May 24, 2017

"Two homeless men... Steve Jones and Chris Parker, were in the area to sleep and beg for money."

Steve Jones: "We had to pull nails out of children's faces."

Chris Parker: "I saw a little girl… she had no legs. I wrapped her in one of the merchandise T-shirts and I said 'where’s your mum and daddy?'"

From "The two homeless heroes who helped Manchester attack victims."

IN THE COMMENTS: Paul Zrimsek attacks the very poorly written headline:
"The two homeless heroes who helped Manchester attack victims."

So it wasn't ISIS after all?

You'd think a place the size of Manchester would be capable of attacking a bunch of little girls without the aid of vagrants.

172 comments:

traditionalguy said...

Christian culture encounters the work of allah's warriors. And the Media runs the warrior's name 24/7 as a memorial but these two real men are not mentioned.

AllenS said...

There's nothing else for the people of England to do except pull nails out of children's faces. They've been disarmed for a long, long time. This is not the last bombing that they'll have to endure.

rhhardin said...

Someday when the little girl is a fierce feminist she'll show compassion to one of these old men.

Bob Boyd said...

The cop in the video said they won't tolerate hate.

Amadeus 48 said...

These men merit praise for their good actions. Whether they are "heroes" is unknown. The UK red-top press is a full employment scheme for cliches.

MadisonMan said...

Bob Boyd, I was also struck by that quote. I didn't listen to the video, but I wonder at whom is the message aimed?

AllenS said...

MadMan and Bob, that message was aimed at people like me. Bring it!

Rene Saunce said...

I'm just wondering --if the blast happened inside the venue, how did these homeless guys end up so close to where the victims were?

Darrell said...

So Chris Parker found a girl whose legs had just been blown off and he just wrapped her in one of the merchandise T-shirts and I said 'where’s your mum and daddy?" I would have tried to stop the bleeding, myself. Tourniquets, at least.

Rene Saunce said...

It's best to agonize over the supposed "backlash" than to mention this mass murder was perpetrated in the name of Islam.

Big Mo smiles.

Kate said...

1) The homeless are often mentally ill. That doesn't mean they're lacking in compassion and human sympathy. Bums are people, too!
2) The first responders at a tragedy are the homeless. I'm not sure what that says about a society, but I don't think it's ideal.
3) Thank God someone with tenderness cared for the dying. It's a heartbreaking situation.

AllenS said...

Rene, read the 2nd paragraph of the article.

Jupiter said...

Bob Boyd said...
"The cop in the video said they won't tolerate hate."

That means "Get used to this, we expect a lot more of the same."

Bob Boyd said...

"I wonder at whom is the message aimed?"

He was talking to the people of Manchester and was concerned about backlash. He reminded them the diversity of their community was what made it strong.
Maybe Manchester was once a weak community saved by Britain's immigration policy, I don't know.

Oso Negro said...

The appetite of contemporary Western Society for pathos and platitude will surely be the study of future historians. Assuming that the capacity for absorbing horror is not endless, what are the practical possibilities? Entire western nations convert to Islam and adopt Sharia?
The practice of Islam is outlawed, the mosques are demolished, and the remaining adherents are tracked down and imprisoned? Massive deportation of "South Asians"?

Bay Area Guy said...

It's a touching side story, but, ultimately, it's a distraction from the issue that needs to be confronted: a group of radical Muslims, either "homegrown terrorists" or immigrants, want to murder and maim your citizens. What are you going to do stop it?

If you are wedded to the politically correct value system where you prioritze multiculturalism and shudder at anything that can remotely be seen as discrimination or, heaven forbid, islamaphobia, then the odds are you will do very little, but tolerate 3 or 4 such attacks per year.

Leftism is the great enabler of these terrible misdeeds.

Crimso said...

Strangely, I read that as "sleep and beg for mercy." Twice.

traditionalguy said...

The Brits are going to have arrest the entire Island and close down the Newspapers. Otherwise the murderers for allah's glory gang will get their feelings hurt.

Best take yesterday was that the Brit Government and Royals live in an armed guard bubble, so they only want to suck up to the Arab Sheiks. The rest of the English are lambs for the slaughter so the Muslim's can live happily ever after in their new conquest.

tcrosse said...

Maybe Manchester was once a weak community saved by Britain's immigration policy, I don't know.

No, it wasn't, and no, you don't.

Michael said...

Bay Area Guy

Have a look at the tweets in response to Morrisey's statement about this terror. There is no guessing as to the sympathies of many in the UK. By stating the obvious Morrrisey is vilified. Cunt appears to be the common description of him.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rene Saunce said...

Allen S - The homeless guys were in the foyer of the venue. I read that.
Is that where the blast took place? I'm not an expert on this venue. Trying to understand how the blast happened in the venue, and a person without legs ended up in the foyer?

That's all.

traditionalguy said...

Meanwhile the Argentine Jesuit playing Pope pushes World Governance for God and Globe.

Trump has got them all in a panic just by speaking truth to deception.

Laslo Spatula said...

From CNN: "Ariana Grande suspends tour following Manchester terror attack"

The Terrorists Have Won.

Of course this reads as snark, but is it not true?

It is a shame The Crusaders are no longer touring.

I am Laslo.

Michael said...

Allen S at 7:45

Yes. Me too.

Bob Boyd said...

tcrosse said...
"No, it wasn't, and no, you don't."

I was being sarcastic.

wildswan said...

The attack happened in a public part of the arena, a foyer exiting to the street, where children were waiting to be picked up by their parents and where T-shirt sellers could circulate. And bombers. Unlike bombers homeless people are not devoid of humanity, they just can't stay at jobs.

mockturtle said...

The cop in the video said they won't tolerate hate.

Right. Like the recently passed Canadian law making Islamophobia a criminal offense, hate will not be tolerated in Manchester. The thought police will be scanning your brains day and night for those telltale ripples of hatred. Do we ever stop and consider how fatuous our language has become?

mockturtle said...

Laslo contends: The Terrorists Have Won.

No, no. Trump insists they are "evil losers", so there's no way they can win. Ever.

Rene Saunce said...

If you tolerate Islamic terror, you tolerate hate.

Bob Boyd said...

