July 7, 2018

"The European Union has always been sold, to its citizens, on a practical basis: Cheaper products. Easier travel. Prosperity and security."

"But its founding leaders had something larger in mind. They conceived it as a radical experiment to transcend the nation-state, whose core ideas of race-based identity and zero-sum competition had brought disaster twice in the space of a generation.... [I]nstead of overcoming [feelings of national identity], European leaders pretended it didn’t exist. More damning, the entirely avoided [sic] mentioning what Europeans would need to give up: a degree of their deeply felt national identities and hard-won national sovereignty. Now, as Europeans struggle with the social and political strains set off by migration from poor and war-torn nations outside the bloc, some are clamoring to preserve what they feel they never consented to surrender. Their fight with European leaders is exploding over an issue that, perhaps more than any other, exposes the contradiction between the dream of the European Union and the reality of European nations: borders.... It is not easy for Europeans to abandon the old-style national identity, rooted in race and language, that has caused them such trouble. The human desire for a strong group identity — and for perceived homogeneity within that group — runs deep."

Writes Max Fisher in "Why Europe Could Melt Down Over a Simple Question of Borders" (NYT).

The most highly rated comment there is: "It's one thing to merge with other countries in Europe. It's another to feel like one is merging with the Middle East or Africa. the EU was not supposed to be about that." Second highest rated: "It is one thing for a nation like Germany to share a common market and porous border with Luxembourg or Belgium. It is quite another to share one de facto with Syria and Chad."

134 comments:

MadisonMan said...

Those commenters don't seem very woke.

jj121957 said...

Maybe I'm not properly woke, but those highest rated comments look kinda racist.

Chest Rockwell said...

I'm currently vacationing in Sweden for two weeks. It's my third trip here in four years.

When I was here in 2015, the Swedish Democrats were a dirty name. Not so much now. Back then everyone was whispering how bad immigration was, but didn't know what to do to fix it. Certainly not vote for SD. Boy have times changed.

The only noticable difference I see on the street is more cops at the Central Station. Otherwise, looks the same.

Stockholm is an awesome city. I highly recommend a visit if you're looking to be get off the beaten path in Europe.

LincolnTf said...

Brexit restored some of my faith that the EU will collapse eventually. It's also why I'm rooting for England in the World Cup (which will probably jinx them).

Fernandinande said...

Now, as Europeans struggle with the social and political strains set off by migration

Wait! I thunk migrants worked all day and didn't collect welfare or commit crimes, so why the "struggle" and "strain"? Too vibrant?

It is not easy for Europeans to abandon the old-style national identity, rooted in race and language, that has caused them such trouble.

"Europeans" meaning Germans, and besides that, "old-style national identity, rooted in race and language" is for indigenous people, which Europeans aren't.

Ken B said...

The big lie: “simple”.

Michael K said...

The original idea was a "United States of Europe" which was probably too tough with the language issue.

The nullification by some US states and cities suggests that it was not a perfect model.

David Begley said...

Are the French, Germans and English different races? Or all Caucasians who speak different languages.

For the Left, everything is about race and tribalism. Back to Blood.

Bay Area Guy said...

Nothing says national pride like permitting thousands of unskilled Muslims to enter your country, who don't assimilate and want to impose Sharia Law, because.......Diversity

tcrosse said...

Hungary was ruled for a time by the Turks, so the Hungarians have a hard time being sentimental about Muslims.

Original Mike said...

Likewise, it is one thing for the US to have an open border with Canada. It is quite another to have one with Central America.

Bill Peschel said...

" The human desire for a strong group identity — and for perceived homogeneity within that group — runs deep."

It's not just a desire; it's hardwired into us. We need to rely on a small group of people for security and reassurance. I'm sure there are even studies that show that feelings of isolation and alienation affect your health.

And yet National Review conservatives look down their noses at people who choose to stay within that protective and self-supporting circle after their area has been destroyed by the globalization elite.

John henry said...

Oriana Fallaci was writing about the problem of "Eurabia" 25 years ago. She was so vocal that she essentially was exiled to the US and died here. She had been convicted of something like hate speech and would have been jailed had she returned to Italy.

One helluva good writer. I particularly enjoyed "the rage and the passion" available via Ann's portal

John Henry

Martin said...

For once, the NYT commenters seem to be thinking clearly.

rhhardin said...

National identity isn't rooted in race. It can correlate with race, but race isn't the reason.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

The diversitists at NYT think that assimilation requires people to change the color of their skin. That, and they are acutely fearful that the veil of privacy obfuscating the collateral damage from global social justice adventures will be lifted to expose the injustice, reform, trails, and cages that lie beneath.

Sebastian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sebastian said...

Three issues being confused here:

1. The "overcoming" of the nation-state was always going to be a problem, but had a chance: EU elitism is strong, and integration had significant benefits.

2. The project didn't reckon with Muslims not eager to assimilate into the enlightened culture. Contradictions abound: you can't have a gay-loving peaceful civil society while importing homophobic, antisemitic, sexist minorities who dislike the kaffirs. See Rotherham, Cologne, Paris, Nice.

3. Internal integration and welfare-state social protection assume effective external borders. Prog open-borders humanitarianism destroys the project from within. Which some of them intend, considering that the black and Muslim Other is superior to the white racist natives. Except that the white racist natives are now pushing back.

