March 17, 2017

"What you resist not only persists, but will grow in size."

Said Carl Jung, quoted in a Psychology Today article from last spring, "You Only Get More of What You Resist—Why?"
Psychologically speaking, resistance and resolution are at opposite poles. For resistance has fundamentally to do with not being able, or willing, to  deal with the negative experiences in your life. And ultimately your happiness depends a lot more on handling—then letting go of—such adversities than it does, self-protectively, denying them, or fighting against them. In addition, so does (unwittingly) holding onto their associated feelings of hurt, sorrow, anxiety, or anger.

Without consciously deciding to, you can even get “attached” to feelings you haven’t resolved. But if you become aware of the exorbitantly high costs of not acknowledging, and working through, these feelings, you’ll realize that heedlessly clinging to them hasn’t at all contributed to your welfare. Quite the opposite.....
I ran across that article as I was looking for a link to put on my coinage "persisting-resisting" in this post, referring to "the people who are persisting-resisting Trump after the election, who go heavily into not-my-President politics." I knew that Mitch McConnell, squelching a Senator, had said "Nevertheless, she persisted" and created a feminist meme and that Hillary Clinton had combined "persist" with its rhyme "resist" in some kind of advice to Democrats. Ah, yes, here it is in all its tin-eared glory:
"Let resistance plus persistence equal progress for our party and our country. Keep fighting. I'll be right there with you every step of the way."
It's worth noticing that the psychologists have gotten there first with the resist/persist rhetoric. I don't know if I trust psychologists more than politicians. The old psychiatrist advice stop resisting sounds rather creepy. I'll be right there with you every step of the way — that's creepy too.

Anyway... connect that Hillary quote and that Jung quote. "Let resistance plus persistence equal progress" and "What you resist not only persists, but will grow in size." Seems like progress will come in the form of more Trump.

96 comments:

Owen said...

Intriguing topic and some astute points. But why must the rest of us be dragooned into a group therapy session for the Regressives? This is not the cereal aisle of the supermarket where they can wail and kick in protest because no Froot Loops are forthcoming.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Is this the tread where we quote stuff re deep thoughts re resolution?

Assuming so:

"You take the good, you take the bad,
you take them both and there you have
The Facts of Life, the Facts of Life.
There's a time you got to go and show
You're growin' now you know about
The Facts of Life, the Facts of Life.
When the world never seems
to be livin up to your dreams
And suddenly you're finding out
the Facts of Life are all about you, you.
It takes a lot to get 'em right
When you're learning the Facts of Life."



You're welcome.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"Let resistance plus persistence equal progress"

This sorta sounds like a reverend Jackson quote.

But it'd be more like:

"Let resistance plus persistence perplex the prerogatives of progressor-preemptors."

chickelit said...

Oh very Jung, what will you leave us this time?

David Begley said...

Hillary and the Left are consumed with anger. They can't face the facts. They lost and for good reason. Their policies have failed .America.

tcrosse said...

What they call Resistance is actually Denial.

roesch/voltaire said...

I agree better to take a page from the UK who said Trumps claims "are ridiculous and should be ignored." Rather concentrate on the real issues presented in bills etc that promise to punish the poor, bloat the military, and cut taxes for the rich.

sunsong said...

There is a point about 'what you resist persists. And that makes these times even more difficult. The resisters need also to be builders of what we want. But because of the danger (that is real) for humankind and for the planet - it is important, imo, to continue to resist and to persist :-)

Nonapod said...

If you want to convince people that your arguments have merit, it is better to be persuasive than obstinately resistive and insulting. Being persuasive is far more difficult than hurling epithets and "othering" your opposition. In order to be persuasive, you first have to be self aware. You have to carefully examine your own arguments. You also have to understand the other sides arguments, why those arguments may be appealing. You have to be empathetic to your opposition on some level.

So far I haven't seen many people on the left/progressive side of things be very persuasive since the election.

Rob said...

I'm always amused-outraged by cops theatrically shouting, "Stop resisting!" as they beat the crap out of some hapless perp.

Andrew Koenig said...

I continue to believe that what the Left is calling "resistance" is really impedance, because it has a real part and an imaginary part.

antiphone said...

This is not the cereal aisle of the supermarket...