Diversity is our strength...well...that and troops on the streets.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4535388/PM-says-terror-threat-level-critical.html

320Busdriver said...

Sadly, via M Steyn, yesterdays's headline from The Independent.

"There's only one way Britain should respond to attacks such as Manchester. That is by carrying on exactly as before"

Yeah, that'll work out well.

Laslo Spatula said...

"There's only one way Britain should respond to attacks such as Manchester. That is by carrying on exactly as before"

When your own self-regard outweighs the lives of others.

I am Laslo.

Ann Althouse said...

"I'm just wondering --if the blast happened inside the venue, how did these homeless guys end up so close to where the victims were?"

1. The bomber didn't enter the arena. He was just outside, waiting for the mothers and daughters to stream out.

2. The homeless men had chosen the same place, targeting the same people, vulnerable women and girls. They were begging for money.

Sebastian said...

So, what will the evil losers think of a people whose heroes are the homeless and who won't "tolerate hate"?

Brookzene said...

It's impossible to completely protect ourselves. Even if the Islamist terrorists were to disappear tomorrow some other fanatical group would take up their strategies.

Mike said...

Stories like this were part of the reason Mr. Rogers was trending on Twitter after the suicide bombing in Manchester, and a response to the question, "What do we tell the children affected by this attack?" Of course, Mark Steyn sees it as an evasion of the proper response and harbinger of less music in the air going forward.

TestTube said...

From Robert Heinlein's speech, James Forrestal Memorial lecture series at the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, on April 5, 1973

"In my home town sixty years ago when I was a child, my mother and father used to take me and my brothers and sisters out to Swope Park on Sunday afternoons. It was a wonderful place for kids, with picnic grounds and lakes and a zoo. But a railroad line cut straight through it.

One Sunday afternoon a young married couple were crossing these tracks. She apparently did not watch her step, for she managed to catch her foot in the frog of a switch to a siding and could not pull it free. Her husband stopped to help her.

But try as they might they could not get her foot loose. While they were working at it, a tramp showed up, walking the ties. He joined the husband in trying to pull the young woman’s foot loose. No luck —

Out of sight around the curve a train whistled. Perhaps there would have been time to run and flag it down, perhaps not. In any case both men went right ahead trying to pull her free. . .and the train hit them.

The wife was killed, the husband was mortally injured and did later, the tramp was killed — and testimony showed that neither man made the slightest effort to save himself.

The husband’s behavior was heroic. . .but what we expect of a husband toward his wife: his right, and his proud privilege, to die for his woman. But what of this nameless stranger? Up to the very last second he could have jumped clear. He did not. He was still trying to save this woman he had never seen before in his life, right up to the very instant the train killed him. And that’s all we’ll ever know about him.

THIS is how a man dies.

This is how a MAN. . .lives!"

Mike said...

The attack happened in a public part of the arena, a foyer exiting to the street...

Actually the foyer exits to the train station, all part of the same building. Like Althouse indicated, this is also an area where panhandling takes place because it is a commuter stop as well as a 21,000-seat arena.

Valentine Smith said...

Western civ is in desperate need of some renegades. And they need to start killing the families of the bombers.

exiledonmainstreet said...

It’s really astounding how, in a few generations, the Left has managed to bully and brainwash people into going against their own natural instincts. Marxism is a universalist creed and yet even the Soviets found love of country to be a motivator during “The Great Patriotic War.” It’s unnatural for people to loathe their own skin color, their own gender, their own nation and to shrink from that most basic of impulses – self-defense. Oh, I know how the left has used slavery, colonialism and Nazism as bludgeons to convince people that Western Civilization should inspire shame and guilt. It’s still startling to me how quickly and thoroughly their message was internalized by so many people.

Bob Ellison said...

mockturtle, I think I understand your comments. Plain language is politically incorrect.

Note that the former professor herself said above, "2. The homeless men had chosen the same place, targeting the same people, vulnerable women and girls. They were begging for money."

That's plain. The guy on video even says it himself. You couldn't talk that way on the streets of San Francisco.

Brookzene said...

"Western civ is in desperate need of some renegades. And they need to start killing the families of the bombers."

And become the same kind of murderers? Never! Better to die.

Rene Saunce said...

8:33 - Ann
Thank you. I did not know that.

Bob Ellison said...

We can't stop teaching, repeating, yelling that freedom of conscience is the most important liberty. This is a strange time in America, the birthplace of true freedom of conscience.

Rene Saunce said...

**I was under the wrong impression that the blast happened inside the venue itself.

rhhardin said...

Where are the stories of Manchester outrage in the Muslim community.

Drago said...

Brookzene: "It's impossible to completely protect ourselves."

Strawman.

Brookzene: "Even if the Islamist terrorists were to disappear tomorrow some other fanatical group would take up their strategies."

Sad and pathetic and demonstrably false.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Brookzene said...
"Western civ is in desperate need of some renegades. And they need to start killing the families of the bombers."

And become the same kind of murderers? Never! Better to die.

5/24/17, 8:47 AM

Well then, how about just not letting any more Muslims in, my noble progressive Braveheart?

The longer you ignore the problem, the bloodier the denouement will be - for either us or them.

exiledonmainstreet said...


Brookzene: "It's impossible to completely protect ourselves."

As someone pointed out to Inga yesterday, do you refuse to use birth control because it's not 100% effective?

Brookzene said...

"Sad and pathetic and demonstrably false."

WTF? You just want to degrade every comment I make? So what is "sad and pathetic and demonstrably false" about it? I'll wait.

Michael K said...

He was just outside, waiting for the mothers and daughters to stream out.

These areas with people waiting for something have been targets for bombers for some time. Several years ago, a suicide bomber killed dozens of police recruits as they stood in a queue, waiting at an entrance.

A suicide bomber killed at least 33 people at an army recruitment center in northern Afghanistan on Monday, underscoring the vulnerability of Afghan security forces as they struggle to assume more responsibility for safeguarding the country from Taliban insurgents.

The Taliban took responsibility for the attack, the insurgency's second strike on an army recruitment center in the city of Kunduz in 12 weeks.

The attacker walked up to the main gate and detonated his explosives. Most of those killed were Afghans volunteering to join the army, though four children and several Afghan soldiers were also among the dead.

