July 11, 2017

Dershowitz weighs in.





"Obviously if anyone conspired in advance with another to commit a crime – such as hacking the DNC – that would be criminal. But merely seeking to obtain the work product of a prior hack would be no more criminal than a newspaper publishing the work product of thefts such as the Pentagon Papers and the material stolen by Snowden and Manning. Moreover, the emails sent to Trump Jr. say that the dirt peddled by Veselnitskaya came from 'official documents.' No mention is made of hacking or other illegal activities. So it is unlikely that attendance at the meeting violated any criminal statute."

But, Dershowitz goes on to say, even if there is no crime, we should still find out what, if any, sort of collusion took place. If it's not criminal, it's not within the Mueller investigation, Dershowitz reminds us. He thinks there should be a "public non-partisan commission investigation," that would not be done in secret (like a grand jury), but in front of the people, giving us the chance to make our own moral and political judgments about it.

83 comments:

Sample Commenter said...

Whether or not such collusion, if it occurred, is a crime, it is clear that the American people have the right to know whether any sort of collusion –legal or illegal – took place. And, if so, what was its nature.

Yes, and if the Russians had information about illegal activity involving Hillary Clinton and Russia obtained by the Russians legally in Russia, as was claimed, clearly, the American people had a right to know.

Glenn Greenwald and Aland Dershowitz, principled liberals.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

no way, Dersh! It's illegal to do Opposition research on Hillary.

Ann Althouse said...

(Sorry about posting the same tweet twice. It's right now. Thanks for the heads up.)

pacwest said...

That should put the whole matter to rest. Thank goodness.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

We have no right to know what Hillary did with her private server. No right to know what she destroyed when she destroyed 30,000 e-mails. No right.

Hillary is above the law. It is TrUMP! TREASON! to reply to e-mails from Russians.

Sample Commenter said...

the standards do not require illegal activity.

Of course not.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

"public non-partisan commission investigation,"

or a public flogging.

rcocean said...

So, if the MSM, or anyone else, gives "dirt" on Trump's campaign to Hillary, that's OK, but if a Russian gave "dirt" on Hillary to Trump - that's somehow collusion and maybe criminal.

Okey,dokey. Glad Derschowtiz disagrees. But I'd disagree, even if he didn't.

And what actual "dirt" was given? Well, nothing as far as we can see.

Did Trump's campaign announce some "dirt" on Hillary that had a significant impact during the campaign? Not that I remember. It seems Hillary did a good job of that herself, with her friend Comey and the emails.

Etienne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
rcocean said...

So, once again in Round 137 in the never-ending MSM "trump-russia" collusion story, that so far was gotten nowhere.

But I'm sure they'll keep on digging - at least till November 2018.

Matthew Sablan said...

There should be no more secret investigations that allow democrats to leak with impunity. If there's nothing criminal, either don't investigate or do it openly.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

The chorus on the left is to continue to "investigate" Trump until he's dead.
Not that leftists are Stalinsts or anything like that.

Narayanan Subramanian said...

As overture to such a commission ... The play in
New York ... Trump/Julius Caesar should also
include a Pence lookalike as Brutus.

Sample Commenter said...

Are you aware, Once, that Meuller is limited to investigation of strictly illegal activities?

Virgil Hilts said...

So dopey Jr. mistakenly goes to a meeting hoping to get dirt on HC and gets nothing is an OMG SCANDAL!
But the Democrats conspiring with Fusion GPS and Steele to build a Russian-fed and sourced dossier of Russian disinformation (supposedly sourced from Russian government officials) to influence the election and attack Trump, and even worse to justify FISA warrants and what appears to have been an incredible number of unmaskings based on the bogus dossier -- all of that is a yawner?
Both parties suck, but the democrats are worse and more corrupt on almost every single level.

rhhardin said...

They're acting like crazy people for the ratings. They're not crazy. The audience is.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

The corrupt duo of Hillary and Podesta - they lost.

Trump has hell to pay. Be a good idea if Trump and his AG looked into the Hillary private server matter a bit more. The Clinton Foundation needs auditing as well.

Fabi said...

How many honest, intelligent and sincere liberals remain? Dershowitz, Paglia. Who did I miss? Maybe Lieberman?

rhhardin said...

Trump is the child abuse hysteria of yesteryear. Ratings. Political advancement.

steve uhr said...

