January 12, 2018

"A wretched place... (a) a dirty or dilapidated dwelling; (b) a remote, downtrodden, or unpleasant city, town, etc."

That's the Oxford English Dictionary definition of "shithole," with examples going back to 1930:
1930 A. M. Frey Cross Bearers xxxiv. 249 But that will soon be over, he hopes; over as soon as he can get out of this ‘shit-hole’—the soldiers' term which the officers adopt.
1935 B. Creighton tr. ‘B. Traven’ Treasure of Sierra Madre (new ed.) xiii. iv. 193 Come out there from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you.
c1947 T. Shibutani Derelicts of Company K (1978) v. 200 How come..we have to live in this shit hole?...
1973 W. Crawford Gunship Commander 11 I have already spent four miserable, rotten years of my life in that shit-hole and I am not going back.
"Shithole" to refer to a place seems to have originated in the military. I see it's in the novel "High Fidelity" (1995) by Nick Hornby: "And I moved when I was eighteen, so I only spent a year seeing the place for what it was—a suburban shit-hole—and hating it." That makes it sound like pretty normal guy talk, so why are we acting all puritanical about it now?

It was said by the President of the United States, but at a private meeting, where I presume he, like many Presidents before him, says "fuck" and other bad words all the time. We know Nixon did. LBJ did.

So what is the big deal? The big deal is that it's racist. Supposedly. That's in the mind of the hearer, as the hearer really hears it or chooses to speak of it, and the motivations there are not untainted. Anything about Trump that can be called racist, will be called racist, but Trump said (we're told) "shithole countries," and "shithole," in this context means a wretched place. Is Haiti not a wretched place? There are connotations of dirtiness, obviously, but more notably, that the place is just awful, not that the people are bad in some way because of their race. There's enough reason to think of Haiti as dilapidated and downtrodden without needing to start assuming that there's something about the people because of their race. Perhaps the racism is in the mind of the person who hears "shithole" about the country and starts thinking about the race of the people who live there.

Anyway, "shithole" also means "anus," and that meaning is very old, going back to the 1600s: "Six shitten shotes did I shoote in thy mowth that I shot from my shithole." Yikes. Someone published that in 1629. "Shithole" also means "latrine." The oldest published usage is in the military context: c1947 T. Shibutani "Derelicts of Company K": "I hear Mike and Joey fell in a shit hole last night!"

"Shithole" can also refer to a person. It's just exactly the same thing as saying "asshole," which isn't a racist epithet. The OED examples go back to 1974: "Hey, shithole,..get the hell out of here." From the cool novel by Katherine Dunn, "Geek Love" (1989): " We protect children because they have not yet proven themselves to be hamstrung shitholes."

And there's this from "BAD/Or, the Dumbing of America," the 1992 book by the great Paul Fussell: "They have a name for their members obliged to cover BAD places: shithole specialists."

"Shithole" is a perfectly good rude, slangy word. It has a great history, and it's vivid and effective. It is not a racial term, and shame on the people who are making it racist. I wonder if these people ever think of the pain and damage they are causing by proclaiming and insisting upon a connection between dark skin and excrement. They're revealing what's in their head, and they don't mind burdening dark-skinned people with the knowledge that they are being thought about like that.

I'm giving this post my "civility bullshit" tag. You know what that means? It means that calls for civility are always bullshit.

312 comments:

1 – 200 of 312   Newer›   Newest»
PB said...

A Chicago politician getting the vapors over "vulgar" language? Ok. Someone hold my beer while I demonstrate some vulgar language to and about Dick.

Kristian Holvoet said...

next part of this dance:

"So, we all agree these aren't crappy places. Why are people from these countries getting preferences?"

Left Bank of the Charles said...

Shithole can also refer to a person - our Shithole President has finally given himself a nickname that will stick.

Comanche Voter said...

Having been in some places in Africa and South America that are certainly "dark and dirty and disgusting" places, vulgar but accurate is a fair description of what Trump allegedly said.

I think my first real exposure to third world poverty occurred when I saw a woman and her four children eating beans and rice out of a shoebox on a sidewalk in Rio de Janeiro . I was on a business trip in the mid 70's. I had grown up middle class in a whitebread community in California. The sight was a shock to me. I've been in worse places since.

Gahrie said...

Is Haiti not a wretched place? There are connotations of dirtiness, obviously, but more notably, that the place is just awful, not that the people are bad in some way because of their race.

Haiti shares an island with the Dominican Republic. The people in both countries are identical. The Dominican Republic is thriving, Haiti is a shithole.

Chuck said...

Meade, this seems like an awful lot of gratuitous profanity. Is it all okay with you?

tcrosse said...

BTW Norfolk, VA is widely known as Shit City among sailors and marines.

Curious George said...

"I wonder if these people ever think of the pain and damage they are causing by proclaiming and insisting upon a connection between dark skin and excrement."

I don't think that's why they say it's racist. It's simply because a derogatory term was used about someone of color. Same as EVERY fucking criticism of Obama was racist.

It's all the left has.

Chuck said...

This whole post is the sophisticated, literate, Althousian version of, "So, he said 'shithole.' So what? It's what we all think, or say casually. What's the big deal? MAGA!"

That's okay.

So why deny it? Why the elaborate hoax of attacking the press or the sources?

It's the dishonesty, stupid.

Bay Area Guy said...

You ever been to Port Au Prince, Haiti? The sanitation sucks. It is literally a shithole.

But the colloquial use of the term "shithole" detracts and distracts from an important policy discussion, i.e., what's a sensible immigration policy for America?

Generally, the Left (and half the GOP) want an "open" border policy.

The sane few on the right don't want this. I'd like a strict policy against illegal immigration and a selective policy for legal immigration.

Tank said...

Who the f didn't know what shit hole meant in this context?
Must we play pretend with these f.....g assholes every day?
Why yes, because they are persistent assholes.

dreams said...

The liberal Dems are more transparent than they realize, they not fooling anyone other than lapdog liberals.

Meade said...

Chuck, now you are trolling yourself. Get control.

Drago said...

LLR Chuck: "Meade, this seems like an awful lot of gratuitous profanity. Is it all okay with you?"

It's not a psycho spewing gratuitous profanity, so it's all good.

eric said...

It's obviously not racist. But almost everything the left and Dems claim is racism these days isn't. Heck, just being a Republican anymore is racist.

Oh well. Hopefully it sinks any deal on DACA. I'll have to send a thank you card to Durbin if it does.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

This needs a new tag, civility bullshithole.

hawkeyedjb said...

President Trump solidifies his position with both his admirers and his detractors.

pdug said...

The idea is Trump ignores all the beautiful things about these countries because they are black and thinks of them as lesser as a result.

Because trump is racist and prejudiced against blacks, his negative descriptions of countries are tainted with racism.

"black people make shitty parents" is racist even if "shitty parenting" isn't a racist concept.

William said...

Compare Trump's talk of pussy grabbing to the actual deeds of guys like Harvey and Polanski. There were paroxysms of revulsion directed at Trump by people who competed to be in the projects of Harvey and Polanski.......Haiti is an undesirable place to live. Are Trump's comments more reprehensible than the actions of Papa Doc, Baby Doc, and all those other Kleptocrats who inhabit the Presidential mansion with monotonous regularity.

Angel-Dyne said...

This post got me to wondering about the origin of the phrase "crazier than a shithouse rat".

Probably another one of those innocent-looking phrases that under the hood is really hate-filled, vile, and racist.

Lewis Wetzel said...

A "shithole," is also a place no one would or should want to be. I think that this is the most common meaning. No one goes into a latrine or an outhouse unless they have to, no one stays there any longer than necessary.

Drago said...

Left Bank of the Charles: "This needs a new tag, civility bullshithole."

Well played.

Francisco D said...

My ancestors from Norway came here in the 1850's because (for farmers) the country had turned into a shithole.

I feel bad for people who live in shitholes. If we avoid the term, we will never begin to address the problem.

Drago said...

Here is a link to movie whose venue was definitely, most certainly, not a s***-hole and should never be characterized as such lest you bring down the wrath of the "principled" dems/lefties and their "principled" LLR allies:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0265086/

Your welcome.

Carter Wood said...

From Grimm's Fairy Tales, where "piss pot" was a purely acceptable descriptive term.

Of the Fisherman, Flounder and the Fisherman's Wife

There once was a fisherman and wife, who lived together in a piss-pot sized shack, right on a lake, and the fisherman went out every day and fished and fished and fished.

The fisherman saves the life of an importuning magical flounder in exchange for the fish granting him wishes. His wife makes increasingly outrageous demands upon the man and the fish. The conclusion:

"So, what does she want now?" asked the flounder. "Ach," says the man, "now she wants to be the dear God himself."

"Go home now," the fish responds. "You both will be sitting back in your piss pot."

And there they sit until this very day.

Lewis Wetzel said...

