May 7, 2018

"I want to tell you a story about the time, still ongoing as of this writing, when I almost lost my mind," writes Ta-Nehisi Coates.

"In the summer of 2015, I published a book, and in so doing, became the unlikely recipient of a mere fraction of the kind of celebrity Kanye West enjoys. It was small literary fame.... My life had been inconsequential, if slightly amusing. I had never stood out for any particular reason, save my height, and even that was wasted on a lack of skills on the basketball court. But I learned to use this ordinariness to my advantage. I was a journalist. There was something soft and unthreatening about me that made people want to talk. And I had a capacity for disappearing into events and thus, in that way, reporting out a scene..... Fame fucked with all of that... It was the oddest thing. I felt myself to be the same as I had always been, but everything around me was warping. My sense of myself as part of a community of black writers disintegrated before me. Writers, whom I loved, who had been mentors, claimed tokenism and betrayal. Writers, whom I knew personally, whom I felt to be comrades in struggle, took to Facebook and Twitter to announce my latest heresy.... I remember going with a friend to visit an older black writer, an elder statesman. He sized me up and the first thing he said to me was, 'You must be getting all the pussy now.' What I felt, in all of this, was a profound sense of social isolation. I would walk into a room, knowing that some facsimile of me, some mix of interviews, book clubs, and private assessment, had preceded me. The loss of friends, of comrades, of community, was gut-wrenching. I grew skeptical and distant. I avoided group dinners. In conversation, I sized everyone up, convinced that they were trying to extract something from me. And this is where the paranoia began...."

From "I’m Not Black, I’m Kanye/Kanye West wants freedom—white freedom" (The Atlantic). The headline seems off, based on that excerpt, doesn't it? A lot of the article is about Michael Jackson, and how fame wrecked him, and of course, the visible wreckage had something to do with whiteness. But Coates is using his own experience with fame to understand Kanye West, and what do Coates and West have to do with a desire to be white? I assume Coates didn't write the headline, but I did search the article for "white" to find something that was about Kanye. Here:
West calls his struggle the right to be a “free thinker,” and he is, indeed, championing a kind of freedom—a white freedom, freedom without consequence, freedom without criticism, freedom to be proud and ignorant; freedom to profit off a people in one moment and abandon them in the next; a Stand Your Ground freedom, freedom without responsibility, without hard memory; a Monticello without slavery, a Confederate freedom, the freedom of John C. Calhoun, not the freedom of Harriet Tubman, which calls you to risk your own; not the freedom of Nat Turner, which calls you to give even more, but a conqueror’s freedom, freedom of the strong built on antipathy or indifference to the weak, the freedom of rape buttons, pussy grabbers, and fuck you anyway, bitch; freedom of oil and invisible wars, the freedom of suburbs drawn with red lines, the white freedom of Calabasas.
Ooh! Wow. That's all one sentence. I had to read it out loud to try to absorb the part where we can understand why West's idea of freedom is specifically white. It didn't work. Maybe because I'm white and that's making me think that complete freedom is every human being's birthright and that it would be racist to tell black people to adhere to a prescribed black form of freedom.

Other questions: Who was the black elder statesman who said "You must be getting all the pussy now" to Ta-Nehisi Coates and how did Ta-Nehisi Coates react at the time and why? And how tall is Ta-Nehisi Coates and does he really believe that tallness is wasted if not used for basketball? There are so many uses for tallness, or maybe I only think so because I'm white.

191 comments:

CJinPA said...

he is, indeed, championing a kind of freedom—a white freedom, freedom without consequence, freedom without criticism, freedom to be proud and ignorant;

This is the kind of freedom Coates enjoys. In fact, reaping praise and profit for racist writings gives him probably the most unique freedom on any American in 2018.

Marty said...

Ho. Hum.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

I want to tell you a story about the time, still ongoing as of this writing, when I almost lost my mind...

Almost?!?

buwaya said...

The obsession with "black" is still a wonderment.
He can write, and with his fame he can sell what he writes, but all he will write about is "black", and he ranks himself as a black writer, not simply a writer.

He is weirdly, absurdly parochial. He is the very opposite of my cross-cultural heroes, Naipaul, Nabokov, Kipling, Sienkiewicz and Conrad, who certainly could write about their place, their homeland and its society, but could also go anywhere, embed themselves in the utterly foreign, and write about that.

MikeR said...

"not the freedom of Harriet Tubman, which calls you to risk your own"
Hmm. Who took the greater risk, Kanye West or Ta-Nehisi Coates? Not even close.

JPS said...

Almost?!?

It's a process, not an event.

RNB said...

"...life's been good to me (so far)..."

rcocean said...

The whole TNC phenomena puzzles me. Compared to McWhorter or Glenn on BHTV, he's dumb a bag of rocks.

He blathers and writes endlessly and says nothing of interest. If he was Asian, he not only would not be labeled a "Genius" - he'd be an obscure journalist working for a city paper.

Why he was chosen by the Jeffrey Goldberg's in the MSM to be THE BLACK WRITER is beyond me.

buwaya said...

The fellow would benefit from running away to sea.
Or as in that wonderful story of the Togolese fellow who developed an obsession with Eskimos, and eventually managed to move to Greenland. My kind of guy.

Caldwell P. Titcomb IV said...

Da Nehi Kotex strikes again.

rhhardin said...

The black brand is "dangerous and stupid." If you want to get ahead, don't act black.

Adopt white markers, like dress, so you get the advantage of markers that say you're safe and smart.

It's not really acting white but showing that there's something about you that sets you apart from today's black leaders, who are dangerous and stupid.

West might eventually be able to change the black brand favorably, but it's harder than adopting a non-black brand for yourself.

Coates insists on dangerous and stupid or nothing.

Nonapod said...

Coates is enslaved by his own mind, his own idea of what reality is. He'll never be free in his reality no matter how much wealth and fame he may accumulate or how amazing and privileged his life may actually be.

retail lawyer said...

I am so sick of the race industrial complex. It is now 80% of NPR. It goes nowhere. Can't we just move on?

robother said...

When Tah Genius' 15 minutes are up, he should go on QVC selling his patented Word Salad Shooter.

Achilles said...

Coates wants blacks to be on the grievance plantation.

gspencer said...

Ta-Nehisi Coates, living large off affirmative action.

Achilles said...

buwaya said...
The obsession with "black" is still a wonderment.
He can write, and with his fame he can sell what he writes, but all he will write about is "black", and he ranks himself as a black writer, not simply a writer.



He needs to be a black writer.

Without race and grievance he doesn't have much to offer.

LordSomber said...

Live by the race card, lose your mind by the race card.

Chuck said...

Other questions: Who was the black elder statesman who said "You must be getting all the pussy now" to Ta-Nehisi Coates and how did Ta-Nehisi Coates react at the time and why?


That line strikes me as being of a piece with something that Scott Adams was whining about a couple of weeks ago. Adams was decrying what he saw as the hypocrisy among Democrats, who defended Bill Clinton's impeachment problem as being one of essentially private consensual sex. And so why should Donald Trump's private consensual sex be criminalized?

My answer was so easy! I never thought that Clinton should be impeached for private consensual sex. I did think that he should be impeached for perjury and adultery. And I don't think that Trump should be impeached for having adulterous sex with various adult film actresses and playmates. I think that Trump should be impeached for bank fraud, tax fraud and false FEC filings if those things at shown the way that Clinton impeachment was shown.

Scott Adams claims that he avoids hypocrisy by saying that he felt all along that neither impeachment was/would be warranted. I feel like I'm in an even better position, saying that neither president would get a pass on illegality, entirely apart from consensual adulterous sex. Adams is consistent, but condoning of illegality. I am consistent, and not condoning of illegality.

So then we circle back to comments about black leaders talk about "getting more pussy." It sounds like Trump talking, and Althouse no doubt wanted to make that point. And for my part, I've never been a fan of Kanye, or Coates, or Jesse Jackson, or Donald Trump. And they are all thugs in my view. I won't defend any one of them, and so I sure as hell don't have to defend all of them.

