

Henry said...

What if women no longer tried to fit a standard that was never meant for them and instead, we focused on redefining what likability might look like: not someone you want to get a beer with, but, say, someone you can trust to do the work?

That last statement so dramatically does NOT apply to Hillary Clinton as to send us through the looking glass.

Henry said...

I'd like to see this lady's construct applied to Oprah.

Bob Boyd said...

What would it mean if we could reinvent what it is that makes a candidate 'likable'?

It's starting to look like the never-ending Make Hillary President project is going to involve cryogenics.

Tina Trent said...

Women deserve the right to be more unpleasant?

Darrell said...

Joe Bidumb is really likable.
Like all Democrats.

Koot Katmandu said...

It must really suck to see every thing in life through the lens of gender - thinking how bad you have it because of your gender. The women that wrote that article must be pissed she was not born a man and will never get over, Margret Thatcher the former Brit PM blows holes the the authors theory. The Iron lady was likable to many for sure. Thatcher helps Ann's theory though Thatcher was truly hated by some. She was real or seemed to be.

Ice Nine said...

She's drawing this conclusion form *six* female candidates. A fundamental flaw in her lame argument. Also, Tulsi Gabbard is likable.

I've never really contemplated it before but I'm pretty sure that over my decades I've encountered fairly close to an equal number of likable women as likable men.

The notion she's pushing in this article is feminist nonsense, to be ignored.

Anonymous said...

All Republicans are evil, stupid, and/or unlikeable.
That is definitional, ask the MSM.

Or ask the LLRs.

Fernandinande said...

Tickets to the latest stop on Bill and Hillary Clinton’s speaking tour were going for as little as $20 on the

That is amazing. Reasonable people would pay $20 to avoid hearing those two bullshitters.

Henry said...

seemed proof for many is a good description of this particular genre of intellectualized self-pity.

tim in vermont said...

"intelligence, expertise and toughness"

Maggie Fucking Tatcher. Not Hillary who partially blames her election defeat on being asked a tough question once by Matt Laur.

cf said...

"Likability is associated with an emotional connection between candidate and voter that makes a politician worthy of trust. And yet because that connection is forged almost exclusively through the conduit of mass media, it can never be really about the candidate but only voters’ fantasies about how a politician they can never know ought to be."

<< ... forged almost exclusively through the conduit of mass media ... >>

President @RealDonaldTrump busted the NYT/NPR model so badly, hurray!

I remember listening regularly during 2015-16 to our "National Public Radio" that would divide up any 7 minute report into 6.5 minutes of female-style hysteria about Trump, a weird mix of "the world is ending" and mocking snark. Somewhere in the script the listener got 30 seconds of Relief! "hillary" would get mentioned in some gauzy happy sentence, quick softball toss & catch, usually ending with a tittle of easy on-air giggles before they resume the "Serious Voice" for another round of "ugh! Trump!"

I was incredulous that @NPR could shamelessly continue with this mix -- not just for a week or a month but the entire campaign!

That's what they Hate the Most, these a@NYT Serene Police State Elitists: Trump is the most direct, real-time candidate and President EVER. AND, he's good at being PResident! REally Good!

NYT can't handle the Truth. So they demean us all, men and women, but especially women.

Otto said...

Two women kvetching about why a third woman lost an election. This kvetching was catagorized before the 60s as women gossip. Plain and simple- Clinton lost because of immigration, the economy and more of the same "America is bad" rhetoric. After 8 years of faulty ultra liberal policies, the people had enough. Kvetch on.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

That Mrs. Clinton lost the nomination in 2008, to a political virtuoso but still a virtual novice, seemed for some illustrative of the troubled relationship between gender and likability in politics.

Clinton was almost as much a political novice as Obama: She was a second term Senator, he was a first term Senator who had also been a state legislator. And, of course, she would have had no chance of winning her senate seat had she not been riding her husband's coat-tails.

Henry said...

Speaking of trying too hard, maybe female politicians try too hard to expunge or hide any hateability, and that's what makes them seem to lack qualities — Potter's trio is "intelligence, expertise and toughness" — that we sense are crucial in the Leader of the Free World.

Many of the men Trump beat also had this defect. Jeb Bush. Marco Rubio.

The man Hillary humiliated practically ran as a Trappist monk of inoffensiveness.

wwww said...

I don't think Potter is looking at the correct categories for the qualities society likes to see in Presidents. For the President, and some other top leadership positions, society looks to men who command authority. Less frequently, women have been able to project and command authority. See Queen Elizabeth and the Spanish Armada.

In women, society looks for the quality of pleasantness and confidence. In hiring, for men and women, HR and hiring decision may look for the quality of pleasantness. This quality helps one get ahead in many business situations.

A leader may command authority, respect, and be seen to be pleasant and of good character. Mitt Romney, Reagan, and both George Bushes are examples of this type. This type of leader is seen as a role model for children. A second type of leader may command authority but may project an unpleasant personality and/or possess major character flaws.

Kevin said...

Now, Trump haters, think about Trump and why the people who like him like him, and think hard.

I knew Chuck would take up the challenge and fail spectacularly.

Thinking hard means moving beyond your comfortable perceptions.

It’s not his strong suit.

tim in vermont said...

These people, they don’t believe the same set of rules apply to them that apply to everyone else,” Bill Clinton said of the Trump administration.

Oh my fucking god. Unless he is talking about the real “set of rules” that operate in Washington, where Democrats get away with anything, and where the deep state spies on Republican campaigns and nobody says “boo."

Henry said...

So before men invented likability in the 19th century, things were just swell?

chuck said...

> she would have had no chance of winning her senate seat had she not been riding her husband's coat-tails.

It was all set up for her after Daniel Patrick Moynihan died and Rudy Giuliani decided not to run. Hillary has always been more of a party product than a leader.

Kevin said...