The people who believe that your race limits what you can do are Democrats, these days. In fact it was that way in the old days, too.

Inga said...

He wasn’t just insulting the country, he was denigrating the PEOPLE from those countries who are seeking protections to allow them to stay here. What is being lost here is the context in which he was used the term. He doesn’t want people who need to get away from ” shithole” countries the most. He’d rather have Norwegians who live in a wonderful country that don’t need haven from a shithole.

“The backdrop: The stunning comments were reportedly made during an Oval Office meeting on immigration, where Trump argued against restoring protections for people who arrived in the U.S. from those countries. The White House later put out a response to the Post report clarifying Trump's position, without denying that he made that comment.”

Drago said...

Inga: "He wasn’t just insulting the country, he was denigrating the PEOPLE from those countries who are seeking protections to allow them to stay here."

Yes, that is the next fall back lie from the lefties like you.

John Pickering said...

Poor Ann, burrowing down with her dictionary into the shithole, very sorry to see that.

I guess Ann now agrees with Durbin that Trump made the remarks, only that it's fine that Trump should do so, because actually it shows what a humorous and shrewd fellow he is. Just wanted to get the group all loosened up and groovy. Fun!

Mark Jones said...

I'm not convinced Trump said "shithole". Not based on unnamed sources who heard about a meeting where it was supposedly said. I don't trust the media. They've made it clear they'll lie at every opportunity to harm Trump, his administration, and Republicans in general. I won't even necessarily believe it even if a Democrat or a "good" (i.e., leftist, GOPe) Republican who was in the meeting confirms it. I don't trust them either.

That said, if he did say it, I. Don't. Care. Was it a vulgar statement? Sure. Is that a shock to anyone? No. Is it true? Yes. Is it racist? Not even the leftists having the vapors over this really believe that. It's just a handy club to use against him. Screw them.

Gahrie said...

He wasn’t just insulting the country, he was denigrating the PEOPLE from those countries who are seeking protections to allow them to stay here

What made those countries shitholes in the first place? The people who live there.

He doesn’t want people who need to get away from ” shithole” countries the most

I don't either. Why would anyone? Why do you?

The people I want the most are successful people from successful cultures who will help make America great.

Drago said...

John Pickering: "Poor Ann, burrowing down with her dictionary into the shithole, very sorry to see that."

Word definitions are literally white supremacy and a tool of the patriarchy.

I see the talking points have gone out yet no one on the left/LLR side has apologized to Haiti for spooling them up over a lie.

Unexpectedly.

gspencer said...

It is so great to hear a leader speak the truth. Okay, he does in indelicately, inartfully, but still, the truth is the truth.

But lets indulge the left on this point for a moment. "So we're all agreed. None of these countries is a s__t-hole. There're all paragons of high culture, learning and style. Therefore, there's no need for any of those living there ever to leave them. So no more immigrants from those countries. Agreed? Good."



Ignorance is Bliss said...


1935 B. Creighton tr. ‘B. Traven’ Treasure of Sierra Madre (new ed.) xiii. iv. 193 Come out there from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you.

Also source of the classic Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges.

Rocketeer said...

He wasn’t just insulting the country, he was denigrating the PEOPLE from those countries who are seeking protections to allow them to stay here.

So - are the countries shitholes, or not?

traditionalguy said...

White trash is the term used for white people trapped in holes. The key is hopelessness that discourages picking up trash. Why bother?

That despair usually happens because Globalist communist tyrants steal all the money and use it to buy Swiss Gold deposits.

wbfjrr2 said...

Just today’s hypocritical hyperventilating by the usual idiots.

Chuck said...

Meade said...
Chuck, now you are trolling yourself. Get control.

So do you, like, have any rules on posting comments?

Asking for a friend.

Gahrie said...

It's the dishonesty, stupid.

Because before Trump, no politician was ever dishonest. Or said rude things.

Drago said...

LLR Chuck: "So do you, like, have any rules on posting comments?"

Good point Chuck.

Meade, I'd like to suggest a rule that all civilized people should be able to agree on: No rumor mongering about underage children of politicians.

Respectfully submitted, as always.

n.n said...

Trouble and misfortune. Anthropogenic and Nature-caused.

DavidD said...

Political correctness?

We don’t need no steenkin’ political correctness.

Gahrie said...

@Chuckles:

Seriously buddy ...seek help. You're starting to sound like that weird passive-aggressive ex-girlfriend that can't move on with their life.

If you don't like how Althouse runs her blog....stop whining and haul ass.

Drago said...

Meade, further, I would respectfully submit that any cad so despicable as to rumor monger about underage children of politicians should be banned for a term no less than 3 months from Althouseblog.

Yours in Respect, As Always,
Drago

tcrosse said...

The Province of Qu├ębec has had some difficulty lately accomodating incomers from Haiti who exploit a loophole in Canadian law which would otherwise exclude them. Even though they already speak French.

Nonapod said...

That's in the mind of the hearer, as the hearer really hears it or chooses to speak of it, and the motivations there are not untainted

People are always going to imagine what is actually in other people's heads, it almost can't be helped. When Trump says something, or even when he's just alleged to have said something, the people who hate him are naturally going to interpret it in the absolute worst possible way.

In reality of course nobody can really know what is actually going on in someone else's head with any kind of certainty, you can only judge a person by what they actually say and (more importantly) what they actually do. But in this team sport we call politics, there's just a natural tendency to imagine the worst possible things going on in the heads of the enemy team's members. I do it all the time myself.

With Trump, you'll never convince anybody who despises him to not imagine the worst possible interpretation. You can only disagree with them. And they'll get upset that you disagree with them, and you'll get upset that they disagree with you, and you end up going round and round insulting each other. It's tedious.

Drago said...

Inga seems to believe that its a revelation that many people are forced to live in s***-holes, which invariably are muslim or leftist.

Inga is surprised to learn that those nations have totally dysfunctional institutions which manifests itself in extreme poverty, lack of education, continuous war-like violence, etc.

Inga seems to believe that there should be no restrictions on any of these people coming here and advocates for increasing numbers of immigrants.

Well, where should we put the next billion under-educated unskilled immigrants?

I suggest her house. That way she can actually live what she claims are her values instead of doing what lefties always do: Virtue signal and then demand YOU pick up the tab.

AllenS said...

Too many comments in one thread from Inga, Chuck, Ritmo... can turn the comments of that thread into a shithole.

Inga said...

"Why do we want all these people from 'shithole countries' coming here?"

PEOPLE. People from the entire continent of Africa. People from Haiti. People from El Salvador.

You Trumpists live in the shitholes that are in your hearts and minds.

exiledonmainstreet said...

I have never heard "shithole" applied to a person probably because most people prefer the tried and true insult: "asshole."

Insults which include the word "shit" that I have heard:

Plain old "He's a shit." Or "She's a piece of shit."

"shitheel" "Shitbird" "shit stain" "shithead"

Jason said...

From NPR:



"Haiti's capital city doesn't have a sewer system. Instead, so-called nightsoil, or human excrement, is largely removed by hand by workers who toil at night under cover of darkness."

TRANSCRIPT

Port-au-Prince, Haiti, is one of the largest cities in the world without a central sewage system. Most of the more than 3 million residents use outhouses and rely on workers with some of the worst jobs in the world, hauling away human excrement by hand one bucket at a time. The men are called bayakou, and they work in the dark by candlelight. Rebecca Hersher spent a night with a group of them.

REBECCA HERSHER, BYLINE: As soon as we arrive, you can smell it. It's a heavy, earthy stench, like rotten eggs and grosser things.

Bonsoir.

An estimated 1 in 5 Haitians don't have access to any kind of latrine. Those who do have outhouses generally hire a bayakou to clean them out. Tonight, a team of four bayakou are emptying one outhouse. One of the guys, Gabriel Toto, is sitting on the edge of the hole, his bare feet in the brown soup below, holding a big stick.

GABRIEL TOTO: Oh.

HERSHER: The stick measures about 15 feet deep. Tonight, with a foreign reporter around, Gabriel is wearing knee-length pants and gloves. Usually, he works naked.

TOTO: (Through interpreter) They don't usually give us these gloves and things, when you're not here.

HERSHER: He grabs a bucket, lights a cigarette and steps into the hole. It's 9:30 p.m.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: So he's going to start now.

(CROSSTALK)

HERSHER: The men joke as they work. Every so often, they dump out a bucket and find something weird or dangerous - sticks, rocks, trash, razor blades. At one point, the photographer with me freaks out.

UNIDENTIFIED PHOTOGRAPHER: Oh, oh. Oh, my God.

HERSHER: There's a gun in the latrine (laughter).

They look the gun over, determine it doesn't work and move on. It takes about three hours for Gabriel to empty the hole. By the end, he's sweating and covered in human waste. His gloves are ripped.

Read the rest at the link. https://www.npr.org/2017/07/30/540359412/haiti-s-bayakou-hauling-away-human-excrement-by-hand

n.n said...