That's where you're wrong(so wrong). The cereal aisle is where the future is born even as the fortune cookie can only illuminate the past. In China!

traditionalguy said...

Resisting good relationships leaves you without a support system. Loners are not getting their needs met, and the Government is the ultimate con man.

Actually providing good relationships is the secret of Christianity. Don't leave home without it. Everything good flows from it.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

BTW,

couldn't someone build a narrative around the futility and counter-effectiveness of the R's six-plus years of resistance to Obamacare w/o figuring out a policy resolution?

Sure, the jury is still out re what finally happens.

But, it's undeniable that six years of extremely strong resistance did not also include a resolution plan. OTOH, the resistance worked at getting R base voters all wound up. Maybe, from a pol's POV, electoral resistance to the opposition is more important than actual policy resolutions. On election day pushing some extra resistance to your opponent can be the key to winning.

I dunno.

Bad Lieutenant said...

roesch/voltaire said...
I agree better to take a page from the UK who said Trumps claims "are ridiculous and should be ignored." Rather concentrate on the real issues presented in bills etc that promise to punish the poor, bloat the military, and cut taxes for the rich.

3/17/17, 9:43 AM

Funny how you treat "cut taxes for the rich" as facially bad. "punish the poor" and "bloat the military" are arguably bad things (granting your premise arguendo, naturally), but to say the same of cutting taxes...gee, I would like to have cut my taxes, wouldn't you? Taxes are not like firearms, they don't hold a place with all that's good.

bagoh20 said...

" The old psychiatrist advice stop resisting sounds rather creepy. I'll be right there with you every step of the way — that's creepy too."

"What you resist will not only persist, but grow in size."

The creep looks forward to your resistance.

antiphone said...

Actually providing good relationships is the secret of Christianity.


Yes, (so true) and of Scientology as well!

Bad Lieutenant said...

And more taxes are not inherently, unquestionably better. Closer to the reverse, clearly.

Bad Lieutenant said...

bagoh20 said...
" The old psychiatrist advice stop resisting sounds rather creepy. I'll be right there with you every step of the way — that's creepy too."

"What you resist will not only persist, but grow in size."

The creep looks forward to your resistance.

3/17/17, 9:58 AM
Blogger antiphone said...
Actually providing good relationships is the secret of Christianity.


Yes, (so true) and of Scientology as well!

3/17/17, 9:59 AM


Bagoh20, you're so right. Look at this creep Auntie Phony.

bagoh20 said...

"Loners are not getting their needs met"

As a former loner now with a substantial set of relationships with people I love, I felt much more satisfied more often when I was alone. Relationships are really demanding, leaving a natural loner continuously exhausted with many needs unsatisfied, especially the need for peace and quiet.

Francisco D said...

AA wrote: I don't know if I trust psychologists more than politicians. "

As a 30+ year Psychologist, I don't trust a lot of people in my field.

However, Psychologists have a lot less power than politicians/lawyers. They don't cause as much harm when they are incompetent.

tola'at sfarim said...

Chelsea's she persisted
Slick Willy's Willy persisted against resistance. Can't confirm the growing in size

bagoh20 said...

""What you resist will not only persist, but grow in size.""

If I believed that, I'd be much more friendly and outgoing.

roesch/voltaire said...

I don't think cutting taxes for the rich and raising the cost of medicaid for the elderly is a good thing for the country frankly. The rich have been doing rather well in many ways in terms of taxes-- I understand that we are no longer Eisenhower Republicans who paid in actual taxes about 36.6%, but if you want to Make America Great again perhaps the tax rates and salaries which were more equitable for all back when America was great, might be a clue.

khesanh0802 said...

A little off topic, but relevant to Trump. Mayo clinic has instituted a new policy that favors privately insured individuals versus publicly funded - i.e. Medicaid and Medicare. One more sign that the Obamacare "repeal/replace" bill will be getting support from the hospital industry. Link. During my annual check-up at a Mayo clinic I talked with my doctor about this. I live in rural SE Mn where there are a lot of Medicare and Medicaid patients. My doctor ( this was over a year ago) said that the the sharp pencil guys in Rochester were very concerned about the rural clinics' financial condition because of the number of government funded patients. He was afraid that they would begin shutting down rural clinics because their finances were unsustainable. This move looks like the first step toward that. A warning shot if you will.

