February 6, 2017

"3 Professors Are Fasting to Protest Their University's 'Silence' on the Travel Ban."

The 3 professors — at Clemson — are Todd G. May (philosophy), Chenjerai Kumanyika (popular culture), and Michael Sears (biology).

Professor May wrote:
The university's position is that it will not make a political statement.... [But] the university is taking a political stand. By refusing to speak publicly and cooperating with the ban, it is normalizing a situation in which its own students and alumni are being subject to egregious conduct.... I often disagree that it is always the case that silence is consent. In this case, however, silence is very much consent.

140 comments:

Jack Wayne said...

So, damned if you do, damned if you don't. But I suspect that if the university backed Trump, they would be double-damned.

chuck said...

Statement made. Shrug.

David Begley said...

Maybe Trump is right on the law. I agree with the federal judge in Boston.

Let's see how long this fast lasts. More Trump Derangement Syndrome.

MikeR said...

I think it would be more effective if they would take a hike.

Clyde said...

So much credentialed education, so little common sense.

Rae said...

If they were real leftists, they'd set themselves on fire.

rehajm said...

A political fast is more effective if there's a chance the faster will starve to death for the cause. These guys are quitting on Sunday. So, really more of a juice cleanse for justice.

Michael K said...

The question is whether this is pure brainless leftism or if there is a reason behind it.

The Seattle judge's order is about H1B visas. Do these guys have an iron in that fire ?

Nonapod said...

What exactly is this "egregious conduct" that "students and alumni are being subject to"?

rhhardin said...

I have never, right from way back in Northern Ireland, understood hunger strikes.

Don't eat. Fine.

rcocean said...

"I have never, right from way back in Northern Ireland, understood hunger strikes."

Same here. You want to starve to death? Go at it.

Bad Lieutenant said...

I invariably hope for hunger strikers to surrender, die, or be force fed. I don't know why. It rubs me the wrong way.

tim in vermont said...

"If you are not with us, you're against us."

-G W Bush

Gusty Winds said...

Fasting is a temporary refrain from eating. A hunger strike is the willingness to starve yourself to death (Bobby Sands).

This is purposefully being called a fast. It is temporary. I don't think a philosophy and popular culture professor are going to risk their cush life for anyone or any cause.

I am however amazed at the left wing one-upsmanship regarding Trump hysteria. Let the self immolations begin.




n.n said...

Will no one fast to protest the anthropogenic forcing of immigration reform including refugee crises?

Whether it is labor arbitrage, demographic change, or a cover-up of collateral damage, the rise of antinativism is a first-order cause of catastrophic anthropogenic climate change that accompanied elective regime change, extra-judicial trials, national instability, and community corruption from Tripoli to Damascus to Kiev and beyond in a global humanitarian disaster.

Gusty Winds said...

I'll bet if they change those signs to "Fisting Against Silence" they'd get a lot more participation.

Tim said...

Fasting, what total wuss bags, light yourself on fire, then we will know you aren't just elitist, pompous windbags.

Beach Brutus said...

Why is this newsworthy? Three people disagree with something not done. Everyday millions of people disagree with stuff that is actually done, much less not done; why are these guys opinions worthy of anyone's attention above all the others?

mockturtle said...

They obviously want the publicity. They could have fasted privately, as Jesus suggested.

JPS said...

This reminds me of Dave Barry's description of taking part in a hunger strike to protest the Vietnam War:

"I kept this up for several days but failed to have much of an impact on Washington. At no point, as far as I know, did a White House aide burst into the Oval Office and shout with alarm, 'Some students at Haverford College have been refusing to eat for several days!' followed by Lyndon Johnson saying, 'Mah God! Ah got to change mah foreign policy!'"

The Cracker Emcee said...

Oooh, they're fasting! Up against the wall, mothafucka

Gk1 said...

My Alma Mater Kansas University had some iranian protestors protesting visa restrictions back in the 1990's only to be "besieged" by some enterprising fraternity brothers setting up a picnic a couple of feet away with corn on the cob and fried chicken. The protesters complained to the police but they just shrugged and said "there is no law covering people loudly exclaiming how good their food tastes". May these drama queens meet the same fate.

Gusty Winds said...

Three Clemson University professors began a six-day fast this morning to protest what they say is administrators' “refusal to call for an end” to President Trump’s travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven predominantly Muslim countries.

They already announced the exit strategy to their enemy.

As long as the University knows there's and end date, they don't have to do anything. But, they might. It is a university.

This is the exact type of strategy Trump criticizes.

TerriW said...

If "normalize" doesn't win 2017 Word of the Year, I'm going to have to question their judging criteria. (Though perhaps something else could come sweep it away before then? Maybe this is like releasing an Oscar contender in January, to be long forgotten before ballots are cast.)

mockturtle said...

I am however amazed at the left wing one-upsmanship regarding Trump hysteria. Let the self immolations begin.

Yes. They surely realize that setting themselves on fire in the public square would be an even stronger, more effective statement.

Fabi said...