Historically, the EEC and the EU were especially intended to tame Germany and stick it to the euro deplorables. Some of them were actually deplorable.

gspencer said...

"some are clamoring to preserve what they feel they never consented to surrender"

Isn't that a complaint of long-standing?

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

And the left, then as now, dupes the people by promising one thing but saddling the people with another.

Oso Negro said...

I have noticed that every European football team has an African striker or forward. So they aren’t too picky about that

mockturtle said...

No clue for the clueless.

Yancey Ward said...

The problem is pretty simple- when you start the process of dissolving borders, such as happened within the EU, you have surrendered the principle that any border should exist. How do you argue for no border between Poland and Germany, but then argue for one between Turkey and Greece, or Italy and Libya? The principle is either defended, or it is abandoned.

The population of Africa will more than double between now and 2050 while the native population of the EU will slowly decline from today's level. Solve for the equilibrium.

mockturtle said...

In the past, a nation-state could be overcome militarily--conquered by might. The conquered had to accept that the other team won and adapt. Just opening the doors and letting everyone in is not just stupid but defies rationality. It is to be conquered without a fight.

MountainMan said...

People who keep aquariums know not to put incompatible fish into the same tank. - Michael Yon

robother said...

The idiocy of progressive political correctness, where control of what can be said leads to absurd thinking is on display in this NYTimes piece. Open borders between Belgium and Germany cannot be said to be different than open borders between Germany and Syria.

Even with the language differences, it is not hard to imagine a European Union uniting around a common culture and heritage, enjoying free trade and travel. But to suggest, as the Austrian and Hungarian PMs do, that European external borders must be stronger to allow that internal unification to continue is, to the politically correct Progressives of Europe and America. literallly unthinkable.

Unknown said...

Eliminating borders sounds like the definition of a melt-down.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

People want to move where the freedom is.

Funny, that.

Marc in Eugene said...

Thankfully, LincolnTf, no jinx, England defeating Sweden-- on to Croatia or Russia.

Molly said...

(eaglebeak)

Euro leaders wanted a United States of Europe--but it turns out, unsurprisingly, that that's not possible unless there is a founding idea on which the structure is based.

The United States of America is based on an idea, or a series of related ideas, expressed in the Declaration, which is why you can be any race, creed, etc., and be first and foremost an American.

But Europe is not based on an idea. It is based on closely related ethnic groups with (by and large) closely related Indo-European languages (some exceptions: Basque, Finnish, Magyar) and a shared history. That creates both closeness and constant fights, but it doesn't create a single state and the various Europeans don't want to be in a single state, despite the globalist fantasies of their leaders.

Nor do they want their cultures overwhelmed by someone else's.

Mary Beth said...

On the plus side, they got döner kebab restaurants out of it.

LincolnTf said...

Good show, ol' Blighty!

Seeing Red said...

They hate US. They wanted to be better than US. So they tried to become the United States of Europe and show US how integration is done.

mockturtle said...

A new US citizen from Bangladesh is quoted: “New York is so easy to handle, you can go everywhere…You can study here, you can (get) financial aid. In Bangladesh, you have to pay a lot of money (to study),” Zaman, 25, who is studying at LaGuardia Community College and hoping to pursue a career in health administration, told the New York newspaper. Emphasis mine.

Who knew that, in the US, we don't have to pay 'a lot of money' to go to college?!

Seeing Red said...

I never understood no borders because then there’s no laws or structure.

Whose rules?

FIDO said...

One would think that Europe would have been instructive to OUR elites.

Alas, our Elites are not what they used to be.

J. Farmer said...

Steve Sailer does an able job fisking this article here.

Bay Area Guy said...

There are Leftists in America, there are Leftists in Europe Both groups, if and when they get power, will further accelerate the collapse of both cultures and political systems of Govt.

mockturtle said...

I never understood no borders because then there’s no laws or structure.

Whose rules?


Exactly, Red! The law would have to be--are you ready?--a New World Order! And someone would have to be head of that order. Tyranny of the worst sort. What are these people thinking? Have they completely drunk the Kool-aid? As Mark Steyn wrote in America Alone, we are the last hope. Already, too many have partaken of the sugary drink to see clearly.

Jupiter said...

Molly said...

"The United States of America is based on an idea, or a series of related ideas, expressed in the Declaration, which is why you can be any race, creed, etc., and be first and foremost an American."

You cannot be a Muslim and be first and foremost an American, or anything else. You are first and foremost a voluntary member of a military organization dedicated to control of the entire Earth.

hstad said...

Blogger Oso Negro said...
I have noticed that every European football team has an African striker or forward. So they aren’t too picky about that 7/7/18, 10:10 AM

Astute observation, but needs to be expanded! Europe has had non-white immigrants move to their home countries for well over 100 years. The Empires allowed immigrants from their colonies in Asia, Africa and the Middle East. After the Algerian Civil War, France granted favorable immigration status to those Algerians who sided with France, thus they began French citizens[way back in the 1950s - 1960s. That also occurred in most of the other countries who are foreign colonies. Hell even the U.S.A. granted asylum to 1,000s of Vietnamese, Cambodian, etc., after the Vietnam War. The writer of this article essentially is ignorant of anything but their own political narrative[fake news].

gilbar said...