Real American said...

You want more Trump? Because what you're doing [so-called "resistance"] gets more Trump.

Fernandinande said...

"What you resist not only persists, but will grow in size."

Obviously false.

Andrew Koenig said...
I continue to believe that what the Left is calling "resistance" is really impedance, because it has a real part and an imaginary part.


Heh.

antiphone said...

Look at this creep Auntie Phony.

Since this post concerns psychology what do you think your blogger icon says about you "Bad Lieutenant"?

Big Mike said...

@roesch, for a change I think you may be right -- for the wrong reason, of course -- but in the main correct. I see several signs that our current tax plans are on the left side of the inflection point in the Laffer Curve, and we can safely raise rates.

Where we are stupidly wrong is in our corporate tax rates. We incentivize corporations to leave money they make overseas outside the country, where if it is invested it is invested in things that benefit other countries and not us.

Bay Area Guy said...

I was so much older then, I'm Junger than that now.......

Big Mike said...

@Koenig, wonderful!

traditionalguy said...

Medicare is not Medicaide. I know this is hard to comprehend for the ignorant since they both start with Medic.

We pay a stiff tax for 40 to 50 years to get Medicare after age 65. That is not even being discussed to be cut except by treacherous RINO, Koch Brothers owned, creep who likes to screw up the GOP as a Moby pretending he is a conservative.

Medicaide is a State administered program to provide medical care for those without money, immigrants, refugees, and whomever, Trump wants to bloc grant the Federal part of the money to the States, effectively switching the control of amounts spent to the States.

khesanh0802 said...

@roesch The tax issue, both personal and corporate, is one of complexity as well as rate. Reducing the corporate rate - and reducing corporate welfare -should be the first priority. There are trillions being held by corporations that would give a great boost to the economy.

Personal income taxes need to be simplified. What the rates really should be are anybody's guess, but if we got rid of all the ridiculous deductions it would be a lot easier to determine what a correct rate might be.

Comparing today's conditions with the 50's is ludicrous. We had absolutely no economic competition in the world in the 50's. We could have done just about anything tax- wise and the economy would have grown because world -wide demand for American products was beyond our ability to fulfill. The Japanese were still making wind-up tin toys and the Germans were still trying to rebuild their housing stock.

Rae said...

Adapting to changing circumstances is generally a better strategy.

hombre said...

Democrats are attempting a political coup using morons in the streets, the GOPe, corrupt judges, the leftmedia and obstruction.

If Trump moves away from the GOPe gatekeepers of the swamp and tells the courts to piss off (think Lincoln, Jackson, Obama), it should not end well for the Dems. Otherwise, it will not end well for Trump.

Pressure McConnell to use the Reid rule. Push appointments through, particularly judicial. Get his non-swamp team in order. Stop playing the Dem/media game. Dump Obamacare back on Congress and demand a bipartisan solution. Give the SCOTUS 10 days to get their chickenshit judges in line and reinstate his order, or just ignore the lower court's obstruction. Hire Andrew McCarthy and Chris Adams into DOJ and, if possible, Rudy or Christie. Reopen the Hillary investigation. Build the wall.

Time to end the distractions. The media is just words and Trump voters despise them anyway.

EDH said...

"Resistance is futile"?

hombre said...

Look at the r/v/sunsong bullshit this morning. Wiretaps and global warming. Tax the rich (after a record-breaking 2016).

What do you boys(?) think about the recent employment indicators? Do you know there are employment indicators? How about the stock market or the record construction starts?

Should Trump follow illegal court orders?

Or would you rather stick to the unreal? (Rhetorical. We know.)

robother said...

"The old psychiatrist advice stop resisting sounds rather creepy. I'll be right there with you every step of the way — that's creepy too."

A lot of the stuff that sounds creepy coming from an old psychiatrist is seductive when said by a young strapping shrink. But Ann's Bullshit-o-mometer is set too low for any of it to work. Curse of the legal mind.

n.n said...