Oso Negro said...

Althouse - I hope you are not being serious in suggesting limits to the things you can understand because you are “white”. This ethnic lens presumes that portions of the human experience are specially connected to ethnicity. If this proposition is true , the implications are stupendous. No point in teaching English literature to Africans, for example. How can they understand it? The variants of this are endless. It doesn’t take a lot of imagination to understand the experience of being the “other”. If you violated you travel limits there are places you could go to have the experience. Do you think there are no slaves in your ancestry? Think again. Somehow they got over it.

Bay Area Guy said...

I kinda find Tennessee Coates vastly overrated. He's no Thomas Sowell.

Levi Starks said...

His first mistake was choosing to self segregate himself into “the community of black writers”

buwaya said...

There is a whole world, literally, of possibilities for a journalist with a guaranteed platform. He doesn't even have to be very good.

He could take a cue from, say, Michael Totten, whom the Atlantic would never hire, to write about something significant in some fascinatingly weird place.

Comanche Voter said...

Well I'm both tall at 6' 5" and living proof that white men can't jump---so never did well on the basketball court. But being a lazy sod, and willing to do a sport where you could sit down and go backwards, I found that I could pull a sweep in an eight oared crew shell. 6' 5" and 190 pounds with the ability to learn and repeat a single motion worked out alright there. Tah coulda done that--but would probably have rejected it as a "too white sport".

Ken B said...

Certainly not the freedom of Goodman and Schwerner.

Ralph L said...

I'm curious about the percentage of his book sales to black buyers. Bet it's under 13%. He gives the white lefties a little frisson of flagellation.

holdfast said...

Most overrated public “intellectual” of the millennium.

Coates’ business model requires that Blacks stay in their political and ideological decrepit concrete factory.

Lewis Wetzel said...

I picked up Coates' book_Between the world and me_ (from amazon, used so he did not get a penny). It's full of passages like the last one Althouse quoted. The world is all about him, and what he is all about is white people, not Black people. It's depressing. He is the slave who thinks his minor rebellion and sass are driving white massa crazy, when white massa never thinks of him at all and hasn't noticed his minor rebellion and his sass. I wonder if it's all an act, or if her really believes that white people live a life without consequences? Surely he must know that there as many whites in the prison population as there are blacks.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

YT: Gnarls Barkley - Crazy

Anonymous said...

Ooh! Wow. That's all one sentence. I had to read it out loud to try to absorb the part where we can understand why West's idea of freedom is specifically white.

To "absorb" you need to understand a more basic cognitive limitation of yours. Your devotion to clear, logical thinking and writing is also "white". So you need to stop parsing and analyzing writing like Coates's in that tight-ass white way.

Once you've overcome that, and take the dive into the great plasma pool of free-wheeling elemental feelz-association, eternally productive of the truthiest world salad, you can understand why West's "idea of freedom" is "white".

(If you're not willing to take the plunge, the tl;dr is "validate my feelz or you're a racist", also translatable as "STFU, whitey".))

Gahrie said...

Can we just make up our minds once and for all...does our race define us or not?

Marcus said...

He is, without a doubt, the most undeserving recipient of the MacArthur Genius Grant.

YoungHegelian said...

a white freedom, freedom without consequence, freedom without criticism, freedom to be proud and ignorant; freedom to profit off a people in one moment and abandon them in the next; a Stand Your Ground freedom, freedom without responsibility, without hard memory; a Monticello without slavery, a Confederate freedom, the freedom of John C. Calhoun, not the freedom of Harriet Tubman, which calls you to risk your own; not the freedom of Nat Turner, which calls you to give even more, but a conqueror’s freedom, freedom of the strong built on antipathy or indifference to the weak, the freedom of rape buttons, pussy grabbers, and fuck you anyway, bitch; freedom of oil and invisible wars, the freedom of suburbs drawn with red lines, the white freedom of Calabasas.

What must it be like for some like Coates to feel that he has no moral agency, no history? Does he really believe that blacks have not done horrible things to other blacks throughout history, that somehow Africa was a Garden of Eden until the honkies showed up?

It's an old nostrum of moral philosophy, going back to at least Plato, that if you can't do evil you can't do good. It seems like Coates ideas make him into a passive sufferer of white injustice, and his only moral outlet is writing about how oppressed he is. It reminds me of the Monty Python skit that opens with Graham Chapman solemnly intoning "World War Two. I was against it. I wrote a letter!".

Gahrie said...

Your devotion to clear, logical thinking and writing

Assumes facts not in evidence. She still thinks the 14th Amendment created a right to privacy that includes the right to an abortion.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Ann Althouse said... Maybe because I'm white and that's making me think that complete freedom is every human being's birthright and that it would be racist to tell black people to adhere to a prescribed black form of freedom.

Try: "..and that it would be racist say black bodies should be subject to a form of freedom different from the one white bodies enjoy and are subject to."

Other questions: Who was the black elder statesman who said "You must be getting all the pussy now" to Ta-Nehisi Coates and how did Ta-Nehisi Coates react at the time and why?

My first thought, too: Was he? That seems more like a professional pride/reaction to celebrity thing than a race thing, but maybe it's just my white brain in my white body that causes me to think that.

F'n Althouse!

madAsHell said...

'You must be getting all the pussy now.'

He's full-of-himself, and by that I mean that he can suck his own dick.

harrogate said...

You're so brutally dismissive in your cheerful positivism.

Some of your posts cross over so well, thematically, with the whole Prosperity Gospel scam, for example with Joel Osteen's speeches.

This is one of those posts.

Sad!

Qwerty Smith said...

So according to Coates, "white freedom" means sexually assaulting people? He is now quite literally just inverting stereotypes about black men that white supremacists promulgated a century ago.

CWJ said...

"Who was the black elder statesman..."

Does he even exist?

hombre said...

The puerile Mr. Coates taking a moment away from demands for reparation to reinforce the thrall of plantation life.

narayanan said...

It is mutual "Stockholm Syndrome" - enablers and whiners.

Rick said...

What I felt, in all of this, was a profound sense of social isolation. I would walk into a room, knowing that some facsimile of me, some mix of interviews, book clubs, and private assessment, had preceded me. The loss of friends, of comrades, of community, was gut-wrenching. I grew skeptical and distant. I avoided group dinners. In conversation, I sized everyone up, convinced that they were trying to extract something from me. And this is where the paranoia began...."

But Coates is using his own experience with fame to understand Kanye West, and what do Coates and West have to do with a desire to be white?

He's framing the "desire to be white" on the idea that blacks face unique consequences of fame. But if you then evaluate his list with this specific assertion in mind it's clear this is not true. A suddenly famous white person is also subject to concern about being used or treated differently. In fact how people handle the change is a prominent theme in itself. Maybe if Coates (among others) didn't presume everything is different between blacks and whites he wouldn't be so obviously mistakes quite so often.

buwaya said...

Complaining about the "getting pussy" comment is Coates humblebragging about his celebrity and the effect its had with his relationship to his peers. They are jealous, according to him, hence such comments.

Getting pussy has always been a perk of celebrity. Its also been a perk of the adventurous writers lifestyle. Hemingwayism, or Byronism.

Gahrie said...

In the time of Beyoncé, Serena and Venus, Tiger, LeBron, Kanye, Obama, Oprah, the dominance of rap and the success of Black Panther can we still make the argument that Black people are oppressed in the U.S.?

rhhardin said...

A mind is a terrible thing to lose.

Kevin said...

Chuck turns a conversation about two black men into an opportunity to opine about Trump in 3, 2, 1.

Anonymous said...

Is this what the Brits call "whinging"?

David-2 said...

The reason your attempt to understand this sentence didn't work is because it is bullshit from a bullshit artist.

Kevin said...

Shorter Coates: Black people still aren't free to be "wrong".