Libya became a real shithole. Anthropogenic, with a twist of oil, and immigration reform.

Syria became a progressive shithole.

Kiev... Ukraine, too. Anthropogenic, with a side of bigotry.

And Germany etc. are not far behind. Catastrophic Anthropogenic Immigration Reform.

Haiti is a shithole. An amalgam of anthropogenic and Nature-caused.

South Africa is a shithole. An anthropogenic abortion field that decimated the native population(s) in a bid for redistributive change (e.g. natural resources).

Diversity is an emotionally appealing euphemism that obfuscates the dark concepts of racism, sexism, etc, or judging/discriminating people by the "color of their skin".

Political congruent ("=") is as good as the selected modulus.

Abortion is the termination of a process (e.g. human life, virginal human life), which has both anthropogenic and Natural causes.

Jason said...

Given the reporting from NPR, just what the hell does Haiti have to do before it qualifies for "shithole" status?

hstad said...

Inga's quality thinking hits a wall- again! ".......He’d rather have Norwegians who live in a wonderful country that don’t need haven from a shithole......?" Yet, the USA still has immigrants from "....wonderful.....Norway...." applying to get into the USA. In fact, over 400 where granted immigration status last year. There are over 4.5 million Americans of Norwegian descent in the USA - while Norway's population equals over 5.2 million. No comment here, just interesting picture when you just read facts without the political lies from political liars.

Inga said...

“Why do we want all these PEOPLE from 'shithole countries' coming here?"

He’d rather have Norwegian people.

Drago said...

Inga: "You Trumpists live in the shitholes that are in your hearts and minds."

Conservatives are demonstrably more giving in terms of charity. Not just in terms of dollars (which they are, massively), but also in their time and participation.

Obviously.

This is what is known as an inconvenient truth.

But that's okay. The lefties are good at wearing p****-hats, burning down Starbucks locations, ripping out ATM's and being islamist supremacist apologists.

So you've got that going for you, which is nice.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Inga, of what benefit is it to most Americans to let in unlimited numbers (or even limited numbers) of poor, unskilled, illiterate people?

I know why it benefits those people. I know why it benefits people who employ them and can pay them shithole wages.

How does it benefit you? How does it benefit me?

Drago said...

Inga: "He’d rather have Norwegian people"

Why wouldn't we want people from the most successful economic nations in the world?

Bay Area Guy said...

Oakland, California has an immigration problem, too. Yuppies from San Francisco are flocking across the Bay Bridge to find suitable housing. This jacks up the prices. This forces some poorer folks to leave. For example, in 1980, 48% of Oakland was black; now it's only 27%.

Now, certain parts are very nice. Piedmont, Montclair viliage, Trestle Glen, Skyline Blvd, Lake Merritt. And, of course, we love the Golden State Warriors, the Grand Lake Theater, the Raiders, etc, etc.

However, I think it's factually accurate to say that certain parts of Oakland, are, indeed, a giant shithole.

Back to immigration policy on a national level: Let's secure the borders, build a wall, and enforce the existing laws

DavidD said...

Derelicts of Company K, Gunship Commander, and BAD all seem to be out of print.

Sad!

Inga said...

Yet, the USA still has immigrants from "....wonderful.....Norway...." applying to get into the USA. In fact, over 400 where granted immigration status last year. There are over 4.5 million Americans of Norwegian descent in the USA - while Norway's population equals over 5.2 million.

Oh, so now Norway is a shithole too? Oh those poor poor Norwegians, they need a haven from their shithole country as badly as Africans, Haitians and South Americans? There is something askew in your shithole minds.

n.n said...

I'm not convinced Trump said "shithole".

But there is a preponderance of first-hand and regurgitated hearsay sources, and the press is blowing their bullhorn as they learned to do. So, there must be credible ignorance. NYT, right?

buwaya said...

I lived in Oakland, decades ago, when it was very cheap.
Twice robbed at gunpoint.

Ann Althouse said...

"He wasn’t just insulting the country, he was denigrating the PEOPLE from those countries who are seeking protections to allow them to stay here."

How is it denigrating the PEOPLE to notice that they are like all of us: They don't like living in a shithole country?

It would be more denigrating to say that they're happy with the country even though it's a shithole. (Compare Barbara Bush, "And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this, this is working very well for them.")

buwaya said...

Norway WAS a shithole.
So was Sweden.
Imagine Northern European countries having famines.
It happened.

Gahrie said...

PEOPLE. People from the entire continent of Africa. People from Haiti. People from El Salvador.

What's your point? Why am I or the United States responsible in any way for these PEOPLE? What gives them the right to move here?

I care more about AMERICAN PEOPLE who need help and want better lives.

You Trumpists live in the shitholes that are in your hearts and minds

Conservatives and Rightwingers donate much more money and time to charity and helping people than Democrats and Leftwingers. Every study shows this. The Left prefers to spend other people's money and pay governmental workers to do the work instead.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"Conservatives are demonstrably more giving in terms of charity. Not just in terms of dollars (which they are, massively), but also in their time and participation."

Yes, that has been shown many times. We are also far more charitable as a people than those European socialists Inga so admires.

Leftists expect the State to provide for people because they can pat themselves on the back for being "caring" while being relieved of the responsibility of helping on a personal basis. Most actually don't want to spend any time with those poor and sick people.

Inga said...

“How is it denigrating the PEOPLE to notice that they are like all of us: They don't like living in a shithole country?”

Why did he voice his preference for Norwegian immigrants? What is the difference between a Norwegian and people from the aforementioned shithole countries? It’s an obvious one.

Drago said...

Inga: "There is something askew in your shithole minds."

Every modern nation except the US has a merit-based system for immigration.

Since you don't know that because you are apparently astonishingly ill-informed and thus a perfect voice-actuated sheep for your lefty betters, here's a link from 2016:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-29594642

"Immigration points-based systems compared"

Good luck with your comprehension of what actually exists.

Gee, now that I thing about that article and the points based systems of these other western nations, I guess that means they have, in Inga's words, "s***-hole minds".

Ouch.

I thought the lefties liked Europe, Australia, Canada, etc.

LOL

Ann Althouse said...

One interpretation of what Trump said was:

We want people who have the most to contribute to our society, so people who are coming here from countries with good education and good economic conditions are probably going to give more than people who are living somewhere where it's so terrible that it seems like a good opportunity just to get out of where they are.

I think one answer to that argument is that people who come here to work at the highest levels of employment will be taking jobs from Americans who worked hard to get an education and train in a highly skilled profession, and the people who will take the lowest jobs are actually what we need more of.

Gahrie said...

What is the difference between a Norwegian and people from the aforementioned shithole countries? It’s an obvious one.

So Inga apparently believes that only minorities come from shithole countries, and that all minorities come from shithole countries?

Isn't that racist?

Yancey Ward said...

Think about how this argument plays out, though- the strongest argument for the new amnesty for the Salvadorans, Haitians, and others is this- and the pro-amnesty side has made this argument repeatedly- that to not let them stay in the US condemns them to their home countries that are, for all intents and purposes, shitholes but by other names.

Assuming for the sake of argument that Trump used exactly that language, it would be just another example of him using political correctness against its practitioners. And I am not ready to concede he actually used that phrase yet.

Lydia said...

"Shithole" is just the sound-bite. The real problem with what he said is that he doesn't want folks from those places in this country.

A little more context:

The reaction to the report reflects familiarity with Trump’s history. This is the same man who said that a judge of Mexican descent could not do his job fairly because of his ancestry; the same man who went out of his way to avoid condemning David Duke for as long as possible; the same man whose businesses have been repeatedly accused, long before he got involved in politics, of discriminating on the basis of race. We have ample reason to doubt that the president judges people based on the content of their character. Ample reason, as well, to judge his remarks based on what we know about the content of his.

Gahrie said...

I think one answer to that argument is that people who come here to work at the highest levels of employment will be taking jobs from Americans who worked hard to get an education and train in a highly skilled profession, and the people who will take the lowest jobs are actually what we need more of.

You're overlooking the fact that there are fewer low skilled jobs today and an increasing number of high skilled jobs. There are plenty of Americans to do the unskilled labor, most importantly teenagers and people just entering the workforce.

Drago said...

Inga: "Why did he voice his preference for Norwegian immigrants?"

LOL

You are truly hopelessly ignorant!

Trump was drawing a comparison between the worst nations in the world and the, arguably, most successful. Obviously.

Here you go, read and learn (assuming that is possible): http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-185956/So-Norway-rich.html

"So why is Norway rich?"

snip: "Norway is prosperous, happy and free. Its countryside is neat and well husbanded, its towns and cities orderly and comfortable. Its people shame much of Europe by their command of foreign languages, and it runs its own affairs, trading cheerfully with the EU.

Its fisheries and farms have not been wrecked or bankrupted, as ours have, by 'Common' policies that suit France, Germany or Spain. Its supreme court is in Oslo, not Luxembourg, where ours is.

