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Agreed let's hope for good strange. At least a lot of people will be scrutinizing everything he does.
When does Trump start to get medical care from the military with regular monitoring? He really seems to have aged since he came down the elevator in Trump Tower 8 months ago.
I mean escalator!
There's still lawsuits, and then Congress has to certify the votes so there will be lobbying of Congress to refuse to count Trump's votes, which Federal law allows them to do.I don't think these efforts will go anywhere, but watch for progressive talking heads to independently and totally not coordinate in unanimously calling for each method to be tried.
Diogenes,Like they never scrutinized Obama? No, only from the day he was elected. Scrutinized and cried over like little babies. Seriously, i thought the folks at Fox were going to have a stroke. So please, never say that Trump is being scrutinized more than Obama, that is a bold faced lie. Oh, BTW, i never did like Obama that much, never thought much of his administration. I like Ann, hope for the best. Still, I think within the first 100 days, we are going to be knee deep in a war, not good.Vicki from Pasadena
Trump won.........again!All this winning, it's too much. Stop already!!
The most "faithless" electors we've every had. I hope this doesn't become acceptable and Democrats try to expand this into another phase of the campaign. Stranger things have happened with their view that the Constitution is a living document that needs to evolve via interpretation in the courts.
thank God, we can now move on to the impeachment phase of the program... so much whining, i mean winning !.. just kidding guys.. a couple of more weeks and we can enter the dickensian phase of our evolution... are there no work houses?... what are the odds that trump can find turkey on a map?
It's probably best for Trump supporters that the other side has completely lost its mind, but it may not be best for the country. I hope they'll get over it now.
I didn't expect America to reject Hill, but I don't think it's "strange." Nor do I think it's "strange" that the same progs who derided DJT's refusal to respect the outcome in advance turned around immediately when they lost to question and undermine the outcome. It's who they are, and it's not even "good strange." Nor do I think Trump's moves thus far are strange; in fact, he has appointed a decent Republican cabinet that portends more mainstream conservative policies than expected. Tweeting and thank-you tours may be a bit "strange," but not so strange for a political operator trying to circumvent the MSM and build up political capital with supporters.
It's not over. They will never stop complaining and agitating "for change". Hell, they'll probably bring back that broad who called outside Bushes house demanding to speak with him, again, about her son's death in Iraq.It's going to be four years of this Ann. And then, when the next election is here, theyll whisper softly in your ear, "Wouldn't you like all this controversy and drama to go away? Just vote Democrat and it'll all be back to normal again."
Seems not one, but two Electors from Texas jumped ship. Speaking as a Texan on the Border and free trade Libertarian, they did us no favors. NAFTA is good.
The faithless electors thought they saw a midget, but it was only Martin Sheen.
Was it "strange" in 2008?
"I hope they'll get over it now."Not me. I hope they keep it up.Reveal to everybody what these bunch of jackass losers look like, and 2020 will be a walk in the park.
"So please, never say that Trump is being scrutinized more than Obama, that is a bold faced lie."Bullshit.He's ALREADY being 'scrutinized' far more than Obama ever was.Liar.
My 401k is worth $7,000 more than the day before the election.Go Trump! Don't stop the music!
It's not quite over. As Congress formally acts to accept the electoral vote, 1 Democrat Senator and 1 Democrat House Representative can object and then brief hearings have to be held in each chamber to consider the objection.Democrats ain't done whining yet. Part of this "phase" has been establishing a framework where Bill and Hill and Obama can get paid big bucks on the speaking circuit talking about this.
"So please, never say that Trump is being scrutinized more than Obama, that is a bold faced lie."-- Remember when the press suppressed an embarrassing video of Obama and dug up an embarrassing one of Trump?
Just how stupid do those Hollywood idiots who appealed to the electoral voters to not vote for Trump look today?
This Tweet perfectly summed up the day...Benjy Sarlin @BenjySarlin 8h8 hours agoToday the electors meet to formally declare the end of the "denial" and "bargaining" phases
Vicky, you're partially correct. The media scrutiny of Obama came exclusively from the right. To this day there is nothing but fawning and hero worship from the leftist media.
From what I see, Trump narrowed the gap between him & Hillary - won by 76 electoral votes instead of 74. (He lost 2, Hillary lost 4).Should fisk the votes in California and Florida to see if there were any illegals - the way things have gone so far with Trump (he seems to gain everytime), it could put the squeeze on that "she won the popular vote" meme.
I don't remember Republicans from the President down scrutinizing the the very election of Obama, or top Republicans along with the press calling him unqualified to hold the office, even though he was the least qualified person ever elected to it. The adversarial Press will now be the most fierce in American history after disappearing for 8 years. So, Trump will even help the Press find jobs - the ones they have refused to do during the current administration. He will make America's Press great again, at the very least.
@AllenSThe idea that a group of Hollywood liberals were going to convince hardcore Republican electors to do anything was stupid at best and insane at worst. The folks in that video spent most of their careers making sure we would know just how much they hate Republicans. Did they really believe a group they had dumped scorn on would flip because they offered their "respect"? As Bogie said in Casablanca, that's poor salesmanship.
victoria: "Diogenes, Like they never scrutinized Obama? No, only from the day he was elected. Scrutinized and cried over like little babies. Seriously, i thought the folks at Fox were going to have a stroke. So please, never say that Trump is being scrutinized more than Obama, that is a bold faced lie."LOL
From what I see, Trump narrowed the gap between him & Hillary - won by 76 electoral votes instead of 74. (He lost 2, Hillary lost 4).Those four "faithless" Hillary Electors were from Washington state: 3 voted for Colin Powell and 1 voted for a Native American activist.And THREE "Hillary" Electors tried to vote for Bernie or others - but they were denied the opportunity because of "state law". So much for the Dem/Prog narrative that the Electoral College is meant to allow Electors to vote for the "most qualified" or whatever nonsense they have been peddling.
Matthew Sablan: "-- Remember when the press suppressed an embarrassing video of Obama and dug up an embarrassing one of Trump?"Remember when CBS had the incriminating video from an Obama interview after Benghazi where he clearly was still no calling the attack terrorism?CBS released the video after the election.'cuz "scrutiny".Thanks for playing vicky.
"what are the odds that trump can find turkey on a map?"He probably has a hotel there, you dickless wonder.