The blast injured at least 42.


Baggage claim areas are also vulnerable with little security.

A gunman opened fire Friday in the baggage claim area of the Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport, killing five people, injuring at least eight more and sending thousands of travelers into panic as he wrenched open another wound in the American psyche.

The chaos began in the Delta Air Lines baggage claims in Terminal 2 just before 1 p.m. By 2 p.m., authorities had their suspect in custody, a 26-year-old discharged Army National Guardsman who flew in from Alaska stopping first in Minnesota.


That shooter was not a Muslim terrorist but it will be adopted eventually, I'm sure.

Gatherings of people will be targeted.

In Britain, the police are determined to keep anyone from saying anything about Islamic terror. There have been prosecutions.

Angel-Dyne said...

302Busdriver: Sadly, via M Steyn, yesterdays's headline from The Independent.

"There's only one way Britain should respond to attacks such as Manchester. That is by carrying on exactly as before"

Yeah, that'll work out well.


"Carry on" was once an invocation of the virtues of a stoic and capable people - the "spirit of the Blitz". But it's meaningless if detached from its larger context - the British were "carrying on" on the home front while they were mercilessly prosecuting war against their enemies on every other front, a war they meant to win, or die trying.

The phrase has long since decayed into the vapid sentimentalism of a beaten people. It's grotesque to hear them invoke it after every single attack in justification of a shameful passivity.

320Busdriver said...

Well then, how about just not letting any more Muslims in, my noble progressive Braveheart?

Steyn has been correct on this for years now imho.

How many suicide bombers have blown up citizens of the Czech Republic or Poland?

And why is that? Therein lies the answer.

Seeing Red said...

I know! They can rename this "the Troubles II."

And they can raise their kids to be like New Yorkers who expect to get mugged. That's just the price to pay to live there.

Just expect to get blown up.

It's like being fed to the lions for sport all over again.

Valentine Smith said...

Children. Children! Never ever fuck with children.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Brookzene: "Even if the Islamist terrorists were to disappear tomorrow some other fanatical group would take up their strategies."

Tell me, what other "fanatical group" out there are you thinking of? Will Roman Catholics start bombing concerts to force people to accept the primacy of the Pope? Contrary to what ISIS says, Pope Frankie doesn't seem like Crusader material. The Hindus? The Southern Baptists?

Which other religious group has the modern day propensity for violence, the global reach, and the financial backing that Islamic terrorist groups do?

It's true that leftist radicals and anarchists have a history of terror and violence that goes back many decades, but the Weather Underground and Baader-Meinhoff group were not creating havoc on a world wide scale.

So what hypothetical group would commit this violence if the Muslims weren't around?

You know, it's hard to believe, but I actually remember a time when people weren't afraid of getting blown up when they went to a concert or flew someplace or walked down the street in Nice or London. Magical times, they were.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Brookzene said...
"Western civ is in desperate need of some renegades. And they need to start killing the families of the bombers."

And become the same kind of murderers? Never! Better to die.
5/24/17, 8:47 AM


If someone drops a bomb on your mother, go and drop two bombs on his mother. –George Orwell.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Tell me, what other "fanatical group" out there are you thinking of?

Black Bloc? Melissa Click? C.C. Fair?

Fernandinande said...

TestTube said...
From Robert Heinlein's speech, ..
...
THIS is how a man dies.


Pointlessly and accomplishing nothing.

This is how a MAN. . .lives!"

What a romantic little story. Do you think it was based on something that really happened?

Suicide Squeeze said...

"We will not tolerate hate" We will instead, hate intolerance. We look in the mirror and do not recognize the face staring back at us.

Everybody hates with some notable exceptions. Currently the right hates those who seek to destroy freedom. The left hates those who hate those who seek to destroy freedom.

Those who claim to worship "diversity" defend the people who most hate diversity and eschew the people who reject the type of "diversity" designed to divide everyone. The left appears to be schizophrenic.

Brookzene said...

"Magical times, they were."

They are magical times to us now. It doesn't have to be a religious group to resort to these tactics. Remember the appearance of Communism - it was sudden, and they were prepared to use every barbaric tactic they could under Lenin.

Some group we may never have conceived of will most certainly appear on the horizon and will be prepared to use the tactics of the Islamist terrorists. That's the way humans work. They will reach for every extreme they can. Not all of them, but it only takes some.

Unless we are prepared to set up a police state such as the world has never known (and even then they will probably manage some penetration), or terrorist tactics evolve to an even worse magnitude, you will never be rid of this kind of terror, even without Islamist extremists.

What wouldn't McVey have done if it was in his reach?

Bad Lieutenant said...

Ferdy, you're in a dark place today. Don't believe in such things? Happens every day. Orwell wrote:

"When it comes to the pinch, human beings are heroic. Women face childbed and the scrubbing brush, revolutionaries keep their mouths shut in the torture chamber, battleships go down with their guns still firing when their decks are awash."

exiledonmainstreet said...

Tell me, what other "fanatical group" out there are you thinking of?

Black Bloc? Melissa Click? C.C. Fair?

5/24/17, 9:17 AM

Oh, believe me, I have no doubt the radical left would happily set off nail bombs and run over deplorable Trump voters.

I just have a hard time imagining that Womyn's Studies profs and millennial twinks would be all that good at it. Billy Ayers' bombmaking skills sent his girlfriend into outer orbit.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

These men merit praise for their good actions. Whether they are "heroes" is unknown.

Yes. What they did is praiseworthy, very much so. Hopefully the attention paid to their actions will help them get a better life.

However, the careless throwing around of the word "heroes" has become something of an epidemic. Every time someone does something that would be brave and not that much out of the ordinary for a normal human being, the media goes over the top in slathering the word HERO all over everything.

Not everyone WILL answer the call to aid people. Many will run and hide. Others have the instinctual, unthinking ability to respond in an emergency. You will never know how YOU will respond until put into that situation. Is it instinctual? Is it learned? Genetic?

So while these two men deserve much praise and did bravely respond to those who need help, we really should be more circumspect in our responses.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

"Western civ is in desperate need of some renegades. And they need to start killing the families of the bombers."

Brookzene.....And become the same kind of murderers? Never! Better to die.