Shorter Kanye: Then black people aren't free.

400 years and the total increases day by day.

John Pickering said...

a Monticello without slavery, a Confederate freedom, the freedom of John C. Calhoun, not the freedom of Harriet Tubman, which calls you to risk your own; not the freedom of Nat Turner, which calls you to give even more, but a conqueror’s freedom, freedom of the strong built on antipathy or indifference to the weak.

Ann, even some white people can understand this concept of "a conqueror's freedom." Evidently you read it out loud and still claim you didn't get it. This is another example of purporting ingenuousness as a means of unleashing the vile impulses of the incorrigible. Ann certainly understands how John Calhoun's freedoms were different from Harriet Tubman's, but for the purposes of raising money on the portal chooses to play ignorant. There's at least one of her readers out there who know that there's a word in German for that.

Sam L. said...

One more reason to dislike Ta-Nehisi!

Sal said...

Black guy stumbling around in the 'last mile fog' hoping he never emerges.

Jupiter said...

"My life had been inconsequential, if slightly amusing."

Fame doesn't change everything.

traditionalguy said...

The slaves learned ways to survive as a group facing the brutal man catching murderers sent to get them by Catholic Kings lusting for world wealth. Ta-Nehisi wants to keep those tool sharpened up. They may need them again if the Jesuits manipulate the Pope's World Religion back on top.

West is an American who claims his right to live in a free world that is administered by Presbyterians, like Trump.

Ta-Nehisi has nothing to loose except the old slave survival ways.

Roy Lofquist said...

Hallelujah and Amen brothers and sisters. There are none quite so tedious as a pretentious hack indulging his muse.

Jupiter said...

John Pickering said...

'Ann, even some white people can understand this concept of "a conqueror's freedom."'

Would that be the freedom to swan around the office at the Atlantic, getting paid the big bucks to run your yap by the "people who think they are white"? I wonder if little Ta-Ta has told Jeff Goldberg that he's a "person who thinks he's white". Probably not, I'm guessing.

Kevin said...

200 years ago Coates would have written of Kanye:

West calls his struggle the right to be a “free mover,” and he is, indeed, championing a kind of freedom—a white freedom, freedom without consequence, freedom without criticism, freedom to be proud and standing somewhere he shouldn’t; freedom to associate with people in one moment and abandon them in the next; a Stand Your Ground Anywhere freedom, freedom without responsibility to stay on the plantation, without hard memory of where he should and should not go; a passport without chains, a freedom like Confederate soldiers enjoy, the freedom of someone who chooses their own path, not the freedom of one who makes sure you’re on the safest ground, which calls you to risk your own; not the movement of Nat Turner, North and North alone, which calls you to a certain place, but a conqueror’s freedom, freedom of the strong built on antipathy or indifference to those who do not wish such choices for themselves, the freedom of Manifest Destiny, Go West Young Man, and who the hell do you think you are; freedom of oil and coal and steam engines, the freedom of small homes and large plantations, the white freedom of land grants and the Oklahoma Territories.

Nah, Coates wouldn't have been able to write.

Godot said...

Oh Althouse. I treasure you every day.

Gahrie said...

Naipaul, Nabokov, Kipling, Sienkiewicz and Conrad, who certainly could write about their place, their homeland and its society, but could also go anywhere, embed themselves in the utterly foreign, and write about that.

What..no Richard Burton?

Kevin said...

In Coates' world, the workers of the world have united, but they'd better keep their damn chains tightly secured.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Step off the democrat corruption plantation, and they will nail you to a cross. You white bigot.

buwaya said...

Pickering, have you ever lived anywhere else?
Your argument is bizarre.
A neat-perfectly parochial paragraph.

Gojuplyr831@gmail.com said...

Kayne gets blasted for his comments about black's mental slavery. Coates then proves him correct.

Coates, the black genius writer, complains bitterly about the difference between white and black freedom while being supported by white liberals who define these freedoms for him.

Coates and Kayne both restate arguments by Marcus Garvey. Ironically, the rapper does it much better than the genius.

YoungHegelian said...

@JP,

Ann certainly understands how John Calhoun's freedoms were different from Harriet Tubman's,

Well, maybe she does; maybe not. But, since you're so set on showing us the errors of our ways, please explain how it's so clear that Coates participates in Tubman's freedom/bondage & not Calhoun's freedom? Because he has a black skin? Is that all it takes to be an inheritor of Tubman's moral courage -- black skin? All the moral failure we see in the modern black community -- is that a fall from Tubman's moral courage or is it just another expression of it?

This is a major problem I've always had with the leftist doctrine of "histories of oppression". Where does that leave the oppressed? Outside of history? Where can humans act morally except in time, i.e. "making" history? Why do the oppressed get to define "histories of oppression"? In this case, sure, blacks got treated like shit in the US, but why, if, whites bear the history of slavery, don't blacks bear the history of what African blacks did to make fortunes off the slave trade? Is it because, over here, they're on the losing side? Is that what it takes to achieve moral redemption -- be a loser?

buwaya said...

Ok, throw in Burton.
There were and still are a lot of these fellows.

Caldwell P. Titcomb IV said...

All I know is where was God, whom held fast and we have said, He white, desiccating brokered hide with the cheering Jackson song and stones turned to be whiteness of rape and Michael Jackson's internments, and absolutely mattered tea, and how easier to come for me, smiling about our black writer.

Fame fuck is a grown man, walking jokes, making Latinos, the first Carib was God in hip-hop's golden age, cranked up, pop-locked, seen insight, and changed to learn that Twitter in our lives, as music for the immoral, an O.J. Simpson for that era, I do not Obama who was death was dying.

My sense of a travel ban, to slow time, how a chaotic world stood out, how I faded into a restaurant in his face to discuss some mystery, a Confederate for his kids stormed under into peace with time, I felt the singular tale and all of this tale and the desperate dying; the movements, and dance, freedom of Heather odd paraphrase Walcott, the futile attempt to me, as Emerson says here, you must begun to the real, and The First Carib was instructive, when the same car radio came newsworthy.

He rolled by his vast eyes, his face forgetting.

narciso said...

Or Charles doughty, among the tribes of the kingdom.

Luke Lea said...

Ta-Niihili Coates has no idea what he is writing about. What the attraction is I don't understand.

wwww said...



I think people may be over-analyzing what's going on with Kayne. He has a history of vulnerability to mental illness. He was hospitalized for mental instability in 2016.

buwaya said...

The lesson of history is to be a conqueror, not the conquered.
Obsessing about ones oppression and begging from scraps from the master class by making them feel sorry for you is not helpful in making your own people into conquerors. Cortez did not win by begging. A conquest by beggars is no conquest.

Ann Althouse said...

"Althouse - I hope you are not being serious in suggesting limits to the things you can understand because you are “white”. "

I'm being serious and humorous.

I think there are limits in understanding anything because I, like everyone else in a position to try to understand anything, am human.

Sigivald said...

Do people actually consider Coates an "intellectual", still?

narciso said...

He thinks he is the next dubois, that is immense delusion.

Anonymous said...

John Pickering: Ann, even some white people can understand this concept of "a conqueror's freedom." Evidently you read it out loud and still claim you didn't get it.

I'm pretty sure most white people (most probably Althouse included), understand the concepts Coates was throwing around. Obviously some white people (I'm assuming you're identifying yourself as white here) have difficulty understanding that that isn't what Althouse is saying she "doesn't get". Apparently having to follow a fairly simple chain of argument defeats you.

But pretentious verbiage is highly correlated with shitty thinking ability. Guess you and Coates have that in common, though at least his writing has a certain verve and energy, unlike the your leaden sour-puss style.

narciso said...

Coates thinks it's still 1964, he considers that a profound insight, I call it category error.

rhhardin said...