Biden is running as the decent person who will restore morality to America again.

In doing so he ignores his own history and begins his campaign with an outright lie.

Does that make him the most inauthentic candidate?

Darrell said...

and where the deep state spies on Republican campaigns

And attempts to frame them--plant "evidence."

Kamaltoe just made lynching illegal. Now she should do the same for all the other crimes Democrats committed.

Kevin said...

Trump didn’t spend his life saying one thing to voters at election time and then doing the opposite.

No wonder the other politicians thought his candidacy unfair.

jaydub said...

"He's a real person who has basically zero connection with any of the core beliefs of Christianity" judges the venom spewing and hatred possessed Saint Chuck while displaying his own unchristian obsession.

wwww said...

"The more interesting idea, to me, is that Trump garnered votes despite being unlikeable.
And Hillary did too."

The general public was given a binary choice. What else were people to do? Not vote, or vote 3rd party. Many held their nose and voted. But lots of people refused both. Some refused to vote. An abnormally large percentage of the electorate voted 3rd party in swing states.

Big Mike said...

"You're likeable enough, Hillary"

Merely one of the first of Obama’s many, many lies.

mockturtle said...

Koot Katmadu observes: The women that wrote that article must be pissed she was not born a man and will never get over

Nope. Had they been born men, they would have nothing to whine about and no excuses for their personal failings.

Bob Boyd said...

Claire Bond Potter's easy 3 step plan to make Hillary President

1) Reinvent what makes a candidate likable.
2) Thaw out Hillary.
3) Sit back and enjoy the Hillary administration..

wwww said...

"So before men invented likability in the 19th century, things were just swell?"

I think, what changed, was the percentage of Americans who farmed versus worked in urban environments. A farmer does not have to be likeable to be a success. That farmer, if he owns his own land, does not need to depend on likability to persuade a boss to hire or promote him.

Darrell said...

Was Hillary stupid enough to believe she was named after Edmund? Or deceitful enough to know better and lie?

William said...

Biden is very likable, but his two previous Presidential campaigns went nowhere. He's tall too. I don't think there's any formula that predicts success.

Michael K said...

To all the arguments about how tough women have it in business and politics, I just say Maggie Thatcher.

She almost saved Britain but the Tories threw her out for John Major, who resembled JEB Bush.

Derek Kite said...

I watched the Barr Senate stuff on Cspan, and was struck how contrived the women are. Barr, who is an old hand, has a persona that he doesn't have to fake. Same with Trump. He is who he is, and is the same every time you see him. Harris was trying to be the competent lawyer, and came across poorly. Klobuchar was a bit weird.

I wonder if the political ladder is selecting for women who aren't very nice and aren't likeable. It seems that they are activists with ideas. Which is fine, but politics is selling ideas, and ultimately you have to sell yourself. And the first thing you need to do to sell something to someone is convince them not that you are likeable, but that you like them. Hillary doesn't like the american people. They returned the favor.

tim in vermont said...

It was all set up for her after Daniel Patrick Moynihan died and Rudy Giuliani decided not to run. Hillary has always been more of a party product than a leader.

More like when Upstate New York died economically and so many people, myself included, left, leaving control of the state to NYC and environs. Though parts of Long Island are still kind of Republican, they don’t matter.

Michael K said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bob Boyd said...

Comey, Putin, John Stewart and Dale Carnegie colluded to keep Hillary out of the Oval.
No wonder she's crankier than ever.

gilbar said...

{attempting to tie this into likeability}

There's an article about Jo Biden's likeability in the WSJ
Jo Biden misses his chance


in it, Holman W. Jenkins points out that Jo Biden has jumped Whole Hog onto some Life Long Liberal's pet dream: The Charlottesville hoax.

Jenkins points out that LLLs: "claim that Mr. Trump was factually wrong about who was present in Charlottesville and therefore (the argument gets wobbly here) somehow this justifies continuing to say he was referring to white nationalists when he said “very fine people.” Let’s understand: Mr. Trump could have been wrong about every particular, including the date and weather, and it would have no bearing on whether or not he specified in his reference to “very fine people” that “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis or the white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”"

It's interesting, Only Life Long Liberals like CNN’s Chris Cuomo and the Washington Post’s Aaron Blake are stupid enough to go down this path. Basically, to believe in the Charlottesville hoax hoax; you have to be SO STUPID that you think that the Bulwark is a conservation site.

The unlikeability of the current crop of democrats is not going to move many people from Trump.
We already Have a President that many people find unlikable. One whose economy is doing Great!

Darrell said...

Biden is very likable

Says you.

He is always a nanosecond away from blowing up at someone who crosses him.

Big Mike said...

Speaking of Obama, I read a review of his latest book, and it claimed he took Trump’s election personally, regarding it as a renunciation of him and his policies. So that’s one thing he (finally) got right.

I might read his book when it comes to the local library or when I can get it for a buck off the remainder table. No way I will buy it full price. It’s not like he needs the royalties — after a while he’s made enough money.

wwww said...

Biden is very likable, but his two previous Presidential campaigns went nowhere. He's tall too. I don't think there's any formula that predicts success.

Tall helps a lot. Nowadays Americans want someone they can tolerate on their TV. Hillary did not pass that test. The President is on the media screen a lot. He/She? gets interjected into your life even if one tends to ignore politics. A lot of people do not want someone annoying to pop up in their life on a regular basis.

hombre said...

“That women are disadvantaged by a dynamic that emphasizes fantasies over real achievements should perhaps come as no surprise: ....”

What, pray tell, were the “real achievements” of Hillary? What are the real achievements of any of the women seeking the Democrat nomination? Political ascension is not an achievement in and of itself. Getting the job and doing the job aren’t the same.

Trump, OTOH, has a history of real achievements, but likeability? Really?

