May 2, 2017

German court says that a male escort's privacy outweighs a female client's interest in getting money to support the child that resulted from the sex she paid money to get.

She only knew the man as "Michael," but there were 3 other Michaels in the hotel, and "Each of the four Michaels had a right to 'control their own data and protect their own marriage and family,' the ruling said.... 'Nor is it certain that the Christian name is indeed the name of the man in question.'"

The BBC reports, adding: "German privacy laws are among the strictest in Europe. It is partly a legacy of history — under the Nazis, then later under the communist East German regime, there was intrusive mass surveillance, with grievous human rights abuses."

All those Michaels. Not their real name, the court suspects. What's the best name for a male escort serving female clients? In Germany, it seems to be Michael. I can't comment on how that name feels to a German woman. If this were happening in America, I'd theorize that women paying for sex want a sense of normality, not exoticism.

What's a good nom de guerre for a prostitute? I cannot figure out a good way to Google that question. 10 different approaches have taken me down 20 rat holes.

Anyway, on the privacy issue, did the German court get it right? You may remember that I've supported court decisions that require men to pay child support even when they did not want the child to be born, but that was when the government wanted the father to pay, and the government's interest was in getting parents, rather than taxpayers, to support the children who are born. But this is a case where the woman is seeking child support and the government in the form of the court has decided that the interests of other people are more important. She can't figure out who the father is, and the government declines to help her.

81 comments:

Jake said...

45 Most Popular Stripper Names

I Callahan said...

You may remember that I've supported court decisions that require men to pay child support even when they did not want the child to be born, but that was when the government wanted the father to pay, and the government's interest was in getting parents, rather than taxpayers, to support the children who are born. But this is a case where the woman is seeking child support and the government in the form of the court has decided that the interests of other people are more important. She can't figure out who the father is, and the government declines to help her.

I think you're slicing the onion a bit too thin here. I can't really see much of a difference between the two scenarios, since in both cases, the government is the enforcer anyway. It seems inconsistent.

That said - the German court has it right, and you had it wrong in your original view. That at least has the distinction of being a consistent philosophy in the matter.

Original Mike said...

"She only knew the man as "Michael," but there were 3 other Michaels in the hotel, and "Each of the four Michaels had a right to 'control their own data and protect their own marriage and family,' "

All I can say is it wasn't me. I haven't been to Germany in years. Honest.

exiledonmainstreet said...

"What's a good nom de guerre for a prostitute? I cannot figure out a good way to Google that question. 10 different approaches have taken me down 20 rat holes."

I think a male prostitute might get into some trouble if he called himself "Mohammed."

Bay Area Guy said...

On a substantive level, a woman who pays a man for sex, gets pregnant, and then seeks him out for child support has a few screws loose (no pun intended).

Roger Sweeny said...

She hired someone to have sex with her without a condom? And now she wants him to pay because she's pregnant?

I think that's called "assumption of the risk."

Michael McClain said...

What's a good name for a male escort?

Dick.

Someone had to say it.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Michael McClain said...
What's a good name for a male escort?

Dick.

Someone had to say it.

5/2/17, 10:14 AM

Rod

Peter

Michael K said...

This sounds fishy to me.

I remember the angry social worker who spent years looking for the USC medical student who had donated sperm to a sperm bank at County hospital. She wanted to demand he support her even though she was 30. It wasn't enough she was alive.

Last I checked, abortion was legal in Germany up to 20 weeks.

Fortunately the LA story had occurred years before I was at the medical school.

readering said...

The kid is 7. Does sound like a fishing expedition.

wwww said...


The government is not obligated to get involved if the state does not wish to get involved. That would imply that the woman or the child has a right that the state must fulfill.

There is no right on the part of the child, or the woman, that mandates the state must provide detective services to track down anonymous sex partners.

Tinderbox said...

I imagine in recent years it's been "Christian".

Sebastian said...

"I think a male prostitute might get into some trouble if he called himself "Mohammed."" But "Mo" would be suitably ambiguous.

By the way, it looks like those crazy Germans have actual privacy laws, you know, like, writing down rules and everything, so they don't need "justices' fabricating stuff from penumbrae of emanations.

Big Mike said...

@Original Mike, not me either. I haven't been to Germany since 1973.

John Tuffnell said...

I thought David would be favorite choice.

Because Germans love David Hasselhoff.

Drago said...

Roger Sweeny: "She hired someone to have sex with her without a condom? And now she wants him to pay because she's pregnant?

I think that's called "assumption of the risk."

Actually, according to todays lefties, that could be called rape. Even rape-rape.

wwww said...

I remember the angry social worker who spent years looking for the USC medical student who had donated sperm to a sperm bank at County hospital. She wanted to demand he support her even though she was 30. It wasn't enough she was alive.


