November 21, 2016

"I henceforth grant to all priests, in virtue of their ministry, the faculty to absolve those who have committed the sin of procured abortion."

Writes Pope Francis. Abortion remains "a grave sin," but "there is no sin that God’s mercy cannot reach and wipe away when it finds a repentant heart seeking to be reconciled with the Father."

83 comments:

Jon Ericson said...

Nice. Do it and have it wiped away.
Yeah, go with that.
That'll work.

gspencer said...

What is it about this guy? Does he think he's finding some kind of new constitutional right by his "pronouncement" on abortion?

In any event there's higher authority on this matter than the current pope. "Thou shall not kill" was part of the message given to Moses. See Exodus. Abortion does not stand apart from any other sin.

The only sin ever deemed unpardonable was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Matt 12:31-32; Mark 3:28.

Tank said...

Pope = A Dope.

traditionalguy said...

Good news from Pope Francis. Catholic Legalism met Paul's gospel of Redemption and the good news won.

MikeR said...

"when it finds a repentant heart". I can go with that. But that's not the normal case, is it?
Does the Catholic Church still find that abortion equals murder? I think one might say this about murder as well, again with severe limitations.

Henry said...

How about letting priests absolve each other of marital relations?

Ann Althouse said...

Is the Christian religion not about the forgiveness of sins?

If you are Christian, are you not afraid that your scoffing at forgiveness is itself a sin in need of forgiveness?

Otto said...

Christianity 101. Amazing from comments and AA how ignorant our world is of Christianity. We truly live in a secular culture.

Gusty Winds said...

Foregivness of sins only requires personal repentance. Ask and you shall receive.

It doesn't require permission from the Pope.

Gahrie said...
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PatHMV said...

Here's a good summary of current Catholic doctrine prior to this most recent decree by the Pope:

http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu70.htm

In short, abortion was on a small list of sins that, simply by committing it, resulted in the sinner being excommunicated from the Church. Like all sins, under Catholic doctrine, it is capable of absolution, but the difference is that only the Pope and bishops and priests SPECIFICALLY authorized to grant absolution for procuring or causing an abortion could do so. Now, it appears, the Pope is granting such authority to all priests.

Gahrie said...

I wonder if they can obtain this absolution in advance? Can they obtain multiple absolutions? Would it help their case if they made a small donation to the Church? What do we call such absolutions? May I suggest indulgences?

Seriously the Pope just gave Catholic women the A-OK to have an abortion.

I bet there are at least a dozen Cardinals who are trying to figure out why the number of Catholics is shrinking all over the world right now.....

Gahrie said...
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Gahrie said...

But what the Hell, as long as women never have to feel bad about their actions........

Sydney said...

Thank you for that clarification, PatHMV. I was under the impression that priests could already absolve sins of the repentant. Didn't realize there were special channels for murder.

Jane the Actuary said...

Here's the problem: people don't seem to understand sin and forgiveness. Every now and again the mainstream press has an article about Catholic women and abortion, and you get statements like, from a woman planning an abortion, "It's OK because I know that God will forgive me" -- in other words, treating forgiveness as automatic rather than requiring repentance. Or, afterwards, women simultaneously saying, "God forgave me for my abortion" and "I don't regret my abortion" -- when, last I checked, pretty much any religion with a concept of sin and forgiveness, requires that the sinner actually acknowledge and repent of the sin.

This is, of course, true for every kind of sin. You can't start carrying on an affair with the rationalization that "God forgives my sins," either.

The fact that, in the confessional, a priest may now absolve the sin of abortion, does not mean that the pope has declared that abortion is now OK. But, unfortunately, the same sort of people that think that it's OK to get an abortion because, heck, all you have to do afterwards is say you're sorry, will think this.

And CNN furthered this line of thought in their line-up of headlines this morning: Pope says abortion forgiveable, Irish couple tweets their travel to the UK for an abortion, mail-order abortion being studied in the UK: the whole world is discovering that abortion is just fine!

320Busdriver said...
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320Busdriver said...

I don't think many outsiders understand or experience the efforts the Catholic church undertakes in promoting a culture of life. That is more important in todays world.