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
Careful there gspencer! don't go getting us in trouble with facebook, with your HATE SPEECH!
Facebook censors Declaration of Independence

Of course, we shouldn't worry; 'cause Snopes.com says that that is just "a mixture" of truth; 'cause they only censored the parts of the declaration that they didn't like
snopes.com , which is kinda cool:
It's only a mixture of truth that i cheated on the test Prof; i only copied the parts i didn't know

Yancey Ward said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Etienne said...

Moving NATO east into previous Warsaw Pact states was a dumber idea than allowing a few Rag-Heads and Abyssinian's to make camp in the wine countries.

Europe needs to get the US out before it kills them all. Russians deploying chemical weapons will ruin your day, Europeans or Migrants. Just ask the Brits.

traditionalguy said...

We are watching the Roman Empires successors in a crab bucket. Germany has the big claw for now. The Brits just crawled out. NATO keeps the new world order in business at our expense. And Trump laughs.

Quaestor said...

Whenever the phrase "research shows" appears in an argument, especially a political argument, hackles should be raised.

Two-eyed Jack said...

Molly said "The United States of America is based on an idea, or a series of related ideas, expressed in the Declaration, which is why you can be any race, creed, etc., and be first and foremost an American."

This is a kind of sentimental story we tell ourselves, but the ideas of the Declaration, in particular the idea that "all men are created equal" was battled over up through the Civil War (four score and seven years later), and has been in contention since.

One does not become "American" by believing this, here or in some city far across the globe.

America became American because the early Americans had a sparsely settled land where they could look further west if they were not satisfied, a relatively uniform and cohesive culture that was the most open to incorporation of foreign influences of any of the major European cultures, largest non-English speaking immigration from German speaking areas before the unification of a united German state, and a tradition of localism deriving from experiences with religious differences blowing into terrible civil war (Anglican/Puritan wars in 17th century Britain."

Yancey Ward said...

The Sailer fisking of the NYTimes essay was hilarious!

Tina Trent said...

So Euronationalism turns out to be no panacea.

The problem was mis-defined.

How is the EU's zero-sum colonialism over separate European nations any different from the zero-sum colonialism it purports to rise above?

How is Euronationalism different from the nationalism it purports to rise above?

The EU is merely a bigger, stronger form of government.

And national governments are merely smaller, more traditional forms of government.

The Nazis aimed to be a one-world government, as did Stalin and communists everywhere.

Perhaps what the Europeans shoukd have done in response to two world wars was do the opposite of the aggressors of those wars, not more of the same.

The Drill SGT said...

David Begley said...
Are the French, Germans and English different races? Or all Caucasians who speak different languages.


same basic gene pool.

1. Where does France get its name? The German tribe called Franks who pushed the Gauls (Celts) SW
2. Anglo Saxon England? the Angles and Saxons? two more German tribes that pushed Celts SW
3. Germany? The home of Franks, Angles, Saxons, and oh BTW, the Visgoths that conquered Spain and Italy
4. Netherlands? a country of Germanic folk who were stay at homes that have Dutch passports

Seeing Red said...

The Europeans can’t help themselves. They are serfs/subjects/ feudalism and it’s the only way they know. We’ve always scared them.

Look at how they’re trying to prop up the Black Turbans of Iran.

OTOH, I do recognize their need for “stability.”

We broke the mold and turned the world on its ear.

I am not throwing away my shot!
I am not throwing away my shot!
Hey yo, I'm just like my country
I'm young, scrappy and hungry

source: http://www.lyricsondemand.com/soundtracks/h/hamiltonlyrics/myshotlyrics.html

M Jordan said...

Liberals always fail because they think they know more than the accumulated wisdom of the slow, natural evolution of society. They “engineer” societal change and their engineering is always fated by hubris and false premises. I mean really, Marxism? People will share? It’s absurd at the most basic level but somehow Marxism manages to return every thirty years wearing a new mask that liberals fall in love with.

cubanbob said...

What the Krauts in part tried to do in two world wars was about to be achieved by the Krauts without firing a shot is about to blown apart by Merkel's intransigent arrogance and foolishness.

n.n said...

What the Europeans probably oppose is excessive immigration. That is immigration that exceeds the rate of assimilation and integration before Planned Parenthood. The issue is not diversity, but, ironically, stability.

tcrosse said...

Minnesota seems to share a porous border with Somalia.

mockturtle said...

Minnesota seems to share a porous border with Somalia.

Indeed.

Achilles said...

The globalists are just doing their thing.

They are trying to destroy Europe too.

Nothing complicated here.

mockturtle said...

I think even Merkel realizes it's gone too far but it's too late. You can't put the toothpaste back into the tube.

Narayanan said...

Those who fail to learn lessons from Europe will be forced to repeat its political course.

Narayanan said...

May seems to be scuppering brexit already.

Michael K said...


David Begley said...
Are the French, Germans and English different races? Or all Caucasians who speak different languages.

same basic gene pool.

The IndoEuropeans invaded from the Steppes about 10,000 years ago and pretty much wiped out the hunter gatherers. The IndoEuropeans domesticated the horse and invented the wheel, at least as a means of transportation.