Does this mean I can have their pudding cups during their fast?

Mike Sylwester said...

This is what happens when Scientific Progressives are allowed to become professors at Clemson University.

buwaya said...

"The Seattle judge's order is about H1B visas. Do these guys have an iron in that fire ?"

All universities do. Foreign students are a huge source of revenue for the US university system. Thats a major business for both private and public universities. The "F1" visa is a very big deal.
They do things like run college fairs abroad to drum up business.

A list of upcoming ones - yes, the number of these things is amazing.
http://www.usjournal.com/fairs/

And there is quite a lot of abuse of the F1 visa.

Basil said...

Silence is not acquiescence until I say so!
Because, I am a special snowflake with superior moral insight. And, for some reason, am FOR my (or your) job being taken by an H1B visa holder.

Steven said...

Aww, three professors are choosing to not eat for less than a week? So cute they think anybody should care.

Less cute is the Chronicle of Higher Education, or any other media outlet that claims to have any self-respect, running a story about it that isn't blatantly mocking in tone.

Renee said...

31% of their graduate students are International students?

If there was ever a stop of student visa, I swear half of the universities would shut down.

http://www.clemson.edu/administration/global-engagement/Downloads/ITF%20Draft%20Intl%20Students%20and%20Campus%20Climate%202014-12-3-1.pdf

harryo said...

If I was to go to a university and sit in class, without a student ID card, and without paying tuition, what would you call that?

If I came to America, and got welfare and housing, without a passport, and without paying taxes, what would you call that?

Basil said...

Silence is not acquiescence until I say so!
Because, I am a special snowflake with superior moral insight. And, for some reason, am FOR my (or your) job being taken by an H1B visa holder.

buwaya said...

"Less cute is the Chronicle of Higher Education"
"31% of their graduate students are International students?"

Follow the money. It explains nearly everything.

hombre said...

Speak up, Clemson! Join the professorial jihad!

jr565 said...

Its a travel ban. Its not the holocaust.

Ambrose said...

I hate it when people like this normalize the use of the word normalize.

Larvell said...

"I often disagree that it is always the case that silence is consent."

Did he read that sentence after he wrote it? Because it implies that he sometimes agrees that it is always the case that silence is consent. Meaning that he often disagrees with himself.

Mike Sylwester said...

I heard a rumor that these three professors are fasting on behalf of Breitbart.

traditionalguy said...

This new "Presidential Judge" could as easily enjoin any elected President's Order that Embargos Strategic items from being sold to Iran, or to another designated country. You could say FDR started WWII be his Order saying no oil and steel could be sent to Japanese customers. That interfered with the business life of Western State Citizens too.

Matthew Sablan said...

"If they were real leftists, they'd set themselves on fire."

-- Someone already literally did that to protest Trump, so I'd say we probably shouldn't joke about it.

JPS said...

Gk1:

"there is no law covering people loudly exclaiming how good their food tastes"

Man, that's just mean.

(Funny, though.)

Laslo Spatula said...

If they're fasting they might as well go ahead and get the colonics.

Ass joke goes here:____________________________

I am Laslo.

buwaya said...

Big, big business -

http://www.chinaeducationexpo.com/english/

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/variety/2013/04/20/Riyadh-educational-exhibition-attracts-thousands.html

Mac McConnell said...

From Hannity,

According to a new Congressional Research Service report entitled Executive Authority to Exclude Aliens, the last 5 presidents have used executive authority to limit or restrict the entry of immigrants and non-immigrants into the U.S. a total of 43 times.

Ironically, it appears that President Barack Obama used this authority more frequently than any of his predecessors, exercising it a total of 19 times during his two terms in office.

Here's the breakdown of how many times each of the past five presidents issued such orders:

Ronald Reagan - Five times
George H. W Bush - One time
Bill Clinton - 12 times
George W. Bush - Six times
Barack Obama - 19 times

CJinPA said...

We never hear about when these PR stunts fail.

The IRA's Bobby Sands was the last one I remember to see it through.

MountainMan said...

Clemson is a relatively conservative university, with a relatively conservative student body, very conservative alumni, in a very conservative state. They won't get much sympathy.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Fabi said...

Does this mean I can have their pudding cups during their fast?

If they don't eat their meat, they can't have any pudding.

Curious George said...

Six days? That's not a fast. It's a "cleanse."

Fernandinande said...

3 Professors Are Fasting to Protest

I'M A PROFESSOR!

Gretchen said...

And we care ... why?

Alex said...

Can they be fired for not performing their jobs?

Bob Ellison said...

Well, six days is a long time to go without carbs. Maybe they're drinking ales. Lots of carbs there, but you can claim you're fasting, if you're given to lying openly.

campy said...

Can they be fired for not performing their jobs?

Their job is to eat?

Bob Ellison said...

I'd really like to hear about a bunch of professors going without water. That'd be a hoot! They'd all die in short order.

James Kahn said...

