Writes Roger Simon in a post that's been linked to twice in the last 2 hours at Instapundit — first by Ed Driscoll...
ROGER SIMON: Is Charlottesville Really What’s Going on in the USA?... and second by Glenn Reynolds...
Read the whole thing.
I WAS GOING TO WRITE SOMETHING ABOUT CHARLOTTESVILLE TODAY, but honestly I don’t think I could do better than Roger Simon. I do want to echo his comment that, for all the racial tension we see in the media and in politics, out in the actual world black and white people seem to be getting along pretty well. I wrote something about that here.Somehow, I still believe that people are really good at heart. I look at those people — with their cheesy tiki torches, their cosplay shields, and their lack of female companionship — and I see them as lost souls. I'd like to invite them down off the ledge and into a more rational, loving human existence.
I wouldn't throw them in a basket of deplorables or shoot them on a one-way trip to Alpha Centauri. I wouldn't "Indict them, convict them, and lock them up for a long as possible." If any individual commits a crime, enforce the criminal law following the same standards of due process that apply to everyone else and impose a fair sentence. But don't go after people because you hate them as a group, and don't use criminal law to squelch thought and speech.
Less hate. More love. Less censorship. More speech.
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255 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 255 of 255Employers terminating people for attending a political function seems to be entering a very perilous area. I know enough that if were to do this, or even seem to have retaliated for political reasons, we would be legally out on a limb.
ARM: "On Friday night, we witnessed armed white supremacists march through university grounds with lit torches, threatening, harassing and physically assaulting students who were organizing peacefully — or who were just trying to go about their business despite the shocking events unfolding in their backyard."
Armed? I had no idea anyone was shot. ARM? Who was shot?
The photos in the UK Mail, despite efforts to the contrary, show "antifa-types" attacking guys in fatigues and unarmed others. I don't know if they were "white supremacists." The attackers didn't seem to be asking. I doubt that ARM's snowflake asked either.
ARM: Vanguard America’s manifesto is apparently entitled "American Fascism". We all have some claim to victory here. The good vibes just keep flowing.
Indeed. Diversity is our strength. And right now, we have only one flavor of totalitarian moonbattery allowed to run wild in our schools, workplaces, and public square. Stale, whitebread lefty jackbootin' hardly represents the glorious batshit kaleidescope that has always made us Who We Are.
"can't you find some time to condemn the fascist agitators [sic] who just killed a resident of the city?"
Funny, I thought "trials" and "verdicts" came before condemnation, at least back in the olden days, but if it makes you feel any better, I'll condemn Fields' extremely reckless and irresponsible behavior. If (or more likely, when) he's convicted of a crime, I'll join in condemning him for that, too (though I don't think my condemnation will have much effect).
"But don't go after people because you hate them as a group, and don't use criminal law to squelch thought and speech."
Great sentiment but it's a little too late. We've reached the point where no one with any position of power dares to counter the PC narrative. A narrative which claims there are some words and thoughts so bad that those who say or think them must be removed from society. We saw what happened to that young man who worked for Google.
But what gives me hope is that I've seen alternative media on Youtube that reveals that many in the younger generation are pushing back against the SJW mindset. They are doing it intelligently and thoughtfully using reasoned dialogue as opposed to the shrill shouting matches we see on traditional media. I wish them luck. They need to win the argument in our culture if we want to have any chance of protecting our constitutional rights.
Just saw the Vice-Mayor, Wes Bellamy, of Charlottsville, with his Black Panther backpack going into a meeting in the Mayors office.
Foreplay for a Greensboro Klan-Commie style shootout. Flashback to 1979
May already have been linked:
Who says you can't beat on City Hall?
Another small riot
Night Owl said...
there are some words and thoughts so bad that those who say or think them must be removed from society.
We just saw a legal march by a "white supremacist, neo-Nazi" group, who's manifesto is entitled "American Fascism", through a town they that didn't live in and whose residents didn't want them there. And then they killed someone. Doesn't it seem like they received a reasonable amount of public space to expound on their ideology and its consequences?
Ralph L said...
Who says you can't beat on City Hall?
What sort of a dumb asshole do you have to be to come back to the town in which you are directly responsible for organizing the events that lead to a residents death and then whine about the the political representatives of that town? The guy deserves a Darwin Award.
@ARM, Fields has an "inalienable right" to self defense, regardless of whether you agree with his ideology or not. Do you not get that? Do you not understand that First Amendment rights are not there just to protect speech and demonstrations that everyone approved of, but in fact are there to protect the people whose views are unpopular, even those whose views are downright reprehensible?
Let's do a "shoe's on the other foot" thought experiment, shall we? Suppose instead of your echo chamber it was I who got to decide whether your comments constituted hate speech and whether equal protection under the law should apply to a h8er like you. How would you fare then?