"If freedom has wings," taught Reb Idrash, "it also has eyes, a forehead, genitals. Each time it takes wing, it transfigures a bit of both the world and man in the excitement of its flowering." And Reb Lima: "In the beginning, freedom was ten times engraved on the tables of the Law. But we so little deserved it that the Prophet broke them in his anger." "Any coercion is a ferment of freedom," Reb Idrash taught further. "How can you hope to be free if you are not bound with all our blood to your God and to man?" And Reb Lima: "Freedom awakens gradually as we become conscious of our ties, like the sleeper of his senses. Then, finally, our actions have a name." A teaching which Reb Zale translated into this image: "You think it is the bird which is free. Wrong: it is the flower." And Reb Elat into this motto: "Love your ties to their last splendor, and you will be free."

Jabes, Book of Questions

Anonymous said...

Luke Lea: Ta-Niihili Coates has no idea what he is writing about. What the attraction is I don't understand.

White assholes like to patronize the hell out of black people. (Or maybe they don't exactly *like* it, but just can't help themselves).

I don't understand it, either, but I've been seeing it my entire life.

narciso said...

Sorry Baldwin, he thinks Dubois is too ivory tower.

Kevin said...

There are so many uses for tallness, or maybe I only think so because I'm white.

Perhaps Coates has people to get the cookies down from the top shelf.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

The hatred that spews from the entitled racist left over any soul who wanders off the ideological plantation is shocking. To compare Kanye to confederates and slave owners? What is wrong with the left? The fear they display is something to behold. The lash- out at anyone who chooses a life outside of the ideological prison that is the modern left is astounding.

narciso said...

How about dough boy tom arnold, he was part of the hinting party.

John Pickering said...

For what it's worth, Coates is saying that black people experience American life differently from white people because of the residue of of hundreds of years of chattel slavery executed in the belief that the negro was made by god to be inferior and subject to the white man, and extended into our own era by Jim Crow and the failures of the civil rights movement. It's not that Coates himself hasn't benefited from celebrity; he's also trying to remember where he's coming from.
Our young hegelian catches a glimmer when he wonders whether the oppressed exist outside history -- that's in fact exactly the case. That's Coates' point about a Monticello without slavery -- it's history written by conquerors. Hegelian's suggestion that the west African blacks who sold their countrymen into slavery are morally equivalent to the traders who financed the slave trade misses the antithesis part of the dialectic, as revealed by his synthesis that it's just about winners and losers. Those readers who are referencing VS Naipaul in this regard might consider reading or rereading The Mimic Men.
Some of Ann's readers evidently really don't understand that black and brown people get treated worse than white people do in the US. But what about Ann? When she saw those guys arrested for being black in a Philadelphia Starbucks, was it possible to draw any conclusions regarding differences in social treatment based on race?

buwaya said...

"Coates thinks it's still 1964, he considers that a profound insight, I call it category error."

It would be wrong even in 1964.

rcocean said...

"Ann certainly understands how John Calhoun's freedoms were different from Harriet Tubman's, but for the purposes of raising money on the portal chooses to play ignorant."

This is gibberish. Slavery ended 150 years ago.

But to some, its just like yesterday. Like bleeding medical patients or the horse and buggy.

rcocean said...

That's the problem with TNC. He's a one trick pony. All he can ever do is say:

"Racism". And "What about black people"?

For 10,000 words.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Blogger Ann Althouse said...
"Althouse - I hope you are not being serious in suggesting limits to the things you can understand because you are “white”. "

I'm being serious and humorous.

I think there are limits in understanding anything because I, like everyone else in a position to try to understand anything, am human.


Yes and it's an unfalsifiable assertion. There's no way to PROVE that your allegedly sincere belief in X isn't in some way due to your identity as Y. "You think that way because you're white" isn't an argument that can be countered, or really even addressed, with reason.

Note: you can tell a lot about the power dynamic (between "sides") in a given argument by noticing who is and is not allowed to use assertions in this form. If I said "you only think that 'cause you're a woman" then I'll be instantly labeled a deplorable sexist and probably banned from most forums (definitely kicked out of the academic conference). If I said "you only think that 'cause you're a white cisgender man" then I'll face no negative consequences. But yeah, oppression, buddy, it's a clear cut black and white issue. Totally.

Identity politics is anti-reason. That's by design--an embrace of reason and logic is a marker of white colonial/imperial supremacist thinking anyway.

narciso said...

Probably so, the tribal chieftains didn't lose anything in the transaction their descendants he came kings and dictators. The bokassas amins and mengistus of the world.

chickelit said...

Col. Pickering comes around to tell us that not one - NOT ONE! - commenter here can match wits and intelligence with any single anointed NYT scribe.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

Glad my book isn't going to make me famous. Sounds like it sucks.

The whole point of writing is to allow other people to understand something they haven't experienced themselves. If that's impossible then there is no reason to read.

I stopped reading Ta-Nahesi Coates after Trayvon. Coates wrote that he didn't care if Trayvon swung first. The facts of the case didn't matter. What mattered was that Trayvon was black. Facts don't matter, intent doesn't matter, only what group someone belongs to matters. You don't side with the truth when it gets in the way of your group loyalty. Well, if I'm not part of your group, why on Earth should I keep reading what you write? If group loyalty is what matters, what the hell is your problem with Trump and white people voting for him? Aren't they doing what you say? Are they not being authentic?

The nastiest, and most true, put-down of TNC I've ever heard is: he has no topic other than his own blackness. The runner up is that TNC has adapted the white-supremacist worldview.

If "white" freedom is individual freedom, then I'm all for it. Being trapped in group loyalty is the prison people used to brave minefields and guard dogs to escape.

Antiantifa said...

This is so damned tricky. How do we have a conversation about race in America if whites are not permitted to speak and African-Americans are not permitted to think outside prescribed bounds? Personally, I will leave it to Coates and West to hash out between them. I feel for both because they clearly have very strong feelings. There is pain on both sides of this back and forth.

Did you hear Kanye tell the story of his daughter North's teacher telling her she is black and her mother is white? The pain of father seeing his child first encounter racial labels was real. (Her teacher was helping wrap her in the mental chains of slavery, he said.) Coates does not see mental chains, he sees a fight against oppression and it must be wrenching to see a powerful cultural influencer like Kanye walking away from the fight.

I will listen to what both have to say. It is a debate, not just between these two but between everyone bold enough to step into the breach of racial politics in America, that will mark America for lifetimes. But I am not ready to wade into expressing an opinion even as far as you did, Althouse.

narciso said...

It's amusing really, slavery was a terrible scar and Jim crow was even worse because it came after the blood price of half a million, and it took 75 years to undue.

buwaya said...

I have been a Naipaul fan since I was a teenager.
Everything he writes about resonates with me, because I am also of that sort of displaced remnant-of-empires-expat milieu.

You may misunderstand however the universality of Mimic Men.

Read the rest of Naipaul for the rest of the story.
Empires end up creating new culturally merged peoples. And the leading edge of the merger is not the ethnic politician and ethnic agitprop, but the adoption of the values and culture of the conquerors.

Coates POV is cowardly and sterile.

Jupiter said...

John Pickering said...
"Some of Ann's readers evidently really don't understand that black and brown people get treated worse than white people do in the US."

Perhaps. I suspect that most of the white readers of Althouse's blog understand the matter quite well, and have sense enough to stay away from the places where the black and brown people mistreat each other. Where do you hang out, Pickering?

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

Gonna put in a plug for Michael Moore. He thinks that poor white people and poor black people are on the same side. Race is played up by the ruling class to divide the poor against each other instead of working together to overthrow the unjust capitalist superstructure. Old-school Marxists regard any social division other than class as an illusion.

I'm not a Marxist, but I do miss the old days sometimes.

narciso said...

About Pickering presumptions in such a mentAl prism, what are the options.

chickelit said...

Teh Coates of many coloreds is a mantle Donned by lyin’ Kings and elder black statesmen. It’s another rags to riches mythology.

Roughcoat said...