Its monarchy is not menaced by a European president and its flag doesn't have to fly alongside the EU's yellow stars.

In the 30 years from 1971 to 2001, its gross domestic product rose by 177 per cent. Denmark, which has been in the EU for much of that period, increased its GDP by 75 per cent and the UK, which has been in the EU almost the whole period, saw an increase of 98 per cent."

Gee, I can't imagine why Trump might use Norway as an example of a successful nation from which we might draw more immigrants that would be an immediate net positive for our nation and our citizens as compared to uneducated, unskilled, socialist 3rd world mentalities. Really, it's a mystery.

Jupiter said...

Inga said...

"He’d rather have Norwegian people."

So would I. I have asked you multiple times to explain why you think it is a good idea to import Muslim criminals and settle them in our towns and cities. You don't seem to have an answer.

buwaya said...

I recommend a success-metric to prioritize immigration from countries with a proven track record.

The soundest one I can think of is median household income.
If so, Asian Indians would come out on top, by a long shot, but that stat is skewed badly because, for them, they are coming in through a stringent filter of H1b and educational enrollment. It is very disproportionately the relatively talented and the locally wealthy come. This population models the sort of people you would get in a reformed immigration system.

The second are Filipinos, also by some distance. This may surprise some people. Filipinos however do not have much of a filter, it is largely "chain-migration". It is not the Filipino upper classes that come, by and large, but the lower-middle. But still, the results are excellent, especially under the circumstances.

It may surprise people to know that white Europeans and Chinese immigrants fall substantially below the top two, on that metric.

Gahrie said...

The real problem with what he said is that he doesn't want folks from those places in this country.

I don't either. I don't want them to bring their tribalism, corruption and other pathologies that make their countries such shitholes here for us to try and deal with.

Why do you?

Pookie Number 2 said...

What is the difference between a Norwegian and people from the aforementioned shithole countries? It’s an obvious one.

Well, yes. The predominant culture in Norway is modern and broadly compatible with America's.

Drago said...

Of course, I didn't even mention the most obvious reason why Trump might have used Norway as an example of a successful nation, the Norwegian Prime Minister was here!!

LOL

Really though, it's the biggest mystery since Stonehenge why Trump would use Norway as an example.

A big, beautiful, yuuuuuuuuge mystery.

Jason said...

Pdug: "black people make shitty parents" is racist even if "shitty parenting" isn't a racist concept.

Libtards are constantly projecting their own insane bigotry and racism onto normal people.

This is an excellent example of just this kind of twisted libtard stupidity. Here's why:

If "shitty parenting exists," the idiots who object pointing out shitty parenting when the parents are black are the REAL racists.

M Jordan said...

Durban must’ve received real pushback for sitting next to Trump on Monday. This is his giant Virtue Signal. But truly, how low have Democrats sunk? Running to the press as soon as they exit a meeting in order to cause a shitstorm. How dirty is that?

buwaya said...

And by most standards both India and the Philippines are "shitholes", though not to a Haitian or African degree.

M Jordan said...

Durban must’ve received real pushback for sitting next to Trump on Monday. This is his giant Virtue Signal. But truly, how low have Democrats sunk? Running to the press as soon as they exit a meeting in order to cause a shitstorm. How dirty is that?

exiledonmainstreet said...

buwaya said...
Norway WAS a shithole.
So was Sweden.
Imagine Northern European countries having famines.
It happened.

1/12/18, 11:20 AM

Exactly. 19th century Norway was a backwater - cold, poor and largely rural. The economy was based on fishing, which is a very hard way to make a living. Those Norskies left and settled in Minnesota which was also cold and rural, but gave them the opportunity to own farms with better soil and were huge by European standards.

As I said in the other thread, Ireland and southern Italy, as beautiful as they are, were also shitholes in the 19th century. They were poverty-stricken, and badly or brutally run.

We needed immigration at that time to settle the West and man the factories. We had lost 600,000 men in the Civil War.

America did not let my ancestors in because of the words on the Statue of Liberty or because "that's who we are" or any other sentimental horseshit. They needed people. When they stopped needing them in the 1920's the gates closed.

Robert Payne said...

Gang clue in, this 3 post tirade could be Ann's reflexive anger at all of the propriety that she had to show at all of those academic staff meetings when she wanted to lash out. I see this in Instapundit as well. She has this bizarre illusion that this is the way business people speak. This is the same illusion that Scott Adams, who is long out of the business world, peddles. No, this is not proper language whether in public or in private.

Ann's civility bullshit label is just that. Put her in a room with actual people and see how language like that would go over. Only in the echo chamber of the blogosphere would it work.

Maybe more important for the scorekeepers here,do these remarks help move anyone into Trump's camp? Scott Adams no doubt will do another furious backfill that Ann will dutifully link to explaining how labeling the countries as "s---holes" is the move of a MASTER PERSUADER.

Drago said...

Everyone knows the dems and their LLR allies just want unrestricted migration of 3rd world socialists to ensure permanent democrat majorities.

Forever turning the US into Mexico City or Mogadishu is of absolutely no concern to them.

M Jordan said...

Sorry for double post. IT WASNT MY FAULT!

buwaya said...

So a logical metrics-driven immigration policy should favor talent-based tests, English tests, and, ideally, IQ tests.

Also, let in more Filipinos.

AReasonableMan said...

buwaya said...
The soundest one I can think of is median household income.


So you would like to displace white people at the top of the income pile in the US with asian people? Not sure this would be seen as particularly desirable by the white people already here.

Gahrie said...

I wonder if the leader of Norway has a Swiss bank account with billions of dollars in it while "his people" live in abject poverty?

Jupiter said...

Lydia said...
"Shithole" is just the sound-bite. The real problem with what he said is that he doesn't want folks from those places in this country."

Lydia, have you got a spare bedroom? Can we put you down for a half-dozen illiterate Somalian gang-rapists?

Inga said...

“Why do we need more Haitians? We should have more people from Norway.”
Trump

“In particular, when he learned that a certain proposal might lead to green cards for people from Haiti, he asked, “Why do we need more Haitians?” and added, “Take them out.” He also wanted to know why there couldn’t be more Norwegians coming over instead.”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/donald-trump-compounds-his-shithole-countries-bigotry-with-lies

Gahrie said...

@Inga:

So why do we need more Haitians?

buwaya said...

Payne,

This is how blue-collar technicians speak. In truck cabs and control rooms.

Unless one of the "schoolmasters" is within hearing.

I am one of those "schoolmasters". But I have no illusions.

hstad said...

:
Blogger Ann Althouse said...
One interpretation of what Trump said was:

We want people who have the most to contribute to our society, so people who are coming here from countries with good education and good economic conditions are probably going to give more than people who are living somewhere where it's so terrible that it seems like a good opportunity just to get out of where they are.

I think one answer to that argument is that people who come here to work at the highest levels of employment will be taking jobs from Americans who worked hard to get an education and train in a highly skilled profession, and the people who will take the lowest jobs are actually what we need more of.

1/12/18, 11:23 AM
Blogger Gahrie said...

Interesting comments by AA, but arguing theory only works so far. Our educational system is falling short and not producing the skills required by the economy - to many lawyers, social works, government workers, etc. Read the following from the USA article.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/01/23/best-best-us-jobs-tech-tech-tech/96723738/

Drago said...

Robert Payne: "Maybe more important for the scorekeepers here,do these remarks help move anyone into Trump's camp?"

That's actually an interesting question that is probably a lot more complex than you might think.

My extended family includes some missionaries who run an orphanage in Haiti. These children have nothing and these family members long ago determined they wanted to be there and help.

They have devoted themselves to this service and so their opinions are very interesting to us. Needless to say their opinion runs along these lines: No one who is actually trying to survive in Haiti cares about Trump's remarks, and they all want to come to the US, because they know they live in a "hell-hole" (their words)

That about sums it up.

Jupiter said...

AReasonableMan said...

"So you would like to displace white people at the top of the income pile in the US with asian people? Not sure this would be seen as particularly desirable by the white people already here."

ARM, being a good liberal ignoramus, believes that living around rich people makes you poor.

Bay Area Guy said...

Oh My God! Did you read the Times this morning?!!? Trump said a bad word! He said "Shithole"! I swear to God he did! I read it right there in the Times!

(Pauses, takes a sip of Cappuccino, half-caf, wipes small hint of foam from lips).

I, mean, can you believe it? That bastard! He said "Shithole"! He called those African-Haitians, or whatever they're called, "Shitholes" He's a racist!

(Checks phone, sees power running down).

Darn it, my phone is dying. I gotta find a charger. But, Yes, can you believe it?!!? He's the real shithole. I'll call you later, after lunch.

Chuck said...

Ann Althouse said...
One interpretation of what Trump said was:

We want people who have the most to contribute to our society, so people who are coming here from countries with good education and good economic conditions are probably going to give more than people who are living somewhere where it's so terrible that it seems like a good opportunity just to get out of where they are.