I believe the Attorney General needs a Special Prosecutor to find out where Antifa money is coming from, who is busing them around the country, and why the FBI, State Police, and municipalities are not doing anything to prevent their terrorism.
Schumer should announce his support of this investigation.
Honestly, I prefer BLM protesters to the Antifa bunch. At least the BLM people have some notion of why they are protesting.
Doesn't it seem like they received a reasonable amount of public space to expound on their ideology and its consequences?
Categorically not! The police owed them protection from fascist mobs (who quaintly call themselves "antifascists" but apply the tactics pioneered by Hitler's Brown Shirts in the 1930s) who attacked them with rocks and clubs.
ARM: ..."can't you find some time to condemn the fascist agitators who just killed a resident of the city?"
Let me check my agenda...Hmmm, no, no time available for monkey-dancing for morally squalid lefty commissar wannabes. As a matter of fact, I haven't been able to pencil you guys in since, hey, the late 1970s. Sorry.
I know you weren't asking me, but I bet Mr. Hayden is a busy man, too.
8/13/17, 4:56 PM
Bruce Hayden said...
Think that this was the end of the governor's political career. Likely couldn't be elected dog catcher (even if he weren't term limited as governor) state wide, after giving the stand down order for the state police on hand there and refusing to condem the Antifa people, after condemning the white nationalists whose protest the Antifa people came to (and did) physically disrupt.
As Etienne says above, and as I said on another thread, President Trump's DOJ should immediately begin investigations into the violations of civil rights caused by Democratic governments in cities who allow suppression of conservative views and specifically who allow debacles like this to occur. If you can't get McAuliffe to do 20 years in federal prison, the people in Charlottesville will have to do.
And ARM, it would be very very hard to get me to condemn the killing of a communist. In fact now that I think of it, does this guy have a GoFundMe?
Funny, I thought "trials" and "verdicts" came before condemnation...
Trials and verdicts come before conviction. You're allowed to condemn murder, or fascism, whenever you want.
The thing to remember is that, while something like a percent of a percent of assholes fought each other in Charlotttesville, across the country, more people volunteered or gave to charity the same day.
What the Nazi/Fascist/White Nationalist lot could do, and what I recommend, is nonviolence, Gandhi/MLK style, looking to produce martyrs.
That is the most likely route to success. The irony will be explosive.
Interesting....
Wapo isn't letting antifa off scott-free:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/13/fear-of-violent-left-preceded-events-in-charlottesville/?utm_term=.42660603f117
And NYT is acknowledging the VA State Police standdown:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/13/us/charlottesville-protests-white-nationalists.html
Don't know if that means anything, but it's highly unusual for the MSM to give space to actual reality now a days.
Buwaya, honest decent people have been martyring themselves or getting martyred for years, but they don't get any press and their story dropped into a black hole. This at least will get attention. I can't believe these scumbags are making me feel sympathy for this guy.
"Categorically not! The police owed them protection from fascist mobs (who quaintly call themselves "antifascists" but apply the tactics pioneered by Hitler's Brown Shirts in the 1930s) who attacked them with rocks and clubs."
"You're allowed to condemn murder, or fascism, whenever you want."
Thanks for the clarification. When he's convicted of murder, I'll condemn him for that. Since 'fascism' is such an elastic category these days – really, it seems to mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean at that moment – I think I'll hold off until I know more.
"Less hate. More love. Less censorship. More speech."
"Fewer lies" would be nice, too.
I don't know these people, or any like them. All my acquaintances, friends, family, workmates, others I meet over the course of moving through the world on a daily basis, are not like these folks. Who are they that have time to participate in such activities? The rest of us (some 319m+ of us) are too busy earning a living, raising children, caring for family members, celebrating birthdays, or just plain living a life.
The media pay outsized attention to such stuff (though a car driving through a crowd is certainly newsworthy) to the point they are arguing it is normal, not unusual. But it is unusual, it really is.
Notice the assumption that it's simply a fact that it was "a white supremacist rally." I'm not sure that's established. I don't think you can assume that everyone who attended that rally has a "white supremacist" ideology, but I think there's a big effort right now to lump the entire alt-right into that category.
It's quite possible that much of the alt-right consists of well meaning dupes who've been bamboozled into participating in a fantasy in which time is reversed and they can live in a 50s themed Disney version of their youth.
It's not fair to blame the far left for their actions. After majoring in Antifa with a minor in SJW in college and not being able to find a job that fits their degree, what else are they supposed to do? I'll bet some of them have been training for this since grade school. Give them a break!
[Snark off]
People driven to violence by their extremism are not good people, right or left. 'Because the other side' is not a defense for these actions. I can see looking for social constructs that foment the actions, but it in no way excuses them.