JAORE said...

Repentant heart might just make this less of a game changer than some believe.

But, since I can not see into a fellow human's heart (nor can they, despite the apparent belief to the contrary, see into mine) I'll go with the confession to be heartfelt.

Farmer said...

The fact that, in the confessional, a priest may now absolve the sin of abortion, does not mean that the pope has declared that abortion is now OK. But, unfortunately, the same sort of people that think that it's OK to get an abortion because, heck, all you have to do afterwards is say you're sorry, will think this.

I really doubt it. I travel a lot for work and have gone to Mass and confession all over the U.S.and Europe. The lines for confession are invariably short or non-existent. Anybody with the attitude you refer to is extremely unlikely to consider themselves to be in need of the sacrament in the first place.

The type of people who are going to welcome this are the same type of people who seek marriage annulments - they're serious about the faith. If they were looking for an easy way out they'd do nothing. After all, that's what most other Catholics do. Going to confession is the difficult route. All that's changed is it's gotten a little easier now, since the penitent doesn't have to go through a legalistic chain of command up to the bishop. That's always seemed to me counterproductive. If the goal is to offer the sincere penitent forgiveness, why submit them to a process that ultimately does little more than shame them, thus making it less likely that they'll approach the sacrament? They're clearly already ashamed or they wouldn't have sought out the sacrament in the first place.

Skipper said...

I guess he endorses the strategy that it is better to act now and beg forgiveness later than seek permission aforehand.

Gahrie said...

If the goal is to offer the sincere penitent forgiveness, why submit them to a process that ultimately does little more than shame them

Perhaps to prevent a re-occurrence of the sin, by that individual or others?

Shame has a purpose, which is why the Left works so hard to delegitimize it.

The Cracker Emcee said...

A great example of why I have little to do with the Catholic Church I grew up in. Not because I'm an absolutist but because of the absurd notion that the Pope can just pull these things out of his ass and they're somehow valid. God doesn't change.

Anglelyne said...

Gahrie: But what the Hell, as long as women never have to feel bad about their actions........

Apparently you're aware of a path to repentance and absolution that by-passes all that "feel bad" stuff. Do tell.

I Callahan said...

Nice. Do it and have it wiped away.
Yeah, go with that.
That'll work.


Apparently, you don't understand the Catholic faith. You actually have to be sorry for what you did - genuinely sorry. Otherwise, it's all moot.

I don't care for abortion at all. I think it should be left up to the states as to whether it should be legal, from a political standpoint. From a Catholic standpoint, this is completely consistent with scriptures and Catholic teaching. I don't know why everyone has their panties in a bunch over this.

I Callahan said...

Does he think he's finding some kind of new constitutional right by his "pronouncement" on abortion?

Another person who doesn't know about Catholicism. The pope's word is considered infallible. Whatever pronouncement he makes regarding the Catholic faith, becomes set law. The Church isn't some parliamentary or congressional system that has to have a majority of voters to make a change.

I Callahan said...

Foregivness of sins only requires personal repentance. Ask and you shall receive.

It doesn't require permission from the Pope.


Spoken like a true Protestant. Notice the word "protest" in that term.

I Callahan said...

Pope can just pull these things out of his ass and they're somehow valid.

That's the way it's been since the beginning of Christianity. The fact that people today can look at that and say it's wrong is laughable. Catholics were the first Christians - if seniority meant anything, it means Catholics have the correct view here.

Gahrie said...

Apparently you're aware of a path to repentance and absolution that by-passes all that "feel bad" stuff. Do tell.

What do you think is going to happen to priests who develop a reputation of actually requiring that the women truly repent? Or who refuses to grant second and third such absolutions when they become necessary?

Bill said...

I attend Latin Mass in the L.A. area and there are lines at the confessional during Mass, as in the old days. But it's a different crowd.

Gahrie said...

@Angelyne

Do you think Catholic women should be shamed by the Church, priest and congregation, for having an abortion?

Gahrie said...

Apparently, you don't understand the Catholic faith. You actually have to be sorry for what you did - genuinely sorry. Otherwise, it's all moot.

