March 22, 2017

I watched some, but nothing close to all, of the Gorsuch hearing.

I mostly watched the Al Franken excoriation, but also, merely by chance, some of Hatch and Cruz softball interludes.

It is, of course, what I expected (as briefly outlined in "Can we expect the Gorsuch hearings to be anything but bland blather?").

Gorsuch is doing the usual routine as well as it can be done. He looks great. Wonderful voice. Not only unflappable but never giving rise even to the slightest anxiety/hope that he could become less than rock-solid unflappable.

The Democrats on the committee know there's no stopping him, so what are they doing? Each one gets so much time to labor through their questions, which — if I can judge from Franken — all seem to be paraphrasable as: Aren't you a big meanie who, like all Republicans, hates the little guy and wouldn't shed a tear if he froze to death before your very eyes?



The Democrats need to do some theater, enough to skirt criticism from their base. It's a little tricky. If they bear down, they look like they're politicizing the judiciary, and every damn time Gorsuch will deploy one of his 10 elegant ways to inform them — as if they're the slowest learners on the planet — that it is not the role of the judiciary to engage in politics.

I can only take so much, but I did watch Franken. You can watch the clip and hear him go on and on about a man who got fired for driving a truck — despite its malfunctioning brakes — because he was freezing and the truck would warm him up. [NOTE: That's not quite right, as explained under  "ADDED," below.] There was a statute that protected truck drivers from getting fired for refusing to drive a malfunctioning truck, but this was the opposite. His employer wanted him not to drive the malfunctioning truck, and he did it anyway, to save himself from freezing (or so we are told).

The legal question was only whether the statute applied, not whether we feel sorry for the man or whether we would have fired him. Judge Gorsuch used the plain meaning of the statute. But judges might depart from the plain meaning of the text when it is necessary to avoid giving the language an absurd meaning, but it's obvious that the statute had a non-absurd meaning (which was to protect drivers who decline to drive defective trucks). But Franken, blatantly twisting the meaning of "absurd" — and reminding us that he was once a comedian — said:
“It is absurd to say this company is in its rights to fire him because he made the choice of possibly dying from freezing to death or causing other people to die possibly by driving an unsafe vehicle. That’s absurd. Now, I had a career in identifying absurdity. And I know it when I see it. And it makes me question your judgment.”
If that's what counts as "absurd," then judges could take any statute and twist it to mean whatever it would need to mean to allow them to bestow victory on any party the judge feels empathy with. That's a terrible idea for statutory interpretation. But Franken was into his own cuteness, chuckling at the wittiness of "I had a career in identifying absurdity." But the absurdity is in thinking that the ways of comedy would transfer to legal analysis.

And did Franken even hear himself? He said it was absurd to fire a man who chose his own life over the lives of others: "the choice of possibly dying from freezing to death or caus[ing] other people to die possible by driving an unsafe vehicle." What's absurd about saying we don't want you driving for us if you'd choose to warm yourself up by driving a truck with defective brakes? The truck driver risked freezing to death if he didn't drive the truck, but driving the truck risked the death of himself and others. It's not absurd to say, he was wrong to drive the truck.

But even if you think it would be absurd not to drive the truck, the truck driver could only win if the statute that protected drivers who refused to drive defective trucks has only an absurd meaning if it's not stretched to protect drivers who don't refuse to drive defective trucks.

Gorsuch put up with the nonsense and didn't let all that taunting exasperate him. He knew that any show of irritation with Franken, any patronizing tone, might look like that lack of empathy Franken wanted to dramatize.

In Franken's heat about cold, Gorsuch kept his cool.

ADDED: I've got something really wrong about the case. The brakes on the trailer had locked, but the tractor unit could drive. Somehow the heat in the tractor unit was also broken. The man decided to unhitch the trailer and drive the tractor unit. The tractor unit itself was not defective, and he wasn't endangering others by driving that tractor unit in an effort to get somewhere to warm himself. But he disobeyed directions to stay with the trailer, and that's what got him fired. But the problem remains: He wasn't refusing to drive something that was defective. He was choosing to drive. We may agree that he made a good decision and think the company was cruel to fire him, but the legal question was whether he had a right to keep his job for doing something the company thought was a firing offense — abandoning the trailer.