"The press conference ended when a man in a plaid shirt punched Mr. Kessler. Although the police detained him briefly, he was not arrested."
A very large proportion of the modern US right are very young. You can see that in the pictures from this protest, from Berkeley, Sacramento, etc. Though there are rugged greybeards, many are high school kids.
I don't think I have ever seen such a mixed group in US political manifestations actually. The range of personal styles and aspects is vast.
For most of them, its not nostalgia from the 50's. They came of age in a depression, were survivors of family disorder and terrible educations. There isn't all that much to be nostalgic about.
People driven to violence by their extremism are not good people, right or left. 'Because the other side' is not a defense for these actions. I can see looking for social constructs that foment the actions, but it in no way excuses them.
Indeed, pacwest! We debated the violence/nonviolence question continuously in the 60's-early 70's. I am in no way a pacifist and will defend myself and my neighbors but will not initiate violence. My foreign policy philosophy is pretty much the same as my personal one.
@ARM - it all depends on whether the defendant had a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily injury (which typically includes broken bones). If he indeed was fleeing a screaming mob of Antifa fascist goons, then he will more likely than not prevail. If not, if he had nothing to fear, then he can kiss his sweat ass goodbye. My bet right now is on the defense. But there is still a lot that we don't know. We shall see - and if he can't show such a reasonable fear, I would be the first to vote for conviction for the charged (presumably depraved mind/heart) 2nd Degree Murder.
As I have said before - I think that Prof Reynolds is correct, that if a screaming mob is coming at you with bats, that your best route to safety may to mow some of them down, in legal self-defense. Most likely, a car would be a better weapon than a handgun in that situation. The bats in the hands of Antifa fascist thugs are very likely legally considered deadly weapons, and when you use deadly weapons in an aggressive manner, you invite self-defense using a deadly weapon like an automobile or firearm.
Its not a bit expensive or very much out of ones way to be in a protest, or to observe one.
Especially on a weekend.
I've been at 100+ of these things in my time (mostly 1983-86, during the anti-Marcos movement), but a few here also. I was on the street during the local manifestation of the Rodney King riots, the Concord Naval Weapons Station protests, etc.
There isn't all that much to be nostalgic about..
That's not really how nostalgia works.
The Feds should be launching an investigation, alright, into the negligence of the State and City. Where were the cops?
What is being completely unsaid and untouched by the media is the City’s and State’s responsibility. I don’t know how much advance knowledge there was about this march/rally/protest/anti-protest, but i can bet it was a lot. They knew there would be trouble, especially in this Trumped up inflammatory environment. But I saw no effort to keep the two “sides” separate. This sort of thing happens in other countries all the time, that is, protesters and counter-protestors, and the authorities often know how to deal with the situation, keep them separate, and let them speak their piece. There is nothing wrong with both sides doing that.
Not having the details now is part of the problem: the media is entirely focused on putting as much of the blame on Trump as possible, and the heck with assigning responsibility to the actual participants and to the police forces. What a bunch of doofuses. Especially the governor, who used his entire news conference to lambast Trump in order (successfully) to deflect any blame on him. We’ve had racist demonstrations from time immemorial this Country, and will have them again for the foreseeable future. That’s nothing new. But letting complete chaos reign, that is the news.
Let me add that the status of the protesters killed and injured may be important in whether or not the defendant can successfully claim self-defense. If they are all protesters, then he may succeed. But if any of them are innocent bystanders, then probably not - though the woman apparently belonging to an organization with much of a century history of violence will likely help him. The key is that you cannot harm innocent bystanders in legal self-defense. But Antifa protesters are likely considered co-conspirators with the violent members of their protest, taking them out of the innocent category. We shall see.
@AReasonableMan
The person responsible for the death of that woman was the one who drove the car into her. It's not reasonable to assume this group assembled with the intention of killing someone.
The PC narrative makes it such that it's far easier for those in authority to put blame for the death and violence on this whole group based on their identity, and downplay whether the local authorities were lax in their duties.
It can have a chilling effect on any group's right to assemble--whether they are protesters or counter-protesters-- if they feel they will not receive any protection while doing so. Is it unreasonable to expect law enforcement officials to do their job and keep the peace?
And I was a Republican Party volunteer (yes, I was in the "International Brigade") in the early 90's, in the 1992 and 1994 elections.
Much of what was described re attacks from antifa were also typical of those days in SF, much of it is familiar. The spitting, the bodily fluids, hitting with sticks and placards (flags are new-ish), and simply masses of insane people screaming for blood.
Screaming for blood in a contest between Pete Wilson and Kathleen Brown, note.