I think one answer to that argument is that people who come here to work at the highest levels of employment will be taking jobs from Americans who worked hard to get an education and train in a highly skilled profession, and the people who will take the lowest jobs are actually what we need more of.


Yeah, yeah, yeah; whatever.

I think you were doing a lot better, Althouse, when you were drilling down on whether Trump actually said, "shitholes." Yes or no.

If you didn't already note it from the other page, Durbin isn't waffling or hiding behind politeness anymore. Durbin said Trump used the word.

And again I say, that one word is now a bog deal insofar as Trump says he didn't say it. Trump made it a bigger deal. Now I want it to be an even bigger deal.

What bothers me, is that Trump has put the absolute worst face, on the tough immigration stance that I would have liked.

hstad said...

Gahrie - sorry, my bad on the cut and paste!

buwaya said...

Displacing white people at the top of the pile seems like it would equalize the pain of immigration.

Drago said...

You can't help but notice that Inga is never actually capable of making a case for increased immigration.

That's because there isn't one.

And even if there were, lets face it, she is not someone who could make it!

Still, you'd think a random cut and paste would be the minimum effort.

Alas.

rehajm said...

I think one answer to that argument is that people who come here to work at the highest levels of employment will be taking jobs from Americans who worked hard to get an education and train in a highly skilled profession, and the people who will take the lowest jobs are actually what we need more of.

It's a shit argument.

Gahrie said...

Now I want it to be an even bigger deal.

Which is precisely why the rest of us find you so contemptible.

AReasonableMan said...

Jupiter said...
ARM, being a good liberal ignoramus, believes that living around rich people makes you poor.


Not sure how stupid you have to be to come up with this interpretation, but it's pretty fucking stupid. Did you come some shithole country?

Drago said...

LLR Chuck: "I think you were doing a lot better, Althouse, when you were drilling down on whether Trump actually said, "shitholes." Yes or no."

That was a very clever formulation. Designed to obfuscate your beloved MSM liars lies.

Don't worry.

Everyone noticed. But only everyone.

cubanbob said...

buwaya said...
Norway WAS a shithole.
So was Sweden.
Imagine Northern European countries having famines.
It happened."

Haiti was once one of the richest countries on earth. That also happened.

Jupiter said...

Robert Payne said...
"No, this is not proper language whether in public or in private."

Pablo Picasso was never called an asshole.

AReasonableMan said...

buwaya said...
Displacing white people at the top of the pile seems like it would equalize the pain of immigration


And white people at the top of the pile are anxious to this because ...

hstad said...

LOL - Chuck believes, "....If you didn't already note it from the other page, Durbin isn't waffling or hiding behind politeness anymore. Durbin said Trump used the word....." This politician is one of the biggest crooks in DC, next to Schumer from NY. Guess Chuck takes their words as gospel! Why? Because Chuck loves to grind his ax on Trump.

Drago said...

LLR Chuck: "What bothers me, is that Trump has put the absolute worst face, on the tough immigration stance that I would have liked."

LOL

Sure Chuck. Sure.

Too funny.

buwaya said...

The worse problem, Payne, is as you said about Althouse in faculty meetings. The American mind is dead because thinking is shut down. We see the result of the dead minds.

No thought is possible, at that level.

This is enormously worse than anything to do with "civility".
It is terminal cancer, and you complain about hangnails.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Haiti was once one of the richest countries on earth. That also happened.

1/12/18, 11:41 AM

And Detroit was one of the 5 wealthiest cities in America.

Now: shithole.

Richard Dillman said...

Thank you for the Althousian lecture on philology. I told you shit had an impressive linguistic lineage. I will add these interesting historical variations on shitwordes to the scatology section of my word-hoard. Danke.

Michael said...

Trump will next make the point that it is stupid to waste resources that could be deployed in the African American community instead of bringing in people from shithole countries. I would think African Americans are not thrilled with African immigrants or Haitians. American blacks are are not keen on Africans and the latter think the American blacks are coddled and ungrateful.

buwaya said...

ARM,

They aren't, which is the point, yes?

This is in large part a class war.

Drago said...

exiled: "And Detroit was one of the 5 wealthiest cities in America.

Now: shithole"

Of course. And for the same reason as all the others: marxism and islam.

Of course, when you want to switch out the American electorate for a more dem-friendly one, the LLR"s and lefties need to marshall all their talking point skills.

Tank said...

Immigration is the most important issue we face as a nation. It is not just the most important, it is the issue. Either we are going to have a country that resembles the US of A and what it is/used to be or we are not.

So the President has a couple of big meetings and what do people want to talk about: (1) did he or did he not use the word shithole and (2) is it ok to call a country which everyone knows is a shithole a shithole.

This is why we can't "have a conversation" about anything meaningful, and why we are no longer a serious country.

Meanwhile, from what I've seen of the proposed bills, they suck.

Chuck said...

hstad said...
LOL - Chuck believes, "....If you didn't already note it from the other page, Durbin isn't waffling or hiding behind politeness anymore. Durbin said Trump used the word....." This politician is one of the biggest crooks in DC, next to Schumer from NY. Guess Chuck takes their words as gospel! Why? Because Chuck loves to grind his ax on Trump.

This is why I hang on to these things. To be able to come back and say "I told you so." It's because Trump denied it; that is why I want to hang on to this. It is why I want absolutely every meeting participant to be questioned. I want Trump backed into a corner on the discrete issue of his lying. The smaller the lie, the better, insofar as the extent of the lie will be clearer. It is the crystalline perfection of the lie that interests me.

Like Trump hanging up the phone, when caught on the "John Miller" episode.

Jim at said...

What should he have called a bunch of shithole countries, leftists?

Deplorable? Irredeemable?

Inga said...

“So why do we need more Haitians?”

Why not let the Haitians that are here stay?

buwaya said...

Haiti was "rich" when nearly everyone was a slave, and a bunch of immensely rich French families owned them. Sugar was akin to petroleum in those days, and places like Haiti and Jamaica are best seen as analogues to Kuwait and Brunei, and those families as today's Arab princelings. Napoleons Josephine was one of those heiresses.

Drago said...

Tank: "Immigration is the most important issue we face as a nation. It is not just the most important, it is the issue. Either we are going to have a country that resembles the US of A and what it is/used to be or we are not."

Indeed. This is the make or break issue for the nation. We lose this, America is gone. Get ready for little Mexico City, or little Caracas, or little Lagos.

This is why Chuck and his lefty allies are so invested in this story. They need it to gin up turnout for 2018 and also, hopefully, win the House and turn off the congressional investigations into democrats illegality in the election before much more gets exposed.

This is absolutely crucial to Chuck and his pals.

Robert Payne said...

Last bit before I go back to work.

Drago, nice story about your family and Haiti.Well put.

I think from the lack of pushback from Graham and Cotton that what Trump said was accurately reported. Now if I am wrong feel free to ridicule me, the day is young.

I just find this blog increasingly bizarre. First post--

"But also, why would Trump talk like that? Did he think it was funny and that it signaled to the people at the meeting that they were insiders, close to him and able to see him in an especially casual, chummy mode."

Second Post-

So was the quote we were all hyperventilating about last night fake news?!

Third Post-

"Shithole" is a perfectly good rude, slangy word. It has a great history, and it's vivid and effective. It is not a racial term, and shame on the people who are making it racist."

It seems last nigh that Ann was not very comfortable with the phrase, pivoted to denial, then to "nothing wrong" here.

Ya know sometimes it is okay to a blogger to just say "I blew it", but Ann seems unable to do it.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Why not let the Haitians that are here stay?

1/12/18, 11:51 AM


Bringing people here because of a natural disaster doesn't (or shouldn't) mean they can stay forever.

Inga, if your neighbor's house burns down and you let them live in the guestroom on a temporary basis, does that mean they can live with you for the next 12 or 20 years? Can they be your houseguests until they or you die?

cremes said...

What is the difference between a Norwegian and people from the aforementioned shithole countries? It’s an obvious one.

Clearly no one has listened to the Scott Adams periscope that Althouse posted about last night. He specifically addresses this complaint. Why Norway? Because Trump had just spent a large portion of his day meeting with the Prime Minister of Norway. That. Same. Day.

So Norway was at the forefront of his mind.

Scott Adams pointed out that CNN and other news outlets were downplaying this fact. They knew it but didn't want you to know it.

But if it makes you feel better to reflexively charge racism, well, we don't expect much better from you.

Limited blogger said...

Just glad Ann got to the correct interpretation. Trumpers were already on third base when Ann and the left just started to run for first.

Francisco D said...

What is the difference between a Norwegian and people from the aforementioned shithole countries? It’s an obvious one."

The empirical record suggests that any country would want to have more Norwegians.