[class] diversity including racism and sexism is worth fighting.

social justice adventurism including wars of aggression, elective regime changes, and catastrophic anthropogenic immigration reform is worth fighting.

so is scientific mysticism including the prophecy of catastrophic anthropogenic global warming and other departures from the highly constrained scientific domain.

redisrtibutive change that sponsors corruption and enriches the minority rulers is worth fighting.

denying life unworthy... never again! baby steps.

so, we persist and strive, despite the discomfort... because of the discomfort caused by living with the twilight fringe, with the optimism that there is a dawn at the end of the tunnel.

AReasonableMan said...

Speaking of resisting reality:
White House APOLOGIZES to Britain over 'utterly ridiculous' claim that UK spies helped Obama tap Trump's calls

Does anyone still believe that Obama tapped Trump's wires?

TWW said...

I think you are being too hard on Psychologists and Psychiatrists.

My son has seen at least five in the last several years and, in my experience, they were all excellent...at collecting fees. What other profession can you charge +$300/hour without promising any deliverables; without defining success and failure in even abstract terms and delivered with all of the personal attention of a pest controller.

Unknown said...

After 8 years of obstruction (resistance) Republicans weren't harmed whatsoever. So I call bullshit on the theory that The Resistance is only driving more people into Trump's arms. They were always there to begin with. No one is being fooled here.

Darryl Thomas said...

Chickelit @ 9:36am:

"... you're only dancing on this earth for a short while..."

(Nice pull)

bagoh20 said...

The "problem" of income inequity is not due to to the rich getting richer, but rather everyone else not keeping up. That is a two fold issue

First, it has become very difficult for the unrich to get rich, including going through the middle on the way. The amount of modern regulation and its associated cost in fees, taxes, required cost of experts to negotiate the bureaucratic maze, and outright gaming of the system leave the path to wealth only available to already wealthy entrepreneurs or those who have an idea that does not involve hiring people. Hiring those people is how the poor get that first job, primary training, or the later jobs in the middle where starting capital and and skills are collected for their own shot at wealth.

Sure you can get rich by creating a new app, or social media platform, but that's like winning the lottery - a long shot only a few will taste.

The traditional and much more common way of starting a small business and hiring people who eventually follow in your footsteps has never been harder. The amount of lawyering, accounting, and other compliance work required of a start up now exceeds the actual hands on work and product creation that actually pays the bills.

Second, far too many of our fellow citizens and non-citizens just refuse to work, because they don't need to. The expansion of "safety nets" have created lazy people by the millions where they once did not exist, and those people are being paid with money that driven people could use to make themselves and others at the bottom wealthier though work. Sloth is stealing from ambition at a rate never seen before.

buwaya said...

Part of the problem with psychology is that psychologists not only have a narrow view of personal welfare, but they vastly overvalue it. "Our problems dont amount to a hill of beans" does not seem like it would satisfy psychologists or their patients, regardless of its truth.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"Does anyone still believe that Obama tapped Trump's wires?"

The thing that's interesting to me is that the White House was so quick to apologize after the brits denied the BS story.

But, for days (weeks?) the WH kept playing word games re BHO tapping DJT, even though the gov in question is their own gov. As if they don't know and can't figure out that BHO didn't tap (or surveil) DJT. They still won't apologize and correct their error/lie.

IOW, it's fine to lie to and mislead Americans. It's the art of the deal to peddle BS to us, but the WH feels compelled to quickly come clean and be truthful for foreigners, sans investigation. My preference would be to flip this, if the WH needs an outlet for inherent lie urges, look abroad. Since it's in short supply at the WH, save the truth for US.

antiphone said...

Part of the problem with psychology is that psychologists not only have a narrow view of personal welfare, but they vastly overvalue it.

In that case free market economic theory is in trouble as well.

AReasonableMan said...

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
IOW, it's fine to lie to and mislead Americans. It's the art of the deal to peddle BS to us, but the WH feels compelled to quickly come clean and be truthful for foreigners


This is a good point. I guess it could be argued that we know the Donald and consequently take his statements at a heavy discount whereas the poor benighted foreigners are working under the impression that he is the President of the United States, with all that normally entails.

rhhardin said...

I resist 90 degrees out of phase. It's less wasteful.

buwaya puti said...