Good. You first if that is how you want it. Get out of OUR way.

mockturtle said...

mockturtle, I think I understand your comments. Plain language is politically incorrect.

Bob, the point I was trying to make is that the notion of not tolerating an emotion, like hate, is asinine. While we're at it, let's outlaw fear and jealousy. Like the Canadians criminalizing a phobia. How ridiculous, and yet so widely accepted.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"What wouldn't McVey have done if it was in his reach?"

McVeigh was a genuine lone wolf (well almost a lone wolf). He belonged to and inspired no movement. I'm not talking about individuals who "go postal" (as we used to say) when they have a real or imagined grievance.

That is very different from Islamic terrorism. And fighting back does not mean setting up a police state. In fact, not fighting back is what is deceasing our freedom. Rather than profile, we will pat down little old Lutheran grandmas at the airport. England is blanketed with security cameras, which don't seem to be much of a deterrent. The neighborhoods in Europe where women are not safe unless they wear headscarves are increasing. The freedom to criticize Islam has been taken away in many of those countries. There are people in this country who want to take that freedom away from us as well.

FullMoon said...

Oh, believe me, I have no doubt the radical left would happily set off nail bombs and run over deplorable Trump voters.

I just have a hard time imagining that Womyn's Studies profs and millennial twinks would be all that good at it. Billy Ayers' bombmaking skills sent his girlfriend into outer orbit.
5/24/17, 9:23 AM


Internet valuable resource for tutorials re explosive devices.
BTW, why is Bill Ayers, et al, past not being publicized these days. Him and his gang do not deserve the "respect" they are given.

Drago said...

Brookzene: "WTF? You just want to degrade every comment I make? So what is "sad and pathetic and demonstrably false" about it? I'll wait."

These extraordinary events did not exist across the entire West until the rise of Islamic radicalism even after taking into account the Soviet funded terrorist groups of the 60s/70s (Baader Meinhof, Red Army Faction, Red Brigades et al) and the The IRA in Britain was it's own special case (although also supported by the Soviets).

We don't see this level of violence in those nation's in Europe that have limited Muslim immigration.

The correlation is clear. So clear that to deny it demonstrates abject ignorance or intelectual dishonesty on a massive scale.

Brookzene said...

Doesn't have to be a group. It just has to be a persistent number of lone wolves committing acts of terrorism for whatever reason they want.

This kind of terrorism won't permanently go away now even if the Islamist terrorists gave it up.

Brookzene said...

"These extraordinary events did not exist across the entire West until the rise of Islamic radicalism even after taking into account the Soviet funded terrorist groups of the 60s/70s"

It's just the tactics of terrorism evolving. It will continue to evolve.

Paul Zrimsek said...

The two homeless heroes who helped Manchester attack victims

So it wasn't ISIS after all?

You'd think a place the size of Manchester would be capable of attacking a bunch of little girls without the aid of vagrants.

Bay Area Guy said...

The Muslim terrorists are coddled by two groups: (1) peaceful Muslims and (2) western leftists.

That is all.

exiledonmainstreet said...

This kind of terrorism won't permanently go away now even if the Islamist terrorists gave it up.

5/24/17, 9:44 AM


The whole idea that terrorism will never end completely so we can't take logical and sensible steps to reduce the occurrence of terrorist acts is bizarre and defeatist.

Brookzene said...

Well, what's the Donald been doing to stop ISIS? He's been President for four months now.

Brookzene said...

"The whole idea that terrorism will never end completely so we can't take logical and sensible steps to reduce the occurrence of terrorist acts is bizarre and defeatist. "

Who said that?

exiledonmainstreet said...

"We don't see this level of violence in those nation's in Europe that have limited Muslim immigration."

It's obvious.

Brookzene will continue to argue that 2 + 2 does not equal 4, however.

FullMoon said...

Islamist have taken over a city of 200,000 in the Philippines. Beheadings, burning down structures, fighting the army,
Lone wolf not gonna do that.

mockturtle said...

The two homeless heroes who helped Manchester attack victims

So it wasn't ISIS after all?

You'd think a place the size of Manchester would be capable of attacking a bunch of little girls without the aid of vagrants.


Good observation, Paul. Another ambiguous headline. ;-)

Brookzene said...

"Brookzene will continue to argue that 2 + 2 does not equal 4, however."

Restate my conclusion, word for word. Just copy and paste.

Drago said...

FullMoon: "Islamist have taken over a city of 200,000 in the Philippines. Beheadings, burning down structures, fighting the army,
Lone wolf not gonna do that."

Hey man, according to Brookzene if it wasn't the muslims taking over towns and beheading, sexually enslaving girls and young children, female genital mutilation, torturing and murdering gays and apostates and Christians, somebody else would be! Like, methodists or something.

And besides, you can never stop ALL violence, so why bother doing anything?

Best to just #CarryOnAsIfNothingHasHappened, #BewareOfIslamophobia and #VoteLeftForIncreasedImmigration!

mockturtle said...

Full Moon reports: Islamist have taken over a city of 200,000 in the Philippines. Beheadings, burning down structures, fighting the army,

I read that Mindanao has imposed martial law.

Drago said...

mockturtle: "I read that Mindanao has imposed martial law"

I've no doubt Brookzene is very very very disappointed with them for doing so.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Well, what's the Donald been doing to stop ISIS? He's been President for four months now.

Oooooooh....four whole months and he hasn't solved the world's problems. Not even the most rabid Trump supporter expects this kind of superhuman action. /facepalm

Well.....since he has spent most of his time battling the Democrats, trying to install his own Cabinet, his own officials, attempting to stop the leaks of information and being besieged on all fronts by the media. Stymied by the judiciary in taking steps to protect the United States by attempting to temporarily halt immigration from terrorist hot spots and attempting to actually enforce our existing immigration laws..... he has done

This

Btw...Brook.....FYI, Trump is not the President of the World. He can't control what Britain decides to to. If THEY want to join a suicide pact and let ISIS in, allow themselves to be overrun with Muslim immigrants who do NOT mean well to the people of Britain, that is their choice.

If Germany insists on going down the path of destruction...just what do you expect Trump to do about it? I mean anything that you won't whine about that is.

Brookzene said...