Properly, that would be Cortés, not Cortez.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

John Pickering said...That's Coates' point about a Monticello without slavery -- it's history written by conquerors.

Have you been to Monticello lately? I went a few months ago. Easily half of the exhibits and many many discussion points on the tour I went on were about slavery. I know it's just an example but it's not a good one. The reality of slavery is in no way hidden at Monticello in 2018.

For what it's worth, Coates is saying that black people experience American life differently from white people because of the residue of of hundreds of years of chattel slavery executed in the belief that the negro was made by god to be inferior and subject to the white man, and extended into our own era by Jim Crow and the failures of the civil rights movement.

I read Coate's reparations piece. His strongest points were that discriminatory practices of very recent vintage (he focused on redlining) have caused and continue to cause harm to current black Americans and that harm should be compensated. His weakest point was his inability to apply a limiting factor to that historical truth and/or to specify what remedy would solve it. Slavery & horrible discrimination existed. They will always have existed. Nothing done now will ever change the fact that they existed. That's not an excuse to do nothing now, of course, but people like Coates often assert that what we see today should be understood to be the product of the past while arguing that this or that thing should be done today--they don't then argue that doing that thing today would change things in a way that would balance the harm of the cumulative past. That is--if we agree to $X Trillion of reparation payments today (paid to who, how, etc--lots of problems) then the day after those payments are made are we all square? No; we'll never be square and Coates will never allow for any balance on the other side of the scale to mean anything. It's not unreasonable to react to that by saying "well why bother engaging, you've preemptively said that nothing I do--up to and including complete capitulation to all of your demands--will ever get me into heaven, so what's the point?" That conclusion, of course is evidence of racism.


Some of Ann's readers evidently really don't understand that black and brown people get treated worse than white people do in the US

Almost--try "Some of Ann's readers evidently really don't understand that black and brown bodies are treated worse..."

Gahrie said...

Some of Ann's readers evidently really don't understand that black and brown people get treated worse than white people do in the US.

Then why the fuck do they keep risking their life to come here?

Roughcoat said...

Coates may be right, may be wrong -- I think he's wrong -- but in any case I don't care. I'm not interested in the race conversation. I've said goodbye to all that.

robother said...

What if Kanye's right? What if the continuing legacy of slavery is the enslavement of black minds with the narrative of eternal oppression? When you are conditioned to see yourself as a loser, someone who doesn't stand a chance of success on your own efforts, wouldn't that explain a lot about the current state of most American-born blacks (even compared to, say black immigrants from Caribbean or Nigeria who quickly join the middle class)?

Doesn't that make black "leaders" like Coates and Jackson and Waters the current field bosses, whose entire prosperity and status depend on the system of slavery continuing?i

buwaya said...

The only alternative is to overthrow the conquerors, through revolution and war.
This has been done, time after time, and will happen again.

In the case of black Americans, this has not only been demographically impossible, but this has gotten worse since many other ethnic groups were added to the American mix.

In effect black Americans are competing with the entire world now. A world that cares not one bit about them.

There no longer is any prospect of progress (trivial though it has been) via guilt trip.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

The racists are terrified of interracial marriage because two generations of it wipe out all apparent differences.

After intermarriage, you can't pretend that how someone looks matters anymore. What matters is what culture they CHOOSE to adapt. A biracial person chooses where to go. That makes people mad.

Immigration makes people angry because immigrants can CHOOSE to change cultures. Either they make people angry when they change, or they make other people angry when they don't.

Any mention of CHOICE drives lefties crazy, unless it's abortion.

I'm curious whether having an interracial marriage is what pushed Kanye over the edge and got him to see what a crock race is. No matter what, his kids will have interracial marriages themselves. What kind of society are they going to live in? Where race is set in stone at birth, or where no one cares anymore?

buwaya said...

Re Cortes/Cortez - I use American conventions in English, when I remember to.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

Use English when speaking English. Make no apologies.

Roughcoat said...

Hugh Thomas uses Cortes, I take my cue from him.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

There's a Cortez, Colorado, county seat of Montezuma County.

buwaya said...

I suspect Mr. West understands his market better than his detractors.
Most who buy his music and his endorsed products aren't black, and they are becoming less sympathetic to those who are hostile to them. The romance of rebellion works differently once you are actually a rebel, and the young white men and boys who are his base audience have been radicalized.

But TBD.

Roughcoat said...

"There's a Cortez, Colorado, county seat of Montezuma County."

Yes, named after Sylvestre "Pookie" Cortez, Hernand's half-wit younger brother who was disinherited for consistently and egregiously misspelling the family name.

George Grady said...

Mr Coates is right, in a way. In today's America, it is, more or less, a white freedom to be able to think and believe for yourself. Of course, the reason it's not also a black freedom is because of the vast efforts Mr Coates and his fellow travelers to deny that freedom. Kanye is correct about this: the only thing that's keeping his fellow blacks from this freedom is themselves.

buwaya said...

Then there is "Pocho" Cortez.

roesch/voltaire said...

Cornel West called Coates a Neo-liberal who in his words:“The disagreement between Coates and me is clear: any analysis or vision of our world that omits the centrality of Wall Street power, US military policies, and the complex dynamics of class, gender, and sexuality in black America is too narrow and dangerously misleading. So it is with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ worldview.”It would seem the issue of race and class in terms of freedom in the past and today seems to still be in play for some.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

roesch/voltaire said...Cornel West called Coates a Neo-liberal who in his words:“The disagreement between Coates and me is clear: any analysis or vision of our world that omits the centrality of Wall Street power, US military policies, and the complex dynamics of class, gender, and sexuality in black America is too narrow and dangerously misleading.

West says to Coates: if you don't view things through the same lens as me--and give other factors exactly the same weight as me--you're not worth talking to.
Coates says to us: if you don't view things (a given race issue) through the same lens as me--and give the factors I cite the same weight as me--you're not worth talking to and are functionally unreachable.

Doesn't seem like an altogether productive way to conduct the business of intellectual study/debate/education/growth...but maybe productivity in that sense isn't the goal.

But I bet West doesn't call Coates a racist for not agreeing with West. I know Coates concludes that disagreement with him is proof of racism. West's doing better than us on that front, anyway.

readering said...

From group photos Coates looks tall enough to have played pro shooting guard. He must have gotten comments a lot for that growing up. Whereas the pussy comment would have been a new experience for a guy dismissed from three journalism jobs before the Atlantic. Cute contrast.

MikeR said...

I wish Coates the best of luck getting back to the obscurity where he longs to be.

Ralph L said...

He thinks he is the next dubois

Yeah, Blanche DuBois.
Oh, shit!

When can we start denouncing black racism?

Kevin said...

When you are conditioned to see yourself as a loser, someone who doesn't stand a chance of success on your own efforts,

It's much easier for the Democrats to promote this than to address the underlying issues.

Addressing the underlying issues requires progress, while preaching institutional racism only requires periodic reaffirmation.

Jupiter said...

Roughcoat said...
"Coates may be right, may be wrong -- I think he's wrong -- but in any case I don't care."

I am trying to imagine what set of circumstances would be required for Ta-Ta to be "right".

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

I still want to know why we are all, as if under direction, pronouncing his name "Ta-Nehasi." That has to be the most egregious deliberate mispronunciation of a name since Ralph Vaughan Williams went by "Rafe."

cassandra lite said...

Those lines about how he's ordinary and unobtrusiveness seem almost cribbed from one of Joan Didion's confessional essays collected in Slouching Towards Bethlehem.

Ralph L said...

Didn't he show up here to complain about Althouse misspelling it?

Rafe is a common British pronunciation, so I'm told. Ralph Fiennes.

I got a valentine in kindergarten made out to Raff.

Sebastian said...

"a white freedom, freedom without consequence, freedom without criticism, freedom to be proud and ignorant; freedom to profit off a people in one moment and abandon them in the next"

Remember: freedom has a race, and blacks can't be racist.