I don't see why free market theory should care very much about the imperatives of personal psychology. More to the point, there really isn't much theory to economics that's worth the name.
It's all plain empiricism looking for intellectual cover, like a peasant girl wishing for fancy dress.

Unknown said...

"This is a good point. I guess it could be argued that we know the Donald and consequently take his statements at a heavy discount whereas the poor benighted foreigners are working under the impression that he is the President of the United States, with all that normally entails."

The rest of the world is either laughing at Trump or frightened of him. They think half of the US has lost their minds.

buwaya puti said...

The beauty of Obamacare was that it was deployed in stages, each of which made it progressively more difficult to reform. And the more it goes on the more ramshackle it gets, as well as even more difficult to reform.
It is interesting to see that the left does not bother to defend this atrocity anymore.

tcrosse said...

I resist 90 degrees out of phase. It's less wasteful.
Which gives you a Power Factor of zero.

tcrosse said...

The rest of the world is either laughing at Trump or frightened of him. They think half of the US has lost their minds
What will the neighbors think ?

Left Bank of the Charles said...

Have you considered that maybe they know what they are doing?

Let's say you are a far left winger who helped throw the election to Trump. You want to come to Washington to celebrate his victory, but you can't admit that publicly. So you organize a Women's March on Washington. The women are your beard. Happy times!

You know that Donald Trump won because you and a bunch of other Bernie supporters failed to show up and vote for Hillary Clinton and in a few key states organized secretly to vote for Trump. So you tell the exit pollsters you are white working class, and then make up a story about how Russia hacked the election. Two scapegoats for the price of one.

You need to keep Trump in office long enough to completely remake the Democratic Party. So you spike the Democratic cannons for 2018 and 2020 and burn out the old line Democrats with the persist / resist movement. You accuse Trump of lying about being wiretapped knowing that he was wiretapped and will eventually be able to prove his bullshit is true.

Sure, the Republicans will be in for 12 to 16 years, but you need that time to organize.

bagoh20 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bagoh20 said...

"The rest of the world is either laughing at Trump or frightened of him. They think half of the US has lost their minds."

The same people believe the likes of Angela Merkel and other European leaders who subject their own people to an influx of unsustainable poverty, hatred, rape and terror to be sane and wise. "Stupid is as stupid does."

FullMoon said...

Unknown said... [hush]​[hide comment]
... The rest of the world is either laughing at Trump or frightened of him. They think half of the US has lost their minds.


That is a lie. The people of the world love Trump. Establishment leftist press and governments do not.

If anything, the people of the world believe anyone who voted for Clinton are war mongers, haters, rioters, and intolerant of differing opinions.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...IOW, it's fine to lie to and mislead Americans. It's the art of the deal to peddle BS to us, but the WH feels compelled to quickly come clean and be truthful for foreigners, sans investigation.

It sounds like you're reading this one wrong, PB. Ben Rhodes BRAGGED about how successful the Obama Admin was at misleading Americans (on health care and the Iran deal). They laughed about it!
I don't think anyone in the intelligence field believes that allies don't help each other out with domestic surveillance. You know, the Brits can't spy on their own people and the Americans can't spy on Americans, but since Brits can spy on Americans and Americans can spy on Brits...well, informal deals are made. Off the books, unofficial, you understand. The key part is you're not supposed to talk about it! Trump publicly accused the Brit intel. people of sharing info on him w/the Obama admin people, and that accusation rests on admitting that our intel agencies do that kind of sharing (which they almost certainly do but certainly won't admit)...so that accusation had to be retracted. Which Trump promptly did.
Bad of him to make the accusation publicly, good of him to retract it (even though, as you point out, it makes him personally look silly).

Anyway I'm not sure "be truthful" is exactly the right phrase to use, here.

antiphone said...

The people of the world love Trump.

++Bigly. What's not to love.

Bad Lieutenant said...

roesch/voltaire said...
I don't think cutting taxes for the rich and raising the cost of medicaid for the elderly is a good thing for the country frankly. The rich have been doing rather well in many ways in terms of taxes-- I understand that we are no longer Eisenhower Republicans who paid in actual taxes about 36.6%, but if you want to Make America Great again perhaps the tax rates and salaries which were more equitable for all back when America was great, might be a clue.