"And besides, you can never stop ALL violence, so why bother doing anything?"

Who said that? So far you guys are arguing against a conclusion that NOBODY advocated - and declaring yourselves...winning!

Up your game or get lost.

Drago said...

Brookzene: "Up your game or get lost."

Hmmm.

What a very "Chuck-like" thing to write.

Fen said...

What a weird remark. Slip of bias?

"The homeless men had chosen the same place as terrorists. Targeting the same people as the terrorists, vulnerable women and girls."

Hey Althpuse, can we get a little separation here, between the scum who murdered innocent girls and the good Samaritans who stopped to render aid?

Bob Boyd said...

Yesterday Brookzene said several times how smart Chuck is.

Hmmm.

Drago said...

Early Brookzene: "It's impossible to completely protect ourselves. Even if the Islamist terrorists were to disappear tomorrow some other fanatical group would take up their strategies"

Middle Thread Brookzene: "Unless we are prepared to set up a police state such as the world has never known (and even then they will probably manage some penetration), or terrorist tactics evolve to an even worse magnitude, you will never be rid of this kind of terror, even without Islamist extremists."

Gee, where would anyone get the idea that Brookzene was advancing an argument centered on carrying on as usual?

It's inexplicable I tellya!

Brookzene said...

"What a very "Chuck-like" thing to write."

Changing the topic. I don't blame you. You have one more chance to make an intelligent argument before I ignore.

Can't go on arguing with a jackass all day.

Drago said...

Brookzene: "Changing the topic. I don't blame you. You have one more chance to make an intelligent argument before I ignore.

Can't go on arguing with a jackass all day."

Hmmm, even MORE Chuck-like than before.

Interesting.

Brookzene said...

"Gee, where would anyone get the idea that Brookzene was advancing an argument centered on carrying on as usual?"

Sorry, the argument you are saying is there ("We can't/shouldn't do anything") is not there. Back to the minors with you!

Drago said...

Your own words demonstrate your intent.

I don't have to add anything to them and all other readers can discern that for themselves as well.

Drago said...

I especially appreciate Fen's offering: "...can we get a little separation here, between the scum who murdered innocent girls and the good Samaritans who stopped to render aid?"

Indeed.

FullMoon said...

This kind of terrorism won't permanently go away now even if the Islamist terrorists gave it up.

5/24/17, 9:44 AM


Here is the diff.
Ya got a lone wolf nut who is so pissed off, or crazy, that he massacres a bunch of people.

Then, you got the crazy guy who is pissed off but will never do anything.He is groomed by the terrorist. Encouraged by the terrorist. Supplied with the means, and convinced or coerced to do the deed. Without the backing of the radicals, the crazy guy generally not going to blow himself up
Some of the FBI arrests of terrorists seem to be braggarts at the local bar who end up encouraged by undercover agents up to the point where they can arrest him.

Brookzene said...

"Without the backing of the radicals, the crazy guy generally not going to blow himself up"

This might be generally true (at the moment) but the attack in Manhattan by the car driver last week also, it's not completely true.

Brookzene said...

"shows it's not completely true."

Fen said...

Brooke i think i get what are trying to say, but one of the Left's talking points is to dismiss anti-terrorism efforts by claiming things like "if you build a taller wall they will just build longer ladders". It's intellectually dishonest and results in ridicule.

I don't think you meant it that way, but try to understand it's not unreasonable for people to assume you were just singing the 3rd stanza of that tired old song.

Darrell said...

How is the new policy going to work? Is Althouse going to give us a high sign when it's OK to jump down asshole's throats?

Drago said...

Brookzene: "This might be generally true (at the moment) but the attack in Manhattan by the car driver last week also, it's not completely true"

It is "completely true" that it is "generally true".

You seem to have a burning need to allow the exceptions to detract (and distract?) from the rule.

Drago said...

Fen: "Brooke i think i get what are trying to say, but one of the Left's talking points is to dismiss anti-terrorism efforts by claiming things like "if you build a taller wall they will just build longer ladders"."

The lefts single most important and over-riding concern is to maintain high rates of immigration from the third world to both ensure permanent left-wing electoral majorities and to punish the United States for all it's "ism's".

Therefore any and all efforts to incrementally improve our security are immediately attacked as not solving all our problems therefore we shouldn't do anything about it.

Who can forget the "you can't drill your way out of this energy problem" (which was always a lie) being offered up time and again by the left as they shot down each attempt to increase our energy production? Fortunately, #ILoveScience took over and now fracking rules the world.

In this very thread we had Brookzene, right in the middle of a Presidential Trip to the Middle East where it's become clear what Trump is attempting to build (to some surprising acclaim from many quarters), offer up this "gem": "Well, what's the Donald been doing to stop ISIS? He's been President for four months now."

Gives the entire game away.

Virtually Unknown said...

Planes will never be 100% safe, so let's stop trying so hard to keep them from crashing.

Deplorables are never going to get economic prosperity back, so let's flood the labor market with scabs willing to work cheap!

We can make the same mistakes Europe has made, but it will be different for us.

Immigration is an American tradition we must honor, unlike boatloads of other American traditions that must be destroyed!

mockturtle said...

How is the new policy going to work? Is Althouse going to give us a high sign when it's OK to jump down asshole's throats?

Ignoring them--not engaging them--is the better solution, I think. When a perfectly good thread devolves into a petty pas de deux, it's toast.

Brookzene said...

Fen, I get what you are trying to say and I'm cool with your effort. It's not an unreasonable point. Nevertheless, I have pretty high standards. I'm not going tolerate lazy thinking, whether it's the form of deliberate trolling or cognitive incompetence. I mean, I gave them a chance, I gave them clues ("what was my conclusion?") and they still didn't get or ignored the argument.

There are real smart conservatives here (some smarter than me I'm sure) who I disagree with about a lot of things who really aren't into poisoning the discussion. They're the ones worth trolling. I might learn something from them.

Engage me with respect anytime and you'll get it back. Fen and anyone else.

Darrell said...

Ignoring them--not engaging them--is the better solution,

Ironic comment on this thread.

Darrell said...

Who the F died and left you boss, newcomer?

Seeing Red said...

Trump flew directly from SA to Israel.