Kathryn51: "So much for the Dem/Prog narrative that the Electoral College is meant to allow Electors to vote for the "most qualified" or whatever nonsense they have been peddling."It's easy to get the dems/progs believing and acting upon whatever the latest lefty nonsense of the day happens to be.Just read victoria's posts.Hilarious!And...sad.
GWash: "what are the odds that trump can find turkey on a map?"My God, how much of "teh stupid" can 1 person bring to a blogsite in 1 day?Michael K: "He probably has a hotel there, you dickless wonder"And sure enough, after 10 seconds online, we find this: http://www.trump.com/real-estate-portfolio/istanbul/trump-towers/
GWash, could you at least make the minimum effort necessary to learn/understand the bare essentials for a productive dialogue?Sweet Jesus.
mk... still doesn't mean he can find it unless one of his lackys points to it... it's going to be an interesting 4 years (if he doesn't decide he likes his business more than making america great) and i did't know you cared! its going to be hard for my friends here to defend all of the good changes coming our way... its much harder when you have to deal in specifics and make choices rather than vague statements and promises... watch your wallets..the wolves are closing in ...
Uncertainties? Really? Nah.
Why is it 'strange'?How many of our Presidents over the centuries were NOT politicians at all?Was George Washington a professional politician?Ulysses S. Grant was never one. Neither was Dwight Eisenhower.And quite a few were just politicians for a short while.http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0768854.htmlSo give Trump some slack. So far in his transition he seems to be doing very well.Could it be voting for politicians time and time again is some sort of incest and inner breeding?Maybe non-politician would bring some fresh life to American.
"Like they never scrutinized Obama?"Dear Vicky,The MSM never scrutinized Obama. They bent over and submitted for the whole eight years.
Sadly, I see war and lots of really weird ambassadorships in our short-term future.
It's strange, but let it be good strange.So long as he keeps screwing up the women's news service political agenda, it'll be fine.An editorial voice falls back into pure soap opera status.
GWash You make a good point about workhouses because the press has already begun to roll out the homeless issue which, since the election apparently, has erupted as a huge problem in our cities. The press does this with every Republican administration, of course, and it is something of an inside joke but this year they are weeks and weeks ahead of their normal timeline. LOL.
Sadly, I see war and lots of really weird ambassadorships in our short-term future.So...no change huh?
Have there been really weird ambassadorships? As for war, this will be different.
I've bailed out early in the last three DVDs I ordered.I'm too sensitive to the three act structure. I can see uninteresting problems coming a mile away.
Gwa7sh couldn't find turkey in a grocery store. I saw this on twitter. Bill Clinton as NY elector cast his vote for his wife today, marking his first faithful act in their marriage
GWash said... [hush][hide comment] mk... still doesn't mean he can find it unless one of his lackys points to it... it's going to be an interesting 4 years (if he doesn't decide he likes his business more than making america great) and i did't know you cared! its going to be hard for my friends here to defend all of the good changes coming our way... its much harder when you have to deal in specifics and make choices rather than vague statements and promises... watch your wallets..the wolves are closing inBend over, I'll give ya a speific:Hillary Clinton will never be President. That was the reason tens of millions voted against her.
damn what's to scrutinize?... he was born in hawaii, went to columbia and harvard (which i dare say not many here can say), worked as a civil rights atty, got elected to state office and then the senate and finally was elected pres decisively over mccain and the beautiful but vapid sarah palin and romney.. married with 2 kids great husband and father... lets see the donald, inherited millions from father, failed businesses (thats plural), finally discovered how to make money off the taxpayers with his bankrupcies and stiffing small businesses, serial adulterer, never elected to and public office, knows his way around a court room cause he sues and has been sued so often, nice looking family probably spoiled rotten living off of daddy's teat, currently married to a one time illegal immigrant and elected to president after coming in second place by the largest margin EVER... behind by 2.8 million votes with no measurable voter fraud!.. does that about sum it up?.. but we wish him well, he's mine too... watch your wallets...they're coming ...
Klavan reviewed the new DVDs "Southside with You" and "Barry" the Obama stories. As the IMDb review says, this is the worst movie I've ever seen.
fullmoon... i agree she will never be president.. but here's a fact for you... 2.8 million more legal voters voted for her than trump... so that's pretty specific too... you know what i mean and thanks for the invitation but daddy dont play that game...i leave that to you...
the press has already begun to roll out the homeless issueThe reporting on that issue will fill the mass media right after January 20.
Poor GWash doesn't seem to have noticed that "nice looking family probably spoiled rotten living off of daddy's teat" is a perfect description of Michelle, Sasha, and Malia - we can quite often see the spoilage in the expressions on their faces.Whether Trump can find Turkey on a map may be debatable, but we can all find more than one turkey right here in this comment thread.
The uncertainties and desperate moves are over. Trump will be President.@Althouse, the desperate moves probably aren't yet over but any uncertainly since Election night was purely an illusion.
Like Althouse, I'm hoping for the best. I voted for Donald Trump because he was the only one opposing Hillary Clinton who had a chance of winning. It wasn't because I had high expectations for him, but because everything I knew about Mrs. Clinton indicated that she would be a horrible president, with horrible consequences for our nation. That cup has passed from us, thank God. And everything I've seen since Election Day has given me reason for hope. President Trump will be very different from the politicians who have held his office in the past, and given what they've done lately, hopefully that will be an improvement. With $20 trillion in debt, wars and unrest around the world and an overweening federal government that has had a boot on the throat of the average American, we can hardly do worse.
Why do I have the feeling there is really no reason for GWash to watch his wallet.
Although with the recent snowfall, maybe it is full from shoveling driveways.
"Sadly, I see war and lots of really weird ambassadorships in our short-term future."Those hallucinations are scary. I recommend Valium and stop drinking.
I think it is important for confidence to be extended, to allow GWash to be at peace with the fact that President Trump is not going to be after all his money.
You mean that ridiculous Hollywood video with Martin Sheen didn't work? Drat.
I wonder if Hillary, in defeat, is maintaining her previous rules that everyone must either vacate a hallway or a room when she enters as well as never make eye contact with her?
"2.8 million votes with no measurable voter fraud!"Good luck finding anyone in illegal alien California to look at voter ID.My wife's DL expired on her birthday last January. She could not get an appointment at the DMV to renew until April because all the illegals were getting theirs.With the DL comes automatic voter registration.