Financial support is ridiculous. This is not the state's job to get involved in her drama.

I understand why someone born via sperm donor might be curious but an anonymous sperm donor is a sperm donor and that's the deal.

If she was raised by a legal, infertile dad, I feel bad for him that his daughter was obsessed with another daddy figure.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Some German women apparently are looking across the Atlantic and are seeing that such arguments are successful here, so they're decided to see if they can do the same over there. Looks like the German courts are more sensible than ours, at least in this case.

Gahrie said...

You may remember that I've supported court decisions that require men to pay child support even when they did not want the child to be born

You also support court decisions forcing men to pay child support to woman who had raped them, or obtained semen from used condoms or from oral sex and impregnated themselves without the man's permission.

When we objected, you called us splooge stooges.

Big Mike said...

Wait a minute! The room was booked under his name but she claims he was the hired escort??? Michael K is right; it smells fishy. Occam's Razor suggests that she was the paid escort.

exiledonmainstreet said...

John Tuffnell said...
I thought David would be favorite choice.

Because Germans love David Hasselhoff.

5/2/17, 10:24 AM

I wonder if there were a bunch of French male whores calling themselves "Jerry" back in the '60's and '70's.

Pettifogger said...

As between the man and the woman, under these facts, my sympathy is with the man. But both adults knowingly and recklessly engaged in conduct that could result in a child. The child is the one utterly blameless party in this situation. I vote for a DNA test.

mockturtle said...

If this were happening in America, I'd theorize that women paying for sex want a sense of normality, not exoticism.

I disagree. Just like when eating out I don't want 'home-style' cooking but something more exotic, I would feel the same about a male prostitute. Alexei, Siegfried, TaiJuan. Bruce is out, of course...

Comanche Voter said...

There's an old saying, "Don't stick your (membrum virile--this is a family blog after all) in crazy". Certainly applies here; "Michael" the male escort should remember it.

Fernandinande said...

Sebastian said...
But "Mo" would be suitably ambiguous.


So would Larry but not Curly.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Someone should think of the children.
Won't anyone think of the children?!

Pettifogger said...

As for abortion, whatever your views on the circumstances under which it should be available, surely we do not want legal incentives to abort.

John Tuffnell said...

exiledonmainstreet said...
I wonder if there were a bunch of French male whores calling themselves "Jerry" back in the '60's and '70's.

Maybe so, but that might be too close to the German nickname in WWII. Unless the French girls were into that.

buwaya said...

On the "nom de guerre" - I think everyone should have one.
I always thought it was cool that all the Free French officers used them - "Leclerc" for instance.

Its an old military tradition that has died out, almost (revived as needed, for instance by both sides in the Donets war). It goes back to the traditional mercenary nature of Eurooean regiments, and was not limited to the French army, though they probably kept using it the longest.

rhhardin said...

It was to be an exchange of liguidity.

holdfast said...

It seems that the Althouse rules of conception are, in descending order of importance:

1) The government is always right (or Regeln sind Regeln in German), and the needs of the state are paramount (Der Staat ├╝ber alles).

2) If rule #1 does not apply, then the woman is always right and the need of the woman are paramount.

3) Men are suckers and get what they deserve.

Freeman Hunt said...

I think the child should have the right to know who his biological parents are if possible.

Chuck said...

Does Godwin's Law work in Germany?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

It almost seems to work in reverse; that is, when an online discussion concerns German society, they all start with Hitler, and the longer they go on, the less chance there is that any comparisons to Hitler will occur.


Bruce Hayden said...

Kinda the opposite of what they apparently do in CA, which is for women's to go through phone books looking for men with the same name as the one who, supposedly, impregnated them, serve them (court papers), and get a default judgment for child support from one of the guys who didn't respond (presumably picking the richest where there were more than one not responding).

Going just for a first name makes this eve easier. Just serve the first ten "Michaels" in the phone book. If they all answer, serve the next ten. Etc, until some poor sucker fails to answer. Then move for default judgement, saddling him for child support for the next 18 years. Nice thing about default judgement is that you don't have to worry about little inconveniences like DNA testing. After all, it is for the Good Of The Child.

JimT said...

Nom de couch?

MadisonMan said...

I vote for a DNA test.

Who should be tested? Every man who might have once been called Michael?

I think the child should have the right to know who his biological parents are if possible.

If possible being the key phrase. I'm afraid this kid is saddled with a mother who can't provide that. The kid will know that his Mom paid for someone to impregnate her. Maybe she can describe Dad, but that's about it -- and I don't think it's up to the Govt to get involved to help Mom out here.

BarrySanders20 said...

The Romans had some good noms de guerre. Saw it myself in that great documentary Life of Brian.

"Nautius Maximus was his name. . ."