Does the NYT have an inexhaustible supply of delusional female journalists making excuses for what they perceive to be the failures of women? It must be insulting to the myriad of successful women to be lumped into a gaggle of bedwetters.

wwww said...

Sorry forgot quotes; I was responding to William and pasted his first paragraph.

Anonymous said...

Popular fantasies about women, sadly, still don’t tend to feature intelligence, expertise and toughness at the negotiating table.... What would it mean if we could reinvent what it is that makes a candidate 'likable'?

Yeah, that's how you do it! You just create the New Soviet Man (and Woman) who will judge candidates by the "correct" criteria, not any of the age-old criteria surrounding leadership dictated by human nature! That's how you get a woman into high office!

Christ, these people never, ever learn, do they? In the first place, the percentage of women with the requisite leadership characteristics is always going to be smaller than the percentage (also small) of men with the same. And the "requisite characteristics" are not going to be exactly the same for men and women. Some will be shared, but people judge men and women differently, and sorry, o noble social engineers, that's not going to change.

Instead of whining about how the populous has to change, it would be wiser to study women in history who did make it to the big time, no? They didn't get there by making everybody change their perceptions of women. They got there because they had a statistically rare combination of character traits (to put it succinctly, they are manly but not mannish), and they worked with what they were, and what the people they aspired to lead really are, not what some pie-in-the-sky ideology wanted them to be.

The persona of high-school student-government scold - the standard public presentation of American liberal women politicians - ain't gonna cut it.

gilbar said...

The question WAS planned, and her response MUST have been practiced, and it is funny. She says "That hurts my feelings" in a mock-feminine way, then adds, sarcastically, "but I'll try to go on."

fify!

tim in vermont said...

hat farmer, if he owns his own land, does not need to depend on likability to persuade a boss to hire or promote him.

There probably is something to a critique of ‘likability’ but I don’t believe it is gendered. Competence is often paired with a difficulty to suffer fools gladly.

robother said...

Most voters instinctively know that men and women are coming from hormonally different starting places. The need of men to demonstrate "likability" in a political (or sales) context is, as Ann notes, an authenticity issue: Is this guy really on my side or trying to con me?

With women candidates, voters are looking for signs of strength and commitment to our nation, demonstrations that her empathy is literally bounded. Thus Golda Maier and Maggie Thatcher enjoyed electoral success in relatively "sexist" cultures and times.

rcocean said...

"We're not electing a Friend. We're electing a Protector."

Trump as the Dark Knight. "Because he's the hero America deserves, but not the one it needs right now... Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.”

LOL.

Anonymous said...

Trump isn’t likeable. He is deplorable. Sadly, so are the majority of voters in states with 304 electoral votes.😪

Bob Boyd said...

I never understood finding Obama likable. I didn't find him likable at all. He seemed a complete phony, a creature made in a PR lab.

rcocean said...

"Popular fantasies about women, sadly, still don’t tend to feature intelligence, expertise and toughness at the negotiating table."

Yeah...cause "popular fantasies" are so different from reality. Go into any field and you'll see the Leaders/top people full of "expertise, Toughness, and Intelligence" are usually women. Oh wait, they're almost always men.

There are plenty of good Women leaders, good doctors, lawyers, Pols, etc. But they are rarely the best of the best.

William said...

Napoleon abandoned three of his armies in the field and lost the war. Nonetheless, when he escaped from Elba and bared his throat to the French army sent to confront him, those soldiers refused to fire on him and instead followed him on his march to Waterloo. Another 100,000 men were killed or crippled In that vainglorious enterprise . All in all, some 30% of the male population of France between the ages of 18 to 40 were killed or disabled during Napoleon's misadventures. The French soldiers were incredibly loyal to Napoleon. I don't know if likable is the right word, but they revered him and were willing to die for him. He wasn't even tall.......There is some quality of leadership that exists independently of likability. Hillary doesn't have that either.

Paul said...

It is not that Hillary is 'likeable' or not. It's that her corrosive corruption makes it hard to even stand being in the same room.

tim in vermont said...

Ironically, that ad lib meanness was likable!

Because of its obvious truth.

rehajm said...

The question seems planned, and her response seems to have been practiced,

Perhaps the lager problem is her inability to fake sincerity?

tim in vermont said...

Hillary rode her husband’s goat tails.

Narayanan said...

Is it possible to like someone who deplores some others?

Do those joining in deploring even like one another?

rcocean said...

Likability can be manufactured or disguised. Ike was always portrayed as a charming guy with a winning smile. "I like Ike". In reality, Ike was harsh, demanding Boss with a hell of a temper. He got angry at Truman and refused to speak to him at the Inaugural, and woe betide anyone who didn't treat him with the respect his rank or office entitled him to.

Meanwhile, MacArthur who is portrayed as a pompous and arrogant elitist was extremely easy to work for, and would talk to anyone on man-to-man level. Airplane pilots and crew, PT boat members, soldiers who wandered into the command post. Anyone.

tim in vermont said...

“we’re polling Top Democrats from your area to determine possible support for a Hillary Clinton 2020 Presidential Ticket.”

This is battle space prep.

gilbar said...

That farmer, if he owns his own land, does not need to depend on likability to persuade a boss to hire or promote him.

That farmer, DAMN WELL BETTER HOPE that the Banker likes him!
{but, what would i know? My family has only owned their farm since the 1880's}

rcocean said...

Biden has likability. Hillary doesn't. McCain really didn't. Dole has zero. Usually the more likable candidate wins. The only exception is 1968 when Nixon beat Humphrey.

Jon Burack said...

If this writer really admired women pols who are tough, the one that ought to stand out head and shoulders for her is Nikki Haley. She's got all of the Democratic field, men and women, outclassed BOTH in terms of likeability and hateability. A near perfect balance. Keep it in mind, because she's got a long way to go yet.