"Fasting is a temporary refrain from eating. A hunger strike is the willingness to starve yourself to death"

Then they should call it a hunger strike, since everyone is calling Trump's 90-day hold restricting entry to the US from certain countries a "travel ban." In fact, they could call it a hunger strike if all they were doing was not eating vegetables for a week.

MadisonMan said...

31% of their graduate students are International students?

If there was ever a stop of student visa, I swear half of the universities would shut down.

International students are cash cows for Universities.

Fabi said...

Perfectly done, Ignorance is Bliss!

Static Ping said...

Trying to care... failing...

Fernandinande said...

Laslo Spatula said...
Ass joke goes here:____________________________


A philosophy professor walks into a bar and tells the bartender, "My book The Political Philosophy of Poststructuralist Anarchism* has been influential in recent progressive political thought, and my work on Rancière is among the first in English."

The bartender replies, "Get the fuck outa here."


*Real title!

James Pawlak said...

Lacking youthful energy and money I cannot go to Clemson U. and set up an all faculty invited "tailgate party" upwind from their fasting site(s)---And, send them a "flavored" invitation to that event.

tcrosse said...

I bet they dress up like Gandhi.

Mike said...

I really like silence as an option. Like hell am I gonna give it up to these goons.

Bay Area Guy said...

Clemson has a really good football team. The faculty? Not so hot.

JPS said...

campy:

"Their job is to eat?"

No, but if the article mentioned what they're doing about their lectures I missed it. Curious whether they're asking colleagues to cover down, whether they're cancelling classes, or whether they'll be giving lectures on day 6 without food, in which case I know very few people who could give a good lecture.

If they take the second or third option, there is a job performance issue - not that I really expect their administration to go to the mat for it.

Kevin said...

Is this one of those Ramadan-kind of fasts where you eat breakfast before the sun comes up, skip lunch, and eat again once the sun goes down?

Doing this in the Winter months makes it even less challenging.

mockturtle said...

Doing this in the Winter months makes it even less challenging.

Especially in Alaska.

Johnny Sokko said...

A 6 day fast, what a bunch of pussies.

Bob Ellison said...

Kevin, it's probably like that. Kind of like those InstaDiet things. "I ate no bacon from sunrise to sunset!" It makes you a good person.

Michael K said...

"Follow the money. It explains nearly everything."

And if they say, "It's not about the money," it's about the money.

Fernandinande said...

A professor of popular culture walks into a bar and says "I'm a scholar, journalist, organizer and artist who holds an assistant professorship in popular culture in Clemson university's department of Communication and a creativity professorship in Clemson University’s College of AAH."

The bartender says "What's AAH?"

The professor of popular culture says "I'm a scholar, journalist, organizer and artist who holds an assistant professorship in popular culture and a creativity professorship in Clemson University’s department of Communication Studies."

The bartender says "Are you here to fix the toilet? Is that what AAH means?"
...

Fernandinande said...

...
The professor of popular culture says "My research interests involve intersections between popular culture and social justice."

The bartender says "Can you fix the toilet?"

The professor of popular culture says "Broadly, my research interests involve intersections between popular culture and social justice. This includes the critical study of production processes, industry dynamics and textual meaning in music, television, and radio."

The bartender says "Your official Clemson website only has about six complete sentences, and half of those are repeats with very slight changes."

The professor of popular culture says "Get the fuck out here."

Comanche Voter said...

So a lard assed lefty or two is going to go on a hunger strike. The strike will end when the lefty has taken a notch or two in his belt--or sees a piece of apple pie.

Boo hoo.

Ron Snyder said...

Hope that the Professors keep it up until they achieve room temperature.

Quaestor said...

Clemson has a professorship of popular culture, eh? That explains why Clemson won the 2016/17 NCAA football champion.

Sooner to announce, the University of Alabama Department of Silly Walks.

PB said...

That's the left's whole position - you're with us or you're against us. Very binary. How nuanced.

buwaya said...

"University of Alabama Department of Silly Walks"

Wasn't there one at Oberlin already?
Don't encourage them.

Fernandinande said...

A biology professor walks into a bar and says "I often disagree that it is always the case that silence is consent."

The bartender says "I always disagree that it is often the case that silence is not consent."

The biology professor says "In this case, however, silence is very much consent."

The bartender thought "I'm very much normalizing a situation in which you get the fuck outa here."

buwaya said...

In a bit of somewhat tangential news - and a UW - Gov Walker connection -

And an example of why the system is so robust - millions to study why college is so expensive.
The solution is, apparently, for the universities to give students money.
Not, for some reason, to study the efficiency problem.

Yet another reason why colleges need foreign students.


http://www.philly.com/philly/education/New-prof-brings-milions-to-Temple.html
"Since education policy professor Sara Goldrick-Rab arrived at Temple University eight months ago, she's brought in two large grants, totaling more than $6 million for research on making college more affordable."
...
"In Wisconsin, Goldrick-Rab — who has been ranked by Education Week as the nation’s 10th-most influential scholar on educational policy and practice — had developed a national reputation as a social media firebrand, once tweeting that Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker was a “fascist” for wanting to weaken tenure protections.