The hunter-gatherers survive only in mitochondrial DNA, as the males raped all the women and killed all the men, as usual.

They also went southeast and the Iranians are descended from them, as well.

bagoh20 said...

So in attempting to unifying Europe under a socialist government, Hitler was way ahead of his time.

Michael K said...

a relatively uniform and cohesive culture that was the most open to incorporation of foreign influences of any of the major European cultures,

And no welfare state to attract the lazy and worthless.

Narayanan said...

And why are you leaving out India from IndoEuropean and Caucasian?

Anonymous said...

Immigration is the fuse to the bomb of opposition to the out of control European Union. The EU started as a monetary union that made sense, the addition of free passage state to state made sense along with duty reductions. Once the EU somehow decided to become an umbrella government over all its members the bomb was ready. I have a hard time imagining the Germans and French continuing to submit to the EU's overreach. Of course, today's Germans are a puzzling lot, but I suspect their national pride will not lie dormant forever. We know the French are a very prideful people as well. With the threat - or actuality - of withdrawal or shrinkage of the US European defense umbrella there are bound be nationalists in all the EU countries that realize they can no longer continue as they have been. With that rise in consciousness one of the first questions that will be asked is why support the EU when it does nothing for the defense of our nation. The immigration question is really that question.

Darrell said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Darrell said...

Soros's plan for Europe is proceeding as expected. It was designed to generate the results we have seen and that was expected to generate Leftist governance that would solve the problems. Just as the CNN and MSNBC cameramen with Hillary backstage on election night knew to shut their cameras off and point them away when Hillary threw the bottle of Champagne through the big screen OLED monitor from the Saudis and started hitting Mook and Podesta--the Leftist-controlled Media cameras will not record what happened to the problematic Muslims after the Leftist takeover.

Two-eyed Jack said...

I said America became the nation it did because, in part, it had "a relatively uniform and cohesive culture that was the most open to incorporation of foreign influences of any of the major European cultures."

Michael K added "And no welfare state to attract the lazy and worthless."

I reject this, in part because it is rather ahistorical, since no nation had a welfare state at the relevant time, but also because a relatively uniform and cohesive culture is what gives rise to the welfare state. You don't just get a welfare state, so it is not a prior condition.

chuck said...

> They conceived it as a radical experiment to transcend the nation-state

Well, they had the multi-ethnic Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ottoman Empire, and the Russian Empire, and those multi-ethnic empires were deeply involved in the first disaster. Now the empire of the European Union isn't doing so well either. Maybe they should revive the Holy Roman Empire? Just a thought.

I'm Full of Soup said...

"Not what we voted for". We can relate to this when a refugee from the Congo, who now hates "white" America, scales the Statue of Liberty to protest for Open Borders.

sinz52 said...

The Drill SGT said: "same basic gene pool."

In fact, linguists classify English as a Germanic language. Old English resembled Old High German, with a similar system of inflections.

PhilD said...

As an European I can say that;
- I am for an European Union, as far as possible, if nothing else as a counter weight to the Russian robber state
- I hate, despise and loath the present "EU" and want it terminated with prejudice
- I believe there is such a thing as a common European culture. There are differences between the nation states but the fundamentals of society are the same. There is a divide between Catholic (including ex-Catholic) and Orthodox societies, surmountable I think. And there is a divide between Christian and islamic countries which is quit different.
- Racial divides in Europe aren't that important. The Polish soldiers who stayed in my country after WW2 (thanks to Uncle Joe and his Western sycophants) had no trouble integrating at all. Nor did for that matter the after war Italian "guest workers". There has always been a cosmopolitan side to Europe.

Now as my opinion of the USA:
- your "melting pot" worked well enough for part of the population. But then your European colonials came to you pre-melted.
- I'm always surprised at the gratuitous hatred shown to Europe, mostly by the Right (some fine examples of idiots commenting here btw). It seems to me on a par with the Left's hatred. The other side of the coin, so to speak, but also pathological. 2 minutes of hate isn't only on the Left.
- the USA and Europe are both Left-infested and the reason for that seems to be much the same, though the results may differ (for now). Both born from the nihilism of the sixties and the subsequent cultural suicide.And the USA was just as influential in bringing about that new 'culture' as anyone. More so I think thanks to your influence. To put it in other words, something like 'Roe vs Wade' was also a disaster for us.

And a few other things
- Germany this, Germany that. Historically speaking I would say the French have been worse (being Flemish I'm, a bit prejudiced here). History is more than the last century. For instance, before the French Revolution Germany was rather dormant.
- Ditto with a Merkel. I regard her as a traitor but she is hardly the only one. But anyway, she isn't responsible for the cover up of the grooming gangs in the UK, for the French no-go zones, for the, long before her time, influx of 'guest workers' since the 1960s ...
- all in all, discussing these things always seem to devolve in a circular firing squad. Pity because I also firmly believe that the US and Europe share the same basic culture and that that culture is worthwhile.

rehajm said...