James Pawlak said...

The proper "Nom" is "Hillary"---As can be used by any gender.

eric said...

Wait, women pay for sex with men?

Is this really a thing that happens?

She must be one ugly woman.

I mean, where I come from, even the unattractive women can get sex at the drop of the hat. No payment required.

Chris N said...

I don't know if I can help you in your pursuit of current idealized German gigolo names, Althouse, but I'll try:

-Adolf's probably not common anywhere
-Fritz
-Gunther
-Demarcus
-Fuddrucker
-Horst

Unknown said...

It seems to me this is a discovery issue, not a paternity issue. The buyer is trying to figure out the seller and want to make this random "Michael" tell her. But, she can't show that this guy has anything to do with her kid or even her. I think a US court would have a hard time compelling disclosure from a group of men who you thought might or might not have had sex with you. Kinda like the standing issue in the FISA wiretapping cases with privacy subbing for national security.

Daniel Jackson said...

According to this site, http://star941fm.iheart.com/photos/star-photos/40-most-popular-male-stripper-names-438582/#/7/24598165, Michael is the seventh (out of 40) popular name for male strippers.

Be that as it may, they spent three days together, and she does not know his full name?

The whole business reeks of old cod fish cakes.

Jose_K said...

What's a good nom de guerre for a prostitute? not Mary for sure

Ann Althouse said...

"'If this were happening in America, I'd theorize that women paying for sex want a sense of normality, not exoticism.' I disagree. Just like when eating out I don't want 'home-style' cooking but something more exotic, I would feel the same about a male prostitute. Alexei, Siegfried, TaiJuan...."

Well, you don't disagree with the point I was trying to make. To put it more clearly, what I mean by "If this were happening in America" is if I had seen that the name Michael was overwhelmingly popular as an assumed name for a male escort. With that "if" understood, you should support my theory that women who pay for sex are seeking normality and not exoticism. If we were seeing weird names for male escorts, then I would theorize that something more exotic was sought.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

What's the best name for a male escort serving female clients?

Fred Garvin.

Ann Althouse said...

"According to this site, http://star941fm.iheart.com/photos/star-photos/40-most-popular-male-stripper-names-438582/#/7/24598165, Michael is the seventh (out of 40) popular name for male strippers."

I can't believe I got myself into the position to say you are wrong.

The Drill SGT said...

Reminds me of a joke.

An Army Officer is dressing after a pleasant night with a Parisian woman of dubious virtue.

She says: "Monsieur, before you leave, we must discuss payment..."

He says: "Madame, An American Officer does not accept gratuities for a public service"

mockturtle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Daniel Jackson said...

MADAME ALTHOUSE! Please! Say it ain't so! Are you suggesting that this piece, properly cited from the internet, is incorrect?

Okay, here's another site that states:

"1. Alex & Mike TIE!
Alex and Mike (along with their longer versions, Alexander and Michael) are the most popular male escort names. Our guess: Magic Mike had something to do with that name’s popularity."
[http://blog.escortdesign.com/the-top-male-escort-names/]

I will concede that this is a diminutive of Michael, but after three days of non-stop passion, one would expect to use the suffix for "heavenly" and a full name is by far more romantic.

And for ANY Michael, position is no problem. In your heart, you know I'm right!



Rick said...

I think a US court would have a hard time compelling disclosure from a group of men who you thought might or might not have had sex with you.

In the US the woman could enter whatever name she wanted on the birth certificate and if the man didn't object within 6 months (even including because he didn't know he been so designated) he'd be the legal father subject to child support even if it turned out he was never with the mother.

walter said...

Women want normalcy over exoticism in their male prostitutes?
Trolling Laslo to add to his Mandingo character?
If more mainstream is desired, hard to beat "Lance".
Dudes..control your data..even when they're paying.

Rick said...

Michael McClain said...
What's a good name for a male escort?

Dick.



Hugh. Hugh G. Rection

And everyone's favorite:

Buck Naked

Mike said...

when an online discussion concerns German society, they all start with Hitler, and the longer they go on, the less chance there is that any comparisons to Hitler will occur

See that? That's why I continue to read Chuck's stuff. Every once in awhile he channels his inner George Carlin and lays down a gem like that.

Nice work Chuck.

walter said...

I guess DNA is the "data"?
Is there a tv show like "Maury" to get to the bottom of this?

Static Ping said...

I don't know German law. That said, asking to reveal the personal information of a group of people based on only a first name that may not even be real because of the say-so of a "jane" does seem ridiculous. I could see the police being able to do this as part of the investigation of a serious crime, but apparently this is not a crime. It's too vague to act upon.

When did this court action start? You would think she would not have waited 7 years before acting.

Bill said...

What's the best name for a male escort serving female clients?