At Temple, which is in a city more in line with her politics, she’s found much smoother sailing."
...
"For the completion-grant project, Goldrick-Rab will work with universities already experimenting with completion grants. Awards of $500 to $1,500 will be given to college seniors in good academic standing who need a little help paying tuition so they can graduate."

exhelodrvr1 said...

Three professors on the fast train to nowhere

William said...

What is the ideal number of H1B visas? Does that number deviate from the dictates of morality? Why is this rather mundane problem a moral issue? .......I fear that too much attention to this will draw attention away from the most pressing moral problem of our era. Does every transgendered student at Clemson have access to a safe, clean bathroom? I think not. That's the issue these Clemson professors should be concerned about.

JoyD said...

Oh, Althouse. These are your people? Can the Amazon portal be worth that much $$ to you?

And to your groupies, don't ever imagine I'll look back to check out your witty repartee.

Fernandinande said...

An infinite number of mathematicians stroll into a bar.

The first mathematician orders a beer, the second one orders half a beer, the third one orders a quarter of a beer...after the fourth one orders an eighth of a beer, the bartender brings two beers and says, “You guys don't know your limits."

Lem said...

What is the point of a visa/entry permit if it cannot be even temporarily revoked?

What am I missing? I've must've missed a big day in U.S. civics 101.

Barry Dauphin said...

Terry Bradshaw should join them. He needs to lose weight.

Fernandinande said...

JoyD said...
Oh, Althouse. These are your people? Can the Amazon portal be worth that much $$ to you?

And to your groupies, don't ever imagine I'll look back to check out your witty repartee.


Get the fuck outa here.

The Vault Dweller said...

There really isn't any harm in just letting the professors starve themselves. In case of the popular culture prof it might actually help the students and force them to chose a more useful subject matter to study.

tpceltus said...

Clemson = South Carolina. Being silent is a statement of the most progressive kind.

mockturtle said...

The very idea that students are majoring in 'Popular Culture' explains a lot.

tim maguire said...

You may not be interested in politics, but lefty jackoffs are interested in you.

"The personal is political" is the most damaging phrase since "workers of the world, unite!"

TWW said...

I fully support their effort.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

It takes some pretty big balls to think you have some kind of right to compel others' speech.

Krumhorn said...

Ass joke goes here:____________________________


A gay Clemson biology professor walks into a bar and tells the bartender that he just learned he has AIDS. The bartender reaches under the bar and pulls out a #10 can of jalapeños, cracks it open, and slides it down the bar with a fork to the gay Clemson biology professor, saying "eat up".

The gay Clemson biology professor says "Why? Will this cure me"?

The bartender says "No. But in a day or two, you'll learn what the purpose of your butt really is".

- Krumhorn

Commander Crankshaft said...

Lemme get this straight: The commenters here probably believe that academic student/researcher exchanges around the world with America doesn't make other societies more open to our values, but more prone to increased terrorist threats. RIght?

This president and all his minions here are a paranoid bunch of jokes. Just today he accused that there was (I guess, a global) conspiracy to make sure that terrorism was not reported. This being the boss of the lady who fantasized a terrorist massacre the other day in some place called Bowling Green.

Narcissists are delusional. Have your fun now. And then reap the disasters of these completely misplaced priorities later. It's what Republicans always do. And their replacement of the JCS chair and the director of national intelligence with a political advisor (and publishing hack) proves it. They want to replace non-partisan security expertise with politics and messaging. Incredible.

sane_voter said...

Lame lefty trolls who post once and never return are the best kind of troll

buwaya said...

"The commenters here probably believe that academic student/researcher exchanges around the world with America doesn't make other societies more open to our values"

No they don't.
Academic/student researcher exchanges abroad make other societies more contemptuous of the US, or create anti-Americanism as an import from the US. The US academy despises the US polity, the hate and alienation are total. It is a complete rejection, a demand for extermination.

Foreigners may have native philosophical ideas to reject Americanism, but the import of anti-Americanism from the US itself carries with it a high tech, high culture cachet that trumps everything.

This was a powerful element in the spread of, for instance, Communism in the 1930's and Maoism in the 1950's-60's. In the Philippines it was largely an import from the US. Lots of students went there, and brought it back, or were indoctrinated in place. I can trace the intellectual roots in the Philippines very clearly. The University of the Philippines, an American creation begat the intellectual anti-Americans CM Recto, Renato Constantino (and that milieu) which begat the Maoist Jose Maria Sison who taught ... Rodrigo Duterte.

Then there is the famous story of Sayyid Qutb, the intellectual father of modern Islamism, the root of Al Quaeda and ISIS and every other flavor. He learned who his enemies were - you - while studying here.

Its not a bit clear (certainly not demonstrably, as I did above) that ideologically or in any sort of public or private mores that the US academy has had any positive influence on the world at all.

Jupiter said...