The facts of the meeting are within the scope of mueller's investigatin even if we conceed that jr did nothing unlawful in connection with the meeting.

Michael K said...

the standards do not require illegal activity. Remember Benghazi?

At Benghazi people died who were entitled to protection by the US government

Hillary lied in front of the families. Then, when one objected, she implied he was insane.

Remember that, bitch ?

Alex said...

At a certain point you have to say that Trump/Russia stinks of dirty awful tactics. Maybe no crime was committed, but the American people will punish the GOP in 2018.

Michael K said...

to what extent Trump's election was influenced by Russian interference and whether Trump worked directly with the Russians to that end.

The left is insane. This is what is called Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

madAsHell said...

I barely recognized Judge Judy.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Trump Jr. releases e-mails.

Hillary deletes them, bleach bits them, and destroys all physical evidence of them so that Comey and the FBI cannot see a thing.

Hillary is transparent!

William Freiman said...

I believe if you stopped the average American and asked about today's news, their answer would be "so what".

Ralph L said...

The American people need to know precisely what the Russians tried to do and did
Transparency used to be a virtue. The problem was the Russians didn't release their RNC emails, too, so only one side became transparent. I'd be more upset if the Russians had spread lies, like urinating prostitutes.

Unknown said...

LOL! Funny stuff from Gowdy.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/11/trey-gowdy-trump-russia-240432

House Oversight Chairman Trey Gowdy lashed out at the Trump administration Tuesday over the “drip, drip” in the ongoing Russia controversy, sarcastically suggesting that officials get checked for amnesia about any contacts with Russia.

“If you had a contact with Russia, tell the special counsel about it! Don’t wait until the New York Times figures it out!” an exasperated Gowdy said in a brief interview outside the Capitol Tuesday.

"Someone needs to get everyone in a room and say, from the time you saw 'Dr. Zhivago' until the moment you drank vodka with a guy named Boris, you list every single contact with Russia," Gowdy said, referring to the 1965 movie.

Gowdy, however, maintained his long-held argument that it’s Justice Department special counsel Bob Mueller’s job — not his — to probe the matter. The chairman has said he and his Oversight panel will not interfere or overlap with Mueller in any way.

“Congress is not the place to litigate legal issues,” he said Tuesday.

Gowdy, frustration evident, suggested the Russia matter has become a distraction for Hill Republicans.

Drago said...

Alex: "At a certain point you have to say that Trump/Russia stinks of dirty awful tactics."

"Trump/Russia". "awful tactics".

Which were.....what, precisely?

Don't be shy. Just list out all those Trump/Russia dirty awful tactics. Just list them all out.

We'll wait.

Matthew Sablan said...

Per the hacking investigation, we know someone tried to get Republican files but failed.

eric said...

The moral busybodies of our time are insisting we are supposed to be outraged over Don Jr going to a meeting hoping to get the goods on Hillary's quid pro quo Uranium Russian Deal?

Oh wait, you know it was about Emails? How do you know it wasn't about the book Clinton Cash and the Uranium deal? I assume Russia would have "Official documents" on the Uranium deal, moreso than they would on stolen Emails.

IgnatzEsq said...

My hunch is, paradoxically, this issue sours more moderates who are sick of the hysteria than helps the Dems. I'm guessing that the more Russia stays in the news, the better the Republicans will do. Unless you are actually concerned that Trump Jr. non colluded by getting no information from a non governmental Russian citizen.

tim maguire said...

In our brave new world, our investigations are built around the seriousness of the charges, not the seriousnes of the evidence, of which there need not be any.

I generally think of Dersch as proncipled, but I don't see any reasonable suspicion yet. It's not illegal to take a meeting. It's not illegal to do opposition research (!) And it's not illegal to talk to foreign nationals.

Three rights don't make a wrong.

tcrosse said...

I wonder if Dad took Donald Jr. to the woodshed for this, or whether it would have been the first time he did.

Earnest Prole said...

If it's not criminal, it's not within the Mueller investigation.

see naïveté

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

The media spread the Benghazi lie, wholesale.

our media is a total joke.

Khesanh 0802 said...

The consolation is that a Republican will be president for the next 3.5 years and perhaps beyond. Will Trump figure out how to defeat this BS? I have high hopes. Will people in the red states that voted for Trump be more or less angered by the Dems attempt to nullify their vote? I suspect more.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

It was the video

It was Trump and the Russians.