So you believe no unrepentants have ever sought absolution?

mikeski said...

The pope's word is considered infallible.

While true on occasion, actual use of infallibility is quite rare. This declaration is almost certainly not an infallible one.

Ficta said...

"Catholics were the first Christians"

You do realize that Protestants do not agree with this statement, right? That's the whole basis of Protestantism: that the original Christian Church and its doctrines were changed and perverted by the nascent Catholic Church. You can disagree with this point of view, but to merely assert the contrary is no argument.

Robin Eatmon said...

Thought provoking read: http://www.barnhardt.biz/2014/04/01/the-one-about-do-aborted-babies-go-to-heaven/

Wilbur said...

"Another person who doesn't know about Catholicism. The pope's word is considered infallible. Whatever pronouncement he makes regarding the Catholic faith, becomes set law. The Church isn't some parliamentary or congressional system that has to have a majority of voters to make a change."

Infallibility only attaches, when the Pope make an ex cathedra pronouncement. They are rare.

I was raised in a devoutly Catholic home, and attended Catholic schools from K through 12. I realized about age 14 it was all nonsense, and the notion of a God who would intervene in human affairs was too much for me to swallow.

I do not proselytize my views and respect the notion of formal religion and am not a little envious of those who are believers. It is a great comfort to many.

coupe said...
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Bruce Hayden said...

Forgiveness of sins only requires personal repentance. Ask and you shall receive.

It doesn't require permission from the Pope.


That is one of the fundamental differences between Roman Catholicism and mainstream Protestantism. I have always been struck by that scene in the Godfather, where Michael Corleone agrees to be the godfather of his sister's baby, as he is starting his bloody revenge, through execution of all the mobsters who had been enemies, and right before he has the baby's father executed.

I know a woman quite well whose former husband routinely went to Confession and got forgiveness by the priest, after having committed adultery. This went on for years. Week after week. Just give a bunch of Hail Mary's, and that is all it would take (I know that is simplistic). And, then the priest told her that since God had forgiven him, so should she. Her response was that she could forgive him, but could never forget. And, she has forgiven him, over the twenty years since their divorce (which, of course, the Catholic Church wouldn't allow - they expected the couple to stay together, despite two kids out of wedlock, and his continued infidelities).

And, lest anyone forget here, it was this (claimed) power to forgive by the clergy that resulted in (or justified) the indulgences that were being sold by the Roman Catholic Church, which were one of the claimed justifications for the Reformation.

art.the.nerd said...

> gspencer said...

> In any event there's higher authority on this matter than the current pope. "Thou shall not kill" was part of the message given to Moses. See Exodus.

I did "see Exodus." The book, not the movie, in Hebrew. It says "Don't murder". ("Thou shal[l|t]" is an artifact of King James' translators. The Hebrew is much more readable.)

Killing is sanctioned in many places. Moses kills the Egyptian overseer. Pinchas [transliterated in many ways] was rewarded for killing Zimri; see, e.g. this article. Killing a pursuer (rodef) in self defense is explicitly permitted.

I agree with your basic point (abortion is repulsive) but your "proof text" proves no such thing.

Owen said...

Is this like a Presidential pardon?

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

"...there is no sin that God’s mercy cannot reach and wipe away...."

Have any other "sins" been singled out for special mention? If so, why?

And who gets to decide what is and is not a "sin." Where is the complete list published?

William said...

I don't fault the Pope for saying this, but putting the United States under interdiction during Trump's Administration is meddlesome.

Birches said...

I'm guessing Ross Douthat is through the roof about this.

Basil said...

Then what do you need a priest for? The first Methodist Pope. Findamentally transformed.

BTW, where is Pope Benedict? They said he was on death's door years ago.

Anglelyne said...

Gahrie: What do you think is going to happen to priests who develop a reputation of actually requiring that the women truly repent? Or who refuses to grant second and third such absolutions when they become necessary?

You didn't answer my question. How does one get to "true repentance" without ever feeling bad?

You're positing the existence of a peculiar set of people: Women who 1) have multiple abortions, who 2) don't feel guilty about it (aka not truly repentant), but who 3) want access to Catholic absolution between abortions, and who 4)have heretofore not sought absolution only because of procedural difficulties, and who will now 5) be running to the confessional in between abortions because of greater ease of access to absolution/less exposure to shame.