My great great grandparents came here with nothing, just trying to survive a farm famine. They were among the settlers who made Wisconsin and Minnesota prosperous. They fed a nation on farms they built from the forests that covered most of the upper Midwest.

I am sure that other races and ethnicities have records of achievement. Don't go there with race, Inga. It is the stupid person's way out.

Chuck said...

Tank said...
Immigration is the most important issue we face as a nation. It is not just the most important, it is the issue. Either we are going to have a country that resembles the US of A and what it is/used to be or we are not.

So the President has a couple of big meetings and what do people want to talk about: (1) did he or did he not use the word shithole and (2) is it ok to call a country which everyone knows is a shithole a shithole.

This is why we can't "have a conversation" about anything meaningful, and why we are no longer a serious country.

Meanwhile, from what I've seen of the proposed bills, they suck.

I quite agree with you. More than you could ever imagine.

And I expect that Trump has weakened his "strong" position on immigration via this stupidly inflammatory stuff.

Pookie Number 2 said...

Chuck: This is why I hang on to these things. To be able to come back and say "I told you so."

Really? Your life is so empty that you gain pleasure from claiming that you've won pointless arguments over absolutely meaningless minutiae?

.
.
.

Actually, that explains quite a lot.

Drago said...

Francisco: "I am sure that other races and ethnicities have records of achievement. Don't go there with race, Inga. It is the stupid person's way out."

It is literally all Inga and Chuck have left for the dems to take into November. When you have one play in the playbook, that's the play you call.

Drago said...

LLR Chuck: "I quite agree with you. More than you could ever imagine."

LOL

Robert Payne said...

Cremes

Just a quick one. In case you haven't noticed, Adams is heavily invested as having the correct interpretation of what Trump is saying. Usually it is to point out the subtle genius of what Trump is saying to help "label" someone or something. Trump is the master persuader after all.
The Periscope may be correct on the context, but fails to explain the poor phrasing-- why not Hell-Hole as opposed to Shit-Hole? Again, I ask the scorekeepers how this whole event helps Trump-- and Adams leads us to believe that everything he says has a deeper purpose.

Drago said...

Robert Payne: "In case you haven't noticed, Adams is heavily invested as having the correct interpretation of what Trump is saying"

In case you haven't noticed, EVERYONE is heavily invested as having the correct interpretation of what Trump is saying.

Jupiter said...

Robert Payne said...
"She has this bizarre illusion that this is the way business people speak. This is the same illusion that Scott Adams, who is long out of the business world, peddles. No, this is not proper language whether in public or in private."

C'mon, Payne. Are you trying to tell us that no one ever turned to you in the middle of a business dinner and asked, "So, just exactly how long is that stick up your ass?"

dreams said...

Here is some more info, apparently Trumps words were conflated.

https://ijr.com/the-declaration/2018/01/1048543-jake-tapper-reveals-what-trump-reportedly-really-said-and-didnt-say-about-shthole-countries/

Drago said...

"The empirical record suggests that any country would want to have more Norwegians"

Empirical evidence is literally white supremacy.

Literally.

bagoh20 said...

I challenge anyone to come up with a more accurate one-word description of Haiti.
You can't?
Maybe you're not a genius.

gadfly said...

Ann Althouse said...
One interpretation of what Trump said was:

We want people who have the most to contribute to our society, so people who are coming here from countries with good education and good economic conditions are probably going to give more than people who are living somewhere where it's so terrible that it seems like a good opportunity just to get out of where they are.


That "one interpretation" sounds like words from Scott Adams, whose Dilbert cartoon somehow qualifies him as an expert on The Donald.

But migration is entirely based upon economics - which means that the misbegotten and the forlorn characters of the world seek betterment. But most of us, and most certainly our "stable genius" neither care nor spend time gathering facts before sending the government off in some compelling but ill-defined new direction. Don Henley got it right - but his advice is routinely ignored:

You don`t really need to find out what`s going on
You don`t really want to know just how far it`s gone
Just leave well enough alone
Eat your dirty laundry


exiledonmainstreet said...

Let's be clear here: OF COURSE, there are many good people here from Third World countries. OF COURSE, most of them are not terrorists or criminals (although we have no good way of determining who the bad guys are). OF COURSE, many have sad stories to tell.

However, there are a billion other people from Third World countries who are not criminals or terrorists and also have hard luck stories. We can't let them all in and remain America.

Tucker Carlson always asks pro-immigration guests just how many more people we should let in before we are sufficiently "diverse." They ignore the question or don't give him a straight answer, because the truth is they don't want the spigot turned off - ever.

Drago said...

dreams: "Here is some more info, apparently Trumps words were conflated"

I linked to that earlier.

That is why the entire left and LLR Chuck immediately flexed to their fall back decontextualizing positions.

At that point, about mid-morning, LLR Chuck and the entire lefty establishment went to the -forget the discussion or what was discussed, just focus on whether or not that word was used, period -.

You'll notice LLR Chuck immediately jumped through that little "journolist" talking point hoop...but only immediately, as if commanded.

Fernandistein said...

Gahrie said...
Haiti shares an island with the Dominican Republic. The people in both countries are identical.


No, they're not identical.

"Our results indicate that although both Haiti and Jamaica display genetic affinities with the continental African collections, a stronger African signal is detected in Haiti than in Jamaica. Although only minimal contributions from non-African sources were observed in Haiti, Jamaica displays genetic input from both European and East Asian sources, an admixture profile similar to other New World collections of African descent analyzed in this report. The divergent genetic signatures present in these populations allude to the different migratory events of Africans, Europeans, and East Asians into the New World."

IOW, the differences are what one would expect.

Drago said...

gadfly, the Poor Man's LLR Chuck, decides to weigh in with...something....followed up by some Don Henley lyrics.

In gadfly's defense, this effort, of clearly poor quality, at least contained some lyrics.

Khesanh 0802 said...

Since there is no other thread right now and since this might just fall under the "civility bullshit" tag: Ammo GrrL on Powerline discusses (?) showers vs baths. A debate right up there in national importance with Ann's shorts vs no shorts debate. Good for a laugh!

Ray said...

Trump just shattered another Overton Window.

Messy as usual.

Now we are talking about "why should/is the US be prioritizing immigration from shit hole countries?"

Gahrie said...

“So why do we need more Haitians?”

No answer huh? I guess it's just easier to yell racist.

Why not let the Haitians that are here stay?

If they are here legally they can.

If they are here illegally....because they came here illegally. But that isn't even the issue at play here. The issue is, should we give Haitians access to preferred immigration status, and if so, why?

Roughcoat said...

I'd rather have Norwegians immigrating coming to the U.S. than black Haitians. Dare I say why? Can you tell me?

The Irish, on the other hand ... let me think about that. We've got enough of 'em it seems to me.

MountainMan said...

Ann Althouse said at 11:23 AM:

"We want people who have the most to contribute to our society, so people who are coming here from countries with good education and good economic conditions are probably going to give more than people who are living somewhere where it's so terrible that it seems like a good opportunity just to get out of where they are. "

"I think one answer to that argument is that people who come here to work at the highest levels of employment will be taking jobs from Americans who worked hard to get an education and train in a highly skilled profession, and the people who will take the lowest jobs are actually what we need more of."

---
I think Trump is 100% correct on the first point and your concerns in your second point might be a little too harsh.

Letting the highly skilled people in has significant economic benefit to the US. Generally, these people will be filling a lot of critical jobs, mainly in science, engineering, and medicine. Many will be starting companies, creating jobs, paying taxes. I think about 1/3 of all the tech companies in Silicon Valley were created by immigrants, so in many cases they are creating their own jobs and jobs for many others, not taking away existing jobs. The US provides them with a lot of resources they don't have at home - good infrastructure, access to capital, and also the rule of law and lack or corruption that exists in their home countries. (The abuse of H1B visas has been taking jobs from US citizens, but that is another issue, since those are supposed to be temporary visas, not for permanent residence).

It's the illegal, low-education and unskilled that are the big problem. Since they are allowed to collect benefits they are a huge drain on our economy. I think it was Pew that in the last couple of months put out a study that showed that illegal aliens in the US cost us about $165B/yr while paying only about $16B/yr in taxes. So much for the lefty shibboleth that the illegal aliens are paying their own way.

It is interesting how Singapore handles immigration for permanent residence and citizenship. They have a program that allows the well-educated and highly-skilled to come in to work, but if you want permanent residence and a path to citizenship you've got to have a proven track record as an entrepreneur and business developer and then put up 2.5M SGD (about 1.8M USD) of your own money in business investment or you can't be considered. Also, if you are between the ages of 18-50, you must also meet their compulsory military service requirement. If you are not coming to be a net contributor to the country's success, they don't want you.



Jupiter said...

"I'm giving this post my "civility bullshit" tag. You know what that means? It means that calls for civility are always bullshit."