Anonymous said...

hombre: Does the NYT have an inexhaustible supply of delusional female journalists...

Sure looks that way.

Professional lady said...

I hate whining. Little kids have an excuse because they don't know any better and can't be expected to have the maturity to have good control their emotions. Grown women don't have that excuse (and neither do grown men).

MBunge said...

Hillary Clinton spent the bulk of her entire adult life being privately humiliated by the only man she apparently has ever really loved and then sitting there and taking it when she was humiliated in front of the entire world all over again.

It's amazing how this fact is never brought up when trying to understand why Hillary is the way she is and how people react to the way she is.

Mike

mockturtle said...

Women who command [not demand] respect as leaders are few and very far between.

Meade said...

"He's a real person who has basically zero connection with any of the core beliefs of Christianity, apart from a kind of Fox News religion."

Nothing quite as unlikeable as a real self-identifying Christian who never fails to cast that first stone.

rcocean said...

That clip just showed why she never should have been nominated. She was/is a terrible politician. And there's nothing in Hillary's resume which shows any kind of competence that makes up for that. She is a ridiculous example of a Feminist who almost got to the top because she was married to the right man. Palin did it all on her own. Hillary had it given to her.

AllenS said...

OBAMA: "You're likable enough, Hillary."

HILLARY: "You're a liar."

Francisco D said...

Biden has likability. Hillary doesn't. McCain really didn't. Dole has zero. Usually the more likable candidate wins. The only exception is 1968 when Nixon beat Humphrey.

I thought Walter Mondale was pretty likable, but Reagan had a certain charm.

Donald Trump is not a likable person. However, he appears to be competent. Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden have never demonstrated any degree of competence. None of them could make it in a world where they were held accountable for their actions and inactions.

A significant number of us live in that world and resent our incompetent overlords telling us how to live our lives.

JPS said...

rcocean, 9:36:

Interesting. I had read that Ike could be a real sonofabitch, but I never knew of these qualities of MacArthur's.

I do think though of some bosses who seem (or really are) quite pleasant and down to earth toward distant subordinates, but absolute hell on those working for them directly.

Narayanan said...

...Reasonable people would pay $20 to avoid hearing those two bullshitters...

Are there Exit polls to gauge buyers remorse ?
Has anyone been that enterprising?

rcocean said...

Theresa May doesn't seem to be likable or competent but evidently she's the best the Tory Party can do. The same is true of Merckle (don't squeeze the Charmin). Maybe Parliamentary Government is more female friendly.

rcocean said...

Donald Trump is not a likable person.

Being Funny is a sure fire way to be likable. Trump is the funniest President in my lifetime - even better than Reagan.

JPS said...

rcocean,

"Theresa May doesn't seem to be likable or competent "

She has her moments. It's worth seeing the clip of her expressing birthday wishes to Peter Bone, MP.

Competence, however, seems to be a bridge too far.

narciso said...

No she just have Michael gove knife boris Johnson at the finish line

Tom T. said...

This is a form of civility BS. Likability was a big issue in GWB's presidency, as Democrats complained that Bush's supporters voted for his personality when they should have been looking at his policies. Now, of course, Democrats complain that Trump's supporters vote for his policies when they should be looking at his personality.

Michael Fitzgerald said...

"that adlib meanness was likeable"- No, it wasn't. Obama is and always was a smug, snide snotty asshole.

wwww said...

"I had read that Ike could be a real sonofabitch,"

One of my husband's relatives went to school w/ Ike. Family has correspondence and letters from him. He comes across as friendly and likeable in the letters. That doesn't mean he wasn't unlikeable in other situations.

On Hillary being a female cuckhold. It did matter. She couldn't command authority. I can't think of an instance where someone has commanded authority when it's obvious their spouse is betraying them.

Skeptical Voter said...

Maggie Thatcher--the Iron Lady who inspired the original House of Cards series. (Read the author's explanation of how he came to write the series--he started as a speechwriter for her and worked up to Chief of Staff--she could be a tough and demanding boss, especially in a tight election campaign. After her last win, he went on vacation to the Greek Islands. He thought the then current political novels were "rubbish" and his girl friend suggested, "why don't you write one". The rest is history).

Maggie could "handbag" her opponents, i.e. figuratively beat them to death with her purse. In her own way she was as ruthless and tough a legislative force as LBJ.

Nikki Haley is also someone with intelligence, expertise and toughness. Condi Rice--yup!

Hillary is simply a nasty person and it shines through in most everything she does.

Big Mike said...

I never understood finding Obama likable.

@Bob Boyd, me either. Perhaps our blog hostess can explain.

Michael Fitzgerald said...

Donald Trump is not a likable person? GTFOH. What a fucking lie! The guy has been a tabloid celebrity since the 80's because he is charming, relatable and likable. You won't ever hear Donald Trump complain about the price of arugula.

Donald Trump is not just likable, he is lovable! Trumpy Bear!

tcrosse said...

Hillary is Lucy Van Pelt. Trump is Bart Simpson.

Trumpit said...

She should be locked up for the rest of her life. She's an evil witch.
However, compared to Trump, she's a saint. He should likewise be locked up for the rest of her life.

Tom T. said...

I never had the sense that Clinton was trying to be likable in 2016. She was seen as the inevitable winner and so she reveled in the love from her supporters (including the devotion of the press), and faced no perceived need to appear appealing to any other voters. Indeed, she was actively dismissive of opposition voters, rather than ever trying to win them over.

Charlie Currie said...

Blogger Dan in Philly said...
Obama was not a political virtuoso, he was a hack who was blessed with bad opponents and a fawning press.

And, Hollywood producers, directors, script writers, makeup artists and costume designers...and set designers...can't forget those Roman columns.

He was a Hollywood President.

Kevin said...

The question seems planned, and her response seems to have been practiced,

So she was being fed the questions beforehand even back then.

tim in vermont said...