Here's a detailed discussion of the legal question that brings out the issues much better than Franken did. I'm sorry I relied too much on Franken's emotive presentation of the case. There may have been some room to stretch the statute to give the man credit for refusing to pull the trailer (as he proceeded to drive the unhitched tractor unit). In fact, as you can see at that link, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration had interpreted the statute that way. This gets to the important subject of deferring to the agency's interpretation (Chevron deference), which is what the majority did in the case. Gorsuch was dissenting.

ALSO: While empathy has been central to the Democrats' idea of judging and this case gave Franken material to push that theme dramatically, it's the Chevron deference question that is most important from a legal perspective. Here's lawprof Philip Hamburger in "Gorsuch’s Collision Course With the Administrative State." Hamburger concludes:
Chevron is a widely cited precedent, and precedents should never be casually overturned. But Chevron deprives Americans of their right to have judges who exercise their own independent judgment without systematic bias. Chevron is thus grossly unconstitutional — not least, a persistent denial of the due process of law.

Judges have a duty to reject Chevron with candor and clarity. Judge Gorsuch has done this. Rather than be berated for it, he should be congratulated.

237 comments:

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Birkel said...

@ so called Chuck

But you are completely credulous about whether Judge Gorsuch actually meant that he was disheartened and demoralized. You are telling me that a grown man was either of those things because of the words of another grown man?

Are you serious? Do you know a single man that, on the basis of words by another person, would be disheartened and demoralized? Really?

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the sort of person you envision Gorsuch to be, and still want him on the Court.

Kyzer SoSay said...

"La Raza" is a dog whistle, an ACTUAL dog whistle, unlike all the imaginary ones that the Left attributes to the Right. Any Hispanic seeing an org with the name La Raza in it's title is going to instinctively know that that org is geared towards representing the interests of Hispanics/Latinos, including illegal immigrants.

Any judge who is a member of any "La Raza"-branded org should be fired.

Birkel said...

@ so called Chuck

So a judge who is a member of "The Race" group is copacetic? What other racists are cool by you?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

We specifically test for heel spurs by having recruits walk on their heels, just like we test for Osgood-Schlatters disease by having them knee walk.>

Those are both legit reasons to be rejected for the draft. To make fun of these conditions is ignorant.

@Michael K

Back in the Vietnam era (1968)my husband's number was called up for the draft. Being young, working in the logging industry (choke setter and felling)in his Dad's company, he was extremely physcially fit, not in college that year...so no deferment.

Going into the physical the doctor said...OK. What is wrong with YOU? I guess the doctor was sick of all the whiners and people faking and assumed that my husband was going to lay out a line of bull.
Husband (to be) said..Not a damned thing.

Doctor was incredulous. Nothing????

He: Well....except for this knee thing that I got when my prick of a cousin kicked me in the knee because I got to use the tractor first when we were 8. Sometimes that hurts.

Doctor: what is it.

He: I dunno...some Slather thing that makes like a jelly on my knee sometimes. No big deal I can still fall trees. I'm good to go

Doctor: Osgood Schlatter?

He: Yes, that's it.

Doctor: You're out. Next

He wanted to serve. The knee/shin still bothers him when he has to kneel and forgets to bring his kneeling pad.

Drago said...

Unknown: "Good try Disinformation Troll Drago, but wrong. Trump may have been caught on intercepts with foreign agents incidentally which prompted a deeper investigation based on what was being discussed.

How much do the Ruskies pay you? Just kidding... maybe"

Nunes is saying these "incidental" events are NOT related to any Russia investigation.

Oops!

"lifelong republican" Chucks work is really, really cut out for him now. How to protect so many dems at once? He will need to get really creative.

Chuck said...

"...you just want to broadcast your own superior virtue..."

That is such a low bar for several of the regulars here, I think I'd have to agree with that.

I am here to blow off steam from my own personal rage at the amazing stupidity and hatefulness of Donald Trump. I do get fired up, from the patently false claims that I must be a leftist of some kind. I don't even get that, given the absolute consistency of my (1) supporting conservatives and conservative causes and (2) my laser-focused criticisms of Donald Trump, on almost exclusively personal grounds.

This blog has taken on a bit of the air of a sports team fansite. Where all of your guys' sins are explained away, ignored or forgiven. And all of your rivals' sins are magnified, even exaggerated, and made the subject of warm togetherness.