Commander Crankshaft said...
"Lemme get this straight: The commenters here probably believe that academic student/researcher exchanges around the world with America doesn't make other societies more open to our values, but more prone to increased terrorist threats. RIght?"

Cranky, the chances of you getting anything straight are slim to none. But if you follow Fernandinande's link to the description of the academic interests and accomplishments of Chenjerai Kumanyika, you should get a pretty good idea of why some of us feel he is not really a very good advertisement for the American system of higher education. I think he should seek employment more suited to his abilities. "Would you like fries with that?" is probably a little beyond his mental capacity, but with some coaching he should be able to manage "Uh, fries?". If not, he could probably be trained to point to a picture.

Commander Crankshaft said...

Well then clearly buwaya needs to be deported back to the Philippines then as he as obviously not absorbed enough American values.

Get ready, buwaya. Did you need a plane ticket?

tcrosse said...

An Irishman, an Italian, and a Jew walk into a bar.
Bartender says, "What is this, a joke ?"

buwaya said...

"Well then clearly buwaya needs to be deported back to the Philippines then as he as obviously not absorbed enough American values. "

Cute Ritmo. Obtuse, but cute.

Terrie said...

"Just today he accused that there was (I guess, a global) conspiracy to make sure that terrorism was not reported. This being the boss of the lady who fantasized a terrorist massacre the other day in some place called Bowling Green. "

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/02/06/trumps-suggestion-that-the-media-is-ignoring-terrorist-attacks-has-a-familiar-source-infowars/?utm_term=.604e4e060f40

"Trump made a whopper of a claim on Monday, suggesting that the media is deliberately ignoring terrorist attacks.

"It’s gotten to a point where it’s not even being reported," he said to military leaders at U.S. Central Command. "And in many cases the very, very dishonest press doesn’t want to report it. They have their reasons, and you understand that."

The comments would seem to be a response to the hubbub over Kellyanne Conway having repeatedly cited a non-existent terror attack in Bowling Green, Ky., in recent days. But Trump doesn't appear to have totally invented this theory on the fly.

Instead, the kernel of the idea appears to have come from -- or at least been propagated by -- one of his favorite news sources: the conspiracy theory website InfoWars.

As @UrbanAchievr noted after Trump's comments, InfoWars has been barking up this tree for a while now."

Jon Ericson said...

sane_voter said...

That may have been BiteOnce "Showin Us!".

Commander Crankshaft said...

Maybe that's how European settlers became hostile to the American people. It was the universities. But Republicans are more poorly educated, though, right? Is it an American value to hate the American people? The Republicans certainly hate the American people quite a bit, from what I can see.

Maybe they learned it from the First Nations.

Jake said...

Major lulz

Jon Ericson said...

at-least-580-individuals-convicted-in-terror-cases-since-9-11-at-least-380-are-foreign-born

Jupiter said...

Commander Crankshaft said...

"Well then clearly buwaya needs to be deported back to the Philippines then as he as obviously not absorbed enough American values."

I am guessing you have already started drinking, Crankster, but try to follow along anyway. Although the Philippines does have a severe problem with Muslim terrorists (who doesn't, these days?), it is not a Muslim country, and is not one of the seven on former President Obama's list. Therefore, President Trump's Executive Order would have no impact whatsoever on people from the Philippines, even if a so-called judge in Washingstan had not issued a fatwa against it.

buwaya puti said...

Ritmo, use your brain, you have one.

Yes, anti-Americanism is a leading US intellectual export. The kids in Manilas UP didn't read Lenin in Russian, they had it in English from their US professors.

This is also true of Europe BTW - they were the biggest propagators of their own enemies intellectual foundations. Both Ho Chi Minh and Ben Bella learned their lessons from Frenchmen.

buwaya puti said...

I am not particularly interested in the Islamic angle, mind you. The Philippine brand of Islamic trouble is ancient, endemic, and the furthest thing from intellectual. Those Moros didn't need to learn anything from anyone because, well, they haven't, in a thousand years. They are hardly intellectual Muslims inspired by the impeccable Arabic logic of Qutb.
They at least can't be blamed on American academics.

Commander Crankshaft said...

It is not the job of universities to be nationalistic chest-beaters. It is the job of the military. If you want less anti-Americanism in AMerica, there is a simple remedy: Policies that take better care of America's poor and working class, and policies that lead America into less intrusion abroad. That's the ticket. And these "kids" aren't typically getting visas to come here and study the humanities anyway, let alone Marxism. They're coming - (those who are highly sought, anyway) - to study and often contribute magnificently to our science programs. Steve Jobs' dad was a Syrian migrant. We still have the best science research institutions in the world, and they're international for and because of this reason.

So keep up the flag-waving boilerplate all you want, buwaya. But you're off-base and getting sloppy with how you're focusing on this. Much like Trump's ban itself, ironically.

Now is not the time for bad, sloppy answers. We need accuracy in this age, and Trump is a delusional narcissist. We can't afford to be bending the truth to meet anyone's paranoid ego needs - or how they project that onto the nation.

Jupiter said...

Commander Crankshaft said...