Hans the Schwanz.

walter said...

Blogger Static Ping said...
You would think she would not have waited 7 years before acting.
--
Check her financials...

walter said...

Plus..the paternity laws were changed mid 2016..so this might have been started prior to that when it looked like that might happen.

David said...

"She can't figure out who the father is, and the government declines to help her."

Oh my God she will have to deal with the consequences of her actions by herself. The horror.

David said...

"I mean, where I come from, even the unattractive women can get sex at the drop of the hat. No payment required."

It's about branding and quality control. Alex.

tim in vermont said...

Does Big Mike have an alibi?

walter said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
walter said...

Might have had reasons for discretion..the 3 day workshop that wasn't.
Or just collecting data.
I had that "offer" once from a not quite divorced woman who was up against the bio-clock.

Big Mike said...

@tim, any children conceived during my last trip to Germany would be 43 years old. Way past child support age. (Whew!)

walter said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
walter said...

For those choosing not to click, it's a male for women escort agency..first stud depicted for Chicago (L2R) is "Michael"..gets a bit more exotic from there.

mockturtle said...

I would guess that if 'escort' actually included going out in public and not just sex, 'normal' might be preferable to 'exotic' [to some].

mockturtle said...

Interesting link, walter. 'Brendan' looks fun. ;-)

buwaya said...

Ah, a nom de guerre.
Something to call people on the balky, obsolete R/T unit in the back of the Laffly 4x4 one night out in the bled south of Jaro oasis, with the faithful Senegalese all looking on. Not ten words of French between them, but they will die for you in an instant.
Perhaps we can get "Winchester" to do an airdrop. We are short of ammo for the Hotchkiss, and goodness knows we are all, even the blacks, thoroughly sick of the vinogel.

mockturtle said...

Dustin, in NY, is gorgeous but looks gay.

walter said...

Careful..has a sensitive look.

Ann Althouse said...

Don't link to escort services!

Daniel Jackson said...

NOW you tell us

walter said...

That's "career shaming"..

mockturtle said...

Don't link to escort services!

I found it a real eye opener! ;-D

mockturtle said...

But if you do order an escort, be sure to order it through the Althouse Amazon portal.

walter said...

They can drone one to you Mock.

Richard Dolan said...

"Anyway, on the privacy issue, did the German court get it right? You may remember that I've supported court decisions that require men to pay child support even when they did not want the child to be born, but that was when the government wanted the father to pay, ..."

What a weird question. "Get it right" measured against what standard? The German court is much more likely to know the requirements of German law than anyone here. If the question is, basically, how would this play out in a typical American jurisdiction, the short answer is that information about the identity of hotel guests is not generally regarded as privileged under American law, although results may vary from one state to another. So, if the mother sued a 'John Doe' defendant, and served a subpoena on the hotel for information about anyone named 'Michael,' there is a fair chance that a court would require disclosure of the information. A non-party generally cannot object on grounds that the information sought by the subpoena is irrelevant to the underlying litigation. Nor do American courts generally quash otherwise appropriate discovery demands in litigation based on privacy concerns. Instead, they deal with privacy issues by requiring that the information be dealt with confidentially -- by filing any papers revealing it under seal or in some other way. For example, that is the usual way courts require litigants to handle sensitive information such as bank account numbers, tax information, social security numbers, etc.

Absent a lawsuit or some other proceeding entitling the mother to demand the disclosure of information from a hotel (or, really, anyone), it is very unlikely that the mother would succeed in obtaining the identity of 'Michael'. Why would a hotel (or anyone else with such information) disclose it except under compulsory process, when doing so could possibly subject the hotel to a suit by a former guest?

Ann's distinction between cases where the gov't is seeking to require the reluctant father to pay child support and the case where the mother is seeking the same relief, doesn't work for me. The basic issue is whether the father has a duty to support his child, regardless of whether he ever intended to or wanted to be a father. Ann makes the focus whether the state has a right to require private parties to pick up the social cost of their actions (again, regardless of whether they intended those consequences). I have no doubt that the state generally does have that power. But the existence of the state's right is hardly an argument against the existence of a similar right of the mother (or more accurately, of the child). Both follow from the basic idea that each of us is responsible for the consequences of our voluntary actions. What is required is an argument showing why that principle doesn't apply when the mother seeks child support. I'm not seeing that argument here.

fivewheels said...

"The name is Oliver. Phil Oliver."

Michael K said...

"An Army Officer "

I heard it was a Marne gunnery sergeant.

Gahrie said...

Both follow from the basic idea that each of us is responsible for the consequences of our voluntary actions. What is required is an argument showing why that principle doesn't apply when the mother seeks child support. I'm not seeing that argument here.

Women must never be held responsible for the choices they make.