I see this happen on lots of sports message boards and blogs. Like-minded fans of the same team use it as a gathering place, to shoot the breeze, joke, relax, and even say a few intemperate things that couldn't be justified to opponents but hey, we're all on the same side here, right?

I don't want a friendly bar to shoot the breeze. I want a courtroom, to smash competing ideas against each other to strip things down to essential accuracy. I want all of the stupid and silly and refutable ideas to get exposed. And the accurate and realistic ones to prevail. A zero-sum game, with winners and losers.

I'm not here to help anybody, or build anything. I am not selling clever team t-shirts, or trucker hats, or directing you to my Amazon portal. I want to expose, and be exposed to, the best information and ideas.

Todd said...

Michael K said...

Now, we have kids lying to get in instead of lying to get out. You can't fake not having heel spurs. Even if you want to get in, not out.

3/22/17, 1:33 PM


When I went through my physical, I was VERY worried that my eye sight was too poor to pass the test, this was in the early 80s. There were quite a number of young men that failed the physical as well as the eye test and were sent home. Lucky for me my vision was correctable to 20/20. The rest they say is history...

Drago said...

"lifelong republican" Chuck: "This blog has taken on a bit of the air of a sports team fansite."

It's not our fault your dem team is taking hits today.

Drago said...

Birkel: "Have you ever thought how you might feel if Congressman Nunes comes out and says the Trump Transition Team was surveilled?"

"lifelong republican" Chuck will simply shift from "dem protection" mode to attack mode to go after Nunes.

It depends on what the Maddow/DNC/Media Matters gang want.

Chuck said...

Birkel said...
@ so called Chuck

Have you ever thought how you might feel if Congressman Nunes comes out and says the Trump Transition Team was surveilled?

Besides 'The Race' what other racist organizations are cool?

When you call Judge Gorsuch a wilting violet because of harsh words, do you want to diminish his support? I'm not sure a guy who wants to "smash competing ideas" should support Gorsuch if he is as you describe him.


Apart from just two words -- two words that were never misrepresented -- I don't know what Gorsuch really feels. Of course I did not call Gorsuch a wilting violet. That is another one of your deliberate, rank mischaracterizations of almost nothing that I said or intended.

I have what I think is an excellent idea of what Gorsuch feels, insofar as I have one friend who is a judge on the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals and two friends who are U.S. District Court judges in the Eastern District of Michigan. And I know that their general feeling is a mixture of bemusement (they are all Republicans) and disgust (they are all experienced lawyers and judges) and abhorrence in that nobody in the profession should expect to get away with such language and not take a hit. A reputational hit, mostly, since none of us would think that Trump would actually be reprimanded by a bar association for his words (but of course none of us can picture Trump being a member of the bar, and not acting like he does if he were a member of the bar). Trump is not a lawyer (lol; he's not even a good client) but since he is now president, he ought to at least try to act the part if he has to deal with the DoJ and the federal courts.

I don't much care what happens with Trump in any investigation. I might be delighted if Trump got indicted, convicted, impeached, whatever. But more than anything, I'd never want Trump to be falsely accused of anything. I want only the best, drop-dead, stone-cold charges brought against anybody, including Trump and anybody in Trump's orbit.

I do not want to have to argue with you nitwits about how a rigged process got Trump.

Birkel said...

@ so called Chuck

Any man that is disheartened, truly loses heart, because of the words of another man is not worthy of consideration for any position of trust. It is an untenable position to believe Gorsuch was doing anything beyond saying what was politically expedient, unless you believe him a wilting violet.

You are a sad individual.

Drago said...

"lifelong republican" Chuck: "But more than anything, I'd never want Trump to be falsely accused of anything"

You reveled in the obviously fake "dossier".

Reveled.

You traffic in rumors about children.

But hey, you wouldn't want Trump to be accused of anything false...besides what you traffic in.

Too many data points in the other direction for you to pull that one out of your hat.

Todd said...

Chuck said...

You, and the pro-Trump assclowns like you, have already been shot down on Judge Gonazalo Curiel's membership in "La Raza."

...

In short, your blandly misleading claim that Curiel was a member of a radical Latino organization called "La Raza" is a bit like mistaking the Ku Klux Klan for the Wu Tang Klan.