It's not just a desire; it's hardwired into us

Yes, humans are tribal.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Fisher and friends are confused in thinking that nationalism is as rigid an identity construct as they assume. It's not. It's new - within a few centuries. Beforehand the theocratic church governing Europe was given as much as or way more power. The Peace of Westphalia established the sovereignty of the nation state and was crucial in developing modern political norms and international law, but that doesn't mean it has to be supreme. The proto-E.U. project of collectivizing coal and steel markets was probably just as noble, and trans-national governments will continue to grow - in South America, the ASEAN, African Union and Arab League. American immigrants were happy to shed national identities for a newer trans-national one upon arriving here. If this way forward doesn't progress than previously avoidable conflicts become inevitable.

I remember all the French going back and forth to Britain pre-Brexit and vice versa, with the merging of languages as English became one of a coupe or three working languages across the continent. What a silly thing to want to do away with all this in the name of "memories!" We can keep place-names and local traditions and minor languages and all of the other sorts of things that the E.U. was doing a great job of preserving. The problem came about due to its weak stance on Mediterranean immigration and the democracy deficit at the top. Time was right to transition to a popularly elected leader, and it missed the train. It's still all committees and councils at the top (and rotating, un-elected presidents) and this won't do. If they want there to be a common Europe than there has to be a common politics to engage.

My $0.02.

Anonymous said...

PhilD @2:49: good post; post more. Couple of comments:

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "colonial" here - "your 'melting pot' worked well enough for part of the population. But then your European colonials came to you pre-melted" - yes. (I like that "pre-melted".) A lot of Americans are delusional about why their alleged "proposition nation" works (or worked). There's no such thing as a "proposition nation". The abstract propositions are a product of a culture and history; the culture isn't made by abstract propositions.

And the USA was just as influential in bringing about that new 'culture' as anyone. More so I think thanks to your influence. To put it in other words, something like 'Roe vs Wade' was also a disaster for us.

A lot of American Euro-bashing "conservatives" seem to be unaware of just how much progressive Clown World propaganda is being (and has been) shoveled into Europe by their very own government (both R and D administrations). That includes the current promotion of mass non-European migration and "diversity". The fabled evil Soros has nothing on Uncle Sam. (Be fun to make a chart of how they're working together, lol.)

Pity because I also firmly believe that the US and Europe share the same basic culture and that that culture is worthwhile.

Yes, and that it was a shared culture was explicitly understood in my own lifetime. Americans were "Europeans" in the civilizational sense, and this was explicitly transmitted through the educational system, from primary school on. It's remarkable to have seen "conservatives" (well, conservatives(tm); "National Review" conservatives) join the progs in the effort to pull out the roots that's been going on since the '60s.

Sam L. said...

If those are the top-rated comments, NYT is NOT listening to their readers. Or, these are not NYC NYT readers.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The right-wingers are stupid enough to think that language is the ultimate, sole determiner of identity because well, they're technologically inept and never heard of language translation apps.

AI will make ethnic identity obsolete - at least as a force to determine all major power struggles and conflict.

god are these people stupid.

tcrosse said...

The right-wingers are stupid enough to think that language is the ultimate, sole determiner of identity because well, they're technologically inept and never heard of language translation apps.

My French-Canadian relatives would agree. God are those people stupid.

Kevin said...

Meanwhile our elites think: "It is one thing for a state like New York to share a common market and porous border with Connecticut or New Jersey. It is quite another to share one de facto with Texas and Tennessee."

Kevin said...

It's ironic the Americans who most want to divorce themselves from the other half of America are so adamant that Brexit is wrong and the EU must stay together.

I guess togetherness for them is all a matter of who gets to call the shots.

Kevin said...

Since all the remaining World Cup teams are from Europe, I guess no one is supposed to care which wins.

I guess this EU thing has quite a ways to go.

Rick said...

Bait and switch is the most common form of scam.

Jon Ericson said...

Ah, the frisson is still here as long as Pedro lets us know how to think. lulz.

Jon Ericson said...

Pedro on, dude.

Rick said...

The most frustrating part of the Euro-scam is that people in the know predicted this when it started and the left derided them as lunatics. When they turned out to be correct the left claimed anyone who didn't understand this was the end-point was an idiot.

Remember this whenever the left claims your understanding of their end goal is crazy. Eventually they'll claim everyone always understood you were right.

n.n said...

The European Economic Community is still viable. The European Union, however, is divided through diversity.

Two-eyed Jack said...

tcrosse said "AI will make ethnic identity obsolete - at least as a force to determine all major power struggles and conflict."

Similarly telephones have dissolved distance. And propaganda has made all workers into New Soviet Men, unmotivated by greed. And diversity has strengthened community bonds everywhere.

I find your argument utterly convincing. Right-wingers are incredibly stupid.

Also, the 'g' in God should be capitalized.

Jon Ericson said...

Great comment.

Jon Ericson said...

Looking for a piggy comment next.

Jon Ericson said...

Reach out and attempt to touch me.

Bob Loblaw said...

'm always surprised at the gratuitous hatred shown to Europe, mostly by the Right (some fine examples of idiots commenting here btw). It seems to me on a par with the Left's hatred. The other side of the coin, so to speak, but also pathological. 2 minutes of hate isn't only on the Left.

It's not hatred. It's sadness. We're watching you destroy yourselves and are helpless to do anything about it.

Two-eyed Jack said...

I'm sorry, I was agreeing with President Tape, not tcrosse.