I doubt that class has many members. Regardless, it's not as if using Christian rituals as a form of magic - go through the motions of ritual X and get reward Y - would be unique either to the modern age or to this set of sinners. Neither is relapsing, insincerity, and lack of true repentance.

To answer yours, what happens to priests who take sin, sinners, repentance, and redemption seriously in the case of this specific sin? Same thing that happens to any priest who takes sin, sinners, repentance, and redemption seriously regarding sin in general, I'd imagine. I.e., they get blown off by both the lay people and clergy who are perfectly well-satisfied with that their flexible Catholicism. You appear to be under the impression that women who get abortions, and their apologists, are unique among sinners and their apologists in being self-serving casuists.

JAORE said...

"Apparently, you don't understand the Catholic faith. You actually have to be sorry for what you did - genuinely sorry. Otherwise, it's all moot.

So you believe no unrepentants have ever sought absolution?"

Yes, of course they have sought absolution. And they have received words of absolution from the priest. But, if you believe in an all knowing God (and if you don't, why seek absolution), then God knows you are unrepentant.

Hence the absolution becomes only words, i.e. "moot".

n.n said...

But there is no repentance by the Pro-Choice/abortionists. There is only denial of human rights and evolution. There is only normalization. There is only a political, social, economic, and religious fabric to comfort women (and men) who terminate life unworthy of life.

aritai said...

The sin is standing by while others spend your taxes doing something abhorrent. Paul's second letter says we cannot stop sin by force and save anyone. The sinner has to stop this behavior on their own to save themselves. That's why Jesus (as they believe) god made man, said "lord please please please let this cup pass from me. He knew two things he couldn't save mankind unless he voluntarily made the choice to sacrifice himself, and he was deathly afraid of the decision he knew he had to make and its consequences and his suffering. In the case of Abortion the state should find away to support conscience objector status to anyone who abhors the state funding anything, be it all or a specific war, certain types of research, a laboratory, pipelines, clean air global warming programs, abortion, contraceptives, religious and not institutions funding abortions with their money. Then they can try to save these other lost souls by convincing them they've lost their way, but neither can be saved unless both efforts are voluntary. And even worse the same applies to charity. Forced charity means nothing and counts for nothing towards salvation (which is why the "good Samaritan was someone Jesus held up as the best example of a saintly and saved person). Something else a citizen shoud be able to cross off their taxes. And given today's computers, an itemized tax bill for every major area of expense is easy. And offering a refund on next year's tax bill for those items you claim conscientious objection is also trivial. "but then there'd be no public funding for last semester abortion?" True, find a donor, including those that don't claim conscientious objector status and donors. But maybe if everyone does this the government will go out of business. And be enslaved by someone who will fight and break everyone of the commandments. Yes. Decide.

TreeJoe said...

Two things: This is another positive movement for the Pope to correct centuries of mistakes made by the church. The church, at it's root, is a fallible organization which creates rules, regulations, and processes that it feels are "best" for a given human situation. Ex-communication from the church should not be based on the sin itself, as the church has done. Paul is perhaps the greatest example of this - according to excommunication theory, the Church would not have been around to bring about Paul's conversion.

Second, I read above one member who struggles with the idea of God's involvement in human affairs. If you remain open to re-consideration, please note that throughout written history we have several different approaches from God to humankind. And they all indicate that God gave free will, was surprised at some of the results, and changed his approach along the way. The "end" of the written story is basically that God setup a structure by which human kind has very limited direct intervention from Heaven or Hell but is able to be influenced by both while remaining free of will.

To be completely off the wall, I enjoy fantasy fiction. I find Jim Butcher's Dresden files to do a nice job approaching this "line in the sand" and defense of free will within a broader storyline of magic and mystery well outside of Christian theology.

Paul Snively said...

Huh. Sounds like Christian theology to this Lutheran. Good for the Pope.

Anglelyne said...

Gahrie: So you believe no unrepentants have ever sought absolution?