AprilApple: "You mean that ridiculous Hollywood video with Martin Sheen didn't work"Oh, it worked alright. Precisely as planned....by Putin.
Ann, Your sentiments are the best holiday gift ever. Thank you!
GWash said..."... does that about sum it up?.. but we wish him well, he's mine too."No, you left out racist, sexist, homophobic, Islamophobic, heterosexual Christian white American male. So, no, he's not yours. Not even close. He's ours. Yours is over there in that trashcan, having some kind of choking fit. Go buy her a drink.
Well, this act of defiance didn't go too well. Trump increased his electoral margin.So, now we move on to the next phase- Jill Stein sues for a recount of the today's vote.
Drago said...GWash, could you at least make the minimum effort necessary to learn/understand the bare essentials for a productive dialogue?Sweet Jesus.12/19/16, 6:19 PMNo, he can't. GWash is an 85.
I am not a regular drinker and valium never really did it for me. Sad!
jupiter...nice.. you were about 50% correct.. i am heterosexual, christian, white, american and male.. trump unfortunately does by coincidence happen to be my prez too... like or not... sorry to have to share this with you... . i'm harmless and entitled to my opinion and evidently i'm the turkey tonight! remain skeptical... i think that trump will come around next week, read some another piece of intelligence and pronounce that the russians did hack us and did try, unsuccessfully to influence our elections.. he's on track to be prez and he has to get serious now...
what's an 85...is that some kind of code?... how do we feel about your social security getting privatized?... counting on wall street for your retirement?... another transfer of wealth to stock brokers etc to gamble with?... what happens if the market goes south and your 401k and your SS is toast? anyone here counting on medicare?.. another trump appointee...
"what are the odds that trump can find turkey on a map?""He probably has a hotel there, you dickless wonder."Yes, Trump Real Estate has a major development in Istanbul with a 40-story residential,tower and a 40-story commercial tower.http://www.trumpistanbul.com.tr/
2.8 million more votes is a great and pointless statement.Do try to avoid stupidity.Make an effort.
GWash: "what's an 85...is that some kind of code?... how do we feel about your social security getting privatized?... counting on wall street for your retirement?... another transfer of wealth to stock brokers etc to gamble with?... what happens if the market goes south and your 401k and your SS is toast? anyone here counting on medicare?.. another trump appointee..."Desperation combined with ignorance is not a good look for you.
GWash is doing his best run-on sentence, saying nothing Hemingway impression.I got up, went to the beach, found a fish, cooked it, ate it.Fin.
There is really only 1 question for obama to answer on a day where the utter failure of his policies become even more manifest: 4 iron or 5 iron?
Sometimes it could be helpful to understand precisely what kind of discussions are being had on the playground.To that end, GWash does serve a purpose.
Yes, it is a code. I will break ranks and decode it for you. 85 translates to a notch above a retart. Take it as a compliment.
drago, enough of the personal attacks, i'm just trying find out how far you guys are in the tank for anything trump/republican... are you willing to roll over and just take whatever these guys are selling... it's coming... they want to privatize SS and medicare, this means more for them and less for you... what happens if you are retiring and the market is in the shape it was in 2008? and ALL of your money is in the market (securities or bonds) and now your the SS you counted on as a 'guaranteed' income and which you and presumably your employer paid into is pretty much gone and the 401K which you saved in order to have a reasonable life style in retirement is also gone... maybe you guys are independantly wealthy and not counting on SS or medicare when you retire...
ok..now your pulling my leg... retart?
Trump will be the significant president Obama wanted to be. He has already shown more moxie, more political adeptness, and more leadership than Obama did in eight years.
You have a nice sense of absorbing insults. You have been getting hit hard and shown no anger nor animosity, willing to exchange. Good for you. The political arguments I will leave alone.
@GWash: ALL of your money is in the market (securities or bonds) If you can't afford for the market to go down and wait for it to come back up, you have no business having your money there.Any other dumb questions?If you can't manage your money ask your mommy to hire a nanny but why do the rest of us have to be forced to do things your way?
thanks AJ, as they say sticks and stones etc.. all i'm trying to is understand what you guys are seeing that i'm missing... so far i'm getting nothing but dogma and ideology, i guess i was hoping for more traditional conservative ideas and ideals to get us through this couple of years.. i'm thinking we all in this together and we all need to get on board or it ain't gonna work...
Trump's. Raw talent at communicating a message and high level wisdom and intelligence in leadership were obvious from the first. The surprise has been seeing his high social skill level and good heart. That is quite a package. And did I mention he is a Calvinist Reformed Christian. It is too good for most people to believe, yet.
GWash said...ok..now your pulling my leg... retart?12/19/16, 7:49 PMArthur got it in one. I'm guessing 85 is your IQ. If you are educated, which I doubt, you are educated past your intelligence. Your arguments are high quantity and low quality and you throw out all you can in hopes that some will stick. You're like a talking doll; poke you and arguments, crafted by others, come out on a programmed cycle. I'm just glad you had the upgrade that deleted "Halliburton!"Be here by all means, do what you like, but I just wish you would up your game, Right now you're mostly ignorable. Maybe there's something more to you. Perhaps one day you'll show it. There may be no great harm in you... but I'm not seeing any great value.
so Gabriel, you are not going to be collecting SS? (i'm assuming thats what you are referring to when you say you don't want to be forced to do things my way)... i was talking about the average person who has at this moment about 18K in a 401K... so it's every man for himself? is that what we are selling here? i got mine what's wrong with you?... do you go to church? or do you worship at the alter of ayn?
GWash: "what are the odds that trump can find turkey on a map?"You'd lose. For the same reason your candidate lost. You continually underestimate his abilities. He continually makes you look like a fool. GWash said...what's an 85...is that some kind of code?... how do we feel about your social security getting privatized?... counting on wall street for your retirement?... another transfer of wealth to stock brokers etc to gamble with?... what happens if the market goes south and your 401k and your SS is toast? anyone here counting on medicare?.As a matter of fact the market has been rather good to me. I'm not depending solely on SS. And I think privatization is in SS future. Not for me of course, but for you. The ponzi scam can't go on much longer and congress has to quit raiding the funds.Everything is markets GW. You fuck with them at your own risk.
GWash, I am not in the habit of taking investment or political advice from 12 year olds.But thanks for playing.