"Who was the black elder statesman who said "You must be getting all the pussy now" to Ta-Nehisi Coates and how did Ta-Nehisi Coates react at the time and why"

My guess: TNC laughed. But admitting he did would make him seem like a sexist jerk satisfied with his fame. Better to work the PC vein and get the adulation of guilty white liberals.

Bilwick said...

Every time I hear the English pronunciation of "Ralph" in Ralph Vaughn-Williams name, I think of something like, "Hey, Rafe! Ain't you done with that Sea Symphony yet? Cousin Uncle Clem is hankerin' To conduct it!"

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Chuck,

What are you talking about wrt Bill Clinton? It wasn't all Lewinsky, you know. No one claims that his, um, interaction with Juanita Broaddrick was "consensual." And all of this talk about, "Well, times have changed" is obvious bosh. People are now routinely being shitcanned for wrongdoing in the 1970s. Why shouldn't Clinton be, too?

Or is, say, dropping trou and saying "Kiss it" just something a Democratic Arkansas gov has the unquestioned right to do?

Bilwick said...

My impression of Coates and West is that whatever their disagreements, they are both loyal servants of the "liberal" Plantation. Not like that uppity troublemaker Thomas Sowell.

Yancey Ward said...

It is hilarious to watch the contortions some people will go through to put on the victim mantle. Coates is hardly unique in this regard.

Jupiter said...

Yo, Pickering! Don't go 'way mad, Bro. Come back here and tell me how down you are with your homeys. You Blood or Crip, Pick?

Amadeus 48 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave Schuler said...

Mssrs. West and Coates enjoy the same freedom and it's neither black nor white. It's green.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

When she saw those guys arrested for being black in a Philadelphia Starbucks...

Nobody saw those guys arrested for being black in a Philadelphia Starbucks, because they were not arrested for being black in a Philadelphia Starbucks. They were arrested for trespassing, which they continued to do even after the police showed up and made it quite clear that they would be arrested if they did not leave.

The most that an honest person could say is that the fact that they were not customers was noticed only because they were black. Of course, you would be saying that without any evidence, but at least it's something that is not obviously false on its face.

walter said...


Blogger Comanche Voter said...
being a lazy sod, and willing to do a sport where you could sit down and go backwards, I found that I could pull a sweep in an eight oared crew shell. 6' 5" and 190 pounds with the ability to learn and repeat a single motion worked out alright there. Tah coulda done that--but would probably have rejected it as a "too white sport".
--
Damn funny up until the last line.
He would probably have an aversion to boats and "slave"-ish labor.

Rigelsen said...

Geez, what a piece of work is Coates! An extremely silly, whiny piece of work who at once thinks blacks should stay in their own lane just after lamenting how he lost relationships for not staying the lane meant for him.

And this hater of "white freedom" is the guy Marvel came up with to write the new Captain America.

Quaestor said...

freedom to be proud and ignorant...

That one made me spew hot tea over my keyboard.

Coates is haranguing Kayne for "actin' white", not unlike the proudly ignorant thug element in an urban high school who harangue and harass the gifted black kids for making the honor roll.

Rigelsen said...

It's also funny that Coates would associate "white freedom" with "freedom without responsibility", when Coates' own shtick is all about how blacks have no responsibility for their station in life, and how it's all the result of the oppression of some overarching white hive mind.

The thing is, any freedom first requires that you assume responsibility for yourself, and this most basic responsibility is what Coates rejects.

Earnest Prole said...

No person has done greater damage to black-white relations in America than Coates, because he made straight-up racist separatism fashionable again.

Omaha1 said...

TNC never uses one word when ten will suffice. Grandiosity, Ta-Nehisi is your name.

Chuck said...

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...
Chuck,

What are you talking about wrt Bill Clinton? It wasn't all Lewinsky, you know. No one claims that his, um, interaction with Juanita Broaddrick was "consensual." And all of this talk about, "Well, times have changed" is obvious bosh. People are now routinely being shitcanned for wrongdoing in the 1970s. Why shouldn't Clinton be, too?

Or is, say, dropping trou and saying "Kiss it" just something a Democratic Arkansas gov has the unquestioned right to do?


Do you understand that I am not defending Clinton? I am not defending Clinton! I think Clinton is a lying scumbag.

Clinton wasn't impeached for having consensual sex with Monica Lewinski. He was impeached for perjuring himself and obstructing justice. Trying to get Monica to lie along with his own lies. For trying to use Bettie Currie, to foil the investigation.

Clinton also wasn't impeached for allegedly raping Juanita Broaddrick. I wish that Ms. Broaddrick had made a report to police at the time. Might've saved all of us a lot of trouble.

I really don't know if he raped Juanita Broaddrick. I can't be sure if Trump has committed sexual assault either. But there are claimants as to both of them. Ivana Trump's rape claim was made under oath.

So, no; I am not defending Bill Clinton. I am saying that Donald Trump appears to me to be the same sort of hateful, scumbag liar that Bill Clinton is.

rcocean said...

"I am saying that Donald Trump appears to me to be the same sort of hateful, scumbag liar that Bill Clinton is."

Except Trump hasn't raped anyone. He didn't sexually harass his employees. He didn't lie under oath while POTUS. He's not getting Lewinsky's in the oval office.

You can believe anything. But you have no proof that Trump is a "hateful, scumbag, liar" except in your own crazy never-trumper hysterical mind.

Quaestor said...

walter wrote: He would probably have an aversion to boats and "slave"-ish labor.

Aha! I see. African's were brought to the New World (mostly to Carribean sugar islands and Brazil, btw) therefore the authentic black loathes boats and watercraft. Hmmm. One wonders why there isn't a similar loathing of firearms, seeing as how those African transported into slavery were first made captive by fellow Africans and that the most valuable trade goods at the West African slave ports were firearms, a single musket being worth as much as a ship's hold full of slaves. Of course, Coates and others would prefer to blame the whole sad history on whites, particularly American whites, most of whom have ancestors who never owned slaves and even fought for their emancipation. Historical fact: Chattel slavery in Africa is a long story and predates European colonization of the New World by many centuries. When Vasco da Gama made his way East by rounding Africa he was offered slaves by the native chiefs on virtually every beach he touched. He took none on his outward voyage, as his goal was the spice islands somewhere east by north. Having garnered little in the way of the most valuable spices, he did trade for slaves on his return. Historical fact: The West African leader known to us a Cinque, the heroic character made famous by Speilberg's Amistad, after finally regaining his freedom returned to Africa and took up slave trading.

Drago said...

#StrongDemDefender Chuck: "Do you understand that I am not defending Clinton?"

LOL

Quaestor said...

I am saying that Donald Trump appears to me to be the same sort of hateful, scumbag liar that Bill Clinton is.

"Hateful, scumbag liar" is succinctly descriptive of you, Chuck, at least in my opinion. Tell me what makes my opinion of you more hateful than your opinion of Trump?

Clyde said...

My take from Coates' tale: It doesn't matter what color you are, whether you are red, yellow, brown, black or white, if you become successful, everyone else around you will become green with envy. People are just like crabs in a pot, and if one gets too high up, the others want to pull him back down.

Drago said...

LLR Chuck: "I wish that Ms. Broaddrick had made a report to police at the time. Might've saved all of us a lot of trouble."

(wink wink)

Quaestor said...

Drago wrote: (wink wink)

Broaderick's silence laid waste to all that anti-Bush 41 vitriol Chuck was concocting for '93-'97, which he has lately revived for Trump.

Anonymous said...

John Pickering: For what it's worth, Coates is saying that black people experience American life differently from white people because of the residue of of hundreds of years of chattel slavery executed in the belief that the negro was made by god to be inferior and subject to the white man, and extended into our own era by...[blah blah blah].

Yeah, we know that, John. The fact that you think people aren't "getting it" tells us something about the limitations of your own thinking, not other people's.