Lol. Yeah, that really follows from his comment.

Paul Snively said...

Dr. Althouse: If you are Christian, are you not afraid that your scoffing at forgiveness is itself a sin in need of forgiveness?

My beloved pastor David Shoemaker at Shepherd of the Valley Lutheran Church in Silicon Valley once said that you cannot reach up to take the forgiveness offered by God in one hand without reaching down to offer forgiveness to others with the other, or you will end up out of balance, tip over, and fall. Both as a Lutheran pastor's grandson and a student of physics, I loved that analogy.

I also loved that when our choir director nervously confessed that she was agnostic, pastor Shoemaker thought for a moment and said "Well, in the end, agnosticism is the most intellectually honest stance. We don't know." He also remarked that the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod believes the original manuscripts of the Bible were divinely inspired. There's only one problem: we don't have the original manuscripts. We're playing a 2,000-year-old game of "telephone." (Those were his actual words.)

Yeah, I loved pastor Shoemaker, who to me embodied the best of both the Lutheran theological tradition and the Lutheran intellectual tradition.

mockturtle said...

Of course it's a forgivable sin but it is God who forgives, absolution having been given by Christ's sacrifice, those who seek His forgiveness. Not a pope. Not a priest.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I John 1:9.

mockturtle said...

Mr. Snively, I think it's sad what has become of the Lutheran church. Luther would not be pleased.

Sigivald said...

here is no sin that God’s mercy cannot reach and wipe away when it finds a repentant heart seeking to be reconciled with the Father."

Well, obviously.

Even this atheist knows Mark 3:28 - "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme"; in Christian theology the only unforgivable sin is not repenting.

The change in doctrine to allow all the priests to forgive abortion (contingent on repentance, as with all sins) is welcome.

Beyond that it's the usual "media surprised the Pope is Catholic"...

Jeff said...

The policy the Pope just changed never really fit Catholic doctrine to begin with. Priests can grant absolution. There is no scriptural support, nor anything in the writing of Church fathers that I know of, that distinguishes between priests and bishops in this regard. Bishops, cardinals, and even the Pope himself are all, first and foremost, priests. The authority for priests to absolve sins is not a matter of administrative or organizational convenience, like setting the budget for a Diocese would be.

At least that's what I remember from my Catholic days.

I Callahan said...

So you believe no unrepentants have ever sought absolution?

Of course they have. But if you follow Catholic teachings, you know that during confession, not only is the priest listening, but God is listening as well. You can fool the priest, but you can't fool the man upstairs.

If a priest absolves the person of the sin of abortion, it doesn't mean God wasn't looking.

Paul Snively said...

mockturtle: Mr. Snively, I think it's sad what has become of the Lutheran church. Luther would not be pleased.

I don't doubt that for a moment.

On the other hand, let us not turn Brother Martin into an idol. I have recently taken refuge in the bolstering of my faith by re-reading Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy. I recommend it most highly to anyone who wishes to see the beating heart of Lutheranism up against some of the most naked evil humanity has ever experienced.

Of course, let's not stop there. The Lutheran Study Bible is so good that it's often recommended by other Protestant theologians, and I was blessed by my parents last year with the gift of The Book of Concord, which I'm embarrassed to say I had not yet read. It's easy to forget how much we owe to Philip Melanchthon if we don't make a study of the whole German Reformation, and focus solely on Luther.

Still, there's nothing wrong with studying Luther. Luther: Man Between God and the Devil is an excellent biography.

I appreciate your concern for the Lutheran church!

rwnutjob said...

Ann Barnhardt is not a fan.

"Bergoglio was never the pope, not for one second, NOT because he is a filthy, disgusting, blaspheming, power-mad psychopath arch-heretic. The reason Bergoglio is not now and never has been the Pope is because of JOSEPH RATZINGER, Pope Benedict XVI, still reigning.

Joseph Ratzinger’s attempted abdication was INVALID by the law itself, because it was made in SUBSTANTIAL ERROR."

Tell us how you really feel Ann

http://www.barnhardt.biz/2016/11/17/black-guelphs-matterpart1/

Gahrie said...

You didn't answer my question. How does one get to "true repentance" without ever feeling bad?