GWash, you set em up for that one, they're gonna say the worship at the alter of Ann. I suggest binge watching some conservatives to try to get what they're after. I've been on here for years. It's been harder and harder to communicate with people in a nice back and forth on this blog. As someone else observed correctly, you are very nice.
GWash said..."... maybe you guys are independantly wealthy and not counting on SS or medicare when you retire..."Close. I'm planning to work 'til I drop, so I really don't care about all that shit. Less for parasites like you is more for my kids.Like I said, your President is over there in that trashcan, and it looks like she's over that fit for now. Go on, buy her a drink, GWash. She's lit already, and Huma's not around. You might get lucky.
GWash:Local and state pensions will be bust in short order.Social Security is nearing insolvency.Medicare and Medicaid are unsustainable.Obama borrowed 10+ trillion dollars in eight years.This happened because the stimulus package became temporarily permanent when Harry Reid passed no budget and the 1972 Budget Reconciliation Act, written by Ted Kennedy, forced baseline budgeting on the Y-o-Y federal budget.Flexibility has been reduced.The system is brittle, accordingly.Your complaint is noted, useless and ignorant though it may be.Complaining suits you, though, so do carry on.
"i'm just trying find out how far you guys are in the tank for anything trump/republican."I would like to know if you are so in the tank for Hillary that you would do unmentionable things to her stinking carcass.Or Huma'sYou are misstating things that you should know if you pretend to undertsnad policy.Bush had a pretty good proposal for Social Security reform. Bush wanted to modernize Social Security and ensure its fiscal integrity, but without raising taxes cutting benefits for current or near-retirees, or investing Social Security funds directly in the stock market. To achieve this goal, Bush convened a bipartisan Commission to Strengthen Social Security.The commission recommended three different reform plans, each of which established a system of voluntary personal accounts. "Personal accounts improve retirement security by facilitating wealth creation and providing participants with assets that they own and that can be inherited, rather than providing only claims to benefits that remain subject to political negotiation," the commission's final report said. "By allowing investment choice, individuals would be free to pursue higher expected rates of return on their Social Security contributions."The stock market had a heart attack in 2008 but that was mostly because of Democrat policies that they accelerated in 2006 after taking Congress. Where is the Dow now.?Paul Ryan had a fairly good plan for Medicare which was trashed by the Democrats who ran ads showing him pushing old ladies in wheelchairs off cliffs,None of it is serious policy making. Obamacare is a disaster because they assemble a group of 25 year old lawyers and insurance industry lobbyists and and let them have what they want.Try to get serious. If you can.
Michael, K & Drago,And it was even brought up controversially in the campaign. A big nothing but some tried to make something of his Turkish partner.IIRC, Trump doesn't own the hotel but just gets a royalty for them using his name. You are both still absolutely right, though. Trump probably knows more about Turkey and any 7 people on this blog. John Henry
For the lunatic left:Kate Bush - Cloudbusting - Official Music Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pllRW9wETzw
SJWs tried to protest Scott Walker. He won election and recall and improved his control over govt. SJWs tried to protest Chik-Fil-A on gay marriage. CFA surpassed KFC to be the biggest chicken chain in the world. Even though KFC has 3 times the stores and CFA is closed Sunday. SJWs protested Memories Pizza because it would not cater a hypothetical gay wedding. they closed for 2 weeks until the protesters got tired and went away. Since they they have received $850,000 in small donations from people who think they got a raw deal.SJWs tried to intimidate electors into changing their votes for Hilary. She lost about 10 votes. Actually 4 because states ignored the other 6 electors.SJWs: I think you are doing it wrong. In fact, I invite you to drag me into your crosshairs. Seems like a good business opportunity and I can always use some free publicity. I'll be for or against anything you want me to be. John Henry
"Donald Trump's pledge to move the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem poses monumental challenges in one of the world's most tense environments, according to experts."Heh."But non-governmental organizations have pointed to a host of concerns with Tillerson's new role ...""What's good for Exxon is not necessarily good for America," said Zorka Milin, senior legal advisor at Global Witness."Heh.OK, GWash, like you said, we're all in this together. But something tells me I'm going to enjoy the ride more than you are. Yee-haw! Let 'er buck, Chuck!
So when do all the Democrat movie stars move to Canada? I mean, TRUMP WON!!!So, are they packing?
MK i'm being serious privatizing SS was soundly reject by americans... so much so that bush dropped it like a hot potato... paul ryan's medicare plan leaves us paying much more at a time when most americans income is at its lowest.. ryan to me is a fraud, a wannabe economics player without really any viable ideas that do not do more harm than good... and we will have to disagree on 2008, i see it as a result of deregulation of the financial markets, wild spending on medicare prescriptions, tax cuts to the wealthy and 8 years of wars that were not budgeted for.. most of all of these problems lie at the feet of republicans with democratic help... bush/obama and stimulus spending saved my (and probably your) 401K to the point where it has almost tripled since 2008.. and saved millions of jobs in the process... where as mulvaney who is proposed as budget director wanted to default a couple of times on us debt.. a disasterous, insane move that would have killed us for years trying to recover..
jupiter that we can agree on... you are going to enjoy this ride and i hope i'll come around and join you... however, doesn't look promising to me yet...
SS can be fixed without too much trouble, & Trump said he's not going to touch it. Privatization is not necessary.Medicare along with demographics is the juggernaut that destroys the budgets going forward. Delaying benefits will be necessary, count on it. A debt crisis would be much worse. If it can be avoided.
gwash" i'm just trying find out how far you guys are in the tank for anything trump/republican... are you willing to roll over and just take whatever these guys are selling... it's coming... they want to privatize SS and medicare, this means more for them and less for you... what happens if you are retiring and the market is in the shape it was in 2008? and ALL of your money is in the market (securities or bonds) and now your the SS you counted on as a 'guaranteed' income and which you and presumably your employer paid into is pretty much gone and the 401K which you saved in order to have a reasonable life style in retirement is also gone... maybe you guys are independantly wealthy and not counting on SS or medicare when you retire..."You are being hysterical. "They" are not going to priviatize SS & medicare. If we suddenly find ourselves in 2008 with all , all, of our money in the market we would be, what's the word, stupid and would have learned nothing from 2008. On the other hand, had we, or you, learned anything from 2008 you would know that the stock market at that point was a dart board upon which you would be a Texas sharpshooter. You would not, could not, miss. So there is that. Unfortunately I was on an airplane the night of the election and I was watching not the election returns but the futures market. If I could have parachuted off that plane and into a trading room I could have made some real money. Many people not on airplanes did.Because the world is not set up for you to win, dude. You just now figuring that out?