The problem isn't that white people don't "get" that black people and white people experience life differently. That they do is an utterly banal observation. The problem isn't that white people who dare to disagree with Coates (or you) don't know or don't acknowledge chattel slavery or theories of racial inferiority or any other fact of history. *Nobody doesn't know these things. Nobody is refusing to acknowledge these things*. Everything you say is a starting point, not a conclusion, not the QED for anybody's opinion about [drum roll] Race in America.

The problem is that people like you appear to think that *just stating these things* is some kind of conclusion, some kind of argument for particular policies, or proof of the validity of particular viewpoints. You're stuck in first, grinding your gears. So you can't even understand a very clear and simple criticism of Coates's sloppy writing and sloppy thinking - that there is no logical connection between his grandiloquent meandering references to history and his *assertion* that West is somehow promoting an idea of freedom that is "white". Because that's all it is, an assertion, an opinion.

Get it, John? Coates proferred an opinion. He made a lot of noise proffering it, with lots of rhetorical flourishes, but never made an actual argument supporting his opinion about West's opinions. That people notice that is not an indication that they didn't hear the assertion the first time, or lack rudimentary knowledge of history.

Jim at said...

When she saw those guys arrested for being black in a Philadelphia Starbucks...

Yep. That's what they were arrested for, all right. For being black.
Nothing else.

If Pickering had a son .....

readering said...

Be best.

YoungHegelian said...

@Quastor,

The West African leader known to us a Cinque, the heroic character made famous by Speilberg's Amistad, after finally regaining his freedom returned to Africa and took up slave trading.

And, to this day, the ruling class of Liberia are the descendants of freed slaves that the Abolitionists paid to send back to Africa. So, what did those freed American slaves do when first thing they were back on Mother Africa's soil? Why, oppress the locals, showing that they were quick-learners & that melanin was no impediment when it came to the game of How to Be a Honky Oppressor in Ten Easy Steps.

Amadeus 48 said...

Watching Glenn Loury and John McWhorter on Bloggingheads TV is like landing back in a sane world after a trip to Bedlam via Ta-Nahesi Coates.

langford peel said...

I love Ta-Nahesi Coates.

He is a living breathing 24/7 advertisement for white supremacy.

The only better ones are Jemele Hill, Maxine Waters and of course Colin Capernick.

Thanks guys.

langford peel said...

Earnest Prole said...

No person has done greater damage to black-white relations in America than Coates, because he made straight-up racist separatism fashionable again.


Earnie that is a feature not a bug. He is the new Marcus Garvey. We need too do everything we can do to help him. Exasperating and dropping this cruel nonsense of diversity will be a tremendous boon to safety and security of these United States.

The man is an underappreciated genius.

I bet if we left alone in a room long enough with a typewriter he could type the works of Shakespeare. He talks about it in the comic he writes for Marvel: "The Avengers Infinite Monkey Quest."

Scott said...

It must be depressing to be Jeffrey Goldberg and wake up one morning to find that your franchise writer is Ta-Nehisi Coates. What the fuck happened? Will I awake from this nightmare?

walter said...

readering said...Be best.
--
Lame diversion..though "forever first lady" Moochelle may not approve Melania's excercise of unelected authority.
That's HERS, bitches.

walter said...

Seems worthy of reposting here
The Atlantic Had A Meeting About Kevin Williamson. It Was A Liberal Self-Reckoning.

MikeM said...

If it weren't for loose associations he would have no associations at all.

Lewis Wetzel said...


Blogger John Pickering said...

For what it's worth, Coates is saying that black people experience American life differently from white people because of the residue of of hundreds of years of chattel slavery executed in the belief that the negro was made by god to be inferior and subject to the white man, and extended into our own era by Jim Crow and the failures of the civil rights movement.

Every single Black person, without exception, that is what Coates is saying. Coates is saying that race is all that matters. Every individual is best understood as a particular instance of their race. Black person, White person, etc.
That's racism, straight up.

buwaya said...

A bit I pulled from Edmund Candler's "Siri Ram - Revolutionist"
Candler was a now-forgotten contemporary of Kiplings, and notably, besides being a very adventurous journalist (he was on Younghusbands epic expedition to Lhasa), had a long career as an educator in India.

His description of a common sort of half-educated third-world nationalist activist is interesting. I ran across quite a few fellows (Maoists, as that was fashionable in my day) who would answer quite well to this description. A half-digested foreign culture leads to interesting results -

"His struggle with Keats' "Ode to a Nightingale " was Siri Ram's last adventure in the fields of English literature. When he awoke the morning after the lecture he picked up his text-book from force of habit and found himself reading a poem about a little girl and a sparrow's nest.

" She looked at it as if she feared it, Still wishing, dreading to be near it."
(Wordsworth, "The sparrow's nest" - buwaya's note)

He threw the book aside. The piece was so simple he did not give it another thought. If any one had asked him the meaning of the lines, he would have said that the European sparrow is a ferocious bird, and that Emmeline was afraid to provoke it by going too near its nest. And he might have added, if there were any consequence in his broodings, some general reflections about European truculence in men and sparrows. There was plenty of material for it in the heap of pamphlets by his
side which the Swami had given him. Siri Ram squatted at the end of his bed with his blanket pulled about his ears poring over them. There was no crime which the English had not inflicted upon his Motherland, no indignity which his people had not suffered at their hands."

ccscientist said...

The fundamental problem with Coates (besides being pretentious), is that he believes races are real things, and that by membership in one you inherit any evil committed by that race in the past. Thus white people inherit the stain of slavery (which he talks about incessantly) but of course they do not inherit the virtue of ending slavery, of sending British warships to end the slave trade, or anything else good. And, it goes without saying, that blacks do not inherit the stain of all the murders members of their race committed (somehow this gets overlooked).
The premise that people are trapped forever by their history is nonsense. Yeah sure, there can be residue. You can have people in the south still sore about the civil war, or people in the Middle East sore about wars 1000 years ago, but it does not dominate their lives and determine their fate. To say that blacks currently are outside of history and experience everything differently from whites is way exaggerated and make blacks trapped and incapable of progress. I deny this because I have known black dentists and executives and engineers and plumbers, and been to their homes and had them in mine and this screed denies that this is possible.

Lewis Wetzel said...

Coates is worse than that,Unknown. Coates believe that the Black race is real, but not the white race. Coates believes that white people are an inauthentic group of non-Blacks assembled deliberately to oppress Black people. You cannot be an authentic human being and call yourself a white person.
It's poisonous racism, I am sure Coates was inspired by Mein Kampf.

ccscientist said...

Lewis: thanks for clarifying. I can't get through enough of his writing to get the full picture, because I get dizzy with all the pirouetting he does trying to impress. It is the worst kind of jibberish.

Gahrie said...

What disturbs me most about Coates is his position on facts he finds disagreeable.

As an example, he finds The Bell Curve and what it says to be evil and racist, and not fit for discussion simply because he finds it's conclusions to be objectionable. But the only reason he objects is because they detail unpleasant demographic realities. In simple terms, Black people have lower IQs than everyone else. Now this simple fact is not debatable. Everywhere around the world, using multiple tests and accounting for language/culture, Black people have lower IQs than others. This doesn't mean that individual Black people are stupid or that Blacks are inferior to others. But Coates can't acknowledge this, so The Bell Curve has to be dismissed as racist, and anyone citing it condemned. But he knows he can't win the scientific argument, so he has to maintain the position that even having the argument is White racism and oppression.

Lewis Wetzel said...

In Beloved, Toni Morrison says that only community a Black person can belong to is the community of Blacks. Special contempt was reserved for Blacks who tried to gain favor with the White community by acting against Black interests. It was a true betrayal, it wasn't switching sides; a Black person can never join the White community.

Gahrie said...

By the way, for some reasons the White racists who wrote The Bell Curve and conducted the research it is based on, decided to say that Asians and Jews had higher IQs than White people.

I've never been able to figure that out.

Gahrie said...