IgnatzEsq said...

As an aside, I see Benghazi referenced in several of these chains. One thing I never see, but think I should be seeing, is that Benghazi only happened because Obama, on the advice of Clinton, and without congressional approval bombed the government of Libya out of existence for no discernible reason. That destabilization was a direct cause, meaning Hillary can and should shoulder much of the blame. Between the Libya bombing and the Iraq war vote I couldn't ever vote for Hillary.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

M"Someone needs to get everyone in a room and say, from the time you saw 'Dr. Zhivago' until the moment you drank vodka with a guy named Boris, you list every single contact with Russia," Gowdy said...


That's funny because it's true.

It's OK for Obama and wink and nod while Putin moves into the Ukraine, and blows up passenger jets.... but OMGOMGOMGOMG! Trump and Russia colluded and embarrassed Hillary with her own filth. How dare they! Treason!

Achilles said...

Usually the stalinists do the purging.

It is high time they got a taste of their own medicine.

Birkel said...

Is Alan Dershowitz now a Republican?

The Leftist insiders and hangers on do not understand how this hysteria looks to the middle. I am free to type this because I know the message won't be delivered to anybody who might influence Democrats to temper their current behavior.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Who killed Seth Rich? Anyone in the media digging?
No? I wonder why?

Otto said...

Agree with Dershowitz analysis. Nothing in the emails, but certainly begs the question, what was follow-on actions of the Trump team. On that line their is nothing in the tapped phone calls that was investigated by Obama administration that showed any collusion. So where can there be collusion? Secret meetings? emails?Certainly nothing in Tjr released emails indicate a desire for future information.
Also the only evidence that the Russian's wanted Trump to win is Goldstone's word. How did he know that? Certainly nothing in the Tjr emails indicates previous discussions of Russian collusion. Nothing in the emails for follow on meetings. Why did he lie to Tjr and who was he working for? I think Goldstone should be brought here and put under government protection and immediately interrogated or i fear he will be found dead.

Hagar said...

Once again there is a dodgy Brit at the bottom of the story.
Is Her Majesty's Government colluding with the Democratic Party in America to influence their elections over there?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Gusty Winds said...

What is most amazing is that anyone would believe that Florida, NC, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Ohio were all won by Russian interference. We're rural voters really twitter tuned to Podesta's emails? I don't think so. The results in retrospect are less surprising than in real time. Especially Wisconsin if you've followed it's political flow and change the last six years.

If the pattern repeats in 2018, the media and the Dems are overplaying their hand with Russia and will not adjust in time. The question really is which type of GOP candidates will win vulnerable Trump red state senate seats. Will they be pro-Trump drain the swamp candidates, or Paul Ryan all talk party liners who need GOP donor money.

Pianoman said...

Brookzene, Inga, hardest hit.

rhhardin said...

They're not trying to help the dems. They're after ratings with the one audience that will tune in to hysteria. Eyeballs sold to advertisers.

Dems are just free-riding on that business necessity of the media.

In particular, it won't end. The best you can do is what Trump is accomplishing, take the media out of serious national debate. Leave them to their hysteria audience and do serious talk elsewhere.

Hence the turn off in the middle. The media is out of the debate.

Gusty Winds said...

If Putin did intend to destabilize our democracy, Trump is not his pawn. The feverish attempt to overturn a national election by the media and the Dems is the most destabilizing threat. Who is giving Putin a bigger footprint on the world stage, Trump or CNN?

Trump pisses off the left and the entrenched establishment more than wire hangers pissed off Joan Crawford.

Cacimbo Cacimbo said...

So it is very important that we spend millions investigating a non-crime. This is exactly why the public hates DC. Continuing this Russia charade is a loser for both parties.

tcrosse said...

One trembles to think what the Russians could have dug up about Hillary that's any worse than what we already know.

Drago said...

I sense that Alex is busily creating his laundry list of "Trump/Russia" "awful tactics" with which to regale us.

I for one cannot wait to read it!

Thanks in advance Alex!

Gusty Winds said...

rhhardin has a good point above. The out to get Trump media has to feed their audience as it is now much smaller and ideologically targeted than decades ago. They may be out of the debate.