That was huge. More than any other president has done.

Then There's Durarte imposing martial law in his Troubles area.

Brookzene said...

I'm the boss of how I handle thing for myself, son.

Fen said...

See Brooke, a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, liberals argued in good faith. And so everyone extended them the benefit of doubt:

"No worries chap, we know you weren't attempting to summon Cthulu, even though you came very close to it"

But those days are gone. So when you seemingly imply that we can't defeat terrorism and should therefore just accept it and submit to islam, people assume that's what you mean.

It's an unfortunate consequence of allowing liberalism to be infected by cultural Marxism - no one trusts the Left anymore. And so no allowances are made, no benefit of doubt, and no quarter given.

FullMoon said...

"Without the backing of the radicals, the crazy guy generally not going to blow himself up"

This might be generally true (at the moment) but the attack in Manhattan by the car driver last week also, shows it's not completely true.

5/24/17, 10:12 AM


Yeah, see, the operative word is "generally".

Darrell said...

Right. Shiloh? Is that you?
Or some other known asshole commenting under a different name because you beclowned yourself?

exiledonmainstreet said...

Doesn't sound like Shiloh to me.

Brookzene said...

"Yeah, see, the operative word is 'generally'"

You're forgetting "at the moment".

FullMoon said...

Four people were in custody Wednesday in connection with Monday's deadly concert bombing, as British authorities continued to conduct "extensive" searches while investigating the "network" behind the attack.

"It is very clear that it is a network we are investigating," Manchester police said on Wednesday.


This is the difference between lone wolf and organized terrorism.

Inga said...

I wonder if this experience will somehow help these two guys get back on their feet. Could it give them a sense of their worth and that there are still possibilities and a better future for them? Maybe the public exposure will bring out a guardian angel for them. Hopefully it doesn't do the opposite and put them in an even worse state of mind. Here's to hoping for the best.

Fen said...

Brooke: "I'm not going to tolerate lazy..."

I think that unwise. I'm being very generous here about what your true intent was. As my my act of kindess this month. Don't be the guy who uses "niggardly" in a speech to the NAACP and then complains about the reaction.

"Those that want to be treated mercifully should extend mercy" - Mark Twain, no not really I just made that up.

Brookzene said...

"Right. Shiloh? Is that you?"

You want to talk schoolgirl stuff ("Who is that? is that Jimmy? I think it must be Billy!"). Does that really interest you rather than a sound discussion and disagreement about terror?

Sorry. Schoolgirls are actually a lot smarter and more serious than you these days!

DanTheMan said...

>>"We will not tolerate hate" We will instead, hate intolerance. We look in the mirror and do not recognize the face staring back at us.

Intolerance is now worse than murder.

Brookzene said...

"As my my act of kindess this month."

It's easy to see you for who you are. I have a responsibility to address any being with respect who addresses me the same way. When that's done, it's done.

I know others don't have the same responsibility.

Virtually Unknown said...

I gave them a chance, I gave them clues ("what was my conclusion?") and they still didn't get or ignored the argument

If your arguments seem to point to a different conclusion than you intended, perhaps you could clarify? Personally, it seems they did.

Inga said...

Calling All Angels

I need a sign to let me know you're here
All of these lines are being crossed over the atmosphere
I need to know that things are gonna look up
'Cause I feel us drowning in a sea spilled from a cup
When there is no place safe and no safe place to put my head
When you feel the world shake from the words that are said
I need a sign to let me know you're here
'Cause my TV set just keeps it all from being clear
I want a reason for the way things have to be
I need a hand to help build up some kind of hope inside of me
And I'm calling all angels
I'm calling all you angels
When children have to play inside so they don't disappear
And private eyes solve marriage lies cause we don't talk for years
And football teams are kissing Queens
And losing sight of having dreams
In a world that what we want is only what we want until it's ours
I'm calling all angels
I'm calling all you angels

Saint Croix said...

amazing

thanks for sharing this AA

Brookzene said...

All I said, and it was hardly a deep or controversial opinion, was that we won't be rid of these kind of terror tactics even if Islamists stopped them (or were somehow defeated). The genie is out of the bottle. Others will adopt them now - sooner or later.

If someone disagrees with that I'm sure there's a good response why I'm wrong - or probably wrong. Haven't heard it though.

Somehow that caused a number of people to gnash their teeth and generally say embarrassing things. At least I was embarrassed for them.

Virtually Unknown said...

Okay, it would seem Brookie is pushing the Democratic Party line that Islam is irrelevant to the discussion. Good luck, more Trump.

Fen said...

Hate won't be tolerated. Who was the policeman talking to?

A British women tweeted a call for men to "stand up for our women and children". A SJW immediately reported her for creating an unsafe space for muslims. Police tweeted back that they are investigating this hate crime.

That's who the policeman was talking to. No wonder the Muslim males refuse to be accumulated into Euro culture. It apparently includes chopping your balls off.

Virtually Unknown said...

Infiltration of remote Irish barns won't work on this threat, we can never stop it completely, so I suggest we...

Fen said...

Thanks for the poem. I have an urge to excess my solidarity by changing my Facebook avatar to the union Jack and hasgtagging my thoughts and prayers.

Just kidding. I'm with Steyn. More stuffed teddybears and candle light vigils is not the proper response.

Fen said...

Assimilated not accumulated. Smartphone is not very smart.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"All I said, and it was hardly a deep or controversial opinion, was that we won't be rid of these kind of terror tactics even if Islamists stopped them (or were somehow defeated). The genie is out of the bottle. Others will adopt them now - sooner or later."

You were criticized because you seemed to imply that “therefore there is nothing we can do.” Sure, other groups might adopt ISIS tactics in the future, but we have to worry about the threat here and now. And it is a threat that, as of May 2017, is coming from the members of a specific religion. Christians, Buddhists and members of the Knights of Columbus are not threats we have to concern ourselves with. Maybe someday, we'll have to worry about Shriners blowing themselves up in a crowd, but not right now.

You have set up your own straw man. You seem to think that people here are saying whatever is done to combat Islamic terrorism will end all terrorism for all time. But nobody thinks that, just as nobody thinks that if, say, everyone wears a seat belt nobody will ever die in a car accident.

Angel-Dyne said...