Not sure what to make of that. Certainly, there are people who are distressed by incivility, and they will from time to time call for civility when they feel it is not being practiced. Are you saying that, as a matter of practical experience, people who inject calls for "civility" into public debate are insincere, and are actually just trying to make their opponents look bad?

Gahrie said...

No, they're not identical.

??? Am I missing something. I make the correct statement that the people of Haiti and the Dominican Republic (which share an island) are identical and you link an article arguing that the people of Haiti and Jamaica (and entirely separate island)are different.

Bay Area Guy said...

Y'all ever been to Tijuana?

We used to get drunk and drive across the border to drink more in Tijuana.

TJ is pretty much a shithole, too. And, I can't say we made it any better:)

I'm pretty sure if we brought all the folks in TJ over to the USA, well, certain "problems" here would arise. Anyone disagree?

I do concede that there are pockets of fine folks in Tijuana, who, if given the chance to blossom in America, would improve their lot in life, and improve the USA. No doubt about that. But it's hard to pick only the cream of the crop, when enforcing a national immigration policy.

Gahrie said...

Are you saying that, as a matter of practical experience, people who inject calls for "civility" into public debate are insincere, and are actually just trying to make their opponents look bad?

By Jove, I think he's got it!

(did you see what I did there?)

fivewheels said...

"Adams leads us to believe that everything he says has a deeper purpose."

For you and all the others who are deeply invested in the point of view that Adams is just a kneejerk Trump apologist, maybe you should check out his periscope where he argues that calling those countries shitholes (if he did say it) was a blunder, a "10 out of 10" on the scale of saying the wrong thing.

He has a deeper point than that, but it is his clearly stated position.

Jupiter said...

exiledonmainstreet said...
"Let's be clear here: OF COURSE, there are many good people here from Third World countries. OF COURSE, most of them are not terrorists or criminals (although we have no good way of determining who the bad guys are)."

Afraid I can't agree, exiled. When someone voluntarily joins a criminal gang, one whose ethos explicitly makes those outside the gang lawful prey, that person is a "bad guy". And that is the case with all Muslims. They are no different than the Crips or the Hell's Angels. They are never going to be good citizens. They are always going to be a menace to their neighbors, unless they renounce their allegiance to the gang. Right now, in response to Trump's moving the embassy to Jerusalem, there are Muslim imams preaching in their mosques calling for death to the Jews. We should never have let these scum into our country.

tcrosse said...

No shortage of Norskis in MN or WI. But maybe we'll get more Swedes, now that Sverige is turning into a third-world shithole.

DanZenner said...

Ann Althouse said..
I'm giving this post my "civility bullshit" tag. You know what that means? It means that calls for civility are always bullshit.

Thank you Ann. Well said. I love it when you cut through the (civility) bullshit.

cremes said...

Robert Payne asked:
Just a quick one. In case you haven't noticed, Adams is heavily invested as having the correct interpretation of what Trump is saying. Usually it is to point out the subtle genius of what Trump is saying to help "label" someone or something. Trump is the master persuader after all.
The Periscope may be correct on the context, but fails to explain the poor phrasing-- why not Hell-Hole as opposed to Shit-Hole?


I point you to the periscope. This topic is addressed.

If you watch it, you may learn that Scott Adams does NOT say this shithole comment is evidence of Master Persuasion. He says the opposite; this was a mistake.

So while Adams may be "heavily invested" (as you say) in Trump being a Master Persuader, he's not quite the sycophant you reflexively label him.

Inga said...

“We should never have let these scum into our country.”

Overheard at the First Thanksgiving...

walter said...

UN is shocked! Shocked!
Their peacekeepers in Haiti were supposed to reign supreme in abusing shitholes.

Bay Area Guy said...

"Civility bullshithole" tag

When you spend time in a shitty country, see the bullshit first hand, endure the shithole, but due to political correctness, take flak for calling said country a shithole.

mockturtle said...

Why have we not heard Dems crying for more Cuban immigrants? Could it be because they tend to vote Republican?

Inga said...

“We should never have let these scum into our country.”
—————————————-
“New York (CNN)Private Emmanuel Mensah went off to serve in the Army National Guard, but it was back home where he made the ultimate sacrifice.

Mensah died trying to rescue people from his burning apartment building last month in the Bronx, New York, in the city's deadliest fire in more than 25 years, Mayor Bill de Blasio said.

Mensah, 28, had immigrated from Ghana in Africa and was a permanent legal resident in the US. His story has taken on new meaning in the wake of President Donald Trump's reported vulgar comments about immigrants from El Salvador, Haiti and some African countries.”

exiledonmainstreet said...

Inga said...
“We should never have let these scum into our country.”

Overheard at the First Thanksgiving...

1/12/18, 12:39 PM

America wasn't a "country" at that point. It was a largely unpopulated continent and the Eastern seaboard was a colony of England.

If you think Native American tribes were united and saw themselves as a country - well, read a few books, Inga.

Snark isn't very effective when it's ignorant snark.

gadfly said...

Blogger Drago said...
gadfly, the Poor Man's LLR Chuck, decides to weigh in with...something....followed up by some Don Henley lyrics.

In gadfly's defense, this effort, of clearly poor quality, at least contained some lyrics.


It certainly is a better "effort" than your insult. I have now come to understand that, sadly, you and the "stable genius" have comparable IQs.

We all know that Crap is King
Give us dirty laundry!

fivewheels said...

"Overheard at the First Thanksgiving... "

Never mind Adams, if *I* were invested in believing everything Trump does is 4D chess (I am not) I would believe he said this just to goad people on the left into doing what they're doing here and all over Twitter: Shitting on America, arguing that we are the real shithole because we don't ban guns, outlaw free speech or have Hillarycare -- revealing their actual beliefs.

Jupiter said...

Gahrie said...

"??? Am I missing something. I make the correct statement that the people of Haiti and the Dominican Republic (which share an island) are identical..."

No, they're not identical. Haiti, as I'm sure you know, was founded by the World's only successful slave rebellion. As a result, "The gene pool of Haiti is about 95.5% Sub-Saharan African,". The same is not true of the Dominican Republic. I refer you to the demographics sections of the wikipedia articles on those two nations.

I had not known that "... the newly independent Dominicans were forcefully annexed by Haiti in February 1822. Independence came 22 years later after victory in the Dominican War of Independence in 1844." Interesting.

Tim at large said...

This discussion is why I refer to Trump as the “light bringer.” Not kidding either.

Inga said...

We should never have let these scum into our country.”
—————————————-

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/us-military-history-is-rich-with-immigrants-who-left-the-countries-trump-disparaged-1.506446

Then-Capt. Ademola Fabayo speaks to prospective lieutenants at Marine Corps Base Quantico, Va., on Nov. 9, 2012. Fabayo – a Nigerian-born American citizen – earned the Navy Cross, which is second only to the Medal of Honor in recognizing combat valor.
CHRISTOPHER ZAHN/U.S. MARINE CORPS

The bloody Sept. 8, 2009, battle in Kunar Province's village of Ganjgal is one of the U.S. military's most traumatic in the long war in Afghanistan. Five U.S. servicemembers were killed, prompting soul-searching about whether the U.S. troops in the field were adequately supported, and it led to two Medals of Honor - the nation's highest award for valor in combat.

But the battle also is something else: A lesson in how the U.S. military is a kaleidoscope of cultures, races and religions, with units pulling together to meet common goals under occasionally brutal circumstances.

That reminder seems timely following a Washington Post report Thursday that said that during an Oval Office meeting with lawmakers focused on immigration reform, President Donald Trump asked of people from African countries, El Salvador and Haiti: "Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?"“

Jupiter said...

Inga said...
“We should never have let these scum into our country.”

"Overheard at the First Thanksgiving..."

You know, Igna, idiots like you have been making that joke for about 25 years now, by my reckoning. And it never seems to occur to you that what you are saying is, if the Indians had been able to enforce a rational immigration policy, they would still own an immense nation, instead of being an impoverished remnant on a few scattered reservations. Or maybe you *do* understand that, and that is the future you want for my children.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

"Six shitten shotes did I shoote in thy mowth that I shot from my shithole."

Guess that makes him a six shitter, doesn't it?

exiledonmainstreet said...



Blogger fivewheels said...
"Overheard at the First Thanksgiving... "

Never mind Adams, if *I* were invested in believing everything Trump does is 4D chess (I am not) I would believe he said this just to goad people on the left into doing what they're doing here and all over Twitter: Shitting on America, arguing that we are the real shithole because we don't ban guns, outlaw free speech or have Hillarycare -- revealing their actual beliefs.

1/12/18, 12:49 PM

Yep.

Leftist logic: "America sucks and is bad and racist! But we need to let people with much more tolerant and diverse and non-racist cultures into our sucky, bad, racist country because they want to leave their wonderful, beautiful countries behind and move to our shithole!"

MountainMan said...

The Atlanta-Journal Constitution has just reported that GA Sen David Perdue, who was in the immigration meeting, has said that he did not hear Trump make any disparaging remarks about Haiti or Africa.