Jon Ericson said...

Apology accepted. *rolls eyes*

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

I think the problem with the EU is that its leadership looked at the American example and said, "Hey, we can do that, too!" It's quite true that in the early days of the US, the states were actually states, held together only by their common allegiance to Britain and theoretically capable of going each its own way once that allegiance was thrown off in 1776. But the divides between the states were as nothing compared to, say, the divide between England and France (to say nothing of England and Ireland!), or France and Germany. (PhilD, you say that Germany was rather "dormant" until after the French Revolution. Actually, Germany more or less as it now is didn't exist at all until decades after the French Revolution. And the moment it did get its act together, what was the first thing it did? Why, invade France, naturally.)

This is not just a matter of keeping old customs or even old languages. It's fundamentally about whether there is such a thing as "nationality," and whether it matters, or rather ought to be permitted to matter. I am passionately of the opinion that it does matter, as much as anything on earth. I hate being called a "nationalist," because the term is now basically synonymous with "neo-Nazi." But, really, what can you expect, when all "reputable" opinion tells you that borders everywhere are dissolving, and soon whether you're British or Danish will hinge on whether you had bangers and mash or aeblskiver for breakfast?

People who object to this sort of anodyne "cultural expression" will find routes to express it, some of which others won't like. But, honestly, what does it take to be labeled a "far-right" party in Europe today? Two things, right? One is hostility to open borders, and the other is opposition to the EU. If those are enough to make me a neo-Nazi, I suppose you'd better count me in.

In the meantime, if you actually look at the EU, you have everything from actual neo-Nazi parties (Golden Dawn, I'm looking at you); to pretty creepy developments in Poland and Hungary; to Italy, governed presently by a coalition of everyone but Those Who Are Supposed To Govern; to France, where Marine Le Pen has renounced anti-Semitism and taken to denouncing those "Frenchmen" who actually do support it; to Germany, where Merkel is holding on by the skin of her teeth; to Britain, which is doing itself credit by not backing out of Brexit, not yet.

All in all, it doesn't look like a continent going Fascist. It looks to me like one that has simply been pushed too hard, and is rebelling. (Note that I didn't say "too fast." Any way towards the giant European blob is going to be wrong, no matter how incremental it is.) Our -- OK, their (I live in the US) -- best bet going forward is to take the EU to pieces more or less in the reverse order that it was set up.

tcrosse said...

tcrosse said "AI will make ethnic identity obsolete - at least as a force to determine all major power struggles and conflict."

I was only quoting Ritmo.

n.n said...

The Liberal's concept of diversity normalizes color judgments and denies individual dignity. It is a progressive form of racism (i.e. bigoted or sanctimonious hypocrisy) that is discounted by civilized people. The problem for Europeans is excessive immigration or immigration that exceeds the rate of assimilation and integration before Planned Parenthood. That said, other problems include catastrophic anthropogenic immigration reform forced by social justice adventures and a cover-up for a lack of emigration reform for purposes of redistributive change.

Michael said...

PPT
"The right-wingers are stupid enough to think that language is the ultimate, sole determiner of identity because well, they're technologically inept and never heard of language translation apps. "

Well ,of course, no one would view language as the sole determiner of identity. And only a fool would think language translation apps accurately reflect the intended meaning or even could if "perfected". How many translations of War and Peace? And why.

The Godfather said...

If you study the early history of the US and the American colonies, as I've been doing for decades and lately, you'd be reminded that it wasn't easy making a single nation out of 13 mostly-English colonies (and then those "states" that came along later). It took more than four score and seven years and more than 600,000 casualties to do it.

One of the reasons it worked as well as it did is that there was political involvement in the process by the people of the various and diverse State communities. In the end, it took a terrible war to resolve one of the major conflicts.

It seems to me that the EU has tried to avoid conflict by giving the power to technocrats and bureaucrats; the European "Parliament" seems to be nothing but a debating society. There is, in the US, an "America" and there has been for a long time, in a way that there is not now a "Europe".

mandrewa said...

Tribalism is the natural state of mankind. The evidence is everywhere and all around us. Immigrants bring their tribalisms and other attitudes with them.

The real history of mankind, if you could get past all the lies, is filled with genocide.

If small numbers of people from an ethnic group immigrate to the United States there is a reasonable chance they will assimilate. If large numbers immigrate and they are significantly different from the people already here, then they will hold themselves apart and make a separate tribe within the United States and perceive others as enemies and act hatefully towards them.

Most of the world is disfunctional because of the attitudes and beliefs of the people that make up their dominant culture. Immigrating somewhere else does not change that situation. There is a high risk that immigrant cultures will just replicate their disfunctional behavior here.

There is a risk that the natural state of mankind isn't really that far from National Socialism. Young people seem especially strongly attracted to this. For example in Nazi Germany virtually all German youths were Nazi sympathizers, and I'm talking about before the Nazis came to power, even though in the population as a whole Nazi support would have been at most 40%. Of course a lot of this is just conformity rather than opinion of individuals. But that's part of the nature of youth; they are really into to conformity.

There are a remarkable number of destructive and hateful people out there who seemingly have no good reason for being so. We have to ask why.