However, compared to Trump, she's a saint. He should likewise be locked up for the rest of her life

Strumpit, you give me the Trump “crime” and I will top it for you from Hillary.

Jeff Weimer said...

If you substitute TR and Henrietta with Bill and Hillary, it's uncanny. I'm told that Bill is the consummate retail politician, and even his enemies acknowledge his ability to make you seem the only person he gives a shit about is uncanny. Hillary, not so much. She really does try too hard.

And like or hate how Trump is, it's authentic. He is exactly who he portrays. And you can, like him or hate him, *trust* that. You can't trust Hillary - you don;t know where you stand or what she actually thinks of you unless you're Sid Blumenthal. And I don't want someone who holds that rat bastard in esteem in the White House.

Michael K said...

That doesn't mean he wasn't unlikeable in other situations.

Eisenhower had a ferocious temper. His stroke was said to have occurred during a temper tantrum because he was called off the golf course for some negligible issue.

Not Sure said...

Like, ability is totes a male construct

Earnest Prole said...

Extrapolating conclusions about all women and the entire American electorate from the lone data point of Hillary Clinton? Dumb.

buwaya said...

The arguments we comment on here are, as usual, remarkably narrow.
American journalism is intensely narrow and parochial.
American higher education is certainly at fault.

This all is a human phenomenon, the question of leadership.
There is an enormous literature on the subject, but it remains mysterious.
A common idea was that it was a supernatural gift of the Gods.

A very good book that gets at competing theories and approaches is Cicero's "De Oratore". Compare the opinions of Antonius and Crassus therein; and compare Trumps approach to Antonius. And then, and then, the true master, in Ciceros opinion, Caesar, a natural, on wit, see book 2, 217-290, and then reconsider Trump.

"Likeability" was a major factor, and this goes back to ancient times. Ancient peoples who had democratic systems, the Greeks and Romans, had to try to train in rhetoric for this purpose, a system that is now lost. But thus has always mattered, even within royal courts or when dealing with power-brokers, the gentry or nobility.

A Turkish vizier had to be a master of persuasion not only with his master, but with the vast array of persons of importance that controlled some bit or aspect of the empire. And even in the mass, men needed to be persuaded and inspired, they weren't automatons. Even in autocracies there is a vital need to persuade.

Apt comments on Napoleon. He had a remarkable charisma in person, and also as carried through his subordinates.

buwaya said...

MacArthur was magnetic in person, and remarkably warm.

He became the idol of the Philippine upper class due to this personal charisma, as he took care to meet them constantly, to show an apparently genuine interest in their affairs, and he reliably stood up for them in contests with the American government, or appeared to do so. He was accepted as one of them remarkably quickly.

That is one reason his reputation has not suffered there, in spite of events.

Michael K said...

There is some quality of leadership that exists independently of likability. Hillary doesn't have that either.

Napoleon was a military genius who got too enamored of his successes and thought that hubris and fate were ancient concepts. Had he left Russia alone, he might have survived. His family members were incompetent. Jerome, his brother, lost the battle of Waterloo.

Hillary, like Kamala Harris, had no competence of her own. She slept her way to the top and always overestimated her talents.

I am unaware of any success, beginning with her health care commission.

elkh1 said...

A corrupt schoolmarm is never likeable.

Hey Skipper said...

@Chuck: He's a real person who has basically zero connection with any of the core beliefs of Christianity, apart from a kind of Fox News religion.

Point missed. Believing Christians (aka Sunday worshipers by your friends) aren't looking for a fellow congregant in Trump, but rather someone who won't ram the government down their throats.

E.g: compelled cakes, nuns being forced to pay for artificial birth control. A Trump administration will leave these people alone. We already know how freedom loving the left is.

Was Hillary stupid enough to believe she came under sniper fire in Sarajevo? Or deceitful enough to know better and lie?

Embrace the healing power of "and".

n.n said...

People appreciate the honesty of a masculine male, and a feminine female, the honesty of gender and sex. The most recent prospect of the latter in a leadership position was Sarah Palin, who shared the principles of Americans, and whose charisma and labor (no pun intended, although a full life is comforting) held the People's attention and earned their respect.

Fen said...

Plain and simple- Clinton lost because of immigration, the economy and more of the same "America is bad" rhetoric.

I'm very curious about the Obama -> Trump democrats in the Rust Belt that switched over to give Trump the win. Wish there was a way to graph their journey, but unfortunately the polling data is so perverted as to be useless. Like temperature records.

But in the beginning, they had to be responding to pollsters as "likely registered Dem voters". Especially for generic D vs R polls. Did their shift to Trump begin after he announced? After he won the GOP primary? Or was is after Hillary referred to them as Deplorables?

What a stupid bitch.

narciso said...

No I dont think so, urquhart was more a back room manipulator a genteel brigand in bespoke suits who held a horrible secret (in cyprus)

Drago said...

It surprises me not in the least how aligned our far left posters Trumpit and LLR Chuck are in their talking points.

Utterly unsurprising.

Meanwhile, voters with the freedom and ability to exercise their critical faculties will contine to look beyind LLR Chuck's tired and worn out lefty talking points and admitted smear merchant ploys to see the real value of Trump as President.

For some its transactional: Trump has given us the most conservative governance in several generations (reason alone for why lefties like Chuck despise him).

For others its Trumps ability to effectively fight back against LLR Chuck's dem/left heroes and continue moving the overton window back towards sanity.

Lots more reasons exist of course, and each of those reasons is valid to conservatives and anathema to lefties/LLR-lefties everywhere.

Paul Mac said...

Also, I hear vaccines cause autism, just look at the timing of the rise in vaccinations and autism cases it is undeniable. Correlation always equals causation, because science you know.

Sebastian said...