"... ... ... Maybe they learned it from the First Nations."

Long Monday, Crank?

But if, as seems possible, you are suggesting that the American Indians made a botch of immigration policy, certainly a case can be made. Importing large numbers of hostile foreigners has never worked out very well for anyone. I have never understood why the Left thinks that references to the Native American experience are arguments for increased immigration. It kind of seems as if they have been taught that any argument which cannot be won by referring to Slavery can be won by referring to Indians. If those don't work you must be talking to Hitler.

JPS said...

Commander Crankshaft,

There is this problem. You want to shame us for our opinions, but you are not remotely capable of summarizing them without massive distortion. You are the poster boy, or perhaps girl, for the research of Jonathan Haidt. You put these words in our mouths and no doubt exult that you really got us with that one, but the truth is you got someone who isn't in the room, so to speak, and who may not actually exist.

buwaya puti said...

Ritmo,

I am discussing the effect of this stuff abroad. Importing talented people is a fine thing - for the US. Unless this increases the strains of the US intellectual split even further. The last thing the US needs are yet more ragers.

What this does abroad is very much a different story.

And, note, technical training is not something the US does very efficiently. It's a poor bargain. It's a worse bargain yet, if the poor kids, as they are prone to these days no matter their major, take the intellectual atmosphere of the US academy, that poison, back home.

Bob Matthews said...

Instead of refusing the eat, they should hold their breath until the university changes its position. This has the positive effects of 1) bringing the issue to a swift conclusion, one way or the other, and 2) bringing their behavior into focus.

Commander Crankshaft said...

There is this problem. You want to shame us for our opinions, but you are not remotely capable of summarizing them without massive distortion. You are the poster boy, or perhaps girl, for the research of Jonathan Haidt. You put these words in our mouths and no doubt exult that you really got us with that one, but the truth is you got someone who isn't in the room, so to speak, and who may not actually exist.

Do everyone a favor and think through the logical conclusions of your opinions and I won't have to do that, then.

But you guys don't. Republicans never learn. They've given us a depression, a great recession, a war costing trillions on a credit card in a country that they lied into saying attacked us in 2001, and as many corporatist conflicts of interest as the eye can see. And even your man in the wheel house now is doing it all over again - after explicitly campaigning on "draining the swamp." He's got Goldman Sachs running the joint now, and that's not even counting Steve Bannon - who has no business replacing the JCS chair at the NSC. No business, whatsoever. So you guys elected a loudmouth talker, and a delusional liar, a guy who's going to make America "greater" than the one where his predecessor cut unemployment in half, tripled the DJIA, and kept us safe from any major terrorist attacks, or any major wars.

So yes, you guys deserve scorn for your opinions. Because you get carried away with the feeling of them and never bother to think through what you actually mean by them. Maybe billionaire shill Betsy Devos of the now completely corporatized education department can teach you about that - if she actually knew anything about anything other than grizzly bears, rifles in schools and how to takeover the government to use it to your own personal benefit, and Trump's as well.

Incredible.

Commander Crankshaft said...

I am discussing the effect of this stuff abroad. Importing talented people is a fine thing - for the US. Unless this increases the strains of the US intellectual split even further.

There is no strain. There is no split. There are people who respectably use their intellects, and then there are raging, emotive, paranoid assholes who wear red hats that say, "Make America Great Again."

The last thing the US needs are yet more ragers.

Yeah, I know. See above. Raging against Islam in the airports does nothing to change it.

What this does abroad is very much a different story.

Sounds vague. But people abroad can take care of their own things abroad. I don't give a shit what they think of America, unless they're doing something better where they are.

And, note, technical training is not something the US does very efficiently. It's a poor bargain. It's a worse bargain yet, if the poor kids, as they are prone to these days no matter their major, take the intellectual atmosphere of the US academy, that poison, back home.

Science training and training technicians are different things.

Bob Loblaw said...

Will anybody miss these guys if the starve? Besides their families and friends, I mean. We have a lot of spare social scientists and biologists who can't find a tenured position.

buwaya puti said...

As for what the US should do -
The US academy has been ramping up the hate continuously regardless of any objective measure of well being among either the general population or any subset thereof. Whatever improves, if that's what it is, the more poison in the message.
There is no satisfying anyone anymore, if there ever was.
The current iteration is simply a blast of hate, with no goal, no demand, no object, and it is directed against a vast sets of their fellow citizens. Public school teachers hate boys, their pupils, especially white boys, openly and individually, and are happy to say so. Public officials demand white people not participate in their local politics because they are somehow not fit to do so.
Both of these things they learned at university. This sort of thing you see more and more, and worse and worse. Go look and you will see.

Tommy Duncan said...

From Wikipedia:

Todd May (born 1955 in New York City, New York) is a political philosopher notable for his role in developing, alongside Saul Newman and Lewis Call, the theory of post-structuralist anarchism.[1] He is currently Class of 1941 Memorial Professor of Philosophy at Clemson University and contributes to CounterPunch. His 1994 book The Political Philosophy of Poststructuralist Anarchism was the first to combine post-structuralist and anarchist thought, and he subsequently has published treatments of major poststructuralist philosophers, including Gilles Deleuze and Michel Foucault. He serves as faculty adviser for several student-run political organizations.