Supposedly Joe Scarborough will announce on Colbert tonight that he's left the Republican Party. Who really cares. The only guy who beats Joe's golem like thirst for the TV camera is Charlie Sykes.

Drago said...

tcrosse: "I wonder if Dad took Donald Jr. to the woodshed for this, or whether it would have been the first time he did"

If you've never seen Donalds woodshed, you are missing something spectacular!! Fantastic views from each window! Marble inlaid tile throughout. Magnificent, really. Oh, did I forget to mention that Donalds woodshed is 11,000 sqft, multi-level with voice-actuated robot servants?

You will be glad to hear that none of the wood in the shed is imported. American wood only baby!

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

How much tax payer money can the corruptocrat party waste chasing butt-hurt Hillary Podesta loss?

Until we all feel the pain.

Gusty Winds said...

I'm not buying this recent news that Pence is plotting like LBJ to distance himself from Russia. So what if he's out courting GOP donor money. Isn't that why Trump hired him?

Trump walked away from the G20 with a ceasefire agreement after meeting with Putin. If Hillary were elected, we'd be dog fighting Russian jets over Syria enforcing an unsupported UN and NATO backed no fly zone.

Thank God the Russians helped Trump win.

Cacimbo Cacimbo said...

"I am already receiving messages from leaders, and I am having foreign leaders ask if they can endorse me to stop Donald Trump," Clinton said during a CNN Democratic forum.

Where is the investigation????

John Taylor said...

I think I'll vote with my feet soon

Hagar said...

There is also a great deal of hypocrisy in this hullabaloo as the United States is only second to the late Soviet Union in being infamous for "interfering" in other nation's innternal affairs, including elections. Not just diplomatically either - sometimes we have sent the marines.

Birkel said...

Don't tease us, John Taylor.

Richard Dolan said...

It would be interesting to know who leaked the emails about Trump Jr.'s meeting to the NYT. The. Players who had the emails were a small group, and there's no one who would obviously gain by leaking them. it's not likely that Trump Jr. leaked them himself, and his business partner in England who first proposed the meeting had nothing to gain and potentially something to lose by making it all public. Same with the Russian attorney who does sound like she wants any part of this.

Could it be that, in the course of hacking the Dems in 2016, the Russians also hacked Team Trump, and are now colluding with the NYT in an attempt to take down or really weaken Trump?

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Hey, that's what I said!
HoodlumDoodlum this afternoon, Alan D tonight!
Thanks for the backup Professor Dershowitz.

Cacimbo Cacimbo said...

@Richard Dolan Awesome theory, but no way is Putin that much of a political genius. This is just entrenched DC fighting back against the invasion of common sense.

Birkel said...

To be fair, HoodlumDoodlum, all fair minded readers of the reported events came to the same collusion.

Politically, this seems like a two day story.

n.n said...

He went to the meeting expecting something. Speculation about motives based on inference is out of order.

If there is no baby, and we are now in the third trimester, then submerge the witches, and warlocks, in a vat of sanctimonious water, and call it a day.

Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...

public non-partisan commission investigation

HA! Good one Derschy! You really had me going for a second there.

n.n said...

Benghazi, an active war zone, and a known abortion field targeting native people and Americans, too.

Where was the Commander in Chief?

The Secretary of State who Chose, conceived, and aborted?

Does the Church have jurisdiction in Africa, Asia, and Eastern Europe?

Henry said...

"public non-partisan commission investigation," that would not be done in secret (like a grand jury), but in front of the people, giving us the chance to make our own moral and political judgments about it.

Sounds like something the media could do.

And lo, they are already doing it.

I'm very tired of the jonesing for a special prosecutor. No one asking for legal prosecution of some Trump to be named later cares about a careful finding of facts. They're just wishing for a Hail Mary.

Unknown said...

This is absolute bullshit and the republicans should refuse to play.

CStanley said...

I was with him until the call for yet another investigation.

The problem with all political investigations now is the complete breakdown in trust. Congreess, DOJ, Independnt counsel...all operating with partisan agendas,

What we do have though is media that act as prosecutors and defense attorneys, depending on which political party is under suspicion. The best we can do is sift through that and then give our verdict in the voting booth.

Clyde said...