Richard Dillman said...

According to NPR, Port-Au-Prince is the largest city in the world without a central sewage system. Sewage tuns in open ditches and mixes with garbage. This multiplies the impact of various diseases. Try to imagine this as the reality of everyday life.

Tim at large said...

I make the correct statement that the people of Haiti and the Dominican Republic (which share an island) are identical...”

Wow, there’s a rock I never turned over!

Changing identity was more simple than not before 2013, when the Constitutional Court of the Dominican Republic ruled children born to undocumented parents in the country since 1929 were not entitled to citizenship, leaving an estimated 200,000 Haitian Dominicans stateless. Tens of thousands have already been deported, while others fled the country in fear. “I have a lot of friends who are scared that the government is going to send them back to Haiti,” Calixte said.

Fernandistein said...

Gahrie said...

ME: "No, they're not identical."

I make the correct statement that the people of Haiti and the Dominican Republic (which share an island) are identical and you link an article arguing that the people of Haiti and Jamaica (and entirely separate island)are different.


Oops, thanks, I think for catching that.

But they're still not the same.

"The genetic makeup of the Dominican Republic's population is estimated to be 52.15% European, 39.57% Black African, and 8.28% Native American on average according to recent genealogical DNA testing."

The gene pool of Haiti is about 95.5% Sub-Saharan African, 4.3% European, with the rest showing some traces of East Asian genes;[247] according to a 2010 autosomal genealogical DNA testing."

Inga said...

“U.S. Sen. Tim Scott said he talked to fellow South Carolina Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham about hearing President Donald Trump's "shithole countries" comment and Graham confirmed to him the president said it.

Graham, Scott said, told him the reported comments are “basically accurate.”

“If that comment is accurate, the comment is incredibly disappointing,” Scott also told The Post and Courier on Friday morning.”

https://www.postandcourier.com/politics/sen-tim-scott-trump-s-shithole-countries-comment-is-accurate/article_e99c2fba-f7a9-11e7-a381-d7950e17b81f.html

BillieBob Thorton said...

I've been to Haiti. It's a shithole.

Tim at large said...

Shitty Media Men, Shithole countries, Shitty Shitty Bang Bang!

exiledonmainstreet said...

Or maybe you *do* understand that, and that is the future you want for my children.

1/12/18, 12:55 PM

It's the future she wants for her children and grandchildren too.

Perhaps she thinks they'll be treated with kindness and respect by the new majority because they're "good whites." Right. After decades of hearing how the white race is responsible for all the ills of the universe, they're going to make exceptions for Inga's little darlings and only punish the deplorables.

Yep. That's just how it worked in Rwanda and the Balkans in the '90's!

Tim at large said...

Oh crap! Now Inga and Gadfly aren’t going to vote for Trump!

Drago said...

Inga relays "We should never have let these scum into our country.”

Then posts a heartwarming tale of success in America.

Here's another story:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/21/report-reveals-92-percent-foreign-nationals-in-federal-prisons-are-illegal-immigrants.html

"Report reveals 92 percent of foreign nationals in federal prisons are illegal immigrants"

The good news is that they've only killed hundreds of Americans.

But in a good, Inga approved way.

Let's let them all in! Lot's more American targets to go!

Drago said...

Tim at large: "Oh crap! Now Inga and Gadfly aren’t going to vote for Trump!"

Trump has no path to 270.

None.

Zilch.

LLR Chuck celebrates!!......until he doesn't.....

Mary said...

You’re saying it’s not racist. Then maybe you need to be clear on what is racist. If I’m renting out an apartment and I say I don’t want anybody from shithole Haiti or Africa renting it out, would that not be racist? Discriminating?

Drago said...

As Ace points out:

“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

Ouch.

"wretched refuse"

Trump should use that phrase. That would be okay, wouldn't it?

Jim at said...

Overheard at the First Thanksgiving...

What was the United States' immigration policy at that first Thanksgiving?

exiledonmainstreet said...

Inga relays "We should never have let these scum into our country.”

Then posts a heartwarming tale of success in America.

Here's another story:

"Report reveals 92 percent of foreign nationals in federal prisons are illegal immigrants"

Yeah, the media focuses on the heartwarming tales and not the crime rates because they know what dumb suckers the Ingas in this country are. Just give them a few heartwarming tales and forget the stats, because logic is boring.

And besides, the victims of the crimes those foreign nationals commit are other foreign nationals who live in places Inga and her children never visit, like National Ave. in Milwaukee. Inga, I suggest you take a drive down National Ave. at night, by yourself, and enjoy the diversity!

No, Inga, in her white, white, white neighborhood cries over the poor immigrants, who are all noble heroes and honor students. That makes Inga feel sooooo good about herself.

Tim at large said...

The idea is to dilute the votes of the deplorables until they don’t matter. In other words, the plan is to “replace them” Where have we heard this before? It’s almost like the Ingas of the world WANT to create a white nationalist identity where there really wasn’t much of one before.

Drago said...

Jim at: "What was the United States' immigration policy at that first Thanksgiving?"

Inga is so ignorant that she doesn't know that the first thanksgiving took place in a village that had been emptied of native americans by disease a year before the Pilgrims arrived.

The pilgrims had to throw off their stupid socialist ideas and implement a capitalist approach that led to "plenty", for which they celebrated.

It's a good thing that Christian Squanto (yes, he was a Christian) who taught the pilgrims about crops that would grow there and how to farm in that area. Without Squanto and without capitalist freedom all the Pilgrims would have died.

Inga's pals in Venezuela show us this very day what can go wrong when you go big time lefty socialist.

Tim at large said...

What was the United States' immigration policy at that first Thanksgiving?

I think the Indians had a meeting and decided that a wall was “too costly.”

Gospace said...

Gahrie said...
Haiti shares an island with the Dominican Republic. The people in both countries are identical.


Don't ever say that to Dominican's unless you want to start a fight.

Jason said...
"Haiti's capital city doesn't have a sewer system. Instead, so-called nightsoil, or human excrement, is largely removed by hand by workers who toil at night under cover of darkness."


When I first visited Korea, Chin Hae and Pusan, that was largely the way nightsoil was handled in Korea. But during the day. The image in my mind was an old man walking a bicycle with huge poly jugs attached, and going house to house, people wold pour their household waste into them. Nothing was thrown on the street. It was an honorable job, as all jobs that had to be doe were.

Ten years later, that job had disappeared, replaced by sewers. There were other huge differences in the ten year stretch. Korea had advanced in many ways.

In PI, Olongapo, my first visit, was a shithole. Ten years later- Olongapo was still a shithole. I never saw nightsoil being collected, but in some neighborhoods simply deposited in the streets.

People or culture? Or are they invariably intertwined?

Tim at large said...

Squanto learned his farming techniques in Europe, BTW. He lived for a while i a place where the practice was to use a fish as fertilizer.

tcrosse said...

"We should never have let these scum into our country.”

Said the French and English colonists at the arrival of the first Germans.

Jupiter said...

Mary said...
"You’re saying it’s not racist. Then maybe you need to be clear on what is racist. If I’m renting out an apartment and I say I don’t want anybody from shithole Haiti or Africa renting it out, would that not be racist? Discriminating?"

That would certainly be discrimination on the basis of national origin, and many might presume that your motivation was indeed racist. Since it's a hypothetical, we can't really say. It could just be that you don't want anyone shitting on the floor in your apartment. Or maybe you are hoping to have tenants who will pay the rent. But of course, the government will pay their rent with section 8 so probably it would be the shit on the floor and the cooking fires. Hypothetically.

Let me ask you, if you refused to rent to people who shit on the floor and don't pay the rent, would that be racist?

Tim at large said...

What is really funny is all of the comments about “Why would Norwegians even come here?” with the implicit (“their country is not a shithole”) left out.

Inga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gahrie said...

You’re saying it’s not racist. Then maybe you need to be clear on what is racist. If I’m renting out an apartment and I say I don’t want anybody from shithole Haiti or Africa renting it out, would that not be racist?

It depends. It might be based on prior experience with people from those places.


Discriminating?

Discriminating is not per se evil, even if most forms are illegal in the U.S. today.

Inga said...

We should never have let these scum into our country.”

“Said the French and English colonists at the arrival of the first Germans.”

Said French and English Americans at the arrival of the famine fleeing Irish

FIDO said...

I am always amazed that the Left seems to believe that the Right owes them to commit electoral suicide by Amnesty.


No we don't.

But further: Black and Hispanic men are now supporting Trump in numbers which are alarming to...well...Leftists. So that amnesty thing of welcoming religious, socially conservative, patriarchal families into the Democratic 'fold' are not going to have the stellar results that you think they will have.

Jupiter said...

tcrosse said...

"Said the French and English colonists at the arrival of the first Germans."

Not to mention the Dutch in New Amsterdam, when the more numerous English changed the name to New York City.

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