3/17/17, 10:09 AM

You're entitled to lay that out and argue it, but there are so many assumptions packed into that little cliche that you seem politically constipated. Little more variety in your information and ideological diet might suit you.




Auntie Phony,

"Since this post concerns psychology what do you think your blogger icon says about you "Bad Lieutenant"?"

I'm not a psychologist, but...

What do YOU think it means?


buwaya said...

"quickly come clean and be truthful for foreigners"

There is no truth in foreign affairs, until, if making war in an alliance, your officers can count your allies bayonets - I think that was Metternicht.
And this is rarely the case, even in extremis.
There are simply fractal levels of untruth, layers of it, lies about lies about lies, and moreover you can't even entirely trust your own officers, agents and analysts.
For instance, it is impossible to know, for an outsider, whether Trumps statement was more or less true than the retraction, and its very unlikely that the administration can be certain either way.

n.n said...

there really isn't much theory to economics that's worth the name

It's a physical problem modeled as an adaptive system. Capitalism is a name attributed to a mostly organic system that is known to be incompletely or insufficiently characterized and unwieldy. So, the scientific philosophy advises a small step-size (e.g. avoid monopolies and practices, and monolithic solutions) and merit-based (i.e. fitness function) evolution in order to realize semi-stable, functional states.

n.n said...

Then there are smoothing functions (e.g. welfare, charity) to reduce discontinuities, but are known to sponsor corruption and spiritual destruction (i.e. nonlinearities, explosive products) over the long-term.

The physical theory of economics. Maybe I'll have time to elaborate later, but it should be self-evident to scientists and engineers.

Roughcoat said...

Have any of Jung's theories been shown to be anything more than speculation or pure fantasy? He was a fantasist, a dweller of Cloud Cuckoo Land, a storyteller, a mythmaker and constructor of metaphors disguised as theories. To be sure, metaphors are important, even vital, to the growth and development of both mind and intellect. But Jung's theories are not quantifiable, whereas other psychology theories have had their validity confirmed, to a greater or lesser degree, by the fact that they "worked."

buwaya said...

"a mythmaker and constructor of metaphors disguised as theories"

True.

"other psychology theories have had their validity confirmed"

Have they? We won't really know until the mechanics of the whole thing is exposed, neuron to neuron, the system hardware and software of the mind down to the "machine code".

buwaya said...

Until then I don't think we are dealing with knowledge as such as with kitchen-remedies, empirical knowledge, probabilities, shim it till it works better.

William said...

Obama cut the Medicare reimbursement rate for doctors by 15%. Some doctors, including my allergist, stopped seeing Medicare patients. You get what you pay for.......Many countries with free health care have, in effect, a two tier system. The free health care is substandard and marked with long waits and irritable practitioners. The second system, the one that people with money pay for, is kinder, gentler and with better outcomes. People with money get better care and do not have any conscience qualms about the uninsured.......Medicaid for the masses. I suppose for some millions this will be a step up, but for other millions this will represent a deterioration of service. The propaganda mills will tell happy stories about the former, but if you wait forever in a shabby clinic don't expect to see your plight dramatized in a Lifetime movie.......Resistance is a freighted word. It harkens back to those brave souls who fought against the Nazi occupation of their country. It can only be used to describe left wing opposition. When conservatives oppose a program, the proper word is reactionary.

antiphone said...

...whereas other psychology theories have had their validity confirmed, to a greater or lesser degree, by the fact that they "worked."

You mean the advertising industry?

buwaya said...

"but if you wait forever in a shabby clinic don't expect to see your plight dramatized in a Lifetime movie"

The NHS is a perennial press-scandal generator in the UK, about exactly that sort of problem.

robother said...

Jung vs. Freud. New Age vs. The Talking Cure. Which has produced the most economic value (as measured by cash value of contributions vs fees) over the last 100 years? According to economic theory, isn't that the only test of validity?

Roughcoat said...

Have they? We won't really know until the mechanics of the whole thing is exposed, neuron to neuron, the system hardware and software of the mind down to the "machine code".