One doesn't. It's the "true" part I dispute. I find it hard to believe that any Catholic woman who chooses to kill her baby can truly repent. Abortion is an act of commission, rejecting the teachings of your church and knowingly taking the life of your child.

You didn't answer my question:

Do you think Catholic women should be shamed by the Church, priest and congregation, for having an abortion?

mockturtle said...

Mr. Snively, I have read several books both by and about Dietrich Bonhoeffer and admire him greatly. Although not a Lutheran, I am greatly edified by Martin Luther's writings. Calvin is more to my liking pertaining to theology. Neither man, nor any of the other Reformers, would be pleased with the secularism--and agnosticism--that has become 'mainstream' Protestantism.

Robin Eatmon said...

I am not a Catholic (as I said earlier) but my understanding from reading Ann Barnhardt is that the unborn go to Limbo not heaven. How do Priests address this? Why if you are Catholic and considering abortion would you want to doom the unborn to life outside heaven?

Jason said...

I read Calvin. I found him totally depraved.

Paul Snively said...

mockturtle: Neither man, nor any of the other Reformers, would be pleased with the secularism--and agnosticism--that has become 'mainstream' Protestantism.

On that, we are of course in wholehearted agreement!

Anglelyne said...

Gahrie: I find it hard to believe that any Catholic woman who chooses to kill her baby can truly repent.

Are you Catholic? That would be a very odd thing for a Catholic to find hard to believe. Any other categories of sinners make your (heretical, if you're a Catholic) list of the irretrievably damned?

You didn't answer my question:

Sorry, missed it.

Do you think Catholic women should be shamed by the Church, priest and congregation, for having an abortion?

Sorry, I'm not one of those non-believers or non-Catholics who thinks they get some sort of democratic say in how the Roman Catholic Church ought to run itself.

I'd say that even somebody who considers himself a Catholic, but believes that abortion is an unforgivable sin, probably ought to get up to speed on some basic theology before proferring advice on the subject, too.

(Even if your theology were sound, it'd still be kinda hard to keep someone around to serve as a salutary warning against sin, if you're going to insist that they're hopelessly damned. Not like the good old days, when people couldn't just bugger off to another church or a secular life if the got on the outs with the Church.)

As someone who was raised Catholic - old school, Latin mass, etc. - I don't recall this official public shaming you're slavering for to have been A Thing among Catholics. Social consequences for bad behavior that came to public light, sure. But I don't recall anyone being publicly, officially, personally shamed by "Church, priest, and congregation" for any sins. What, you think back in the day that parishioners who confessed to a theft, an abortion, an adulterous liaison, or worse, to a priest in the confessional would later be singled out and publicly shamed from the pulpit? (Though that is the sort of thing we imagined went on in the crazier Protestant denominations.)

Freeman Hunt said...

I'm surprised they weren't allowed to do it before

Freeman Hunt said...

Murder is not and was not on the list of sins that automatically excommunicate a person.

Mark said...

In the United States, this is nothing new. Throughout this country, priests have had the faculty to offer sacramental absolution in cases of being involved in abortion for many, many years, rather than it being a matter reserved to the bishop.

The reason it was reserved to the bishop -- and the reason for the imposition of automatic excommunication -- was not punitive, but remedial. It was intended to signify gravity and extent of the post-abortive healing that is necessary and thereby make sure that such pastoral care was provided. If ordinary parish priests can provide that pastoral care -- and in this country it has long been understood they can -- then there is no reason not to extend the faculty to them to do so.

Other countries, however, might have had a different experience and level of competency by regular priests.

Mark said...

The Church for many decades has offered post-abortion healing in its Project Rachael ministry and other initiatives.

Mark said...

Of course the Church's response to the grave evil of abortion is not condemnation, but healing and reconciliation. And that forgiveness does not come cheap. It was for things like this that Jesus bothered to be scourged, hang on a Cross, and die a horrible death.

The evil does not simply disappear as if it never happened. Like other sins -- including other every day sins that I and you commit all the time and which necessarily injure our relationship with God, God who is life itself -- Jesus Christ takes this evil and the death that comes with it and places it upon himself. He takes the justice upon Himself.