Bookzene: Unless we are prepared to set up a police state such as the world has never known (and even then they will probably manage some penetration)...

"[A]re prepared to set up"? You got the tense wrong. The UK already has a Kafka-esque surveillance state set up, necessary to manage the infinite unalloyed goodness of "diversity". Like other Western states, it now has clown-crime law like "Islamophobia" on the books.

Apparently it's not the imposition of a police state per se that bothers some people. Some goals, like maintaining mass Muslim immigration into Western countries, are so stupendously important that the growth of police states in defense of those ends is OK.

mockturtle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
exiledonmainstreet said...

Fen said...
Thanks for the poem. I have an urge to excess my solidarity by changing my Facebook avatar to the union Jack and hasgtagging my thoughts and prayers."

ISIS is so moved by poetry and empty gestures of solidarity. I'm sure the guy who always shows up to play "Imagine" on the piano will someday melt the hearts of those who burn people alive in cages.

Why did we have to fight WWII? We could have just sent Europeans poems and teddy bears and held candlelight vigils at Pearl Harbor.

Fen said...

"Honey come to bed. Did you lock the door?"

"Nah, they'll just pry open the window instead so what's the point. Just pretend they are me on viagra"

"I want a divorce"

"Now dear, don't be rape-phobic."

mockturtle said...

Here's what I would like to see. It's totally unrealistic but I'd still like to see it:

1. All Muslims return to the Middle East, regardless of their birthplace.
2. Total sanctions by western countries.
3. No more foreign aid or weapons sales to ME countries except to Israel.
4. All non-Muslims leave the ME except for Israel.
5. Let the Sunnis and the Shiites fight it out among themselves.

Yes, it would mean Russia would have a free hand in the ME but their experience there, like ours, has been expensive and unsuccessful. Maybe if we disengage, they will.

Angel-Dyne said...

Fen: A British women tweeted a call for men to "stand up for our women and children". A SJW immediately reported her for creating an unsafe space for muslims. Police tweeted back that they are investigating this hate crime.

Look, Fen, if we don't use the law to harass and punish hatey Islamophobes like Katie Hopkins for typing stuff on twitter, we'll end up living in a police state. Don't you understand?

We have to destroy our values to save Our Values.

Fen said...

Brookzene: are we prepared to set up a police state the likes of which-

BAMM BAM headdesk BAMM

I supported our efforts in Iraq because the choices were to either play offense or retreat behind the static defenses of a police state.

The Left chose retreat.

And now that the choice is between retreat and surrender, they choose surrender.

Almost makes you want to play for the other side.

mockturtle said...

Exiled muses: Why did we have to fight WWII? We could have just sent Europeans poems and teddy bears and held candlelight vigils at Pearl Harbor.

Every time I see a candlelight vigil after a human-perpetrated atrocity, it strikes me oddly as the same response as to a natural disaster, like an earthquake or flood. Much hugging and many tears but no righteous anger against the perpetrators and, more significantly, no plan of action to defeat them.

cubanbob said...

Brookzene I'm asking in good faith where does a lone wolf get the explosives needed to do this and where did he acquire the skills and knowledge to construct the bomb?

Fen said...

Thanks exile and angel, a bit of humour in the face of this insanity is appreciated.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Brookzene said...
Doesn't have to be a group. It just has to be a persistent number of lone wolves committing acts of terrorism for whatever reason they want.

This kind of terrorism won't permanently go away now even if the Islamist terrorists gave it up.

5/24/17, 9:44 AM

Okay. You want to be treated as a good faith actor, and will reciprocate? Yes?

Assuming so, let's try.

You want us to respect your words and not read into them so let me request these clarifications:

* "persistent number of lone wolves" - can you draw us a concrete scenario?

* "won't permanently go away" - is temporarily going away OK?

* Would you please state explicitly your conclusion, that you feel people are inferring wrongly?

* Are you familiar with Richard Fernandez' "The Three Conjectures?" Reflections?

* You profess a high moral tone and declare that certain actions are beneath you ('rather die') in opposing the other side in this clash of civilizations. Can you express this as some sort of standard that we can look to you to uphold?

* Will your restraint against Islamofascism be matched by the limits of your opposition to domestic sociopolitical opponents?

exiledonmainstreet said...

And absolutely no effect, mockturtle, on the people doing the killing. Remember those "Take Back the Night" anti-rape marches in the '80's? The Ted Bundys of this word are amused, not saddened, by "Take Back the Night" marches. Good men don't need a march to teach them rape is bad. So who are those marches for? They made the marchers feel good about themselves: "Gee, what a compassionate person I am! I'm against rape!"

Arming oneself and getting a concealed carry permit, or, at the very least, taking a self-defense class does more to prevent rape than all the marches and candles in the world.

I'm just so tired of these empty gestures and maudlin expressions of sympathy.

At least we don't have a First Lady who thinks a tweet of herself standing there with a sign looking sad is some sort of constructive action.

cubanbob said...

Brookzene said...
All I said, and it was hardly a deep or controversial opinion, was that we won't be rid of these kind of terror tactics even if Islamists stopped them (or were somehow defeated). The genie is out of the bottle. Others will adopt them now - sooner or later.

If someone disagrees with that I'm sure there's a good response why I'm wrong - or probably wrong. Haven't heard it though. "

Yours is the position of all or nothing. If you can't understand the absurdity of that, that's on you but not on the rest of us. And yes, many of the commenters on this thread have replied to you on why you are wrong but you seem unwilling to hear them. To paraphrase Mayor Ed Koch " they can explain it to you but they can't understand it for you".

Ann Althouse said...

How is the new policy going to work? Is Althouse going to give us a high sign when it's OK to jump down asshole's throats?"

Or throat's assholes.

n.n said...

Wow. Extraordinary character and courage.

Paul Zrimsek said...

Columbia Journalism Review used to publish a little book of mangled headlines like that, titled Squad Helps Dog Bite Victim.

DanTheMan said...

146 comments, and no mention of killer bathtubs? Has the talking point changed?

tcrosse said...

Columbia Journalism Review used to publish a little book of mangled headlines like that, titled Squad Helps Dog Bite Victim.

Trump and Schumer Butt Heads.

Brookzene said...