3/22/17, 1:11 PM


Well...

Meet The Pro-Illegal Immigrant Groups The La Raza Lawyers Of San Diego Consider Part Of Their ‘Community’

The San Diego La Raza Lawyers Association (SDLRLA), the group which Trump University lawsuit Judge Gonzalo Curiel is a member of, considers various pro-illegal immigrant organizations as part of its “community.”

The SDLRLA’s website includes a side-panel on their site titled “Community” which includes links to a variety of groups, including the National Council of La Raza.

“Please note, the San Diego Lawyers Association is not affiliated with the National La Raza Council,” the president of the SDLRLA, Luis O. Osuna, told The Daily Caller in a statement. However, this link is not the only connection between the SDLRLA and the National Council of La Raza. The San Diego previously publicized a La Raza announcement in 2012 about gay marriage.

The SDLRLA is also an affiliate of the Hispanic National Bar Association. The former president of this group, Rafael Santiago, was on the board of the National Council of La Raza. La Raza views itself as a non-radical Latino advocacy group, but Hispanic civil rights leader Cesar Chavez called the movement “anti-gringo.”

“I hear more and more Mexicans talking about la raza—to build up their pride, you know,” Chavez said, according to a 1969 New Yorker profile. “Some people don’t look at it as racism, but when you say ‘la raza,’ you are saying an anti-gringo thing, and it won’t stop there.”

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/06/meet-the-pro-illegal-immigrant-groups-the-la-raza-lawyers-of-san-diego-consider-part-of-their-community/#ixzz4c5RUbpHl


But sure, not related at all...

Drago said...

And now we have Nunes telling us in a very veiled fashion that the individuals, properly credentialed members of the intelligence community and with the appropriate security clearances, were the ones who brought him the information about the now indisputable surveillance of Trump transition team members.

So, it HAD to be a WHISTLEBLOWER or two (or more) who came forward.

My my. What have we here?

A non-FISA, non-Russia investigation dissemination of communications intercepted by multiple members of the Trump transition team.

And over the months from November, December and January.

Gee, I wonder what it is about those months that made it so imperative, so incredibly important, so amazingly "immediate" that all this raw information be captured regarding so many members of the Trump transition team?

Hmmmm, what is it about November thru January? Hmmmm.

Hey, wasn't that during the non-stop dem/MSM/"lifelong republican" campaign against Trump where all kinds of Russian rumors were floated and used to attack Trump all the while innuendo-laden leaks and talking points circulated that Trump was a Traitor involved in collusion and should be stopped from taking power?

Why yes, yes it was.

Isn't that just a really interesting.....coincidence?

Drago said...

I can't wait to see the coming defense of the dems that "lifelong republican" Chuck must already be conjuring up.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Chuck wrote: "I want all of the stupid and silly and refutable ideas to get exposed."

Yours get exposed quite frequently. Michael K. blew your silly slur about Trump's "fake" bone spurs right out of the water for instance. You just move on to the next dumb smear you picked up at MSNBC or the WaPo or some other sewer.

It's rich, seeing you pose here as a disinterested Seeker of Truth, when it's obvious to everyone else here that you are as unhinged and vicious in your hatred of Trump as Ashley Judd although you are slightly more intelligent.

Michael McNeil said...

Racist leftists love parroting their oh-so-humorous meme that Clarence Thomas is just “dumb” — as if a justice's habit of questioning (or not) at oral arguments totally reveals the man (it doesn't) — notably without ever examining Thomas's arguments as expressed in actual (gasp!) court cases. In one case in particular — Gonzales v. Raich (2005) — Thomas reveals that his “originalist” constitutional principles are far more central to his core intellectual values than was the case for Scalia, who it turned out was willing to betray those principles when the subject happed to be icky (i.e., medical marijuana in this case).

Me, if I was Trump and John Roberts' seat on the Court became vacant, I'd appoint Thomas Chief Justice and then put some other Gorsuch-like in his old seat. Let Democrats and the left dare to try to trash him a second time!

Meanwhile, this piece, by Yale professor Walter Russell Mead, concerning Clarence Thomas's potential impact in the future — though it dates from 2011, I think is even more apt today than it was back when Professor Mead composed it.