Special contempt was reserved for Blacks who tried to gain favor with the White community by acting against Black interests.

You're not even allowed to debate what the best interests of Black people are, or whether or not Black people even share common interests.

(For instance try suggesting to Coates or someone like him that it would be in the best interests of the Black community if 15% - 25% of Black people to vote Republican)

readering said...

Really, be best.

Lewis Wetzel said...

From Between the World and Me:
"But race is the child of racism, not the father. And the process of naming 'the people' has never been a matter of genealogy and physiognomy so much as one of hierarchy. Difference in hue and hair is old. but the belief in the preeminence of hue and hair, the notions that these factors can correctly organize a society and that they signify deeper attributes, which are indelible -- this is the new idea at the heart of these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, deceitfully, to believe that are white."

Coates believes that to be white is to be a white supremacist.

Gahrie said...

Difference in hue and hair is old. but the belief in the preeminence of hue and hair, the notions that these factors can correctly organize a society and that they signify deeper attributes, which are indelible -- this is the new idea at the heart of these new people who have been brought up hopelessly, tragically, deceitfully, to believe that are white."

Then explain to me why non-White people around the world spend billions of dollars a year on skin whitening and hair straightening (not mention bleaches and dyes) products?

Explain to me why lighter-skinned Blacks, Hispanics and Asians have higher status all over the world.

I know I know...it's Whitey's fault.

(Ironically enough, White people spend billions to darken their skin and curl their hair)

John Pickering said...

Maybe because I'm white and that's making me think that complete freedom is every human being's birthright

is Ann's view, and worth parsing. Ann here says that maybe she's seeing that her own whiteness and privilege has blinded her into a delusion: that everyone's birthright is to be free. That is Coates point, and Ann is now perhaps for the first time looking around the world's millions today living under state or economic oppressions of long standing, and back through history, including the slaves in America, and glimpsing that her freedom down through her ancestors has been more free than other people.
So that's a good thing. Lots of white men in the North have ancestors that fought the civil war shot through with this very issue.

Gahrie said...

Ann here says that maybe she's seeing that her own whiteness and privilege has blinded her into a delusion: that everyone's birthright is to be free. That is Coates point,

If true, Coates is still wrong. It is everyone's birthright to be free, even if the vast majority of people who have ever lived, including White people, haven't been free.

Jupiter said...

Blogger Scott said...
"It must be depressing to be Jeffrey Goldberg and wake up one morning to find that your franchise writer is Ta-Nehisi Coates."

Yeah, it's pretty funny to read the transcript of that meeting, with all those smart white people having to sit around pretending Coates is a smart person too and they're lucky to have him as a colleague. It's so hard not to laugh at the fool. But one slip and you're toast.

Gahrie said...

Instead of bitching and whining all the time about how bad things are, Coates should be expressing his thanks that he was born in the late twentieth century in the United States where he enjoys more rights and freedoms, and a higher standard of living, than 99% of all the humans who have ever lived.

buwaya said...

" her own whiteness and privilege has blinded her into a delusion: that everyone's birthright is to be free."

There are entire peoples, civilizations, that don't have the western idea of individual liberty. That they belong above all to a community, clan, family.

They have a different "birthright". But note, that is not the American black birthright either.

You talk of all this with ignorance.

Coates also is blind.

Because people with a different birthright, foreign to all of you on a very deep level, oppressed peasants indeed, with an ancient history of this, can and do succeed in your country.

Black people are not competing with whites, northern or otherwise. They are now competing with those foreign peasants from all corners of the world. Black people need to understand them. And, perhaps, copy them.

buwaya said...

An awful lot of people live in a parochial fantasy.

Lewis Wetzel said...


Blogger John Pickering said...

Maybe because I'm white and that's making me think that complete freedom is every human being's birthright

is Ann's view, and worth parsing. Ann here says that maybe she's seeing that her own whiteness and privilege has blinded her into a delusion: that everyone's birthright is to be free. That is Coates point, and Ann is now perhaps for the first time looking around the world's millions today living under state or economic oppressions of long standing, and back through history, including the slaves in America, and glimpsing that her freedom down through her ancestors has been more free than other people.


John Pickering seems to believe that Althouse's race obligates her to think in a certain way. It's really amazing the amount of racism you run into on the Left.

rcocean said...
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rcocean said...

"It must be depressing to be Jeffrey Goldberg and wake up one morning to find that your franchise writer is Ta-Nehisi Coates. What the fuck happened? Will I awake from this nightmare?"

TNC was CREATED by people like Jeffrey Goldberg. Yes, poor little Jeff, just has to put up with TNC. No, he sorry. He could fire TNC tomorrow & and hire a better Black writer.

Besides, Goldberg comes off as a slimeball in the transcript. He call Andrew Sullivan an antisemite or racist about six times in the interview. He an untrustworthy SJW.

Michael K said...


Blogger Gahrie said...
Instead of bitching and whining all the time about how bad things are, Coates should be expressing his thanks that he was born in the late twentieth century in the United States where he enjoys more rights and freedoms, and a higher standard of living, than 99% of all the humans who have ever lived.


It's interesting that so many foreign born blacks see this and cannot understand why American blacks are so blind.

It's just a shame. It's as if Affirmative Action has convinced American blacks that they really are incompetent and require a thumb on the scale to get anywhere.

I see them all the time.

buwaya said...

"He call Andrew Sullivan an antisemite or racist about six times in the interview."

True. It takes a lot to make me sympathize with Andrew Sullivan, and Goldberg was making headway there.

rcocean said...

WHy should Black people stop "Bitching and whining"?

What's the incentive? The incentive is all in the other direction - to keep complaining.

Playing the victim gets you money and power in the present day USA. That's why you have people battling over who is the biggest victim.

buwaya said...

"Playing the victim gets you money and power in the present day USA. "

It stops working when everyone turns into a victim.
Then you simply have tribal warfare.

This is a nasty state of affairs. Countries learn to live with this, but it is a bitter truce at best.

rcocean said...

Andrew Sullivan isn't all bad. Just 85% bad. Thankfully, he's quit ranting about Sarah Palin.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...

West wants to confront and stop the progress of diversity, including color judgments (e.g. racism).

Ralph L said...

Thankfully, he's quit ranting about Sarah Palin.

I forget, but wasn't that the beginning of his demise as a respected, widely-read commentator? Funny how Palin and then Trump did that to previously apparently sane people.

Kirk Parker said...

Buwaya,

I certainly hope you weren't intending to imply that Totten isn't very good.

Saint Croix said...

Kanye West wants freedom—white freedom

This is a very specific and very racist attack on Kanye West. Call it what it is. Similar to Snoop Dogg whiting him down.

Flat out racism. No other word for it.

DEEBEE said...

Did not work for this brownie either.
Thinking it hiss nothing to do with color, but the need to express everything only along that axis.
As to “all the pu...” who would want to indulge this dyspepsia

Anonymous said...

John Pickering: ...is Ann's view, and worth parsing. Ann here says that maybe she's seeing that her own whiteness and privilege has blinded her into a delusion: that everyone's birthright is to be free. That is Coates point...

John, you need to get out of first gear. You're not going to get anywhere interesting, otherwise.

Q22 said...

Apparently, to Coates, the only authentic Black experience is one of resistance, struggling and suffering. Probably one of the most depressing sentences I have ever read.

Caligula said...

Coates' message appears to be that Kenye does not (or should not) truly own himself or his music or his words. Apparently because he owes some absolute and inflexible fealty to some amorphous and poorly defined racial collective.

Coates' message is not merely "depressing," it is disgusting. Although Coates is undeniably talented, his message has become so repugnant that it causes one to question whether it's worth reading what he as to say.

The answer so far seems to be "yes," but that's not because of the content of his work but just because so many absorb what he writes that his expressed opinions come to have cultural significance.

Jim Baird said...

Coates has released a video response to Kanye:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kga2soqvMF0