Oh, yeah, Trump's in the Russians' pocket. I knew it for sure when he signed the executive order banning fracking and the one banning all energy exports from the U.S., to help his Russian buddies get oil prices back up. Sure, we're all paying $4 a gallon for gas now, but what do you expect from Putin's stooge? I also knew he was Putin's buttboy when he stopped the sale of air defense missiles to Poland and when he told NATO that they were on their own from now on. Yup, Trump's doing everything the Russkies wanted!

David said...

A non partisan commission?

Not in my lifetime, or that of Dershowitz.

It's come to that. Nobody trusts anybody.

Bay Area Guy said...

Unlike most dipshits on the Left, Dershowitz and Jonathan Turley are the most insightful and honorable on this issue. Required reading, I'd say.

On the right, Andy McCarthy and former AG Michael Mukasey are the most sound and reliable.

Most everything else is noise, fog and obfuscation.

Call me when someone -- anyone -- is indicted.

William said...

She's attractive in a milfy way. Has anyone developed a sex angle yet? I haven't been paying much attention to this scandal, If you can even call it a scandal. Maybe if she was having an affair with someone in the Trump organization, the scandal would generate some interest outside of CNN circles. Wouldn't it be great if she and Seth were an item?

Otto said...

Actually my comments about Goldstone also apply to the the russian women lawyer. In fact i would think that the NYTs would be frantically trying to interview these two. Just heard Tjr say there were no follow up conversation or emails with Goldstone and that he is willing to testify.
Well this is a good test for Trump because he can put the nail in the leftist media's coffin if no evidence is found. He likes challenges and he is being challenged. But while this is going on I hope he is still resourceful enough to get his agenda enacted.

walter said...

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...no way, Dersh! It's illegal to do Opposition research on Hillary.
--
There it is..oppo research. Oppo research..unrequited.
LOCK. HIM. UP!

hombre said...

Interesting how Goldstone, who wrote the sensationalized emails, has disappeared from the stories. Could it be that he is not credible; that he had no way of knowing that the blather in his email was true; that Russia has no "Crown Prosecutors"; that he doesn't occur as a believable agent for the Russian government?

No evidence will be produced that the lawyer was an agent of the Russian government. No evidence will be produced that Junior, et al, actually believed she was an agent of the Russian government. No evidence will be produced that she provided negative information about Hillary. Only a moron would argue that asking the lawyer if Hillary had committed a crime was soliciting an in kind contribution.

Junior's enthusiasm is easily attributable to getting something on Hillary having nothing to do with Russia as source or support.

A first year defense attorney destroys the case.

Sessions should get off his ass and start indicting Democrats like Clapper, Rice and Hillary who have actually committed crimes.

Bob Loblaw said...

The problem was the Russians didn't release their RNC emails, too, so only one side became transparent.

That alone should be enough to prompt one to vote Republican. The Russians tried to hack the RNC and didn't get anywhere. Because the Republicans aren't incompetent.

Bob Loblaw said...

She's attractive in a milfy way. Has anyone developed a sex angle yet?

They'll never top Anna Chapman.

Matthew Sablan said...

Again: If negative information on Clinton is something of value that is illegal for foreign countries to offer to American politicians... what do you call:

1. Promising Russia more flexibility to back off during an American election? That's a quid pro quo, directly and plainly offered (and clearly accepted as Russia DID back off, and Obama laughed at the idea they were a geopolitical foe, "The 1980s called.") If this meeting is illegal collusion, that hot mic is even more damning.

2. Hiring a British national to create the piss dossier.

3. Getting Ukranian nationals to search their intelligence agencies for damning evidence on Trump.

4. Germany shutting down much of their city to give Obama a photo op at the Bradenburg gate.

If this meeting is "something of value," those four things are much, much more so -- and in all of them, the campaign clearly offered and received "something of value."

Sample Commenter said...

Collusion is like the "missing heat" climate scientists say is always bottled up out of reach of temperature sensors, but they are certain that it's there.

Lewis Wetzel said...

The FBI and the Mainstream Media both seem to believe that they have veto power over the political choices made by the American people. This would mean that we are not a republic, as far as the MSM and the FBI are concerned. I wonder how they justify their belief?

Ima anon said...

Hmm the Russian lawyer has Hilary contacts and anti trump bona fides as per her social media. Why would she dish dirt on Hilary?
Was it a setup or a trap? Magic eight ball says ask again later when more info comes out