Have you been looking at recent pictures of Obama? He looks like a guy going to his own funeral. He seems aware that he has failed badly and that most of his "achievements" are going to be undone in Trump's first 100 days. The Chinese grabbed our drone just to put egg on his face in the last days. The world's lack of respect for him is breaking through. The Iranians are basically saying "What treaty?". History is not going to be kind to Obama.I do not understand those that say we'll be in a war in 100 days. Trump has consistently said he is against meddling in others affairs militarily. There is already a war going on in the ME. The Chinese aren't going to go to war with us no matter how belligerent they talk. (Count the comparative carrier forces - they can.) The Russians have to be stretched thin militarily and given Trumps apparent determination I doubt they will do anything serious. Russia's carrier fleet is obsolete. They may have some first line land units, but not enough to be a serious threat. Putin will take what he is given - who wouldn't? Trump will not be the soft touch that Obama has been. Tough talk will happen, but I very much doubt that anyone will make enough mistakes to involve us in war. It's about time we did some tough talking in our own interest.
But hey, Barry said."In fact, income gains were actually larger for households at the bottom and the middle than for those at the top. And we have done all this while cutting our deficits by nearly two-thirds, and protecting vital investments that grow the middle class," Sure gonna miss this guys genius
I was reading some German newspapers to learn more about the very depressing truck mass murder in Berlin, and I ran across several commenters hoping that Trump and other foreign leaders would put pressure on Merkel to change her refugee policy. No lie. Trump could spend less on election advertising, in part, because the news cycle worked to his benefit. Sadly so.
PS: This IS utterly weird. I suspect some of this will be a good weird and some will be bad, but I am still glad I voted for Trump. A national government should not have its own auctioneer, and that's what we would have gotten in Hillary. If the Dems don't like it, they should try running a nice respectable governor of a state and see what happens.
"Almost every country on Earth sees America as stronger and more respected today than they did eight years ago. "YeahHe really said that with a straight face.How can you not do better than that?
Social Security is nearing insolvency.That is a mind bogglingly stupid statement. One I hear every day but still mind bogglingly stupid.Social Security can no more go broke, become insolvent, that the Army can. Or more analogously, the federal food stamp program can. It can be defunded. It can't "go broke".remember the Obamacare case in the Supremes? It found that the govt could not make people buy insurance. For Obamacare to be Constitutional, the SC had to find that the premiums were a "tax".SS had the same problem back in the 30s when it was being proposed. See this article about "A tea Party That Changed History"https://www.ssa.gov/history/tea.htmAt one point in the afternoon Secretary Perkins found herself seated next to Justice Stone, and in their small talk he inquired as to how her work was going. The Secretary freely admitted they were stuck on the Administration's new Social Security bill, and were uncertain on what basis the new program should be founded. Upon hearing this, the Justice looked around to see if anyone was listening, leaned over to her, and putting his hand up to his mouth, whispered, "The taxing power of the Federal Government, my dear; the taxing power is sufficient for everything you want and need." The Secretary excitedly returned to her staff and announced she had made up her mind, they would base the new program on the government's power to tax. (She never told them how she had finally come to this insight.)SS is a welfare program pure and simple. It can no more "go broke" than any other welfare program. It can only get to costly to the point where it gets defunded, pensioners are means tested or whatever. All those payments you made to SS? You have no more right to them then you do to the money you paid in income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes or any other tax.John Henry
I hope someone got a picture of the look on Bill Clinton's face when he got to the Electoral College and there were no coeds.
When does Trump start to get medical care from the military with regular monitoring? He really seems to have aged since he came down the elevator in Trump Tower 8 months ago.12/19/16, 5:26 PMMore wishful thinking from the left. Trump's vitality is actually pretty astounding. During the last few weeks of the campaign he was visiting 2 or 3 states a day, campaigning hard, and since his election, he's been dividing time between interviewing prospective cabinet meeting and having other meetings at Trump Tower and flying around on his "Thank You" tour. It would be a punishing schedule for a man half his age. In contrast, the Queen Bee took whole weeks off from her campaign (although she always made time to speak to wealthy donors) and relied on surrogates - Chelsea, Bill, Michelle, Obama, Kaine - to do the heavy lifting for her. She didn't feel she had to campaign because she was the Annointed One after all, but she also didn't seem to have the pep to do it. Trump christened Jeb "low energy" but her campaign made Jeb look like the Energizer Bunny in comparison.But if you want to feel that Trump is physically weak and ailing, despite all the evidence that he is not - well, keep hope alive.
Huh, so Lawrence Lessig was totally lying when he claimed that there were 20 Trump electors ready to shift their votes. Or even when he claimed "a handful." Why does a hearse horse snicker . . . ? Imagine if lawprofs were held to the same standards as people who issue securities.
You all are morons if you are relying on SS for your retirement. My husband and I planned for retirement since we started working and we both retired at 57. But as I said we planned carefully and invested wisely. Now we don't have to worry about Social Security going bust.
If the Dems don't like it, they should try running a nice respectable governor of a state and see what happens.12/19/16, 8:39 PMRather slim pickings there. Martin O'Malley didn't exactly set the world on fire, did he? Moonbeam Brown will be 82 in 2020. I can think of few politicians who scream "out of touch coastal elite" more than Andrew Cuomo. What other "nice respectable governors" do they have?
Feh, Tim Kaine?
Thats great Peggy, but have you seen what the median couple has saved on their own?That is a downright scary number. Many will subsist on whats left of SS. At least one can't outlive that benefit like you can a retirement account(s).
"At least one can't outlive that benefit like you can a retirement account(s)."Can't leave it to your children, either. Social security is not wealth.
Victoria said...Diogenes, Like they never scrutinized Obama? --Depends on the "they" being referenced.
"Almost every country on Earth sees America as stronger and more respected today than they did eight years ago. "Unfortunately, Obama's former Secretary of Defense sees it otherwise.
For instance, the network deemed so "neutral" they're on the screens in airports etc.