I learned, first of all, that the Democratic party is a repository of the truly unstable. We had some eccentrics, but for sheer volume and power of emotional explosions you had to hand it to them. Before us, our necessary compact phalanx, was, apparently, the proper place to vent all the unhappiness of lives not so well lived.
Philippine politics, at its worst - and I have seen it at its worst, may be more fatal, but in the streets it is in no way as ugly.
My friends on Facebook are hella busy trying to doxx the tiki-torchers.
A very large proportion of the modern US right are very young. You can see that in the pictures from this protest, from Berkeley, Sacramento, etc. Though there are rugged greybeards, many are high school kids.
Yes,and this is the most worrisome aspect. These kids have no idea what Nazis were. They are poorly educated and Nazis are seen as badass because others hate and fear them.
Some commenter on facebook was alleging they were chanting about Jews.
The chant, as I understand it, was "You will not replace us."
These are the kids who join the Army to learn a trade because school was a waste of time.
DABbio said:
"This sort of thing happens in other countries all the time, that is, protesters and counter-protestors, and the authorities often know how to deal with the situation, keep them separate, and let them speak their piece. There is nothing wrong with both sides doing that. "
Exactly. I saw video of protesters and counter-protesters -- antifa/BLM types vs alt-righer types, if I remember correctly-- that took place in Boston Common a few months ago. The police kept a wide gap between the groups. The worse that happened was some shouting back and force.
Do we really know how things got so out of control in Charlottesville?
Do we really know how things got so out of control in Charlottesville?
Ask Governor McAuliffe. Ask the Charlottesville mayor and chief of police.
Do we really know how things got so out of control in Charlottesville?
Well it couldn't be the Nazis so let's rule that out.
Blogger Night Owl said...
"The person responsible for the death of that woman was the one who drove the car into her. It's not reasonable to assume this group assembled with the intention of killing someone."
Not so fast. If the person driving that car was fleeing from a mob that had been beating his car with baseball bats, the mob is at least as responsible as he is. He is at most guilty of reckless driving resulting in manslaughter. They intended violence.
Michael K says: Yes,and this is the most worrisome aspect. These kids have no idea what Nazis were. They are poorly educated and Nazis are seen as badass because others hate and fear them.
The left has its share of under-informed young people, too. Heaven knows, they don't know history. It would be nice if we could protect them all until they grow up. If they ever do. Young men need an outlet for violence. That's what sports are for.
I reiterate: We need an objective analysis of videos--preferably from surveillance cameras in the area--if we are to know and understand the sequence of events. There were more crimes committed than just vehicular homicide.
"I am just a conduit for the voice of the people of Charlottesville. It is a humble role and one I take on without expectation of reward."
I suspect that the people of Charlottesville would surround you in your car and beat you with baseball bats if they knew of your penchant for transphobic bigotry. You are not sufficiently woke.
@Jupiter 7:45
I'm saying he's responsible in the non-legal sense-- she died as a result of him hitting her. I can't make a judgement as to whether he's guilty of any crime, since I don't know enough of the facts. A jury will decide that.
"Well it couldn't be the Nazis so let's rule that out. "
Gee, have we never had Nazis protest before?
From news report:
Ms. Heyer and her friends were walking together at the protest when a car crashed into the crowd.
Ms. Blair, 27, saw it unfold.
Ms. Blair said her fiancé pushed her out of the way. She had a scrape on her arm and a bruise on her leg.
She began to look for him, and spotted his red baseball cap on the ground, covered in blood.
“It terrified me,” she said.
They two were reunited — he had a broken leg — and taken to a hospital, all the while wondering what happened to Ms. Heyer.
A detective broke the news that Ms. Heyer had been killed.
“I kind of knew and didn’t want to believe it,” she said. “When the cop told me, I cried and sank to my knees.”
While it sounds nice, the belief that people are basically good tends to lead to being taken advantage of - whether that's a scam artist going after individuals, people milking or gaming the welfare system, shady charity operations soliciting donations or corporate malfeasance against customers.
The more realistic stance is that people are capable of good, but all of us are flawed and quite capable of evil as well. Everyone can potentially be a saint, but they can also be devils too should they so choose. Hitler was not predestined to become what he was - had he merely not chosen to get involved in politics, he would likely be virtually unknown to this day. Similarly with someone more looked up to like George Washington - he had numerous opportunities to become a despot, but didn't take that path.
I don't doubt that many of the protesters on both sides in Charlottesville are lost souls in search of something. The danger with lost souls is they will frequently follow some charismatic type who seems to make sense to them. That's how groups like the KKK and Antifa and other such individual bad actors make their living, preying on such individuals.
From news report:
We never seem to get this kind of information about the victims of the left.
Thank you thank you thank you! This is almost exactly what I have been feeling too.
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