The United States was founded by libertarians or what we would call libertarians in the current vocabulary. The ideas that dominated the United States for much of its history are unusual in world history. It may not be a stable situation. Quite apart from whatever internal dynamics may be destroying the United States, it's highly likely that outsiders coming in are going to be opposed to these ideas.

German Jews were not immigrants. They were the most successful culture within Germany. Despite being 1% of the population, 50% of all German doctors were Jewish. In no other field did Jews achieve quite that level of dominance, but there were many areas where Jewish success was far out of proportion to their numbers.

Look out for those who are consumed with envy and hate for the successful.

Sebastian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sebastian said...

@PhilD:

"I hate, despise and loath the present "EU" and want it terminated with prejudice"" Same here. If only the euros had listened to their own liberals, and reduced the EU to its "core tasks."

"I'm always surprised at the gratuitous hatred shown to Europe, mostly by the Right (some fine examples of idiots commenting here btw)" What "gratuitous hatred" of "Europe"? I'm not sure any of us would know what it means to hate "Europe."

"Germany this, Germany that. Historically speaking I would say the French have been worse (being Flemish I'm, a bit prejudiced here)." Considering that the Germans repeatedly invaded your lands and the French helped you be part of an independent country, that seems uncharitable. (Or would you prefer to be part of the Netherlands after all?) I've been to Paschendaele and Waterloo--there was a difference.

"Ditto with a Merkel. I regard her as a traitor but she is hardly the only one. But anyway, she isn't responsible for the cover up of the grooming gangs in the UK, for the French no-go zones, for the, long before her time, influx of 'guest workers' since the 1960s" Good thing you refrain from showing "hatred" for "Europe."

Anyway, while I am puzzled by the gratuitous distancing from American conservatives showing supposed "hatred" toward Europe, I am pleased to see some common sense emanating from Belgium. (See, I even resisted the snarky "of all places.")

Michael K said...


Blogger Narayanan Subramanian said...
And why are you leaving out India from IndoEuropean and Caucasian?


That's a bit more confused. The Indus River Valley population may have been the original indigenous civilization but seems to have been attacked and massacred about 4000 BC. That might have been the IndoEuropeans arriving from Iran. They seem not to have reached the souther extremities of India and the Caste system might be a remnant of their presence

Gospace said...

The Flemish and Walloons in the cobbled together country of Belgium can't get along. And they're part of the EU. The Catalonians, part of the EU member state of Spain want to separate from Spain. The Basques want their own country carved out of EU member states. Along with other regions of Spain. There's an active secession movement in Bavaria. Italy, on it's umpteenth government since WWII has, of course, multiple secession movements. Faroe Islands want independence from Denmark.

European nations aren't even united within themselves. The European Union is doomed. Not a question of if, but when. And as immigrants welcomed by the elite but despised by the commoners grow in number, the secessionist movements gain strength.

One difference between the EU and us is- we don't have commoners, we have armed citizens. Much to the dismay of the elite here who wish to rule rather than leave us alone.

Jon Ericson said...

It's like watching stuff grow after Mt. St. Helens.

Jon Ericson said...

The comments, of course, after the scything.

Seeing Red said...

The oroductibmve north wants separation from the non productive south.

Ambrose said...

How long did Charlemagne's HRE last? More than the EU? Same premise - let us be in charge.

Freeman Hunt said...

So shocking that people might not want to be part of an undemocratic super-country run for the benefit of people who seek cheap labor.

Freeman Hunt said...

They don't want to be ruled by a government they have no say in? Ignorant monsters!

Rick said...

I hate being called a "nationalist," because the term is now basically synonymous with "neo-Nazi.

I don't mind being called a "nationalist" precisely because as an American it means being called a patriot.

Rick said...

Kevin said...
It's ironic the Americans who most want to divorce themselves from the other half of America are so adamant that Brexit is wrong and the EU must stay together.


My amusement is because the left claims right wingers are greedy while defending the EU solely on economic terms as if nothing else (like self-determination) matters. Sometimes they accidentally reveal their true priorities and that their entire political framework is a lie.

n.n said...

Nazis were forward thinkers with a global perspective, diversitists (i.e. denied individual dignity), abortionists (i.e. denied life deemed unworthy), and monopolists (i.e. single/central solutions). Neo-Nazis are a shadow of the classical and modern Nazis.

n.n said...

But why limit the conversation to Nazis? There were the Maoists who surpassed the Nazis on every level. There were Hutu who were competitive. There were the Aztecs who practiced abortion rites. There was inter-tribal or intra-tribal genocide of the Anasazi. There was the metaphorical "witch" burning and public lynching of blacks by black supremacists around South Africa. Terrorists throwing terrorists out of windows in the Middle East. And so on and so forth.

n.n said...

German Jews were not immigrants. They were the most successful culture within Germany.

The concept of "White privilege", and now "Asian privilege", borrows from, or is derivative of, the 20th century concept of "Jew privilege".

Rick said...

I'm always surprised at the gratuitous hatred shown to Europe, mostly by the Right (some fine examples of idiots commenting here btw). It seems to me on a par with the Left's hatred. The other side of the coin, so to speak, but also pathological. 2 minutes of hate isn't only on the Left.