"And he was actually kind of mean, saying she was "likable enough," which is to say, not all that likable, certainly not as likable as I am"

But then, O was so "pragmatic," so "articulate," and of course so half-black, he could say anything. For a phony narcissist trying to reach women like Althouse, he was likable enough.

elkh1 said...

Claire Bond Potter's easy 3 step plan to make Hillary President

1) Reinvent what makes a candidate likable.
2) Thaw out Hillary.
3) Sit back and enjoy the Hillary administration..

It's easier to reinvent the electorate with illegal migrants and reinvent the electoral system to crown the candidate whose Party fabricated more popular votes as President.

Trumpit said...

"Strumpit, you give me the Trump “crime” and I will top it for you from Hillary."

You will have to read the unredacted 400+ page Mueller report, and get back to me with your flimsy "toppings." I won't engage in "back & forth" with loony rightists who call themselves "Nobody." Clearly, Trump committed felonies. He must pay for his crimes, and not with his dirty payoff budget.

effinayright said...

wwww said...
"So before men invented likability in the 19th century, things were just swell?"

I think, what changed, was the percentage of Americans who farmed versus worked in urban environments. A farmer does not have to be likeable to be a success. That farmer, if he owns his own land, does not need to depend on likability to persuade a boss to hire or promote him.
**********************

Were the Robber Barons likeable? Were Carnegie, Rockefeller and Ford?

Drago said...

Trumpit: "You will have to read the unredacted 400+ page Mueller report, and get back to me with your flimsy "toppings."'

Shorter Trumpit/LLR Chuck: No, we cant point to any crimes so we'll just keep pretending they are there...while we cry rivers of lefty woke tears.

buwaya said...

"wwww said...
"So before men invented likability in the 19th century, things were just swell?"'

"Likeability" was not reinvented in the 19th century.
We are talking about unchanging human nature.

effinayright said...


Trumpit: "You will have to read the unredacted 400+ page Mueller report, and get back to me with your flimsy "toppings."'
************

Have YOU read the unredacted Mueller Report?

traditionalguy said...

We are dancing around the old question of whether it is better to be feared or to be liked.

Trump has mastered doing both at once. He is an ambi-dexterous Stable Genius. One in a million. And he has the Chinese, the Japanese, the Koreans and Viet Namese, the Saudi and the Israelis all liking him.

Trump's only hard to win over audiences are in the old Roman Empire European States that want to eliminate the USA from the planet.

JAORE said...

"... I can spend some of it on being kind of an asshole..."

Example 7,652 of 11,489 of Obama being an asshole.

Unreported, of course.

FWIW, I remember when Hillary supporters were asked what she had actually accomplished the big enchilada was that she had flown over 2 Brazillian miles as SOS.

Seeing Red said...

Why do we have to wade thru it?

State your case.

Seeing Red said...

I’ve disliked Evita since 1990. Then she doubled, tripled, quadrupled, down and kept on going.

I would have NEVER voted for her.

Nichevo said...

And he was actually kind of mean, saying she was "likable enough," which is to say, not all that likable, certainly not as likable as I am, but I've got so much likablity that I can spend some of it on being kind of an asshole to you, Hillary.


Obama is mean. He is a mean, mean man, and showed it many, many times. He can hide it at times when he chooses to so that people like you won't see it, but at others the mask slips, and of course you are not the target of it most times so perhaps you could be forgiven for not perceiving it.

He had, of course, the advantage of being right in this instance, in terms of his latent, not his manifest meaning. I would regard the style of his malice as being very feminine, catty, bitchy. Which was probably extra cutting against HRC.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

we like genial
not merely 'friendly' but 'conducive to growth'

(also pertains to 'chin', so many candidates have that doubly covered)

traditionalguy said...

Trump's biggest plus is not his common man likeability. It is his working diligently to win our battles where failure is not an option. Obama had the million dollar smile, but he sought out hundreds of ways to make us lose every one of the the battles in which failure was not an option.

By 2024, if Trump is not killed, the USA may be saved from the near total demolition job Hussein Obama worked upon us, smiling all the way.

D 2 said...

What did this author write about Sarah Palin in 2008? Any articles with predetermined conclusions about likability in politics then?

Someone upstream said "pretzel logic" which is an insult to pretzels and logic. There is a narrowness of fitting things to suit the moments fancy. It's like the guy in Greek myth who chopped legs or stretched necks so that everyone fit the same way. Madness.

Seeing Red said...

Hillary Clinton spent the bulk of her entire adult life being privately humiliated by the only man she apparently has ever really loved and then sitting there and taking it when she was humiliated in front of the entire world all over again.

It's amazing how this fact is never brought up when trying to understand why Hillary is the way she is and how people react to the way she is.

Which is why I never respected that feminist. She didn’t walk her talk. Power access and money were more important.

I discussed with my friends in the 90s, and yes, I remember this convo, that after Bill left office, they thought she’d divorce him.

I said she’ll never divorce him, then modified it to maybe after she’s in her 70s (because she was going to run). Because there’s no cache in being the ex-wife of an ex-President and she likes the perks, the power, the SS detail, etc. too much.

They disagreed and here we are.

Achilles said...

Big Mike said...
I never understood finding Obama likable.

@Bob Boyd, me either. Perhaps our blog hostess can explain.

Obama was a boyfriend. There were a lot of Julias.

Women have a tendency towards jerk boyfriends. They seem to find them likable.

Men hate their girlfriends jerk boyfriends.

Obama was the ultimate sugar daddy who used and abused and gave out a few treats here and there then cast them off when he was tired of them.

And women everywhere swooned for it.

Trumpit said...

"By 2024, if Trump is not killed, the USA may be saved from the near total demolition job Hussein Obama worked upon us, smiling all the way."

Wrong! His real name is Obama Bin Laden.

Achilles said...

Drago said...
It surprises me not in the least how aligned our far left posters Trumpit and LLR Chuck are in their talking points.