"You all are morons if you are relying on SS for your retirement. My husband and I planned for retirement since we started working and we both retired at 57. But as I said we planned carefully and invested wisely. Now we don't have to worry about Social Security going bust."Isn't it true that, statistically, huge numbers of Americans don't have satisfactory retirement funds, or even dough to deal w/ some unexpected expense north of ten grand?At some point those folks and others w/o houses all over the world may get fussy. For now the DJT-era seems to be an ideal time for capable folks to pile it up as fast while DJT facilitates the capillary action/trickle while he placates normal folks re gays, blackies, wetbacks, Mooslims, this or that anecdotal company, etc. If normal dough folks didn't blink when they heard DJT didn't pay income taxes because he lost his banker's money, why should really rich folks even bother feeling sorry for normal folks?I know I'd feel less worried about normal Americans getting what they deserve, if I were really rich. Presumably, Cap Ferrat is great. Presumably, glorious (but scary, at times) roads. So, F normal folks, you wouldn't be un-rich if you worked harder and were smarter.
Better chance of moving the needle in the right direction than under Hil, Jelly.
Even Alec Baldwin should thank him.
Social security is not wealth.12/19/16, 9:16 PMHa, not even close, which is why I said "subsist"
Yes..well..even incredibly modest proposals to allow a semblance of invested appreciation was met with a "NOT THE STOCK MARKET!" response.
Is it just me, or was PB&J's last comment incomprehensible? Hittin' the old Christmas cheer a bit early, I reckon.We know from Obama that "rich" is workers making $250k/year, not billionaires living off their capital.
I predict it will continue to be strange.... bad strange.
Drago,"GWash, could you at least make the minimum effort necessary to learn/understand the bare essentials for a productive dialogue?"Pretty sure that's not what he gets paid for.
Walt, Like Althouse, I'm hoping it'll work out (which by my definition means average folks will continue to (start to?) live happy lives (whatever that means).But, I'd rather be concerned, vocal, and pushy for such on the frontend w/ DJT rather than simply stopping at "hope," aka grasping at straws while being an apologist.OTOH, I'm not sure I should care about the well being of some average Americans. Anyone from rural areas where folks don't strive, learn and contribute to the 21st century (i.e., for the most part, get away from where they are) is the same as the folks who want the Bern to pay for everything. They're both losers who can't become winners, so they'll settle for trying to bring the winners DOWN to their level. Of course, they're too stupid to know that won't work.Whatevs. Really rich folks are way beyond the reach of all y'all in the spiteful class.
Jelly's suggesting woefully under-doughed Americans are being placated by xenophobic rhetoric etc while the rich, orchestrated by Trump, grab what's left and there will be eventual mass unrest.
Just how stupid do those Hollywood idiots who appealed to the electoral voters to not vote for Trump look today?To be fair, they looked pretty stupid yesterday. The delta isn't that large.
Cross posted..duly noted.However, though exact numbers and terms have been a bit wavering. Do you remember a prez of late surfacing even the potential of economic positives like this prior to inauguration? Sure..it could all fall to shit..but the collective butthurt out there should take note.
John Henry:Insolvent at current promised benefit payments is accurate. That those benefits will not be paid at currently promised levels because the printing of money will cause unacceptable levels of inflation...Yeah, we could get into the specifics. But what I wrote is shorthand for the stupid. If you are not stupid then you should assume both you and I know more than we are willing to type in this blog comment section.But do go on with your explanations. Others might find them useful.
"Conspiracy theorist Alex Jones has been repeatedly warning President-elect Donald Trump that “rogue elements” within the CIA are trying to “assassinate” him before he takes office. Trump, who has been publicly feuding with the CIA in recent weeks, reportedly speaks to Jones on the phone and watches his videos. He has previously echoed Jones' other conspiracy theories and rhetoric. ALEX JONES: Why I’m really concerned is that this could be used inside government to trigger emergency systems under COG (continuity of government) that if a major leader like the president is actually a foreign agent they can then reportedly be taken out. And so to have the bold move of implying that a president-elect is being manipulated and controlled by the Russians is a very, very serious telltale sign that they could be thinking about bringing in outside mercenaries or other agencies to actually try to assassinate the 45th president of the United States, Donald Trump, before he even gets into office. Because remember: They are incredibly desperate right now."LOL. Yes it's getting even stranger, if that's possible.
Walt,cross post, yup.Anywho, I spend a lot of time in rural residences in the States, where there are a lot of DJT signs and red hats. And, even though I seem anti-social and asshole-y here, I'm a social butterfly w/ the hickory boys and gals.And, IMHO, the last thing folks in these areas need is more psychological reinforcement of the idea that their way of life is valuable. It is not. That's a mathematical fact. Value comes w/ a dollar sign, so this isn't a POV.Just as some cons/Rs like to note that urban minorities need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, this sentiment is even more true for rural excuse makers. IMHO.
"Whatevs. Really rich folks are way beyond the reach of all y'all in the spiteful class."Ha! It's those intent on drilling down/exploiting class division that phrase things that way.C'mon, man..it's all about.."hope" ;)
Ah..so what do you suggest they do, Jelly? You know..to improve their mathematical value? Move to the city and tech themselves up?
They should put all their hope in Trump...of course.
Actually, there seems to be a general shortage of folks in the trades. Those kinds of jobs could dovetail with "their way of life"
Unknown said...They should put all their hope in Trump...of course.--Well..Hil's speechifyin' career just didn't inspire them...or give them "HOPE"
They're more concerned about a roof over their heads vs the glass ceiling.
What Alex Jones has to say is of very little interest to anybody here besides Unknown.Keep hope alive, Unknown :)
Yes, yes, we know Trump will put a chicken in every pot. Trump is going to bring their jobs back, you betcha!
I have hope, I'm a true believer now. I'm a born again Tumpist. Praise Trump!!
But yes..truly rural folk..farm folk..farmhands..forget it. Even in Wisco, those jobs are occupied largely by..err..immigrants. I have FULL confidence they are you know.."documented". Full confidence.Oh noess...the xenophobe card awaits..