"Yours is the position of all or nothing."

No, it's not. Can't believe the lack of reading comprehension from some of you. Embarrassing.

We need to do what we reasonably can to protect ourselves. But you aren't going to always be able to protect yourself. Others besides ISIS are going to be taking up these tactics.

Virtually Unknown said...

What are we supposed to do with your 'insight' Brookie?

Virtually Unknown said...

Why not cut to the chase and tell us what "reasonable" means to you.

Brookzene said...

"You want us to respect your words"

First of all, before I read any further I don't give a fuck if you respect my words or not. My argument is respectable (if not especially profound) and that's too damn bad if someone thinks it's not.

Like I said, I'm looking for smart conservatives/liberals/moderates to engage me, hopefully so I can learn something. I'm not interested in rabid partisans, particularly not goofy extremists.

Brookzene said...

"What are we supposed to do with your 'insight' Brookie?"

You can agree, disagree or ignore it. Are you that simple?

exiledonmainstreet said...

"We need to do what we reasonably can to protect ourselves. But you aren't going to always be able to protect yourself. Others besides ISIS are going to be taking up these tactics."

So you keep saying. And I say yes, of course, getting rid of ISIS won't stop terrorism for all times and make everyone 100% safe.

That's an obvious point. The sticking point is what "reasonably" means.

Brookzene said...

"* "persistent number of lone wolves" - can you draw us a concrete scenario?"

Maybe sometime in the future some aggrieved group, nationalist, racial, the mentally ill, whatever, takes to the idea of suicide bombing. Something like the guy in the car in Manhattan last week.

* "won't permanently go away" - is temporarily going away OK?"

Any time we don't have terrorism that's great with me.

"* Would you please state explicitly your conclusion, that you feel people are inferring wrongly?"

I'm pretty sure I stated this explicitly at least three times.

"* Are you familiar with Richard Fernandez' "The Three Conjectures?" Reflections?

No,I'm not familiar with him.

"* You profess a high moral tone and declare that certain actions are beneath you ('rather die') in opposing the other side in this clash of of civilizations. Can you express this as some sort of standard that we can look to you to uphold?"

That's a pretty interesting question. I'm all for people expressing their core beliefs as clearly as possible. Go ahead. But my standards are something that I look for myself to uphold. Not sure other people matter to me that way.

* Will your restraint against Islamofascism be matched by the limits of your opposition to domestic sociopolitical opponents?

The "restraint" I expressed is my opposition to killing the families of bombers - presumably as retaliation or deterrent. I said that would make us like them. I could never see killing the families of my enemies intentionally or as a strategy in itself.

Inga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brookzene said...

"Can you express this as some sort of standard that we can look to you to uphold?"

Don't kill your enemy's families if you can help it. Your life won't be worth living. YMMV for yourself.

Inga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Inga said...

Not meant as an empty gesture or to be maudlin. The two homeless men just reminded me of angels and I think some beauty in the midst of ugliness doesn't hurt anyone. This Calling All Angels is also a very beautiful song. The Other Calling All Angels was by Train.

Calling All Angels, by Jane Siberry and KD Lang

exiledonmainstreet said...

The two homeless men did a very good thing.

Brookzene said...

"This Calling All Angels is also a very beautiful song."

I also liked that song Send Me an Angel that Alicia Keyes did at Whitney Houston's funeral.

Rockport Conservative said...

Richard Fernandez writes at the blog Belmont Club;a very insightful essayist, and part of the PJMedia crew. He is also known as Wretchard.

Brookzene said...

I spent a little time in a Rockport B&B. The owner recommended a restaurant in Gloucester, McT's, that was really great. Unfortunately they closed.

Fen said...

"What are we supposed to do witb your I sight Booke?"

It's a good question. Because if we extend courtesy and pretend you weren't attempting the usual liberal ploy of normalizing and dismissing terrorism, all we are left with is a statement that water is wet.

So what point were you trying to make? Why restate the obvious?

Fen said...

"Beauty in the midst of ugliness doesn't hurt anyone"

Yes it does, if the proper response is anger and rage, and those emotions are displaced with maudlin sympathy. One of the reasons we are pulling nails out of children's faces today is because your tribe was too busy singing "Imagine" after the last 3 attacks.

Fen said...

And patting each other on the back for being so "enlightened".

Brookzene said...

"Because if we extend courtesy and pretend"

You can blow me.

Known Unknown said...

"Assimilated not accumulated"

A typo without a difference, when you think about it.

Known Unknown said...

"Yes it does, if the proper response is anger and rage"

This is my instant feeling whenever I read of these attacks. 9/11 made me furious.

Virtually Unknown said...

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Maybe a more accessible question for Brookie would be to ask him the point of stating the obvious over and over when nobody is arguing with him on it?

His rationalization that we are just "simple" (Talk about irony!) saves him from having to think too hard. We know that's a challenge for some.

Fen said...

Brooke: "You can blow me"

So I was right along. I gave you the benefit of doubt, even gently advised you about how your statement could be misinterpreted, and along with many others here gave you opportunity to explain your remarks in more detail.

Blow me, you respond.

Thank you for teaching us this lesson about liberals. It's why no quarter should ever be given.

"And if it ever comes up - 'Crime gee I don't know' - is the moment I decided to kick your ass" - Bartlett, West Wing

Bad Lieutenant said...

Blogger Brookzene said...
"You want us to respect your words"

First of all, before I read any further I don't give a fuck if you respect my words or not.

That's not very nice. Funny thing is, people have said to me more than once that they don't care about respect. They soon find that its lack is regrettable to them.

In any case, you misunderstood me. What I meant, if you had continued reading, is that you want your positions to be defined only by the explicit statements that you make, and your words should all be accepted as true / sincere, and we should not try to read between the lines with you, and if we don't have your explicit word on an issue, we don't know what you think and shouldn't guess.

I don't know. Considering how you answered Fen, should I continue or have you doffed the mask?


Get back to me and I'll see you about responding further tomorrow. It's a little late and I have to go to work. Just one thing, notwithstanding that you say that you have repeated it, would you be so kind as to concisely but explicitly state your point, conclusion, or whatever it is, so that I may not be accused of misunderstanding or misinterpreting you?