Unfortunately, the Cross and the forgiveness of sins is a stumbling block for many.

readering said...

Always looking for an excuse to link to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

Meanwhile, always confused when people who should consider themselves on the same side get into sqabbling over fine distinctions.

Paul said...

Been my impression priest always had the ability to forgive anyone who got an abortion (procured, self administered, or whatever.)

If not, when did that change?

mockturtle said...

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus."
I Timothy 2:5.

coupe said...
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coupe said...
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Andrew Pardue said...

Robin Eatmon
I am not a Catholic (as I said earlier) but my understanding from reading Ann Barnhardt is that the unborn go to Limbo not heaven. How do Priests address this? Why if you are Catholic and considering abortion would you want to doom the unborn to life outside heaven?


That has never been a matter of official church teaching. The idea of limbo was a matter of theological speculation going back to Aquinas. Because St Thomas is held in such high esteem and the Church hadn't issued any official teaching many Catholics both clergy and laymen taught his speculation as if it was dogma. Since the 2nd Vatican Counsel is that their fate is submitted with hope to the infinite mercy of God. (Catechism of the Catholic Church CCC 1992 1261

Anyone writing on the teaching of the Catholic Church, since 1994, who doesn't or can't site the CCC either doesn't know what they are talking about, are misinformed, or their lying.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Objectively, this cannot but increase the number of abortions among Catholic women. Therefore, wow.

Not my circus, not my monkeys.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Now, I should probably keep my mouth shut, because I'm not a Catholic and I don't have a dog in the fight.

But just on the face of it, to someone not versed in your Mysteries, it really seems like Bergoglio must have been sent by the Devil Himself to destroy the Catholic Church.

Is there really nothing you can do about this guy? Haven't you had bad Popes before?

Mac McConnell said...

A Catholic Priest can't absolve anyone's sins if that person isn't truly in their heart of heart's sorry for those sins. Besides it's not the Priest who is forgiving the sin, the Priest is there for help and guidance in making the act of contrition.

Fen said...

Fuck the Pope. Marxist scum. And I'm done defending Catholicism. They are the reason we decided to have separation of church and state to begin with. Because when Rome fell, the establishment simply hijacked Christianity and their corrupt officials just moved into "church" offices instead.

Lecturing us about gun control while surrounded by armed body guards. Lecturing us about illegal immigration from behind the safety of fortified walls 60 feet high. Lecturing us about the poor as we are blinded by all the gold accessories that litter the vatican.

Fuck the pope. Cersei Lannister got one thing right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KbvDvc-WFE

Jeff said...

Besides it's not the Priest who is forgiving the sin, the Priest is there for help and guidance in making the act of contrition.

That is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. The Church says that these two verses mean it is the priest who decides what is forgiven and what is not forgiven:

"Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 18:18)

"‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23).

Unless you think they translated it wrong, it seems pretty clear. I am not a believer, but I was raised a Catholic, and I do remember a few things we were taught.

Anglelyne said...

Bad Lieutenant: Objectively, this cannot but increase the number of abortions among Catholic women. Therefore, wow.

...

But just on the face of it, to someone not versed in your Mysteries, it really seems like Bergoglio must have been sent by the Devil Himself to destroy the Catholic Church.

Your opinion of Francis the Talking Pope couldn't be lower than my own, but all this "OMG Catholic women are going to get more abortions now because the Pope, like, totally changed the rules and now they can get absolution from the Church for their sin" is just silly. (What, you think the Church has heretofore taught that women who get abortions are irredeemably damned or something?)

At least one Catholic in this thread who knows what he's talking about has tried to explain how this interpretation is the usual "MSM interpreting through the lens of their bottomless ignorance about Church doctrine". There is no "wow" here. People really should know better than to take these breathless reports about alleged "changes" in Church doctrine at face value.

Though I'd agree that Pope Hippie probably is the anti-Christ.

Bad Lieutenant said...

A, I already confessed my ignorance, but I cannot possibly imagine how this would reduce the number of abortions and it seems really unlikely that it would stay the same. If you have an idea on that, please share.