Some of them, yes. We know they work, even if we don't know why they work. I'm living proof, e.g., of the efficacy of Acceptance Commitment Therapy, which is a subset of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Researchers in the field say it works by re-wiring the brain. They don't know how the brain re-wires itself as a result of using CBT/ACT methods, but they do know that re-wiring does indeed take place. The proof is in the results. But we also have graphic evidence of it, in the form of before/after brain imaging.

Same goes for various medications such as prozac, zoloft, etc. They affect brain chemistry hence behavior usually (yes, I know there are exceptions) in the manner desired. It is not known how they affect brain chemistry, just that they do. Of course there's a whole lot of discussion about neurons and receptors and yadda yadda, but nobody has yet been able to connect all the dots. But the results speak for themselves.

CBT/ACT theory, diligently applied, saved my life and made me a happy man. Trump winning the presidency and the Cubs winning the World Series also made me happy, but without ACT I don't think I would have been as happy as I am now.

buwaya said...

Well, Roughcoat, thats certainly on the spectrum of empirical remedies.
Sort of like Edward Jenners' vaccination. It worked, it saved countless lives, but it took at least another century to get some idea why, and another century to have some deep understanding of it.

Roughcoat said...

Re Jung: I like him, a lot. I find him very inspirational, especially when it comes to writing speculative fiction or writing anything for that matter, or even when just trying to be more creative and in one's everyday endeavors. I think he was on to something with his ideas about the importance of meaning in human development. He understood things Freud didn't, in particular that it was more important to a live a meaningful life than a happy life, and probably more realizable to do so. He understood that meaning in life produces something similar to happiness, that it was itself a species of happiness. But there is nothing scientific about all this. The idea of a collective unconscious is wonderfully enthralling and stimulating to one's creativity and quest for meaning, but there is absolutely no hard evidence for its existence.

antiphone said...

Which has produced the most economic value (as measured by cash value of contributions vs fees) over the last 100 years? According to economic theory, isn't that the only test of validity?

No, economic value is not the metric to test of the validity of a theory. Commercial success is not the measure of truth. Economic theory has to do with analyzing and describing economic behavior, by looking at statistics and coming up with with concepts like supply and demand.

buwaya said...

" in particular that it was more important to a live a meaningful life than a happy life, and probably more realizable to do so. "

Stoics

"The idea of a collective unconscious is wonderfully enthralling and stimulating to one's creativity and quest for meaning, but there is absolutely no hard evidence for its existence.'

There is however a collective consciousness, which has a huge effect on the individual.
And that has piles of cultural capital in back of it, that whole ancestral business. Psychology doesn't really deal scientifically with that either, though its real.

David said...

Of course, if it turns out that Trump was right, they are going to have to kill him. They will have nothing else left.

Roughcoat said...

There is however a collective consciousness, which has a huge effect on the individual.

That's not consciousness in the Jungian sense. That's culture. When Jung spoke of a collective unconscious he was articulating the idea of an actual mind -- an entity with volition and sentience -- that existed in real terms along with but outside the individual mind. The two minds were linked, each giving access to the other.

Of course, the question of what constitutes mind is an unresolved issue.

antiphone said...

The work of both Freud and Jung are routinely dismissed and distorted by people who think they are beyond such antiquated ideas. Unfortunately, we live in a psychological dark age dominated by the very limited scope of behaviorism as practiced by the pharmaceutical industry.

Roughcoat said...

I'm not sure that Jung's quest-for-meaning concepts can or should be associated with stoicism. Is stoicism a path to real meaning or is it a sort of calm surrender to what one perceives as the fact meaninglessness? I don't know enough about stoicism to say.

Roughcoat said...

The work of both Freud and Jung are routinely dismissed and distorted by people who think they are beyond such antiquated ideas.

Those people are in good company: Jung rejected -- dismissed, if you will -- certain of Freud's theories. Although I would not characterize his rejection as "routine."

buwaya said...

"When Jung spoke of a collective unconscious he was articulating the idea of an actual mind -- an entity with volition and sentience -- that existed in real terms along with but outside the individual mind."

This was Jung's supernatural argument. A disembodied mind to which we have some sort of immaterial connection. This is hard to swallow as a non-religious concept.
If you want to go into the supernatural, or religious, I am convinced of divine and satanic influence in this world, but thats another matter.

buwaya said...