All those payments you made to SS? Gee, aren't they sitting in a little tin box (HT to Guys and Dolls)?SS will have to be changed substantially. Higher taxes, raising the cap on when SS tax drops. Raising retirement age. Lower benefits. Means testing of benefits. Fiddling (some more) with CPI..... possibly other things. But it will have to be done.Rant time----Peggy, I'm with you all the way. Sacrifice today and watch it grow.320 Busdriver: "Thats great Peggy, but have you seen what the median couple has saved on their own?" And why should that be cause for my concern, Buss?My sympathy level for MOST of these people approaches zero. Some have been dealt a bad hand so that living paycheck to paycheck (at least seems) the only way possible. For most that isn't true. But they have not learned to save for and THEN buy that shiny new object. Or to pay yourself first by putting a bit away every payday. I started with $5 every two weeks when fresh out of school. Then every raise I added a bit. Eventually it becomes something worth having.Don't tell me it can't be done. Judy's mother became a single mother of 6 many, many years ago. She ever made close to $20,000 per year. Yet, when she could no longer work the family asked me to handle the finances. When I began looking into her multiple bank accounts I was astonished. That little woman had put away over $70,000 in just CDs and savings accounts.
"Ah..so what do you suggest they do, Jelly? You know..to improve their mathematical value? Move to the city and tech themselves up?"I can see how libs who don't know them would say that.But I know that that suggestion would be no less motivational/effective if it was given in Mandarin. It's not that DJT/Berner folks who are left behind in the 21st century think they can win, I believe that a lot of them know they can't win. But, misery loves company: so blame others, try to sink others, and mooch off others.
Unknown #?, transpose Hil into that and see how much more ridiculous your statements seem.
I don't care about Hillary. I'm praising Trump, don't interrupt me, I'm on a roll.
Jelly, so you are a social butterfly who mentally fucks them over? Nice.Wait..what was your suggestion?
Do not fear, Trump is here. All is well.
Oh..I know you view it as understanding them. but don't you agree about trades?Around here we have older construction, plumbers and electricians who won't give it up because they can command enough to make it worth sticking it out.
Speaking of strange one of Unknown's friends, a New York state employee named Charles Walz posted this on his Facebook page:“To all my friends that live in red voting states, you have 2 months to move. After that, if you don’t do not consider us friends. I want you dead. I want your families dead. I want your wives, husbands children and grandchildren dead. Not just dead but horrible painful deaths.”“Torturous cancers — bone, brain,” his twisted post continued. “Burning alive in a fire. Drownings. Wives and daughters or should I say your c***s as you Republicans like to call them should be brutally raped first.”Sounds a bit like R & B after an especially bad day.You're lovely people, you leftists.This delightful creature works for New York State Office for People with Developmental Disabilities. He has not lost his job - of course not!
It isn't over until Obama relinquiahes the White House.
(ignoring the unknown trolling)
Walt,I know, very well in fact, some folks who are big Alex Jones fans, since that seems to have come up in this thread. Of course, I don't show all my cards to folks who talk about chemtrails. Idiots require sussing out. Maybe it's slumming, and it's wrong, I dunno. Whatever it is, I do it in these threads, too.
Vicky from Pasadena wrote: Oh, BTW, i [sic] never did like Obama that much, never thought much of his administration.Failure is an orphan.
Here's the story with a screenshot of Walz's entire Facebook rant. He was honest enough to write what Unknown and other leftists actually wish for us:http://conservativetribune.com/government-employee-demand
Jelly, a bit non-sequitur, really...and avoiding quite specific questions. Put aside your class-o-phobia for a bit to address the previous.
(you've been here far too long to not show yer cards)
"Blogger 320Busdriver said..."Almost every country on Earth sees America as stronger and more respected today than they did eight years ago. "YeahHe really said that with a straight face.How can you not do better than that?12/19/16, 8:39 PM"Bush probably agrees with Obama, because Bush would never, ever want someone to call him racist. Bush saw/sees this as his strength he was and remains so weak.
Walt,I'm in favor of whatever you say.Presumably: BHO and libs and MSM = bad. Constitutional conservative and Founding Fathers = good.Got it.
Ahhhh..still not showing yer cards. Do it for "Obama voter Ann Althouse".
I love Trump, no mean I lovvvvvve him, mmmm, mmm gimme some of that Trump.
And why should that be cause for my concern, Buss?I would say it's not unless you are raising kids. Then its critical to teach them how important it is to save and especially to start early. The fact is that most of those nearing retirement(56-61) have saved practically nothing. (Mean 163k/median 17k). So Peggy is surrounded by morons. Also it makes repairing SS pretty important given those stats, unless you can afford armed guards.They should require that all HS students read "the millionaire next door." I bet Peggy resembles some of the people in the book.
You mean like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ty7WU872Lk
But back to Jelly, come clean..the tell all..anonymously here.
"Newt Gingrich has a take on how Donald Trump can keep from running afoul of U.S. ethics laws: Change the ethics laws."Yes, change the laws for our Leader!
Unknown said...I love Trump, no mean I lovvvvvve him, mmmm, mmm gimme some of that Trump."Nah. You're filled with hate, like Charles Walz. However, you're also extremely amusing and I enjoy laughing at you.
What the fuck are you quoting now, "unknown"?Link or you are dismissed..
Ethics be damned. Our Leader don't need no stinkin' ethics.https://www.publicintegrity.org/2016/12/19/20564/donald-trumps-sons-behind-nonprofit-selling-access-president-elect"A new Texas nonprofit led by Donald Trump’s grown sons is offering access to the freshly-minted president during inauguration weekend — all in exchange for million-dollar donations to unnamed “conservation” charities, according to interviews and documents reviewed by the Center for Public Integrity.And the donors’ identities may never be known."
Were you talking to me?http://www.politico.com/blogs/donald-trump-administration/2016/12/newt-gingrich-trump-ethics-laws-congress-232828
Feh. Politico is fake news. I never read your links, unknown, since they all come from bullshit sources.Good night troll. Continue talking to yourself.
Pizzagate is real!
One at a time "unknown". you are currently deemed "spastic"
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/311111-gingrich-suggests-trump-pardon-advisers-who-break-the-law"Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich suggested that Donald Trump could pardon members of his administration who break the law. Referring to a law that could prevent Trump from hiring his daughter and son-in-law to serve in his administration, Gingrich said on "The Diane Rehm Show" Monday morning: “In the case of the president, he has a broad ability to organize the White House the way he wants to. He also has, frankly, the power of the pardon.""Oh sorry, we know The Hill is fake news too. Pardon a thousand pardons.
Sportsfans/Wanna see what a "privatized" SS plan looks like? Google the "Galveston Plan"--beats the HELL out of standard SS and its been up and running for almost half a century with a proven track record. Check it out..
"Pizza maps are a thing!"