Anonymous said...

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/03/scotus-just-issued-a-decision-gutting-a-gorsuch-opinion.html

"This morning, just as day three of Gorsuch’s confirmation hearings began, SCOTUS released a unanimous opinion in a special-education case arising in Colorado that overturned a Tenth Circuit decision that in turn relied on a 2008 opinion written by — you guessed it — Neil Gorsuch To make a long and complicated story short, SCOTUS decided that a Tenth Circuit standard for school districts applying the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) that required them only to add some limited value to the educational attainments of special ed students was in error and denied these students their right to a individualized plan and a real chance to progress. That now-overturned standard was most clearly articulated, and arguably was developed, by Gorsuch."

Anonymous said...

Actually Disinformation Troll Drago, you know nothing of the sort. Do you speak with a Russian tongue?

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Jeez, Inga, what's it with the Russians? Did a Russian shoot a Nazi relative of yours or something?

Michael K said...

The knee/shin still bothers him when he has to kneel and forgets to bring his kneeling pad.

Osgood-Schlatters usually goes away and if it doesn't the orthopods can screw the tibial tubercle onto the tibia and that fixes it.

If it still bothers him, he might check.

Inga is now the law professor. Good job, Inga !

Unknown said...

As truck drivers we are trained to deal with the issue of frozen brakes. They aren't dangerous they are costly. One thing you do is drive or rock back and forth till the ice breaks up and/or crawl under the trailer and break the ice by hand. The question of the weather is bs because he had all kinds of options, you would have called about a billion times an hour if your heater wasn't working. I have had been in a frozen truck so I know;plus was it a day cab, or did it have a sleeper. With a sleeper it has its own independent heater that he could use. Plus they didn't say why the company did fired him. Was it because it was he had a high value load? (which drivers are responsible). Was it because he didn't do his basic duty? Was he fired because he was parked illegally? For breaks to freeze that takes time. So where was he coming from? Was it a truck stop? A clients yard?
Truck driving slowly down a highway isn't hard to see and while I am sure it happens cars don't rear end trucks for the most part. They are hard to miss.
The rest are attempts at gotchas by Al Franken and he isn't very good at it.

Bruce Hayden said...

Not really anything new with surveillance. We pretty much knew that some of this was going on with the Flynn controversy. The Russian ambassador has likely been surveiled at least since FISA was enacted some 40 years ago. The issue is that civilian names have been illegally disclosed or unmasked.

n.n said...

The dissent is evidence that Gorsuch is not Pro-Choice. His position is that the law can be unambiguously interpreted without resort to emotional appeals and the twilight fringe. As a justice, he would argue against violation of human and civil rights, and scientific fact, under the bastardized meanings of privacy and Choice. He would argue against "=" and other judgments for selective exclusion, [class] diversity, female chauvinism, and social justice adventurism. He would oppose elective regime changes, extrajudicial trials, catastrophic anthropogenic immigration reform (e.g. refugee crises), and other efforts to bypass the plain meaning of the law, especially when influenced by foreign powers, and done to disenfranchise American citizens (i.e. the People and our Posterity, and those naturalized through a process established by Congress). The invocation of Pro-Choice has caused greater violations (and loss) of human and civil rights and is therefore the subject of living interpretations of law. The conclusion is that judges should refrain from improvisation and legislatures should either defer from passing legislation or improve the legislative product.

Drago said...

Bruce Hayden: "Not really anything new with surveillance. We pretty much knew that some of this was going on with the Flynn controversy. The Russian ambassador has likely been surveiled at least since FISA was enacted some 40 years ago. The issue is that civilian names have been illegally disclosed or unmasked."

It's much more than that.

First, it appears that it was "whistleblowers" who brought the information to Nunes.

Think about that for a second. Not the Intelligence agency heads, but whistleblowers.

Further, this is the first time, to our "outsider" knowledge, that information related to these investigations/surveillance etc has been shared with the Republicans.

Up to now, information was making it's way into the press and the dems seemed oddly well informed.

But not the republicans or the Trump admin.

Secondly, if you watched the "Schiff-ty" press conference, li'l Adam is hopping mad that he doesn't know what is in the information bundle that Nunes received. Further, Schiff-ty seemed very very upset that the Trump admin was informed about what documents might exist and where those documents exist.