UE hatred on the right is driven by the fact that the EU is dominated by the left and is heading lefter. It's not Europe they're rejecting but rather the political left.

I believe there is such a thing as a common European culture.

In this sense the Americans you're rejecting above believe there is both a common EU culture and common EU-American or Western Civ culture.

Ralph L said...

a relatively uniform and cohesive culture
That whole 1861-5 thing was a mere party between relatives in uniform. And for over a century, "damnyankee" was a cohesive word in the uncultured white South.

Unknown said...

It's not just immigration. Coupled with the U.S. pulling out of NATO. Means Billions of losses. Each billion is 100K jobs and more on the welfare rolls. No more socialist heaven. Especially when we charge for IP like we will China. How many iPhone-like inventions? Nice while it lasted. Sign in Manilla, “Yankee go home and take me with you”.

Henry said...

Kind of ironic that the next big World Cup match is between Belgium and France.

Think about it. All the best soccer players in the world play in Spain, England, Italy, France, or Germany, and a few other European countries.

Then, every four years, they play for a national team. And all the fans paint flags on their faces.

mockturtle said...

Then, every four years, they play for a national team. And all the fans paint flags on their faces.

Yeah, you'd think they were--gasp!--nationalists!

rcocean said...

Someone mentioned the Jews.

I just wanted to say, that Jews are the greatest people, ever. Ever.

And I'm sure everyone would agree with that.

And if we could have done ANYTHING - during WW2 - to save Anne Frank. Even if it meant leaving millions of Norwegians, Danes, French, Dutch or Poles to be butchered by the Nazis, we Americans should have helped Ann Frank.

Cause some are more equal then others.

And of course, I will get 100 percent support for this opinion because, Americans Love Jews. Which is the way it should be.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

n.n.,

Thanks for reminding me of "Lebensunwertiges Leben." But the Nazis were strongly pro-birth -- for themselves, at any rate. Remember that other slogan: "Kinder, Kueche, Kirche."

George Spix, the US isn't pulling out of NATO; that's just one of those comments Trump throws out there to start people thinking. Not that it's worked well so far; his opponents are too busy sputtering "But ... but ... he can't do that!" to wrap their heads around it.

Rick, spot-on. I should've said that it's a pity that "nationalist" is today conflated reflexively with neo-Nazism and "white supremacy" (a term that was basically unknown before Trump was elected, but is now everywhere).

The Drill SGT said...

Gospace said...
The Flemish and Walloons in the cobbled together country of Belgium can't get along. And they're part of the EU. The Catalonians, part of the EU member state of Spain want to separate from Spain. The Basques want their own country carved out of EU member states. Along with other regions of Spain. There's an active secession movement in Bavaria. Italy, on it's umpteenth government since WWII has, of course, multiple secession movements. Faroe Islands want independence from Denmark.


The EU encouraged all that regionalism to destroy the idea of the existing nation states.

Achilles said...

No German chancellor has done more to change the demographics of Europe since... oh

Merkel and Obama and the rest of the globalists will go down in history as complete failures.

Achilles said...

It is so hard to figure out why the people of Europe are turning against their benevolent globalist leadership.

The stabbing and beheading is grotesque.

The banning of media coverage by the government is downright evil.

n.n said...

the Nazis were strongly pro-birth -- for themselves

Yes, of course. They were classical progressives in every sense, but their several obsessions, unreconciled conflicts, and hostile externalities, were their undoing. Who knows what could have been in a universe unto themselves.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

Lebensunwertiges Leben

I repeat this concept, not to conflate issues, but to emphasize the logical consequences of this perspective. History has provided us a guide, again, and again, and again. Principles matter.

PhilD said...

"Rick said"

"In this sense the Americans you're rejecting above believe there is both a common EU culture and common EU-American or Western Civ culture."
I'm not rejecting the USA. The whole point of my comment was that we indeed have a common culture.

PhilD said...

"And the moment it did get its act together, what was the first thing it did? Why, invade France, naturally"
France declared war on Germany, just to say.

PhilD said...

"Good thing you refrain from showing "hatred" for "Europe."
Way of missing the point (and quoting without context). Western culture is sick (and has been sick before a Merkel). Stating that does that mean I hate the West? I better refrain of commenting on say an Obama then for fear of expressing 'hatred' for the USA.

Paco Wové said...

"What "gratuitous hatred" of "Europe"? I'm not sure any of us would know what it means to hate "Europe."

I assume he's referring to, e.g., Seeing Red's comments at 11:15 and 12:41.

Michael McNeil said...

Now the empire of the European Union isn't doing so well either. Maybe they should revive the Holy Roman Empire?

Though it lasted a long time, pretty much the first thing that happened with the Holy Roman Empire was its splitting up: France and Germany went their own way for the next 1,200 years.

Unknown said...

Social dream states and NATO
Nordic social dream states. They must know that when they become the United States of Europe the U.S. will withdraw and have a footprint and local fiscal presence of say Russia or Indonesia, subtracting billions of Dollars from their economies. Bye bye Welfare, Great pensions and free healthcare. To say nothing of selling all that land, flooding the market.

PhilD said...

"Blogger Paco Wové said...

"... I assume he's referring to, e.g., Seeing Red's comments at 11:15 and 12:41."

Indeed. Thanks Paco.