Bob Loblaw said...

What the US should do is gut Griggs v. Duke Power and watch the whole towering edifice crash to the ground. Nobody would pay $60k a year for a degree in Bullshit Studies if they didn't think it was going to land them a good job.

buwaya puti said...

Ritmo,
You have not seen what I have seen. The true face of hate cannot be appreciated unless you see it. I have seen it, in two decades of public schools, of board of education meetings, of dealing with public officials.
I take it you have no children. Should you, pay attention.

Commander Crankshaft said...

Then go run a damn school in the Philippines, for all I care. Make it as much a nationalistic Heritage Foundation think tank as you want. Or open up a branch of Bob Jones University in Manilla. For Christ's sake, for someone that worries as much as you do about higher education, you write atrociously. I guess that's why you're not making your way up the ranks of some American academic job. And there's not a fact in any of that screed of yours. Just innuendo, insinuation, opinion and diatribe. To what end?

"No object," indeed. Just another clone in the Nixonian/Trump war against knowledge, truth, facts, academia, the press. Things that get in the way of abject emotionality. The nationalism's better when we don't think. Thinking is bad for the country. Blind flag waving and no criticism whatsoever is what's needed. The thinking is getting in the way of the patriotism, saith the puti.

Jon Ericson said...

A ritmo cartoon

buwaya said...

Sadly, English is not my first language, I was educated in a foreign land and I am a humble engineer besides, happier with numbers than words. Aguantalo.

I was educated in Catholic schools in two countries and known many others, and friends who have been or had their kids in schools in dozens of countries. I have no idea what you imagine the alternatives to the US system are, you seem to have little experience with this as your suggestions are absurd. You can be assured that most developed countries have superior versions of public K-12 than the US. Even socialist ones.

Anyway, I am no academic and I am on the last run to retirement, TBD until the last kid is out of university.

Commander Crankshaft said...

K-12 and higher education are different beasts. I really wish you would stop mixing things up.

America's K-12 education has a lot of problems. America's universities are a different beast altogether. Often the envy of the world, if only occasionally equalled if not surpassed by still-famous places like Oxbridge, etc.

Sorry what I said about your writing.

Jupiter said...

Commander Crankshaft said...
"Then go run a damn school in the Philippines, for all I care."

Crinkles, that will be just about enough of your anti-immigrant hatred. buwaya puti is a better American than you'll ever be. Probably more fun at a party, too.

buwaya said...

The state of US K-12 and the state of its universities are not that different, for the bulk of them.
You have a tremendous number of these institutions, with a corresponding enrollment.

Only a few of them are world class, enrolling just a small fraction of your students.

I have substantial knowlege of the condition and output of the public universities in California, both the UC and the Cal State system. I have recruited in most of them, among other things. And I'm an old customer of the UC schools. They have taken a lot of my money.

If anyone is looking for a bargain, look to Cal Poly. Also hire there, if you can. Cal State Chico has some surprisingly good programs and hidden gems.

Its not difficult to come to conclusions, given experience.
CA universities cannot compete, the vast majority of them, with the IIT system, for one. I am well accustomed to dealing with the graduates of that. And Im not talking of just knowing technical subjects, but common sense and making an argument.

Commander Crankshaft said...

Hey, at least he's been to America. Jupiter is from outer space.

But it's always entertaining when people whose only purchase on power involves gripping onto a guy who loses a popular vote by 3 million votes... it's always fun when losers like that talk about how they know what is and is not American. Apparently the people of America are not American, to these asswipes.

Jupiter can go to the Philippines then. This country obviously rejects his nonsense.

Commander Crankshaft said...

And Im not talking of just knowing technical subjects, but common sense and making an argument.

That's a different issue. We have a college glut -- for two reasons:

1. We gutted manufacturing and the trades
2. We are too competitive to allow our kids into those fields when college-education will always make more, on average.

America doesn't have to have ALL great colleges. But it does have some of the best. Most of them, in fact.

Once the glut abates, more of them will be even better. And the bottom tier will fall by the wayside. That includes many long-distance campuses, including "Trump University" and similar scams.

buwaya said...

I have been in the US, mostly, for 32 years now.

I have met the full spectrum of your people in that time. I am in a better position, in the matter of experience, to comment on your affairs than the redoubtable de Tocqueville. Of course, he had talent and I don't.

Still, the deficiency is I think a matter of setting down words rather than seeing the truth.

buwaya said...

Let me put it another way - if it were up to me I would close the majority of the CA public universities, as they seem to add no value at all. Nearly everything they do is waste young peoples time and money, as well as public funds.

And even in the "best" I would purge 1/3 to a half of all departments for the same reason.

I dont see why this judgement would not apply to the US academy as a whole.