Utterly unsurprising.


Trumpit is performance art.

Chuck is just a leftist pretending to be a republican to gain credibility.

Part of being on the left is being completely dishonest about who you are and what you want. High taxes, more regulation, crony "free" trade, endless stupid wars, and open borders are all about as popular as rabies.

They can't say what they want.

This makes them unlikable.

buwaya said...

Hilary is not a bit like Evita Peron.

The real Evita, a born actress, spoke extemporanously and colloquially, with tremendous passion. She was a genuine daughter of the people she represented, and was brilliant at reaching their guts.

Listen to this - it is full of extremely dramatic themes, delivered with barely controlled emotion. Full of love, pathos, sacrifice, and even religion. Apologies, it is in Spanish, but I think it has to be understood in Spanish, in that emotional context.

All political rhetoric has to exist in a given cultural-emotional context. It does not translate easily. As we see in the US today, between two unsympathetic subcultures.

It is blank-verse poetry written by a talented person. Whatever else also the real Evita could pick speechwriters that suited her talents.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cQbdVR862NY

bagoh20 said...

I don't vote for likeable people, I didn't like Trump when I voted for him. I was probably closer to a Trump hater than a fan, but I vote for the person with real promise of likeable results. Trump turned me around, and not with his personality, although I do find him refreshing and entertaining now, but that would be impossible without the results. I could vote for a mute robot if it was running the right program. I could vote for Hillary if she convinced me she would do what I want from a President, even if she called me deplorable.

I never understood how some candidates were ruined by trivial events that proved nothing like
the Dukakis tank ride, Howard Dean's scream, Hillary's deplorable statement, etc. It makes the whole process seem random and unserious.

Chuck said...

I posted one single comment on this page. I intended to leave it at one comment.

I responded directly to something in Althouse's main blog post, without mention of or reference to any other commenter.

So now look at the personal attacks on me on this page.

I'll quote Althouse again: "Try to keep on topic and avoid personal back-and-forth with other commenters."

This is some kinda moderation.

narciso said...

Hers just a flavor of her other writing:

https://www.chronicle.com/blognetwork/tenuredradical/2011/08/putting-the-exceptionalism-back-in-does-sarah-palin-have-a-shot-at-the-nomination/

rehajm said...

I accidentally read one of Chuck’s posts. He’s still whinging about moderation?

mockturtle said...

Buwaya links speech: Eva Peron's Last Speech

Great speech. Nicely enhanced by Mozart's Requiem.

Mary Beth said...

Charismatic people seem approachable. Hillary has never given that impression.

Birkel said...

What is the world coming to when a Smear Merchant is not allowed to post drive-by bull shit about religion?
Meade summed you nicely, above, you pusillanimous taint.

tim in vermont said...

Clearly, Trump committed felonies.

Somebody here said that whenever a speaker uses the word “clearly,” it’s a tell that they are bullshitting. I see their point.

Nichevo said...

A very good book that gets at competing theories and approaches is Cicero's "De Oratore". Compare the opinions of Antonius and Crassus therein; and compare Trumps approach to Antonius. And then, and then, the true master, in Ciceros opinion, Caesar, a natural, on wit, see book 2, 217-290, and then reconsider Trump.


Oh, yeah, Buwaya, I'll just download and whip through that 524 page book right away, before moderation hits this post. You could at least provide links if not quotes. It's not like you'd be depriving Cicero of his royalties.

buwaya said...

Nichevo,

It is futile to try educate through the medium of internet commentary.
It is an absurd expectation.
One can, at best, provide a reference, a starting point, to what really are masses of material.

DavidD said...

rehajm said...
seemed proof for many that the likability game was permanently rigged in favor of men

Why not just admit she could be a fucking horrible candidate? Yes, she's a sour and unlikeable but it could also have something to do with the baggage, the corruption, the scandals, the whatever her relationship to Bill is, the hypocrisy, the phoniness.

It doesn't reflect well on women to not see these things. Maybe that's part of the problem, too?

...

Well, that and the fact that the Democrat Party platform demonstrates a shared distaste for deplorables.

I didn’t vote for Donald Trump because I liked him. I voted for him because he was running as a Republican.

Nichevo said...

buwaya said...
Nichevo,

It is futile to try educate through the medium of internet commentary.
It is an absurd expectation.
One can, at best, provide a reference, a starting point, to what really are masses of material.

5/5/19, 1:01 PM



How true. There is so much that has been lost.

narciso said...

At the beginning:
https://tenured-radical.blogspot.com/2008/08/?m=1

readering said...

Which is it, likable or likeable?

Mark Jones said...

etbass said, "I think the haters hate because Trump has refused to accept their hypocrisy and evil. He has shown them to be what they really are and has punched through their shield, the mainstream media."

I think it's more than that. Trump refuses to cede the moral high ground. He doesn't cower and apologize like eGOP politicians when they're attacked by leftists, implictly admitting that he's vile and his political views inferior to theirs. He punches back, saying that THEY are the ones brimming with hypocrisy and evil, that he stands with real Americans and real American values to oppose them.

They HATE that. Not just because it's true (though it is), but because it shows that they're mostly paper tigers. If you don't give a shit about their opinions, 90% of their political power over you dissipates. The other 10%, based on their ability to manipulate the government in their favor, remains--but since most of their power consists of maintaining the illusion of moral and legal superiority, laughing at them hurts them a lot.

bleh said...

To me, both Trump and Obama are very unlikable. Clinton and Bush are both likable. Sometimes I prefer the likable candidate, sometimes I don’t.

Drago said...

Friar Chuck: "I posted one single comment on this page. I intended to leave it at one comment."

Your hilarious and moronic attempt to establish ypurself as some sort of core Christian belief authority as well as reader of minds, combined with your long long long history of admitted "Smear Merchant-ry" and pitch perfect alignment with bad faith far left talking points met PRECISELY the sort of response it deserved.