No, I'm just fast.
irgil xenophon said...Wanna see what a "privatized" SS plan looks like? --They don't! It's too closely associated with the dreaded "private sector"..and associated returns..but don't talk about that because capitalism=bad.
"Value comes w/ a dollar sign, so this isn't a POV."I made her cum with a gold dildo too, the dollar sign smelled of pungent tuna.
There are extremely proscribed times where I cautiously entertain having what guildy is having..
Doesn't she spell it "Vah Lé Ooh" though?I asked her how to spell it but never saw it written down, just her going down while her value kept rising in my book.
"Nah. You're filled with hate, like Charles Walz. However, you're also extremely amusing and I enjoy laughing at you.12/19/16, 11:03 PM"I get my act stolen more here than Hank Kingsley Jr. did in H-Town.Fuckers. Why is every fucker always stealing my act? I will sic some sick attorneys on these dogless bastards so fast it'll make their spinning heads static.
God knows what our Jelly administers to America's great unwashed, our deplorables... Sounds like reasonable "dough"...
The cherry on top of the sundae is the fact that Hillary lost more electors than Trump did.
Abie Someone wrote : Were you talking to me?Remarkably appropriate
The cherry on top of the sundae is the fact that Hillary lost more electors than Trump did.And a delicious cherry it was.
"We demand more scrutiny!" wait"Stop with all the scrutiny!"Observe the err..vibe..
The uncertainties and desperate moves are over.Yeah, now it's back to the usual lefty playbook, blaming everything that goes wrong on the Republicans. Or I should say, continue as it's already started. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so irresponsible.
@GWash:Social Security takes 12.5% of your pre-tax income, assuming you make what most people make, which is well under the cap.If you had control of that money, you could start at age 25, and invest that money. You would be no worse off than you are now, because you do not see that money.If you retire at 65, then you can buy an annuity with the money you saved. Supposing you live to be 85, you can retire with 87.5% of your income, which is pretty much all you ever had to spend because you were saving 12.5%.The real interest rate needed to make this happen is only 4%, CDs aren't paying that much these days but you can find things that do.As you get closer to 65 you move more of your money into safer things so that you are much less likely to be affected by what the market is doing. It's very simple and doable.This is why I said you should ask your mom to hire a nanny instead of making us all pay into Social Security.Social Security has no magic pot of money, it's all either taxation, which has to come out of the profits of the market just like annuities and other investments do, or it has to come out of inflation, which is simply theft of your money.
GWash never heard of the Nestor ruling. Gabriel and John Henry, spot on. GWash, this year the SS wage cap is $119,000. It goes up every year. But the benefit doesn't scale equally. Government workers should be forced to receive no more than what they would have received under SS. A hell of a lot less for most of them.
I just read that CNN had a breaking headline- "Election Still Too Close To Call."
Inga still clueless that the corruption is all Clinton. No links to that hot mess.
John Henry @ 8:42.You're right. Except...............It is a form of Ponzi scam in that there is no money in the account. That in itself is problematic but at some point the number of recipients will exceed the systems ability to sustain it. There is no money there. just IOUs. The retired or soon to be retired will be receiving funds that their children and grandchildren are contributing now. There are three obvious ways to solve this. First option is to raise taxes. Not a very popular option. Secondly congress could authorize printing more money. A stupid option since inflation would take away any gains. Or thirdly, phase in a market based system that gives the individual investment options. Much like a national 401K.
Unknown said..."Do not fear, Trump is here. All is well."Not quite. try this.Do not fear. Hillary will never be president. All will be well despite what Trump gets up to.It's going to be a long four years for you because you still don't get it.But bless your heart.
vicki in Pasadena: Still, I think within the first 100 days, we are going to be knee deep in a war, not good.HT: Sadly, I see war...Of all the strange psychological attributes of the Trump-o-phobes, nothing beats the lack of comprehension of just how deep in war we already are and have been for a long time, and the 180-from-reality conviction that Trump, but not Hillary (or Obama) is a dangerous "war monger".Or is it that you guys just didn't get as much "we came, we saw, he died", and potentially continent-wrecking destabilization, as you wanted, and are sad that we're going to be only "knee deep", and not up to the gills in war, as you would prefer?
Who wants to bet that Unknown will be here viciously defending BHO during the next few weeks when Obama pardons pretty much his entire administration for breaking laws?
Projection illustrated: Of all the strange psychological attributes of the Trump-o-phobes, nothing beats the lack of comprehension of just how deep in war we already are and have been for a long time, and the 180[-degree]-from-reality conviction that Trump, but not Hillary (or Obama) is a dangerous "war monger".Right on Anglelyne. Get a clue Progs. We are at war. We've been at war the whole time Obama has been occupying the WH. The only person who thought he ended the war was Obama. He forgot that the enemy has a vote. Hillary started the refugee crisis in Libya and Obama worsened the one in Syria and they set the stage for a war in Europe. If it comes it won't be because Trump was elected but because the globalist elites have been very wrong about just how much displacement people can take, how unaccountable politicians have put their own people at risk to prove their flimsy "multicultural is good" theory wrong, before a spark starts it all burning across the Continent.Trump ran on staying OUT of other countries' business and putting ISIS down for good. He is the anti-warmonger. But the projection of Progs is strong. Stronger than their vision apparently.
The "shocking experience" and "extraordinary opportunity" that is Donald Trump.On last Sunday's "Face the Nation," we heard from Henry Kissinger:Donald Trump is a phenomenon that foreign countries haven’t seen. So it is a shocking experience to them that he came into office, at the same time, extraordinary opportunity. And I believe he has the possibility of going down in history as a very considerable presidentin Terms if /dr. K. Shirley you jest. there's nothing new in the world. He's teaching Barron out of the Bio of Philip II Spain. see my earlier comment on the shocking experience" and "extraordinary opportunity" that is Donald Trump. That d@m Andrew Jackson knows no limits and has no respect for past rules. Though he will be bound by the Consition he will be strikingly inventive within the rules. What happens if advise and consent is reduced to A&C over a hastag. It's a world after all. Term limit everything. Congress only meets for a year every four. With a minimal stipend so they have to go earn a living the other three. Apply Gen. Eisenhower's recipe for disestablishing the military industrial complex everywhere. Where populism is the opposite of everything we know today. City manager? Well, we'll hire a country manager, who's job is to keep everyone else moving towards their objectives as defined by their electorate. No more parties or establishments. Jacksonian indeed. Also good fun.
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