Looks like the jig is up for the dems/MSM/"lifelong republicans" whereby only the dems have access to information and selectively leak it.

My favorite part of all this is the Nunes was smart enough to NOT share with the dems what he now knows, and what the Trump admin now knows!

What that means is the embedded lefties will not know what they can cover up and/or destroy without being called out.

Perfect.

Michael K said...

"The issue is that civilian names have been illegally disclosed or unmasked."

Yup, and somebody needs to go to prison.

I've always liked "Ice Road Truckers" and that is serious heater issues.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

"The issue is that civilian names have been illegally disclosed or unmasked."

You know nothing of the sort. There is a legal way to unmask according to the reports coming out this afternoon. We don't know if any unmasking was done at all, much less illegally.

Drago said...

And now Comey's refusal to answer whether or not there was an investigation into the leakers (who clearly committed felonies) AND Nunes comments today that the FBI is refusing to cooperate with the House committee becomes much more understandable.

Odds are there is no investigation into the leakers because the FBI does not want to find the leakers and there is now a paper trail of a lack of paper trail showing precisely that: the failure to even investigate the leaks.

Just think about: the FBI is REFUSING, and has been refusing all along, to cooperate with the oversight committees.

Well well well.

This looks to be at least a 4-winebox night for Unknown.

Chuck said...

Birkel said...
@ so called Chuck

Any man that is disheartened, truly loses heart, because of the words of another man is not worthy of consideration for any position of trust. It is an untenable position to believe Gorsuch was doing anything beyond saying what was politically expedient, unless you believe him a wilting violet.

You are a sad individual.


Well like you I don't think that Gorsuch was really feeling anything like what you describe.

And like you, I think that "disheartening" and "demoralizing" were figures of speech, to put a polite spin on what Gorsuch was really thinking. And what Gorsuch was really thinking was that Trump's judge Tweets were just stupid and inexcusable. Remember that Blumenthal wanted Gorsuch to say more, and be clearer, at that time.

hombre said...

Chuck: "You simply cannot find anything "leftist" that I have E-V-E-R written on Althouse comments pages."

Sorry to butt in. It's not as though "leftists" or Democrats ever offer any penetrating wisdom about anything. They have nothing wise to say. All they do is rail about Trump incessantly, fisk any resistance and predict doom if he is not exercised immediately.

Sound familiar?

hombre said...

Chuck: "This blog has taken on a bit of the air of a sports team fansite. Where all of your guys' sins are explained away, ignored or forgiven. And all of your rivals' sins are magnified, even exaggerated, and made the subject of warm togetherness."

I think you are mistaken about that. Outside of reacting negatively to the insane rage directed at Trump by Democrats and the left media, very few, if any, commenters here speak glowingly about Trump as a person and most of us wish he would stop the tweeting - unless it is part of a long term strategy to bury the mediaswine.

Personally, and I doubt I'm unique, I am rooting for Trump to succeed and to prevail over the swamp. If he doesn't, I doubt anyone ever will. I also suspect that if he fit my picture of "more presidential" he would have no chance to deliver.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Chuck driveled:

Now; I want you to picture me, jabbing my finger into your sternum with each syllable of those sentences.
3/22/17, 1:20 PM

Oh my God, Chuck, come to New York and jab me in the sternum with your finger, while saying anything whatsoever. Please oh please oh please. Hurry up, run!

Birkel said...

@ Chuck, so called

Are you saying you took Gorsuch seriously but not literally? Putz!

mockturtle said...

I also suspect that if he fit my picture of "more presidential" he would have no chance to deliver.

L'audace! Toujours l'audace!

Anonymous said...

Curious George said...
Ann Althouse said...
"Typical left-wing cant."

You mean cunt, right?

--------

Knowing her (an entitled cant) and her audience, the answer to your question must be "yes."

Bruce Hayden said...

"unmask according to the reports coming out this afternoon. We don't know if any unmasking was done at all, much less illegally."

Read the statute (without looking it up, I think that it is 50 USC 1801, et seq). It is called minimumization, and must be done unless it can be shown that the US Person is engaged in terrorism or conspiring against the US. And that doesn't mean conspiring against Obama, Crooked Hillary, or the DNC.

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