Yiur history of attacking children and posting racist comments only increased the requirement for a response to your far left drivel.

If this reality adjustment upsets you, I would strongly recomend you follow previously offered "guidance" from meade regarding posting here.

Friar Chuck's desperate attempt to establish a lefty billionaire directed lefty talking point free fire zone here at Althouse is likely to continue to fail.

As it should.

Yancey Ward said...

For thousands of years, the wheat and potato fields you worked didn't have any fucks to give about how likable you were.

Big Mike said...

Without reading it (it's behind a paywall), I assert that this article is wrong on numerous levels.

First, as regards likeability in a presidential election, we can date the point where it became an issue with great precision: the Nixon - Kennedy debates in 1960. William Manchester's two-volume history of the United States from 1932 to 1972, "The Glory and the Dream," contains the interesting fact that people who heard the debate on the radio thought Nixon won it handily. But the people who saw the debate on TV thought that Kennedy won it. Clearly they found Kennedy to be more likeable than "Tricky Dick." So men may have "invented" likeability in the 19th century, but it played little or no role in presidential politics until past the midpoint of the 20th.

Second, I recall from long ago reading that women who genuinely want to be liked, usually wind up being liked, while men who try hard to be liked are usually despised. So I infer two things from that: (1) Hillary Clinton didn't, and still doesn't, much care whether she is liked or not, and (2) Trump's likeability is a reflection of his not giving a damn whether he is liked or not.

Third, the decision of whom to vote for is complicated, and likeability is only one component. Other components include integrity (a word that hardly any 21st century Democrat seems to comprehend at all), value system, and policies on the issues I care about. Hillary Clinton's open, positively blatant, corruption should have been disqualifying, and I am glad that enough voters in enough states agreed with me.

And finally, I am way past caring very much for articles along the lines of "we poor little women are always kept down by the patriarchy." Glad to see that Althouse is ready to push back on them.

readering said...

Truman over Dewey seems a triumph of likability.

readering said...

Who wants to die on the hill of Trump as Christian? He's even mean to horses!

wwww said...

Were the Robber Barons likeable? Were Carnegie, Rockefeller and Ford?


The growth of job opportunities in cities and towns change the importance of personality. In 1790, almost all Americans were farmers or planters or working on farms. By 1860, more then 50% of Americans live in small towns, larger towns, or cities. Many worked for others for wages. Many still work for wages paid by others. Many employees need to be likeable, unless they are the boss. If they are the boss, they need to be liked by their superior. If they have no superior, they do not need to be liked by anyone.

I am not speaking of sharecroppers or slaves, or renters of land. I am speaking of yeomen farmers. A farmer, who owns his own land, is a master of his domain. A lot of Americans owned farmland before the Civil War. That farmer is not an employee. A farmer in Indiana selling his corn or wheat on the 19th century railroad did not need to be liked. The railroad would ship it to the east coast even if the farmer was a curmudgeon.

Media changes things. Much more privacy in the 19th century, before telephones and radio. Nobody wants someone on their TV screen who comes across as annoying. But "annoying" is subjective. Some people have more tolerance for certain mannerisms, voice tone, jokes, or ways of speaking. Someone can come across as hilarious to one person, but annoying to someone else.

Drago said...

readering: "Who wants to die on the hill of Trump as Christian?"

I do.

He opposes the infanticide and selling of baby parts that you support..

So lets start there.

Achilles said...

readering said...
Who wants to die on the hill of Trump as Christian? He's even mean to horses!

Trump is the most honest president we have had in decades if not centuries. He is doing exactly what he campaigned on doing.

I know this is hard for a democrat voter to understand. Obama lied right to your face repeatedly. And you took it like a champ.

You still worship him.

Trump emerges as an unexpected champion in the White House for evangelicals.

>>> "I will never let you down," the president said to the room. <<<


“We’ve never seen an administration more inclusive to the evangelical community,” Jentezen Franklin, an evangelical pastor, said. “It’s unlike any that many of us have been around have seen. We don't agree with everything he says or does, but [are] thankful for his policy -- for being pro-life, and for a traditional family.”

“He’s a fighter and he fights for things he believes in like the right to life – he’s not politically correct but he’s willing to take on the difficult issues,” Jack Graham, a Southern Baptist preacher and member of the White House Faith and Opportunity Initiative, said.


But like I said above you people seek dishonesty. You are constantly voting for traitors and criminals.

readering said...

Weird.

readering said...

Trump believes only in votes. Wants to avoid "you're fired."

Anonymous said...

Trenchant assertion is Readering's stock in trade.

Nichevo said...

Anonymous said...
Trenchant assertion is Readering's stock in trade.

Foreigners are like that.

Bilwick said...

I'd rather have a pro-freedom president with the personality of Miss Gulch in the Wizard of Oz than some glad-handing how-ya-doin' type with a Pepsodent smile and a statist agenda. But then I like freedom a lot. I'm funny that way.

narciso said...

like I've stated in the past, he's a blunt instrument, now palin was earnest to a fault, a reformist politician, in the way warren and Clinton can never be,

Greg Q said...

Carnegie noted, had made it impossible not to like him, but Henrietta G., now the 'best liked' counselor at her office, had been isolated until she learned to stop bragging. (Though looking back, we have to wonder: Would Henry G. have needed to hide his accomplishments?)


What an idiot. "Not bragging" doesn't mean "hide your accomplishments." It means not puffing up molehills into mountains.
Roosevelt's actions portrayed that he cared about other people. Henrietta's bragging showed she only cared about herself.


Likability is associated with an emotional connection between candidate and voter that makes a politician worthy of trust.

And with her massive collection of corrupt and criminal actions, Hillary showed she wasn't worthy of trust, and therefore wasn't likable.