Targeted vocational training, even for desk jobs, can substitute for those cases where the current system provides some value, if padded with dross and pap.

This is not a minor problem that will sort itself out, it is an entirely worthless resource sink, of tremendous proportions. Maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of your kids enrolled in your universities are wasting their time.

That there are a FEW world class universities is no great accomplishment for the richest nation in the world with a population of over 300 million out of which to select the best.

Achilles said...

Commander Crankshaft said...

"No object," indeed. Just another clone in the Nixonian/Trump war against knowledge, truth, facts, academia, the press. Things that get in the way of abject emotionality. The nationalism's better when we don't think. Thinking is bad for the country. Blind flag waving and no criticism whatsoever is what's needed. The thinking is getting in the way of the patriotism, saith the puti.

Self awareness is your friend. The full cup overflows, the empty cup can always accept more knowledge.

Who is shutting down thinking on campus? Our campus system is schlerotic, slow to adapt, and wide open for some criticism. We pile non dis-chargeable debt onto poor young students to shift wealth from them to wealthy baby boomers. This kind of generational theft is gross.

What cause in K12 is served by forcing kids and parents who can't afford private school to go to largely segregated public education? Who segregated public education? Why don't wealthy liberals send their kids to the same schools my kids have to go to?

Achilles said...

buwaya said...
Let me put it another way - if it were up to me I would close the majority of the CA public universities, as they seem to add no value at all. Nearly everything they do is waste young peoples time and money, as well as public funds.

And even in the "best" I would purge 1/3 to a half of all departments for the same reason.

I dont see why this judgement would not apply to the US academy as a whole.


We need to stop subsidizing the garbage. If someone wants to take a course they should, but charging 10 times as much as you need to and piling on non dischargeable debt is immoral.

Targeted vocational training, even for desk jobs, can substitute for those cases where the current system provides some value, if padded with dross and pap.

We need to stop training truck drivers. There wont be any very soon. We need to start subsidizing training that will give people useful skills. This can only be done in a marketplace. The accreditation system is too slow and sclerotic to handle this.

This is not a minor problem that will sort itself out, it is an entirely worthless resource sink, of tremendous proportions. Maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of your kids enrolled in your universities are wasting their time.

That there are a FEW world class universities is no great accomplishment for the richest nation in the world with a population of over 300 million out of which to select the best.


The only differences between most universities is the contacts you make while there. Our university system has been set up to maintain an aristocracy and transfer wealth from one generation to another.

JML said...

Commander Crankshaft: The ugly American in America. I am amazed at how much bile spews out of you.

Buwaya, One of the good things to come out of the Philippine Insurrection was the realization that a .45 calibre round was one of the best ways to stop an angry Moro warrior, which led to the 1911 Colt 45. The other was a closer relationship with the US, which I think ultimately made it easier for you to come to the US. I'm glad you are here.

Jupiter said...

buwaya said...

"Let me put it another way - if it were up to me I would close the majority of the CA public universities, as they seem to add no value at all. Nearly everything they do is waste young peoples time and money, as well as public funds."

To the extent that the modern academy was designed, as opposed to merely eventuating, it was designed to offer an advanced education to the highly educable. The modern determination to provide a college education to everyone is a result of the Woebegone expectation that everyone can be above average -- well above. Of course, the people running the universities have been at pains to encourage that ridiculous fantasy. Rather than close them, I would like to see them forced to cosign their students' loans. It is a shocking scandal that highly educated and knowledgeable people are allowed to sell a product on credit to gullible children which they are well aware is not worth what they charge for it. Make the lying bastards stand by the value of their work, with their endowments and jobs at stake. I think we would rather quickly see an improvement in educational outcomes, and an educational system designed to raise the productivity and earning power of the nation's youth, rather than preying upon their innocence while encouraging their feckless naivete.

JML said...

when I looked at the picture I first read it as "Fist against Silence" and envisioned some womyn's studies professor giving it good and hard to one of her students.

FIDO said...

Dieting for Trump. Personally, before I am impressed, I want their offices searched for that hidden jar of peanut butter next to their bottle of Scotch.

However, never let an opportunity go to waste: we need to encourage the entire Women Studies Department Majors to join these professors. After all, Spring Break is fast approaching.

So their entire hunger strike consists of losing about 6 pounds? Most?

They are not Nelson Mandela.

Iapetus said...

Blogger Fernandinande said...
An infinite number of mathematicians stroll into a bar.

The first mathematician orders a beer, the second one orders half a beer, the third one orders a quarter of a beer...after the fourth one orders an eighth of a beer, the bartender brings two beers and says, “You guys don't know your limits."

::clap::
::clap::

Douglas said...

Fasting is good for the soul and the waistline. I wish them well, and pray that Clemson ignores them utterly.

Blair said...

I do love a good fasting battle. The last big one turned out as follows: Margaret Thatcher - 1, Bobby Sands - 0.

I expect Trump to win this one too.

Commander Crankshaft said...

The ugly American in America.

Hey, man. Leave your mother out of it!