"Unfortunately, we live in a psychological dark age"

I don't think so - we are rather in the renaissance of the mind, where there are the beginnings of a science of the brain. And the "kitchen science" part of this is coming along fairly well also. We are way better at "do this, and that happens - usually".

antiphone said...

...an actual mind -- an entity with volition and sentience --...


I think this is a stretch, at least the way I would interpret the collective unconscious. One thing it's important remember is that these ideas evolved over time. For example Freud eventually stopped using the term unconscious and replaced it with preconscious. The word "ego" was a coined in the translation from German to English and is almost universally used incorrectly.

When thinking about the collective unconscious I think it's necessary to think about the superego and the evolutionary value such a cognitive structure would have.

Roughcoat said...

buwaya @1:48:

Agreed.

William said...

I recently read Chernow's biography of Rockefeller. Rockefeller's daughter had a number of psychological problems. She mustered sufficient courage to overcome her agoraphobia and went to Geneva to seek therapy and insight from Jung. She never really overcame her problems. In Geneva she lived almost exclusively in her hotel suite. When you're the daughter of the world's richest man, the therapist will make house calls. The therapy worked to some extent. Although she never got over her agoraphobia, Jung certified her as a therapist, competent to deliver his treatment model. This cheered her up and gave meaning to her life. The Rockefeller daughter,in turn, bought Jung a mansion in Geneva to use as a foundation home for his further research. The economic benefits of Jungian therapy cannot be underestimated, particularly for Carl Jung.

John said...

"You Only Get More of What You Resist—Why?"

A physicist rather than a psychologist would quote you Newton's 3rd Law.

Lance said...

Sales are down now that Pres. Obama is no longer resisting firearms ownership.

Hat tip Federalist via Instapundit.

n.n said...

psychological dark age

A twilight faith, scientific mysticism (e.g assumptions/assertions of linearity, invariance, progress), conflation of logical domains, and a Pro-Choice quasi-religious/moral outlook.

n.n said...

We won't really know until the mechanics of the whole thing is exposed

Not even then. It is not possible to discern between origin and expression in the scientific domain. Ever since people inferred the existence of matter and energy, and confirmed it to a functional extent, there has developed a belief system that human perception and causality are unbounded. The corruption of science and human life for political progress was the cause and effect of secular conflation of logical domains.

buwaya said...

"Jung certified her as a therapist, competent to deliver his treatment model."

This is a clue - university psychology programs may be a hidden form of therapy for the troubled, giving meaning to their lives precisely as with la Rockefeller.

buwaya said...

"It is not possible to discern between origin and expression in the scientific domain."

I don't imagine the question is on such a rarefied level. Nor its application. I'm an engineer. I'm all about doing things.

Your Siemens PLC, say, has, on occasion, squirrelly output, making the machine it controls behave not as desired. You understand the hardware, the OS, the app, and you have code for this - or all the appropriate people do, and understand it. Between the lot of them we can figure out why its going on, and voila, someone has a patch and all is put right.

So, for the human brain, if properly understood, completely, like that PLC, you could write a patch for, say, schizophrenia, or depression. If you understood the hardware and software thoroughly you could give it an upgrade and make it run better, or better for your purposes. You could design interfaces and write compatible drivers for equipment beyond the meat-machine of the human body - external data storage for instance.

veni vidi vici said...

Progress for her party's campaign coffers, that might otherwise be moribund if rank and filers took a chance on the least-ideological president to be elected in several decades if not all time, and tried to advance commonsense consensus issues through good faith engagement, negotiation and compromise.

She'll be with them, her hands in their pockets, every step of the way.

veni vidi vici said...

This is the real problem with people who've built their entire careers and raison d'etre on politics. After their moment has passed, they don't have anything else they're capable of doing / retreating to, so they hang around like old ghosts in dowagers' mansions.

Amber Cat said...

Can you provide a citation for the following purported quotation by Carl Jung?

“What you resist not only persists, but will grow in size.”

Ann Althouse said...

@Amber Cat

I'm kind of trusting Psychology Today, but like you, I am suspicious. It doesn't produce anything authoritative when searched in Google Books. Maybe he didn't say/write it. But it exists — and preexists the current resist/persist rhyming — as at least an apocryphal Jung quote.